0:01

it's tough . It's tough and I

0:04

get it in a sense I've been

0:06

through hard things . Sam gets it in a sense

0:08

. He's been through hard things , but we haven't been through

0:10

what you're going through specifically . The

0:12

only person who's done that is Christ

0:14

, and as you turn to

0:17

him you will start to

0:19

see how he

0:21

is able to potentially deliver

0:23

you , but even more potentially just

0:26

come and sit with you and just listen

0:28

and just cry with you . Sometimes

0:31

you just need a good cry .

0:35

Welcome to the From Grace to Grace podcast

0:37

. Today's episode is Man's Genesis

0:39

, adam and Eve and the Garden of Choices

0:41

. This is going to be discussing

0:44

some things about creation , adam and

0:46

Eve and the idea of moral

0:49

agency as opposed to regular agency

0:51

, so we'll get into that . But

0:53

we're grateful you're here and we hope

0:55

you enjoy the episode today .

0:57

I'm excited to be here . I love our

0:59

doctrine episodes . Right , that's

1:02

what this episode is specifically

1:04

today is a doctrinally-based

1:06

episode , and it's so great

1:08

that we're going through the plan of salvation as our

1:11

first set of doctrinal episodes

1:13

. I put quotations . The plan of salvation

1:15

is so foundational . The first

1:17

lesson that the missionaries teach is

1:19

first vision , and then the very

1:22

next lesson is plan of salvation . Salvation

1:24

because it teaches us who

1:27

we are , why we're here and where we're going like

1:29

the three most important questions in our

1:31

life and we get to learn a little

1:34

bit of why we're here today .

1:37

I think that that lesson

1:39

was always more interesting to

1:41

teach on the mission , just because

1:43

the other stuff was discussing the

1:45

lead up to the restoration . But

1:47

none of that really matters

1:50

if they're not Christian , so it's

1:52

like , okay , this might need to

1:54

be adjusted .

1:55

The reason why we have the knowledge of the plan

1:57

of salvation is because of the restoration , but

1:59

the restoration

2:01

was brought forth to reveal the plan of salvation

2:04

. Right , we are all here and

2:06

doing what we do because of the plan

2:08

of salvation . So , anyway , I

2:11

love the plan of salvation . I'm glad that

2:13

we're talking about it . I'm excited about today's

2:15

episode because I think today's episode

2:18

has some tricky

2:20

topics . Tricky topics . Tricky topics this

2:22

idea of and we can

2:24

talk about this this idea of , ultimately

2:27

, that quote-unquote original

2:29

sin and did God force

2:32

that ? This idea of where

2:34

does this evil come from ? Right , where does

2:36

evil stem from ?

2:37

Because , if God created all things

2:39

, that's going to be fun to get into

2:41

. The problem of evil is

2:43

probably my favorite topic

2:46

in terms of the philosophy of the church

2:48

. It's probably my favorite topic

2:50

to talk about , just because

2:52

of how wonderful it is to

2:54

know that we actually have the

2:56

answer to it .

2:57

Sure , and I love

2:59

that , to be honest , in

3:01

this episode . So the reason why we started this

3:04

podcast is because we originally we

3:06

had a debate one time about something

3:09

else that we can get into on another day , but

3:11

we we got into a debate and

3:13

that's why I originally was

3:15

like this podcast is going to be a great podcast

3:17

and I think I feel like today

3:19

there are going to be topics that we're going to get into that

3:22

you're like .

3:22

Hold on .

3:22

Hold on , no into that we just don't agree

3:25

on , and I'm excited about that

3:27

, right . So anyway , okay .

3:29

So to start out , I

3:31

want to kind of bring

3:34

up some of our source texts that we're going to be using

3:36

. And it's interesting

3:38

because for the creation and

3:40

for the Adam and Eve story that

3:42

we're all familiar with , there's

3:44

about five tellings , five

3:47

stories of it in

3:49

the church , and part

3:52

of this comes from looking at biblical

3:54

scholars and what they say

3:56

about Genesis . But then of

3:58

course , the others just are extra scripture

4:01

that we have . So

4:03

the first one , the first account

4:05

of the creation , is in Genesis , 1

4:07

to 2 , verse 3 . The

4:09

second one is from chapter 2

4:12

, verses 4 to 25 . And

4:14

then the third is Abraham , 5 . The

4:16

fourth is Moses , 2 . And

4:18

then , of course , the temple is

4:21

that fifth one .

4:22

I like myself some good Moses you know , I

4:28

think they're all problematic , oh , problematic they're

4:30

all problematic . Oh man , this is

4:32

wow this is juicy , juicy

4:34

gossip here , yeah it's it's .

4:37

They're all good in terms of like

4:39

the purpose , of why we have them , but

4:41

in trying to understand

4:43

it the way that members try to understand

4:46

it today , there's some serious issues

4:48

.

4:48

Yes , for sure . Well , and I think

4:50

again , when you take an eye

4:53

of not a

4:55

spiritual eye to it right , and you

4:58

take a scientific eye or just

5:00

a human eye to the text , you're

5:03

going to miss it , You're going to miss the whole point . And

5:05

so , yes , I agree , the way that

5:07

I think most Christians

5:10

come at this story , it's

5:12

not just membership of the church although we're

5:14

included in that I

5:16

think it's got to come from a spiritual

5:19

place . A spiritual reading of

5:21

the text . It's more than

5:23

just the words on the page , it's

5:25

the spirit

5:27

whispering to you the

5:29

truths that you're supposed to get from

5:31

those words .

5:33

Things like I am

5:35

created in the image of God

5:37

, which is something we'll get into , right . So

5:40

, to start off , I guess there's

5:42

problems in the texts . What

5:44

do I mean by that , right ? I'd say ? First

5:47

and foremost , the wrong

5:49

cosmology that we see is

5:51

one that I think is pretty easy to

5:53

point out If you look through Genesis

5:56

. There's a portion in Genesis

5:58

1 that says and God said

6:00

Let there be a firmament in the midst

6:02

of the waters and let it divide the waters

6:04

from the waters . And God

6:06

made the firmament and divided the waters

6:08

which were under the firmament from the waters

6:11

which were above the firmament . And

6:13

it was so . And God called the firmament

6:15

heaven , and the evening and the morning were

6:17

the second day . So two things here . One

6:19

, you've got this firmament , which is essentially

6:22

like the glass on a snow

6:24

globe that's being created here and

6:26

that's what we see with their cosmology

6:29

they have back then is they've essentially

6:31

got a snow globe version

6:34

of the earth that they're living in . And

6:36

that last bit that said there that

6:39

God called the firmament heaven . If

6:41

you look up in verse 1 , in the beginning God

6:44

created the heaven and the earth . God's

6:46

actually creating a place , heaven

6:49

, and so everything . There's

6:51

places beyond that heaven and that's

6:54

the chaos waters that God is creating

6:56

this earth inside

6:59

of .

7:00

Here's the other thing right , like a of

7:02

people get flatter from

7:04

from those phrasings right and

7:07

again the . The other phrasing that I find

7:10

that people get really confused on is

7:12

on day one they separate the light from

7:14

the darkness , and then on day four

7:16

, they create the sun and the moon and

7:18

the stars . And it's like what

7:21

do you mean ? You already did that . Like

7:23

what is separating light from darkness

7:25

other than creating the sun

7:28

? Right and again it comes back

7:30

to more of a spiritual

7:32

reading of the text , like what does light

7:34

symbolically mean ? In the gospel it's

7:37

going to mean the glory of god , and

7:39

I think you can look at that and see um

7:41

hints about like the in heaven

7:43

, where literally light

7:46

, god , jesus Christ

7:48

, was separated from darkness

7:50

, lucifer and his followers . And

7:52

so again it comes back to this idea of

7:54

even in the firmament text , we're talking

7:57

symbolically here of yeah

8:00

and again , I think you read

8:02

it as a whole . I think it's a blocked

8:04

read . You have to read the whole thing because what

8:07

it's showing you is God has order

8:09

, he has an order of doing things , he plans

8:11

things out and then he executes things . It's

8:14

not just hey , I

8:16

just feel like I'm going to do

8:18

this today it's like we're going to do

8:20

this and then this and then this

8:22

, we're going to do this and then this

8:25

and then this . The idea , for me personally at least , is God is

8:27

a God of order and he'll do things

8:29

in an orderly fashion that makes sense

8:31

.

8:32

Yeah , and so the spiritual reading

8:34

. You're able to draw all kinds of connections

8:37

and it's helpful in that way . But if

8:39

somebody's trying to look at it scientifically

8:41

and they look at the text , you'll

8:44

see the things like the firmament , like

8:46

the waters being divided from the waters , and you

8:48

get the old cosmology that they had

8:50

and it's not what

8:53

we have today . They didn't have Galileo

8:55

, they didn't have the scientific

8:58

findings that we have now . And so

9:00

even Paul in the New Testament , when he's talking

9:03

about the stars and

9:05

the sun and the moon having their

9:07

own light and we're like

9:09

the moon reflects the

9:11

sun and Paul would have been like what are you talking

9:13

about ? So

9:21

the old cosmology , at least in Genesis

9:23

, and when we find it in the other texts as

9:25

well as in the temple , it's

9:27

interesting to see how

9:30

many people will try and say , okay

9:32

, the firmament must be the atmosphere

9:35

, and they start drawing all these conclusions

9:37

that really aren't necessary .

9:39

We don't need that account to

9:41

be specifically scientifically

9:43

correct yeah , the other

9:45

thing that I say and I said this in the last

9:48

podcast episode of like , when

9:50

you are testing a scientific theory

9:52

about temperature , right , you're not going

9:54

to use a barometer it . That

9:57

just it's not . That doesn't make sense . If

9:59

you're going to test a spiritual theory

10:01

, you're not going to use a thermometer

10:04

to test a spiritual theory . You're

10:07

going to use spiritual needs

10:09

in order to test your spiritual theory

10:11

. And so if you're going to go to Genesis and

10:14

take a scientific approach

10:16

to it , it's not going to work

10:18

, it just won't . It won't prove

10:20

that God is real . Because ultimately

10:23

, at the end of the day , I think that's what people want to

10:25

do is they want to take scientific devices

10:28

, put them to the Bible , put them

10:30

to the Book of Mormon and say , okay , light

10:34

up , if this is all real , right

10:36

, and it's like that's not how this

10:38

works .

10:39

So there's that . At least we're

10:42

talking a little bit about that scientific and

10:44

spiritual dichotomy of

10:47

reading the creation texts . Now

10:50

the first thing

10:52

that we're going to get into with the

10:55

philosophy behind this stuff is

10:57

creation ex

10:59

nihilo and ex materia

11:01

, or creation from

11:04

nothing or from existing

11:06

matter . In the King

11:08

Follett sermon I keep quoting

11:10

back to this one , that's one of my favorites . But

11:12

in the King Follett sermon

11:14

Joseph Smith talks a little

11:16

bit about this word create , and this

11:19

is a good introduction to what

11:21

this is about . With creation from nothing

11:23

, he says you ask the learned doctors

11:25

why they say the world was made out of

11:27

nothing , and they will answer doesn't

11:29

? The Bible say he created the world . And

11:32

they infer from the word create that it must have

11:34

been made out of nothing . Now

11:36

the word create came from the word barau

11:38

, which does not mean to create out of nothing

11:41

. It means to organize , the same as a man

11:43

would organize materials , and so it's eternal , just

11:45

like us . The

12:00

pure principles of element are principles

12:02

which can never be destroyed . They

12:04

may be organized and reorganized , but not destroyed

12:07

. They had no beginning and can have no end

12:09

. So Joseph kind of gives an

12:11

introduction here to we have

12:13

creation from material

12:16

from existing matter . That

12:18

verse , abraham 3 , verse 24

12:20

, says near

12:23

the very end of the verse and we

12:25

will take of these materials and we will make

12:27

an earth whereon these may dwell , as well as in

12:29

the temple . We get the phrase matter

12:31

unorganized . Those two phrases

12:33

are pretty key points

12:36

to support what Joseph is saying

12:38

about how we don't

12:40

believe in creation from nothing . Christians

12:42

of course don't like that . They

12:44

want to be able to say that God just snapped

12:46

his fingers or whatever to create

12:49

the earth .

12:50

But so sorry , this thought just popped into my

12:52

head so it might be a cut thought , but so

12:56

from that it tells me

12:58

that the universe exists

13:01

in a state of chaos to

13:03

start , without God organizing

13:06

anything . It exists in an unorganized

13:09

state , which I would argue is chaos . God

13:12

then organizes it and creates

13:14

not chaos , and then

13:16

humans come into the world and partake

13:19

of the fruit chaos . We can talk about that

13:21

more later , but what I'm saying is

13:24

for me it almost feels more powerful

13:26

for a god to be able to take

13:28

a naturally chaotic

13:30

state and force it to

13:32

be an organized

13:35

, well-oiled machine . I

13:37

don't know . For me personally , that

13:39

speaks a lot more than a god that can just

13:41

say I

13:44

like the , the idea of god saying let there be

13:46

light and there was light , and we believe

13:48

that in in like a theoretical

13:50

sense and I think the

13:52

problems that arise with creation

13:54

from nothing , as we'll get into with

13:57

the problem of evil is

13:59

pretty bad .

14:01

If you have creation from nothing , we have

14:03

a lot of problems . Get

14:07

us back on track . Where were

14:09

we at ? Yeah , so Genesis . Let's pull

14:11

up first Genesis 2 , 7

14:14

, "and the Lord , god , formed man of the

14:16

dust of the ground and breathed into his

14:18

nostrils the breath of life , and

14:20

man became a living soul" . So

14:22

there's another spot where people

14:25

could probably say he's

14:27

pulling man straight

14:29

from the ground and there's

14:32

no way to have space for evolution

14:34

, things like that .

14:35

Oh sure .

14:37

So that's the spot where we , as members

14:39

of the church , would say we don't have to take that literally

14:41

. And in the very same case , we could

14:44

go back to the point of all

14:46

of this doesn't have to be taken literally

14:48

, like we don't have to take

14:50

it that way , but I also want to give space here

14:52

.

14:53

I agree with you . I think that

14:55

to be taken from the dust can mean

14:57

a lot of different things , but I

14:59

also want to give space here of like , there

15:02

are people out there who do

15:04

believe that God created

15:06

Adam directly from the dust . Right

15:08

there , right , no evolution , and

15:10

I think that's a fine reading of the text . If

15:13

that's where your faith lies

15:15

, I think that's totally fine

15:17

and I think that's valid and I think that's a beautiful

15:19

form of faith . I don't want you to

15:21

think that , like me and Sam being on this

15:24

podcast all of a sudden because we have

15:26

microphones , are the definitive source

15:28

right ?

15:29

Well , the church's points on this is

15:31

we don't have a position . Yeah

15:33

.

15:34

So you can believe you can have both . Yeah

15:36

, you can believe in evolution . You can not

15:38

believe in evolution . And I think it's important

15:41

to engage in dialogue of like , oh

15:43

, why don't you believe in evolution

15:45

? And you might point to this scripture or other

15:47

, you might point to revelation that

15:49

you've personally received in your own life , and I think that's

15:51

great and I think that's beautiful . And I

15:53

just wanted to go on this tangent real quick and be like

15:55

, hey , everybody has their own beliefs and I

15:57

think that's great and I think that's beautiful , and I think

15:59

that's what makes Zion Zion

16:01

is we're all one mind

16:04

, but that doesn't necessarily we're not all

16:06

unique .

16:07

Then let's jump down . We're

16:09

going through just some of the verses really quickly

16:11

. Yep , Genesis 1 now

16:13

verses 26 and 27 .

16:15

I can read that if you want .

16:16

Go for it .

16:18

And God said let us make man in

16:20

our image , after our likeness , and

16:22

let them have dominion over the fish

16:24

of the sea and over the fowl of the air

16:26

and over the cattle and over all

16:28

the earth and over every creeping

16:31

thing that creepeth upon the earth . So

16:33

God created man in his own image

16:35

and the image of God , created

16:37

he him male and female

16:40

, created he them .

16:42

Just to start , in

16:44

our church , in how we

16:46

interpret this is we

16:49

are created in the image of God

16:51

. Okay , what does that mean ? We believe it

16:53

means that we look like God . We believe that

16:55

God has fingers and eyes and ears and toes

16:57

and that we have a body

16:59

just like Him . So

17:02

that's our interpretation , whereas

17:04

I've heard of some other interpretations

17:06

of being we are created

17:08

in his image , as though we

17:10

have the capacity to love , the capacity

17:13

to have joy and to have emotion

17:15

. There's those different interpretations . What are your

17:17

thoughts on those ?

17:19

Being created in God's image could also be taken

17:21

in a context of like image could also be taken

17:23

in a context of like . Christ came down and embodied

17:25

a physical being

17:27

, right , a physical form that

17:29

looked like us , and Christ in

17:32

a colloquial sense is

17:34

God , and so it

17:41

could be interpreted in that kind of a sense as well

17:44

. Pointing us this scripture is pointing us towards Christ , christ also embodied

17:46

a human form .

17:47

Here's the thing the creation , adam

17:49

and Eve , moral agency . All of it is

17:51

so detailed that

17:53

already I feel like the episode is just

17:55

going so many different directions

17:57

so quickly . Is

18:05

that , when people are listening to this , that they'll be able to take one path that they're interested

18:07

in on this topic and research that further ? Just

18:09

because there's so much that we

18:11

just can't get into it all , or else this would

18:13

be like a two or three hour episode . Let's

18:16

jump to Genesis 2 again

18:19

and we're going to go to verse 18 . So

18:21

this one is also one that I

18:24

think is important for spiritual

18:26

purposes . It is not good that the man

18:28

should be alone . I will make him and

18:30

help meet for him . So

18:33

I just like how this

18:35

highlights the need for both man

18:37

and woman equity , equality

18:39

between the two genders . I think

18:42

it's important to recognize

18:44

that , like that's probably

18:46

one of the ones we can take the most face value

18:49

for at least our church is

18:52

we need both . We

18:54

need both in the church , we need both sides

18:57

, we need both of them . This

18:59

highlights the need for marriage as

19:01

well and how it's

19:03

. I remember President Nelson said

19:06

knowing that it was not good for man

19:08

to be alone . I chose to marry again , said . Knowing

19:11

that it was not good for man to be alone , I chose to marry again , and I think that

19:13

highlights just how important he

19:15

, and as well the rest of the church , sees

19:17

. We're not meant

19:19

to go through this life completely

19:22

alone , and in the unfortunate

19:24

case that that does happen , god

19:26

has provisions made for

19:29

everyone to be able to have that opportunity

19:31

if they wanted , and so I

19:33

just like I enjoy the fact

19:36

that right from the start of the creation

19:38

, god is saying everything's ready

19:40

except for this . We need this

19:42

to be in place so that they're

19:44

not going to fall apart while they're there .

19:47

Well , and I think it's also important to

19:49

recognize that not only are

19:51

women , in

19:53

just this idea of creation

19:55

, vital , but they're vital in Zion

19:58

right . We cannot

20:00

have a Zion community without

20:02

every single person

20:05

. We need everyone there on

20:07

an equal footing . Right , there's

20:09

this idea . And again , being

20:13

a gay Latter-day Saint , I

20:15

understand being not

20:17

in necessarily the

20:21

mold of a cis

20:23

, straight white male in the church . I get that . I've been

20:25

there , I understand that and

20:27

I understand that that can be difficult , but

20:30

I have a firm testimony

20:32

in

20:53

the sealing power and in

20:56

marriage between a man and a woman . And

20:58

again , for my LGBTQ

21:00

brothers and sisters who

21:02

might end up marrying

21:05

someone of the same sex , what I want you

21:07

to know , first and foremost , is that you're loved

21:09

and that we want you in the congregation

21:12

, we want you there , right ? We talked about this

21:14

last week with the episode about

21:17

my faith journey , so I just wanted

21:19

to add on to what Sam's saying and

21:21

just say those things of like yes , one

21:23

, first and foremost , marriage between

21:25

a man and a woman is doctrinal , and

21:27

I sustain that . A

21:32

man and a woman is doctrinal , and I sustain that and I uphold

21:34

that . But two , God is merciful beyond belief and he knows where you're at and

21:36

where you're going through . So , anyway

21:39

, I love the creation

21:41

account and I love specifically this

21:43

scripture about Adam needing

21:45

a helpmeet . Right , he needed the helpmeet

21:48

. It wasn't like oh yeah

21:50

, it might be a let's clarify , that's m-e-e-t

21:52

. Yes yes , it

21:55

wasn't just like uh , oh , maybe

21:57

this could be a good it was . No , this

21:59

is a required thing . You

22:01

are , you are not to be alone , and

22:04

we see this later on , like they

22:06

have to make this choice to not

22:08

be alone .

22:09

Ultimately , and again

22:11

, it's so important that

22:13

we recognize Does

22:16

that portion of make the choice later

22:18

on to not be alone ? Does that come from the temple ? Is

22:20

that what you're talking about ? I think that's where you're getting that

22:23

from , because I don't recall that being

22:25

in any of the readings .

22:26

Yeah , you can extrapolate it from the readings

22:28

, because Eve partakes of the fruit and

22:30

then Adam partakes of the fruit , yeah , and then adam partakes of the fruit . But

22:32

that conversation that happens is

22:35

is , I believe , in the only in the temple

22:37

, so , but you can extrapolate

22:39

that of like , well , adam , adam did

22:41

have to make the choice at some point and , and I do

22:43

believe there would be this sort

22:45

of discussion of like , hey , I'm

22:47

gonna get kicked out of the garden , I'm not allowed to

22:49

be here anymore . Will you come with

22:51

me ? And I think , I think

22:53

that is maybe

22:56

the greatest love story I've ever

22:58

read . You are , you're in a perfect

23:00

space , you're in a perfect place

23:02

.

23:02

So to then idyllic

23:05

space , I'd say there's . There's

23:07

no good and evil yet , but

23:09

it . But it's not perfect and wonderful and everything

23:11

.

23:12

It's just it is , but

23:15

wouldn't any place that God is

23:17

be perfect ?

23:18

inherently , in the sense that

23:20

it's not corrupted , yes , but

23:22

in the sense that Adam doesn't know

23:24

what he's losing ? Well

23:27

, technically he's not losing anything .

23:29

He's got to know at least a little bit

23:31

right , Otherwise it wouldn't be a choice . So

23:33

anyway , anyway , back

23:35

to what I was saying Greatest love story of all

23:37

time to go from even this Edenic

23:40

place . Life's

23:42

good Fruit just grows on trees

23:44

and you just eat them , and then you make baskets

23:46

.

23:46

There's no weeds .

23:47

There's no weeds to afflict and

23:49

torment . But what I'm

23:51

saying is , Adam chooses

23:54

to go with Eve ultimately

23:56

, and I think that's a beautiful story

23:58

and I love that story . I love

24:00

that Eve has this foresight

24:02

about the plan of salvation

24:05

and understanding . She is the reason

24:07

that we have Christ . She is

24:09

the reason , Do you not agree with that ? Well

24:11

, just explain what you mean . We , from

24:14

the premortal existence , needed

24:16

a savior . The only

24:18

way the savior would have come about would

24:21

be through Eve . So

24:23

the reason why we have a savior is

24:26

because the

24:28

transgression and to be

24:30

honest the necessary fall , the

24:32

necessary fall , and I

24:35

want a savior , I want someone

24:37

who I feel like I can rely on

24:39

and I can trust . I

24:41

want that . And ultimately

24:44

, I guess what I'm saying is , although

24:46

to celebrate transgression is

24:48

like a strange thing , we both

24:50

recognize that it was a necessary

24:53

step in the plan of salvation and

24:55

so to celebrate it maybe isn't the correct

24:57

word but to revere it is .

24:58

We'll get into that in a minute I'll explain Sure

25:01

.

25:01

Okay , you take us away . I've been going

25:03

off on a tangent for a second here .

25:05

So to get towards

25:07

what he's talking about , let's talk a

25:09

little bit about the conflicting commandments

25:12

. So some

25:14

people in the church think that there's a conflicting

25:16

commandment between multiply and

25:18

replenish the earth and don't eat

25:20

of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

25:22

. And because

25:24

we have 2 Nephi 2

25:27

, when Lehi says

25:29

they would have had no children

25:31

, and that's just in their state in

25:33

the Garden of Eden , they would have had no children . That's

25:36

where we get that point of

25:38

okay , so how

25:40

are they supposed to have children

25:42

if they're in the Garden , right ? So some

25:44

people can easily get into that point

25:46

of there's conflicting commandments . But

25:48

there's also that what

25:50

I prefaced this entire episode with the

25:53

two creation accounts , the commandment

25:55

to multiply and replenish

25:57

the earth comes in that first one in Genesis

25:59

1, . Near the very end , just after those verses

26:02

, we read about man being created in

26:04

the image of God . That's the multiply and replenish the earth

26:06

. Multiply and replenish the earth . The second

26:08

one comes in the

26:10

second account in Genesis 2

26:13

, 17 . If

26:19

you are reading them separately , there are no conflicting commandments because

26:21

there's no other commandment given . So there's one way

26:23

. That's one way you can read , and I believe I got

26:25

that one from Ben Spackman

26:28

. He's a really good scholar and

26:30

he points this out and I

26:33

thought I'd share that as well today . But then

26:35

the other portion is if they are

26:37

to be read together , as most

26:40

people read them together , what do we

26:42

do ?

26:42

Yeah , no , here's the thing

26:44

. I'm not gonna pretend like I know

26:48

because I struggle with this , this

26:50

. This is one of those things , right , like you say , some

26:52

people in the church struggle with this , some people

26:54

are tyler gordon , um , so

26:57

, like it , it really does feel

26:59

like god was like hey , don't eat

27:01

of the fruit , but also multiply and replenish

27:03

the earth . And with second ephi we

27:05

learn but you can't multiply and replenish

27:07

the earth .

27:08

So why can't ? Would have had no

27:10

children , that's

27:12

where we get into the weird spot .

27:15

But what does ?

27:15

would mean yeah , right , right . So

27:18

that's where he starts to have a headache . Tyler

27:20

is leaning back in his chair , so

27:23

sad .

27:23

Shaking my head .

27:27

So that's where we get into . Some of the issues

27:29

is would have had no children . What does

27:31

that ?

27:31

mean yes . It feels very conflicting

27:34

to me , because this is where I

27:36

have to take this information

27:38

and just kind of internalize . Even

27:40

after this conversation that we're going to have today , I

27:43

don't think I'm going to be satisfied with an answer . And

27:45

so I've got to take this information and say , okay

27:47

, I don't understand this part

27:50

of creation or the plan of

27:52

salvation or Adam and Eve , and I've got to say

27:54

, okay , what does that mean ? Ultimately

27:56

, at the end of the day , I know Jesus

27:58

is the Christ and I know Joseph Smith restored

28:00

the church , so this small portion

28:03

isn't going to affect my testimony . It's

28:05

something that I can chew on , that I can

28:07

go back to and be like huh , this still

28:09

doesn't make sense , let me think about it . But I

28:12

think the important thing to recognize is not

28:14

everything in the gospel is going

28:16

to make sense immediately , because if it

28:18

did , jesus wouldn't have taught in parables

28:21

Some things you've got to sit

28:23

and think about . So , anyway , continue

28:26

with this .

28:28

In my opinion , Continue

28:31

with this , in my opinion , conflicting commandments . Yeah , so you have the two

28:33

commandments and with the added

28:35

help of Abraham and Moses and the

28:37

temple and everything that we get from modern

28:39

prophets , the understanding

28:42

that I have is that , if you

28:44

were to read it together , god

28:46

sets up the Garden of Eden in

28:48

such a way that , one , he avoids

28:50

being the source of all evil , which is

28:52

something we'll get into here in a minute but

28:54

then , two , he sets it up so

28:56

that it's their choice , which is part of that . He's

28:59

not the source . He sets this up

29:01

saying I need

29:03

you to multiply and replenish the earth , but

29:06

I'm also going to forbid taking

29:08

the fruit that will get

29:10

you to that point . If that would

29:12

not have had children means

29:14

can't . He sets this up so

29:17

that they have to make a choice , and

29:19

at this point they do not have

29:21

what I call , and what the scriptures call

29:23

, moral agency . They don't

29:25

have the choice between right and wrong

29:28

. They only have a choice between right and wrong . They only have a choice . So

29:30

when they make this choice to take the fruit

29:32

, they aren't really

29:34

responsible for that yet , and when they eat

29:36

it , that's when they realize oh shoot

29:38

, we've done something wrong Before that

29:41

they just knew like we have two

29:43

commandments and

29:45

so it's kind of a weird

29:48

space . But when

29:50

they take that fruit they

29:53

then have moral agency and they say , okay , now

29:55

we're making choices , that we're actually

29:58

understanding , that we can know

30:01

the right and wrong between .

30:02

Well , and I think the thing that gives me

30:04

solace , or at least gives my mind

30:07

a little bit of rest , is , to be honest , they

30:09

could have stayed in the garden forever

30:11

. They could have , like , had that been their

30:13

choice , they could have . And I think

30:15

that gives me rest and solace

30:18

because and we also

30:20

don't know how long they were in

30:22

the garden maybe a few million years

30:24

, maybe a couple billion , maybe trillions

30:26

we don't know right Maybe five

30:28

days , like we truly , truly don't

30:31

know and so it gives me

30:33

solace in this idea of like

30:35

, yeah , they had the choice and

30:37

they got to make that choice , and

30:40

in some ways , eve was able to make that

30:42

choice , having a basic

30:44

understanding of being able to

30:47

go through life in a better way

30:49

.

30:49

Right , yeah , and I think

30:51

them having no

30:53

knowledge of good and evil makes it a little

30:55

, like you said , more solace and

30:58

comfort for that , because they're like

31:00

two-year-olds at this point . They don't

31:02

understand right and wrong , they just know

31:04

I can choose to do this and I can choose

31:06

to do that . They don't know what's right

31:08

and what's wrong . Right , because the tree has

31:10

that knowledge , and so when

31:13

they eat it , that's when they get moral agency

31:15

. So they're in

31:17

this childlike state

31:19

and because of what we have

31:21

with 2 , nephi would

31:23

have had no children . If that meant can't

31:25

, then they wouldn't

31:28

have been responsible for not having children

31:30

because they didn't know good and evil yet . Sure

31:32

, right , even though God's sitting

31:34

there telling them not to do

31:36

this and to do this

31:38

, they don't know good and evil

31:40

. They can't be responsible . Yeah

31:45

, I think it's the Book of Mormon

31:47

that talk really specifically about

31:50

the knowledge of the

31:52

law , and having a law given

31:54

is what makes someone responsible

31:57

for their sins . And if they don't

31:59

understand the law , or if

32:01

they don't understand right and wrong , that's

32:04

when they are no longer responsible

32:06

.

32:07

Yep , that's why they call it a transgression is

32:09

because it's not inherently a

32:11

sin , because they didn't understand

32:13

right from wrong at that point . They

32:15

still did something wrong , but that

32:18

doesn't necessarily mean that they understood

32:20

fully the choice .

32:22

That's why it's a transgression . They did something

32:24

wrong , but they didn't understand what they were doing . And

32:27

there's actually a wonderful talk , from Elder Oaks

32:29

, I believe , where he talks about

32:31

that dichotomy between the two . I can't

32:33

remember the title , but if someone finds it , let

32:36

us know and maybe we can link it . Is

32:38

there a way to link it in show notes ? Okay

32:41

?

32:41

100% there is . I

32:43

also want to preface here as well , as

32:45

much as we've been saying , like they didn't know exactly

32:48

the choice they were making . It was a transgression

32:50

. I do believe in some

32:52

ways Eve knew

32:55

a lot about the plan . I

32:58

don't know , it's not scriptural , this

33:00

is Tyler Doctrine . My tie , metaphorically

33:03

, is over my shoulder right now . But

33:05

Eve was an intelligent

33:07

individual and I

33:09

super respect her and

33:12

I do believe in Tyler Doctrine

33:14

that she had to have some

33:16

sort of inkling about the plan , otherwise

33:18

why partake of the fruit ? Yeah

33:21

, there's an annoying serpent there who

33:23

you know , you've probably been dealing

33:25

with for the past two days

33:27

or five years or 10,000

33:29

years . I want to believe

33:31

that Eve must have known something

33:34

. I get really weary , but

33:36

like when she says is there

33:38

no other way ? Well , the no other way comes from the temple Right .

33:39

That's why I'm like this is going to be a cut thing . Well , the no other way comes from

33:41

the temple Right .

33:43

That's why I'm like this is going to be a cut thing . Well

33:45

, it doesn't have to be . I guess not . I just get

33:47

really weary about quoting directly

33:50

. But when she says is

33:52

there no other way , it

33:54

indicates to me that she understands

33:57

. Okay , this is the path

33:59

forward .

33:59

Also funny thing . You mentioned the serpent , yes

34:02

, and it brought to mind the fact that we

34:04

never actually get in the Genesis

34:07

account . We never get any confirmation

34:09

that that's Satan .

34:10

Oh for real .

34:11

So that comes from later scripture . So I

34:14

believe that we get the Satan

34:17

being the serpent . I believe we can also get that from

34:19

the Bible later on . Okay , but

34:21

I think it's just serpent , never

34:24

Satan . Anyway , that's

34:26

interesting . That's a little side thought . Where

34:29

do you want to go next ? I want to add something here at this

34:31

point in the episode is we've covered

34:33

, like I said earlier , we've covered so many

34:35

things and only touched

34:38

the surface of so many things , and

34:40

I feel like I'm butchering so

34:42

much of this that it's I

34:45

feel bad , but at the same time I'm

34:47

thinking the time constraints force

34:49

this to be this way . So I'm

34:52

going to make a little challenge

34:54

earlier on and we'll have another one at the end

34:56

of the episode , but I'm going to send a challenge out there

34:58

to if something we said doesn't

35:00

make sense and here's the thing if all

35:03

of it has made sense so far , something's wrong

35:05

. But if

35:07

something hasn't made sense , go

35:09

and read some more and listen

35:11

to some scholars , talk

35:13

to others in your family about

35:16

things like this . Just get some discussion

35:18

, get some reading , get some information

35:21

, more information on all this . The BYU

35:23

websites , of course , have great stuff with their

35:25

religious studies and things like that .

35:27

A single podcast cannot

35:30

answer everything . By two random

35:32

people cannot answer everything . Other

35:34

podcasts with well-known individuals

35:37

who do Come , follow Me can't answer everything

35:39

and I'd be willing to bet

35:41

that they'd agree with that . Follow me can't answer everything and I'd be willing to bet

35:43

that they'd agree with that . That's why we have general conference every six

35:45

months is because not because it's like , well

35:48

, the gospel is revealed and we know it all

35:50

. No , there are nuances that

35:52

we learn daily and

36:00

so I love what Sam said here is yeah , we're going to talk a lot about a bunch of different things , but

36:02

we're not going to get into everything , and that's why

36:04

it's important to engage with us on

36:06

social media . So if you do have a topic

36:08

that you want us to talk about , comment

36:10

that , let us know and we'll take it into

36:13

consideration and think about it . But again

36:15

, we want to cover as much as

36:17

possible , but understand that it's

36:20

not possible to cover everything

36:22

. Much as possible , but understand that it's not possible to cover everything

36:24

. How long Joseph Smith was doing what he did

36:26

? From 1830 to 1844

36:30

? So 14

36:33

years . There's no way an

36:35

hour-long podcast episode can cover

36:37

everything that he said or did in

36:40

14 years , or any

36:42

of the prophets and apostles from

36:44

the restoration time till now

36:46

, moving on from there we

36:49

can look at what we get

36:51

from the fall .

36:52

We get a world full

36:54

of moral choices . Oh

36:56

, and I'll add in here the

36:59

age of accountability is

37:01

something specifically set out in Scripture

37:03

, for you can baptize your

37:05

kids at this age . Not necessarily they're

37:07

accountable at this age . Some kids

37:09

can be more accountable at seven , six

37:12

, or some can be accountable at

37:14

10 , and some

37:16

will never be accountable . Some people just never get to the

37:18

point where they're accountable . So

37:21

that's a little something on

37:23

the side and we'll get back to

37:26

the other stuff .

37:27

I have a comment . Eight is very symbolic

37:30

, right . Like in the law of

37:32

Abraham , right , circumcision

37:34

happened on the eighth day . It's

37:36

this idea of seven days

37:39

of creation , six days

37:41

of creation , one day of rest . Eight is

37:43

the day , a new day

37:45

, right , the start of something new

37:47

. And so the age of eight

37:49

is also going to be symbolic around

37:52

that idea of . And so that's why

37:54

, when you say some people are accountable

37:56

before the age of eight , some people are

37:58

accountable later , eight

38:00

is a very symbolic thing , and

38:03

I think that's something important to remember

38:05

as well . In terms of ordinances

38:07

, it's all symbolic , right , it's

38:10

all a physical representation

38:12

of a symbolic thing that you're doing .

38:14

So , anyway , so we

38:16

have moral agency , at least

38:18

once we're accountable . Everybody has

38:21

moral agency . We live in this world with sickness

38:23

, entropy of all kinds , and

38:26

so we have bad choices

38:28

being made , and this is where

38:30

we're getting into the problem of evil . We

38:32

live in a world with evil and

38:35

this is where the premortal life

38:37

really gets . Important

38:39

is we made

38:41

the choice to be here before we came . We

38:44

agreed to the plan that there's

38:46

going to be sickness , there's going

38:48

to be death , there's going to

38:50

be all kinds of suffering . We

38:52

knew this was coming . We

38:54

essentially signed a waiver , if you will , and

38:57

God set up the

38:59

creation here that we've talked about

39:01

in such a way that he

39:03

avoids being the source of evil , because

39:06

he's given that to Adam and Eve

39:08

, and said I'm not going to

39:10

make the choice to bring this to pass , I'm

39:13

going to let you do so , and

39:15

essentially it's they

39:17

already agreed . Yeah , we're going to be the

39:19

ones that's going to bring this about

39:21

because of the premortal

39:23

life . I hope this is making sense

39:26

. This is something that takes

39:28

a lot to explain and I don't

39:30

think I'm explaining it perfectly , I think you're

39:32

doing fine . What matters

39:35

to me is the fact that the

39:37

way God set up the creation

39:39

leaves him out

39:41

of the source of evil

39:43

.

39:44

Well , and you look at the

39:46

true source of evil . Is Lucifer right

39:48

? Yes , would you agree . His

39:51

agency , his choosing

39:53

to rebel against

39:55

the Father in the pre-mortal life and

39:58

to continue to rebel as

40:00

we journey through this mortal

40:02

life ? That's

40:10

where the serpent quote-unquote comes in and tempts Adam and Eve . This all

40:12

stems from Satan , and Satan being a spiritual offspring

40:14

of the Father in Heaven it's

40:18

a different theme .

40:19

He was never created out of nothing . That's the point

40:21

. He never was created by created out of nothing . That's the

40:23

point , yes , is he never was created by God

40:25

out of nothing . Therefore , anything that

40:27

he does is his own choice , not

40:29

God's , which is so important to me

40:32

personally , because I think if

40:34

God in any way was to

40:36

create anyone or anything out of nothing

40:38

, he has placed inside

40:41

of them the capacity for evil , and

40:43

in that case he has

40:45

placed inside of them the capacity for evil , and in that case

40:47

he's

40:51

the source of evil , he's an accomplice to it , and that's really problematic . And so I think that creation

40:53

from nothing is reprehensible in my eyes , and

40:56

so that's at least my personal

40:58

view is , with creation

41:00

from nothing , you get a God who is evil

41:03

, or at least is the source of evil , and

41:05

I am not willing to accept

41:07

that .

41:08

Well , and it also with

41:10

intelligences being eternal

41:13

before even God . That's

41:16

where you get this idea of

41:18

that is something on

41:20

its own , that is its own entity

41:22

, and that own entity can make

41:24

decisions such as rebel

41:26

against God .

41:28

Or make the decision to follow God's

41:31

plan , to progress Amen

41:36

when we get sent

41:38

here to earth . It was not out

41:41

of a forced thing . We chose to come

41:43

here . Any suffering we go through and any

41:45

suffering we give out is

41:47

something that everybody has

41:49

already agreed to in a sense . And

41:52

it's tough that way

41:54

, because we're still sitting here and we're like this sucks

41:56

. And we're praying to God

41:59

and we're saying please , this sucks

42:01

, please send comfort . But

42:03

beyond that we can't really blame him

42:06

, because he said here's the

42:08

plan , here's the stipulations

42:10

, are you willing to go through with this

42:12

? And a third of everyone

42:14

said no , and that

42:16

was their choice .

42:17

I also just think you know , sometimes

42:19

it's more than this

42:22

sucks , right , this is

42:24

unfair . A lot of the things

42:26

that I find in life are unfair

42:28

are because of other people's

42:30

choices . You and I have had this

42:33

discussion before about God being

42:35

a hands-on God versus a God

42:37

who lets things play

42:39

out and allows us to have

42:41

our agency , and I think there's a perfect balance

42:44

between those contraries , but I

42:46

find that a lot of the suffering that I

42:48

go through specifically is because

42:50

of the choices of other people . Now

42:53

let me flip that on

42:55

its head and say there are some sufferings

42:57

that are just there just because

42:59

they're there . Right , I've talked

43:01

about my same-sex attraction . That's not a choice

43:04

that anybody made at any one point

43:06

, and so it's those kinds

43:08

of things that I'm not going to lie . Sometimes

43:11

I look up at God and I'm like why

43:13

? Why me ? I'm proud

43:15

of who I am , but yet it's hard

43:17

. It's hard to be who I am , and

43:20

so that's

43:22

where the Savior comes in and he's

43:25

able to succor us , he's able

43:27

to comfort us . He doesn't

43:29

always take away the trial . Sometimes

43:31

he does . Sometimes he

43:34

asks us to

43:36

walk on the water , and we walk on the water , and

43:38

then sometimes we end up drowning

43:40

a little bit and he comes to save us . So

43:42

all of that to say , yeah

43:45

, we knew coming into this

43:48

life in the premortal existence it

43:50

was going to be tough , it was going to be impossible

43:52

, but we decided to come anyways

43:55

. And that's

43:57

not to discount anyone's

43:59

suffering or anybody's trials

44:01

, it not to say , like , well , you

44:04

agreed to it , so you better buck

44:06

up and be better right , like I think that

44:08

there is a that's . That's not the point of that

44:10

no yeah I think there's a healthy point

44:12

to saying like , yeah , real trauma

44:15

, real trials happen . It's

44:17

tough . It's tough and I

44:19

I get it in a sense

44:21

. I've been through hard things . Sam gets it

44:23

in a sense , he's been through hard things , but we

44:25

haven't been through what you're going through specifically

44:28

. The only person who's done that is

44:30

Christ , and as you

44:32

turn to him , you will

44:34

start to see how

44:36

he is able to potentially

44:39

deliver you , but even more potentially

44:41

just come and sit with you and

44:43

just listen and just cry

44:45

with you . Sometimes you just

44:47

need a good cry .

44:49

Yeah , and I think that's a great

44:51

way to bring

44:53

the episode close to a close

44:55

is with the promise

44:57

of Jesus Christ , any

44:59

of the evils that come

45:02

because of the fall are going

45:04

to be rectified , are

45:06

going to be fixed , and

45:09

in the case of our own personal

45:11

choices , all that's left is

45:13

repentance and just

45:15

improvement and progression

45:18

. When Adam and Eve left the

45:20

garden and we have

45:22

this from , I believe , Moses they

45:24

are doing sacrifices , they're

45:26

out in the world and

45:29

from the very beginning

45:31

, they're told of Jesus Christ and

45:33

His atonement . I think it's important

45:36

to remember that , with all of the nuances

45:38

and all of the issues that we could

45:40

find in the scriptures , the

45:43

important thing is that our

45:45

theology pulls God

45:48

from being the source of evil and instead turns

45:50

him into the source of comfort and

45:52

joy and peace and succor

45:55

from evil .

45:58

Yeah , I think at the end of the day these are going

46:00

to be my closing remarks and then we can get to a call

46:02

of action and an outro

46:04

. But my closing remarks are going to

46:06

be this If you struggle with

46:08

the creation account , if you

46:11

fully believe in flat earth , that's you .

46:14

If you struggle with morals

46:16

and evil or Adam and Eve's situation

46:18

conflicting .

46:19

Commandments , yes , evil or Adam and Eve ? Situation conflicting commandments

46:21

yes . Like what

46:23

I want you to know . With all of that

46:25

conflicting commandments , with

46:27

all of this right , package it all up , put

46:29

it aside for a second . Ask the

46:32

question is Jesus the Christ

46:34

? Did Joseph Smith restore

46:36

Jesus Christ's church ? And

46:39

if you can answer those questions and both of those

46:41

are yes , then unpackage

46:43

this again , rewatch the episode , relisten

46:46

to the episode and be like oh yeah , no

46:48

, that makes sense . This doesn't make sense . I don't agree with

46:50

this whatsoever . But ultimately we

46:52

need to be focused on Christ

46:55

and I love that the end of

46:57

each of our episodes have turned

46:59

into just talking about Jesus

47:01

Christ and how he relates to

47:04

the episode . I think that's a beautiful

47:06

thing . I think it's through his grace

47:08

that we find peace

47:10

and comfort in these stories

47:12

that sometimes don't make sense or

47:14

don't . And again , like

47:17

I said earlier in the episode , I struggle

47:19

with the quote-unquote conflicting

47:21

commandments . I still do . I'm still

47:23

. This feels weird to me . I don't

47:26

know that I understand or can sit well with

47:28

that , but I do know that

47:30

Jesus is the Christ and I do know

47:32

that Joseph Smith restored Jesus

47:34

Christ's church on the earth . I know those

47:37

things and because I know those things

47:39

, the rest can fall behind

47:41

in line . So those

47:43

are my closing remarks . I love the creation

47:46

story . I love the story of Adam and Eve

47:48

. I love those stories . I

47:50

love Eve and her

47:52

willingness and courageousness to go

47:54

through this hard thing so that

47:56

I can be here sitting with

47:58

Sam doing a podcast

48:01

, here

48:05

sitting with Sam doing a podcast . I just I love this idea of the eternal love of

48:07

God which we find in that story of Adam and Eve . So go ahead and hit us with

48:09

a call to action .

48:11

Well , and to preface this invitation

48:13

, the last I

48:16

think it was in the Premortal Life

48:18

episode . You were saying I want more scripture

48:20

about the war in heaven . I

48:22

think for me I would love more scripture

48:24

about Adam and Eve , the creation

48:26

and some of the things revolving

48:29

problem of evil and morals

48:32

and creation from nothing . I think to

48:34

have more of that would be fantastic

48:36

because it would answer a lot of our questions

48:39

that we get from scripture

48:41

that was written for certain

48:43

purposes that don't answer those purposes

48:46

. But as we

48:48

finish up here , I want to invite you to

48:50

read or listen to the

48:52

BYU speech from David L Paulson

48:54

Joseph Smith and the Problem of Evil . Personally

48:58

, I feel like it's a great intro to

49:00

creation from nothing

49:02

and the problem of evil . He gives

49:05

some really good . He gives some good explanation

49:07

on this and how Joseph

49:09

Smith relieves God of

49:11

the issue of being

49:13

evil or being an accomplice to evil

49:15

. So I think that would be a great way

49:18

to try and flesh out

49:20

some of your understanding . That may be

49:22

a little rocky , especially

49:24

after our amateur attempts

49:26

to explain things . That's

49:29

what I have and I

49:32

think we can go ahead and do the outro

49:34

. I'll let you do that

49:36

.

49:36

Thank you all again for listening

49:39

. We are very appreciative

49:41

of the support that we've been seeing on the podcast

49:43

. We wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't for listening . We are very appreciative of the support that we've been seeing on the podcast . We wouldn't be doing

49:45

this if it wasn't for you and

49:48

your support , and we really do appreciate

49:50

that . We are excited

49:52

about this episode and upcoming episodes

49:55

. We are going to start to have some guests on

49:57

the podcast , so be prepared

50:00

and excited about that . We have some great guests

50:02

lined up . It's

50:04

going to be so much fun . But now

50:06

we have a TikTok account that

50:09

we don't use . You

50:24

can follow it for funsies , but

50:26

we are

50:29

putting out a lot of stuff , so make sure to

50:31

go follow those socials . As

50:33

I've said , thank you for the support and

50:35

we will catch you in the next episode

50:37

. Bye , bye .