0:02

In April of last year, a

0:04

huge leak of classified documents began

0:06

making headlines. Top secret documents

0:08

about the war in Ukraine have appeared

0:10

on social media. Investigations

0:13

are underway into the leak of

0:15

classified Pentagon documents. The worst leak

0:17

of U.S. national security intelligence in

0:19

many years. The source of

0:21

the leak was a young Air

0:24

National Guardsman named Jack Texera. In

0:26

March, he pled guilty to sharing

0:28

intelligence secrets on Discord, the popular

0:30

chat platform. He kept posting

0:32

and posting and posting. He's

0:34

working in this highly sensitive facility

0:37

and then he goes home and

0:39

hops onto Discord and

0:41

it's a racist, paranoid, anti-Semitic

0:43

free-for-all. Washington Post reporters Shane

0:45

Harris and Sam Oakford have been covering

0:47

the story since the start. And

0:50

they collaborated with Frontline on the

0:52

documentary, The Discord Leaks. We

0:54

were talking to the people who did know who was

0:56

leaking it. I spoke to

0:58

them about their reporting and the latest developments

1:01

in the story, along with

1:03

our director, Tom Jennings. I'm

1:06

Renee Aronson-Roth, editor-in-chief and executive

1:08

producer of Frontline. And

1:10

this is the Frontline Dispatch. The

1:23

Frontline Dispatch is made possible by

1:25

the Abrams Foundation, committed to excellence

1:27

in journalism, and by the Frontline

1:29

Journalism Fund, with major support from

1:32

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1:34

for Frontline Dispatch comes from the Massachusetts General

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Learn more at

1:48

massgeneral.org/cancer. So Shane,

1:50

Sam and Tom, thanks so much for joining me on

1:52

the dispatch. Great to be here. Thanks,

1:55

Renee. So I want to start

1:57

with the leaks in 2022. Shane, as

1:59

a long-time national security reporter. Tell

2:01

me about what it was like then

2:03

and what was in those leaks? Well,

2:07

I think that speaking for

2:09

myself and probably Samfield this way too when

2:11

we first saw the leaks that were coming

2:13

across It

2:15

was pretty amazing to actually see

2:18

these highly classified documents You

2:21

know showing in great detail things about the

2:23

war in Ukraine activities in China, North Korea

2:25

I mean it was immediately clear that we

2:27

had kind of hit a mother lode really

2:30

big intelligence information And

2:33

you don't really come across that all that

2:35

often and certainly not under the circumstances that

2:37

we'd seen it here where it was Being

2:39

shared on the discord platform So

2:42

as a journalist it was actually pretty

2:44

thrilling to come across that information the way

2:46

that we did and Sam

2:48

just your your Understanding the sort of

2:51

gravity of this. What are you thinking?

2:53

Well, my background is, you know, pretty different

2:55

than Shane So I hadn't reported on a

2:57

big intelligence leak before and in some ways

2:59

I think it might have been helpful because

3:01

I was focused initially a lot on where

3:04

it was coming from and didn't have time

3:06

almost to register just how insane it was

3:09

that there were hundreds of documents that Shane

3:11

just described so and then you know then

3:13

we joined up and we appreciated that together

3:16

Before the world knew who Jack was

3:18

Sam you were talking to people who did

3:20

know him What was that kind of tenor

3:22

of the conversation you were hearing about who he

3:25

was? What are some of the first things you heard about?

3:28

We heard from people who knew him on discord and

3:30

they were pretty clear that that he was someone involved

3:32

in some way with the military right, so I remember

3:35

early on we were trying to figure out if he

3:37

was a Contractor someone

3:39

like that Like Snowden who

3:41

might have had access to material that way or if

3:43

he was really, you know We're in fatigues right and

3:46

going somewhere maybe evening this overseas And

3:48

we got the impression that he was someone who was young

3:50

someone who spent a lot of time online But

3:52

was in the military so it ended up kind

3:55

of matching what we ultimately learned about him

3:58

Yeah, and Sam when you're thinking about

4:00

how you talk to them. A lot

4:02

of this was confidential. What

4:05

were the conversations you and Shane were

4:07

having about confidentiality and how you could

4:10

protect people as they were talking to you?

4:13

That was always something we discussed

4:15

immediately at the outset of these

4:17

conversations because they were so sensitive,

4:20

right? I remember early on when

4:22

we were doing this reporting, we expected the

4:24

FBI to show up at any point. You'll

4:26

recall that there was this week, right? Where

4:29

this was in the news, but no one had figured

4:31

out exactly who was leaking it, but we were talking

4:33

to the people who didn't know who was leaking it.

4:36

Shane, you're so experienced in this

4:38

area, but this is so particular. It's younger

4:41

people. Yeah, that was really one

4:43

of the key differences here as opposed to so many

4:46

leaks for national security stories. I reported

4:48

on so many of these kids

4:50

were, they were kids. They were

4:52

under 18. In some cases, we had to get

4:54

parental permission to speak with them. So

4:57

that in and of itself was very different from

4:59

most of the work that I do. But

5:02

what was also, I think, impressed Phil

5:04

Sam and I is the more we

5:06

talked to people who had spent time

5:08

with Jack online, the more we really

5:10

understood that he spent so much of

5:12

his life online and that these relationships

5:14

that he had formed with other young

5:17

people in discord were kind of like

5:19

the foundation of his social life. They

5:21

were his friends, even though many of

5:23

them had never met in person. And

5:25

so we were able to

5:27

really start fleshing out Jack as

5:29

a person and not just as

5:31

this kind of shadowy figure that

5:34

had leaked all of this classified

5:36

information. So Tom, you

5:38

enter in as the filmmaker here. I

5:41

know we had so many conversations, you and I, about

5:43

how do you make something like this

5:45

into a documentary, right? It's very hard

5:47

to do any type of national

5:49

security reporting in our forum, in the documentary

5:51

forum. So talk to me about that and

5:53

that process for you. We

5:56

started out immediately meeting with

5:58

Sam and Shane. getting

6:00

deeply involved in their reporting

6:02

process. And as a

6:04

collective, we early on decided that

6:06

there were two essential strands of

6:09

reporting for the film that we had to

6:11

follow. One was the national

6:13

security realm, the security access. Like what,

6:15

how did Jack do what he did?

6:17

How did he get access to where

6:19

he went? The other side was

6:22

Discord, this forum. And

6:25

speaking just for myself, I knew

6:27

very little about Discord itself. But

6:30

those were the two areas. And we relied

6:32

on Sam very strongly for

6:34

the Discord element and Shane, given

6:38

his background, very much

6:40

for the national security part of it. I

6:42

really put this out to all of you.

6:44

What made the Discord platform a place in

6:46

which this could flourish and these conversations

6:49

could happen in the ultimate leak? Discord

6:53

is a pretty good product, actually. It's something

6:55

that does what it sets out to do.

6:57

It has these, you

7:00

know, what's what are called servers, right? Which

7:02

essentially are housed on a big server that

7:04

Discord owns. It's all different than what all

7:06

school computer people might think of. But

7:09

it gives you an impression that it's that

7:11

it's a kind of a private space, right?

7:14

And that's predominantly the way people experience Discord.

7:16

And you know, you might you might guess

7:18

that it leads to certain behaviors, right? Good

7:20

and bad. It encourages people to have that

7:22

sense of privacy, security, feeling

7:24

that they're talking to their friends. And that's

7:26

that's the marketing that the company uses

7:29

to push it. And in this case, I

7:32

think it gave to Sarah,

7:35

a place where he felt comfortable, you

7:38

know, talking to people at all all

7:40

hours, these kids would describe, you know,

7:42

using video chat, using text chat, basically

7:45

being tethered to this platform in this

7:47

community. And, you know, we

7:49

have to talk about the pandemic here in the

7:51

role that that it played in pushing people on

7:53

to Discord. So that's kind of a setting. That's

7:56

what sets up this story where

7:58

when he ultimately then leaks. Yeah,

8:00

and just to expand upon what Sam said

8:02

about the pandemic, one reason

8:04

that Discord was really a

8:07

lifeline or, you know, a harbor for

8:09

a lot of these kids was because

8:11

they weren't in school, their schools were

8:13

closed, you know, social distancing restrictions, which

8:15

we all remember, kept them from hanging

8:17

out with their local friends, their in

8:19

real life friends. Right. But Discord became

8:21

the gathering point. And I think that

8:23

it really impressed upon us that the

8:25

pandemic was so key to this story

8:28

because it made them all kind of

8:30

collect and concentrate on this

8:32

Discord platform. And they think

8:34

that plus the sort of the nature of

8:36

being online and having a bit

8:38

more anonymity, where you say things you

8:41

might not ordinarily say to people, to

8:43

their face, kind of all snowballed into

8:45

this culture where they

8:47

were, you know, sharing classified documents, they

8:50

were making horrible jokes, they were, you

8:52

know, doing things that I wondered

8:54

often that, you know, if they were in an

8:56

in real life environment, would they think twice about

8:58

the things that they were saying or doing? Yeah,

9:01

I mean, and one of the things that I

9:04

found the most interesting in the reporting that you

9:06

all did is that that line between this sort

9:08

of joking, right, that they think is a joke

9:10

to actual, you know, very

9:12

harmful language that was racist. And

9:14

then there's, of course, the decision to

9:17

share classified documents, right?

9:19

Jack just pled guilty. But what

9:22

do we know about the

9:24

motivation behind sharing his

9:27

motivation? Jack was somebody

9:29

who from a really young age, we found

9:31

in talking to friends, you know, enjoyed demonstrating

9:33

how much he knew about a subject, you

9:35

know, military history or the history of weaponry

9:38

or the specifics of, you know, tanks and

9:40

guns. These were things that he really kind

9:42

of geeked out on. And once

9:45

he's sort of getting access to classified information

9:47

about current events, particularly the war in Ukraine,

9:49

that was a big one, we found that

9:52

he really seemed to want

9:54

to impress these young people with all

9:56

the things that he knew that ordinary

9:58

people did not that he was. wanted to

10:00

show them that he knew things that were

10:02

happening in the secret realm. He had access

10:04

to classified information. And it was kind of

10:07

a flex, I think, for him

10:09

to prove to people

10:11

that he really knew what he was talking about

10:13

when he would expound upon world events as he

10:15

often did. And it's interesting.

10:18

One of the motivations often for people to

10:21

leak is because they want to demonstrate some

10:23

kind of authority or knowledge about a subject,

10:25

but it's often because they want to expose

10:27

what they think is some kind of wrongdoing

10:29

or maybe a misguided policy that they

10:31

don't agree with. I'd never

10:33

encountered somebody who was leaking documents

10:35

essentially to impress a bunch of

10:37

his teenage friends. But

10:40

that really just seemed to be at what was at

10:43

the core of Jack's motivation. A big part of

10:45

it was showing off. Tom,

10:47

so you did a really great

10:49

job, I think, in the film showing this

10:51

culture. How did you get inside that world

10:53

so that we would understand it better? Those

10:55

of us who are not teenagers on Discord?

10:58

Well, it is kind of like an

11:01

alien culture to people our age, really,

11:03

my age. I should speak for myself.

11:05

But there are a lot of

11:08

ways that we got into it. The

11:11

first thing I'd say is that the

11:13

family really shut off. We couldn't get

11:15

access. And so we

11:17

decided fairly early

11:19

on that there was this

11:21

other family that existed online. There were the people

11:24

who Jack shared his world with on

11:26

Discord. And so they kind of became

11:29

our stand-in for the family and a

11:31

way to get inside his head. In

11:33

many ways, I think that they were actually even

11:36

more instrumental and gave us a bigger

11:38

lens, a more focused lens on his

11:41

thinking and his brain. So

11:44

we went about trying to get access to

11:46

those folks, to the people, the

11:48

kids really, the young people who were online

11:51

with Jack. And that became a

11:53

process that was piecemeal.

11:57

It was following threads

11:59

that that really were

12:01

first pulled by Chris

12:03

Degenpoor and Sam and Shane at

12:05

The Post. They really

12:08

kind of found online ways to get

12:10

access to these folks. And

12:12

it was a month-long process, slowly, slowly

12:14

getting into their lives, contacting them first

12:17

anonymously online and then, you know,

12:20

with more direct contacts. And then

12:22

inevitably, what we needed really was

12:24

in-person contacts to put people on

12:27

camera. It was just a

12:29

very long, arduous process that, you know,

12:31

what documentary filmmaking really does pretty well.

12:33

We had the time and the ability

12:35

to do that. The

12:38

journalism behind the Frontline Dispatch is possible

12:40

thanks to the support of you, our

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by making a gift at frontline.org. Thank

12:51

you. Let's

12:55

talk about the reporting that you did just a

12:57

few weeks ago. You both reported on another

13:01

leak on Discord, allegedly from another

13:03

member of the armed forces, this

13:05

time an Air Force intelligence analyst

13:07

named Jason Gray. You wrote

13:09

that Gray's case bears striking similarities to the

13:11

story that we tell in our

13:13

documentary. So can you both tell me more

13:15

about what you've learned? And Sam, again, I'll

13:17

start with you. Well,

13:20

I think that there's a lot

13:22

of parallels there and you can kind of break them

13:24

down, right? You can talk about the time period. There's

13:27

an overlap here when Gray was,

13:29

you know, on Discord and he's

13:31

into guns in a

13:33

way that maybe is a little bit different than

13:35

the average gun owner is. He was putting what

13:37

appeared to be silencers on his weapons. He was

13:40

posting images on Discord showing him

13:42

with firearms. And that's something that we

13:44

know Jack also did. In fact, we

13:46

obtained video that showed Jack doing this

13:48

and then sharing on Discord. That's

13:50

very vivid. Including a video of him

13:52

saying racist and anti-Semitic things

13:55

before firing a weapon. So just in

13:57

terms of their use of Discord.

14:00

at a certain period when they were

14:02

without a lot of other social avenues.

14:04

That's a starting parallel. Maybe Shane can

14:06

talk about the other ones. Yeah.

14:09

Like Jack, the Stacen Gray person worked

14:11

in an intelligence facility. He had access

14:13

to classified information. What

14:16

we learned was that the

14:18

government was investigating him initially because

14:20

they suspected that he had ties to

14:22

extremist groups and that he was in

14:24

particular either a sympathizer

14:26

or supporter with his group called

14:29

the Boogaloo, which is essentially an

14:31

extremist group that is anticipating a

14:33

second civil war and an anti-government

14:35

group. As they started

14:37

looking into him, what they found on

14:39

his Discord page, according to an FBI

14:41

affidavit, or his Discord account, was it

14:44

looked like he was sharing some kind

14:46

of a classified image or document with

14:48

friends on Discord who were aligned

14:51

with this Boogaloo group. Now,

14:53

what we subsequently learned afterwards is

14:55

that the document in

14:57

question was actually a picture. And

15:00

while they eventually determined that the

15:02

image itself, it's not clear if

15:04

he took it or not, was

15:06

technically not a classified document, it

15:08

is a piece of highly sensitive

15:11

information that this person was sharing

15:13

from the base with

15:15

these other people on Discord.

15:19

The threads that the government sort of pulling

15:21

when they got into this are what ultimately

15:23

led to them finding out that he had

15:25

also been sharing and distributing a huge amount

15:27

of child pornography, which was ultimately a set

15:29

of charges that he pleaded guilty to. So

15:32

it's another one of these ways in which

15:34

once the government kind of went down the

15:36

rabbit hole of his Discord account, they found

15:38

all of these other troubling instances of extremist

15:41

group alignments sharing this highly sensitive

15:43

information with people who shouldn't see

15:45

it. And ultimately, the charges that he

15:47

pleaded guilty to on videos

15:50

that were horribly graphic and exploitative of

15:53

children. So I

15:55

Guess I Have to ask you, Shane, as a

15:57

National Security reporter, Is your work changing? Changing

16:00

the nature of what you. Are

16:03

reporting on mean this is just

16:05

really, you know, Revolutionary Sauce.

16:08

Yeah. I think it is changing a lot and

16:10

me to think that you know him as

16:12

a self imposed a guy never experienced someone

16:14

who is leaking to impress you know his

16:16

teenage friends. but I think that we're we're

16:18

seeing here is. Kind. Of

16:21

many, the way that a lot of these weeks

16:23

are going to go in the future because they're

16:25

just so many people who have access to classified

16:27

information. And as we seen time

16:29

and time again, there really aren't that many

16:31

practical obstacles to keeping them from releasing. It's

16:34

yeah, I can remember a conversation I had

16:36

a number of years ago. With

16:38

somebody who had recently last thou on

16:41

the intelligence agencies to set something at

16:43

the time to me sounded so kind

16:45

of fantastical he said in a one

16:47

of the things that were worried about

16:49

is that. As. Gaming platforms

16:51

become more popular. Foreign intelligence services like

16:53

the Russians are are China's intelligence service

16:56

are going to start scoping out for

16:58

potential leakers and recruits on gaming platforms

17:00

like try and find the person who

17:02

is playing a game not far from

17:04

an essay and Quarter is and maybe

17:06

start talking to them and ask them

17:09

where they work and D C anything

17:11

interesting at work as how the time

17:13

like wow that's that's kind of a

17:15

really going to futuristic scenario like hi

17:17

winter things really will play out that

17:19

way. Well. And Zac Stacy wasn't

17:22

recruited by a foreign intelligence agency, but

17:24

you could absolutely see both how he

17:26

could it's and the ways in which

17:28

kind of like the vector, the behavior

17:31

path and leaking at that official as

17:33

ascribing years ago ultimately came through with

17:35

jacket. Sarah. My I mean

17:38

it's us as you are speaking seen

17:40

as thinking i her be stand the

17:42

spacing keep putting those types history and

17:44

son and that sort of gravity about

17:46

desk So let's talk about described as

17:48

a circuitous critic that a given our

17:50

sound but what what what has he

17:52

been hearing in general the described and

17:54

side of that sort of they sang.

17:57

Turned. If what discord has said. It

18:00

made a point that they can't know. What?

18:02

Are classified material is right, kiss of it's

18:04

It's very nature A, but I think something

18:06

that we got out hopefully in the in

18:09

the documentary and in our reporting is that

18:11

there are certain trade offs they're very open

18:13

about on their platform and map. They.

18:15

Are essentially comfortable with. Effectively

18:18

a little or no are monitoring of

18:20

what happens across was in fact the

18:22

majority of it we look at my

18:25

kind of yeah it's actually taking place.

18:27

It's. It's not the monitor to.by

18:30

and large except for very narrow.

18:32

Ah it seems like see Sam I'm so

18:35

so that's just sitting there at their open

18:37

about and in a didn't really feel that

18:39

that had to change based on this case.

18:43

Yeah. I would see to the scene

18:45

of The Discord. knows that it's platform

18:47

is very attractive to extremist groups you

18:50

know, the Charlottesville Rally and Twenty Seventeen

18:52

for unite, the Right, Organize and Discord.

18:54

The know this as anything beyond. To

18:57

their credit they are. they're trying to

18:59

take steps to to to combat it.

19:01

that's practically speaking as Sam as describes

19:04

the way the system is set up,

19:06

a buffer, a set up in else

19:08

they're not really positions to be able

19:10

to monitor for people sharing. you know,

19:13

racist. Rhetoric for people organizing in this

19:15

way. It's and as they pointed out

19:17

us time and time again. look, it's

19:19

up to the government to tell us

19:21

what's a classified document. We'll know when

19:23

a classified document as amps, but you

19:25

know it's It's pretty clear that the

19:28

company understands that they have these problems

19:30

and you know it's it's kind of.

19:32

You know it's built into their business

19:34

in the sense that this platform is

19:36

attractive, precisely because offers so much privacy

19:38

and virtual and antimony. right?

19:40

So let's not talk about the Airforce

19:43

any Canada ld their. Intensive. How this

19:45

could have happened on and also you know of course

19:47

they released a big report on the and son in

19:49

his mouth. Yeah. The

19:51

Air Force inspector General didn't investigation at

19:53

Odis or national guard base which is

19:55

the base said jack work and he

19:57

worked in an intelligence organization there and.

20:00

The secure facility so called it's called

20:02

a skiff on this report was blistering.

20:04

There's really no other way around it

20:06

on what they documented and and you

20:08

have reported on National Security for twenty

20:11

five years now. I have to agree

20:13

with their findings, was basically a total

20:15

breakdown in the way that's you are

20:17

supposed to secure a classified information the

20:20

rules for handling it. Who gets to

20:22

see it up at the bar at

20:24

at the bottom line of it as

20:26

that Jack had no business given his

20:29

job as a computer. Tech Support Workers

20:31

looking at these classified documents that

20:33

were contained on the computers in

20:35

the networks that he was helping

20:38

to maintain. Its and Will was

20:40

really starting to us I think

20:42

was Will. We learned that he

20:44

had been spotted on different occasions

20:46

looking a classified documents taking notes

20:48

on them. In some cases, all

20:51

things that were just gigantic red

20:53

flags. Yes, And he was never

20:55

pull off the line. He was

20:57

never relieved of his duties. He

20:59

wasn't reprimanded, And the Air Force

21:01

Inspector General essentially points to that. It

21:04

says you know you can almost see

21:06

them sort of like throwing their hands

21:08

up at best and saying why in

21:10

the world was this young man Never

21:12

report adds the commander of the Intelligence

21:14

swing at the base was relieved of

21:16

his command. down, there was other disciplinary

21:18

action, was taken armed. I came away

21:20

from that investigation thinking I don't believe

21:22

for one sack at that these kinds

21:25

of glasses are unique to this one

21:27

base because once people explain it out,

21:29

for instance, why. They didn't report shock

21:31

to security authorities, they said well we

21:33

didn't want to get him in trouble

21:35

or he now the security guys come

21:38

and then it's the whole process. Mister

21:40

A poking around and you know it's

21:42

a really owners think well that's gonna

21:44

be true it any other place they

21:46

suspect. slightly more fun than investigations and

21:49

gangs it out. I doubt that Odis

21:51

is alone and having such ah, lax

21:53

standards are and even yo and men

21:55

many cases. it's a fundamental misunderstanding of

21:58

how you're supposed to handle flat. The

22:00

Buy Cigarettes. Pray that

22:02

the has a lot of graves

22:04

indications And it's time when you

22:06

think about the end of the

22:08

documentary. Rate the question of what's gonna happen

22:10

from. Here on you know, Jack

22:13

pled guilty. What?

22:15

Were you? The story goes from. Here Tom

22:17

Well, just an echo What changes

22:19

said I'd say. There's. Gonna

22:21

be many more similar circumstances that

22:24

are going to happen and I'll

22:26

take this as a one off

22:28

case at all with regards to

22:30

Jack himself. Day.

22:33

He's he's going to be

22:35

sentenced in the coming months.

22:37

eleven years bitter slates. He

22:39

gets in prison and is

22:41

going to be. yeah, I

22:44

think kind of the consulate for

22:46

the military I'm I'm curious myself

22:48

to know what's the rebels are

22:50

there, what has happened in the

22:52

military and this security clearance process

22:55

which I said we sell a

22:57

well indicted in this film and

22:59

in the reporting as being lax.

23:01

I'm I'm very curious know what happens next

23:03

or with the Pentagon and how they go

23:06

about recruiting. I mean, What? Jax.

23:08

Case shows is this huge vulnerability

23:11

at the heart of the intelligence

23:13

apparatus. ah of an insufficient system

23:15

preventing people, and a system that

23:17

build so that people can get

23:19

access to secrets and share them

23:21

with practically from ever they want.

23:23

And I think that is gonna

23:25

be a major challenge for the

23:28

military and intelligence agencies going forwards.

23:30

Ah, Aids relief. Not something that

23:32

they're fundamentally built to address right

23:34

now, so that's gonna be a

23:36

really a big part of the.

23:38

The terrain that I cover ah for

23:41

the next several years I thank My

23:43

As Great Fire for future frontline documentary.

23:45

Say protect think you guys sitting on

23:47

the dispatch. And thought

23:49

thanks and good. Thanks.

23:53

Again to seen Harris Sam Oak for it

23:55

in time Jennings for joining me on the

23:57

dispatch. You can watch the discouraged the sun.

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