0:00

I'm Missa Green for example. I'm already upset.

0:02

When I find my ball in the bunker,

0:04

I'm really upset. And when I find my

0:06

ball in a Fried egg. Fried egg. The

0:08

dreaded fried egg. Fried egg. Fried egg. Fried

0:10

egg. Fried egg. Fried egg lie. I'm about ready

0:12

to run off the golf course. Welcome

0:35

to the Friday golf podcast. I'm

0:38

Garrett Morrison. And today, Michael

0:40

Bamberger is on the show. The

0:43

occasion is the re-publication of Michael's

0:45

great book, To the Lynxland. A

0:48

30th anniversary edition of this book is going on

0:50

sale next week. It's currently

0:52

available for pre-order and I highly

0:54

recommend that you get yourself a copy. This

0:57

is one of those golf books that you have to read. It'll

0:59

put you under its spell, draw you

1:01

into its world, and rekindle

1:03

your enthusiasm for the game. It's been doing

1:05

that for the past three decades for readers,

1:08

and I'm sure it will continue to do it

1:10

for many more decades. Basically,

1:13

the book is an account of Michael Bamberger's

1:15

quest to find the soul of the game

1:17

in Europe in 1991. First,

1:20

he caddies on the European tour for

1:22

Peter Terevanin and crosses paths with players

1:25

like Ian Woosnum and Seve Biasteros. Then

1:28

he sets off with his then new

1:30

wife on a personal journey through Scotland

1:32

to play Lynx Golf. So

1:34

that's the subject of my conversation with

1:36

Michael today. But really,

1:38

this is just an opportunity, an

1:40

excuse to talk to one of

1:42

my writing idols, somebody whose byline

1:45

I've followed since I was a teenager. Michael

1:47

is one of the most distinctive

1:50

sports writers, right? You could

1:52

put a paragraph of his in front of

1:54

me and I'd be able to link it

1:56

to him almost immediately because his voice is

1:58

so individual. This is a

2:00

big deal for me to get to interview him. He

2:02

joined me from an outdoor setting, so you'll

2:04

hear some sounds of nature in the recording.

2:07

I like to think this provides some uniqueness.

2:09

And honestly, I'm just impressed that he was able to

2:12

set up a hotspot that actually kept us connected. So

2:14

big thanks to Michael. That interview is coming

2:16

up. Now, somewhat

2:18

appropriately, this episode is brought

2:20

to you by Golf in Ireland. If

2:23

you want to take a To The Lynxland-style

2:25

Odyssey, the island of Ireland

2:27

is one of the best choices for

2:29

a destination. It's a golfer's

2:31

paradise, with over 400 courses

2:34

and one-third of the world's true

2:36

links. Ireland also

2:38

has exceptional championship courses surrounded

2:41

by epic landscapes. These

2:43

include Royal County Down and Royal

2:45

Portrush. A portion of the Friday

2:47

team is actually visiting Northern Ireland

2:50

and seeing those spots right now. You'll

2:52

also be able to see both courses on TV

2:54

in the next couple of years. It's

2:57

September. County Down will host

2:59

the Amgen Irish Open. And

3:01

in 2025, the Open Championship will

3:03

go back to Portrush. If

3:06

you decide to go to some of

3:08

these courses, you'll also discover some wonderful

3:10

hospitality. There's no better place to finish

3:12

a day of golf than the confines

3:14

of a great pub, where you can

3:16

relax and make new friends. All

3:18

you got to do to start

3:20

planning your trip is go to

3:22

ireland.com/golf. Again, that's

3:25

ireland.com/golf. All right,

3:27

let's go to my interview with Michael Banda. All

3:34

right, I'm here with Michael Bamberger. Michael, thank

3:36

you for being on the podcast. Thank

3:39

you. Here's a relative term. Yeah,

3:42

well, describe where you are right now, in

3:44

fact. Well, I'm at the Country Club of

3:46

Winter Haven, Winter Haven, Florida. It's

3:49

Reese Jones course, designed with another fellow

3:51

whose name I can't recall. And

3:54

it is just a lovely setting. I think the Red

3:56

Sox may be used to train here. I know years

3:59

ago I was here. for baseball and

4:01

there's an Epsom tour event. For those who don't know

4:03

the Epsom tour is what corn fairy

4:05

is to the PGA tour, not corn fairy. Is that what

4:07

they call it now? Corn fairy? Yeah. Well,

4:10

corn fairy is to the PGA tour. Epsom

4:12

is the LPGA tour. And I

4:14

was lucky enough to be invited to

4:16

play in a pro-am today. And that's what I'm going to

4:18

do. Actually, I was also lucky

4:20

to be invited onto this Garrett

4:23

Morrison podcast. Someone

4:25

actually seems to read a lot of books

4:27

based on the book shows behind you. So

4:30

thanks so much for having me. Well,

4:32

we were just joking about this before the

4:34

podcast came on. And I told you that

4:37

I'd point my camera at the books just

4:39

to fool people into thinking that I'm smart.

4:41

But those books are all for show. But

4:45

one book that I have read is To the

4:47

Linked Land. And it's being

4:49

republished very soon here. Can

4:51

you give me an idea of why it's being

4:53

republished now? It's

4:56

being republished only because I've

4:59

got a wildly enthusiastic young

5:01

editor named Jofi, J-O-F-I-E, who

5:05

works for Simon & Schuster. And he's done

5:07

so well at Simon & Schuster that they've

5:09

given him his own imprint. And the imprint

5:11

is called Avid Reader Press.

5:14

And so he

5:16

has some liberty to do things that

5:18

he wants to do, including republishing

5:20

super obscure golf books

5:23

from his childhood that he would

5:25

like to still see have life. That

5:27

would be the short version. I'm

5:30

not sure that To the Linked Land is

5:32

super obscure at this point, but we will

5:34

get into that. Why don't we go back

5:37

to the beginning of this project? It says

5:39

the 30th anniversary edition,

5:42

but I think it's in fact

5:44

the 32nd anniversary of the publication

5:46

and the 33rd anniversary

5:49

of this endeavor that

5:51

you undertook. So

5:53

tell me about where you were in your

5:55

life when you decided to take on the

5:58

project that would be Come to the Linked Land. You

6:01

had a high math SAT score, didn't you? I

6:05

mean, my verbal score was a little bit higher. I

6:07

see what you're doing here. In 1990, my wife, Christine

6:10

and I got married. I was a baseball

6:13

writer for the Philadelphia Inquirer. Not

6:16

a very good one. And Christine was

6:18

a advertising executive in New York. And

6:21

we got married on Shelter Island,

6:23

on Long Island. And we were

6:25

looking to do something adventurous

6:28

when we could, while we

6:30

could, before mortgage and kids

6:32

and all those other things. And

6:35

I had already counted once on the PGA Tour and

6:37

written a book about that. And

6:40

I was enamored with the European Tour. I

6:43

read Golf World

6:45

very closely. And Golf World covered the European

6:47

Tour well. And it was

6:49

Seve at the height of his powers,

6:51

Alot the ball, Lewis Nunn, Nick Faldo,

6:54

Bernhard Langer, and Colin

6:58

Montgomery in various supporting characters. And

7:00

I'm using the word intentionally, playing.

7:03

So I thought I could somehow hook onto that

7:05

tour and caddy there, and

7:08

in caddy in these national championships in Belgium,

7:11

and Italy, and Ireland, and Portugal,

7:14

and Scotland, and other places.

7:18

How fun would that be? And what a great way to

7:20

get our married life off to a start. So

7:22

I wrote a letter to a

7:25

Yale grad who was playing the European Tour with

7:28

Midling Success and Peter Terevainen. And

7:30

he was willing to take me on on an

7:32

experimental basis. And

7:35

on that basis, off we went. I

7:37

took a leave for my job, and

7:39

Christine quit hers. And as newlyweds, off

7:42

we went on this adventure, really having no

7:45

idea where we were going or

7:47

what it would be like, or how long it would last

7:49

with Peter or anything else. Was

7:51

it part of the plan from the beginning to

7:54

end up leaving the European

7:56

Tour at the Scottish

7:58

Open? and go

8:01

on this journey across Scotland playing golf yourself.

8:03

Was that part of the concept from the

8:05

beginning? I think so. I'd really have to

8:07

go back in time, but that

8:09

sounds right because I do remember writing

8:11

out a

8:14

schedule or maybe photocopying a schedule and putting

8:16

it in my wallet. And I

8:18

think it did conclude with the British Open

8:20

in mid-July. And then after that, we

8:22

would go to Scotland. So yes. To the degree we

8:24

had a plan, yes. I think that

8:26

was the plan. Well, I'm curious

8:29

about that because the book has this

8:31

really interesting structure, where it's basically two

8:33

parts. One part is catting on the

8:35

European tour, and the next

8:37

part is going through Scotland on

8:39

this kind of magical,

8:41

wonderful journey of Lynx golf.

8:45

I wonder, it makes it such a

8:47

great and rich book that way, but

8:49

I wonder why you didn't just write

8:51

a book about catting on the European

8:53

tour or just write a book about

8:55

playing golf in Scotland. Because those would

8:57

have been maybe the conventional ways to

8:59

go. Those seem like maybe two

9:02

different books on their own, but you put them together here.

9:04

I wonder why you did that. Yeah,

9:06

it's a terrific question, and

9:08

I don't have an answer, except

9:12

for that the whole thing

9:14

was the spirit of adventure, and we would go

9:16

where we would go. And I

9:18

guess, in part, I'd done the catting thing

9:20

and written about it once, so I didn't

9:22

want to do that again. I

9:25

was always very moved by

9:27

Michael Murphy's Golf in the Kingdom, where he

9:29

explores semi-fictionally his

9:32

own golf in Scotland. And

9:35

I thought, how neat would it be if I could try to

9:37

do something similar in

9:40

a nonfiction way? I

9:43

didn't have a sheevish irons in mind at all,

9:46

but I did have in mind the idea of exploring

9:50

Lynx golf in Scotland. So

9:52

yes, you're right. It's

9:55

sort of two books in one, but it's kind of

9:57

a skinny book to begin with for those who do.

10:00

don't like the long books, this one's not. But

10:03

those are good questions which I have no

10:05

answer except that,

10:08

as they say, it seemed like a good idea at

10:10

the time. Well, I mean, I

10:13

think it was a great idea. I love that

10:15

the book is these two things at once

10:17

because what you're tempted to do is kind

10:19

of compare and contrast them. And,

10:22

you know, as you wrote the book,

10:25

did you, you know, you

10:27

don't compare and contrast them in a kind

10:29

of pat way where you say, this is

10:32

the real spirit of golf, journeying through Scotland

10:34

and the European tour is

10:36

professional golf is some kind of bastardized

10:38

version of it. You're not that simplistic

10:41

about it. But, you know,

10:43

as you were writing it, did you come

10:45

up with a kind of working theory about

10:47

how these two sides of golf relate to

10:50

each other, I guess? Well,

10:52

I never thought about it as

10:54

you're framing it until

10:57

this conversation. But I

10:59

would definitely say the spirit of

11:01

golf on the European tour as I

11:03

experienced it and the spirit of

11:06

golf as amateurs played it in Scotland, there

11:09

was a great connection between the two. So

11:13

now today, if you were trying to

11:16

do something similar about, let's say, live

11:18

golf or even the PJ Tour versus,

11:20

you know, amateur golf at Ely, it

11:24

would feel very different. But in that period, it

11:26

didn't. The European tour was

11:28

rough noon and what can I do to stay

11:31

out here and survive and and

11:33

golf in Scotland was

11:36

inexpensive and brown and

11:38

hard in a couple

11:40

different senses. So I

11:42

felt one paved the way to the other. And

11:45

as I'm thinking about your question, and

11:48

it's really an interesting one, I think

11:50

I think I could take what I learned about

11:53

golf, chatting for

11:55

Peter Turvain and seeing the European tour up

11:57

close and try to apply it to some

11:59

degree. to my own golf. So

12:01

I think one paved the way for the

12:03

other. Well, let's dig in

12:05

a little bit with your experience on the European

12:08

Tour. For those who

12:10

are familiar with the DP

12:12

World Tour, as it's called now in

12:15

the 21st century, how would you

12:17

say it was different about 30 years ago?

12:20

Well, it's night and day. I

12:24

don't really know much about the DP World Tour, except

12:26

for that it's all over the place.

12:28

I'm not saying that in a pejorative way, it just

12:31

is. And even in 91

12:34

when I was over there, I think they

12:36

did have one scheduled event in

12:38

Saudi Arabia, Saudi Arabia, and

12:40

I believe it was canceled because of the

12:42

Gulf War. I'm nearly certain of that, although

12:44

I really would have to look it up

12:46

to check. But for the most part, the

12:48

European Tour was played. This will shock you,

12:50

Garrett, in Europe. And

12:54

the currencies were different in every country

12:56

because there was no EU. Travel

12:58

was rough. Christine and I traveled by

13:00

overnight train, which was great. There

13:03

was overnight ferries. There were

13:05

overnight bus rides. There

13:07

were higher cars. There were caravans. There were all

13:10

sorts of different ways of getting around. Some

13:13

players would occasionally caddy for themselves or

13:16

push a trolley. Seve

13:18

was out there, and Seve was

13:21

a golfing god. But he

13:23

was propped up by all these working

13:25

class kids who turned pro at 18,

13:27

guys like Richard

13:29

Boxl, David Frarity, and Robert Lee.

13:34

Because you can't have a star without a supporting

13:36

cast, and it had one. So

13:39

I would say the

13:42

conditions were often

13:44

semi-primitive by American standards, the driving

13:46

ranges, and the course, and the

13:48

travel, and everything else, the hotels.

13:50

The band of caddies was a

13:54

bunch of characters. Everyone

13:56

was sort of scraping by. And

13:59

we were, too, Christine. and I were,

14:01

even though we had some

14:03

cushion, but we were trying

14:05

to make it based on what I was making from

14:08

Peter as his caddy. So

14:14

night and day is the short answer. I don't think

14:16

he can even compare the two. You

14:19

chose Peter Taravainen as your

14:22

subject slash employer. Why

14:25

did you do that? Did you have a preexisting connection with him?

14:29

No, and chose would be

14:31

a wild overstatement.

14:34

I begged him to let me come

14:36

on for a couple weeks and

14:40

it's in the book. I think he said he was

14:42

going to give me a two-week trial, maybe a three-week

14:44

one, and then we'll see how it goes. He didn't

14:46

promise anything beyond that. My

14:48

great fortune, he made

14:51

the cuts in both events despite my

14:53

broadened aptitude. I often talk about

14:55

my broadened aptitude, but there was some

14:57

connection for us as caddy and players

15:00

as well. I

15:02

was aware of him as an American player, probably

15:04

the best golfer in the history of the

15:08

Yale University golf team.

15:14

I could easily put up with Peter's

15:16

quirks. I enjoyed him. He

15:18

was pathologically frugal and he had all

15:20

sorts of interesting theories. He

15:22

needed an audience as

15:25

a receptor for these theories. He'd

15:28

hit a good shot and then he'd hit another shot, or a

15:30

stiffer shot, and then he'd make the six-footer. Once

15:32

he said, good shots, much common groups of

15:34

two. I run with

15:36

that ever since. As a matter of

15:38

fact, I saw CeCe, Sibathia, the great

15:40

left-hander the other day, yesterday at Bay

15:42

Hill. He was playing in a pro-am.

15:44

He drove in a mile, then he stiffed the wedge, and then he

15:46

made the putt. This guy's always going

15:48

to drive in a mile, but it was the wedge and

15:50

the putt. I said, yeah, I used to cater for a

15:52

guy who said, good shots, much common groups of two. Sibathia

15:54

says, yeah, I like that. Peter

15:58

always had things like that going on. because he's super

16:00

smart and verbal in a quirky kind of

16:02

way. But anyway,

16:07

I didn't choose. There was

16:09

one guy that I had a path that I could

16:11

maybe write to. He didn't know me from Adam and

16:14

he was willing to take me on on

16:17

this experimental basis. And I'm not going to

16:19

say we hit it off, but we did okay.

16:21

Okay enough that he wasn't going to fire

16:23

me. Terevanin has

16:25

these two sides to his character, it

16:28

seems to me, from your portrait of

16:30

him in your book. On

16:33

the one hand, there is a mystical side to him.

16:35

You don't make much of

16:37

it in the book, but he's starting to get

16:39

into Buddhism. On the other

16:42

hand, he's a very black and

16:44

white kind of person, it seems.

16:46

Economics major. Somebody who is very

16:48

into numbers and it's either good

16:50

or it's bad. There's no in

16:52

between. Golf is a

16:54

matter of kind of figuring out

16:56

the numbers. Was

17:00

he kind of struggling between those two poles as

17:02

you were working with him? Yeah,

17:05

great question. And I have to say it brings

17:07

up something right away when you say black and

17:09

white, yes or no, left or right. So

17:13

I was scouting for him at the Italian

17:15

Open and he drives it well. And

17:18

we're looking at the pinchy. The green is a two

17:21

tiered green. And

17:23

then it's got a gentle slope in the middle. And

17:26

Peter says, go up to the green and

17:28

tell me where the pin is. It's

17:31

either on the back plateau

17:33

or the front plateau. And I come back

17:35

and say, yeah, it's in the middle. And

17:37

Peter says, it's not in the middle.

17:39

It's either on the back plateau, I'm overstating here,

17:41

but this is based on that one. Back

17:43

plateau or the front plateau? Can't be

17:45

in the middle. I

17:48

said, Peter, I don't know how to answer questions in the middle. He's

17:51

like, he hits it on the

17:53

green too. But he comes up the green. He was

17:55

like, yeah, you're right. It

17:57

was in the middle. But it was like, so memorable

17:59

here. We are 32 years later because it

18:01

was so rare for him to agree that it

18:04

wasn't one or the other like it often was with

18:06

him. Once I told him, I

18:09

often cite this, I don't know why, Christine

18:13

and I, my wife, Christine and I were saying

18:15

a place where you could cook breakfast for yourself.

18:18

And I said, no matter how good the

18:20

eggs are wherever you're eating, they'll never

18:22

be like the eggs you eat

18:24

at home. And Peter said,

18:26

yeah, that's right. And for

18:28

Peter to casually agree with anything was

18:31

so rare because he could find problems

18:33

with anything because he was so smart

18:35

and so analytical. So that

18:37

always stuck. All these years later, that sticks with me. And

18:39

I think about all the time when I cook eggs at

18:41

home because I like them. I like to

18:43

cook on intense heat and I like the edges with

18:46

a lot of butter. I know I

18:48

can hear my wife say, turn on the fan right now. And

18:51

I like the edges to be crispy and

18:53

brown. And

18:56

then sometimes I'll flip them over with no heat on. But

18:58

the point is you can't go to a

19:00

diner and get that. I know

19:02

this will bring to mind for some people

19:04

the Larry David episode where he

19:06

goes to the country club with his own

19:08

eggs. I have to say, I

19:10

can totally understand because the quality of the

19:13

eggs that you bring from home are very,

19:15

very likely to be better than the quality of

19:17

the eggs that the country clubs is going to

19:19

have. Oh my gosh. We

19:22

need to have an egg section of this

19:24

podcast now, especially considering it is the fried

19:26

egg golf podcast. Oh, that's

19:28

a... Exactly. Yeah. That's

19:31

a wonderful story. In

19:33

any case, these aspects

19:35

of Terravainen's character were so interesting

19:37

to me. And it seems like

19:40

he was, to an extent, when

19:42

you were working with him, he was not quite

19:44

at peace. He hadn't won yet.

19:48

There was some struggle going on with him. And

19:51

that's what so many golfers go through,

19:53

where they want things to be certain,

19:55

they want things to be black and

19:57

white, they know if they just

19:59

figure it out. If they just solve

20:01

the equation, then it's all going to be okay.

20:04

But the fact is golf is a lot

20:06

more chaotic than that. It's not possible to

20:09

make things black and white in golf. And

20:12

this kind of going back and forth between

20:14

those two poles, it seems to me, is

20:16

like a big part of

20:18

just being a golfer. And

20:20

I guess that's just not really a question. It's more of a

20:23

thesis, but I wonder if it brings anything to mind for you.

20:25

Well, it does. And

20:29

I would say what you're describing is

20:32

very much a real thing for some golfers.

20:35

And especially in the modern context, like,

20:37

you know, Tiger, it's all

20:39

about the W. But for Peter Taravadin

20:41

and my friends, Billy Britton and Mike Donald,

20:44

various others, it wasn't all about the win.

20:47

They weren't going to win. Maybe occasionally they

20:49

might win. They want to play good

20:52

enough golf that they could stay out there.

20:54

So to play good enough golf to stay

20:56

out there was to constantly try to solve

20:59

the various and many mysteries of

21:01

the game. Like, where should the

21:03

right thumb be when

21:05

you're putting? I kind of forgot Al Garvey related his

21:07

life. Oh, you won't be able to see this. Well,

21:09

they see this, you know, and he had his

21:12

right thumb right down the shaft. And then he says

21:14

one day, you see that Corey, Corey, this was in

21:16

85 and Corey Paven was putting great,

21:19

I mean, you always put a great, you see,

21:21

see that Corey Paven, he's got his right thumb here

21:23

and moved it a quarter inch. I'm like, yeah, absolutely.

21:26

That will make the difference because in his mind,

21:28

maybe it would make the difference. Now Al Garvey

21:30

was a very accomplished player. And

21:33

you know, he was a mega, mega talent. You guys,

21:35

Peter was not a mega, mega talent, but

21:37

I don't think it was unsettling. I

21:39

think it was like, man, I'm

21:42

making a living playing professional golf and

21:44

I'm going to keep at this mystery

21:47

of it. And there was a tremendous.

21:52

I want to use the word joy, but

21:54

it's not like, isn't this all great? It's

21:56

more like deeply satisfying to be in this

21:58

really interesting. thing where you're

22:00

trying to figure it out. And I can very much

22:02

relate to it because I'm trying to

22:05

do this, you know, here at 63. You

22:07

know, I'm a lousy writer, I'm a terrible

22:09

reporter, but I'm going to try to get

22:11

better at it. That's my MO. And, you

22:14

know, I think Peter would have said about

22:16

the same thing. You

22:19

mentioned that Tara Vainen was pretty frugal. His

22:22

frugality led you to

22:25

one particularly interesting situation. I'm sure

22:27

many interesting situations, but the one

22:29

I'm thinking of is the

22:31

night on the Caddy bus. Can

22:33

you give me a few

22:35

snatches of your memory from the

22:37

night on the Caddy bus? Jared, I thought

22:39

you might go for another one, which I'm going to

22:42

get to in one quick second. Yes, you're anything

22:44

to save a night's Peter

22:47

called hotels and the kind of British

22:49

tradition digs. Now, digs

22:52

always cost you at least 30 pounds and

22:54

he was not fussy at all. He often say where

22:56

the Caddies did 30 pounds even then

22:59

was not a lot of money. But if

23:01

you could transport yourself

23:06

and not have to pay

23:08

for digs at the same time, it was

23:10

a two for one. So an overnight train

23:12

or overnight fare or an overnight bus ride

23:15

would be ideal. So at one point, Christine

23:17

and I were going from, I think,

23:22

Spain to

23:24

a port of Portugal, definitely to a

23:26

port of Portugal, by way of an

23:28

overnight Caddy bus. And there were 60

23:32

Caddies in various states

23:34

of impairment on

23:36

the bus. One Caddy spouse, my

23:39

wife Christine, and one player, Peter.

23:42

And he was fine with it. We

23:44

got to the border crossing of Spain and Portugal.

23:46

We couldn't get in because the border wasn't open

23:48

yet. Peter was rolling with it all.

23:51

And I don't know. It's astounding

23:53

to think about it now. But

23:55

I, and there were There

24:00

was a movie showing Kirby rides the bus

24:02

or something like that. Kirby rides, yeah, something

24:04

like that. No, it

24:06

wasn't Kirby rides the bus. Some Kirby

24:08

type VW type bug movie. And

24:11

it was on, it was showing out again and

24:13

again. Of course, it was not what the caddies were looking

24:15

for. And there were, you know, things

24:18

got very chaotic on this bus ride.

24:21

But, you know, the things you do when you're young and

24:23

are quite amazing. But there was another time, at one

24:25

point, I had a car. Christina

24:28

had rented a car from a long-term business.

24:32

And Peter did not. And we were staying

24:34

in some modest hotel. And I think this

24:36

is Monte Carlo and Peter was staying in

24:38

the same hotel. And Peter left

24:40

a note on our door. Now, I'm the guy

24:42

with the car, but he is

24:45

the boss. And the note says

24:47

the following, Mike, I

24:49

want to eat breakfast at the club. So

24:52

we'll leave at 7.30 p. So,

24:57

we'll leave at 7. So,

25:00

but our tea time was like 9.30. So

25:03

it was like, oh, for his convenience. So

25:05

Christina writes back on the note, Gee,

25:08

the car leaves at 8. If you

25:10

want to go earlier, fuss it. You

25:12

know, this is not precise. This is

25:14

from memory, but it's in the book. And,

25:17

but another example of how

25:20

Peter thought and also his

25:22

regality. But his regality actually

25:24

made the whole thing possible. You

25:27

know, if he spent, he would have

25:29

been spending into debt. And he can't

25:31

play good golf in debt. So

25:33

I think, you know, it was a

25:35

way of life for him for gallety. But

25:39

also prevented him, you know, he was able

25:41

to make more money than he spent, even

25:44

when he was 100th on the order of

25:46

Meredith, that charmingly called it there. So

25:49

it worked hugely to his advantage to

25:53

live the way he lived. I

25:56

Wonder if your experience as a caddy

25:58

has... Bled into

26:00

your career as a journalist.

26:02

You know you've at this

26:04

point. It was by by

26:07

the time you finished caddying for Terror

26:09

Van and and and ninety Ninety One

26:11

you had put him some hours as

26:13

a cat he would also caddied I

26:15

believe on on the Pj to her

26:17

or in the U S somewhere and

26:19

I've So when you're inside the ropes

26:21

at a golf tournament. Do

26:23

you think you look at the action? Somewhat.

26:26

Differently. Then. An ordinary

26:29

journalist might. Because. You

26:31

have had this experience on the back. So.

26:33

I would want to governments have anybody else but

26:35

I would definitely say. That.

26:38

The caddying that I've done, Has

26:41

reached every aspect of my.

26:43

Writing. License in for the services uses

26:45

it might my golf running. Sort.

26:47

Of is to this day I still

26:49

have. Friends. And great friends

26:51

who are cows and sells it. But

26:54

I see my countless. You know

26:56

have a little chat with him. So

26:58

as much hi joel called or is

27:00

others are that I've known gone back

27:02

you don't some is deserve. To.

27:04

The mid eighties Or maybe even the late

27:06

seventies? And

27:09

they know golf at a level that I'll

27:11

never know it because they have so. Much.

27:14

As Spurs. But. Also, I think.

27:17

Having caddied and in professional vents

27:19

I think I'm under sans because

27:21

I've seen as is such close

27:24

range. The. Challenges of what it's

27:26

like to try to. The. Challenge

27:28

of try to secure to leave last two

27:30

holes and even to make the cut. That.

27:33

Challenge for Peter to remain in in our

27:35

bread bags or never it might be. Is

27:37

is nearly identical to Sue Com on

27:39

Garbage. Honestly last three and one hundred

27:42

to two to win a tournament. Ah,

27:45

I'm in. It's nerve wracking. It's really,

27:47

really difficult time getting to the house.

27:49

Getting to thirty six holes into seventy

27:51

two holes. Vr. Is

27:53

really really sound Really difficult thing

27:56

to do some. And the

27:58

close if you watch from. TV, you have

28:00

one sense of it, if you watch it as a spectre you

28:02

have another, and if you watch it as a caddy you

28:05

have yet another, and of course the player would have yet

28:07

another. So yes, I

28:10

think that's been very, very helpful. And then

28:13

Tom Watson has

28:15

written, I think, a book, and he's definitely talked about

28:17

it a lot over the course of his life. And

28:20

Bones Micaiah, the TV commentator, did

28:22

the same. What I'm about to say is

28:26

the lie, and Tiger was the

28:28

master of this, the lie dictates

28:30

everything. You really don't know what

28:32

you're going to do with the shot until

28:34

you see the lie, how it's actually sitting.

28:37

But you could extrapolate from that just a

28:39

little bit and say the lie is also,

28:41

of course it's the wind and

28:43

the weather, but it's also how you're feeling, where

28:45

you stand on the leaderboard, where you

28:47

stand on the money list, blah, blah, blah, blah,

28:49

blah. The lie is the here

28:52

and now, and the here and

28:54

now is one

28:56

of the single most fascinating things about

28:58

golf, because Nicholas wrote about this forever,

29:00

said this forever. You're

29:03

only going to have one chance in your

29:05

life at this exact shot, this time and

29:07

place, and what are you going to do

29:09

with it? And after what you do with it, you're going

29:11

to have to live with it. So like Tiger was

29:13

absolutely brilliant at it, yet

29:16

really absorbed, and all these golfers are, but

29:18

Tiger was so obvious you could actually see

29:20

it. Gets super absorbed

29:22

in this moment. What

29:25

am I going to do with it? And then let's

29:27

say the result is not what

29:29

you want. Then there's going to be this

29:31

moment of anger and

29:33

feeling unworthy, and then you

29:35

must let that go so you can do it all

29:37

over again, here and now, here and now, here and

29:40

now. Now when you're on the practice day

29:42

or the practice round or something else, then it's all sort

29:44

of future looking, having

29:46

learned something from your past all the while.

29:51

It's an endless thing in golf, and

29:54

here I am at 63 trying to get

29:56

better, or trying to Hang on,

29:58

I'm not sure which. I think

30:00

it's true for all of us like up like

30:02

grow. Golf of Games is the one in which

30:05

you know that. The. Walls

30:07

between the that their first the world

30:09

and supernatural ruff seen this is not

30:11

a long as I quote. And.

30:13

That's true they it's also the game in which

30:15

like the amateur experience and the pros variants. Are

30:18

really identical because everything that I just said

30:20

for as if the for the players in

30:23

the world is also true for us and

30:25

I think that's wise. You. Know.

30:27

The. Fried Egg exists and Golf Club

30:30

Atlas exists. People want to read

30:32

and learn more about the game

30:34

because I'm. Ah

30:36

well, really in all

30:38

senses. just endlessly interesting.

30:43

Why don't we transition into

30:45

talking about. Your. Own

30:47

Game your own Golf in Scotland

30:49

After he decided to leave the

30:51

European Tour and Peter terror van

30:53

and moved on to a new

30:55

tatty with you write about in

30:57

the buck him and that you

30:59

felt a little pang of jealousy

31:01

and with as a a charming

31:03

moment but it was time for

31:05

you to play some golf of

31:07

your own in Scotland. You mentioned

31:09

Michael Murphy's Bucks Coffin The Kingdom

31:12

earlier and his. As great

31:14

characters have a science, you didn't

31:16

have a service irons in mind

31:18

when you went to Scotland, but

31:20

you ended up sort of finding

31:22

one in the flash. How did

31:24

you learn about John Starks? Great

31:28

question in and if I just brag about Mike

31:30

for a minute. My son has been nine years.

31:33

I. Would say is a friend would I'm honored

31:35

to say that. And he rode a little

31:37

introduction to the new version. Yeah, I mean.

31:41

It's so brilliant. It's is so much

31:43

about reader words each can't believe. He's.

31:46

An astounding person is the full

31:49

Dna package. It is mid fifties,

31:51

early fifties. You could one for

31:53

thirty mile. Need. That's

31:56

mine bought. It starts

31:58

mentors with answer minutes. The killer

32:00

smart person and he has this

32:03

ability to see through things in

32:05

and for audibly deep lights out

32:07

ship knock him down. And.

32:09

Jump over the united apart. As with them.

32:12

Maybe. Value and a half ago. And.

32:14

He didn't he was so sounding leah

32:16

interesting than away so on a ship

32:18

my had to Michael Murphy and is

32:20

great Great invention of. Of. She

32:22

this arms or combines. Different

32:25

characters Cel from realize until until fictional characters

32:27

in yes I very much have had yet

32:29

have they do? I have no idea who

32:31

the person will be but if I could

32:33

find my own she was irons. Would that

32:35

be great? And. I went to

32:37

Peter Alliss. Oddly how I don't

32:40

see You know everything was more

32:42

casual that you know words. I

32:44

was a caddy working a tournament

32:46

appear was there. For

32:48

those ago know Pete Rouse was the of

32:50

the great golf. Is. Great voice all

32:53

for the Bbc for about a hundred and

32:55

ten years and I use in the World

32:57

Golf Hall of Fame and if you ever

32:59

wanna see some and really funny look of

33:01

his Hall of Fame induction speech it's priceless

33:03

by. Will. And I'm.

33:06

Very. Job. But anyway, I introduced myself

33:09

to puke to Peter. And.

33:11

Peters said. Look

33:13

at this guy. John. Start. Ah,

33:16

increase. That's all he said. I knew

33:18

nothing about. About him and dumb

33:20

and I think I wrote a letter to

33:22

John start and grief. And and

33:24

asked if I could come see of. And

33:27

and he said yes And. Ford.

33:30

Ever reason. Start.

33:33

And. I hit it off or he took a liking

33:35

to me or he could see my desperation. Probably.

33:37

Combination of all those things and my

33:40

eagerness in my. Just.

33:42

Desired some. Sort. Of

33:44

learn the game and new. Smyrna.

33:47

it from a Scottish perspective. And.

33:51

That. Conversation: Peter Alliss In which the

33:53

rest my life because being starved

33:55

enriched rest of my life. And

33:58

has enriched my. govt this

34:00

day. I

34:02

have a sense that John Stark

34:04

represents a tradition in the

34:07

game that is not,

34:11

it hasn't gone away completely, but

34:13

it's more rare to find now. How

34:17

would you describe the tradition in

34:19

golf that John Stark

34:21

represented, the lineage that he

34:24

was bringing to bear in his conversations with you?

34:28

Well it's everything really

34:30

because he

34:32

would say golf, the

34:34

swing starts from the ground up, golf

34:37

starts from the ground up. Now

34:40

so much of golf is what do you

34:43

see from a video camera? What do you

34:45

see looking down at a golfer and down

34:47

at a golf course and his whole view

34:49

was the game and the people who play

34:51

it come from the ground up. I

34:58

wrote another book called The Ball in the

35:00

Air and I got that phrase from Billy

35:03

Harmon, Claude Harmon's son, and he

35:05

was a good brother. There

35:07

were four Harmon brothers and two sisters and he was

35:09

the emiss of the brothers. But

35:12

their thing was that ball in the air,

35:14

what is it doing and what can I learn from it?

35:19

Also in Stark, not

35:21

so much Stark the professional but Stark the person

35:23

who loved golf, it really was, this

35:25

is like a cliche of Scottish golf but

35:27

it's good cliche because it's true, it really

35:30

was about the match, the

35:32

camaraderie, appropriateness

35:38

of how serious,

35:41

don't take the game seriously,

35:43

don't take yourself so seriously and

35:47

part of that very much is the pace of

35:49

play because

35:51

if you're not taking it so seriously

35:53

you will play faster and I

35:55

know a lot of my American friends that

35:57

I play with think that I play ridiculous.

36:00

fast. I think I just

36:02

play appropriately fast, but I realize I'm out of step with

36:04

the rest of the culture. But in Scotland I wasn't out

36:06

of step with the rest of the culture. And as a

36:08

matter of fact, what a late

36:10

afternoon golf game that began at

36:13

4.30 one day at the old course, on a busy

36:15

day we played in three and a half hours. I

36:18

don't think that would happen today. So Stark

36:23

just does, you know,

36:25

represent... He

36:29

comes right out of the Hogan tradition in his

36:31

own way. You know, figure it

36:33

out for yourself and... and I

36:36

would add to that. And

36:40

don't take yourself so damn seriously. It's a game.

36:44

Tell me about making good sounds. Making

36:48

good sounds was

36:50

the very thing that led me

36:52

amazingly to have a golf game

36:54

with John Updike. And I'm not name-dropping, although

36:57

I just did name-drop. I definitely want

36:59

to hear about this. Name-drop away. This

37:02

is fascinating to me. So what he

37:05

believed, you know, the starting point for

37:08

Stark, by the way, I met

37:10

Sandy Lyle's golf pro father during this trip as

37:12

well. And

37:15

it was the same for Mr.

37:19

Lyle was that the golf swing

37:21

began with rhythm. And a

37:23

golf swing that didn't have rhythm was not going

37:25

to be a successful golf swing. And

37:28

Stark's point was that there are different

37:31

types of rhythm and

37:33

the shaft will make different sounds based on

37:35

the rhythm at which you are swinging.

37:39

And depending on your athleticism,

37:41

strength and age and lots of other things,

37:44

you will have a different rhythm.

37:46

And even Ernie Els and Tiger in

37:48

their prime, they hit the ball the

37:50

same distance, but they had different rhythms.

37:53

So he wanted you to think about the

37:55

whoosh sound that the shaft makes

37:58

that would have really several

38:00

different types of pitches as he described it. And

38:03

be aware of that, be aware of the air

38:05

in your lungs as you're making a backswing. And

38:08

to this day, I try to do that. This

38:12

is really name droppy, but it's true. So

38:14

I had a pal, Roger Angel, I'd met

38:17

him through baseball and some other things. And

38:19

he sent the book to John Updike. This

38:22

is my memory of him. And John Updike wrote

38:24

me a note down in the balloon. And

38:26

part of his draw to Golf

38:28

King, excuse me, he did love

38:31

Golf King, so it was kind of funny to say to

38:33

this book that we're talking about, two points line, was

38:36

that he liked Stark and he liked what Stark

38:38

was teaching. And he invited me up for a

38:41

golf game at his home club, Myopia Hunt. And

38:44

by the way, to speak of different eras,

38:46

he invited me to this golf game by

38:48

postcard. He set up the date by postcard.

38:51

Everything, he never gave me his phone number. And

38:53

I certainly never asked for it. Everything, no internet,

38:56

no email, of course, no texting, of

38:59

course, everything was by postcard. So I've

39:01

got a collection of postcards from John

39:03

Updike. It's this thick, just

39:07

set up this golf game and then the aftermath of

39:09

the golf game. Anyway, I'm one of the thrills

39:12

of my life. And then in this new version of Two

39:14

Bunks, and I've got an afterword, I described

39:16

that a little bit with Updike. Yeah,

39:20

it's a wonderful little scene.

39:23

And it's funny because another

39:25

great golf writer,

39:27

James Dodson, has written

39:29

about his own round with John Updike. I

39:31

forget which book it was in, but

39:34

that's a very memorable essay

39:36

slash chapter in

39:38

that book where he talks about how

39:41

John Updike goes about playing golf, which

39:44

I've never really heard about before.

39:46

Yeah, I'll figure out which book

39:48

it was in. But in any

39:50

case, let me just read

39:53

you something that John Stark said to you

39:56

and that you transcribed into the

39:58

Lynxland. He says, you

40:01

and by you he means Americans here.

40:04

You showed us that there's money in

40:06

golf. That had never occurred

40:08

to us. The money has corrupted

40:10

us all, all of us, myself

40:12

included. Once you start

40:15

making it, it's a damn cancer, the money

40:17

is. You start thinking, what can

40:19

I do to make more money? In

40:22

my generation, we went into golf

40:24

with no expectation of wealth. The

40:26

golf alone sustained us. What

40:30

does that make you think about now,

40:32

given the current state of the

40:35

professional game particularly? It

40:38

was deeply true then, and it's only more

40:40

true now. And that Stark

40:43

saw the handwriting on the wall.

40:46

And I don't think there's any question, but that

40:50

he's correct and it

40:53

hasn't helped the game at all. All

40:56

right. Let's talk about the reception of

40:58

To the Linked Land and the effect

41:01

that it had on you. We've already

41:03

discussed Updike Reddit. And I think

41:06

that after you published this book,

41:08

that there was certainly

41:10

a number of perhaps unexpected

41:12

things happened for you. What's

41:16

your memory of the initial reception

41:18

of the book? How did people react to it right out of the gate?

41:22

Well, it was lovely. Golf Digest

41:27

so generously excerpted it in not one but two issues.

41:30

As you were saying, Garrett, earlier, it's

41:32

got the in and the out portion,

41:34

the European Tour portion and the Scotland

41:36

portion. And Cherry Tardy, the editor

41:38

of Golf Digest, very kindly saw that

41:42

the excerpts really needed two goes at

41:44

it to make it work. I was

41:46

reported to the Philadelphia Inquirer at the

41:48

time. This is some years before I

41:50

joined Sports Illustrated. And

41:52

that helped greatly. And then the artful

41:54

way that he did it and

41:57

his colleagues at Golf Digest did it was

41:59

that it gave you a little bit but

42:01

not the whole thing where you might actually want to

42:03

read, go out and read the

42:06

book. And this is of course in the

42:08

early 90s, so in that period people

42:10

would actually, if they liked the book,

42:12

write you letters like the one I

42:14

got from from Uptight. But I

42:17

must have hundreds of letters at home and I haven't

42:19

thrown them out and I wouldn't throw them out from

42:22

just readers who liked

42:25

the book and got something out of it.

42:27

And what they think, you

42:29

know, two of them happened

42:31

to be sort of noteworthy because they were

42:33

former USGA presidents and

42:36

they wanted to find, there's

42:38

this secret course in

42:41

the book called Achnefre that Stark took me to, they

42:43

wanted to find their way to Achnefre, they did find

42:45

their way to Achnefre and then they wrote me about

42:48

the experience. So that was, you

42:50

know, quite an

42:52

amazing thing to hear from these sort of lions

42:55

of the game, Bill Campbell and Sandy Tatum. But

42:57

most of the people were like,

42:59

they wanted to practical advice about

43:02

going to Scotland or they just

43:04

wanted to share about their

43:06

own experience in the game or their own John

43:08

Stark. So anyways,

43:11

it was just a lovely thing and goes

43:13

on to this day, absolutely not a week

43:15

goes by where I don't hear from

43:17

some person I don't know but I feel, the reader

43:19

feels connected to me and I to them because I

43:22

to the reader, because of how

43:25

they're writing and what they're writing. Where

43:29

now for, you know, for 30 plus years, first

43:31

by letter and now

43:33

by email, I

43:36

just hear directly from readers who are

43:38

touched by early

43:42

marriage and the promise that it brings

43:44

and the simplicity that it brings, golf

43:47

in a more simple state, which are

43:50

remaining as a character, we've been talking about them,

43:52

Stark is a character, we've been talking about them.

43:56

An approach to life where of course you need money,

43:58

we all need money, we all need to. eat and

44:00

sleep and health and be clothed

44:03

and the rest. But it's not obsessively

44:06

more, not this attitude of more and

44:08

more and more, which, you know, just

44:11

raised by the parents I was raised with

44:13

I never had. So

44:15

it's been an incredibly enriching

44:19

experience to have this relationship with

44:22

readers for a long time now. Right,

44:26

and I would say that part of the

44:28

charisma of the book is the places that

44:30

you talk about. You mentioned Okna Free. Now

44:33

I haven't asked you questions about the

44:35

various courses that you went to in

44:37

Scotland intentionally because I

44:39

want people to read the book and discover

44:41

those places for themselves and find out what

44:43

you think about them. I think some mysteries

44:46

should be left there, but it should be

44:48

clear that that's a big part of

44:50

the second part of the book and a big

44:53

part of its appeal. This book

44:55

really has lived on. It's

44:57

one that people kind of talk

45:00

about in hushed tones and give

45:03

to each other for a while in recent

45:06

years. It was a little bit hard to find or a

45:08

little bit hard to find affordably and

45:10

people would kind of pass it between each

45:12

other. Why

45:15

do you think it has had this effect

45:18

when other golf books, I'm

45:20

not gonna say equally good golf books,

45:22

but very worthy golf books have

45:24

not lived on in the same way? Why do you

45:26

think To The Linked Land has stuck? It's

45:29

such a generous question and

45:33

I'm thoroughly enjoying

45:35

this conversation. I've

45:39

got two problems. Problem number one is

45:41

a tee time. Problem number two is

45:43

a computer that's 104%. Oh

45:46

no. If we suddenly die,

45:48

you'll know why, but I think we're okay. But,

45:52

and I'm happy to continue this later if you wish

45:54

to. The book

45:56

is overrated. I'm well aware of that. I'm

45:58

very critical about it. writing. I look at

46:01

it and it's like, you know, I would do

46:03

it so differently. But I think about everything that

46:05

I write. But the

46:07

book does capture, and

46:10

I think this is true of every

46:12

piece of writing, movies and other

46:15

things. There is an

46:17

underlying spirit to it of,

46:21

you know, it's called, uh, Chudlinson Golfing

46:23

Adventure. There is an underlying spirit of

46:25

adventure. And many,

46:28

many people are afraid

46:30

to get in touch with their

46:32

own adventurous spirit, even though almost

46:34

all people do have an adventurous

46:37

spirit. I was

46:39

very lucky to have the parents I had because

46:41

they encouraged my

46:44

brother and me both, um,

46:48

to explore our own,

46:50

uh, adventurousness. Not

46:53

really wearing that correctly, but, um, I'm

46:56

sure you get the idea. Um, so

46:58

I think the reader is coming away

47:00

from that. Um, sometimes not even

47:02

people are interested in golf at

47:05

all, but, um, uh,

47:08

but I have picked up on that from,

47:10

from readers over the years. So

47:13

Michael, in this book, your

47:15

mission, as you stated it in the,

47:17

in the first chapter was to search

47:19

for the primal heart of golf. And

47:22

I think it's, you know, it's

47:25

a happy book. It's a hopeful book in the

47:27

sense that you sort of

47:29

discover it in a lot of different

47:31

ways you go looking for the primal heart of golf

47:33

and you, you find it. Now

47:35

back then you, you did it by

47:37

following the European tour and playing Scottish

47:39

golf, I

47:42

have a hard time imagining what the

47:44

present day version of this adventure

47:46

would be. Do

47:49

you think it's harder to find the primal heart

47:51

of golf now than it was back in

47:53

1991? Really

48:00

good question. Probably yes, but

48:05

definitely doable. You know,

48:07

I'm here at this Epsom tour event and

48:09

I know at this just plain

48:11

Jane, very nice middle-class country club

48:13

course in Winter Haven, Florida. And

48:16

like the second I rolled in here, I was happy.

48:19

Because every one of these girls, women in

48:22

this field, women in this field, they're

48:25

on that same path as Peter Teremanin. And

48:31

you know, there's a local Dodge

48:33

dealer has

48:35

his car out in front. Ochner

48:38

Free, you know, the six-hole course that Stark

48:41

took me to in a wilderness. That's

48:43

not there, but other things

48:45

are there. And you

48:48

know, there's great public golf courses

48:51

everywhere you go. And

48:56

I think it's there, but I think you have to define

48:58

the terms for yourself and for

49:00

your era. And

49:02

I feel like I've stayed connected

49:05

to my own primal

49:07

search. You know, I don't

49:11

play these ping I2s that I play to

49:13

be eccentric. I play them because they make me happy.

49:15

And I know what they can do. I know

49:17

what they can't do. So

49:19

yes, I think the answer is yes. But

49:25

it's going to be different because nothing in

49:27

life is stagnant. Michael, thanks

49:29

for coming on the podcast. Okay,

49:32

thank you, Garrett. Thanks for the great

49:34

questions. This is thoroughly enjoyable. This

49:47

episode of the Friday Golf Podcast was

49:49

produced by Meg Atkins. Thank

49:51

you, Meg. If you

49:53

would like to support Friday Golf

49:56

on a different level, then consider

49:58

joining Club TFE. Go to thefriedegg.com.

50:00

slash membership and see what it's

50:02

all about there. But a big part

50:04

of the offering in Club TFE is

50:06

exclusive content, like a weekly, in-depth

50:09

course profile with a write-up about

50:11

the golf course and great imagery,

50:13

drone shots and illustrations from our

50:16

team. So that's the kind of

50:18

stuff that you get in Club

50:20

TFE. This is truly, I think,

50:23

thoughtful content about the game. So

50:25

if that sounds appealing to you, again,

50:28

the friedegg.com/membership is the place to go.

50:30

Thank you for listening to this episode and we'll

50:33

be back again soon with another.