0:00

it's

0:00

it's so nice out there out there

0:02

in the mexican markets by chili stretch

0:04

in the sun, high in the mountains are

0:06

between backcountry skis and kids doing

0:08

the first snow plow will next

0:10

to the pool after a long day of forgetting,

0:12

what day it is to

0:15

get out there and come home or

0:17

austin us that went away and when

0:19

you save on travel is an expedia member, he

0:22

can travel even more it's so nice

0:24

out that celeste guy expedia

0:27

travel time to fly seaside

0:29

the details

0:41

picture this the school bell rings

0:43

and it's lunchtime you've already spent

0:45

all morning in classroom learning long

0:47

divisions and you're in the mood for

0:49

a treat you , up

0:51

your lunch box and you're greeted by something

0:53

sweet and delicious delicious

0:56

little debbie snack cakes nothing

0:58

better rate

1:00

nothing with little debbie cakes or any other stockade

1:03

is that beneath me because i have inhaled

1:05

pretty much all of them

1:08

and you wouldn't just eat him at school for

1:10

lot of us little debbie snack cakes

1:13

immediately bring back our childhoods

1:16

maybe it's visiting grandma's house grandma's

1:18

getting one of those treats their peanut butter

1:20

way for bars honey buns are their

1:22

signature oatmeal cream by

1:24

repayment not hague the means of fun a soldier

1:27

that baked en su every single one

1:29

of them mean i have memories based

1:31

around zoc take that st back to my

1:33

great grandmother says going you know

1:35

as a trial going through our house and her

1:37

opening her door into getting as a little

1:39

debbie take

1:46

the very concept of the snack cakes

1:48

a miniature baked good in plastic

1:50

wrap

1:51

once a very novel concept

1:55

and , it all traces

1:57

back to back feeling family business

2:00

in chattanooga tennessee

2:04

this is the food built america stories

2:06

of innovation taste and good eats

2:09

today , tell the tale of a small cakes

2:12

with a big story tracing the

2:14

mckee families rise from small

2:16

beginnings to a multi million

2:18

dollar company i'm your host

2:20

jonathan hurst

2:25

the story

2:27

of these famous snack cakes traces

2:29

back to a young married couple named

2:31

ruth and ot mickey they

2:33

were college sweethearts that

2:35

southern junior college and tennessee you

2:38

couldn't have been more opposite nobody

2:40

would businessman came from family

2:42

that worked hard says christopher erskine

2:45

an assistant professor of secondary history

2:47

and social studies education at athens

2:49

state university

2:51

lot of americans particular the south came

2:53

from farming backgrounds add

2:55

odie mickey is adopted very young age

2:58

and he struggles his family struggles

3:00

things could be challenging for odie mickey

3:03

he does it read there's

3:05

a real well he later discovers the diagnosed

3:07

with dyslexia be stutters and

3:09

so he's got a lot of hurdles to overcome

3:12

and he's full of energy is always

3:15

running places he's full of

3:17

ideas and he's really good

3:19

is kind a natural salesman

3:21

and his wife ruth she was

3:23

soft spoken it

3:24

was clear she was methodical and meticulous

3:27

about business the good insects

3:29

she was patient she was quiet add

3:33

i think she probably would have taken some

3:35

like routes to married the only so and

3:37

ruth was she was a guiding hand

3:39

but she was often in the backseat of

3:41

these decisions there were no they

3:43

were the two were solid pair

3:46

if they graduated the late nineteen twenties

3:48

the to clearly had some ambition

3:50

and drive they didn't always hit

3:52

home runs

3:56

ruth is a teacher and she finds a

3:58

job teaching oh dear

4:00

not happy he's working long

4:02

hours for little pay and and relieve

4:04

a lot less pay the truth is making and

4:06

so he wants to move to different

4:08

places and was ruth to leave her teaching

4:10

job as she does make

4:12

, meet ot sold cars cars

4:15

the farm manager to deliver to

4:18

they save the money and they had their their money in

4:20

the bag but the bank goes under the depression

4:22

heads in bank as another news every day and

4:24

so a couple years later now he has kids

4:27

and he still trying to find trying words

4:30

and he has a cow and car

4:32

a whippet car and nineteen twenty eight model with

4:34

it and his his second child

4:37

is born and that child the doctor

4:39

was of course the charts and he first for

4:42

delivering that babies and out

4:44

he doesn't have any money he has a cow

4:46

and a car and he gives the doctor choice

4:48

i can pay you but alas be the the cow

4:50

the car as a or chooses

4:52

the cow in the early nineteen thirties

4:55

the use their car the one the doctor

4:57

hadn't chosen as collateral and

4:59

bought a shop called collateral cookie company

5:01

to chattanooga it was cookie

5:03

risk erskine says this is

5:05

a struggling small businessmen at the

5:07

tail end the depression who

5:09

is doing everything he can survive

5:14

the bakery gave odie an opportunity

5:16

to experiment ot wasn't just

5:19

experimenting with running a business he

5:21

was experimenting with the product to

5:23

there were no d and ruth mccabe thought

5:26

this bakery it was just hard cookies that

5:28

were being produced odie mickey comes

5:30

in and begins to

5:32

evolve the product which is very characteristic

5:34

of ot mickey and begins

5:36

to experiment with cream and between the cookies

5:38

the

5:39

cream and between the cookies the cookies

5:41

became softer set of having to

5:43

hard shells me outside this

5:45

was a two year option and

5:47

he realizes the he's hit on something

5:50

sounds like little debbie oatmeal cream

5:52

pies the story right not

5:55

really

5:58

the time jack cookie company so

6:00

well that odie wanted to expand

6:02

business he needed help the

6:04

we invited his father in law to join

6:07

the business but father and i didn't

6:09

share odysseys view on expansion

6:11

the wanted to stay small the

6:13

the to agreed to split the business and

6:15

and nineteen thirty seven odeon

6:17

roof move down to charlotte north carolina

6:20

for the open jax cookie company of charlotte

6:23

students were going well until

6:25

world war two rationing forced business

6:27

expenses to skyrocket his

6:30

dad grew though that by nineteen

6:32

fifty he was forced to sell fifty one

6:34

percent the bakery three men rex

6:36

calico leon bishop john

6:39

bar the get cash influx

6:41

in company habitat odeon

6:43

ruth were now beholden to the other partners

6:45

in company calico barton

6:47

and bishop and they now have

6:49

control over what that product line is

6:52

as is as mickey's

6:54

signature product the oatmeal cream pie

6:56

is on the chopping block here

7:02

other partners decided weren't all that thrilled

7:04

about concept soft oatmeal cookie

7:06

sandwiches the three partners

7:08

that on fifty one percent of the company come

7:10

in and they say we don't want oatmeal cookie to be soft

7:13

we want the oatmeal cookie to be hard chris

7:15

there something else one of the owners

7:18

rex calico

7:19

basically wanted the named jax cookies

7:21

to use from south

7:23

and certainly as a jax

7:25

cookies owner rex cowlick it wants

7:27

to monopolize that name so

7:29

rest calico bought only mickey

7:31

out for about one hundred thousand dollars which

7:34

was less the book value in the equipment

7:36

warehouses worth more than what that when rest

7:38

garlic a paid as that tells something about the

7:40

financial struggles the ruth and odie we're having at

7:42

that time

7:43

ruth and odie gave up bakery

7:45

and for a while there cookie sandwiches

7:47

in nineteen fifty one

7:50

think it's a fair characterization to

7:52

think about o d as as

7:54

failed businessmen by the late

7:56

nineteen forties or the

7:58

nineteen fifties

8:00

until a silver lining emerged

8:02

that senior

8:08

sign i have some sunny

8:10

mexican market sleepy

8:14

then the garden expedia member

8:16

hey more things the

8:19

stadium major channel and

8:21

reply season

8:33

at this point in the late nineteen forties

8:36

the mckees had faced a number

8:38

of hurdles including of course losing

8:40

their bakery in north carolina

8:42

that's when silver lining emerged course

8:46

it didn't look like silver lining until much later

8:48

that's because ruth's brother see thought

8:50

was in trouble he been running his own

8:52

family bakery business called kings

8:54

bakery in chattanooga tennessee was

8:57

also ale too ill to run as

8:59

bakery and so when ruth the know

9:01

the come back to chattanooga they

9:04

began working for roots brother cecil

9:06

king

9:07

for all the as after they'd sold the north carolina

9:09

bakery odeon ruth had considered retiring

9:12

laying low

9:14

the

9:16

kings bakery would prove to be an opportunity

9:18

for ot he wasn't really

9:21

the kind guy that just sit around and retire

9:23

sell the family business the

9:25

saw chance to reinvent himself and

9:28

, mickey is got too much energy too

9:30

much drives a he has to be tinkering

9:33

with something all time time

9:35

so i think a d was excited to go

9:37

back and take over another babe ruth ruth

9:39

may have been little a but

9:41

if he was she probably would have

9:44

have handled that by been little

9:46

more assertive with odie in the financial

9:48

decisions that bakery that make so

9:51

kings bakery would continue as a family

9:53

business selling things like cookies

9:55

and layered cakes primarily to grocery

9:57

stores and in nineteen fifty

9:59

four the and ruth bakery

10:01

from see soccer

10:06

around the time route brought her son ellsworth

10:08

to come in and look to the books but

10:10

when he did found a huge

10:13

surprise i'm he wasn't

10:15

doing so this is where

10:17

ellsworth begins to the

10:19

analyze why are they not making a profit

10:22

this is the nineteen fifties people and money

10:24

and we're moving to the suburbs the way

10:26

americans shop for food changed the

10:28

time when the supermarket really took off

10:32

everything you needed was in one building

10:34

one stop shop

10:38

the nineteen fifty thirty five percent of all

10:40

food were sold in america fourteen thousand

10:43

supermarkets

10:44

there were six thousand national brands choose from

10:46

that's a lot of branch this

10:48

is brian simon a history professor at temple

10:51

university well ,

10:53

mean the key food

10:55

chains and cannot be exaggerated

10:58

exaggerated fifties as a supermarket the

11:00

supermarket changes the way

11:02

people shop it seems is the food available

11:04

and changes pricing right

11:06

and think about it most

11:09

people shot everyday if

11:12

they didn't and really small kind

11:14

of refrigeration

11:16

why go to this highly specialized

11:18

mom and pop a great when could just grab loaf of

11:20

bread the supermarket because

11:22

supermarkets were so front and center the

11:24

keys bakery products were essentially sold to

11:26

supermarkets and point kick boxers these

11:29

are what are called private label products

11:31

the private label is when

11:33

when a bakery kings baker your

11:35

mickey bakery makes product

11:38

and they will try to sell their products all

11:40

of the stores around and whether that bread bakeries

11:42

or a grocery stores or whoever

11:45

wants to buy the product in a commercially

11:48

and they will just put in box and

11:50

the and they they will either slap that label on

11:52

that the local bakery or in a grocery store

11:54

label or the grocery store bakery

11:56

will slap own label on but they get it in an

11:59

empty box

12:02

it really matter who mickey bakery was

12:05

they

12:05

were essentially an anonymous company simply

12:07

selling the baked goods to grocery stores

12:10

there wasn't a chance to build any sort of name recognition

12:12

or loyalty the

12:13

mimicking bakery is just a bakery the selling

12:16

see whoever will buy products and put their label

12:18

on and they're losing money and ot mickey

12:20

does not want drop his product

12:22

for now the really outbreak there's

12:26

another reason profit had such razor thin

12:28

margin layer cake specifically

12:31

were expensive to produce a

12:33

lot of work to wrap and box layer

12:35

cake and he begins

12:37

push to in the layer cake

12:39

production line because

12:42

in his words we were losing money

12:44

on every single layer cake we were making

12:47

despite all this owed he was reluctant to scrap

12:50

the layer cake the know ellsworth was

12:52

pretty committed to the idea americans

12:54

are ellsworth is only like his mid to late

12:56

twenties at this point he's just a kid you

12:58

know hear me what is he now that

13:00

ellsworth knew what he was doing

13:05

and nineteen sixty ot came up with a big

13:08

well a small idea

13:10

what if you made cakes tiny

13:13

individually wrapped was perfect

13:15

chance for the oatmeal cream pies to shine

13:18

as tiny cake did well in a single

13:20

serve packaging packaging the single

13:22

source that cake is a great financial decision

13:25

financial it's not as labor

13:27

intensive as wrapping

13:30

or box seen a layer cake of

13:32

so it's not your for cake but as you're single or cake

13:34

with little frosting on the middle it's

13:36

mincer second to mimic what it's mincer

13:39

cake would be is just single serve it

13:41

made sense financially help and keys

13:43

reach their goals they were losing money

13:46

on the layered case but they're making

13:48

they're making of money on the five it

13:50

says that products

13:56

there was another reason these

13:58

snack cakes did so well

14:00

up until now baking had a big preservation

14:02

issue says baking x for ashley

14:04

halt

14:05

that's always struggle with a

14:07

good at has a very short

14:10

they'll fly if you want to use natural products

14:12

and if someone gets your take

14:14

on the day as dry they might

14:17

go back to give it a second shot well

14:19

you got whatever you plan to keep

14:21

as fresh as possible

14:23

the snack cakes on the other hand are much

14:25

easier to preserve

14:27

before they came in the cookies were not individually

14:29

wrapped they were they were just put into bag and

14:31

they were sold into back once

14:34

they come in they now have to bring

14:36

in a rapper that will wrap each of these individual

14:39

cookies if they're if with cream in

14:41

the middle

14:42

i'm like to layer cake that needs to shipped out the day of

14:44

the single serving snacks could last longer

14:46

and wrapped in plastic and remember

14:48

plastics were a relatively new thing at time

14:51

the birther plastics really good way to the development

14:53

of packaged baked goods where

14:55

they had a lag app is that he could

14:58

distributor product to what

15:00

further end of the earth because it wasn't

15:02

much pressure supply

15:04

going back a bit by late nineteen fifties

15:06

everything was coming up roses for ot

15:08

and respect the

15:11

other small sandwich cookies and they have some ideas

15:14

about how to distribute them make some money

15:16

but what they didn't have was have way to expand

15:19

now around this time southern missionary

15:22

college now known as southern

15:24

adventist university made me

15:26

keys and offer lease

15:28

, ruth a space to use as

15:30

bakery all they need and returned

15:33

rent and jobs for the college students

15:35

they began doing their calculations

15:38

for how much you because them to get loan

15:40

to build a new bakery in chattanooga

15:43

versus what they

15:45

would pay southern back annually

15:48

to least the bakery and

15:50

it was far cheaper to lease a bakery

15:52

in college day that it would be to get alone

15:54

and build bakery in chattanooga and

15:56

so they went back to southern instead of

15:58

yeah we'll we'll take your

16:00

the or so , nineteen fifty

16:02

seven construction began on the key bakery

16:04

bakery was big moment for moment they

16:07

were finally big enough to expand and

16:09

build a new headquarters in

16:11

fact they've gone through a number of names

16:13

to the course of their lives but coming

16:15

up with the right name would be the

16:17

key to their wild success

16:22

they still didn't have a strong brand

16:24

they were known as both kings and

16:26

mckees bakery it's

16:28

kind of in between because there's a period

16:30

of which they begin calling themselves mckee

16:33

but they don't repay them the kings trucks and

16:35

so they're producing kind of underboss labels

16:38

the that's a protracted it's

16:40

not like as of the overnight bag

16:43

with your name finally on the building they needed

16:45

a new spin there's christopher erskine

16:47

again most people that you ask

16:50

who with mickey family

16:52

most people have no idea and

16:54

so it was really that that brandy in in

16:56

the nineteen sixties the turn them into this

16:58

national brand nervous

17:01

in a key family of course but erskine

17:03

st wrong we know that little girl on package

17:05

she's iconic the

17:07

she's debbie not oduya ruth mickey

17:10

the how do we come to associate his family

17:13

with little debbie remember this point

17:15

the company was still selling cakes the bakeries

17:17

without label

17:22

the wow odie mickey was off looking for way

17:24

to make this brand stand out

17:26

the packaging supply or visit his his office

17:28

his name was bob mosier and

17:31

, mosier and odie mickey begin

17:33

said kind of exchange ideas on

17:35

how that branding might look and

17:37

bob mosier says well you know what about

17:39

the names your grandkids so ot list

17:41

of them off in addis ababa johnny

17:43

and linda and debbie debbie

17:46

vamos years in a little debbie that has

17:48

ring to ring little debbie

17:51

it daughter it was light

17:53

bulb moment the girl you see

17:55

on all the boxes that odeon ruth's

17:57

granddaughter debbie captured in time

18:00

just as she looked in nineteen sixty and

18:03

now people around the everyone

18:05

of united states are almost or where united states know

18:07

since his little debbie pictures one of most

18:09

iconic you know images

18:11

in in american culture today of all

18:13

because of this one moment the know these

18:15

office a very pulls out picture

18:21

on august twenty third nineteen sixty

18:23

the brand was born the new

18:25

branding was quite successful there

18:27

is this initial phase where they are selling

18:30

little debbie the oboe cream pie in

18:32

a little debbie branded family pack and

18:35

, selling them and

18:37

a plane box that just says mchugh

18:39

your kings and , davies

18:42

far l sell those that

18:44

are in the the plane box the

18:47

are kind says this was a game changer

18:50

it turns everything around there is there

18:52

this goes from a private label bakery

18:54

in the fifties that is making

18:57

cakes under the mckee curry

18:59

label and art mickey bakery

19:01

is making the cakes and kings bakeries making

19:03

the case under both names and

19:05

sending them off to a local bakeries

19:08

for all of the nineteen fifties and then and nineteen sixty

19:11

this company there's an about

19:13

face and completely changes their

19:15

profits went through the roof

19:17

it launched

19:20

family pack add initially the

19:22

family pack is it's branded

19:24

not as little debbie it's branded as mckee

19:26

your kings bakery and it

19:29

bows and odie realizes

19:31

there is something here we

19:34

, to capitalize on this family back

19:36

you know family packs family box

19:38

of say box of so cakes all

19:41

individually packaged and ready to stick

19:43

in a lunchbox or purse they

19:45

went all in on snacks and

19:48

then you have to to build this customer

19:50

loyalty over

19:52

a generation so that generations

19:54

of kids today and adults as well can

19:57

look back have memories of having

19:59

little debbie their lunch pail are

20:01

having little debbie's you know on

20:03

the website or having little debbie's

20:05

in car on a road trips or

20:07

at christmas time and having christmas cake

20:11

the becoming national brand i think

20:13

was really essential moment

20:16

over the nineteen sixties but it's a household

20:18

name and american icon much more

20:20

after the nineteen sixties because generations

20:22

begins have grown up with and

20:24

they never looked back

20:30

darn it a long time ago little

20:33

, granddad woke up and says he

20:35

knows i think i'll make the world

20:38

a tree they made another big

20:40

move the nineteen eighties

20:41

that decade the company lapse into supermarkets

20:44

convenience stores where we often see

20:46

the snack cakes today they

20:48

got into the world of advertising including memorable

20:50

ads with impersonator rich little

20:53

in the late nineteen eighties little

20:55

, debbie great snacks

20:57

are snacks and your don't have

20:59

to be rich summer

21:03

the day little debbie has expanded

21:06

it's many also clean

21:10

wait how he

21:13

my mood

21:22

little debbie is is is an icon

21:24

that all americans recognize and even

21:27

all americans haven't had it in a americans

21:29

recognize that little debbie image

21:32

as interview talk to people around

21:34

the country they will tell you yes i had little debbie

21:36

the summer camp yes i had little debbie the my lunch

21:39

box every day or yes

21:41

had little debbie's when i was taking my lunch break on

21:43

the construction site over

21:45

, next several decades mickey foods

21:47

would grow both and location and

21:50

in revenue today the company

21:52

has more than one billion dollars in annual sales

21:54

and as moved on to a new generation

21:56

of mickey ownership now the corporations

21:59

run by for a bruise and out his grandchildren

22:02

it is the third generation of family ownership

22:05

my daughter success or the great idea

22:07

of course but , also a couple

22:09

that never stop believing the business and

22:13

in each other

22:17

everybody

22:17

knows little debbie's and may maybe they don't like that

22:19

maybe they don't like the nanny barber maybe they're like

22:21

the oatmeal cream pies are so much a variety

22:24

that little debbie has something for everybody

22:26

that they have a snack for you

22:32

if you like the podcast channel love

22:35

watching the food that built america tv

22:37

series on the history channel god history

22:40

dat can to find out how you

22:42

can watch the food that built america

22:44

today the , the built

22:46

america is hosted by me jonathan hirsch

22:49

hirsch history channel our executive producers

22:51

our jesse cats mary donahue

22:54

and jim cascara are supervising

22:56

producer is lucky me lucky from

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the on media our executive producers me

23:01

series is produced by muna danish and

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muna michigan are associate producers

23:05

michigan are chobe faroe face

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our editor mara walt samantha

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out and is our production manager alexis

23:12

martinez alexis our podcast coordinator

23:14

sound bar and josh han our podcast coordinator

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engineers music from ludo sessions

23:19

and epidemic sound and that choi watching

23:21

by naomi bar the food that built

23:23

america was originally produced by lucky eat

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tv for the history channel