0:00

Hi, I'm Rachel Sherriff

0:00

and welcome to the fertility

0:03

suites podcast. Our aim is to

0:03

educate and empower couples who

0:07

are struggling with all aspects

0:07

of fertility by giving you the

0:10

information to make informed

0:10

decisions along the way. We've

0:14

had a little rebrand since

0:14

series one, we were formerly the

0:16

fertility method podcast. But in

0:16

this second series, Mr. Short,

0:20

we still have the same high

0:20

standard of fertility experts

0:23

coming to share their knowledge

0:23

and support you. So if you are

0:26

struggling with fertility,

0:26

miscarriage or you just want to

0:29

arm yourself with the facts,

0:29

then this podcast is for you.

0:34

Hi, everybody, and welcome back

0:34

to another episode of the

0:36

fertility suite podcast. This

0:36

week, we have Andrew Coots

0:40

joining us and Andrew is the

0:40

founder of the International

0:43

fertility company. This is a

0:43

company that helps people to

0:47

find IVF clinics abroad and

0:47

support them through that

0:51

process. So, Andrew, I'm going

0:51

to hand over to you and you can

0:54

elaborate on that and introduce

0:54

yourself a little bit further.

0:57

Okay, thank you very much, Rachel. Thank you for the invitation. So my name is Andrew

0:59

Coots, and I founded the

1:05

International fertility company.

1:05

Six years ago, now, I am a

1:11

former fertility patient myself,

1:11

or be it in the dim and distant

1:15

past. But my wife and I had

1:15

struggles we were trying to

1:21

conceive for eight years before

1:21

we were finally successful.

1:26

After that experience, I then

1:26

started to do some work for the

1:31

patients Association fertility

1:31

network UK, and worked for them

1:35

for five years. And working

1:35

mostly with UK fertility

1:41

clinics, visiting them, looking

1:41

at them from a patient's

1:46

perspective, and then reporting

1:46

back to patients and giving

1:50

feedback, sharing feedback. And

1:50

then about two or three years

1:54

into that work, I was invited to

1:54

a clinic in Spain, and really

1:59

was really shocked by the

1:59

differences that I've

2:02

experienced between that

2:02

particular clinic and some of

2:05

the clinics not all of them, but

2:05

some of the clinics that visited

2:07

in the UK. And then really had

2:07

my eyes opened in the fact that

2:12

people were at that point, we're

2:12

travelling for treatments, to

2:16

various different countries for

2:16

different treatments. And I

2:19

really didn't have a great deal

2:19

of knowledge of that particular

2:21

time. So I'd spent another two

2:21

years I suppose you just looking

2:26

at sort of Central Europe. And

2:26

then five or six years ago

2:30

realised that the demand seemed

2:30

to be increasing, we was

2:34

certainly getting more and more

2:34

contacts from individuals and

2:38

couples who were asking

2:38

questions about travelling for

2:40

treatments. So I then decided to

2:40

invest more time in terms of

2:45

visiting different countries.

2:45

And the last six or seven years

2:49

or so I've spent sort of

2:49

visiting probably about 300

2:53

clinics now, I would say, and

2:53

decided then that it was a good

2:58

opportunity, perhaps to develop

2:58

a specific platform that would

3:03

enable people to get more

3:03

information and access clinics

3:09

in in different countries, but

3:09

not only Europe, but further

3:12

afield. So clinics in the US in

3:12

the Middle East, in India, for

3:18

instance. And the the

3:18

international fertility company

3:21

basically exists therefore to

3:21

provide information and advice

3:26

to anyone who may be considering

3:26

travelling for treatment. We

3:31

don't necessarily say it's the

3:31

best option for everyone. And

3:36

it's not, but it's certainly

3:36

another option to consider.

3:42

So you are the person that knows

3:42

probably the most about

3:45

fertility clinics that I've ever

3:45

spoken to them. By the sounds of

3:48

it, you've been through a lot.

3:48

You've been through a lot, my

3:50

eyes widened when you when you

3:50

said you've seen 300 clinics. So

3:53

if I was part of a couple then

3:53

who was considering IVF. And I'm

3:58

looking at my options, like what

3:58

would you say are the benefits

4:02

to going abroad for IVF? If you

4:02

had to pick like the key

4:05

benefits, what would they be?

4:05

Yeah,

4:08

I think we'd sort of take a

4:08

little step back and then and

4:12

just sort of have a look at the

4:12

people who are looking for

4:15

treatment abroad. So it's we

4:15

have, I would say the vast

4:19

majority of people that come to

4:19

us from the UK are looking for

4:24

donation treatment. And that

4:24

with that sort of treatment, the

4:29

vast majority are looking at

4:29

places like Spain, Greece,

4:32

Cyprus, we get another group of

4:32

people who are perhaps younger

4:37

who are looking for IVF

4:37

treatment using their own eggs

4:42

and sperm. And then we've got

4:42

another group of people who are

4:45

looking to access surrogacy

4:45

programmes. So we've got three

4:50

defined groups, I suppose, of

4:50

people who are looking for

4:53

specific treatments. And based

4:53

on their treatment requirements,

4:57

there's sort of the reasons why

4:57

they they travel lot are

5:00

different. I would say for the

5:00

majority of people cost is a

5:04

major consideration. And that's

5:04

been increasingly so over the

5:10

over, certainly since it just

5:10

came out of the COVID pandemic.

5:14

So, so cost yes is definitely a

5:14

major concern. The other one is

5:21

access, and that that may be

5:21

access to a particular

5:24

treatment, which isn't available

5:24

in the country of residence for

5:28

someone, it may be that they're

5:28

excluded from treatment in their

5:32

own country because of their

5:32

age, because of their PMI, just

5:38

basically, because of the low

5:38

numbers of donors within that

5:41

country. So so access is another

5:41

issue. And also, I suppose,

5:47

particularly again, in the UK,

5:47

one of the major considerations

5:51

is the speed at which the person

5:51

can access treatment. So for the

5:57

vast majority of clinics that

5:57

are in the private sector,

6:00

outside of the UK, there are no

6:00

waiting lists, or if you're

6:04

going for donor treatment, the

6:04

way to the waiting period is a

6:07

lot shorter than it would be in

6:07

the UK, for instance.

6:12

There are there big cost cost

6:12

differences, then like what can

6:15

you quote numbers like what sort

6:15

of money would you be looking to

6:18

save? On? I know, that's a

6:18

really difficult question to

6:21

answer when you've got variables

6:21

like donation of eggs or sperm

6:24

involved. But like for a basic

6:24

IVF cycle, like what would you

6:28

be looking to save going

6:28

forward, what would be like the

6:30

minimum saving you might make,

6:32

of course, so I mean, the latest

6:32

research they've seen, in terms

6:37

of average costs for an IVF

6:37

cycle in the UK, and this take

6:41

into consideration IVF eggs and

6:41

sperm and donation treatment

6:47

comes out around about 14,000

6:47

pounds pouring in for an

6:51

individual or couple who want to

6:51

access it. If you're looking at

6:55

Central Europe, for donation

6:55

treatment that could cost

6:59

anywhere between six and 10,000

6:59

pounds for IVF own eggs and

7:04

sperm that can anywhere between

7:04

3006 1000 pounds. So potentially

7:10

you you're saving, potentially,

7:10

you're saving up to 50% on the

7:15

actual cycle costs. The other

7:15

consideration is things like

7:19

medication. So in Europe, again,

7:19

we're accessing medication

7:26

costs, which are 25% of the cost

7:26

of medications in the UK. So

7:32

aside from saving on the actual

7:32

treatment cycle itself, and

7:37

there's quite big savings that

7:37

can be made on medication costs.

7:42

Yeah, medication costs can be

7:42

huge, right? If you're a highly

7:45

medicated cycle, in terms of

7:45

lots of add ons, sorts of, you

7:48

know, clexane, they leave your

7:48

injections, all those sorts of

7:51

things, they're not cheap,

7:51

right? So actually, that's

7:54

actually blowing my mind a little bit that you could potentially be saving up to like

7:55

70 75% on a full treatment, if

8:00

not more, maybe on a full

8:00

treatment cycle. That is a lot

8:04

of money, especially at the

8:04

moment, then, you know,

8:07

everything's super expensive

8:07

already. And then couples who

8:10

are struggling and then having

8:10

to find money for private IVF,

8:12

because of those access issues

8:12

that you've talked about. What

8:16

would be like you talked about

8:16

the benefits of having IVF

8:22

abroad in relation to different

8:22

scenarios. So just wanted to go

8:24

back and talk a little bit about

8:24

about a donor scenario. What

8:27

would why would someone who was

8:27

considering donor eggs or sperm

8:32

be benefited, would benefit from

8:32

having IVF aboard what really is

8:36

there to gain there? And that is a little bit of a naive question, because it's not an

8:38

area that I actually know a lot

8:41

about. But it would be good to

8:41

help listeners because maybe

8:44

they're in the same position. Yeah, of course. So I think probably one

8:45

of the main reasons again for UK

8:50

patients who who are considering

8:50

travelling for treatment,

8:54

particularly in countries like

8:54

Greece and Spain, who are having

8:59

to have donation treatment, that

8:59

the big difference between those

9:03

countries in the UK is in the

9:03

UK, you have a non anonymous

9:09

donors. So the couples of the

9:09

subsequent child born from

9:16

donation treatment can find out

9:16

details about donors when they

9:20

reach an appropriate age. For a

9:20

lot of people who have to go

9:26

down the donor route. They want

9:26

to have anonymous donors. So

9:33

they go to places like Spain,

9:33

for instance, Greece and Cyprus

9:37

that have a pools of donors who

9:37

whose details are remain

9:42

anonymous. So they access that

9:42

those for for those reasons. And

9:48

that's the last event benefit, right?

9:49

That's a big that's a big factor

9:51

when you're considering donation

9:51

was probably the main factor.

9:55

I'm sure it is certainly the

9:55

main factor for we've we for UK

9:59

pay Since the other one is at

9:59

games go back to accessibility.

10:05

We, historically in the UK,

10:05

we've had quite low numbers of

10:09

both male and female donors. You

10:09

go to somewhere somewhere like

10:15

Spain, I keep mentioning Spain,

10:15

because for for Central Europe,

10:19

at least, Spain is sort of the

10:19

hub for international patients.

10:25

So more patients travel to

10:25

Spain, and more donor. Donor

10:30

treatments are carried out in

10:30

Spain and in any other European

10:33

country. But in Spain, for

10:33

instance, you have large pools

10:37

of male and female donors, and

10:37

other countries similarly have

10:41

got larger numbers of donors. So

10:41

it's far easier to access

10:48

treatment if you're having to

10:48

rely on a donor if you go to

10:51

those countries, whereas in the UK, you could be waiting

10:53

months to even get the access to

10:56

the to the edge of the spam. And

10:56

then you've got the anonymous

10:59

issue as well, that you

10:59

discussed. Okay. So there's huge

11:02

benefits. And there are

11:02

benefits.

11:04

I mean, I mean, what is the the

11:04

sort of the negatives I suppose

11:08

for for people, I mean, the not

11:08

the anonymity issue, works well

11:13

for some people. So if people

11:13

want to have anonymous donors,

11:17

they can go to those European

11:17

countries, for instance. But

11:20

equally, they are then

11:20

restricted in terms of the

11:24

information that's given to them

11:24

about the donors themselves. So

11:29

the clinics will go through the

11:29

appropriate tests. So they will

11:32

make sure that any donors are

11:32

physically healthy, genetically

11:36

healthy, psychologically

11:36

healthy, and you will get as a

11:41

patient will get sort of

11:41

minimum. Minimum descriptions of

11:48

the donors themselves might be

11:48

the hair colour or eye colour.

11:52

But you won't get sort of the

11:52

sort of huge amount of

11:55

information or any identifiable

11:55

information about the donor. So

11:59

that's a sort of a negative in

11:59

in that sense. And that's why

12:02

patients, for instance, travel

12:02

all the way to the US where,

12:08

where those sorts of information

12:08

about donors are readily

12:10

available. So it is a bit of a

12:10

sort of a mixed bag, there's the

12:16

NEMA T question, really. So one

12:16

hand, if you're looking for a

12:21

number of stoners, you've got

12:21

you've got your up on your

12:23

doorstep. But if you do want

12:23

some additional information, you

12:27

know, that's restricted in that

12:27

sense. Okay.

12:30

So if we take the donor side of

12:30

things out of the equation, so

12:35

if couples are looking to travel

12:35

abroad, using their own

12:37

excellent their own sperm, what

12:37

would be the potential pitfalls

12:41

or downfalls of then having IPF

12:41

aboard? Obviously, like that

12:45

cost saving? is big. Right. So

12:45

there's going to have to be

12:48

something like to change you on

12:48

that. Is there anything? Yeah,

12:53

I mean, if we take out the sort

12:53

of the, the distance between

12:58

home, home and abroad,

12:58

essentially, the clinic should

13:03

find outside of the UK, are no

13:03

different in many respects to

13:07

the clinics, you'd find in the

13:07

UK, you know, they're good ones,

13:10

bad ones, and indifferent ones.

13:10

And obviously, there are sort of

13:14

associated problems with with

13:14

with each of those. But the main

13:18

differences, obviously, a few

13:18

are in the UK, for instance, is

13:22

when you make that initial

13:22

contact with with a clinic, it's

13:25

not sometimes it's not possible

13:25

to physically go into a clinic,

13:28

for instance, and have a good

13:28

look. And that's something that

13:32

we would always recommend, if at

13:32

all possible that a patient

13:35

does, that they actually go in

13:35

and physically see the

13:39

environment in which they're

13:39

going to be treated. So that's,

13:42

that's potentially negative in

13:42

the first instance. And that's

13:45

why we always recommend that

13:45

people we can talk about this

13:48

later, but a patient spends a

13:48

lot of time in terms of sort of

13:52

considering an appropriate

13:52

clinic to go to, but I suppose

13:55

that's one of the main main

13:55

issues is the the inability

13:59

sometimes to actually physically

13:59

go into to a clinic. In terms of

14:04

other negative points, some of

14:04

the best clinics now have been

14:08

working for 20 years plus in

14:08

terms of bringing in

14:13

international clinic,

14:13

international patients, and

14:15

they're so well set up equally

14:15

as well as some of the UK

14:20

clinics. So in terms of

14:20

communication, there's not

14:24

usually any problems in terms of

14:24

sort of finding English speaking

14:28

stuff. usually find a lot of the

14:28

International clinics because

14:33

they they have to work quite

14:33

hard in terms of marketing and

14:36

making sure that they provide a

14:36

good level of service and

14:40

patient centred care to to their

14:40

customers. They so they do

14:45

invest heavily in terms of the

14:45

environment that they offer to

14:49

patients. And this is one of the

14:49

things that really struck me

14:52

when I first went to the clinic

14:52

in Spain. A lot of them look

14:57

very different to the clinics.

14:57

We find in the UK, particularly

15:03

the clinics, unfortunately, in

15:03

the NHS, you know that not had

15:08

the investment made in them. But

15:08

they look differently, they have

15:13

to work that much harder to

15:13

recruit patients, they're really

15:17

relying on good feedback. So

15:17

they're really well set up in

15:21

terms of sort of promoting

15:21

themselves and ensuring that the

15:24

patients get the best possible

15:24

care. And the best possible

15:28

experience was, it's almost a bit more

15:30

competitive, like they have to up their game, right. So they're

15:32

on the ball with things like that. Okay. So it's interesting,

15:34

like, obviously, I've had people

15:38

go through the clinic, having

15:38

therapy with me that have had

15:41

IVF aboard. And I think what

15:41

I've noticed is that actually,

15:45

talking about the logistics

15:45

travel side of things and going

15:48

into clinic, it often depends on

15:48

what people do for a living,

15:50

like the patients that have

15:50

found having IVF abroad are

15:53

relatively seamless and stress

15:53

free. Time for them, within

15:57

reason, have been the ones that

15:57

are maybe self employed, or have

16:00

a bit more flexibility with

16:00

their hours, they're able to

16:03

work from anywhere, you know,

16:03

they'll go and rent an Airbnb

16:06

close by to the clinic make a

16:06

bit of a holiday or it. But

16:09

other people, that's just not an

16:09

issue, or, you know, it involves

16:11

taking two weeks off work that

16:11

has to be timed very carefully.

16:15

So I think it's a very

16:15

individual choice, right. And we

16:18

can talk about pros and cons.

16:18

But actually, it comes back to

16:21

what's right for that patient,

16:21

which I know is part of what you

16:24

do is like matching people up

16:24

with clinics will come and talk

16:26

about that. But I think, yes,

16:26

there's so many variables,

16:29

right. So definitely, definitely. And

16:30

as I said at the beginning,

16:33

release it you know, it's not

16:33

suitable for for everyone. It's

16:37

just a different option. Yeah.

16:40

And what would be like the main

16:40

countries? So you've mentioned

16:42

Spain, like, where else? Is

16:42

there that is top of the list?

16:46

Or in terms of like, Are there

16:46

countries that are better for

16:50

certain things? You mentioned

16:50

Spain in relation to egg and

16:53

sperm donation? Are there other

16:53

countries that specialise in

16:56

different areas? And it might sound like a bit of a silly question, but it's kind of just

16:57

something has popped into my head. Yeah,

17:00

of course. So Spain, as I

17:00

mentioned, has got probably the

17:05

longest track record in terms of

17:05

donor treatments, it receives

17:09

more doughnut patients. You've

17:09

got countries like the Czech

17:15

Republic, Cyprus, both north and

17:15

south, and Greece, who are very

17:20

competitive in terms of price.

17:20

So those countries, if you're

17:25

looking for sort of cheaper

17:25

cycles, those are countries to

17:29

look at, with the with the with

17:29

the word warning in terms of the

17:37

sort of the legalities in

17:37

different countries. So the

17:39

Czech Republic, for instance, is

17:39

great in terms of price, but it

17:45

will only accept married

17:45

heterosexual couples, for

17:48

instance. So there's that you

17:48

said, there are lots of

17:51

variables between countries as

17:51

well. But essentially, somewhere

17:56

like the Czech Republic is good

17:56

in terms of price. You get other

18:00

countries like North Cyprus, for

18:00

instance, which has more liberal

18:04

legislation, and its provides a

18:04

more flexible service for older

18:10

patients. So for instance, in

18:10

Northern Cyprus, there's a,

18:14

there's not really a ceiling on

18:14

an upper age for female

18:19

patients. So most clinics work

18:19

on a clinic by clinic basis. So

18:24

if you if you're an older woman

18:24

looking for treatment, North

18:28

Cyprus might be a better option.

18:28

Say for instance, something

18:31

somewhere like Spain, which has

18:31

a fixed ceiling on age, you then

18:37

you've got countries like

18:37

Norway, and a lot of UK, couples

18:41

actually go to Norway. Because

18:41

Oh, for IVF with own eggs and

18:47

own sperm, that's a that's a

18:47

really popular destination for

18:52

UK couples, or is becoming one

18:52

because of cost. And because of

18:56

success rates. Their success

18:56

rates are very good. Well,

19:00

why is I my head, I kind of

19:00

think Scandinavia equals

19:03

expensive, you know, like, the

19:03

standard idea about something,

19:08

but also Yeah, why their success

19:08

rates higher, you don't mind

19:11

paying if you're going to have

19:11

success, right?

19:14

So again, whereas Spain, for

19:14

instance, heavily concentrated

19:18

on donor treatments, you know,

19:18

that's become their, their

19:21

niche, and historically, they've

19:21

worked with patients who've got

19:25

quite challenging histories. So

19:25

they they've sort of developed a

19:29

niche, they're in someone like

19:29

Norway. They don't offer

19:33

donation treatments. So they've

19:33

developed this sort of Nisshin

19:37

IVF of own egg and sperm. And

19:37

they've got a there's a couple

19:40

of really good clinics in

19:40

Norway, for instance, we've got

19:43

long track records, you were

19:43

very good success rates. And

19:48

they've always consistently

19:48

brought in patients from places

19:51

like Germany and Eastern Europe,

19:51

but it certainly over the last

19:55

two or three years more and more

19:55

UK patients are sort of looking

19:58

at no way in particular in other

19:58

Scandinavian countries, some

20:03

Scandinavian countries are

20:03

expensive. But Norway seems to

20:07

stand out as offering some some

20:07

competitive prices.

20:11

What's really interesting, I'm sure a lot of people listening well, you know, when I'll be

20:13

Googling Norway for IVF? Yeah,

20:19

sure. What about further afield?

20:19

Like you talked about the states

20:22

anywhere else, like what would

20:22

be the benefits because

20:25

obviously, then you're looking at more travel costs. You are. So on one side, you get

20:28

places like the Middle East, and

20:35

one or two clinics now in

20:35

Northern Cyprus who offer gender

20:39

selection. So So if so, you

20:39

know, a couple were specifically

20:45

looking to have treatment and a

20:45

child of a particular gender,

20:51

they would look to someone like

20:51

the Middle East, for instance.

20:54

And they would go in that

20:54

direction. There's one or two

20:58

clinics in North Cyprus now that

20:58

offer donor treatment with known

21:04

donors, and they give more

21:04

information. So as I mentioned,

21:07

that you're restricted in some

21:07

European countries, North

21:10

Cyprus, there's a pocket of

21:10

clinics now the author, like the

21:14

American model, where patients

21:14

can find out a lot more details

21:18

about a particular donor, then

21:18

you've got the US. That seems to

21:23

be that's not very popular for

21:23

UK patients who are looking for

21:27

donor treatment, or IVF, with

21:27

omega and sperm. Because it's so

21:32

much more expensive than the UK,

21:32

you're probably looking at at

21:37

least double the price of a UK

21:37

cycle in the US. So but the US

21:43

is very popular for couples who

21:43

are looking to access surrogacy

21:47

programmes. Again, they've

21:47

developed a long track record,

21:53

there's a number of surrogacy

21:53

agencies in the US who have got

21:57

established track records. So

21:57

people do travel to the US, and

22:02

increasingly places like South

22:02

America as well for surrogacy.

22:06

Okay, so again, it's that that

22:06

individual scenario, but it's

22:09

good to know there's options

22:09

further afield. And, again, you

22:11

never know what someone's situation is, if you've got family in the states that might

22:13

make the travel and the whole

22:16

experience cheaper and less

22:16

stress free. So it really is,

22:20

like unique to the individuals,

22:20

isn't it? And you talked a

22:24

little bit about, like how

22:24

clinics have to be a bit more

22:27

competitive, and they've

22:27

marketed themselves and you

22:29

know, the experience of walking

22:29

in the clinic door probably

22:32

aesthetically is better. And you

22:32

may begin to feel you're not on

22:36

that hamster wheel that you

22:36

might get in certain UK based

22:40

clinics. But in terms of like

22:40

clinical outcomes, statistics,

22:45

like the actual care level, what

22:45

sort of feedback are you

22:49

getting? And are there any stats

22:49

around that? And what can people

22:53

expect clinically? Like? Can you

22:53

expect to get access to more up

22:58

to date meds or more up to date

22:58

protocols in terms of the actual

23:02

cycle itself? Yeah, again, I think with this,

23:04

this is specifically for for UK

23:08

patients. But if you're doing

23:08

some comparative work between UK

23:12

clinics and ours, I wouldn't say

23:12

all of the non UK clinics, but

23:17

the best non UK clinics who've

23:17

got good international

23:22

departments, there's not a huge

23:22

difference in terms of success

23:26

rates. For instance, there is a

23:26

difference between success rates

23:30

when you look at donor

23:30

treatments. And that's again,

23:35

because of the larger numbers of

23:35

cycles that are undertaken by

23:39

non UK clinics, the younger age

23:39

of donors, and that has an

23:46

effect on the actual success

23:46

rate. So there is a difference

23:49

between success rates in terms

23:49

of donor treatments. There isn't

23:52

a huge difference in terms of

23:52

success rates for Onega, unknown

23:57

sperm. So success rates. There's

23:57

minimal differences, I would

24:02

say. So it's more of an access

24:02

more of a cost. difference, I

24:07

think between the two in terms

24:07

of the clinical standards,

24:10

again, most of the better. Non

24:10

UK clinics have got ever sort of

24:16

achieved quality standards

24:16

accreditation, so they've gone

24:21

through that whole process of

24:21

making sure that their labs are

24:25

working to a sufficient

24:25

standard. They provide high

24:30

levels of patient centred care.

24:30

They're externally and

24:35

independently audited, like UK

24:35

clinics would be. So again, in

24:39

places like Greece and Spain,

24:39

their ministry of health,

24:44

maintain independent statistics

24:44

about different clinic

24:50

performance and success rates

24:50

that are monitored like our UK

24:55

clinics are as well. So in terms

24:55

of sort of Patient Care that

25:01

that sense in clinical

25:01

standards, there's not a huge

25:05

amount of difference. I would

25:05

say we have had negative

25:08

feedback from some patients who

25:08

go to certain countries and

25:12

certain clinics. And that mean,

25:12

it's mainly to do with

25:15

communication. So it hasn't been

25:15

to do with complaints about the

25:21

clinical standards or protocols.

25:21

The main complaint is if they go

25:26

to a clinic, or a country based

25:26

purely on cost, for instance,

25:32

and they've come away, and

25:32

they've had unsuccessful

25:34

treatment. And there's been

25:34

communication issues between the

25:37

patient and the clinics, and

25:37

that and I think that's why, you

25:40

know, when you choose a clinic,

25:40

you've really got to look at the

25:43

whole picture. You don't

25:43

necessarily just go for a cost.

25:47

But communication in Yes, key.

25:47

Yeah. Yeah,

25:51

there's a service called

25:51

fertility Bappa, you've probably

25:53

seen it, it's like a fertility

25:53

clinic review service, and I was

25:56

having a good look through. And what I found was really interesting is that people are

25:58

reviewing clinics, not

26:01

necessarily based on the

26:01

pregnancy outcome based on their

26:04

experience and the process

26:04

throughout. So you've got people

26:07

who had had a negative pregnancy

26:07

outcome, and we're reviewing the

26:11

clinic and stowing them a really

26:11

good review, because they felt

26:14

like they were so well cared

26:14

for, and well looked after and

26:16

communicated to. And then you've

26:16

got people who had a positive

26:19

pregnancy outcome, what we're

26:19

still giving clinics, or reviews

26:22

because of their experience

26:22

throughout, which just goes to

26:25

show like how important

26:25

communication and care is when

26:28

you're with a fertility clinic.

26:28

Like I think for a lot of

26:31

people, obviously, the outcome

26:31

is important, but it's not until

26:33

you're in it that you

26:33

understand, you know, and like

26:36

yourself, I had IVF. So you

26:36

really understand that, like how

26:39

important that care is when

26:39

you're in the cycle. So yeah,

26:43

it's really and I think what you

26:43

pointed out about the clinical

26:46

standards, and safety is also

26:46

really important, because a lot

26:51

of people listening, maybe

26:51

considering IVF, maybe they are

26:54

thinking, Oh, I'm not quite sure

26:54

about the standards abroad, you

26:57

know, are they as safe and, you

26:57

know, we're lucky enough to have

27:00

the hfpa in the UK governing

27:00

everything. But it's really

27:02

reassuring, I think, for people

27:02

to understand that there is

27:05

similar in other countries, and

27:05

that they are regulated and

27:08

everything is safe. And

27:08

obviously the lab is a big part

27:11

of IVF. You know, as we're

27:11

recording this, there has been

27:14

something in the news actually

27:14

about a big IVF clinic in the

27:17

UK, where there's been some

27:17

errors in the lab, which have

27:19

led to, you know, loss of

27:19

embryos and loss of eggs for

27:23

people. Now, that is obviously a

27:23

concern, right, you put your

27:26

trust in clinics, and I think it

27:26

I know if I was considering IVF

27:30

aboard, that would be something

27:30

that would pop into my head. So

27:32

that is really, really

27:32

reassuring, I think for

27:35

listeners to hear that that's

27:35

not the case.

27:39

Yeah, I think. And this is why,

27:39

one of the reasons why I set up

27:44

IFC. But there are another a

27:44

number of other agencies that

27:49

provide sort of independent

27:49

advice as well. And that's why

27:51

it's important for anyone,

27:51

before they make that final

27:55

decision about clinic. Or even

27:55

in the early stages, they come

27:59

to someone like us that have

27:59

experience, particularly in the

28:04

on the legal side as well. So we

28:04

can we can provide legal advice,

28:10

I should say, but before

28:10

becoming patient. I qualified as

28:15

a solicitor in the UK. So we

28:15

again, it's important for me to

28:21

be able to provide that sort of

28:21

legal framework, advice about

28:24

different countries, and equally

28:24

other independent organisations

28:29

have that service as well. So

28:29

it's vitally important for

28:33

prospective patients to to seek

28:33

that information out before they

28:36

even sort of sign up for any

28:36

sort of

28:39

treatment. Yeah, that's not

28:39

that's not something that

28:42

perhaps would have entered my head. So yeah, it's good. Good to know, I think. Yeah, so let's

28:43

talk a little bit more about

28:46

your company then and how you,

28:46

like if I was looking for an IVF

28:50

clinic or board, where would I

28:50

start? And how do you help

28:53

people? What do you guys do?

28:53

Yep. So

28:56

so that, again, a step back from

28:56

us. There's lots of sort of

28:59

different platforms that people

28:59

can can access. Now. Obviously,

29:04

the you know, the standard

29:04

Google search, sometimes is a

29:08

good place to start. I've spoken

29:08

to patients who've said, it's

29:11

not a great place to start,

29:11

because there's so much choice.

29:14

And it's so difficult to

29:14

different differentiate between

29:17

clinics. And that just causes

29:17

too much anxiety even more

29:22

frustration, because, you know,

29:22

who do you trust when you do

29:25

when you do a search like that,

29:25

but certainly, you know, have a

29:28

look at different clinics go to

29:28

their websites. There's lots of

29:33

different forums which exist,

29:33

but with a proviso when you are

29:38

joining a forum. Think about the

29:38

people that are also in the

29:43

forum because you get people

29:43

that may also be in the same

29:47

situation that occurred looking

29:47

for advice about a specific

29:51

country or clinic, but you also

29:51

get people who have been to

29:55

clinics and countries and had

29:55

unsuccessful treatment, who may

29:59

be shy Earning quite negative

29:59

feedback and only negative

30:03

feedback about a particular

30:03

clinic. So potentially you may

30:06

not be getting that independent

30:06

information within those, those

30:10

forums. So and then equally

30:10

there are some not for profit

30:15

organisations here in the UK

30:15

that provides some great advice.

30:20

You've got fertility network UK,

30:20

fertility first, not for profit

30:24

organisations that provide that

30:24

independent advice. And then

30:28

you've got the international

30:28

fertility company. So as I said,

30:32

we provide a range of services

30:32

for clinics, Render, we're

30:37

independent in the sense that we

30:37

do not recommend specific

30:42

countries, we've got a portfolio

30:42

of clinics that we think are

30:45

good in different countries. And

30:45

they are aimed to be a balanced

30:50

portfolio for people looking for

30:50

different types of treatment. We

30:55

provide a free service for

30:55

people who just want

30:58

signposting. So if they come to

30:58

us, and they say, We want this

31:03

type of treatment, and this age,

31:03

we can then point them in the

31:08

direction of a particular

31:08

country or a number of clinics.

31:12

And then we provide a more

31:12

bespoke service to people who

31:16

want a little bit more than

31:16

that, that is a paid service.

31:20

But essentially, that is a

31:20

consultation with ourselves, to

31:26

find out exactly the type of

31:26

treatment that they're looking

31:29

for. We then go away and map

31:29

that against opportunities. So

31:34

we will come back then, with a

31:34

shortlist of countries and

31:38

clinics, will arrange an online

31:38

consultation with each of those

31:42

clinics then speak to the

31:42

patient or patients about their

31:47

own feedback. And then work with

31:47

them on a sort of a step by step

31:51

process, right the way through

31:51

to them accessing treatment,

31:54

even travelling to clinics with

31:54

patients who want that

31:58

reassurance. It's really not holding someone's hand

32:00

through the process, right, which is sometimes what you

32:02

need. Yeah, you've got both

32:05

options, you know, yeah, yeah. As you said, you

32:06

know, some people will be

32:09

confident about travelling,

32:09

some, you know, will need that

32:13

extra support. So that's why

32:13

that service is there.

32:17

So how do people find you then?

32:17

Where are you? How do we get in

32:20

touch with you? So we've got a website is our

32:21

main platform. So that's the IFC

32:26

dots world. We're obviously

32:26

active. Under the the IFC dot

32:32

world on Instagram, and

32:32

Facebook. We also have some

32:36

closed Facebook and messenger

32:36

groups for different countries.

32:41

So for instance, we've got a

32:41

closed Facebook group for people

32:44

specifically interested in

32:44

Spain, one for the Czech

32:48

Republic, one for Greece, one

32:48

for the US. So we've got sort of

32:53

bespoke closed groups for

32:53

patients who want to share

32:57

information about specific

32:57

countries as well.

33:00

Brilliant. Okay, so what I'm

33:00

going to do for anyone listening

33:03

is in the Episode Notes, I'll

33:03

put all those details if you

33:06

want to find Andrew and the

33:06

International fertility company,

33:09

you know, if you're thinking

33:09

about having IVF board, you want

33:11

some more support, or you just

33:11

want to get started, then you

33:14

can contact Andrew using the

33:14

details that I put in the

33:17

Episode Notes. Thank you,

33:17

Andrew. That's been brilliant,

33:20

really informative. And

33:20

hopefully for anyone listening

33:22

who's considering IVF or board,

33:22

we've answered sort of some of

33:25

the key questions. So the

33:25

questions I've asked you were

33:28

things that would come into my

33:28

mind. But equally, if anyone's

33:30

got any questions, I'm sure they

33:30

can pop you an email via the

33:33

website and get in touch. Right.

33:33

Thank

33:35

you very much. Thanks. Thanks so much for

33:36

coming on. Andrew. Nice to see

33:38

you.