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To another Stop Burning Stuff podcast

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with me Quincy Wilson and today

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I'm going to be talking to.to

0:55

you and Turk of Plug Live

0:58

Television who is an electric chemist

1:00

and battery engineer And you and.

1:03

Like. Me has been driving a

1:05

even since two thousand and nine

1:07

so where are you know that

1:09

doubt he banned if of early

1:11

adopters who went through that whole

1:14

journey of these cars that that

1:16

you know we're we're we're doing

1:18

any fifty miles to and charge

1:20

and stuff like that and and

1:22

and you and did a phd

1:24

on next generation lithium chemistries at

1:26

some time druze an Oxford so

1:28

everything you ever wanted to know

1:31

about he the batteries. He is

1:33

your man. So let's let's begin

1:35

you and with that that that

1:37

That first very obvious myth that

1:39

we hear so much is that

1:41

he the batteries don't last that

1:44

you need to replace them every

1:46

sort of for five years and

1:48

it cost the price of the

1:50

car. So tell me about the

1:52

longevity we're seeing from these first

1:55

Jen batteries I Clinton. So I'm

1:57

kind of living proof of this

1:59

because. I have a Tesla

2:01

sitting on the driveway. The Dicks from

2:03

Twenty Fifteen is clocked up a hundred

2:06

and thirty thousand miles and I'm have

2:08

only known it. From. About

2:10

ninety thousand miles old but I've

2:12

not seen it. Did read his range.

2:15

any sense that I reckon it has

2:17

lost at most ten percent of

2:19

it's a reasonable range versus when you

2:21

still does, It is easy to hundred

2:24

plus miles per charge. Is

2:26

go into that guys and. Based

2:28

on a battery pack from Twenty Fifteen

2:30

which is based on a cell chemistry

2:32

from the early twenties. hands. If we

2:35

have a look at the chemistries that

2:37

are coming, others lives today or should

2:39

I say the Kennedys are coming off

2:42

with production lines are going into electric

2:44

vehicles today. the everything Further improvements in

2:46

the race to take addition. using that

2:48

even further and that combines with greater

2:51

understanding of how to manage about it

2:53

comes to keep it at his optimum

2:55

temperature, not just tooling. it's to which.

2:58

Away sheets before it can cause any

3:00

kind of damage. For also a heating

3:02

it's to optimum temperature not just if

3:04

the weather is particularly cold outside but

3:06

as it's about to approach about the

3:08

charger so that they can take on

3:10

maximum power possible. So actually we've we've

3:12

learned quite a lot about how the

3:14

not just chilling that actually him to

3:16

get rid of hitting a strategically at

3:18

the right choice at all of this

3:20

adds up to very conservatively. We

3:23

estimate the B B C three hundred

3:25

thousand plus miles lifespan. I was modern

3:27

electric vehicle batteries and in fact if

3:30

we want an accelerated aging tests reasonable

3:32

looted see Ember Electric Intercity bosses the

3:34

her running. Between. Dundee and

3:37

Edinburgh and Glasgow and back on

3:39

one charge run track of these

3:41

it undies. The oldest of those

3:43

buses have clocked up over six

3:45

hundred and fifty thousand kilometers on

3:47

battery power alone, and out of

3:49

the their batteries are of the

3:52

state itself as I'm in other

3:54

words, the capacity as today there

3:56

says when they produce is somewhere

3:58

in the high eighties. Though he

4:00

sees batteries are not degrading anywhere near

4:02

as quickly as they they are the

4:04

naysayers would have he and it is

4:06

older into the fact that the bush

4:08

chemistries we have an electric vehicles are

4:11

a different breed, not just in terms

4:13

of the exact chemistry, the, the quality

4:15

of production and the quality of the

4:17

way that are managed versus batteries that

4:19

we haven't. Smart phones, laptops,

4:21

the zebra literally for general and some of

4:23

the more kind of purely bill he bikes

4:25

and hover boards stuff the causing issues and

4:28

such as a totally totally different James yes

4:30

this lithium ions but there's a lot to

4:32

read into on the exact title. Suggests.

4:35

To be cleared. And as an electric

4:37

chemist who's who's done a Phd on

4:39

on Betty degradation, you're saying that that

4:41

that leads to the life expectancy of

4:43

of a modern a lithium ion battery

4:45

in an electric car is up to

4:47

three hundred thousand miles. Or I mean

4:50

that's being completely conservative. I wouldn't be

4:52

surprised in the slightest if they go

4:54

over that. I mean if you look,

4:56

for example, at Ten a Tesla, give

4:58

claims for a while that they have

5:00

a one million mile battery And fact

5:02

some of the latest chemistry says if

5:04

Im working. On was just an Uzi.

5:06

our research to the chest and is more

5:08

than just that. The One Nine this very

5:11

subtly the left and I can assume that

5:13

groups over and Dell has a university in

5:15

Canada. They've worked with Tesla for many years

5:17

now and they claimed that developed a four

5:20

million mile battery Know admittedly that the Cycles

5:22

thirty two savagely and it was her. A

5:24

little sale at large scale wasn't a battery

5:27

pack. Commercial scale

5:29

but the underlying alleged chemistry is that

5:31

she was from see signs of be

5:33

able to skills will get. Even more

5:35

lifespan and we're looking at basically the

5:37

that she got outlasting the car these

5:40

days with modern electric vehicles rolling off

5:42

with production lines. If you don't manage

5:44

to get the a city to our

5:46

last the sassy you are either. I'm

5:49

living in a very dry climate that doesn't

5:51

get any salt hundred on the roads and

5:53

degrade the chassis not way or you have

5:55

done something spectacularly wrong in the way that

5:58

you've designed to a city bus with. So

6:00

much experience Know and by we I mean

6:02

that the automotive industry or how to design

6:04

a battery properly. That the odds

6:06

of that kind of early degradation of

6:09

are are quite slim pointed. A sounders

6:11

think that the outlier, the exception to

6:13

this rule is the very first Nissan

6:16

Leaf. He also fitted something clever with

6:18

the battery chemistry it didn't have cool

6:20

and at an hour or if it's

6:22

as if is hardly any and wishes

6:25

is good from an ethical perspective. But.

6:28

Unfortunately that chemistry wasn't particularly temperature solar

6:30

it and of his new thermal energy

6:32

systems within actively to itself with air

6:35

or water or be able to present

6:37

school was it even the even the

6:39

early mitzvah she's in Persia Iron Deficiency

6:42

Zeroes had a cooling but those the

6:44

early leaves didn't did they know know

6:46

and that this was the beach don't

6:49

fall of innocently sinister least as borderline

6:51

mechanically indestructible and that's why when I

6:53

got my Tesla and which dates from

6:55

the days when test for the still.

6:58

Trying to learn how to make a talking

7:00

are very good at making batteries motors but

7:02

not so much and they can the rest

7:04

of the car so you know in terms

7:06

of reliability still better than any Paschal car

7:08

have had but it's a silly things go

7:10

wrong with only cases and my point is

7:12

that to I kept my least partly because

7:15

I knew it was just the indestructible and

7:17

dependable and reliable. And it has

7:19

been a not been all over the

7:21

place that the cecile able to trust

7:23

them to journeys as he really wanted

7:25

to just it's charging more often because

7:27

as an older ones for the problem

7:29

with a recess that the the battery

7:31

pack doesn't have that several management and

7:33

is never as several management despite buyers

7:35

so Cns and pleading with some please

7:37

for the sake of five hundred quid

7:39

pro vehicle to in a proper liquid

7:41

refrigerant systems and that means of these

7:43

batteries a less so much longer but

7:45

yet the original leaf that have vegetation

7:47

issues enough was. Exposed on top gear

7:49

and I think of his party beginners was

7:52

just trying to get a very heavily degraded

7:54

Mark One. This on least to do our

7:56

balls and grand prix or something like this

7:59

Massacre The Charger. The way through because

8:01

the race without delay thirty miles per

8:03

charge. That was probably the worst example

8:05

to they could find of the worst

8:08

example with electric vehicle for for a

8:10

shooting at. Them. Said. Let

8:12

let let let's just understand why this

8:14

mess about back to the glaciers so

8:17

embedded it's still there. You still see

8:19

people I had taken Mpm of on

8:21

twitter. he was saying that they any

8:23

last five years me that keep replacing

8:25

and I do on my constituents that

8:27

to be poor and cold I'm. Why

8:30

don't more people know about this? Is

8:32

it. Is it. Have we failed in

8:35

our message jenks as the industry failed?

8:37

Because if you're seven frantic about this,

8:39

I'm an An. and three hundred thousand

8:42

miles is is longer than most combustion

8:44

engines will last, and certainly they wouldn't

8:46

have that that ninety nine fact that

8:48

efficiency and why are we we we

8:51

know knowing this small more broadly. Honestly,

8:54

I think quite a lot of the blame. Lies.

8:57

With said mainstream journalism from lasting

8:59

because there's just not enough much

9:01

effort to educate themselves on reality

9:03

as a matter arcs to as

9:05

they do not. a Reality of

9:07

the Masters Educate the public on

9:09

that because it offers a kind

9:11

of censor certain agenda support and.

9:13

What? With with seats just as continuous and

9:16

have peddling of of the same old

9:18

mr such as a come up again

9:20

and again and again but also and

9:22

types of the members of the public

9:24

have if you've never had an electric

9:26

vehicle before but of course you how

9:28

to more powerful you've had a laptop,

9:30

the hada, a hover boards or something

9:32

like this seems seen how quickly of

9:34

lithium ion battery and that degrees and

9:36

this is badly managed. a sin. To

9:39

she's the voltage is higher than an electric

9:41

vehicle which on an individual cell that will

9:43

push me says integrates faster It doesn't keep

9:45

them. To I which as we

9:47

just disgusts causes issues with degradation the

9:50

center of the hardware and you know

9:52

and also you'll send to find some

9:54

of that. The current draw for example

9:57

can be a dick more extreme, particularly

9:59

on some. The recent examples like

10:01

Faiths and You they'll to push Daddy

10:03

I see rates in other words with

10:05

power be drawn from it versus the

10:08

energy the that that sell to takes

10:10

so I'm on electric vehicle. It's a

10:12

very very casual existence for a Lithium

10:15

myself but in some other applications to

10:17

be quite extreme under constant exposure to

10:19

high temperatures, idle for just saw and

10:21

then people conflate an inner ear your

10:24

consider electronics batteries which also largest through

10:26

the made in terms of the electric

10:28

industry and production lines. And so on

10:30

and comparison to let you be commercially the

10:32

conflict news with electric vehicle batteries in the

10:35

soon Well this phone behaves in this manner

10:37

so this will ensure equal the also have

10:39

lithium ion batteries will be in this manner

10:41

to not true. Too I

10:43

think that more or secondly and

10:45

mainstream journalists need to the. Actually

10:48

in of delving into this properly and

10:50

having a look at the likes of

10:52

the of the Test for High Mileage

10:54

club for him and his other reason

10:56

have done very high mileage assuming a

10:58

perfect example, on with it or are

11:00

on original then was a way to

11:02

twenty two kilowatt hours a week. On

11:05

which has been doing the rounds in

11:07

Turkey as a taxi so am fairly

11:09

hot climate and ended the several management

11:11

or nice just be directing the air

11:13

conditioning over the battery packs with blows

11:16

on it. To particular don't have

11:18

nowhere near as good liquid they several management

11:20

system again the thing with into kinda six

11:22

figures those of kilometer it you will be

11:24

in this case rather than mileage and the

11:26

the should use the still say that the

11:29

high her and she was a few years

11:31

ago this reported know for the point is

11:33

that even the older more kind of rudimentary

11:35

electric vehicles years always your Bmw Ice visa

11:37

cetera are still go into distance and we

11:40

need to be something that from rooftops because.

11:42

She's older movies could do that. then

11:45

the new stuff is coming out. This

11:47

could be even more capable of last

11:49

even longer for two reasons. One against

11:51

is better and I also the back

11:53

in I suspect the also to the

11:55

basic that is bigger of the amount

11:57

of power required to do. Kiwi

12:00

he retiring uses like for example twenty Killer

12:02

was roughly to sustain three can't see sixty

12:04

miles an hour on a road that still

12:07

going to be the same but should pass.

12:09

he is bigger with me to doesn't need

12:11

to work hard to do that was me

12:13

just degrading less so it's just get as

12:15

much as getting better all the time. Let's

12:18

talk about and repair ability

12:20

will we? Can.

12:22

Come to stage where we can

12:24

take these packs to pieces and

12:26

change change models. Is

12:29

already happening so there are certain

12:31

source party providers who are either

12:33

did elephants and repair processes and

12:35

this is quite common for him

12:37

for some members of for example have

12:39

rather hybrid and electric vehicle repaid

12:41

alliance of which clearly he's probably that

12:43

the jewel in the trying to

12:45

the most well known even have mobile

12:48

mechanics is you have visited my

12:50

house on many occasions so m yes

12:52

there are there are some companies

12:54

who could potentially drop the battery to

12:56

do proper kind of diagnostic soreness

12:58

replace. A faulty module because most

13:00

way to be called actually banks are made

13:03

up have little building block and all kind

13:05

of fit together to don't need to. Sauces

13:07

are bad for you can just replace part

13:09

of the or alternatively you can swap him.

13:12

He. Replaced with Ashley back entirely if

13:14

the sales have degraded to the point.

13:17

Six. Universally degraded as not usually one or

13:19

two of have gone before addresses and if

13:21

the degraded to the point that yeah okay

13:23

this is not and eat it is no

13:25

use for me anymore not getting be raised

13:28

the I need then your options are either

13:30

sell it to someone who needs a shorter

13:32

raised as quick a lot of very all

13:34

the these that ended up and retirement in

13:36

Orkney and where there's very small islands very

13:38

small to beauty salon and they believe they're

13:40

very happily and it's also nice to claim

13:42

that is well so what some very well

13:44

for those original this at least with a

13:47

stylus point. Eight, however, The the

13:49

other option you've got his to upgrade the

13:51

battery and again there are companies who not

13:53

only the take for example, Had. An

13:55

original Nissan Leaf within. Twenty four? What Was

13:57

Twenty Four? Killer? Whatever. Once upon a time,

14:00

Actually that heavily degraded and swapped

14:02

out. For say the foresee

14:04

kilowatt hour battery from the new least

14:06

that was also companies to I can't

14:08

disclose the moment but there are are

14:11

very subtle the people working on aftermarket

14:13

grades which would not only get a

14:15

boost the capacity that is why I

14:17

just mentioned of the but also hopefully

14:20

introduced proper thermal management where does require

14:22

and that means that these otherwise mechanically

14:24

perfectly intact indestructible machines because the saw

14:26

the sought to go wrong with somebody

14:29

really isn't a lot of cases be

14:31

or exactly yes to that no interest.

14:33

In enough so that they city go

14:35

and and this will allow these electric

14:37

vehicles to keep going and I can

14:40

tell you know that as the Uk

14:42

market decides owner would rather have the

14:44

latest shiny think there are plenty of

14:46

other right hand drive markets to these

14:48

vehicles will be supported to with those

14:51

and third party. That report updates

14:53

and a fantasy and quite a lot

14:55

of this happening our or the beginnings

14:57

of this happening in Australia, New Zealand

14:59

where I'm in Australia Finally got on

15:01

board with Renewables A D V. So

15:03

this is is making up for lost

15:05

time to aspect of two weeks. New

15:08

Zealand is an underserved market where they're

15:10

heavily rely on Japanese imports. Japan has

15:12

not been as take on electric vehicles

15:15

apparently because the so little off street

15:17

parking and so much of the communal

15:19

car parks are actually these that a

15:21

futuristic kind of robotic elevators you drive

15:23

the car on analytics up again parks

15:25

it somewhere so the up the acts

15:28

of plugging the of equal in what

15:30

is in one of those robots i

15:32

start box is actually quite difficult. Switches

15:34

fly. Hybrids have been more popular in

15:36

Japan an electric vehicles. That there is

15:39

a trickle of them available. but in terms

15:41

of getting up to scratch and importing those

15:43

you feel into struggling they could easily see

15:45

facts and go okay. What Britain fallen out

15:47

of favor with was it was a the

15:50

Old Hat by their Sanders. Okay with developed

15:52

an aftermarket battery packs or Been or someone

15:54

else who has will just import the law

15:56

figure altogether and you're ready to go hand.

15:59

In terms of. Importing second and

16:01

electric vehicles from the Uk? That

16:03

something is already happening in Tasmania.

16:05

As. Well. So. I get that

16:07

see the eagles will keep going and

16:10

they will have very robust revival happy

16:12

life elsewhere if we decide which other

16:14

Hathaway to shiny think but as actually

16:16

surprisingly also market for doing this year

16:18

to with taxi drivers the quite like

16:20

that all these apart from that actually

16:22

starting to degrade we that so the

16:24

i actually feel something on the door

16:27

These companies have seen. Can. We

16:29

help especially that doctor. he can have the if

16:31

you could swap Yes we can buy shiny new

16:33

vehicle to be like this one. We trust that

16:35

we know it works. For. This is

16:37

a moment is now in in in

16:39

the history of of of the car.

16:41

Where are we looking at something that's

16:44

that's been a much much longer life

16:46

expectancy than a combustion cars and is

16:48

Hugh Grant rightly say the receive you

16:50

moving parts said there are so few

16:52

suit few few component failures in it.

16:55

You can can improve upgrade the battery

16:57

so it can do five hundred thousand

16:59

seven hundred thousand a million miles. Then

17:01

it is. It's a car citizens virtually

17:03

will last forever. Oh

17:06

yeah, no doubt any. Was this a

17:08

very strong sense that sounds his would

17:10

have to replace the Shashi before you

17:12

have to replace the Not you The

17:14

Victory or than the motor and many

17:16

of these vehicles. And in fact that's

17:19

why that is actually until very recently

17:21

until the most recent kind of glut

17:23

of secondhand east became available because all

17:25

of the Candy Company car leases ended

17:27

at the same time after for years

17:29

of the Tesla Model Three being on

17:32

the market, etc and. As

17:34

recently as Twenty Twenty Two and someone

17:36

God that's awful happy and rats their

17:38

electric car around to treat it as

17:41

a fierce bidding war over the past

17:43

and the motor you find that would

17:45

inevitably end up going to people who

17:48

retrofit classic cars to electric propulsion. so

17:50

even if he's eagles have clocked up

17:52

considerable knowledge. People. Know people

17:55

in the no no for those batteries

17:57

are in good condition that most recently

17:59

tradition. That can reap our a

18:01

cherished classic vehicle or a a nice

18:03

vehicle added you see the equal of

18:06

some description. Says that you

18:08

ever beloved see you in Is Is

18:10

is important on a number of levels

18:12

but not least the insurance as well

18:15

which is now being a big issue

18:17

for these and insurance companies else because

18:19

they don't understand the technology or just

18:21

even with a small dent on a

18:24

on a on a battery pack casing

18:26

writing the whole car off said if

18:28

we can as establish this this this

18:31

aftermarket hopefully with with with with corporation

18:33

from their yams we can lower insurance

18:35

premiums by making those batteries. Repairable

18:37

after accidents. How. Easily

18:40

yeah. And as not just the case

18:42

of missing and repairable is making insurance

18:44

companies aware that they are already repairable

18:46

and and created. I think this is

18:48

quite a lot of onus on insurance

18:50

companies and the repair workshops for they

18:52

work with whether it's and house or

18:54

third party to get the skills required

18:56

to do that. It's as lazy off

18:58

Any once it's is to sit back

19:00

and say well we don't know what

19:02

we're doing with this technology super. Just

19:04

gonna check out the premium know don't

19:06

deserve such a silly you know as

19:09

as you. Want to stay in business if you

19:11

want to be relevant? Feel this

19:13

is your. This is actually your

19:15

business. It is your responsibility. To.

19:17

Get that training to get that knowledge and there are

19:19

people out there who can help. And for what it's

19:22

worth, There. Are One or food

19:24

insurance companies who are starting to

19:26

look seriously into these requirements? They

19:28

are reaching out to people in

19:30

the know and an attempt to

19:33

to get this understanding. Yes, I

19:35

Voltage Electronics. and yes, it's High

19:37

Voltage Electrical says well, as you

19:39

say, it's an American disaster. Concerns

19:41

about batteries in if you've been.

19:44

A massive massive crush at the battery. Self

19:46

esteem physically damaged which to be honest with

19:48

me to be a horrific cross because it's

19:51

the best presented part of the secret passage

19:53

of for enough anyway. yeah, completely know exactly

19:55

spot To be honest, the so many as

19:57

you say you know at the be a.

20:00

Motion and some insurance companies or

20:02

right coffee sequels had it means

20:04

to these reach professors I mentioned

20:06

earlier and these can assisted life.

20:11

Or just laughing their way to the back

20:13

to select. Excellent thought The called only a

20:15

few thousand miles We know that she's in

20:17

great condition and we know that that kind

20:20

of fastest doesn't damage of ushered. So yeah

20:22

we will bite out of here for. Super.

20:25

Cheap and then you will will secure

20:27

into this energy story system. but is

20:29

that Such was the center francis bidding

20:31

war over. You. T V Batteries

20:33

until we started see this this

20:35

last reply on the secondhand market

20:37

that as recently as Twenty Twenty

20:39

two according to the fantastic analysts

20:41

at Circular Energy Storage Research at

20:43

the Hands Out now and his

20:45

friend of everything electrically charged to

20:47

stop burning us and so I

20:49

just at least twenty twenty to

20:51

use electric vehicle batteries from crash

20:53

all these vehicles, etc. Set

20:56

up to twice what they cost to the

20:58

manufacturer when they were new. Yeah I

21:00

mean I've seen the money Betty you know

21:02

ten thousand pounds for a modern three

21:04

battery pack and and and six thousand fans

21:07

for even a least wait for could

21:09

what packs a Us these did the off

21:11

the market is is ready books Let's

21:13

let's move on to Fires is another very

21:15

very very an embedded mates that you

21:17

know you you're more likely to catch foreign

21:20

a D V than a combustion car.

21:22

Tell us how how nonsensical that is You.

21:24

And. Thirty Am

21:26

if we have a look at

21:28

the statistics and an electric vehicle

21:30

is between twenty and sixty times

21:32

less likely to catch fire on

21:34

an internal combustion engine vehicle. And

21:36

that's based on statistics from Sweden

21:38

and from the Us and other

21:40

countries will tell you pretty much

21:42

the same that we somewhere within

21:44

that at a ballpark and on

21:46

also within some of those statistics

21:48

there are some important to situation.

21:50

So for example, Sweden saw the

21:52

same number of electric vehicle fires.

21:54

Here on year I think this was twenty twenty

21:57

one to twenty twenty two is it wasn't if

21:59

is within. The years of the enemy

22:01

the point is same numbers as a fecal

22:03

fires a letter people forest but. With.

22:06

An increased number of electric vehicles on

22:08

the road. So actually the odds of

22:10

your electric vehicle catching fire were decreasing.

22:12

as the vehicle park, the vehicle fleet

22:14

was increasing. And the other

22:16

consideration as I've already has a dig

22:19

at He Bikes and Hover Boards has

22:21

one and the great and principal for

22:23

there are too many, the are badly

22:25

designed and badly manufactured and artist your

22:27

life urges as well. Oh god yeah

22:29

yeah to the charger is an issue

22:31

with them as well. If you buy

22:33

cheap you potentially by settle with He

22:35

Bikes Hover Boards. You need to make

22:37

sure that they are properly made a

22:39

bronze between reliable products because. Quite.

22:42

Often those to say statistics get

22:44

shocked and with electric vehicle and

22:46

know that as a totally totally

22:48

different type of quality of manufacturing

22:51

isn't military quality for electric cars

22:53

and houses etc and also for

22:55

your your teeth nasty he thought

22:58

it somewhere online. For

23:00

the cover for to the vice so it's

23:02

important not to confuse those two. And as

23:04

the other thing about electric vehicle fires and

23:06

fan. And. I remember a

23:08

recent parties with Easy Physicists have

23:11

is a fantastic to the statistic

23:13

in there something like forty

23:15

percent of electric vehicle Firestone actually

23:18

involve the battery and in one

23:20

scenario that as an entire building

23:22

fun go around the electric

23:24

car and they didn't catch fire.

23:27

Science know we're starting to look

23:29

at batteries the aren't even

23:31

flammable. So yes we've been using

23:34

Lithium Nicole Cobalt Manganese Oxide. Far

23:36

as you. Most. Of the most

23:38

of the the twenty times we prefer eating

23:41

at the day for long range electric vehicles

23:43

for n and see if you managed properly

23:45

is perfectly fine for if you do something

23:47

really stupid like drill straight through it but

23:50

it's to charge. Yes, it's going it very

23:52

quickly. Red hot gas the catches fire. Never

23:55

know. Starting to see Lithium are phosphates

23:57

starting to be offered? In fact the

23:59

other. Knowing electric vehicles of the

24:01

Uk as L A P option so

24:03

that last year with the Tesla Model

24:06

White and the entry for additionally be

24:08

why these letter the Eagles Tesla Model

24:10

Three, Maxus Electric Van Susteren and electric

24:12

buses like Embers they use L S

24:14

P. A voice that importantly

24:16

explain the L. If he doesn't have

24:19

Cobalt, it doesn't It's less. I'm lucky

24:21

to have thermal runaway correct. Correct. So

24:23

not only is it more ethical causes

24:25

new Cobalt was no Nickel is basically

24:28

Lithium plus rusted vet fertilizer if you

24:30

were at the raw materials, but also

24:32

yes, you could drill straight through it

24:34

and it's fully charged and some versions

24:36

water and hop. Gosh, but we won't

24:39

catch fire. The reason seeing the oxygen

24:41

within the. Old. Feed Us You're

24:43

looking on phosphate. It's. Not

24:46

worth how convenient for the structure than

24:48

others and so there's not much oxygen

24:50

been released as means of is less

24:52

inclined to catch fire and I've seen

24:54

some a music videos of people shooting

24:57

at them whistling source and also i

24:59

try to get caught fire they're just

25:01

not interested at all and then. He

25:04

also kind of compare that to the

25:06

latest stay at the are pushes the

25:08

B Y de Blade cel I wish

25:10

be by the eyes of the electorate

25:12

Beatles each by the Uk today he

25:14

deal street through the school charge to

25:16

the surface temperature doesn't even reached sixty

25:18

degree see no gas new fire The

25:20

video that they did the compared and

25:22

in and see Jill test to a

25:24

B Y de Blade l a federal

25:26

test. About thirty nine seconds

25:28

into the video, If I remember correctly,

25:30

you will hear the sound of an

25:32

anti climax of a little drill going

25:34

through a cell phone. or actually. Getting

25:37

anywhere where that uses his new fire, this new

25:39

guy thing or anything as she stuffed animal squeaking

25:41

noise as it goes to the cell and that's

25:44

it. So. He could properly total

25:46

one of those cars with the

25:48

and far perspective perfectly safe. Your

25:51

battery chemistry continues to evolve. We're

25:53

starting to see Saudi line becoming

25:55

available intellectually because China that again

25:57

is not interested in catching fire.

26:00

And another chemistries on the horizon

26:02

that again either are non flammable

26:04

obviously reduce the odds of Fum

26:06

ability including with some new manufacturing

26:08

techniques for an M C which

26:11

make it became a bit flaky.

26:13

B Y deeply. Pushes.

26:15

His quickly scramble go into the details

26:17

of that the fleet is the ability

26:19

is facing gonna be. Something

26:22

of a of a non issue as we

26:24

move towards the board attack chemistry Only thing

26:26

they pay for far services to know how

26:28

to tackle energy People fire once in a

26:31

blue moon when it happens and those are

26:33

these are be alexander becoming quite promising the

26:35

easy far say or the the true next

26:38

next on this one of the other if

26:40

it's an interesting. Interesting

26:42

and as you progress recently to was.

26:45

Actually putting out and N N C

26:47

electric vehicle fire cracker and using less

26:49

water than you require for casual carfax.

26:52

Enemy. Didn't get it. We go back

26:54

to Two Thousand Nine and the first

26:56

cause electric cars appeared on the market

26:58

for consumers. This is not a long

27:00

time in the in the annals of

27:02

the auto industry and we've we've made

27:05

huge huge progress that seven when and

27:07

how far is the solid state battery

27:09

away. So there's always think Basher

27:11

there's there's quite a few companies working

27:13

on those and actually there's a few

27:15

that has kind of sneakily made their

27:17

way into production. So the so called

27:20

Sandy solid state of the like the

27:22

he does well she's kind of feel

27:24

compromise and away but still as some

27:26

useful feature. So the Mercedes Electric Bendy

27:28

bus which is available and continental Europe

27:30

there is an optional long range battery

27:33

for she said he saw the state

27:35

but it takes longer to charge. Not

27:37

discuss is higher capacity but the see

27:39

rates the maximum power to take on

27:41

this is capacity is lower. Than.

27:44

To conventional lithium ions are

27:46

some I just filled with

27:48

the a solid state battery

27:50

that know electrolyte. It gives

27:53

longer range, know thermal runaway.

27:56

Just go through the did the area

27:58

was on the same answer. We have

28:00

a quick look at a conventional lithium

28:02

ion battery so that could go up

28:04

a benchmark. Compare with we've got a

28:06

your nose which is your negative electrode

28:08

which has a means of sorting lithium.

28:11

Normally. Graphite so carded and then you

28:13

got your positive electrode? was you sure

28:15

you're cathode and that's normally some sort

28:17

of the few metal oxide. So.

28:19

Entered Fiorella feet and that the issue

28:22

with graphite is that some is quite

28:24

both any six carbon offsets to store

28:26

one lithium. The reason he can't use

28:28

pure lithium is because when you pair

28:30

all of that with a liquid electrolytes

28:32

innocent and a separate are just kind

28:34

of polymer. separate. Know. If

28:37

you minds are not inclined to plead

28:39

evenly back onto the auto So they

28:41

create this kind of mountain range which

28:43

ends up treating look branch like drugs

28:45

contained race of pure lithium muscle which

28:47

eventually puncture that little fuzzy polymer separate

28:49

or touch the other electronics. the the

28:52

cost of electrodes and that reason internal

28:54

short circuit been to sell very quickly

28:56

discharges is even if you disconnect the

28:58

call or from where is our it

29:00

as it just keeps up. And

29:02

to fetch gases and catch fire,

29:04

Sasha, or to touch her standing

29:06

against. It's so if you replace the

29:09

liquid electrolyte and the polymer separate or

29:11

with a solid electrolyte, you vastly reduced

29:13

the also that they drive growth and

29:16

it means that you to remove the

29:18

grossly. And. Some of these configurations anyway

29:20

and you can use pure lithium means that

29:22

all the negative electrode all of the and

29:25

is taking place in not really should you

29:27

know the it was actually storing energy rather

29:29

than sort of the stuff the stores energy.

29:31

Still, You vastly improved the energy

29:33

density the American friends and energy

29:35

the to squeeze in to a

29:37

particular volume which is very important

29:40

for alleged towards the limited space

29:42

the streets. So yeah that's the

29:44

advantage of a solid state. And

29:46

as you rightly points out and.

29:48

The. Also that catching fire or greatly

29:50

reduced because you remove the flammable liquid

29:52

and you've replaced it with the soul

29:54

is which in some verses is a

29:57

ceramic so. You know not,

29:59

particularly. In place. They are but you

30:01

know they are still a while away

30:03

from that can of dream. Ultimate saw

30:05

the state cel being reality. There are

30:07

lots of companies are working very hard

30:09

on this of the great progress. the

30:12

Navy blue solutions you gotta essential the

30:14

state one is available and Mercedes bosses

30:16

they are rumors to the trying to

30:18

the faster charging-and for electric cars and

30:20

has also the like records indicate which

30:22

is kind of synonymous with Solar Safe

30:24

Africa well as an affinity for the

30:27

progress of their soul the say self

30:29

a kick occasionally. The stock market

30:31

get statistics by the pace of that progress

30:33

and otherwise they don't think a fast enough.

30:35

But from Electric and Co perspective, trust me

30:37

you want to get this right. They are

30:39

meeting solid progress no pun intended to the

30:42

lose of other startups are there and thirty

30:44

treaties companies you are and. And. Working

30:46

on this you pretty much all that excel

30:48

manufacturers to pick household name slice a household.

30:50

if you already have you tried our household

30:53

names your they They've got their own soul

30:55

estate development programs or have investments in the

30:57

likes of Won't escape the start of the

30:59

are developing solid state. So it's yeah late

31:02

twenties when he's a record before we seasoning

31:04

he beat on the roads. But.

31:06

It's very important that we do this better

31:08

research and development because we've come so far

31:10

and we can go even further and here

31:13

in the Uk and I'm a real. Advocate.

31:16

Of this we got this fabulous

31:18

triumphalist affect. The accident happened we

31:20

with an excuse me for it

31:22

manufacturing route Uk be fair, the

31:24

institution you work to Wmc didn't

31:26

you always And the the Electric

31:28

car has spawned all this research

31:30

and development is billions and billions

31:32

of dollars and pounds going into

31:34

battery research and we've got as

31:36

a country to really promote that

31:38

haven't When we have those skills

31:40

and expertise if you know it's

31:42

just try and tell her listeners

31:44

why that's so important. For

31:46

the general unit automotive industry and and and

31:49

and the general kind of move of technology

31:51

that the that we have to invest in

31:53

the sovereign day what we do. and I

31:55

think it's fair to say that we're doing

31:58

quite a good job of it. Sing

32:00

it up! really early stage of research to develop

32:02

you mentioned W N G and I can tell

32:04

you know that that is just. Really

32:07

want a subsidy for any kind of electrical

32:09

mysticism oozing facility with all the toys you

32:11

could play with as they can even test

32:14

things to description. and yeah they they the

32:16

got everything to possibly want. Others is actually

32:18

that can rebel faction This be say out

32:20

crossroads a college or university. This to be

32:23

crystal clear as well and but this was

32:25

many academic research groups across the Uk coming

32:27

up with amazing U Cel chemistry coming up.

32:30

With a native new modeling for

32:32

bashing on his insistence on also

32:34

says that kind of an. Ecosystem

32:36

This is a lot of to work

32:38

on electric motor suits. This is valuable.

32:41

But. What we need to be doing

32:43

that? Investing in his those companies who

32:45

spin out from those research groups and

32:48

we set up and and try to

32:50

make this at a mass produced scale

32:52

on the scene. Seen anything what the

32:54

Uk is brilliant, the research but rubbish

32:57

at commercialization. We have the engineering talent

32:59

for the management and the lack of

33:01

willingness of investors has led to such

33:03

as seems to be either. If you

33:06

have an amazing new idea and you

33:08

won't see fifty two hundred thousand pounds

33:10

to prove it. A tiny little

33:12

lump scale. The most investors willing to give

33:15

you that money have you got were established

33:17

proven and you want few a few hundred

33:19

million or maybe a billion or to to

33:21

build a geek is actually the money is

33:24

there. From. Various investors and and

33:26

potentially from different support is that fit in

33:28

the middle for your the start off as

33:30

proof to think a tiny little less skill

33:32

and you don't want to build up to

33:34

the see where he confessed that a real

33:36

will still making are a fool elected equal

33:38

to the cheapest. This amazing

33:41

you chemistry that you've developed. For example, a

33:43

you're looking for say five to ten million.

33:46

There's. No investment there. Despite

33:48

the fact that we know that the

33:50

reversers who are willing to invest hundreds

33:52

of millions or billions, those investors Mike,

33:54

my plea to you is. If

33:57

you don't saw invest in the kind of funny

33:59

to ten. Liam and the start ups.

34:01

He will run out of the one

34:03

hundred million civilian companies to invest in.

34:06

Because. Every the people if

34:08

either of those companies. The. Women on

34:11

Design that the fighters and million stated I

34:13

would see not have the Caucasus with think

34:15

was at a meeting. Lithium sulfur battery super

34:17

lightweight. Never in the middle of building a

34:19

scale of facility in Brazil that this could

34:21

be building packs for electric buses, trucks and

34:24

when they run at a financial runway was

34:26

seen it happen without the power. Just recently

34:28

they were working on a cod I sell

34:30

a good idea that a couple of other

34:32

chemistries with we're working on to add that

34:35

has has fallen by the wayside. that was

34:37

the Uk first ever actually factory but some.

34:40

Good news is that no good to

34:42

be making sold estate sales from. He

34:44

just starts out as a week. we

34:46

could easily be that the so many

34:49

exciting use hey possibly sort of who

34:51

would see amazing work with the investment

34:53

and we absolutely need to be doing

34:55

that because otherwise we will to use

34:58

that same forces as a single issue

35:00

monopoly be benefiting directly and that's choose

35:02

for the automotive industry because if we

35:05

have to import everything from overseas men

35:07

that shoes job losses as huge economic

35:09

drain. Bearing in mind that we

35:11

once upon a time got a massive

35:13

automotive para and when it comes to

35:15

nice high performance vehicles, etc, we still

35:17

are. And Formula One formerly

35:20

for example as well but he had

35:22

a week is absolutely be doing mainstream

35:24

electric automotive and that's where the likes

35:26

of the Pasta I protested. Factories River

35:28

Somerset, the expansion of Nyssa Sunderland actually

35:31

get is actually the you the ill

35:33

fated the British For sites and hopefully

35:35

that will end up with their company

35:37

ownership to believe a little into a

35:39

gig. Factories: These are all important because

35:42

I can tell you know the even

35:44

if we end up oversupply the number

35:46

of cells with we end up producing.

35:49

The. If you have a look at

35:51

us and he you and their own

35:53

legislation about it's diversifying the supply chains

35:55

way for China. So true we could

35:57

sell everything we make an eye on

35:59

it. Absolutely fit into any kind

36:01

of investors apologies is listening you

36:03

and is absolutely making a very

36:05

very very good point that would

36:07

really do need to develop our

36:10

battery skills, make them at scale

36:12

and in a protect the auto

36:14

industry and create this this this

36:16

hugely important to public health and

36:18

energy transition and ultimately you know

36:20

that that the lessons we learned

36:22

from for batteries in the these

36:24

we can transport to static get

36:26

your stories which will eventually in

36:28

a power at not. Is towns

36:30

but hopefully all cities and and and

36:32

and balance the great and and and

36:35

store all that renewable energy that we're

36:37

We're we're doing such a good job

36:39

in creating very briefly before before we

36:42

run as time went on. a this

36:44

is a difficult subject so we must

36:46

be swapped. Not making it too complicated

36:49

tell you about is sort of decoupling

36:51

gas from electricity because we're not seeing

36:53

that that that that's cheap cost of

36:55

renewables reflected in our bills you York

36:58

where expert on this. Oh. Yeah,

37:01

yeah, well I mean I have avatar

37:03

down to like Supreme Cooper formerly of

37:05

National Grace when it comes to these

37:07

matters, but from from was doing in

37:10

terms of Muslim sects and patently obvious

37:12

that we could actually condone hour energy

37:14

bills without any subsidies whatsoever answers to

37:16

be an entirely a kind of reform

37:19

of the L existing market in a

37:21

way that benefits everybody's miser. Important, Well,

37:23

obviously you'll know that the price of

37:26

your own electricity bills at home. Any

37:28

one is listening and they are. You

37:30

to see times the price

37:33

they were before prison invaded

37:35

Ukraine. Etc and and

37:37

of like a post put covered as

37:39

well as the price of gas shot

37:41

through the roof and that has taken

37:43

the price of electricity with it and

37:45

that's affected industry to I know for

37:47

a fact that there are actually. Pretty

37:51

big. Battery. Related projects

37:53

that potentially could happen in the Uk

37:55

for are not because people signed it

37:57

if got the money to do this.

38:00

We are worried about the price of

38:02

energy and that's this. This is genuinely

38:04

hampering industry notice taking the next and

38:06

which is of course but our industry

38:08

there are less jobs without jobs that

38:11

you can't afford To the years it

38:13

kills the I energy bills point hence

38:15

the term at the moment the way

38:17

to the wholesale electricity market works is

38:19

that various different generally source whether that's

38:21

wind, solar, hydro, coal dust, nuclear recession,

38:24

And the old days a half Early

38:26

windows to meet the demand is a

38:29

great this forecast for that type of

38:31

this the Paris or that the company

38:33

or degenerates or I should say that

38:35

that's the highest price. The. Such

38:38

the wholesale price that everyone else gets

38:40

paid so wind always been pretty cheap.

38:42

This funnily enough is very cheap energy

38:44

source and he clears a wee bit

38:46

more expensive ssssss are all the way

38:48

up to four used to be one

38:50

of the cheapest for is no sky

38:52

high for the recent richest nation that

38:54

just set the price that everyone else

38:56

this case with as long as is

38:58

often the good. For you and

39:00

up with a horrific wholesale price. And

39:02

it's just holding everyone's around since the

39:04

what we could be doing is the

39:06

to be splitting out the cost of

39:08

gas from the cost of electricity so

39:10

gas to be paid, whatever. He.

39:13

Runs a price. It's being paid or needs

39:15

to be. Pages know. And

39:17

then the next highest price to set the

39:19

wholesale price for everyone else. for that next

39:21

highest price would be so much cheaper. To.

39:24

Say the great was seventy percent

39:26

not gas and thirty percent gas.

39:28

Then to the. Thirty. Percent

39:30

times and extortionate. Also price for gas.

39:33

Costs. Seventy percent times

39:35

a much less extortionate rate for everyone

39:37

else. He calls you wholesale electricity prices

39:39

and that would bring down your costs

39:41

considerably. Have done an episode of Plug

39:43

Like Television it's a nice we infographics

39:45

the explains it much more clearly but

39:48

genuinely he to be looking at substantial

39:50

tens and tens of percent reduction and

39:52

the cost of electricity crisis without saying

39:54

oh, we're just not going to pay.

39:56

Guess what are these? Noble could still

39:58

do that because it's. Our gas

40:00

fired power plants. It's the oil and gas

40:03

extract because how to cheat one jot for

40:05

they're taking advantage of the wholesale market being

40:07

crazy I forgot right now so they are

40:09

laughing that way to the bank with his

40:12

record profits activities and they are lessing in

40:14

your face. See. We basically

40:16

have found a way of at least

40:18

making sure that we get the last

40:20

last by being able to reduce our

40:22

electricity. Terrorists fulfill rewarding the likes of

40:24

Fair Wind Farms and so on, forbidding

40:26

low because inevitably to be another generator,

40:29

they'll pay a little bit higher than

40:31

the cheapest wind farms between formal so

40:33

get paid that race. But.remember what electricity

40:35

prices related And Twenty Twenty Twenty Twenty

40:37

One Silver. Just like that. For.

40:39

For then I should say you know which is still good

40:41

for it's development and so on. But. It's

40:43

good for you from the affordability of your bills. it

40:45

wouldn't quite bring it back to twenty twenty twenty one

40:47

of twenty one levels, but with. Not. A

40:50

huge chunk of it still and also

40:52

because gas the cost of gas would

40:54

remain the same. If you've got ghafar

40:56

Central heating is wants yes you know

40:58

that was still save say the same

41:01

price but it would encourage and households

41:03

you can switch towards heat pump the

41:05

cetera and it would also encourage developers

41:07

to scrap just far boilers for new

41:09

developments which is just ridiculous is some

41:12

companies still doing this and actually couldn't

41:14

dream heating systems or excuse a smart

41:16

idea and of insulation to actually do

41:18

the job. He

41:21

owned a we could we could talk for

41:23

hours on this across a range of subjects.

41:25

A lot have not even begun to take

41:27

all the questions as good was key say

41:29

Look, we ran time Thank you very very

41:32

much indeed. I'm. Just. To recap,

41:34

you know batteries are not degrading.

41:36

They can last up to three

41:38

hundred thousand miles. Batteries are a

41:40

much less likely to catch fire

41:42

than than than combustion cause an

41:44

and we need to reform the

41:46

electricity system for the benefits to

41:49

the economy, to business and to

41:51

public health so looks. I'm just

41:53

tell us how how people can

41:55

can understand more and and and

41:57

and and learn more of your

41:59

your. Your sage advice and tell

42:01

us about Flagler television and and and how

42:03

to get in touch yes of plug my

42:06

television which sham came about because people have

42:08

really good questions were battery tech and ease

42:10

and and quite often to just when guess

42:12

in the answers to they were looking for

42:15

on panel second set of swath of here

42:17

I'm sitting with the spread of information and

42:19

not just from the left the from actually

42:21

driving these machines since two thousand and nine

42:24

So yeah put my television says oh and

42:26

you should have the fact I've just launched

42:28

an exciting new kind of rebooted. Series of

42:31

as teams up with a familiar face

42:33

to the channel Mark Taylor anchors and

42:35

brief which on some interesting kind of

42:37

technical inside geek types including an interview

42:39

with son Williams of the race he

42:41

just recently so see it compare in

42:43

comparison to me with my shaky smartphone

42:45

camera footage it's a lot better and

42:47

of lot better looking but does he

42:49

has a loads of episodes with lots

42:51

of them. Useful infographics to

42:53

explain i'm batteries work and also get

42:55

a waiter energy a T V related

42:58

matters how of the also find me

43:00

on twitter as well of course at

43:02

one affect you and and also something

43:04

spawners the back of Put My finger

43:07

the Spotlight consulting suffering with actually meeting

43:09

a team electric and to cover anything

43:11

whether it's technical, strategic or public outreach

43:14

and whether it's projects to do with

43:16

battery tech, electric vehicles, charging infrastructure or

43:18

static energy source of don't the law

43:21

school and yet as. Great. Being able

43:23

to to mix of the working week I do

43:25

miss the lab on occasion about still go. Very

43:27

good friends who work there and I'm always gets

43:29

up today on the latest developments which is great

43:31

but yeah it's great to be able to help

43:33

out as many of the exciting projects that as

43:35

a half over the last couple years and I

43:37

look forward to continuing. Okay, thank

43:39

you very much Doctor You

43:42

and Turk Britain's real expert

43:44

on batteries. Thank you. Please.

43:46

Support our stop, adding some patrons and

43:48

help us to tackle misinformation about electric

43:51

vehicles and clean energy. Thank you

43:53

was always for listening. You'll find any of

43:55

the links we discussed in the show notes

43:57

and if you enjoyed this episode hearing will.

44:00

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44:02

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44:04

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44:09

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44:16

do so at patriot.com/stop Burning

44:19

Stuff. Thank. You. For listening.