0:01

For two years, reporter Dana Miller-Irvin

0:04

has been investigating the mental health

0:06

care system in North Carolina. What

0:08

she found was ultimately a broken

0:11

system. Nowhere has this

0:13

been more evident than in the state's

0:15

treatment of jail inmates living with severe

0:18

mental illness. What are they telling

0:20

you about why you've been here so long? I'm

0:22

not getting any information. Inmates who are too sick

0:24

to stay on trial can spend months in jail

0:26

waiting for space in the

0:28

state's strained psychiatric hospitals. I think

0:30

he's being held beyond a reasonable amount

0:33

of time. They're not getting the hip

0:35

that they need on the outside. Fractured

0:37

is a new film streaming online. It's

0:41

also an 11-part radio series

0:43

from WFAE in North Carolina,

0:45

produced with support from Frontline's

0:47

local journalism initiative. I

0:50

spoke with Dana Miller-Irvin from

0:52

WFAE and the film's director,

0:54

Deborah Solsasilva, about their

0:57

work on Fractured. I'm Raini

0:59

Erinsen-Roth, editor-in-chief and executive

1:01

producer of Frontline, and

1:03

this is the Frontline Dispatch. The

1:10

Frontline Dispatch is made possible by

1:12

the Abrams Foundation, committed to excellence

1:15

in journalism, and by the Frontline

1:17

Journalism Fund, with major support from

1:19

John and Joanne Hagler. Support

1:22

for Frontline Dispatch comes from the Massachusetts

1:24

General Hospital Cancer Center, dedicated to providing

1:26

compassionate care and cancer specialists who are

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experienced in the cancer you have. When

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you hear the word cancer, their team

1:32

is ready. Learn more

1:34

at MassGeneral.org-slash-cancer. Deborah

1:37

and Dana, thanks so much for being on the

1:39

Dispatch. Thank you. So

1:41

Dana, let's start with you. You've been reporting

1:43

this story as a series on WFAE in

1:45

North Carolina for the past two years. What

1:48

actually led you to begin this project

1:50

focusing on mental health in North Carolina?

1:53

Well, I'd been a health care reporter, and

1:56

I heard about inmates who

1:58

cycle between the and the

2:01

hospital for years before

2:03

they can ever stand trial. And

2:06

I live in a town with one of

2:08

the state's three psychiatric hospitals. So I was

2:11

able to get confirmation

2:13

from a hospital attorney that this was a really big problem

2:16

and that in fact people can sometimes

2:19

get better in the hospital and

2:21

then go back to jail to await trial

2:24

and get so much sicker that they're hard

2:26

to help a second time. So

2:28

you were basically hearing that there are

2:30

people who live with mental illness

2:33

being cycled in and out of the hospital and

2:35

in the jail. Did you get a sense in

2:37

the beginning of how big the

2:39

problem was and how did you even

2:41

attempt to understand beyond the anecdote what

2:43

was going on? Well, that

2:45

was a big problem. There was no

2:48

data, right? There was no data. We

2:50

ended up having to go out and collect

2:52

the data. I started out just

2:55

meeting with public defenders and trying to

2:57

hear from them. I tried

2:59

to meet with public defenders all across the

3:01

state. And it was astonishing

3:04

because you go into these meetings and they're

3:06

going, oh yeah, this is

3:08

a problem and we see this over and

3:10

over again. And oh, by the way, have

3:12

you been told about this story and have you

3:14

been told about this story? And

3:16

each of these things, I

3:18

realized we had a series. I

3:21

mean, that's really fascinating that as an

3:24

investigative journalist, your first question is, okay,

3:26

how do you go beyond the

3:28

call that gets made to you to be

3:31

able to say something about systemic failure really

3:33

comes down to the data that you and

3:36

WFAE were able to collect? And that's

3:38

how it got on our radar frontline. Okay,

3:41

so Debra, I

3:43

want to ask you, you came in

3:45

through the door of our Firelight Filmmaker

3:47

Fellowship, which we're so thrilled you joined us.

3:49

And thank you for doing that. And

3:52

we really said to you, you could choose

3:54

the film that you want to make with

3:56

frontline and you chose this film. Tell me

3:58

about why you feel like you're here. felt

4:00

inspired by this territory to take it on.

4:04

Yeah, well, first of all, thank you so much

4:06

for having me. So I

4:08

came on board on this project about

4:10

a year ago. That's

4:13

when Dana was still working on

4:15

her radio series. She

4:17

and I had many conversations about

4:19

the stories and sources that she

4:21

came through. To me,

4:24

each and every story from her

4:26

11-part radio series, they were version

4:28

stories that were crying to be

4:31

told. But the one that was

4:33

particularly striking, in my

4:35

opinion, was the segment on

4:38

the defendants who are to seek to

4:40

stand trial. They are waiting many months

4:42

just to get off hospital bed. And

4:45

in some cases, they are getting sicker

4:47

as they wait. So I

4:50

immediately thought, as a field baker, I

4:52

know those are the voices that are

4:54

not often heard, just because it can

4:57

be so hard to get cameras inside

4:59

of jails. That is going to be

5:01

my next question. Getting cameras

5:03

inside of jails is increasingly hard.

5:06

I think it's really important to talk about access

5:08

in this film. Because

5:11

I think all of the film

5:13

really hinges on the level of access the

5:15

two of you are able to negotiate to

5:17

get cameras in, even to the hearings.

5:19

We were really struck by that.

5:22

Because frankly, seeing is believing.

5:24

When you see that court

5:26

scene, you're like, oh, right. This

5:29

is why it's so difficult for

5:31

the lawyer, for the person

5:33

who's in jail, for the judge. It's a

5:35

very complex scene. So

5:38

when I started with the radio

5:40

series, I very much wanted these

5:42

to be personal stories. That

5:45

was critically important to me that

5:47

you heard from the people, that you

5:50

heard from the defendants, that you heard

5:52

from the family members. The

5:56

way I planned it all out was I spent

5:58

five months. Really? Just.

6:01

Meeting. With people and meeting with

6:03

people and getting them to trust

6:05

me I'm and meeting with them

6:07

over and over and over again.

6:09

He can feel that until they

6:11

until they were willing to give

6:13

access and. I

6:15

have to say that part about was also. Being.

6:19

Trustworthy for that that if someone said to

6:21

me i can't give you access to whatever

6:23

and if I let you in, please. Avoid.

6:26

That. That's. What I said By

6:28

right? And so that. Over. Time

6:31

earn trust and then once the

6:33

first. Radio stories came out. It.

6:35

Was really amazing. I mean I got a call

6:38

from. Someone in a state psychiatric

6:40

hospital for said. We're. All just

6:42

cheering for your We're so grateful that you did this.

6:45

Way. I can see that records.

6:48

They were so desperate for actual

6:50

information and data to help them

6:52

understand what was going on. Right

6:54

on. So back to access. Let's

6:57

talk about Dylan The. Source you

6:59

know my middle showed and into and

7:01

we meet. Dylan Ledford In The Sounds.

7:03

Are still hear noises course but most of

7:05

whom voices and he says that a cheap

7:07

is on your plane and on the table.

7:10

Why did you decide to focus on Ham

7:12

And why has he been in custody for

7:15

so long as going to be serious public

7:17

defenders? And this is not the story that

7:19

we did in the film, but one public

7:21

defender. Told. Me: Ah,

7:25

Of another story which was. Inmates

7:28

who serve life sentences on

7:30

the installment. Plan because they're. Of

7:32

their mental illness. That. They just go

7:35

cycling in and out of jail and out of

7:37

jail sometimes and very minor crimes for years. And.

7:39

So I said I have to do that story

7:42

and they gave me a list of names of

7:44

people they expected back in the jail. And.

7:47

One of them was still an. Answer.

7:49

When I met with him. One

7:52

of the good things about Dylan is. He's

7:54

very smart. So.

7:57

I felt that he could actually give

7:59

informed. In fact, that he could actually do

8:01

this. And that was.

8:04

Of. Also very important point that the whoever.

8:06

I interviewed had to know. That.

8:09

I was a journalist, I was in a

8:11

lawyer, wasn't a doctor and and so. He.

8:15

Was one of the people I suggested to Deborah. And

8:18

so devoid of what did you see And ham. Yeah.

8:21

You know, I had many conversations with Dana

8:24

and his name would always. Come

8:26

in. The conversation as he analyses had

8:28

already to revealed him for her. Read

8:30

a series. Once. You see ham?

8:32

You hear the thing said. he says. You.

8:35

Realize this is a man who

8:37

are urgently needs medical care. And

8:40

yet he's not entail waiting for

8:42

a bad. When. We'd all be

8:44

able to move on with his case because he

8:47

is. Incapable to proceed to guide

8:49

week since the so that we focus on

8:51

the phone. One. Of the

8:53

Rts. as said, we phones.

8:56

Was. The court theory, right?

8:58

Any. Good ones that attorney

9:00

Veronica Martelly on our she filed a

9:02

motion to dismiss this case. And

9:05

see argue that he was. Being

9:08

held beyond a reasonable amount

9:10

of time in jail. He.

9:12

Got a camera inside of the code

9:14

role. He was out of ten minutes

9:16

passes. the and all her Molson was

9:19

was denied and I remember leaving that

9:21

poured. Rome and I looked for Dana

9:23

and we were like. Now

9:25

I understand why does is going

9:27

on. Let's. Go back for one in

9:30

it and I and Dana Media can help us with

9:32

us. What does it mean to be? I T

9:34

P and capable to proceed. So

9:37

I did. The Us Constitution defendants

9:40

have to be able to understand

9:42

their charges and to assist their

9:44

attorneys. with their. Defense.

9:47

And if they can't do that because

9:49

of a mental illness. Then.

9:51

They're considered to be incapable to proceed

9:54

or I T P. In some places

9:56

they call it incapable to stand trial.

9:59

That. Puts. The case on hold.

10:02

And. Nothing. Can happen

10:04

at that point until the air

10:06

of mental capacity is. Restored.

10:09

And. That's the problem. So. These cases

10:11

are on hold and then if you have a

10:13

long time to wait for it State psychiatric bet.

10:16

You're. Just waiting. And. If you

10:18

go to State Psychiatric hospital and you

10:20

get restoration that's not full treatment, that's not

10:23

getting you well so you can go on

10:25

with your life is getting you to the

10:27

point where you can work with your attorney

10:29

and I can. Often. Usually.

10:32

I think involves miss some medication.

10:35

But. It's really a lot of education

10:37

about the court. System. This. Is

10:39

a judge? This is a jury. And

10:42

that. And so so these people are.

10:44

They're not ready. the just. Go

10:47

and go on with their lives once

10:49

they're restored. And and that's why when

10:51

they get back to the jail they

10:53

can see compensate so quickly and then.

10:56

Get worse and have to go back

10:58

to the hospital. How does somebody be

11:01

com or be designated. As I T

11:03

P. So someone is

11:05

charged. They become a descendant. And

11:08

at that point. The

11:10

defence attorney will interview them and

11:12

meet with them. If the defence

11:14

attorney. If later the Dj

11:17

if the judge if anyone says

11:19

he starts thinking. They.

11:21

Don't understand the charges. They can't assists

11:23

in their own defense. Then they'll go

11:25

and they'll ask. For. A

11:28

psychiatric evaluation, And

11:30

then they have to be evaluated. Is

11:33

the evaluate or says

11:35

we agree? they're probably

11:37

not. Capable of

11:39

standing trial, then. That.

11:42

Evaluation goes to the judge and he

11:44

makes that decision. Sometimes I will say

11:47

yeah and this is part of why

11:49

the process is so long. Sometimes.

11:52

The defence attorney will call in

11:54

and evaluate, ask for an evaluator.

11:56

The evaluation will say the he's

11:58

incapable to proceed. But.

12:01

The. Prosecutors. Says

12:04

or one another. Evaluation. And

12:06

so. Now you have to wait

12:08

for a second evaluation. And. In.

12:11

The process can. Take. A

12:13

long time yes either. One of the first

12:15

interviews that revered was way for on a

12:17

come on pill and suits he is. Or

12:20

the allows for as a thorny

12:22

and one of the things that

12:24

she told me is that was

12:26

our clients is found to be

12:28

I pp incapable to proceed. This

12:30

can be a really really frustrating.

12:33

Thing security needs to take. Things.

12:35

A scene he can a it's nice

12:37

you're were to trade they can take

12:39

a t. Deal. There's nothing that can

12:41

happen in a sort see those wants

12:44

to kick take the as he client.

12:46

They're gonna be sitting in jail for

12:48

a long time. The

12:50

journalism behind a frontline dispatch is

12:52

possible thanks to the support of

12:54

you our listeners. Join us

12:56

in supporting journalism that holds our

12:59

leaders accountable and pursues the truth

13:01

wherever it may lead by making

13:03

a gifted front line.org slashed dispatch.

13:06

Thank. You. Deny.

13:08

Know the sense of course a local

13:10

story by it's for listeners all across

13:12

the country. What do you think your

13:14

investigation reveals about the I T V

13:16

system in other parts of the country?

13:19

Well, so first of all, it's

13:22

a national problem. I found at

13:24

least seventeen states had been sued

13:26

ever in nightly times. I called

13:28

all fifty states to ask how

13:30

long their defendants or waited for

13:32

restoration and about forty of them

13:34

responded to me they they were

13:36

is bout a half a dozen

13:38

states with. Substantially. Longer.

13:41

Wait, Times than we have in North

13:43

Carolina. And. Pretty.

13:46

Most of them, most of them the

13:48

wait time. Was. More than

13:50

Thirty days. You know, when

13:52

we started this, there was no data in

13:54

North Carolina. On how long people

13:57

actually waited. The state had. Collected.

14:00

But they hadn't analyze it. That

14:02

went on for months and so

14:04

we learn about collecting the way

14:06

Time data ourselves and because of

14:09

health information. Is typically protected

14:11

by law. We had to find a way

14:13

of doing it with things that were in

14:15

the public record and what we found is

14:17

that we had to go to each of

14:20

the county. Courthouses, And.

14:22

Ask for their lists. Of

14:24

pending cases. Of I T

14:26

P descendants of incapable defendant. Then

14:28

we took those lists and went

14:31

to each county jail and said.

14:33

When. Was this defendant incarcerated and

14:36

when where they finally transported to

14:38

the state psychiatric. Hospital for

14:40

a bat. Okay, well

14:42

we measured. Was. The

14:44

full time that people

14:47

are incarcerated. right? That's

14:49

not what any state measures as far

14:51

as I can tell rate with a

14:53

measure. Is just the time that

14:56

someone's on a wait list for a

14:58

bed. But we couldn't wait months just

15:00

for that psychiatric evaluation. My: as soon

15:02

as they tell you are wait time

15:04

is thirty days. It. May

15:07

be substantially longer and. Why?

15:09

That's so important is if

15:11

people are deteriorating behind bars.

15:14

Nobody. Really knows how long they've been

15:16

there. So we sell Fit. What?

15:18

We did. I. Believe or

15:20

the only ones in the country to

15:22

do this. What we did contributes. To.

15:25

The whole understanding of this. Process.

15:28

Yeah and and as high as it

15:30

really profound question to ask when you're

15:32

looking at the fine print and it

15:34

says the wait time for thirty days

15:36

then ask. But actually and sat for

15:38

case right? and I think that's feature

15:41

film really does a great job of

15:43

doing. Both of you were so hard

15:45

to help us understand the problem. What

15:47

do you wish you could have included

15:49

that you couldn't get access to sell

15:51

or the he just wish he had

15:53

found a place of the phone. So.

15:58

In the radio series. I

16:00

have a guy. It's. Been almost

16:02

six years. He hasn't had a trial yet.

16:05

And he he was restored once.

16:08

And then came back and then

16:10

waited. the. Got without very much worse.

16:13

When he got worse and this is

16:15

i think fairly typical he start to

16:18

act out showing theses. And doing things

16:20

like that. So then the jails isolate

16:22

people like that because they can't control

16:24

them. He was

16:27

an isolation for a long time

16:29

as far as I can tell,

16:31

and the American College of Correctional

16:33

Physicians warns that prolonged isolation. Of

16:35

people, a serious mental illness can make

16:37

them worse. I.

16:39

Want to know? How.

16:42

Many of these people. are being

16:44

isolated. His can you

16:46

imagine? Your. In however,

16:48

big sales, pretty small cell.

16:51

You're. Hearing these voices Nonstop.

16:54

And. You're alone. twenty three, twenty four hours

16:56

a day. Either. Any people

16:58

out there that are talking about

17:00

what would be a system in

17:02

which I'm people who experience and

17:05

sell illness you are being charged

17:07

for the crime, who have to

17:09

be on trial, How discover a

17:11

little bit better event. Yeah.

17:13

So up to the radio series I

17:15

looked into this and there's you know,

17:19

Increasingly people are thinking. Look.

17:22

If you're charged with a low level

17:24

misdemeanor, Why? Are we even.

17:26

Charging you? Why isn't the police officer

17:29

just taking you to a crisis clinic

17:31

and getting you into treatment. People.

17:33

Are now talking about that deflection from

17:35

the criminal justice system. These are now

17:38

being discussed as some alternatives, right? Right

17:40

and then of Aura. When you're ending

17:42

the farm, I'm curious. What were you

17:45

hoping people would take away? What was

17:47

your. Hope. Yeah.

17:50

Well we talked a lot

17:52

about adds an despite Medicaid

17:54

expand san and you know

17:56

I pods it was allocated

17:58

for those programs. Riders Pilot

18:01

Programs. At the end

18:03

of the day like you know

18:05

people, are you waiting for a

18:07

long time? a villain finally got

18:09

a hospital bad. By. Dow was

18:11

not. Until. After five hundred,

18:14

thirty one days. To. Me

18:16

like the fact that he might have.

18:18

Gotten. Worse. As

18:20

he waited in jail. I think

18:22

this is problematic. Ah so we definitely did

18:25

on wants to be like oh this is

18:27

that your life as a happy ending Like

18:29

we pass the budget. We we

18:31

have those programs. I feel like those

18:33

are closet Chance know. You. Know

18:36

to address the problem but we must

18:38

keep watching right? V.

18:40

Re Re and you were and small

18:43

either. This is really the beginning of

18:45

an inquiry. Right is is this is

18:47

the ground. The ground level is finding

18:49

the data, asking the questions and then

18:51

the story starts to come out. So

18:53

I appreciate both of you. Thank you

18:55

for being on the dispatch. Thank you

18:57

for your great work They do for

18:59

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