0:00

Welcome to the FitFile podcast where you're going

0:02

to hear about anything and everything sports technical

0:04

related, whether that's smart watches, bike computers, bike

0:06

trainers, train wraps, and basically anything that you

0:08

can use to level up your health, fitness,

0:11

and sports game. So I'm Ray of dcrainmaker.com,

0:13

both on YouTube as well as the dcrainmaker.com

0:15

site. And with me, I've got Des of

0:17

DesFit on YouTube. All right, so on this

0:19

week's episode, we're just going to go ahead

0:21

and jump right into it. So we actually

0:23

have a bit more to talk about than

0:25

we thought we were going to have to

0:28

talk about on last week's episode. So this

0:30

week, we're going to talk about the new Apple Vision

0:32

Pro. Zwift and Wahoo came

0:34

out with their Kickr Core Zwift One

0:36

smart bike trainer. And ironically,

0:39

Zwift also announced a big round

0:41

of layoffs along with their co-CEO

0:43

resigning. So I'm just going to go ahead

0:45

and leave it up to you this week in terms of dealer's

0:47

choice. So what do you want to talk about first today? We

0:50

want good news first, bad news first? Yeah,

0:54

let's do good news first.

0:56

Yeah. Okay, so we

0:58

can go Apple Vision Pro or we can

1:00

go Zwift Hub, Wahoo Hub One. Can

1:04

you get it right the first try? Go. Can you get

1:06

the whole name first shot? No do-overs.

1:09

The Wahoo Kickr Core

1:12

Zwift One. Ooh,

1:15

good job. Yeah, I did not nail that

1:17

in my video. Did you? So

1:19

many times I said it wrong. But

1:22

I just I simply shortened it to the

1:24

Wahoo Kickr Core Cog, the

1:26

Core Cog basically. That makes

1:28

more sense, I think. Yeah. So let's just start there.

1:30

So since we've since we're there, we'll start there and we'll

1:33

go to Apple and then from there and back into maybe

1:35

Zwift and then we'll see where we go from there. Yeah,

1:38

sure. So Wahoo announced

1:40

with Zwift their first trainer being

1:43

the Wahoo Kickr Core Zwift One

1:45

trainer as you just nailed. Literally,

1:48

it's like the parents that could not decide on

1:50

a kid's name just decided to give them all

1:52

the names. You

1:56

know, they May have taken

1:58

some cues from Garmin at this point. Ethnic

2:01

Rican reason I know you comes up as

2:03

if point like this is that this is

2:05

almost like old school or we train or

2:07

names like we're talking like hours ago. house

2:09

or newsrooms? yeah mob of the had like

2:11

twenty one. I still have the bus or

2:13

somewhere like a twenty one trainers I had

2:15

any with all these horrendous names or like

2:17

super they were like I was will soon

2:19

don't aim to l yes as I yeah

2:21

yeah yeah Beinart for Nine Barrel Nature are

2:23

stealth or something like that? Yeah exactly Now

2:25

for those Are you not familiar with what

2:27

it is? They've taken it eats One who

2:29

can record trainer. Exactly as it like

2:31

note seen just to that trainer except

2:33

they removed the cassette aunt input on

2:35

the news I swift cog which goes

2:37

on the site that has a single

2:39

card so i just put my Ikea

2:41

plastic bowl demonstration away on by the

2:44

since we imagine like to plastic kids

2:46

bulls and then a single cog in

2:48

the middle meaning a single last on

2:50

a carburetor. A. Single one of

2:52

the use in the middle I'm in. This

2:54

allows you to have a virtual shifting in

2:56

that the idea they're being that's compatible with

2:58

pretty much any bike that you want to

3:00

stick on it as opposed to Er. Up

3:02

until now he saw the trainer, you had

3:04

a cassette on the other, a cassette reached

3:06

by type So and Nine ten, eleven twelve

3:09

speak such. Which means of these companies have

3:11

spent a lot more money. Not only it's

3:13

ah, stocking those big dilemma different scuse and

3:15

whatnot says really greatly simplifies things. And ah,

3:17

this is basically came out of the evolution

3:19

of Swift launching their hub of one. By

3:21

trainer lose like middle last year I believe

3:23

that they launch that the have one so

3:25

that were once in a month. it was

3:27

only four months ago. For. Months ago

3:30

to today for my okay activists,

3:32

the shortest trainer in existence. Die

3:34

spanwise. Oh yeah, we're going talk

3:36

about this whole yeah, we're gonna

3:38

talk about the very very short

3:40

history of the Swift hardware. I

3:42

here for a second to South

3:44

Ossetia. So basically this is the

3:46

evolution legacy could say of the

3:48

hub one where they're basically transferring

3:50

that concept that Swift introduced last

3:52

year to Kicker Trainers. And if

3:54

you're familiar with the whole by

3:56

trainer industry it's You can probably

3:58

see this. coming from mile away

4:00

considering that Zwift and

4:03

Wahoo settled their legal disputes late

4:05

last year. Yeah, once they

4:07

settled that legal dispute, which was over the kicker,

4:10

really over the Zwift hub that started this whole

4:12

thing, emulating the, or according

4:15

to Wahoo, basically infringing on Wahoo's

4:17

patents, once that ball got set in

4:19

motion and then it was settled this past August

4:21

or so, things escalated really quickly

4:24

from a relationship standpoint, right? This went

4:26

from we hate you, we want you

4:28

to burn and die to, yeah,

4:31

hook up tonight, done, right? Like it was, there

4:33

was no wasting time here. We've seen this on

4:35

many different products over the last few months. First,

4:37

it was essentially pricing agreements. That's what

4:39

it was, whether or not they want to call

4:41

it that on their kicker core

4:44

and Zwift hub being the same. Then it was Wahoo

4:46

selling on the Lyft site and then it was, you

4:48

know, step, step, step, step, step from there. Now, the

4:51

kicker, sorry, the Zwift hub is entirely out

4:53

of the picture. They've discontinued that. So

4:55

we can blimp that into this one for now, but they've

4:57

discontinued the Zwift hub series as a

4:59

product, both these Zwift hub classic, which was

5:01

the one that had the cassette built on it, as well as

5:03

these Zwift hub one, which is the one

5:05

with the Zwift cog on it. And

5:08

then from there, the kicker core effectively takes that place.

5:10

The only good news, if you will, out of this

5:12

whole thing, not, in fact, not only good news, but

5:14

the main piece of good news here is that the

5:16

pricing remains exactly the same at $599 US

5:19

dollars, I think also 5.99 euros and the

5:21

Kim Earth pounds is $549 or not. And

5:24

that includes the cog, the trainer as

5:26

well as the years of the Zwift. So at

5:29

the end of the day, after this entire

5:31

legal thing, you effectively got

5:33

a much cheaper Wahoo kicker

5:35

by a couple hundred bucks at

5:38

least, as well as a year as well. So

5:40

you're talking probably like a three to $400 savings

5:43

after this whole thing was done. The

5:45

downside, of course, being that we've reduced the amount of

5:47

competition in the marketplace as a result of that. Yeah.

5:50

Yeah. I think jet black unfortunately is

5:52

kind of a, one

5:54

of the bigger losers in

5:56

this whole legal dispute that's

5:58

happened. I think a

6:00

lot of this is going to just

6:03

lead directly into the other Zwift announcement

6:05

here in just one second. But before

6:07

we get off topic of the actual

6:10

trainer itself though, so let's talk about

6:12

the actual experience using the virtual shifting

6:14

and whatnot. And quite frankly, like how

6:18

excited existing core owners are to

6:20

have this feature as well. So

6:22

this virtual shifting feature, you

6:24

know, first of all, it does eliminate

6:26

from the manufacturer end of things. A

6:29

lot of confusion and a lot of

6:31

stocking of like different cassettes having to

6:33

actually like source all of these and

6:35

install them before they go out the

6:37

door. But it also makes

6:39

it easier for consumers as well where

6:41

they can just order this one trainer

6:43

with this one cog on here. It

6:45

works from any bikes with eight speed

6:48

cassettes all the way up to 12

6:50

speed drivetrains. And it also solves some

6:52

issues when it comes to one by

6:54

drivetrains as well as smaller chain rings

6:56

on bikes. So again, I think what

6:58

was really interesting about this is how

7:00

excited existing kicker owners were to be

7:02

able to get this feature, which is

7:04

cool because they're just going to be

7:06

upgrading the firmware so existing

7:08

kicker core trainers can get this feature in

7:10

the future. Now, what

7:12

does this mean for other kicker trainers

7:14

like the kicker B6, kicker move, stuff

7:17

like that? Yeah, so

7:19

the kicker B6 and the kicker move will

7:21

be getting a firmware update very shortly. They

7:24

didn't want me to tell the exact day it's

7:27

coming out in case something changes at the last

7:29

second. But I would the best

7:31

way I would phrase it is if you went off

7:33

and bought the Zwift play buttons, it might be a

7:35

race as to which arise first. Right. That's probably the

7:38

best way to talk out. So very pretty much imminently

7:40

going to happen for the V6 and

7:42

move because of the same physical trainer. The

7:44

move is simply a V6 mounted on it. And

7:47

then they've also committed to adding the

7:49

same feature to the kicker V4 and the kicker V5.

7:52

The time frame shows those are a bit more muddled. It doesn't

7:54

sound like we're talking like next year or anything like that or

7:56

even later this year, but they're just

7:59

working through that. that firmware process. So

8:01

that's pretty cool to see that virtual shifting

8:03

there. And one of the things you mentioned,

8:05

the benefit of course of having multiple bike

8:08

configurations is multiple users on the same

8:10

trainer, meaning that like in

8:12

front of me, there's a whole plate of bikes

8:14

over there with different configurations. And some of them

8:16

are 12 speed and 11 speed and

8:19

there's even a 10 speed in there and

8:21

two 10 speeds in there. And the idea that

8:23

you could swap between all those without having to

8:25

do anything at all is

8:27

a huge win for people that maybe

8:29

sharing a trainer amongst other users or

8:32

just simply amongst their bike collection. Yeah,

8:34

no, I think when it comes to

8:37

testing trainers, I

8:40

use a normal quick release bike

8:42

for my trainer bike and part

8:45

of our testing process is that we need to test

8:47

different bikes too on the

8:49

trainers for compatibility. And like

8:51

when I went to go put my 12 speed

8:53

Eagle bike on

8:56

any trainer, I'm just like, oh God, I

8:58

don't want to mess around with switching cassette

9:00

bodies and cassettes and all that stuff. So

9:03

this just made it so, so much easier.

9:05

Definitely super easy. Now the downside of this

9:07

whole thing is that it only works with

9:09

Swift, right? Effectively, so there's

9:11

two modes on trainers. It's called

9:14

SIM mode, which is simulation mode,

9:16

basically simulating the ups and downs

9:18

of hills and whatnot, you know, gradient going up 5%,

9:20

down 4%, et cetera. And then

9:22

there's so-called ERG mode, which is

9:24

your structure workout mode. So people think

9:27

ERG mode, may think trainer road, for example, but Swift

9:29

also does ERG mode if you're in one of your

9:31

structural workouts there. So with

9:33

this design, the way you

9:35

shift is using these little click buttons, which are

9:37

just too far to reach to go grab, but

9:39

this little button that goes in your handlebar and

9:41

you can shift up and down using that. You

9:43

don't actually shift using your shifters anymore, you shift

9:45

using the buttons. But the buttons don't actually talk

9:47

to the trainer, they talk to the Swift

9:50

app. And the Swift app then

9:52

effectively simulates what the trainer should

9:54

do from resistance standpoint. So it's all kind of a

9:56

bit of a mind game scene there. But that means

9:58

that you can't use this. with other

10:00

apps that require shifting. So I can

10:02

use the, anyway, can use these

10:04

trainers perfectly fine in earth mode with train road,

10:06

and I did that in review, no problem at

10:08

all there. Um, but if you wanted to use

10:11

it with Indivello or Ruby or mywoosher, even

10:13

wahoo's own system app, um, for the handful

10:15

of pieces of that, that are in SIM

10:17

mode, you actually can't do that. Um, and

10:19

that's a, that's a pretty big. Now

10:23

from the manufacturing or

10:25

manufacturer standpoint, I

10:28

think other manufacturers have to be

10:30

thinking about a menu, uh, like a,

10:32

you know, trainer specific solution, a hardware

10:35

solution to this, because I think, again,

10:37

like, you know, this is becoming, uh,

10:39

a very popular, uh, concept to, to

10:42

be able to have this universal compatibility.

10:44

Yeah, definitely. And so I, you know, something

10:47

I pressed, um, Zwift on

10:49

last year when they announced Zwift hub one, I

10:51

said, what are you going to do? Like myself,

10:54

me, my wife, um, will use the trainer primarily

10:56

and Zwift, um, I use it a lot for

10:59

a trainer road, but she also uses for training

11:01

of races, full gas, um, to simulate the race

11:03

courses. And so in that case, she can't actually

11:05

use this trainer for that. And so the idea

11:07

that we could swap back and forth kind of

11:10

gets, it's sort of shot there. Um,

11:12

so I asked about that and I said there, their goal

11:14

at the time was to be able to allow third party

11:16

apps to eventually tap into that and other companies as well.

11:19

Now, if we fast forward the four months or so, and

11:21

I asked the same question again, and they said, yes, the goal

11:23

now is to do it by the end of the year

11:25

to release a, uh, software development

11:27

kit, API, et cetera, that would allow third

11:29

party apps to go ahead and take advantage

11:32

of that. Um, to me, that

11:34

seems like an awfully long time to,

11:36

to release that. It just just seems

11:38

like a long time for me. Um,

11:40

and given Zwift history of releasing developer

11:42

focused things with that history being effectively

11:44

zero successes. Um, you

11:46

know, over the course of all the things they've promised all

11:49

these years around development standards, none of them have ever come

11:51

true. Um, whether it be, I

11:53

mean, there's, there's a long, long list of

11:55

these things. So I'm a little hesitant on that.

11:57

And That's why my, my general vice with

11:59

this trainer. If you know if you're not sharing

12:01

the trainers and I would personally probably pick up

12:04

on the server core with a custom instead or

12:06

because it gives you the flexibility use any after.

12:08

he won out there so he got one bike

12:10

just pick up that with a cassette that you

12:12

need for that one by one person etc. I'm

12:15

if you're sharing amongst most will buy a different

12:17

types than this. Makes a lot more sense especially

12:19

if is left only but I just wish we

12:21

would see better club or a snare from an

12:24

industry standpoint. You know going to get your point

12:26

there. I think that's. One

12:28

of the challenges I and I we've

12:31

talked with arson and other venues over

12:33

the years how the loss of the

12:35

F Plus Symposium was used to be

12:37

every October, a surly September wasn't just

12:39

about airport people often misunderstood that like

12:41

yes, it was on paper camp last

12:43

but was also in reality where every

12:45

single one of these companies met an

12:47

eighth. they talked about the standards and

12:49

a push the stairs ford over a

12:51

bunch of beer in Canada like that's

12:53

how that industry mood for for many,

12:56

many years. Ah, that's gone. And while

12:58

these companies. Do kind of talk to each other.

13:00

I know the tax folks talk to the white

13:02

folks are taught us as folks are totally sucks

13:04

about these things. It is a very slow moving,

13:06

very tangled web compared to what it used to

13:08

be and I don't know how we get back

13:10

to that and had to be called the Apple.

13:12

suppose you could be called. Whatever.

13:14

You want but there needs to be some entity

13:16

that can keep people moving forward on some a

13:19

standard see door and up where we are now

13:21

which is that most the standards are falling apart.

13:24

Yeah. No, I totally agree. it's

13:26

ah yeah, you t deathly see

13:28

a little bit more divergence in

13:30

terms of teachers and compatibility at

13:32

this point. So yeah, I guess

13:34

I inserted his trainer. I think

13:36

it's A again it it's a

13:38

really cool concept. I think what

13:40

we probably can just lead right

13:42

into though is the quite ironic.

13:45

Announcement. Was it. Was.

13:47

It a date or are good

13:49

as it was a twenty four

13:51

hours before so Swift announced on

13:54

it's own forums. Pretty massive cut

13:56

to their workforce as well as

13:58

or Cosimo or. Signing sort of

14:00

the context numbers here. Is

14:03

what officially would not say but over last at

14:05

a forty eight hours at Scott and. Clear.

14:08

And sera how big the says Mrs

14:10

masses are so we saw in numbers

14:12

initially says if tad about five hundred

14:14

and thirty ish or so employees give

14:16

or take. Fifty. Armed.

14:18

It's a bit unclear exactly why that

14:20

number Laden and but.five hundred is so

14:22

police and the in the first confirmation

14:24

us off or someone that I trust

14:26

at you and I both trust Very

14:28

heavily armed. Have put it a quote

14:30

over one hundred. And

14:33

then I got another confirmation last night

14:35

from an all hands meeting. Same the

14:37

number was thirty five percent of the

14:39

torah for switches. Masses.

14:42

Arm and a set this person, other person. I got the

14:44

number from my trust. More than almost

14:46

anyone. The industry, right as I know. I know

14:48

that they know that that numbers very, very real

14:50

and so. That. Is a huge mats

14:52

an elephant and ever closer. probably like. When.

14:54

Fifty One Seventy Five. And.

14:57

I. Have a look today! So we're filming this on

14:59

Thursday and. And theory at sometime

15:02

today it's California said mom poster warden.

15:04

I'm lay off announcement our database update

15:06

for the week I was. they update

15:08

every other day. So the one that

15:10

matters here for a contacts dance but

15:13

that will only show the California numbers.

15:15

it won't show. The global

15:17

numbers and we know they're people go

15:19

boys arm so ah, but I'll give

15:21

us least a small live peek into

15:23

that. but thirty five percent is a

15:25

huge huge car, which puts him down

15:27

to the. I don't know

15:29

My guesses? Three hundreds up a three hundred or so.

15:31

I. For the company can retake. So.

15:34

Our people farm he he had a lot of

15:37

different versions. This is not just hardware, this is

15:39

across the board. Me the most horrible Not like

15:41

every year ago when eight exact size it's their

15:43

plans from as. That's.

15:45

Really where this partnership with loss who is

15:47

extremely smart so they could just basically can

15:49

a lot of cost on the hardware and

15:52

of and a things that at this point

15:54

on they're not. They don't even necessarily have

15:56

to have really much in terms of an

15:58

Rd department in conjunction with. black before

16:00

where, you know, they were kind of working

16:02

together to make that trader a little bit better.

16:04

This eliminates a lot of those

16:06

costs. So it really was the

16:09

smartest decision from the Zwift standpoint. But if

16:12

you eliminate the hardware component to it,

16:14

you know, you're just selling software and a

16:17

software as a subscription model at this point

16:19

too. So, you know, you have to look

16:21

at where all

16:23

the money's going because it's not like

16:26

they have a small subscriber base and

16:28

eliminating. No. I mean, you know, workforce

16:30

is definitely one thing, but, you know,

16:32

you have to look at like where

16:34

where's the rest of this money going? And I

16:37

think a lot of that is marketing and sponsorships.

16:39

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think,

16:42

you know, I the numbers

16:44

that I'm, you know, I've said

16:46

you read in the last few months that the estimated

16:48

number is between like 750 and 900,000.

16:51

I'm hearing this closer than 900 ish or so, like

16:53

the upper, like just below a million. They haven't crossed

16:56

a million is the general consensus from everyone I'm hearing.

17:00

Given that we're talking, you know, a reasonable amount of money.

17:02

So you're talking roughly 15 million

17:05

dollars a month in subscription

17:07

revenue, given or take coming

17:10

in. And, you

17:12

know, then you scale that out. And obviously

17:14

that's somewhat challenging when you look at having

17:16

a 300 person workforce of

17:19

high tech employees and generally

17:21

well-paid employees across many different

17:24

expensive geographies. Right. So California and in

17:26

Colorado and London and, you know, you

17:29

name these places that are all not

17:31

cheap from an employee standpoint. And, you

17:33

know, certainly marketing is a big piece.

17:35

That's been a big piece of Swiss

17:37

budget for a long, long time. And

17:39

someone the other day kind of said, you

17:41

know, it's a big hit for Zwift to lose the

17:44

UCI World Championships to

17:47

my wish. And I kind of

17:49

counter as actually I don't think it is. I think that

17:51

was a that was almost like a

17:53

secret win there, even though Zwift would want

17:55

to that world championships. But I'd argue

17:57

at this point, there is no marketing.

18:00

benefit in hosting the

18:02

UCI World Championships in 2024, for

18:06

Zwift in particular. There is probably for my wish

18:08

of marketing benefit, but not for Zwift because in

18:10

Zwift's case, anyone who's going to

18:12

watch that race, which by the way, if you look

18:14

at the YouTube stats for the streams

18:16

on that for this past year, so just under

18:19

a year ago, with only 99,000 views on that

18:21

video, right?

18:23

So that is, I mean,

18:25

for you and I, 99,000 views is a nice, nice

18:28

day for video. But contextually speaking,

18:30

if you were just to monetize that video,

18:32

you're talking a little under 1000 bucks in revenue

18:35

for 100,000 views, roughly like

18:37

simple YouTube math is 100,000 views is

18:40

1000 bucks, give or take for this particular audience

18:42

and demographic, it's worth a lot more if you're

18:44

talking finance and worth a lot lesser for talking

18:46

knitting, but simple math for you. And

18:49

obviously, their goal isn't to make money on that

18:51

broadcast, because they would have spent that in like

18:54

10 minutes on the number of staff they had involved there.

18:57

But there is no one watching the

18:59

UCI indoor sports world championships. So we're

19:01

not talking the restaurant talking the indoor

19:04

side is with that isn't already where

19:06

is with in probably already subscribers with

19:08

so you're marketing to the

19:10

same people that you're it

19:12

didn't didn't make a lot of sense versus the the

19:15

Tour de France of xM makes

19:17

sense to me the the women's Tour de France there

19:19

because that is a

19:21

title sponsor. So that's on every single banner

19:24

across every billboard and France and other countries

19:26

are starting I think they share this starting

19:28

in the Netherlands. That

19:31

could legitimately have people look

19:33

at that and go, what is with I've never heard

19:35

of stuff standing aside of a bike race, what is

19:37

this with thing? Look it up and maybe convert maybe

19:39

not. But that also benefits women's

19:41

cycling and there's a lot of positives there.

19:43

And so I actually don't think

19:45

some of those more can cost like the loss

19:47

of the UCI world championships is that they could

19:50

deal. And that's really where

19:52

in terms of this expansion or where

19:54

they need to actually expand their audience.

19:56

It's like you know, cyclists, cyclists

19:59

know about swim. So, you

20:01

know, it's really more the, I

20:04

would say more like the Peloton style

20:06

audience that they really need to expand

20:08

to, which I think the Zwift hub

20:11

was really a good

20:13

step in that direction. So that's

20:15

really where they need to expand

20:17

the, you know, Zwift exposure,

20:20

I guess you could say to, I

20:22

don't want to say non-cyclists, but

20:24

you know, people that don't live and

20:26

breathe cycling all day long, which are

20:29

all the UCI, you know, Zwift racing

20:31

type people. Yeah. And

20:33

it'll be really interesting to see, I mean, that's, you

20:35

know, if we started kind of going out further on this path is that,

20:38

you know, Zwift had a valuation of

20:40

roughly a billion dollars in their latest

20:42

round. So billion with a

20:45

B, like boy, like there is

20:47

no scenario left on this planet

20:49

where Zwift will have that valuation

20:51

again. That valuation was just

20:53

after the kind of peak of COVID where people thought

20:55

there was a, you know, this is going to be

20:57

something with many millions of users. And

20:59

Zwift user base has basically flatlined for last

21:02

since COVID, essentially, since the beginning of COVID since, you

21:04

know, 2020 ish, it's flatlined. And

21:09

they've reached everyone they're going to reach at

21:11

this point that wants to be on Zwift

21:13

with the way Zwift is as a platform

21:15

today. And I start to wonder, you

21:19

know, those investors, their big name investors, we're not

21:21

talking like mom, paw investors, we're talking some of

21:23

the biggest names of Silicon Valley. And

21:26

those are companies that are hoping to see return

21:28

of investments that are 10x, 20x, 100x

21:31

off their return there. And

21:33

right now they're looking at like, if someone

21:36

were to go buy Zwift, I

21:38

would imagine it would go for a fraction of that.

21:41

You know, it wouldn't certainly not going to go

21:43

for the latest fundraising round of 600 million. It

21:47

would be, I can't imagine much more than a couple

21:49

hundred million at most, at most, right? I

21:52

mean, that's just the reality because people know that that

21:54

business isn't going to grow as it is today. They've

21:56

seen the numbers. I know the numbers. So

21:58

they that's been played out. live

22:00

start to pivot towards, and

22:02

I know people will hate this, but

22:04

towards peloton like breadth in terms of

22:06

the content they have in the appeal

22:08

they have. It'll

22:11

be interesting to see. It's something that I was at

22:13

a birthday party surprise, birthday

22:15

party for family members past weekend. And

22:18

the demographic of that was 60 to

22:21

90 years old, like that was

22:23

a group there. And I was blown away with how many of

22:25

these 60 to 90 year olds had peloton

22:27

bikes and used peloton bikes

22:30

on the regular, like every day, as you give or

22:32

take. And the core reason

22:34

was simply that it just worked.

22:37

And most of them have

22:39

bought these used secondhand or on big fire

22:41

cells from peloton of the last couple of

22:43

years. And so they're talking roughly

22:45

$1,000 or less versus

22:48

while the kicker core is $5.99 with

22:51

as years of included, that's certainly cheaper than a

22:53

peloton's encryption at 40 bucks a month. There's

22:56

also the reality you got to put a bike on there

22:58

and you've got to have a TV display on it. And

23:00

like it just the and, and, and, and

23:02

you try explaining to a 76 year old and

23:04

80 year old, like

23:07

all this stuff and why it's not working. And they

23:09

just say, I'm not doing this. Somebody's going to buy

23:11

something that works. And that's what Zwift

23:13

I think was going for with the Zwift bike back

23:16

a couple of years ago. And I'm not sure how they get

23:18

to that though in some ways with the

23:20

current product. Yeah.

23:23

Brings up a good point with the peloton

23:26

bikes is that, you know, I see peloton

23:28

bikes on the regular now in gyms. And

23:31

again, that increases their exposure.

23:33

I had never once seen

23:36

anything Zwift associated in

23:38

a gym setting, which again,

23:41

would just lead to that exposure that they would

23:43

have there. Yeah. Yeah. It comes back to like

23:46

you don't have in some ways a watt bike,

23:49

the Adam 2020, the screen built in or the

23:52

Tekno Jim bikes, things like that. Like Adam

23:56

X, I guess it was anyways, those, those sort of

23:58

bikes like the technical tech mode gym. having

24:01

Zwift run on it, which I know there's lots

24:03

of complications there. Some of those Technogym,

24:05

some of them Zwift, but that would

24:07

have been the perfect scenario, especially given

24:09

Technogym's breath in gyms, even more so

24:11

in Europe, but also coming up in

24:13

the US as well. And that's

24:16

where I just wonder, like you said, how do you expand

24:18

that appeal to more people? And it's a, it's a very

24:20

slow, slow rolling ball to

24:22

do that. Yeah. I'm not sure

24:24

what a ball is left they've got to roll. Yeah,

24:27

exactly. So I wanted to actually loop

24:29

back to the holds whipped hub in

24:31

my opinion, looking at where they are

24:33

right now, I would have to imagine

24:35

that whole exercise probably

24:38

cost them a lot of

24:40

money in the whole scheme.

24:44

NASA for that money. You

24:46

know, looping back to when these

24:48

Zwift hub was originally launched. So, you

24:51

know, the term is they basically broke the

24:53

internet when they launched that product, because at

24:55

that time, I think it was 499. Is

24:57

that correct? Yeah. Yep. And, you know,

24:59

they told me in the whole, you know,

25:02

in the conference room where all the press were and everything

25:04

like that, you know, like I, I think

25:07

it was either me or Ben Delaney or

25:09

something like that, who asked, like, all right, so are

25:11

you making money on this product? They

25:14

said yes, but you know what, I could have been

25:16

50 cents at the same time too. And,

25:18

you know, technically that would have been a yes, but you

25:21

know, that was, that's what in

25:23

the industry you call a loss leader where,

25:26

you know, that's meant to sell subscriptions,

25:28

that's not meant to make money on the

25:30

product themselves. But, you

25:33

know, looking back at that whole thing, I think

25:37

that strategy was

25:39

good to bring in new customers who, you

25:41

know, that didn't want to spend $2,000 on

25:44

a Peloton bike, but that

25:47

strategy, I think, I

25:49

think that hurt the industry. Oh, definitely.

25:51

It 100% hurt the industry.

25:53

It helped consumers, but only

25:56

briefly, like most things, right, that when

25:59

you see. two companies get together they they initially

26:01

help consumers and then down the road we've seen

26:03

effectively the loss of Saris as a trainer company

26:06

like I mean those Saris as an entity is

26:08

still there and they get upset when I say

26:10

that but practically speaking

26:12

Saris is no longer a meaningful name

26:15

in the trainer industry when

26:17

it comes to these sorts of trainers maybe

26:19

they're selling a bunch of mechanical two-dollar trainers

26:21

somewhere but no one is talking about the

26:23

Saris H anything anymore because

26:25

that engineering team is effectively gone they're

26:27

gone when the company sold itself off

26:30

to a basically a brand portfolio holding

26:32

company and that holding company does

26:34

nothing more than send out emails for the last year

26:36

and a half like marketing emails

26:38

that's it so they're no longer there kinetic

26:42

has effectively gone away as well so

26:44

kinetic was there they were

26:46

bought by Majin and now run by Majin

26:49

as a shell company there but

26:51

there's no one left in it well there's one

26:53

person left in America but there's no enough in

26:55

that what used to be an all-american manufacturing company

26:58

the same with Saris and I look

27:00

at Elite and I worry will

27:02

that happen to them next and

27:05

I think you know Elite makes great products like

27:07

they especially in the last few years they've really

27:10

matured and the products they're making and they're making

27:12

really good products but their cost

27:14

structure is high compared to

27:16

what you know the the Y2 Kicker

27:18

core is made in Thailand or Vietnam

27:21

or somewhere I don't think the

27:23

kick core is made in in China I think it's

27:25

in Vietnam or Thailand but point

27:28

is their cost structure is much lower than

27:30

than Elite's in Europe and their their

27:32

overall prices too and so while

27:35

Elite gets close on pricing it's very tough

27:37

for them to get close on pricing in

27:39

both Europe as well as the US and

27:41

then it's you look at those and a lot

27:43

of people say well why would I buy an Elite Dretto

27:46

over a or a Sweeto over

27:48

a Kicker like what is

27:50

the what's the driving reason to do that

27:53

and I don't

27:55

think Elite or even I or you or

27:57

others have a good answer for that like it's one of those

28:00

I was like, because we eat

28:02

in Italian and we like pizza and pasta?

28:04

I don't know. I don't have a

28:06

good answer there. The

28:09

point there being that it's not good for the

28:11

industry when we start losing some of these are

28:13

basically going to be down to just Wahoo and

28:15

tax, that's a Garmin tax. We

28:19

know how Garmin will react

28:21

to that. They're just going to keep their

28:24

prices high and they're going to

28:26

keep on going. Yeah. No, and they're going to

28:28

stay profitable at that point too. Right

28:32

now, I think the expectation

28:34

of a quality direct drive

28:36

bike trainer around $600, that's

28:40

the expectation amongst the industry, right? Or amongst

28:42

consumers, I guess you could say. That's

28:44

going to be the price point. But

28:46

what we have to look at is

28:48

like, is that actually going to be

28:50

sustainable for these companies moving forward? Because

28:53

yeah, every consumer, all of us,

28:55

we want the lowest price possible. I

28:58

also want the companies to stay in business so they'll

29:01

support the products later on down the road. Yeah.

29:04

I think that would be interesting because to be clear,

29:06

these trainers can be produced for far

29:08

less than $500. We saw that

29:10

even Elite will save themselves. We're

29:12

seeing that now with Decathlon too. Decathlon introduced

29:15

trainers in this realm and I've been showing

29:17

them with a bunch last few weeks and

29:20

got some stuff planned there to probably get some of

29:22

these in there and see if they're actually any good.

29:24

Some of these are basically just manufactured

29:27

variants of the Jet Black trainer, which

29:29

is made by a different manufacturing partner

29:31

in Asia or the Majin trainers, et

29:33

cetera. Those companies, they OEM models that

29:36

are sent out for many different entities

29:38

and maybe Wahoo will decide those

29:40

violate the patents there. But as we talked about,

29:42

I think in one of the previous episodes, I

29:45

don't think Wahoo will sue again because I

29:48

think Wahoo got pretty

29:50

well slapped by the judge in the first

29:52

patent trial that the judge basically said your

29:54

patent started to get revoked, some of them

29:57

anyways, over this and that they don't stand

29:59

a ground. They don't stand ground in

30:01

terms of being you know legit so I'm

30:03

not sure why who would be too eager

30:05

to sue again because I think People

30:08

will just another company legal team would

30:10

would basically fast forward past a lot of

30:12

stuff and like like the monopoly like just Go

30:15

to there and move forward So

30:18

it'll be interesting to see and you know, obviously why

30:20

who does bring a lot of innovation to the marketplace

30:22

I'm not saying they don't I'm not saying their stuff

30:24

isn't innovative or unique or

30:26

whatever But there

30:28

is a difference between being innovative unique and

30:30

being something that you can actually patent And

30:34

have that patent hold water over a longer period

30:36

of time. So it'll be I

30:38

don't know what the solution is for all these things I

30:41

think we are starting to see growth in this in the trainer industry

30:44

But I'm worried that a

30:46

lot of this consolidation won't actually benefit the

30:48

consumer in the end Yeah,

30:50

an awfully exciting week in the world

30:53

of indoor cycling And I don't know

30:55

I would say at this point that

30:58

hopefully things can kind of

31:00

just settle down for a little bit and We'll

31:02

just kind of see what happens this

31:04

year because you know We're already in

31:06

mid-February when we're filming this episode mid-February

31:09

or so So, you know, we're starting

31:11

to all of us are starting

31:13

to think about spring already So we'll have

31:15

to see how it pans out the rest

31:17

of the year So so yeah,

31:19

that's the Zwift Wahoo their new trainer

31:21

and a whole bunch

31:23

of drama So let's talk about something

31:25

on the completely other end of the

31:27

scale Could be sort

31:29

of related in the future but the new

31:32

Apple. I'm sorry. No previous.

31:34

Okay. No previous. Sorry I thought we're talking

31:36

greatest. No, no, no, no, this is better

31:38

the breathe. I'll be breeders. No, I

31:40

see breeders in the future We've

31:44

got breeders in the list here so That

31:48

doesn't remind me I have a free guac coupon from

31:50

Strava which we'll talk about here in one second Yeah,

31:53

you're right I signed up for that too.

31:55

I don't know. All right. Okay. Okay. Anyways,

31:57

yeah getting back to it getting back to

31:59

fruit Let's see your fruit first

32:01

then burritos later Yeah,

32:04

let's talk about the new

32:06

Apple Vision Pro So this

32:08

is their new VR AR

32:10

headset that enables spatial computing

32:12

So I have actually never

32:14

tried one of these headsets before

32:16

just to give you an idea of my

32:18

perspective here but I went and

32:20

demoed this yesterday at an Apple store and It

32:24

was probably one of the most amazing pieces of

32:26

technology I've tried in a long long time and

32:29

I know there's the Oculus and a

32:31

whole bunch of other products out there, but it

32:34

was a phenomenal experience

32:37

But I didn't walk out the door with the

32:39

one either There were some really cool things

32:41

about it, you know Just the fact that

32:43

you know, you could obviously do all these

32:45

different things You could do like have all

32:47

these windows up the control

32:49

with your eyes was phenomenal That

32:52

worked so well for me the

32:54

finger gesture thing that didn't That

32:57

was a little finicky for me, but I think that's

32:59

probably just take some practice or something like that But

33:02

the coolest experience for me

33:04

was the spatial photos That

33:06

was that was really

33:08

really cool to see but the spatial videos

33:11

So to give you an idea of what happens

33:13

here is like with the spatial photos and spatial

33:16

videos these are essentially

33:18

like, you know 3d photos or

33:21

3d videos that you're

33:23

kind of like immersed in and The

33:26

spatial videos an example

33:28

I would give was like, you know Think about

33:30

those like movies where you you have those characters

33:32

that are like in the future where they're reliving

33:34

their memories That's that

33:36

sort of experience and there's there's almost like

33:39

something somber about it because you know a

33:41

lot of those movies Yeah, you know, it's

33:43

like this this person, you know,

33:45

just like oh, I don't know. Hey, hey Unfortunately

33:47

lost their family or something like that. They're

33:49

seeing their kids run around There was like

33:51

this somber feeling for me with with that

33:53

sort of thing And then the

33:56

last thing that I thought was really really cool

33:58

were the immersive videos where very much the

34:00

same concept where you have the whole 180 degree

34:02

view. So like I said, I

34:05

did not walk out the door with them. What

34:07

happened with you, Ray? So

34:09

what happened was, so

34:12

I wasn't really planning on getting one per

34:14

se. But then I wasn't also planning on

34:17

being in the US at the time. And

34:19

then I just was there and I just

34:21

showed up my door. So it's

34:25

been interesting, like, playing with it for last week

34:27

or so, I guess last week. And

34:30

using a bunch of scenarios, using it both

34:33

for implied fitness scenarios, as well as fitness

34:35

scenarios that aren't really on the list of

34:37

things that's supposed to do with it, as

34:40

well as just day to day stuff, right. And,

34:42

you know, I think if you've read reviews on

34:44

it, you know that the

34:47

general gist of it is that people say it's heavy and

34:49

it is, it's definitely heavy. People

34:52

say that it lacks a

34:55

clear purpose, like

34:57

as to what the clear use case is for

34:59

most people to use this. And I'd say that's

35:01

generally true. There's clear purpose for what the device

35:03

does, but whether or not that lines to what

35:05

you as a person want. So like you can,

35:07

as you said, you can watch, you know, 3D

35:09

movies, immersive movies, and you can make the

35:11

screen feel like it's people say like 100

35:14

feet wide or whatever the case is. I'm

35:16

not sure if I'm good at that analogy

35:18

as much, but it makes it like a

35:20

big old screen. And the 3D aspects of it,

35:22

the immersive aspects of it, people probably seen like the

35:24

demo of the butterfly thing. It's just mind

35:26

boggling. Like it's super, super cool.

35:29

And from a technology standpoint, it

35:31

is fantastic overall, like a geekery,

35:33

like this is amazing. I

35:37

think my challenges are, and so it also

35:39

passes through video. So you put this on

35:41

and while you may think you're looking at

35:43

something, there's actually cameras on the outside that

35:45

are regenerating or outside

35:47

view inside the lenses

35:49

and you have basically two 4k lenses

35:51

inside. And that just makes the whole

35:54

world outside replicated inside again with these

35:56

cameras. And again,

35:59

going back to this. surprise birthday

36:01

party for old people that were at that

36:03

was at this weekend. I

36:05

had a bunch of old people try this and it

36:07

was it was really cool to

36:09

watch their reaction like you

36:11

know literally jumping away from things sort of thing and

36:14

it was it was fascinating. I didn't really film much

36:16

of it probably because it was kind of late at

36:18

night it was all dark as whatnot but it was

36:21

it was neat to see people's reaction to

36:23

this at least until we got to the

36:25

price anyways and you know it was just

36:28

like oh wow this is this is incredible

36:30

stuff and so that was cool

36:32

and then I looked more like from a sports

36:34

angle like my goal was initially to kind of

36:37

look at this from the sport fitness standpoint and

36:39

what does it do in sport and fitness and

36:41

there is effectively like three and a half ways

36:43

apps get on this device in order of preference

36:45

here it's really important understand this to understand the

36:48

device as a whole so number one is apps

36:50

can get on via the

36:53

vision OS which is sort of like iOS

36:56

or basically an app platform and

36:58

so you develop an app for this app platform it's

37:01

a custom built for that and there are very

37:03

very few apps in that realm like

37:05

there's no YouTube app there's no Netflix app there's no

37:07

almost anything app out there except for like Disney

37:10

and a handful of other apps out there it's

37:12

very very few. The next layer is that if

37:14

you have an iOS or iPad

37:17

app those by default

37:19

will be allowed to be installed on

37:21

the device with some you know minor

37:23

restrictions but you can just install any

37:25

iOS or iPhone app as long as

37:27

that company has not disabled access to

37:29

it so the company has to go

37:31

and untoggle something that is there

37:34

by default so we've seen again

37:37

Netflix untoggle their iOS app and

37:39

their iPad app and YouTube untoggled

37:41

it and as did Strava

37:43

and Peloton and Zwift and so on

37:46

so then the next step down is you

37:49

can take any app from your Mac and

37:51

project it into the goggles so you can

37:53

do that for for example Final Cut Pro

37:55

or you know any app you want even

37:58

even Zwift but one you start doing doing

38:00

that you get into latency quirks and just

38:02

like usage quirks because now you're

38:04

no longer operating it via your eyes

38:06

and your fingers, but you're operating it

38:08

via the keyboard on your computer. So

38:10

there's just like the weird, it's

38:12

very tough to get around. It's not, it

38:15

is not ideal. So it's

38:17

one of those that it demos somewhat well

38:19

for like YouTubers trying to get views, but

38:22

in real life, it's, it's

38:25

not awesome. As my four year old daughter

38:27

says, I did not love that. And

38:30

so you, you then find

38:32

that the last category, which is that

38:34

you can access apps via Safari. So basically

38:37

anything on a web browser, that's like

38:39

your lowest common denominator and apps is like

38:41

quotation marks there. So with

38:43

that hierarchy set, you've

38:45

got to look at what's actually available from fitness standpoint. And

38:47

if you look at from a fitness apps

38:50

that are native vision OS apps,

38:52

there is virtually nothing, there's like

38:54

a handful of like

38:56

form type stuff for indoor weight training

38:58

and stuff like that, that core workouts,

39:00

etc. And some meditation apps and things

39:03

along that realm, but very, very little.

39:05

And then in the apps that

39:08

are leftover that companies haven't toggled off in

39:10

our realm of sport and fitness, we

39:12

do see things like Ruby is allowed. So I

39:14

downloaded that full gas was

39:16

allowed, I downloaded that my

39:19

roost was there, I downloaded that, but Zwift was

39:22

toggled off. That was like a last second decision.

39:24

I talked to them a bunch leading up about

39:26

this. And by the time I got around to

39:29

going to install Zwift, it was not there anymore.

39:31

And I'm still talking about them about that. It

39:34

sounds like they're very open to leaving it on.

39:36

But I think a lot of companies have been

39:38

afraid of leaving that checkbox on. And then users

39:40

demanding support for it, opposed to being treated as

39:42

a, Hey, it's an iPad or an iPhone

39:44

app that's running on the goggles. Good luck to you. And

39:47

what I've seen in running apps is

39:49

there are legit problems. So I used to the

39:52

Ride With GPS app to try to record

39:54

an outdoor ride. I went riding through trails

39:56

on this. We'll put a bit of a

39:58

snippet of video here. I've got a longer

40:01

a longer video that I'm working on

40:03

and I kind of walk through this whole thing And

40:06

I the reason for this wasn't necessarily

40:08

entirely clicks and views it was those

40:10

curious about latency So people

40:12

talk about the pass-through video. That's the Headlining

40:15

feature of this is that it is taking

40:17

your outside roll via these cameras that are

40:19

on the outside of the goggles and then

40:21

It's passing that through to the inside lenses

40:23

because again, it's a opaque thing in between

40:25

the outside the inside That's not clear glass.

40:27

You can't see through this so

40:30

it has to retransmit that into the inside of

40:32

the goggles and Kind

40:34

of a litmus test for a lot

40:36

of your goggles is whether you can

40:38

play ping pong with them, right? Is that enough

40:41

that people can play ping pong back and forth and a

40:43

lot of goggles have gotten to that point these days And

40:46

we've seen like with metas quest three goggles.

40:48

They are designed for sport fitness They have

40:51

an entire dedicated page about using them during

40:53

workouts and how to clean them and stuff

40:55

like that Apple

40:58

basically says don't kind of but there's

41:00

actually if you look at Jerry rig

41:02

everything's video Tear down of it.

41:04

He shows all the things they've done internally to make

41:06

it a bit more Water and sweat

41:08

resistant and people realize me can remove the phone

41:11

inserts and things like that Anyways,

41:13

a point of this side distraction was I

41:15

went riding outside to see was the reaction

41:17

time fast enough on trails I

41:20

wouldn't call it mountain biking because I didn't bring a mountain

41:22

bike with me so I stole my dad's road bike and

41:24

went on trails that were definitely not designed for road bikes

41:26

and just to make it work and The

41:29

answer is it's fast enough. Yes, but

41:32

the quality level there is not

41:34

super Great

41:37

in lower light conditions And

41:39

so in the trails it became very very

41:41

difficult to tell the difference between hard pack

41:43

sand and soft sand And that

41:45

really mattered to me on a road bike when I

41:47

really shouldn't bet on either those two scenarios And

41:50

so I didn't crash at all thankfully But

41:53

it was an interesting exercise and that's where

41:55

the app though from an app standpoint the ribers

41:57

GPS app was the app that I used to

41:59

show my my speed, it was cool. I

42:01

had this gigantic effective like free screen

42:04

headset. Yeah, totally. So like that aspect

42:06

was amazing. Totally. You know, I was

42:08

GPS app over there, like that worked

42:10

ish. I

42:12

say ish because of the whole thing on travel

42:15

mode that we wouldn't even get through here. That's

42:17

a whole different topic for a whole different day

42:19

and how the headset pins windows to space and

42:21

time. So I would pin it and then ride

42:23

through it. And

42:25

I couldn't use travel mode here

42:27

because it was too bumpy

42:29

basically. So detected things were not like on an

42:32

airplane, which is what I designed for. So there

42:34

was lots of caveats to this. Some

42:36

of them, almost all of them were probably

42:38

more my fault and an Apple's fault. But

42:41

from an app standpoint, my point I'm finally going

42:43

to get to here is that there were pieces

42:45

of that that you couldn't get to from an

42:47

eye tracking perspective very easily. Things that weren't designed

42:49

because it was an iPhone app that was being

42:51

projected up there with tiny little options that you're

42:53

like, how do I change that option with my

42:55

eyes and just tap the tap, which is how

42:57

you tap the tap planes. So

43:01

anyways, those are all things that I'll get into in this video

43:03

that maybe it'll be our

43:05

podcast up. Probably not, but you never

43:07

know. No, I, you know,

43:09

in terms of fitness, that's obviously the thing that,

43:11

you know, you and I would

43:13

think about this first. And I think the

43:16

potential for a device like this for

43:18

fitness. Oh, gosh. There are

43:20

so many possible things that you could do

43:23

with this. That would just be so incredibly

43:25

cool. This particular

43:27

device though, I don't

43:29

think it's intended really much at all

43:31

for fitness for quite a few reasons.

43:35

You know, number one, I think it's going to be the weight. The weight

43:37

is going to be a big, big factor.

43:39

I was sitting there only for a 30 minute

43:41

demo. And even at that

43:43

point, I'm like, wow, I am feeling this thing on

43:45

my head. I mean, I didn't have the top

43:48

strap one or the dual strap. I had just

43:50

the solo band around the back and

43:53

I felt it after a while. And you know, I

43:55

was thinking, I was trying to think about the use

43:57

cases, you know, for me and for me.

44:00

me again, this particular

44:02

device would be an entertainment device

44:05

for what it currently does and you

44:07

know, even for me sitting around my

44:09

house, I was

44:11

thinking about like, alright, if I'm sitting in my living

44:13

room using this, I would actually probably

44:15

want to be laying back just so my head

44:17

is actually propped up because of the weight. That's

44:19

literally how I want to use it. And

44:22

so, you know, thinking about how the headset

44:24

supposed to work though is that, you know,

44:27

you can look around and

44:29

move your head and that would get

44:31

tiring for me after a while and

44:33

and you know, just for a little

44:35

bit of context, like, I

44:37

even used to have a 40 inch huge

44:39

40 inch monitor for my computer, and I

44:41

downsized to a 32 inch because

44:43

I didn't want to, you know, move

44:45

my head around that much. So to

44:48

move my head around with this plus

44:50

the extra weight, again, that pretty much

44:52

eliminates it, the use case for

44:54

fitness at that point. And then the

44:57

other part of it comes down to

44:59

the UI and the interactions as well

45:01

as because you know, with me, if

45:04

you've watched any of my videos, and you can see

45:06

me right now, I talk with my hands constantly. So

45:09

so I was accidentally doing things here

45:11

and there. So in a

45:14

fitness scenario, there's

45:16

a there's so much to work out there.

45:18

So in terms of

45:20

why, you know, we're not

45:22

seeing Zwift or, you know,

45:25

many other fitness apps or pretty much

45:27

any other fitness app on here, there's

45:29

a lot to work out with the

45:31

UI because the UI and

45:34

I actually had to give Apple a ton

45:36

of credit here, the UI that they made

45:38

for this in terms of the little handles

45:40

and the little controls and whatnot specific for

45:42

this system. From

45:44

somebody who has a UX background

45:46

and UI background, oh my gosh,

45:48

like they crushed it, they did

45:50

such a great job. But the

45:54

interface in terms of your eyes and your

45:56

fingers, that has to be really. thought

46:00

through with a fitness scenario.

46:04

I think it even needs to be thought through with the way it's

46:06

current implementation to the rest of the platform. I think for me that

46:09

my biggest challenge with it outside of

46:11

the use case is I am I'm

46:14

too fast on a computer for it. So

46:17

like when friends and family and you better with

46:19

me like I move very very fast to the

46:22

computer because that's what I grew up doing right

46:24

and so people are always like you move so

46:26

fast what are you doing and in this with

46:28

division pro my eyes are going faster than I

46:31

can have it recognized you have to tap

46:34

everything so you look at something tap look at something

46:36

tap so like entering a passcode in like I want

46:38

to enter it in one two three four five six

46:40

right and it's like I can't

46:42

it's one two two three four right

46:44

and it's it takes long it

46:46

takes so long that for

46:48

me the device has it today it's great for

46:51

watching a video on it's like oh wow this

46:53

is super cool but to do other work stuff

46:55

on there I haven't found

46:57

it very practical like people can have all these windows

46:59

up like this right you see that and you see

47:02

oh it's amazing how those windows up up up

47:04

there but what you don't realize is that

47:06

you could only work with one window at a

47:08

time right because it's tracking your eyes so you

47:10

you can you can't glance like you'd have physical

47:13

mod you can glance there but you can't interact

47:15

with that quickly because you've got to look at

47:17

this bring in a focus connect with

47:19

that you know with your hands and then

47:21

go back to the next window over here the next

47:23

room it's not it's

47:26

more challenging than I think some

47:28

videos make it out to be I think

47:30

you know in YouTube or review culture right

47:32

especially for some of these high-profile devices you

47:34

end up having one camp of fanboy is

47:36

um of like this is amazing the best

47:38

thing ever anyone that's anything bad sucks right

47:40

that's there they're just dumb people and then

47:42

the other camp which is everything's horrible about

47:44

this device and I think

47:46

the middle ground is somewhere like closer

47:49

to it's an amazing device but

47:51

definitely has some quirks

47:53

like some some really hard quirks that

47:56

make it challenging to use On

47:58

a daily basis for. The different

48:00

applications beyond just content consumption of

48:02

video experiences may you know This

48:05

actually goes back to ah tweet

48:07

that Martin Garmin the had about

48:09

the Vision Pro actually quite a

48:11

while back as that on the

48:14

basis of that Apple's Vision Pro

48:16

Chief sees surgery. Technical.

48:18

Training and education is a key feature

48:20

areas for the device and I think

48:23

that's that's really where I see this

48:25

device Other than you know entertainment because

48:27

like the entertainment it was and it

48:29

was incredible. But in terms of. Those.

48:32

Sort applications in terms of training of

48:34

gosh I could see the starting an

48:36

amazing tool. Like I mean you know

48:38

just in terms of like ah like

48:41

a surgery or something like that. you

48:43

know simulated surgery. that which is be

48:45

absolutely phenomenal. Cell. And

48:47

again around surgery of of your bike right? So

48:49

imagine like an officer it's there and he you

48:51

think of all in front like from bikes. ah

48:54

perspective all the different types of components in your

48:56

bike and trying to have someone understand. do they

48:58

have a nice be a twelve speaker said writing

49:00

account that down but what an accounting people and

49:03

I kind of the car going this way or

49:05

the and account the council and down like a

49:07

him as an app is smart enough to recognize

49:09

bike parts and has a catalogue of millions of

49:12

by parts concise. Here is how you fix this

49:14

item on your bike, why you were in the

49:16

goggles and literally. Highlights: The exact part

49:18

on Twist is here. Now take

49:20

the satellites. Amazing things

49:22

could happen with us. Down the road

49:25

is out developer Leverage that. Yeah.

49:27

Totally. Now let's talk about the price and

49:29

this is really why I did not walk

49:31

out the door with one if it was.

49:34

It. This was. A thousand

49:36

dollars. I would have walked out the

49:38

door then served as two thousand dollars?

49:41

Probably not. But. The. Apple

49:43

Vision Pro started. Thirty. Five Hundred

49:45

dollars and cents. Plus

49:48

tax plus you're carrying case which has two

49:50

hundred bucks plus and you know that's like

49:52

be lower stored version. Now.

49:55

Lines in a Persian forced by the with. On

49:57

supplies.in a plastic bag or a paper.

50:01

I thought about it, but I wanted to protect it a bit. So

50:03

I put in a pair of $10 running shorts

50:06

country in my bag No,

50:08

okay Now okay, so

50:11

getting to to that whole price

50:13

so we all know that Apple products, you know

50:15

There's there's a certain premium price that you have

50:17

to pay for an Apple product now There's

50:19

I think there's a lot of factors that go into this first

50:21

of all The hardware really is

50:24

amazing like it is constructed really well You

50:26

can see that there's tons of thought that

50:28

goes into it very high

50:30

quality hardware I think another

50:33

thing I would bring up would

50:35

be the the actual UI and

50:37

the interaction again That takes a

50:39

lot of software development to happen

50:41

And then lastly the demo

50:43

that they actually had for this too because

50:45

like they are They're investing a lot of

50:47

money into the actual demo experience of this

50:50

too And I thought it was

50:52

actually really cool first of all, you know you

50:54

you have to sign up for a demo through

50:56

Apple comm and you basically get a 30 to

50:58

30 minute demo at an Apple

51:00

store and the Gentleman

51:03

who helped me out with my demo first

51:05

of all He did just such a great

51:07

job like he just like nailed the presentation

51:09

everything like that and they even had this

51:11

like Special iPad with this

51:14

like special interface where they can actually guide you

51:16

through the whole process Did you not do the

51:18

demo at the app? I don't know. No, I

51:20

just I just sort of put the door No,

51:23

he seriously it is. It's like

51:25

a concierge type experience that they have for

51:27

you here So yeah, they'll basically sit they'll

51:29

basically sit you down at the table. They'll

51:31

sit right next to you They have an

51:34

iPad mini there with this special interface that

51:36

they can see what you're seeing and they

51:38

have all these like stats of different Things

51:40

of whatever whatever is going on and they

51:42

basically guide you through the experience and it

51:45

is it was a it was such a

51:47

great experience But again that cost

51:49

money too. So $3,500

51:52

it's I mean, It's a ton of money.

51:54

But At the same time, there's a

51:56

lot that goes into this thing, and

51:59

it's hard for me that justifies consumer.

52:02

Up, but I do see where

52:04

a lot of that money goes.

52:07

Sour. Put it. Yeah. Definitely.

52:09

I think it's it's it's a very very

52:11

high price of for the to useless they

52:13

are gonna stand from a hardware standpoint. how

52:15

yet they're like adding about what a what

52:18

me cameras cost right for example and them

52:20

out of components in some ah mere less

52:22

hundred have cameras right in go Well. I

52:25

suspect there's more sense components of isn't prose

52:27

and that camera by it's he. I don't

52:29

I don't know if I'm going to keep

52:31

mine. I don't have a. Easy.

52:33

Way years of returning aside I probably

52:35

just would sell it here instead. Ah,

52:37

which says and be a problem, but

52:39

it's one of those. I

52:41

looked at eighteen. I was optimistic when

52:43

I first wanted it that we would

52:46

see more sport fitness apps out there

52:48

and some way shape or form a

52:50

leveraging. It's even just initially I never

52:52

time ever grow. Ah but based on

52:54

kind of in one of the things

52:56

Apple really held back on. Publicizing.

52:59

Any details on sweat protection if I

53:01

die in toll. Not. The that

53:03

night before it's it started shipping but the

53:05

morning it's sort of shipping half or am

53:07

i evil it before eight am eastern and

53:09

they were not there at all and I

53:11

was only lit up at roughly eight am.

53:13

the first on be kind of got units

53:15

ah you know in the mail etc so

53:17

they really held back on that's a you

53:19

really didn't know like what's the sweat protection

53:21

always going to be like than the medical

53:23

s three where it's initial defined for sweating

53:25

where they're gonna be something us not time

53:27

for sweating and as gently as apple saying

53:29

it's more not find for sorting them and

53:31

not so. From my use cases

53:33

A in almost finished wondering here am I play

53:36

with them along or and then I'll probably I

53:38

looked up. To. Find someone an answer

53:40

and that wants to buy it happen Because

53:42

I just don't. I don't really have a

53:44

a clear use case for it's. Die.

53:46

Was hoping that would be they're going for or

53:48

how to how my mind changed. I'm if I

53:50

can you find some use for. It's odd but

53:52

it's like if I look at my world as

53:55

one. Can. i justify

53:57

it from a entertainment usage something

53:59

standpoint And like you're saying, like, is

54:01

there some scenario where I'm like, oh, I can

54:03

justify this by itself? And the

54:05

answer is no. And the next question is,

54:08

can I justify it? Like from a business

54:10

ROI perspective, right? And like making views on

54:12

YouTube, etc. And as we said earlier,

54:14

like simple math here says that I have

54:16

to have a video that gets roughly 350 or so

54:18

thousand views. And

54:21

yeah, I think there's certainly viability to make

54:23

this happen over the course of a

54:25

year or so of viewage, etc. But

54:29

that doesn't necessarily mean that that makes sense in

54:31

terms of my overall budget as a business. So

54:33

I don't know. I'm I'm

54:36

interested to see how I think the like,

54:38

as I said, somewhere else, the concept of

54:40

Vision Pro and vision as a product undoubtedly

54:43

will succeed long term for Apple. For

54:46

me as a general consumer, I'm not

54:48

seeing the use case today. For

54:51

me as a techy, that's super cool.

54:54

I just wait for those two things to merge

54:56

into one, right? And that's where I think you'll

54:58

see that mass market option. Well, I think you

55:00

have to apply also the fact that, you know,

55:03

not only are you a normal consumer as well

55:05

as a techy, but your

55:07

life surrounds sports. And we've talked about

55:09

this definitely before. So, you

55:12

know, when you look at a price of a product

55:15

for you and I, like specifically, we look

55:17

at like, or that could be

55:19

a sweet trip to France for a

55:21

week or two. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

55:24

And that brings up another thing for me too,

55:27

is that, you know, being more into sports fitness

55:29

and more about experiences,

55:32

more than things. The

55:34

reason I've never tried one of

55:36

these devices before is because I

55:39

don't want to feel disconnected to

55:41

the world. And I think

55:43

this device is cool just in the sense that

55:45

you have the pass through, you can actually see

55:47

what people are doing. They can see

55:50

your eyes as well, you know, in

55:52

certain scenarios, but you can

55:54

go right if I with it, which

55:56

you shouldn't, by the way. No,

55:59

please don't. Apple Apple like hints at

56:01

not doing it on the goggles when you try

56:03

right? They're like, yeah, I'm gonna be operating a

56:05

vehicle like what's the definition of the vehicle? And

56:09

then if you go onto their site It says very clearly like

56:11

if you dig on the support articles Which I don't think most

56:13

consumers are going digging down and support articles, but it does say

56:15

they're like do not ride a bicycle Like

56:18

and so to be clear I did ride a bicycle in a

56:20

place that there was no one around like literally the

56:22

thing I was most concerned about hitting was a Florida

56:26

panther a bobcat and a gator like those

56:28

were the legit three things I had to

56:30

avoid on this ride Not not other humans

56:32

thankfully. So yeah, don't go riding

56:34

it out on the streets of whatever and don't drive

56:36

a car with it Or all those other things that

56:38

are just I mean the reason why by the way

56:40

You shouldn't do that and this

56:43

actually legitimately happened and I was recording it and

56:45

this is why it happened I wasn't recording on external camera

56:47

But as I was going down the trail at a

56:50

really good clip cuz I was done like shooting some other stuff

56:52

And I was like, I'm just gonna go with it now The

56:55

whole screen went black like literally I am flying along

56:57

the trail and the whole thing just goes black

57:00

and I'm like And I'd

57:02

hit the brakes really quick it stopped and then it

57:04

went back to to light again And it took me

57:06

a while to figure out what it was. It was

57:08

actually a screen recording stopping I had screen recording on

57:11

you can screen record the goggles view and for whatever

57:13

reason at 53 minutes the screen recording ended And when

57:15

the screen recording ends the whole goggles go black for

57:17

like It felt like a

57:19

really long time My guess is that may only been

57:22

half a second or a second or who knows what

57:24

but it was enough that When you're mountain biking that

57:26

you're like, this is the problem But

57:30

you imagine like again, it's you're not you're this

57:32

it's not a glass thing like you're literally even

57:34

the glass Yes, but it's not it's not a

57:37

transparent object. So when the technology shuts off if

57:39

the power is off You're

57:41

in darkness and that's why you should

57:43

not use it in those environments. But

57:45

yeah, I'll be sure to see See

57:47

where it all goes in terms of technology that

57:49

I have experienced lately. They have there's two things

57:52

that come to mind This is probably the coolest

57:54

thing that I've tried in many many

57:56

years interestingly the

57:59

other really cool piece of technology that

58:01

I recently tried was the Wahoo Kickr run.

58:04

Definitely. Yeah, those are, I would say those are probably the tech,

58:06

cool tech things in a while. Yeah. So, I mean, you know,

58:08

you're talking $3,500 for this or $5,000 for that.

58:14

You know, my money's gone. Yeah. But again,

58:16

we're biased, I guess you could say in

58:18

that matter, because this is a sports tech

58:20

channel. I could basically see renting one of

58:22

these. Like if I could go, you know,

58:24

rent one for like a weekend or something

58:26

like that, that would be awesome. Then, how

58:28

much are you talking to her? I can

58:30

write you mine. I

58:32

got you deal. I got you. Yeah,

58:36

I could definitely see, remember,

58:38

like remember back in like

58:40

the, the blockbuster

58:43

days where you could actually like rent a VCR

58:45

or like rent a play. Yeah. Holy

58:47

cow. You're right. I forgot about that.

58:49

Yeah. So like, yeah, so if I

58:51

could like rent one of these, I would love

58:53

to see something like that. And

58:56

that would work perfect for

58:58

me. But lastly, let's talk

59:00

about burritos. Cool. Burritos sounds

59:02

good. I've got nine minutes and 34 seconds left

59:04

on this SD card as an FYI. So we're

59:06

going to have to keep a burrito

59:08

consumption to a relative minimum here. So

59:10

burritos, we started this off, not we,

59:13

the Royal, we Strava

59:15

in Chipotle started a competition at

59:17

the beginning of January, where essentially,

59:19

they had six segments that started

59:21

or ended at Chipotle stores

59:23

in the US and LA, New

59:25

York, Chicago, Colorado,

59:28

Ohio, and Washington DC.

59:31

And these are roughly 300 meter long segments for

59:35

running. And the simple goal

59:37

here is the most repeats of that segment

59:39

one and they won a year's worth of

59:41

supply of Chipotle, which is

59:43

technically classified is 52 weeks worth of

59:46

meals. And so you

59:48

choose what you want there, but you get wasted

59:50

one, one meal per week or the value one

59:52

bill per week, essentially. And

59:55

this was building on Strava's local legends

59:57

feature. So the idea that the most

59:59

repeats It doesn't matter how fast you

1:00:01

win, the fast times did not matter at

1:00:03

all. It was purely the most attempts. And

1:00:05

so things got off to a hot start

1:00:07

in Colorado and Denver there

1:00:10

with what were effectively

1:00:12

just a bunch of university runners

1:00:14

that were like repeat after repeat. Like

1:00:17

on day one they threw down, I don't know,

1:00:19

30 or 40 loops of this thing. And

1:00:21

some of the routes were pretty decent. The Colorado

1:00:24

one was actually a pretty decent route in the

1:00:26

grand scheme of things. So it was horrible. Yep.

1:00:29

It was basically a residential street so it actually wasn't

1:00:31

bad at all. It's original Chipotle by the way, that

1:00:33

was kind of notable. The

1:00:36

LA one was really clean along the beach. Some

1:00:39

of the routes were horrific. The

1:00:41

New York City one was bad but the

1:00:43

Washington DC one was arguably the worst possible

1:00:45

place you could think to run. It

1:00:47

crossed three different intersections along a

1:00:50

300 meter stretch. Major roads

1:00:52

in downtown Washington DC. It's like that was the

1:00:54

worst Chipotle you could have chosen. People

1:00:58

did this over the last month and that

1:01:00

all ended on January 31st after this. And

1:01:04

we saw I think the top one was 1100 repeats

1:01:08

of a segment, insanity in

1:01:10

terms of some of these things. And

1:01:13

that was the Colorado, right? So the

1:01:15

top was actually I think Washington DC of

1:01:17

all things. Oh, was it? The guy did it

1:01:19

there. New York was at

1:01:22

I think just over a thousand or just under a thousand. Let

1:01:25

me pull up the whole list here. Hold on. Here

1:01:27

we go. Yeah, I'd even tried by the way. Like

1:01:29

I live probably only I live about 35 to

1:01:32

40 minutes from the original Chipotle store. And

1:01:36

I basically if I lived a

1:01:38

lot closer, I would have probably tried but it

1:01:41

was just too far away for me to

1:01:43

make repeated and you know, attempts at this.

1:01:45

Yeah. So the top overall was Washington

1:01:47

DC with 1345 repeats, which is insane. In

1:01:53

each one of these winners, each one of these cities got their

1:01:55

own winner. They didn't compete against other cities. And

1:01:57

then there was so Called. Auto

1:02:00

was down at our one thousand

1:02:02

and forty one ah repeats And

1:02:04

then in the Orchid eight hundred

1:02:06

and thirty two repeats. Ah Chicago

1:02:09

at ah six hundred thirteen Repeat.

1:02:11

Keep My Chicago had some horrendous

1:02:13

whether a nurse that the Duffy

1:02:15

so things down. Arm. And

1:02:17

any where the way down to allay,

1:02:19

he added a new story hundred. And.

1:02:22

Sixty Nine repeats. Ah, and it

1:02:24

was like. Ah, That

1:02:26

was that was itching. are aldi woakes

1:02:29

but not not And so I started

1:02:31

going into this i i pull on

1:02:33

numbers I before so was I was

1:02:35

concerned about one sneak attack is that

1:02:37

it was only applicable to public activities

1:02:39

so was concerned that this the club

1:02:41

or smart devious person would be feet.

1:02:44

Rack. Up all these private and behind the

1:02:46

scenes and then move on January thirty first at

1:02:48

like ten pm. they be like boom of other

1:02:50

parts of other all across the board and and

1:02:53

blow up the leaderboard right. I was discern some

1:02:55

I do that are and no one did that.

1:02:57

a Celtic. There was some minor suffer on that

1:02:59

but not enough to impact though. he was er

1:03:02

nurse so ever on the L. He went on

1:03:04

like that's weird, the strongest signal leaderboards. So and

1:03:06

like. Five. People the top with

1:03:08

exactly three hundred sixty nine things on the

1:03:10

guy that can be righteous summer sea by.

1:03:12

Look at him and they haven't run the

1:03:15

segment in weeks and it it'd make more

1:03:17

sense to be him. I was going on

1:03:19

here but whatever. Almost gonna. There's one guy

1:03:21

that appears to be people are congratulating so

1:03:23

this guy must be the winners. Ah I'm.

1:03:26

In at that point I just did my

1:03:28

post and published it and then I got

1:03:30

some some Dmz text messages from these people

1:03:32

on there like. Well. let

1:03:34

me tell you what really happened

1:03:36

to be a story colluded together

1:03:38

to agree to stop at three

1:03:40

hundred sixty nine attempts because there

1:03:42

is a clause in the rules that

1:03:44

up there was a ties all

1:03:46

winners for that segment got the

1:03:48

rules arms in these people even had

1:03:51

the burrito balls to email the

1:03:53

strother pr team under like a fake

1:03:55

name or something and be like

1:03:57

what happens if there is more

1:03:59

than people do we all get it and

1:04:01

they said yes everyone gets it and so this group

1:04:03

of people that didn't know each other I think it

1:04:05

was like two that knew each other from the gym

1:04:07

the rest used Strava's new DM direct messaging feature that

1:04:09

came out a few months ago to DM each other

1:04:12

and be like look do you really want to do

1:04:14

this any longer we can all just stop and greed

1:04:16

to stop at 369 and we'll

1:04:18

all get it and so here is

1:04:20

five people from different walks of

1:04:22

life that didn't know each other that all agreed to

1:04:24

stop at 369 where they were well above

1:04:28

anyone else because everyone else gave

1:04:30

up immediately and they all got a

1:04:32

year's worth of Chipotle like it's absolutely hilarious that

1:04:35

is a work smarter not harder sort of

1:04:37

scenario right there so amazing so I'm hoping

1:04:39

we see this again I hope we see

1:04:42

it in more cities internationally there's there's Chipolas

1:04:44

in London in Paris for example I

1:04:46

think it's a cool it's a cool thing like

1:04:48

it's one of those somebody complained about oh another

1:04:51

another you know commercialization Strava like well

1:04:53

Strava's been commercialized for a decade in

1:04:55

terms of challenges and usually just get

1:04:57

like a little icon you could burrito

1:04:59

it's like all

1:05:02

good yeah I think it's a cool little

1:05:04

promotion good job girl oh yeah no

1:05:06

and there's there's other promotions too like like what

1:05:08

we were mentioning earlier like I competed

1:05:10

in a Chipotle consistent

1:05:12

consistency challenge or something like that we

1:05:14

got a free you know block up

1:05:16

on so definitely sign up for those

1:05:18

challenges so so yeah that's gonna wrap

1:05:20

up this week's episode of the Bitfile

1:05:22

podcast so next week kind

1:05:24

of grab bag of things

1:05:26

that we're gonna talk about we did

1:05:29

not talk about winter training last week or

1:05:31

this week because we had extra stuff to

1:05:33

talk about I think we're gonna bring that

1:05:35

up next week and we also are gonna

1:05:37

respond to some user questions

1:05:39

that have come from the internet

1:05:41

so feel free to hit us

1:05:44

up on Twitter Instagram whatever to

1:05:47

ask us certain questions that you want to certain

1:05:49

topics that you want to have covered on the

1:05:51

podcast comment section below as well too yeah to

1:05:53

give us some extra topics to talk about they're

1:05:55

gonna be really interesting so yeah anything else

1:05:57

for you this week right no

1:05:59

I think that's That's it. We've got two minutes

1:06:01

and 22 suckers left. So I think we're

1:06:03

cutting it then good to wrap it tight

1:06:05

before the SD card Crumbs and we lose

1:06:08

things. Yep. All right. Awesome. Well, thank everyone

1:06:10

for for listening appreciate it and see you

1:06:12

next week. See ya