0:00

We were relentless in our pursuit

0:02

of excellence. We went from two

0:04

stars in the New York Times to three stars in the

0:06

New York Times to four stars. And then became the first

0:08

restaurant in the history of the Michelin Guide to

0:10

go from one to three stars in a single year. We

0:13

were on top of New York. Number

0:15

one in the world's 15 best

0:18

restaurants list from New York, it's

0:20

11 times a month. We

0:24

became number one because we made the choice

0:26

to be as unreasonable in pursuit of how

0:28

we made people feel as every other

0:30

restaurant on the list was in pursuit of

0:32

simply food they were serving. And

0:35

so our journey was a

0:37

ton of trial and error

0:39

around investing as much intention

0:41

and creativity into making people

0:43

feel seen as

0:46

we had historically into the product

0:48

we were selling them. Before

0:54

we dive in, I want to extend

0:56

a warm invitation to join our thriving

0:58

founder community. It's the perfect place to

1:01

discover more insightful interviews aimed at helping

1:03

you build, grow and scale your business.

1:05

So don't forget to hit subscribe. Your

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support means the absolute world to us.

1:10

Thank you so much for subscribing. Let's

1:12

get stuck in today's discussion. Hear

1:15

the stories, learn the

1:17

proven methods and accelerate your

1:19

growth and future through entrepreneurship.

1:22

Welcome to the Founder Podcast with

1:24

Nathan Chan. All

1:27

right, so Will, thank you so much for

1:30

taking the time to speak with me

1:32

today. The first question that I want to ask

1:34

you is what

1:36

did the first 60 days look like when

1:40

you started Thank You? Oh, when I

1:42

started Thank You. That's

1:48

a less linear answer than

1:52

I would give for some

1:54

reason. I

1:56

would give for some of the other things I've started. I

2:01

sold my last company, make

2:04

it nice, the company that included a little

2:06

medicine park and the nomad and our restaurant

2:08

clarages about three months

2:11

before COVID hit. And

2:15

I imagine many people out there, and by

2:17

the way, that was extraordinary timing, not due

2:19

to some sort of knowledge

2:22

of the world pending collapse. It just happened to

2:25

work out that way. And

2:28

like anyone out there who has

2:30

spent their life building something and

2:33

then sold it, I think many people

2:35

can relate to this. I immediately had

2:37

an identity crisis where I

2:40

wasn't sure who I was if I

2:42

was not a restaurateur in that moment, who

2:44

I was without restaurants. It was hard to

2:46

wrap my head around it. So manically,

2:50

quickly, aggressively, I started to put together

2:53

a team, raise a ton of capital

2:56

and get ready to open a bunch more restaurants. And

2:59

I was literally, this is not an

3:01

exaggeration, one week away from signing three

3:03

restaurant leases and the corporate office lease

3:05

when COVID hit. Moved

3:10

with my family from our apartment in the city to our

3:13

place up in the country for what

3:16

we thought was going to be a few weeks. Obviously,

3:18

as anyone who's been alive the

3:20

last few years can attest to, it ended

3:23

up becoming a few months and then much

3:25

longer than that. And

3:27

in the beginning, I worked

3:31

intensely to keep everything that I had

3:33

just started launching alive. And

3:36

then one day, realized

3:38

I didn't want to anymore. I

3:42

think that anyone who has looked

3:47

back with real vulnerability or honesty

3:50

at what transpired during COVID, listen,

3:52

many people lost either money

3:55

or people. We all suffered in some

3:57

way, shape or form. But if you

3:59

look at at it in the right

4:01

way, we all learned something or benefited

4:03

some way from that moment of adversity.

4:07

The gift that COVID gave me was

4:10

the grace and the

4:12

space to decide that

4:14

I didn't need to go back to

4:16

doing what I had always done. Instead,

4:18

it gave me the grace to decide

4:21

what I wanted to do next. And

4:24

with that time, I decided to write my book.

4:28

And that book has just kind

4:30

of slowly led to so much

4:33

more, whether stuff

4:36

in media or the growth of my conference

4:38

or the advent of Thank You where we're

4:40

working with big companies. But it was not

4:42

like Thank You is not a company that

4:44

I raised a bunch of money for and launched one day. It's

4:48

been a slow evolution over

4:50

the past couple years. And

4:53

so I don't even know what I would call the first 60

4:55

days of this one. So

4:58

you got me really

5:00

curious. What

5:03

happened when you realized you didn't want

5:05

to do those things that you

5:07

were doing and getting in, you know, starting

5:09

your restaurants? Like where did that come from?

5:12

What happened? It just was

5:14

it just time to reflect or? Well, not

5:16

to be clear what I I'm not decided

5:18

that I don't want to open new restaurants.

5:20

I think we have a tendency when we're

5:22

used to doing something to run

5:24

back and continue to do that. It's

5:27

not often that people have the wherewithal

5:29

to really just stop

5:31

doing everything for long enough that they

5:33

have the space to choose what they

5:36

want to do next. That

5:38

was the big decision I made was

5:40

to recognize that who

5:43

I am is not what I do. And I

5:45

could actually accomplish more in the long term if

5:47

I did a bit less in the short term.

5:51

And so yeah, it was the choice to

5:55

actually think about what

5:57

I wanted life to look like as opposed to

6:00

to just

6:03

allowing life to always look the

6:05

same as it had. And

6:09

was this because the

6:12

hospitality industry is

6:14

so intense that it's hard to take a

6:17

holiday and you didn't have much time to

6:19

think and disconnect? Is that

6:21

part of it? No. No,

6:23

I mean, listen, I've talked to so many people who sell

6:26

their company and before they're even out of their company, they've

6:28

already decided what they wanted to do next. When

6:32

you're a high performer, when you're an overachiever,

6:34

the idea of just not doing anything for

6:36

any measure of time is not even something

6:38

that very many people consider. As

6:42

I do with restaurants, I think anyone across

6:45

disciplines can relate to the story

6:47

I'm telling. And

6:50

sometimes I never would have made the choice

6:52

to stop doing something. I needed COVID to

6:54

stop the world from long enough that I

6:56

had no choice but to. Okay.

7:00

So, I guess the reason I asked that

7:02

question around what the first 60 days looked like was

7:04

thank you. Was

7:06

our community really struggles with what that

7:08

first 60 days looks like? So it's

7:11

always really powerful

7:13

to hear from someone

7:16

or founders that we interviewed that have

7:18

made it out the other side and have built something

7:20

of true worth and significance. Maybe we could talk about

7:22

11 Madison Park. Like,

7:25

what are the first 60 days

7:27

look like there? I mean, the

7:29

first 60 days of any new

7:32

restaurant I've opened, I mean, there's

7:34

some of the most electrifying,

7:36

exhausting, energizing, exciting and frustrating

7:38

days imaginable.

7:45

You spend all this time developing a plan.

7:47

You have a very clear idea

7:49

of exactly what things are going to look like and

7:51

how they're going to work. And then

7:53

invariably nothing goes the way you thought

7:55

it would. are

8:00

more struggles to cope with than

8:02

there are wins to celebrate. And

8:08

I've opened a lot of restaurants in my life.

8:10

And so whether it's analogous

8:12

to childbirth, where you'll remember how good it

8:14

felt to hold the baby in your arms,

8:16

and you forget all the pain that preceded

8:18

that moment, or whether

8:21

it's because, I

8:25

mean, there are few things that

8:27

feel better than how

8:29

bonded the team is

8:31

after an opening. In

8:33

restaurants, we have turnover, right? We employ

8:36

a lot of people. And

8:38

invariably, six months after a restaurant's opened,

8:41

the team looks different than it did

8:43

when it opened. Some people don't make

8:45

it. It's too intense. Some people didn't

8:50

opt out on their own accord. They just

8:52

didn't have the chops to deliver what was

8:54

required. But

8:58

there is no team vibe

9:00

as powerfully connective

9:05

as the one that exists when you go

9:07

through an opening together. Because I believe

9:12

all of the adversity that comes on those

9:14

early days just brings people closer together. I

9:19

love it. I mean, I love every opening I've ever been a

9:21

part of. Then, I mean, we

9:23

could also talk about the 60 days after I

9:25

was given the opportunity to buy 11 Madison Park

9:27

before I started opening restaurants when I actually started

9:30

my company. Let's talk about that.

9:32

Here's the thing. I've come to learn that

9:35

no one actually knows what they're doing until

9:37

they actually do it. And

9:40

I think that's an incredibly liberating thing, right?

9:42

I think so many people don't start their

9:45

own company because they don't think they're ready

9:47

to do it. And then once you actually

9:49

spend enough time talking to people who have

9:51

started their own companies, it becomes

9:54

pretty evident pretty quickly that no one had

9:56

a clue what they were doing when they

9:59

started. I

10:03

had been an employee my entire life and now I

10:05

had to figure out how to raise a bunch of

10:07

capital and source a bunch of debt and

10:10

start an entire accounting department with

10:12

a finance team and an HR

10:14

department. I

10:17

have an optimist memory so I rarely remember

10:20

the struggles. I think that goes back to

10:22

the whole childbirth metaphor. But

10:26

I liken experiences like that to being

10:29

at the top of a double diamond

10:32

ski slope. Where

10:35

the biggest decision you make doesn't

10:39

happen when you're already going down the

10:41

mountain. It happens the moment you press

10:43

your poles into the snow and do

10:45

that last push that begins the descent.

10:49

That's the biggest decision. So once

10:51

you've made that, when

10:53

you're not walking back up the mountain, you're skiing

10:55

the rest of the way down and you may

10:57

be battered and bruised by the time you get

10:59

down there but you will get down. One

11:02

way or another. So I think actually the

11:04

first day is the most important day. The

11:06

other 59 are

11:08

just a bunch of roadblocks and speed bumps. Tell

11:11

me about transforming 11 Madison Park. What

11:14

did that look like? Any stories? Any

11:19

crazy things that you could share? When

11:21

I got to 11 Madison Park in

11:24

2006, it was a middling brasserie. My

11:31

dude, I worked there for a while before I bought the

11:33

restaurant. The

11:36

food was good but not great. The

11:38

service was friendly

11:41

but not very precise but our dining room. Our

11:43

dining room was truly one of the most beautiful in

11:45

the world. And I

11:47

was brought in as a part of the team that was charged with

11:49

elevating the restaurant and the experience that it could live up to the

11:51

rim itself. Now

11:53

I'm at first like anyone when charged with making

11:56

something better and doubled it down in our pursuit

11:58

of excellence. In

12:00

the kitchen, we hired cooks that

12:02

had worked in some of the best restaurants

12:04

in America. We started sourcing better ingredients, introducing

12:07

new techniques. We went from a tasting menu

12:09

or an a la carte menu to

12:11

a tasting menu, such that we could focus

12:13

more effort on fewer plates of food. In the dining

12:16

room, we did a lot of the same. Hired

12:19

some of the best servers, removed

12:22

tables, bought fancier plates and glasses

12:24

and silverware. We were

12:26

relentless in our pursuit of excellence.

12:30

And within a few years, it started to work. We went from

12:32

two stars in the New York Times to three stars in the

12:34

New York Times to four stars, which

12:36

is the most stars. We went

12:38

from zero Michelin stars to one Michelin star that

12:40

became the first restaurant in the history of the

12:42

Michelin guide to go from one to three

12:44

stars in a single year. We

12:47

were on top of New York. We were feeling ourselves.

12:50

And then one day, I went into the restaurant

12:52

to go through my normal morning routine, said

12:55

hi to the cooks, said hi to the servers, made myself

12:58

a coffee, went to the back, started checking mail, and I

13:00

stumbled on a letter. And on the

13:02

upper left hand corner, it said the world's 50 best

13:04

restaurants. And

13:07

this is a moment, anyone out

13:10

there has had these moments that you

13:12

can recall, like every part of it

13:14

so vividly because it was that impactful

13:16

to you in your career. And

13:19

this is one of those for me because that list has

13:21

become very important. It's

13:23

the first of its kind, the first to rank every

13:25

restaurant on the planet against one another. Which

13:28

for restaurants like ours that achieved every

13:30

accolade in our region gave

13:33

us something more to aspire towards.

13:37

So I've ripped up on the letter and it's like congratulations, you've

13:39

been added to the list of the 50 best restaurants in

13:41

the world. Come to London at gin for the ceremony. And

13:44

obviously we went now the 50

13:46

best are a lot like the Oscars, right? You

13:48

go with this larger than life auditorium. You're

13:51

in a room filled with your heroes.

13:53

You're wearing your nicest tuxedo, but they're

13:56

different from the Oscars. And one significant way at

13:58

the Oscars, if you're in. nominated for

14:00

an award when they get to your category, you

14:02

really want them to call your name.

14:05

Here, if you're in the room, you know you're one of the 50

14:07

best in the world. You just don't know where on the list you

14:09

fall until you get there. They're sort of 50, they count down to

14:11

one. Here you're desperate that they

14:13

don't call your name for as long as possible.

14:16

I remember we had a science seating and

14:19

something about me, I liked to game up.

14:21

I pretty much everything in life. I think

14:23

it's one of my superpowers as a leader

14:25

because I don't care how much you like your job,

14:27

it will always be more fun to play than it

14:29

will be to work. People

14:32

have asked me how I challenge my team to get better and

14:34

better with each passing year. I always

14:36

say very simply, I just

14:38

made as many elements of the work as possible

14:40

feel like a game. I

14:43

know when I was ever played a game, they liked playing it, the more

14:45

you play, the better you get. But

14:47

I do like to game up everything and so I looked at where

14:49

we were sitting relative to where the people who come in were one

14:51

through five the year before we're sitting to try to guess where on

14:53

the list we were going to fall. And

14:56

I think I guess number 35. Now

14:59

listen, I'm sure because there must have been some like

15:01

the normal preamble, the welcomes, the thank you for coming,

15:03

it's from the big debonair British MC at the front

15:05

of the room before they started but I don't remember

15:08

any of them. All I remember was him saying, let's

15:10

kick it off at number 50, a

15:12

new restaurant from New York City, 11 Madison

15:14

Park. And I was like fuck. We'd

15:18

come in dead last. It turns out the science seating has

15:20

nothing to do with where you fall on the list by

15:22

the way. But they can have

15:24

a camera trained on you

15:26

so they can project the image of your reaction in

15:28

front of the entire room. It's what everyone else would

15:31

pretend to be happy and I was

15:34

looking like I'd just gotten kicked in the groin. We

15:40

were mortified, just so embarrassed. We left the party

15:42

early, went back to the hotel, started going through

15:44

the stages of grief. It's

15:49

anger and I do like to

15:51

dwell on anger for a moment

15:53

because I think we're in a

15:55

cultural season where people are so focused

15:57

on optimism and positivity that we

16:01

forget about

16:03

the fueling power of anger. I

16:08

quote my dad often, one of my favorites of

16:10

his quotes is that adversity is a terrible thing

16:12

to waste. You

16:14

can't control what life throws at you, but you can

16:16

control how you react to it. I'm

16:21

grateful in hindsight that we came in

16:23

last place that year, because

16:26

had it not been for the frustration

16:28

we felt, then I don't think

16:31

we would have pushed as hard as we did after

16:33

that. But

16:35

then ultimately got to acceptance because, okay, listen, here's

16:37

the deal. It's patently absurd to

16:39

say that one restaurant is the best restaurant in

16:41

the world. There's too

16:43

many restaurants. It's too subjective. When you earn

16:46

the top spot on that list, what

16:48

it actually means is that you are having the

16:50

greatest impact on the world of restaurants. And

16:56

so that night I thought about the chefs

16:59

that had topped that list before us, and

17:02

they were all unreasonable in pursuit of their food,

17:04

their product, and

17:06

relentless in pursuit of how it needed to change,

17:10

innovating techniques, ingredients, sourcing, all

17:13

of it, such that

17:15

they can move the craft of cooking forward. That

17:19

night on a cocktail napkin, I wrote, we will

17:21

be number one in the world, but I needed

17:23

to identify our impact. And what we decided was,

17:25

listen, if they became number one

17:27

by being unreasonable in pursuit of product, we

17:30

were going to be unreasonable in pursuit of

17:32

people. And relentless

17:34

in pursuit of one thing that will never change, which

17:36

is the human desire to feel seen, to feel

17:39

cared for, or just

17:41

our collective need to feel loved.

17:45

And so that's when I wrote the two

17:47

words, the title of my book on that

17:49

napkin, Unreasonable Hospitality. And

17:53

got back to the restaurant and then spent the next two years with the

17:55

team, trying to figure out what the

17:58

heck that meant. But

18:01

about two years after London, I

18:04

found myself in the dining room at a busier

18:06

than normal lunch service and I was helping out

18:08

the team and I found myself clearing appetizers from

18:10

a table of four. There

18:13

were Europeans on vacation to New York just to

18:15

eat at restaurants. In fact,

18:17

this was their last meal. They were going to the airport

18:19

to head back home straight afterwards. They've

18:23

been to the best restaurants in New York. They've

18:25

been to like Danielle and the Bernadette and Jean

18:27

Georges and Percet and now Eleven Madison. But

18:30

then one woman jumped in and said, yeah, you know what? Though

18:32

we never had a hot dog from one of

18:35

the street currents. It

18:37

was like one of those light bulb moments

18:39

from a cartoon where you know the character

18:41

has a good idea. So I walked back

18:43

into the kitchen, dropped off the hot dog

18:45

or the plates, ran outside,

18:48

bought a hot dog, ran back inside. Then

18:51

came the hard part which was convincing my fancy

18:53

chef to serve it in our fancy restaurant. But

18:57

I got him too and we cut the

19:00

hot dog up into four perfect pieces, add

19:02

a little swish of ketchup, a swish of

19:04

mustard, a little sourcrumb relish

19:06

and before their final savory

19:08

course, which at the time was a honey

19:11

lavender glazed muscovy duck that had been dry

19:13

aged for two weeks, I

19:15

brought out what we in New York call a dirty

19:17

water dog and explained

19:19

it. I said, hey, I want to make sure you

19:22

don't go home with any culinary regrets. Here's your New

19:24

York City hot dog. And

19:27

I'd never seen anyone react to

19:29

anything I'd served them the

19:31

way that they reacted to that. Athletes

19:37

always go to the tapes and they've had a bad game to see

19:40

what they did wrong. They don't often enough go to the tapes and

19:42

they've had a good game to see what they did well to make

19:44

sure they keep on doing that thing. So

19:47

I did, but the hot dog and

19:50

it required three things. I needed to be present,

19:53

like basically stop thinking about everything else I

19:55

needed to do and fully focus on those

19:57

people. I

19:59

needed. Yeah, take what I

20:01

did seriously, but also, stop

20:03

taking myself so seriously. Late.

20:07

Too many companies are so focused on their

20:09

brand that they don't do things that feel

20:11

off brand. But. Sometimes

20:13

it's the off brand things that

20:15

will bring your stakeholders the most

20:17

joy. And

20:20

three. Nothing. Recognized

20:22

that. With.

20:24

Unreasonable hospitality. It's not

20:26

about creating. One.

20:28

Size fits all experiences.

20:31

What? Made that special was that it was

20:34

one size fits one. And.

20:37

In those three things, We

20:39

now have had our road map. And

20:43

are trajectory it from that point forward.

20:46

Yeah, we were excellence and our

20:48

food was best in class and

20:50

our service was as close to

20:52

technically perfect. But. We

20:55

became number one. Because.

20:59

We made the choice to be as unreasonable

21:01

and pursuit of how he made people feel

21:03

as every other restaurant on the list was

21:05

in pursuit of simply the food. There were

21:07

survey. And

21:09

to our journey. Was. A ton

21:12

of trial and error. Around

21:14

investing as much intention and creativity

21:17

and the making people feel see

21:19

him. as

21:21

we had historically. In.

21:23

To the product were selling them so.

21:26

I was a crazy story. I

21:29

thank you for sharing! Am so

21:31

much on pack. I'm

21:34

curious. Here. For

21:36

our community that he

21:38

typically early stage founders.

21:41

Pack a nice day present. In

21:44

the moment with a customers. Will.

21:46

Can I learn from that? When I think

21:48

the lesson there. Is that?

21:53

The more you pursue your

21:55

customers rather than just. Talk

21:58

Athlone. Them are you can

22:00

get to know and I'm in the morning and learn

22:02

from the better equipped to our to serve them in

22:04

a way that actually want to be sir. I

22:08

think a lot of early stage founders

22:10

make the mistake of only investing time

22:13

and energy into thing is that are

22:15

skill A boy. I think if you

22:17

limit your efforts into scannable ideas, you're

22:19

selling yourself. Short. And holding

22:22

herself back. I think

22:24

we need to invest energy and to

22:26

and skeletal thing as months we've figured

22:28

out. How impactful those

22:30

things can be. Then

22:33

invest time and energy into figuring out how to

22:35

skill at least a part of what made them

22:37

work. Yeah

22:40

I yeah is a great quite that I

22:43

Love by Paul Graham. He

22:45

he talks about in the early stages do

22:47

things that don't scale. And

22:49

I'm sure you're familiar with that

22:51

Am. And.e Me: Bring me back

22:53

to like when we interviewed Joe

22:56

Jbl the sound of Ebay ebay.

22:58

And. You know when they

23:00

first started? Something. Along

23:03

the lines his arm they had locker or

23:05

some sort of. Conference.

23:08

That was in San Fran. And

23:10

ah, what they did was

23:12

they actually. Put. Their

23:14

own place that was like the first day of

23:17

the bay in a like got to know the

23:19

person that stayed there and I kept doing that.

23:21

they they did like they just they just put

23:23

a places themselves and they got to know every

23:26

single customer in the early days and I do

23:28

things you didn't scale so I can really resonate

23:30

with that. And I mean a lot of people

23:32

would say that. Investing

23:36

and people is not scale a bowl, but.

23:39

It. Is maybe a started with thing

23:42

as the aren't scalable, but the

23:44

underlying idea very much his skill.

23:47

In a lot of people talk about like what is

23:49

that a remote. Every business

23:51

is trying to create their mode and.

23:55

They were does it or talks about it

23:57

at the very least around the idea of

23:59

product and brand. Is it about the

24:01

product? How. Good it is.

24:03

Or what is it about the brand? How

24:05

strong it is that will prevent someone else

24:07

and coming in and. taking

24:09

their lunch, At.

24:12

The reality is this is Not.

24:15

A theory. Time.

24:18

Tested. Fact. That.

24:21

No matter how good your product is, no matter how

24:23

strong your brand is, Eventually.

24:25

Just a matter of time someone

24:27

will come around and build a

24:29

better product or create a stronger

24:31

brand. They. May be because they

24:33

are more money or they're just smarter or my

24:36

creative. or maybe they're just younger and so they

24:38

see a part of the world that you're no

24:40

longer have the ability to see. And.

24:43

Leave the only true competitive

24:45

advantage. The only real moat

24:47

that exists comes with investing

24:49

consistently and generously and to

24:51

relationships. Because. Relationships take

24:53

a long time to build. And

24:55

we build them and the right way.

24:57

The loyalty you earn. Takes a

25:00

long time for someone else to a road. A

25:03

huge. So. There's anything that

25:06

a founder of a new company can

25:08

learn from our story. It's. You.

25:12

Can't focus on the product. A

25:14

big stance of the people. Around.

25:18

Because. I believe we're.

25:24

We're. In a place where excellence

25:26

is merely table snakes, And

25:29

on think you can get a time. When.

25:31

That doubling down on hospitality so

25:33

hacky do that is a digital

25:35

sense. That's. The full question?

25:38

Yes, a

25:41

really to give allowed where the man i

25:43

met him looks different depending on what the

25:45

product is the guy so so for i

25:48

reject that question i'm going tell you the

25:50

do a better job and necklace and guys

25:52

i actually live he says actually do that

25:54

in the digital said when you have at

25:56

a commerce business when you sell your physical

25:59

products like hack can you really take

26:01

your lessons from hospitality and connection

26:03

and building relationships at Skyal

26:05

or building relationships even like when it comes

26:07

to people? I mean, there's plenty of examples

26:10

of people that already do. Um,

26:13

you look at Chewy. Do you know what Chewy is?

26:16

Chewy is the dog food company.

26:19

Um, or maybe it's just pet

26:22

stuff company, but a lot of people

26:24

will go to Chewy

26:26

and they'll order their dog

26:28

food on automatic reorder. So it just comes

26:30

at a relative clip and you

26:32

can get toys for your

26:34

pets, all this different stuff, whatever you need to care

26:37

for a pet. Um,

26:40

when you have a recurring dog food order, that means

26:43

that when your dog passes away, you need to

26:45

call and cancel them and let them know why.

26:48

And oftentimes when someone's pet

26:50

dies, they don't immediately think to

26:52

cancel the food order. So a lot of the

26:55

time the call that Chewy is getting is, Hey,

26:57

I just got this bag of dog food.

27:00

I don't have a dog anymore. Can I send it back to

27:02

you and get a refund? Chewy

27:05

has systemized into their product.

27:09

A couple of things. One, they

27:11

can't take dog food back. So you just, they

27:13

let you keep it and they encourage you to go drop it

27:16

off at, um, a

27:18

place locally where they can

27:20

give it to someone in need and they give you the idea

27:22

of where to go. Um,

27:25

and then everyone on the receiving end

27:27

of those calls, because listen, in most

27:29

digital companies, there is a call center.

27:32

Those call centers are their dining rooms. They

27:35

are empowered to go above and beyond

27:38

to make people feel good in those moments.

27:40

The automatic thing that happens unless a human

27:42

being overrides it with a more creative idea

27:45

is you get

27:47

flowers sent to your house automatically

27:49

saying, we are so sorry for your loss. That's

27:53

unbelievable and connective. And the people

27:55

who hear that story tell

27:57

about it and they're talking about it nonstop.

28:00

stop when that's happened to people.

28:03

And yeah, that costs money.

28:05

It costs chewy money. But

28:10

I would imagine this is for them as

28:12

it always was for me. Every

28:15

dollar I ever spent on hospitality was much

28:17

more impactful than any dollar I ever spent

28:19

on traditional marketing because you give people stories

28:21

like that to tell, guess what they do?

28:23

They tell them over and over

28:27

again. And then suddenly you wake

28:29

up one day with legions of ambassadors

28:31

out there doing your marketing on your

28:33

behalf. I

28:36

think you can bring

28:38

connectivity and relational investment

28:40

into any business. And

28:43

by the way, it's never hard. It just

28:47

requires trying a little bit

28:49

harder and caring a little bit more.

28:53

Yeah, what a great story. You bring me

28:55

back to a couple

28:59

of stories in my mind actually, the founders

29:01

that I've interviewed in the past. One

29:05

who I ended up becoming friends with, he

29:07

started a company called July. They do

29:11

suitcases and travel. It's

29:15

not stuff for traveling. And my partner

29:20

at the time, she ordered

29:23

one of the suitcases and there was something wrong

29:25

with it. And she sent

29:27

an email to customer support and

29:29

the founder actually popped

29:32

by our place to fix

29:35

the suitcase because

29:38

he was in the area. And

29:40

it's an e-commerce business. Who does that?

29:43

Yeah, that's amazing. We

29:47

ended up becoming friends. He ended up teaching

29:49

a course on our platform and

29:51

he's an exceptional founder. And that

29:53

company post COVID is one of

29:55

the fastest growing companies in Australia.

29:57

It says a lot, right? That's

30:01

definitely not scalable. No, no,

30:03

no. But the

30:06

idea behind it very much

30:08

is scalable. Graciousness

30:11

and care is scalable. Perhaps the way it

30:14

was expressed in that moment is not. But

30:18

the underlying idea behind it is.

30:21

Yeah, I love that. So

30:23

will you strike me someone that's

30:25

a really, really incredible storyteller and

30:28

leader? And you

30:31

talked about your

30:34

team and unreasonable

30:37

hospitality and writing the book

30:40

and how you like

30:42

to motivate your team through making

30:45

everything into a game. I'd love to

30:47

explore that more. I

30:53

just don't think there are many things that you

30:57

can't gamify if you don't try

30:59

hard enough. I've

31:02

always made it a point to bust a lot of tables.

31:07

No matter how many restaurants I

31:09

owned, no matter how whatever

31:14

celebrated my career was, when

31:18

I was in the restaurants, I'd

31:20

bust tables. And

31:22

I did it for a few different reasons.

31:24

One, because that was where I came up

31:26

from and it's my comfort zone. Two,

31:29

as a meta signal to

31:32

everyone in my company that

31:34

regardless of where I was in

31:36

my career, I wasn't getting carried away with

31:38

myself or thinking that I was too good

31:40

for even the most menial tasks. And

31:43

three, because well, honestly, if you

31:45

actually want to know what's happening in your business,

31:48

spend as much time as possible with the people

31:50

at the very front of the front line. Otherwise

31:52

you'll never really understand what's going

31:55

on. And so because of that, I was always close to

31:57

the bus place. So whether I was in LA or Vegas.

32:00

during New York City or London, when

32:02

I was in a restaurant, I'd be busing tables. And every

32:04

time I'd spend a night in one of the restaurants, I'd

32:06

go up to one of the bus boys and say, tonight

32:08

it's me versus you. Whoever clears

32:10

more of your tables first wins. And

32:14

I would always lose. They were better at it than

32:16

I was. But that wasn't the point. The point was

32:19

to show them and everyone on the team that if

32:21

something as seemingly mundane as

32:23

clearing other people's dirty dishes could be

32:26

fun, everything could be fun. I

32:30

think that the more

32:32

something feels like you could never

32:34

make a game out of it,

32:36

the greater opportunity there is to

32:39

figure out how to. How to

32:42

get exists across the board. So what

32:46

does the winner get? Does the winner

32:48

always have to get something? Yeah,

32:51

it doesn't even matter. No. I mean

32:53

bragging rights. Yeah, I beat the boss

32:56

or whatever, I think at the end of the night. You

32:58

can come up with games, but it's not about the prize.

33:04

Like people go out and they play like trivia

33:07

at their local pub or the, I don't

33:10

know what you ever win when you win those things.

33:12

What you win is that you won. And

33:15

by the way, not all games are competitive winning

33:18

losing games. There's plenty of games that you play

33:20

as a team when you're racing against the clock.

33:22

I think

33:25

it's about creating stakes and giving people something

33:27

to celebrate

33:30

or to laugh about. And

33:34

I think it exists all around you. It's just a matter of

33:36

looking hard enough that you can find it. So

33:42

what compelled you to write

33:44

your book? Once

33:46

I made the decision to

33:50

rather than going back to doing

33:52

the thing I'd always done to choose

33:54

what I wanted to do next. I

34:00

decided that reading a book was a really helpful way to

34:03

help me get there. I

34:08

think that when

34:11

you're trying to choose what road you

34:14

want to walk down next, re-walking the

34:16

road you've been, you've just

34:18

been down is healthy

34:22

and allows

34:25

you to rediscover

34:28

or perhaps even discover for the

34:30

first time what

34:33

about it you loved the most and want

34:35

to repeat and what about it you didn't

34:37

and don't want to. I

34:40

also believe the best way to

34:44

learn is to teach and

34:47

the better you are at articulating

34:49

your core values and non-negotiables, the

34:51

better you are at leading people

34:53

to embody and embrace them. And

34:58

I knew that if I forced

35:00

myself to really put everything I

35:02

believed into a book, it would

35:05

make me that much better at

35:07

bringing all those things to life in my next chapter.

35:12

That's why I wrote the book. What

35:14

I didn't expect was for the

35:16

book to almost become the next

35:18

chapter. So you

35:21

sold, you said you're

35:24

a former

35:26

co-owner of Eleven Madison Park and

35:30

other restaurants and then COVID hit. Why did

35:32

you decide to do that? My partner and

35:34

I were just not in love anymore. It

35:39

was not working in the way that it

35:41

had and we spent a very long time

35:44

going back and forth and trying

35:48

to figure out who got to keep what. And

35:53

then one day I just had this realization that I

35:55

mean this has been going out for months. In

36:00

an effort to keep part of what

36:02

I had built I was part of

36:05

kind of tearing apart the thing that

36:07

I had built And

36:10

I realized of the two of us I was more well

36:12

equipped to just build something again and So

36:15

I said buy me out And

36:19

there's something amazingly liberating about that

36:24

My dad often You

36:27

know Gives me all

36:29

sorts of kernels of wisdom One

36:32

of the ones I like is that When

36:35

you choose to do big things in your life

36:37

and in your career There's going to be a

36:39

bunch of challenging moments and every time one of

36:41

those comes about Just

36:44

ask yourself what right looks like and

36:47

do that If

36:50

you make the decision to always do what right looks

36:52

like you really never have to make another decision in

36:54

your life because Well so

36:56

much of life exists in the gray when

36:58

it comes to what's right what's wrong. It's

37:01

normally relatively black And

37:05

that was what right looked like then And

37:09

I look back on it was zero regrets.

37:11

All right. Well, look this has been great

37:14

I could speak to you all day, but we have

37:16

to work towards wrapping up We

37:18

have to move to the hot seat round I Rapid-fire

37:22

questions and answers. I'm

37:24

ready What's your death row meal

37:27

a bottle of coterno? Barolo and a

37:29

double double animal style from in and

37:31

out burger. What was

37:33

the most surprising guest that walked

37:35

into your restaurant? Or

37:37

one of your one of your minis I

37:44

Pomekard me and Jimmy Fallon at the same

37:46

table What daily

37:48

habit makes you a better founder? journaling

37:52

a journal every

37:54

single day For

37:56

a ton of different reasons. I

37:58

believe perspective has as an expiration

38:01

date, the better

38:03

you are at capturing your perspectives through

38:05

the seasons of your life, the more

38:07

easy it is to tap back into them.

38:13

And every time I journal, I

38:15

either come up with a new idea,

38:17

realize there's someone I need to apologize the

38:19

next day for something I did incorrectly that

38:21

day. There's always things that come out of

38:23

it. My journaling hack though is

38:25

this. I

38:30

hate exercising. I do it but I hate it

38:32

and one of the things that got me to

38:34

consistently do push-ups was a friend of mine saying,

38:36

hey, just make me a promise that you'll do

38:38

one push-up every day for the rest of your

38:41

life. I was like, I can do

38:43

that. Now, the reality

38:45

is there's no excuse to not do

38:47

a single push-up no matter how whatever, hungover

38:49

you are, retired you are. And

38:52

once you're on the ground, you're gonna do a lot more than one. It's

38:56

my journaling practice. The

38:59

only thing I commit to doing is

39:01

just writing the date. I

39:03

have to open up the journal and write down the date. Same

39:06

idea. It's probably

39:08

been three days in the last year that all I've actually

39:10

done is write down the date. You

39:14

always write more once you're in there but it's just

39:16

about creating a practice. Yeah,

39:19

it's an interesting thing. Those

39:21

daily habits or daily practices as

39:23

a founder, if you can

39:25

get that right and it compounds over time,

39:27

it really shapes where you want to be

39:30

in the future. What

39:33

story that you share in your book still

39:35

helps you in your work today? I

39:38

mean, so

39:40

many of them. I

39:43

think the

39:49

story of writing the same night

39:51

that we came in last place on a

39:53

cocktail napkin that we would come in first.

39:58

I think it's... My

40:00

dad gave me a paperweight when

40:03

I was a kid. It's on the

40:05

desk in our other house still to this day. It

40:08

says, what would you attempt to do if you knew

40:10

you could not fail? He's

40:13

challenged me over the course of my life and

40:15

my career to answer that question. Honestly, whatever that

40:18

honest answer is, just to try to do that.

40:20

Saying that far

40:22

too many people are scared to say their biggest

40:25

goals out loud for fear that if they

40:27

do and don't achieve them, they'll let themselves

40:29

and those around them down. But if you

40:31

don't have the confidence to dream your biggest

40:33

stuff out loud, you're not

40:35

going to achieve it. I

40:40

still look at that paperweight and hope I

40:42

will continue to for the rest of my

40:44

life to make sure that regardless of what

40:47

I've already accomplished, I

40:49

don't stop trying to

40:51

do new, audacious things. If

40:54

you could have dinner with

40:56

any entrepreneur, dead

40:58

or alive, who would it be and why?

41:01

Henry Ford. Just

41:05

because I'm low-key obsessed with Ford and the assembly

41:07

line, I don't know, there's a lot of bad

41:09

stuff about that company back in the day, but...

41:18

I just think what he did is pretty

41:20

extraordinary and... And

41:25

I would just love to learn more about

41:27

how it all actually went down. And where

41:29

would you eat? At In-N-Out Burger with a

41:32

bottle of Conterno Barolo. Well, I

41:34

just thought it was in and out. They did a

41:36

pop-up in Brisbane last week.

41:39

Not in Melbourne, but in Brisbane, Australia. That's

41:43

annoying. So close. What

41:46

are you excited about next? Last question. I'm

41:49

writing and producing on a show here

41:52

in the States called The Bear. And

41:57

I'm really excited to start doing

41:59

more. of that. I've loved

42:01

television my entire life. I think a

42:03

lot of what

42:06

goes into being a great restaurant

42:08

operator and what goes into being a great TV

42:11

and film producer is the

42:14

same and

42:16

that will definitively play a big

42:18

role in my next chapter. Amazing

42:21

and one last question I just

42:24

have to ask. What

42:28

are your final words of wisdom

42:30

or parting advice for our community

42:32

that you'd like to share with

42:34

early-stage startup founders? I would

42:36

repeat something I said before because

42:38

I believe repetition is

42:42

important. If you believe something you better say it

42:44

so many times that you grow sick of hearing

42:47

yourself say it or as you haven't said it

42:49

enough. Now,

42:53

excellence in your product is table

42:55

stakes and

42:57

you need to be as invested

42:59

in relationships as you are in

43:01

that product and you need to

43:05

apply the same creativity and intention

43:08

in your people those that you work with

43:10

and the ones you serve as

43:14

you do in doing the

43:16

groundbreaking work to conceive whatever

43:18

product you're bringing to market.

43:21

Well, Will, thank you so much for your

43:24

time. You're a really,

43:26

really exceptional person and I

43:29

don't say that lightly. I really enjoyed

43:31

this interview. Thank you so much for your time and

43:34

thank you Nick. I look forward to seeing

43:36

what you do next. Thanks for

43:38

having me on. If you love this episode

43:41

make sure to check out my interview with

43:43

Emma Greed on how solving a problem she

43:45

was so passionate about led to the creation

43:47

of Skims and Good American. Hasina

44:00

enough and sometimes crazy. Had else

44:02

to go. Round. And round

44:04

and round such he solve problems.