0:00

Every business has been done, don't worry about it. Think about

0:02

it as a practice and experiment and you're just getting a

0:04

rep in because what will happen is you

0:06

have your idea for your business, you Google it, oh,

0:08

this one person finally took the idea that was going to

0:11

make me rich. It's like you didn't even know that idea

0:13

10 seconds ago. Don't worry about them. Just

0:15

think about it as an experiment and practice doing the

0:17

process so you can keep doing it until you find a

0:19

thing that works. Sometimes if you haven't heard of it,

0:21

that's an opportunity. So

0:47

Noah, I got to know you a

0:49

lot better actually through somebody that used to work for

0:51

you. His name is Amen and that's not going to

0:53

be a surprise. And

0:55

the episode with Amen was like straight fire.

0:57

He was just dropping gems. And

1:00

if people haven't seen or listened to that,

1:02

they need to check it out right now. So

1:05

before we get too deep into this conversation, can

1:08

you do me a favor? Can you introduce yourself?

1:10

Tell us a little bit about who you are so there's some context

1:12

and I'm just going to jump right in. Who

1:15

am I? That's always a funny question. Do you start with

1:17

business? How do we start? I'd say in

1:20

the business world, I've been figuring it

1:22

out like most of us out there. And I

1:24

figured out I don't like day jobs. And

1:27

then I figured entrepreneurship is the way that you can control

1:29

your livelihood and become a time millionaire. And you can also

1:31

be a cash millionaire. And so I

1:33

started so many different businesses after working at Facebook and

1:35

working at mint.com. I was one of the

1:37

early people at both those companies. I tried so

1:40

many different businesses to eventually find app sumo.com,

1:42

which is the number one site online for

1:44

software deals for solopreneurs. And

1:47

it's been an insane ride promoting

1:49

these deals, hiring people, losing the

1:51

team, going to India. Or

1:54

today, it's an $80 million business a year

1:57

revenue, which is unbelievable. It all started with

1:59

$12. It's just

2:02

a show that anyone else can do that out there.

2:04

And I wrote Million Dollar Weekend, which is my playbook

2:06

on how exactly anyone can copy it. And

2:08

who am I? Yeah, I think I'm trying to live this

2:11

world a little bit more fun and generous than I found

2:13

it. That's why I'm out here. I like

2:15

that. There's a lot to unpack

2:17

in the few things that you've said. So let

2:19

me go back to Aiman for a second, because

2:21

I think that's the biggest thing that I have.

2:24

As a CEO, when does

2:26

it occur to you that maybe you're better off

2:29

having somebody do it for a period of time

2:31

if I understand your relationship with Aiman? Yeah,

2:33

a lot of your audience is creative people, right, Chris?

2:36

Creative business people, yes. Yeah, and

2:39

I think there's a stigma and disbelief that

2:41

you can either be creative or you can

2:43

be in business. And I always think about

2:45

painters and artists specifically. The

2:47

most famous painters are definitely not the best. Like

2:51

Damien Hirst. I think he's pretty famous, right? Yeah.

2:54

This guy's stuff is fine. It's fine. It's a little

2:56

bit of a fighting word. Damien Hirst is one of my favorite

2:58

artists, but we'll let that swipe right now. Oh my God, it's

3:00

tough. Right, and so same with

3:02

Warhol. But these guys are the best business

3:04

operators. They're very excellent business operators.

3:06

And I think that's a great lesson for every

3:08

creative business person out there is that you can

3:11

do both. And

3:13

your question goes about that, which is, yes, you can

3:15

be creative. And my favorite book all time is Million

3:17

Dollar Weekend. But my second favorite book of

3:19

all time is The Artist's Way,

3:22

which I think if you're creative, you should

3:24

100% read that afterwards. And

3:26

it's the reality that you can be creative if you don't

3:28

have any customers, it's hard to make that a living. And

3:31

you don't have to be a starving artist anymore. That's

3:33

a misnomer. That's just not true. And

3:35

so in terms of delegating, I'm sharing all

3:38

these things about examples where that's not

3:40

the case, where you just

3:42

be an artist by yourself, you run it like a business.

3:44

And that comes through delegation. That comes through, how

3:47

do I practice hiring people doing things I don't want

3:49

to do? Or can I learn some of those areas?

3:51

So for me with AppSumo, I

3:54

found out that I solved the problem people are excited about.

3:56

And that's what you're doing in business. You're saying, hey,

3:59

I drew a piece of... art, I made a piece

4:01

of software, I drew, I made music, and

4:04

people are excited about this. Cool.

4:07

That's the fun and hard part. And

4:09

then the easy part is running it. And it's challenging

4:11

to stick with it, which is a whole other discussion. But

4:14

I got to a point where I didn't want to do it anymore.

4:16

And I think this is not really talked about is you know, people

4:18

say I don't want to do a business because I don't want to

4:20

do the work anymore. Great. No, I can

4:22

trade my money for someone else's time. And

4:25

that's not rude. People are like, Oh, you're big

4:27

meanie. Like, no, that's not

4:29

true. Like, Aiman had a day job at Microsoft that

4:31

he was fine about, but he always wanted to be

4:33

an entrepreneur. So it was a

4:35

great deal for him to make a lot of money, learning

4:38

how to run a business that was already working. And

4:40

now he's gone off to be one of the best

4:42

CEO coaches in the world I hire myself. And

4:45

so for me, it's really recognizing how do

4:47

you want to spend your time? Because sometimes

4:50

people have a business of one and they're super happy about

4:52

it. And great, do that. And there's

4:54

sometimes people are like, I'd like to make more money. And I'd like

4:56

to just spend my day doing art. And you can do that too.

4:59

And that's how I felt with AppSumo where I didn't want to

5:01

keep running the day to day of the business. And so I

5:03

looked for a long time and then it took a long time

5:05

to train him, but to get him up to speed and run

5:07

the business, which he did a great job of. Okay,

5:10

there's a point here that I think a lot of

5:12

people are not going to be able to understand at

5:14

all. You're doing

5:16

your craft, whether you're running an app company,

5:19

changing the world that way, or you're selling

5:21

creative services. I think so few people

5:24

link their whole identity and the personality in

5:26

that business that they just can't even delegate

5:29

the simple things, let alone say, here, you

5:31

take the driver's wheel.

5:34

So what was it? Can you pinpoint one or two

5:36

things that was happening that you're like, I don't want

5:38

to do this anymore. I need to find a solution

5:40

for this. And then I want to

5:42

ask you questions about what you saw in Aiman that made

5:44

you think he's a guy. So

5:47

for everyone out there, hiring is

5:49

like dating. Chris, your wife, is

5:51

it your first date? And you're like, okay, I'm just

5:53

the first person you've ever dated? No,

5:55

of course not. I wasn't. Well, I told my girlfriend

5:57

that last night and she's like, you've never been with

5:59

anyone. but me." And I was like,

6:01

that is true, you're the first. And

6:05

so what I recommend for everyone out there is

6:07

thinking about how do I practice leadership. And

6:10

you could practice leadership through hiring someone. And

6:12

I would recommend hiring an assistant or hiring

6:14

even your friend or hiring someone, anyone, as

6:17

a practice of realizing leadership and

6:19

delegation. And that's a lot of

6:22

business ultimately, right? And it doesn't

6:24

mean you can delegate your responsibility or

6:26

you can magically solve all your problems,

6:28

but practice it and then

6:30

you'll get better at it. So the easiest one is to

6:32

hire an assistant. I like the site, hiremymom.com for 20 bucks,

6:35

10 bucks. You can hire an assistant. That's an amazing mom. I think

6:38

that's a good practice. And that's something

6:40

I have to learn as a skill over time.

6:43

Now, I think what you're asking,

6:45

Chris, and it's a really great question, is like, when do you

6:47

know it's time to hire someone? When do you

6:49

know it's time to say, hey, I want to go back to my

6:51

art or, hey, I want to do the marketing or, hey, I don't

6:53

want to do this anymore? And so, number

6:55

one, when you're asking that question, that's

7:00

a great time to start thinking about it. And it's probably

7:02

a better time to start thinking about it six months before

7:04

that because hiring and dating, you have to

7:06

practice and your first date doesn't always work out. Now,

7:09

the other way that you can look for it

7:11

is just looking at your calendar. How much your calendar

7:13

sucks? Like how much are

7:15

you spending in meetings or doing sales or doing marketing

7:17

or doing programming or doing customer support that you don't

7:20

want to be spending time doing? And

7:22

so, that's the second time I would then reflect

7:25

on, how do you want to spend your time? And

7:27

then, I think you have to realize to

7:30

hire it, it takes a lot of time. And the other thing that

7:32

we talked about, it does take time for people to ramp up. So,

7:34

you have to be patient. And

7:36

I would say with all businesses, one of the things I'm

7:38

learning in my 40s now is

7:40

that there is high value in finding people to

7:43

work with for very long periods of time. And

7:46

given that you like them, pay them almost whatever it takes.

7:48

A lot of times, my favorite way to pay people is

7:51

just ask them how much money they want to make

7:53

and then help them get that amount of money. Eamon

7:55

told me a crazy number, 10x what he

7:57

was making at Microsoft. And I was like, okay, let's get you there. Let's

8:00

figure out how you can create so much money for the business

8:02

that you have to have that much. And

8:05

so in terms of when I noticed it, yeah, I was definitely within

8:08

those two areas when I was asking the question, which I

8:10

was like, I don't want to be running a deal site

8:12

right now for now. And that's a

8:14

good way to fit it for now. Doesn't mean forever. And

8:17

I just in terms of my time, I didn't want to be spending

8:19

it in that business. I was more excited. And this is a big

8:21

thing in business. I've got to call it out. I

8:24

was like, Oh, the next thing is going to be the easy thing. And

8:27

I wish it was. But it's like, you know,

8:29

the best way to have a good relationship, work

8:32

on the relationship, not get a new wife.

8:35

And you know that you're married. And guess what? I

8:37

love this quote. It's like you want variety in a relationship date one

8:39

person. And these

8:41

things, they take time to develop. So you have to you

8:43

do have to stick with the person. And they have to

8:45

also stick with the business because the best business is the

8:47

one that's working. So if you've

8:50

even gotten like one customer, awesome. Now

8:52

let's get a second. So I was talking about the law of 100. Like

8:54

just do 100 videos, get to make 100 calls, do

8:57

100 days. And

8:59

don't quit too soon. Because if you have something

9:01

even working a little bit, like my first sale with

9:03

appsumo.com 12 bucks. Yesterday, we did $280,000 in one

9:05

day. One

9:08

day I can't believe it. That's that that was beyond

9:10

my dreams. But you do have to start. And then

9:12

you have to be patient that it does take time whether you're hiring

9:15

someone else or whether you're doing it yourself. You're

9:17

opening so many threads here. My

9:19

hand is having a hard time keeping up as I want

9:21

to fall up on everything that you're saying. But

9:24

here's what I want to do. I want to make

9:26

it super concrete. I want to know if there's a

9:28

story or an inflection point because you're

9:30

giving us great advice like do this if you're asking these kinds

9:33

of questions. But I want to know Noah's

9:35

story specifically. Like what happened? Somebody came

9:37

in the office. You're like, that's it.

9:40

I'm done with this. I need to. Was there

9:42

a moment like that where it became clear to kind

9:44

of really personalize the story? Yeah,

9:46

by the way, that's a great question to ask in

9:48

interviews. Like tell me the story about it. Don't tell

9:50

me like generic things. So thank you for recommending that.

9:54

You know, I think people imagine that to start a

9:56

business, one, you have to have some special ability. That's

9:58

not true. that do very

10:00

well. And two, they're like, well, this is

10:02

just a thing I enjoy doing that can't really be a business and

10:05

the answer is yes. That's what you want. And

10:07

I didn't start AppSumo to be a big business. I wanted

10:09

to promote software deals because I thought that was a problem

10:11

that people had. I wanted to be a

10:13

customer. I want to make 3000 bucks a month, my freedom

10:15

number. That's all I wanted. And

10:18

it wasn't to make a business with teammates or

10:20

business that made any money necessarily that much more.

10:22

And over

10:24

time, though, there's a plateau in all of

10:26

our lives. And so with AppSumo, after about

10:28

four years, I was a little

10:31

just frustrated with the business. I went to

10:33

India. I walked around India alone for a

10:35

month, grew a beard, did a lot of

10:38

yoga. I think I was afraid of who I could become.

10:41

And I was afraid of ruining AppSumo. And so I thought

10:43

the best way to solve that was to get away from

10:45

it and avoid the hard part. And I think that's kind

10:47

of the message of my book and really my life for

10:49

others is like, what's the hard thing we're avoiding? And it's

10:52

not as hard as we think and we can overcome it.

10:55

And so I thought if I moved on

10:57

to another project and avoided AppSumo

10:59

and found someone safe to do it, they could do it

11:01

better than I can because I couldn't do it. And

11:04

then maybe this new thing will be easier for me. And

11:07

so it took

11:10

about a year to find AIMON. And this is one of

11:12

the things I think no one really hears about. You don't

11:14

hear about all things that failed. The same thing is true

11:16

for AIMON. AIMON applied for our marketing position at AppSumo and

11:18

we rejected him. He rejected

11:21

him. Same when I applied at mint.com to be

11:23

their marketing director. They rejected me. And

11:25

I think for a lot of people, they get rejected

11:27

once and they give up. And just think about it

11:29

like, okay, well, at least go twice. Give yourself the

11:31

second chance. Who knows what the upside of an ask is.

11:33

That's why I teach it. That's why one

11:36

of the core things I teach people is how to get better at asking.

11:38

So AIMON applied for the marketing thing. And then

11:41

we rejected him. And then this is the thing that really

11:43

separated him. I asked a friend Charlie, I

11:45

said, who's a great person you think could be our

11:47

CEO? That's an easy way to hire people, the referrals.

11:49

He said this AIMON guy. I looked up my inbox

11:52

and AIMON actually made a video. Do you

11:54

know about this? No, I know. Tell me the

11:56

story. I want to hear it. Oh, this video. It was

11:58

like an AppSumo ask. Brandon is very

12:00

silly. And

12:02

it was like, yo, dog, it's Aiman. You

12:05

got deals? I got deals. You want

12:07

to save money on software? It was like this kind of

12:09

over the top infomercial. And it

12:11

was just a little bit different than everyone else. And

12:14

it showed that he was at least willing to work.

12:16

I think a lot of people, you were like, even

12:18

this chat, I'm telling you about things, but I'm not

12:20

showing you things. So now talking about the

12:22

story is showing it. And

12:25

so I recall that Aiman put in a little

12:27

bit more effort. And then the

12:29

way we like to hire it up soon is we test.

12:31

So everyone starts as a contractor. So

12:33

we tested him for you have to get two deals in

12:36

two weeks. And that's still something we do this day. And

12:38

he got two deals in two weeks. And

12:41

then it was like, all right, Aiman, you need to make $120,000 a month and

12:43

don't mess it up. And

12:46

while we spent about a year ramping him up,

12:49

that was like his Bible,

12:52

his Quran, his Torah, like

12:54

to make this $120,000. And

12:56

it was really impressive. I have to give him a lot of credit

12:58

with AppSumo. Most

13:01

businesses are really simple, the ones that work are

13:03

really simple. And I think people think it has to be complicated. But

13:05

AppSumo is very simple. Find an awesome product,

13:07

negotiate a price, send an email. And you

13:09

just do that over and over and over. And

13:12

find that for yourself, find that in your own

13:14

creative agency business. And Aiman

13:16

executed that very well. And

13:19

so for two years, he did that. And

13:21

we went off to build sumo.com, which

13:23

was email pop ups. We thought that

13:25

what we were noticing with AppSumo is we do these deals and

13:28

some of the deals are like bang, we'd make like 100,000 and

13:30

some big deals would make 5,000. And

13:33

I think it was nice. One of the things

13:35

I've noticed as I'm older, it's like bringing in

13:37

new blood, bringing in fresh eyes, people who

13:39

don't know what they don't know, that are

13:41

also excited to be there. And

13:44

Aiman was very excited in those two years and

13:46

just he executed everything. He did the customer support

13:48

by himself. He did the marketing by himself. He

13:50

did the sales by himself. There

13:53

wasn't really much programming, but he did all of it. And

13:55

I think that's a core part of all of our businesses,

13:57

at least understanding it before you start delegating it away too

13:59

quickly. Then after two years

14:01

that our other business was doing well and

14:03

Eamon was running AppSumo that was making it

14:06

we were making enough money on our new product or like

14:08

Eamon you could do whatever you want and

14:10

that's where you know things got unleashed. Hmm

14:13

okay let me quickly

14:15

recap. We'll get into your early

14:17

history and how seemingly you're unemployable

14:19

but we'll get to that later if

14:22

there's time. So you find this

14:24

company AppSumo you run it for four years you hit a point

14:26

in which you're like I don't know if this is what I

14:28

want to do maybe I'm not the best person to do this

14:30

you go on your walkabout to India why India

14:33

of all places what did that hold for you?

14:36

Yeah I felt at

14:38

some point in AppSumo I wasn't proud of the work we

14:40

were doing like I didn't like the products we

14:42

were promoting and I think this is true for most people you

14:44

trade your nine to five for a five to nine meaning

14:46

you you do art or you do something

14:49

creative because you like it and then

14:51

eventually you're you're not doing the thing you actually really liked

14:53

and for me I liked promoting deals I like being online

14:55

I like getting attention I like helping and

14:57

I was doing less and less of that and

15:00

so if you look online you

15:02

look at the Beatles who I love and I

15:04

loved you know Steve Jobs and

15:06

it seemed like when they were at inflection points in

15:08

their lives they went to India. It's true. So I

15:11

was at a conference you know

15:13

in I think New Jersey but from this

15:15

guy named Ryan Lee and I was talking with my buddy

15:17

Rob and I was just like I feel very I don't

15:19

really like the work I'm doing I don't like how I'm

15:21

living and I like my girlfriend I was

15:23

like maybe I need to go to India like my idols did.

15:26

Yeah now in retrospect it seems like an avoidance strategy

15:29

versus just dealing with things I didn't like work I

15:31

could have fixed that didn't like my girlfriend could fix

15:33

that I could have actually just faced the problems but

15:36

I think a lot of times life we do these things

15:38

to realize that we can do them and we can overcome

15:40

stuff that we're afraid of so going to India for months

15:42

is an interesting place and shout out

15:44

to all the Indian people out there it's it's an

15:46

really impressive culture and country but definitely for myself was

15:49

what I needed to realize that I could do these things. Okay

15:53

so you don't have to go

15:55

to India it's awesome if you can go to India but

15:57

that period for you to just think and be kind of.

15:59

have unplugged a way, change your

16:02

environment to scenery. Yeah, well, one, you can just

16:04

go to an Indian restaurant. You

16:06

can just go to an Indian restaurant. Like I had Indians food last

16:08

night. And the other thing

16:10

that's kind of crazy about that story was

16:13

that the month I left, there was only four guys that have

16:15

sumo, Aiman wasn't there yet. It was

16:17

the best month we've had in years. So the

16:19

minute you leave things get better, is that what

16:21

you're saying? Yeah. Well,

16:24

I think sometimes we're holding on so tight to

16:28

our relationship or we're holding on so tight

16:30

for egos or identities, or to

16:32

like how things would be and maybe letting go a

16:34

little bit and seeing what happens when you let go.

16:36

And letting the team and letting your friends or letting

16:38

people around you support you or do their things. And

16:41

Chad, Eric and Anton, they did amazing. So

16:43

you got to the point, you're like, okay, I have

16:46

perspective, I can't be this guy. Somebody else needs to

16:48

do this. You said also

16:50

to prevent you from becoming the person you're afraid

16:52

of becoming. That's

16:54

probably a whole different podcast there. Yeah.

16:57

So you're like, I'm the guy who submits for the

16:59

marketing position. You're like, nah. But

17:02

somebody's like, hey, your friend, I think Charlie says, hey,

17:04

check out this Aiman guy. You're like, wait a minute,

17:06

I remember this guy. And so he

17:08

makes that extra effort and he tells you

17:10

culturally, he's as goofy as the brand is.

17:12

They're like, maybe I give this guy a

17:14

shot. And he comes in,

17:16

he starts doing the marketing stuff. You give

17:18

them clear marching orders. And

17:21

then it hits like two

17:23

years after his initial period. Is that when it

17:25

starts to blow up? No, I

17:27

mean, it didn't blow up. I

17:29

think one of our absolute success is that we're not, we've

17:32

had definitely inflection points and there's been key moments,

17:34

but we have compounded

17:36

business time. Compounded

17:38

business time. And I don't think this is recognized enough.

17:40

We're just like over and over and over again. We

17:42

keep improving slowly year after year. And

17:45

Aiman, I came from Silicon Valley

17:47

where Facebook, it's like, if you're not 1000Xing, you're

17:50

a failure, even though, even 1Xing is

17:52

pretty damn good. And Aiman was much

17:54

more slow and steady, which

17:56

I do believe the phrase like easy

17:58

come easy go. So if it comes. fast, it goes away fast,

18:01

just like crypto. And I think that's true

18:03

for business where if you can slow and steady, keep adding and

18:05

adding up and up and up and up and up, it really

18:07

compounds over time. And I'd say the other thing

18:09

in terms of hiring other people, you can't pay

18:11

for caring. You can't buy caring.

18:13

So it's very hard to

18:15

buy someone that cares about what you do.

18:17

But if someone cares what you do, that is

18:20

something really special. And I think we've done

18:22

really well with that.

18:24

I assume a lot of the people are entrepreneurs or

18:26

immigrants, or they're currently still entrepreneurs.

18:28

I just had a meeting with Nick who he's

18:30

got a teeth whitening business called Perfect

18:33

10. I got to give him a shout out up in Dallas.

18:35

If you need teeth whitening. He also runs our head

18:37

of growth. And so Aiman really

18:39

cared. And he was also a customer. I think

18:42

those are important points where some

18:44

customers think we just party all day or it's

18:46

like, no, we're pretty much working at a desk

18:49

like this. That's like my day. I get a

18:51

chat here, which I love. But

18:53

a lot of it's worked. And ideally, it's great work that you

18:55

like the part of what you're working on. And after two years,

18:57

though, Aiman, I was like an

18:59

Aiman tribute because I do owe a lot to Aiman. There's

19:02

a lot of amazing people in all of our lives. I think that's something

19:04

to kind of recognize. And

19:06

yeah, Aiman slowly started and this is

19:08

something where I think he really is

19:10

better at than me really slowly. How

19:13

do we just keep improving what's working instead of doing new

19:15

things? Like I'm a new I was

19:17

a new things guy, I think I've evolved from his

19:19

influence. But he was like,

19:21

this ad stuff is working. Like I started

19:23

doing ads and I got it to maybe

19:26

I was doing about 1000 a day when I

19:28

left. And then by the time Aiman I came

19:30

back as CEO, which is a story I'd like

19:32

to share, it's kind of crazy. I think

19:34

we got it up to like 100,000 a month. And then

19:37

we did affiliate, they tried affiliate and again, tested

19:39

then invested in he tried affiliate where they just

19:41

manually with a spreadsheet gave people like bitly links

19:43

and we're like, hey, see if this works. That

19:45

worked. Like it actually people were driving sales and

19:47

we did IDev affiliate, which is like a cheap

19:49

plugin. Then we did another thing. And now we

19:51

use impact, which is $120,000 a year. So what

19:53

Aiman did really excellently is

19:58

that he didn't try to fast grow it. He said Let's

20:00

just slowly do 10% a year, give or

20:02

take. And because you're not rushing, you can

20:05

be more creative, you're not forced to make money. And

20:08

what are the things that are already working? And how do we just

20:10

keep making it work better until there's no more left of it? And

20:13

I think that's something... Everyone hears that

20:15

stuff, but this way, and no one does it. It's

20:17

not a secret, right? There's no

20:19

internet guru claiming there's some massive,

20:22

here's a creative, sneaky thing. It's like, okay,

20:24

you have something working, how much more of

20:26

it are you doing? Let me give examples.

20:29

And today we have video ambassadors, we sponsor

20:31

video creators. We tested it last January. Now

20:34

there's a team of six people recruiting, sponsoring

20:36

video creators. We tested it, worked, and

20:38

now we doubled it. But that also means there's a lot of things

20:40

that don't work. And I think too many people do so many things

20:42

that don't work, and things that are

20:44

working, they're not fully maximizing. That

20:47

makes a lot of sense. Okay, so slow and steady

20:49

growth. And I can tell a little bit,

20:51

and I'm not professing to know either one of you really

20:53

well, but I can sense the different energy. You

20:56

know, Aiman is like Terminator vision. Slow

20:58

and steady, nothing flashy, just do the work, do the

21:00

work. And you're a guy who's like, I got

21:02

ideas, I'm going to do this, I'm going to go to India, I want to

21:04

start another company. Even in our conversations, I got

21:07

this, I got that, I'm having a hard time keeping up

21:09

with you. And you're saying now, you

21:11

know what? Yeah, that's all great in

21:13

Silicon Valley in terms of how they see things. But

21:16

for a lot of businesses, just looking

21:18

at incremental improvement, trying a few experiments,

21:20

and then just quadrupling

21:22

down on the things that work is a pretty

21:24

good recipe for success. And I think everybody can

21:26

get their head wrapped around that. Yeah,

21:29

the problem Chris is everyone can wrap their head. A lot

21:31

of people don't even get their first dollar. So that's why

21:33

I do run an $80 million a year business. And I

21:35

don't say that as a flex. But

21:37

all of it started with $12. All of

21:39

it started with basics, right? Like getting

21:42

your first dollar, practicing asking people things.

21:44

And then yes, there are things you can, a playbook you can

21:47

follow. But it's some of the basics that people miss

21:49

out on. That does end

21:51

up leading to these types of things. And

21:53

there's different energies across different people. And there's different

21:56

ways of running businesses. There's not only

21:58

one way. It's just finding the way that works best. for

22:00

you and finding something you're excited to work

22:02

on for the next 10 years. I

22:05

can't believe I get to do this stuff. This is so cool. And

22:07

guess what? Everyone else can too. This is

22:09

the craziest part about business. It doesn't matter. It doesn't

22:11

discriminate. You don't have to be short. You don't

22:13

have to be tall. You don't have to be Asian. You don't

22:15

have to be anything. You can be anything. In

22:17

sports, you have to be an age. You

22:20

have to know entrepreneurship is worldwide

22:23

and anyone can succeed in it. And I think that

22:25

realizing that it's a skill and an ability and a

22:28

language that we can all learn is really

22:30

empowering because I think there's times that we're led to

22:32

believe that, oh, Noah has some special

22:34

secret thoughts. Like, no, I've just been in the game

22:36

swinging a lot for a long

22:38

period of time. And yes, I do have more experience

22:40

and strategies now, but I've also been in it doing

22:43

it. Okay. In

22:45

case people are wondering, there's already two

22:48

metaphors that Noah is using,

22:50

sports and dating. So we'll see

22:52

if there's a third metaphor that keeps weaving itself

22:54

in. I'm keeping track, everybody. I'm keeping track. I've

22:56

got another, I've got more metaphors, man. I'm sure

22:58

you do. I bet you have a million metaphors.

23:01

So let's do it, man. I

23:04

mean, yeah, different, Aiman was a different approach. It

23:07

was nice to have Aiman. You know,

23:09

this is kind of, I hate sharing

23:11

it because no one wants to

23:13

hear champagne problems. And the reality though,

23:15

what's interesting is that when Aiman was running AbSumo,

23:18

I ended up kind of retiring and I was

23:20

making a million or million, two million, or three

23:22

million dollars, give or take per year. And

23:25

it was probably some of the most unsatisfying years of my life.

23:28

It was not, it was, which is crazy, right? You're

23:30

like, dude, shut up, rich guy. Like

23:33

go to Turkey and get a hair transplant. So you're making between one

23:35

to three million dollars just sitting on the beach and you're like, I

23:37

don't like my life right now. That's what you're saying? Yeah. Isn't

23:40

that crazy? I think we all think that once

23:42

we get money, life is like complete, life is a lot easier.

23:44

It's a much better being rich. So like, be rich and have

23:46

problems and being poor and have problems. I

23:49

would definitely, I would agree with that. But

23:51

it's nice to find something that you care to work on, which

23:53

we all can do and then you work hard on it. And

23:56

that's the stuff we're proud of in life. And we all can do

23:58

that. And Aiman. I guess for

24:00

a festival, I would even quit one day. And

24:04

I begged him not to quit. I was so afraid of

24:06

what would happen if I had to do it myself. By

24:10

the way, I share these stories, not like he's rich, he's poor,

24:12

whatever. He's super good looking, obviously, you

24:14

know, zoom in. But, ridiculously

24:17

good looking. But what I share, one

24:20

of the messages that's, to me, so powerful, is

24:23

that ordinary people get rich, and

24:25

we can all do this. We can all do these hard things.

24:27

You're not being a millionaire, you can be a thousandaire. You can

24:29

even have just weekend money, or date money. And

24:32

it's available to everyone. I think there's a lot

24:34

of messages out there about the

24:36

complications and expensive courses, and

24:38

the complexity that's unnecessary in

24:41

having success. And

24:43

we just have to face ourselves. And

24:45

that's what business is, this is the best way to learn

24:47

about yourself. I agree, you're

24:49

speaking my language here. I

24:52

wanna follow up something that you

24:54

mentioned that I find super fascinating. So

24:56

you're like, okay, I realize maybe I'm not

24:59

best suited for this, right? Any time to reflect and to

25:01

kind of think about what I wanna do with my life.

25:04

You bring a guy in who first didn't qualify, but

25:06

for whatever reason, you're like, let's give him a shot.

25:08

There's something here. And you're like, test,

25:10

test, test. In the very

25:12

absolute way, test, right? So you give very

25:15

clear objectives, and this is important for all

25:17

you entrepreneurs out there, to

25:19

say, like, here's what you're gonna be measured against, go

25:21

do this, and then watch them, and then keep watching

25:24

them. But the thing that I wanna ask you about,

25:26

which I think is a beautiful concept, which

25:28

is ask people what they wanna

25:31

make and design a structure so that they

25:33

can make it. And you said he's asking

25:35

for like 10X what he used to make. And

25:37

without getting into the specific numbers, unless you wanna

25:39

disclose that, how does

25:41

one do that? Because that sounds like a great way

25:44

to like bring the very best talent to your team.

25:47

Can you break it down for me how you can structure something

25:49

like that? The easiest

25:51

way to think about how to get paid more

25:53

is create more money. People

25:56

call it value, right? But really it's money. Aiman

26:00

can approach it, and this is true for

26:02

any role. If

26:05

you're not getting paid enough and you're like, well,

26:08

I'm not getting paid enough, you can do something about it. If

26:11

you're in customer support making 50 and

26:13

an engineer is making 250, you can do something about it. Now,

26:17

with Aiman, he was running the entire Absumu

26:19

business by himself for the first year. And

26:23

I think in year two, we added a revenue, like a performance

26:25

variable. I'm

26:27

not going to share his numbers. The idea was,

26:29

hey, Noah, if I can get the business, I'm

26:32

going to use an example, from $5 million to

26:34

$10 million, that creates an extra

26:36

$5 million. And

26:38

let's say the profit, that's revenue. Let's say profit's

26:40

a million. So you're getting a million extra

26:42

dollars. It's pretty good.

26:46

Do you think I could get $10,000 or $100,000 of that? 10%

26:48

or 5%? $50,000?

26:50

Yeah. And so think about

26:52

value-based pricing. I think that's, frankly, in everything.

26:56

I'm not worried about the hourly or having

26:58

negotiations on, well, this is what

27:00

market rate is. Don't compete with the market. Be the

27:02

market. And so if

27:04

you can make more money for any company, it's very easy

27:06

to justify your worth. And now, for

27:08

me as a business operator, one

27:11

of my most valuable things that I'm working with is

27:13

people sticking around for a while. I

27:15

have different... My YouTube team quit. I

27:18

had a guy quit last week.

27:20

Transition costs are very pricey. Very,

27:22

very pricey. I

27:24

regret not just doubling the salary

27:26

for the YouTube team and

27:29

just making it easy, like a no-brainer for them to stay.

27:31

I definitely regret that. And that

27:33

was with Aiman where it was like every year, how

27:35

much would I make? Okay, let's get you that number. And

27:38

then it made it easy for him to want to succeed. Most

27:40

people, I would say, are ambitious. Most people

27:43

want to be smart. So give him

27:45

a destination. And that's what I learned from Zuckerberg. Give him

27:47

one thing to do. Don't give him like, here's

27:50

10 KPIs and what's the one you want me to do? And

27:52

give him a timeline. You

27:55

want to buy when? Okay. And

27:57

ideally, what I think is necessary as well is like,

27:59

what are the principles or... boundaries that they should be

28:01

playing the game by. So

28:03

with Aiman, it was like, don't mess this up. His

28:06

was, I believe, 411. So

28:09

he had his goal, 120,000 a month, as every month. And

28:13

his formula, the boundaries that he could operate in

28:15

were 411, which is four deals, one

28:18

freebie, one app, Sumo, created product. Something

28:21

around that. And that was a very easy

28:23

playbook or operating. And then as you scale, it's

28:26

more complicated. You need principles to help make sure

28:28

everyone can operate without you. That

28:30

makes a lot of sense. Thanks for sharing that with us.

28:33

So for him, and many

28:36

people are actually in sales, marketing,

28:38

or running a company, the path

28:41

for financial upside is pretty clear.

28:44

They can literally have an impact

28:46

on what the revenue is going to look

28:48

like. What if

28:50

you're in a position where you're hiring someone, but their

28:54

connection to the revenue

28:56

isn't as clear? How do you build a compensation

28:59

package for them? Or do you? So

29:01

I'll share stories. I won't call out the people, but

29:04

there's someone at AppSumo who says, I want to

29:06

raise. Okay, why? Life's

29:08

more expensive. I know. So

29:11

it is for our customers too. We

29:13

don't just get free money. We have to make sure that they're happy. And

29:16

if they pay us, then we get more money. And so what are you

29:18

doing so that we can give you more money? Well,

29:20

I know, but I've been here. I know. That

29:23

doesn't mean our customers are more happy with us. What have you done for them?

29:26

Well, yeah. Oh, okay. Well,

29:28

so let's brainstorm. What can you

29:31

do that is creating wealth, meaning the customers come

29:33

back, the customers are happier, the

29:35

customers spend more, the customers reform more. And

29:38

so getting closer to that is an easy way

29:40

to justify your salary. And

29:42

I do think what entrepreneurship with nothing it talked about, Chris, and

29:44

you're kind of highlighting it is whether

29:47

as an employee or as an entrepreneur, you can

29:49

really as an entrepreneur create unlimited upside. There's

29:53

no limit to the amount of money. You can make

29:55

and in some jobs, a lot of them, there is

29:57

a limit to your upside. It

30:00

doesn't mean you should quit that job. It means maybe start your

30:02

own business. Or find out how do you

30:04

have more upside in your current company. With

30:07

this person at the company, one of the

30:09

ways you can also do it is there's

30:11

sites like pave.com or Radford or Carta. You

30:14

can get market comp suggestions or salary.com. Just

30:16

be like, well, in Austin, Texas,

30:18

50% of people are paid here. Here's

30:21

why I'm paid 50%. I

30:23

think that's just a kind of a weak way to get paid personally.

30:27

I think a cooler way to get paid is there's

30:29

a few approaches, but I got this message from a

30:31

different woman last week. We have a lot of amazing

30:33

women at AbSumo. And

30:36

she said, hey, Noah, we need to talk. That's

30:38

like the worst message you can ever send someone at a company.

30:42

I was like, well, there she goes. And she's one of

30:44

my favorites. I love this person. She's so

30:46

great. Pay people that are great more. Don't

30:48

even worry about it. It's like 10,000 or

30:50

1,000 in the grand scheme of finding someone

30:52

new and hiring someone and even Aiman. It

30:55

took a year to train him and a year for him to really

30:57

ramp up. It wasn't like he magically

30:59

came in and printed money for the business. I think that's

31:01

kind of assumed, but that's not the case. It was two

31:03

years before he got to his stride. And

31:06

so this woman though, which she did, what I thought was so cool,

31:08

I thought she was going to quit. I'm

31:10

like, well, are you really quitting today? I really

31:12

love you. What can I do? And my philosophy

31:14

in business, one, ask them for their salary. But two, be ahead

31:16

of your people. Don't wait for

31:19

them to tell you they're not making enough. I mean, you're not looking out for

31:21

them. When

31:23

you get ahead of their salaries, they know that you're actually taking

31:25

care of them. And so she did come to me and said,

31:27

hey, I know we do raises twice a year. We do them

31:29

in April and October. A lot of times if

31:32

you do it, when you're smaller, it doesn't matter.

31:34

But otherwise, it's just too inconsistent. Like, business is

31:36

good. Give us more money. Business is down. You

31:38

don't take salary away. And be aware, by the

31:40

way, y'all, when you're running a business, you're going

31:42

to make mistakes in salary. And just

31:44

be okay that that's going to happen and you can change it. So

31:47

she came to me with a... I

31:49

think it was a two-page document, Chris. Showing

31:52

me everything she's done, showing

31:54

me market data, showing me all

31:56

the things that are coming up, and then the amount

31:58

of money that she is pursuing. been responsible for

32:00

being a part of. She's not in sales. She's

32:03

not on product and engineering. She's in

32:05

another group. And it made it

32:07

very easy to justify the amount of value she's

32:10

creating for the business. Now,

32:12

what most people do is they complain. Ah,

32:14

I'd like more money. Okay. Now, make

32:17

it easy for your manager. And what

32:19

they do as well is they don't show you how to get it. They're

32:21

just like, well, can you tell me how I can get more money? That

32:24

doesn't make it exciting to pay you more. How do you make

32:26

it easy for people to pay you more money? And

32:29

you make it easy by showing them and asking like, Hey, here's

32:31

everything I can do and will do. I think it seems like

32:33

paying me a little bit more money is a no brainer for

32:35

the business. I think a

32:37

lot of people need to hear this part. So that it's

32:39

just not me saying it. At least

32:41

you have another person saying it. As

32:43

an employer, as a person who has to deal

32:46

with these kinds of things all the time, I

32:48

think employees start to think, well, I did my

32:50

job, pay me more. And

32:52

that's probably the wrong approach. You're saying that

32:54

it's an easy conversation. When

32:56

you can tell people, your your boss

32:58

or manager, here's how I'm making money

33:00

for the company in ways that you

33:02

might not be aware of. Here's how

33:05

I'm delivering delight or increasing customer loyalty

33:07

or satisfaction. Is this something

33:09

worthy of us talking about so that I

33:11

can receive more money? I think a lot

33:13

of people, especially younger people won't say which

33:15

generation but younger people just feel a certain

33:18

amount of entitlement that because I'm here, I

33:20

better receive an annual pay bump because

33:22

why? So can

33:25

you say it to them, dear employee, and just

33:27

tell them how to make more money? I want

33:29

you to think of that young person who wants to make more money.

33:31

What would you say to them? Ah, man,

33:34

I was that young, annoying asshole, frankly, I

33:36

fired a guy that was like me. You

33:38

know, and it takes time to mature and

33:40

everyone should get fired. Because then you learn

33:43

about that jobs aren't guaranteed, you're

33:45

replaceable. And even these businesses we work at,

33:47

Facebook may not be around in 100 years,

33:49

Elon Musk will be forgotten in 1000 years,

33:51

I guarantee you, it'll be forgotten.

33:55

I learned in high school that life's not fair.

33:57

I'm Mr. Natalia. Thank you. I

34:00

got to be plastine. He wouldn't give me the A-." He's like, Nope, this

34:02

is how life's going to be experienced. Cause

34:04

that's what you earned. And if you

34:06

want more, you have to do more. Like if you

34:09

want the job, and I'll tell it to if you're an

34:11

employee, right? Be an entrepreneur, don't be

34:13

an employee and be an entrepreneur in the company, create

34:16

more money for the company, the company will pay you more. We

34:19

have a lot of CEOs at AppSumo. I'm not the only

34:21

one. And

34:25

there's definitely ways to make it easier for yourself. If

34:27

you're, let's just take an example. You're at a company

34:29

and you're blaming, the company for not paying you more.

34:31

What are you doing about it? How do you take

34:33

power and put together a presentation showing

34:36

how you can make more money for the company? And there

34:38

are areas, let's say you're in customer support, right?

34:41

Like that is a job that's, you know, you have

34:43

to think about how replaceable am I, especially with some

34:46

of the AI stuff. It's definitely, I would be more

34:48

aware of that and more, more

34:50

thoughtful about it. And what a lot of people do 99%

34:53

is they wait for their boss to

34:55

tell them like, well, Hey, are you going to improve here? You

34:57

know, be the 1%. 1%

34:59

is someone in customer support making, let's say 50 K

35:01

saying, we should do live chats. So I tested

35:03

it out, or I found these options available.

35:06

And what most people do is they just take what they're receiving. They

35:08

don't ask or do the thing

35:10

that they think will actually benefit the

35:12

company. And that's, you know,

35:15

maybe in, let's say, large corporations, I worked at Intel,

35:17

which is a very large, shitty corporation like that may

35:19

not work. You might

35:21

get promoted and you'll get your 6% raise if

35:23

that, but you can also get fired by Intel. And

35:26

so I've always found it's less risky to work

35:28

in smaller businesses or start your own. And then

35:30

as you're working with the business, recognizing where the

35:32

money is being created and then try to be closer to

35:34

that. And if you

35:37

want to make more money at, you can do it.

35:39

That, I think maybe that's the ultimate message. Like it

35:41

is available regardless of gender or

35:43

race or age or height for

35:45

you to make as much money as you want. The

35:47

money is just not given out free. Right. I know our

35:50

customers are just like, Hey, Absimo team wants to raise. We

35:52

need to give them more money. They don't care that someone

35:54

in our team is requesting a pay raise.

35:57

And so it's an interesting balance of making sure customers are

35:59

taken care of. and your team is taking care of. Time

36:02

for a quick break, but we'll be right back.

36:05

All right, 10 seconds on the clock.

36:07

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it out at future.com. Welcome

37:44

back to our conversation. It

37:48

is impossible to ignore this glowing green book on

37:50

your desk table. I don't know why it's there

37:52

but it's just there. So I have

37:55

to set you up for the question. I

37:58

thought I asked Aiman a very controversial question. question,

38:00

but I'm going to ask you an even

38:02

more controversial question. I said, in

38:04

this day and age in America, with all the resources

38:06

in a developed country, with the internet and all that

38:08

crap going on, is it

38:10

possible for anyone to make $100,000 a year? And

38:13

he said, absolutely. But now I see

38:15

there's this book that says, not only can you not

38:17

do $100,000, apparently you

38:20

can make a million dollars in a weekend. So

38:22

here's my question to you. Is it

38:24

possible for everyone in America to make a

38:26

million dollars if they follow a certain blueprint?

38:30

Yeah. Because I've seen it. I've

38:32

done it and I've seen it. And if you would have

38:34

asked me that even two years

38:37

ago, I'd be like, maybe. Now,

38:39

one question that I would that people need to be

38:41

mindful of is how quickly will you receive your million

38:43

dollars? It probably won't come in the weekend, even though

38:45

in the next decade, someone will do that. But

38:48

it could take a year or two years or three years. So

38:50

you have to practice on how to not give up too soon.

38:53

Now, let me just share a story from this

38:55

morning's breakfast. I met with this guy named

38:57

Patty Galloway. He's a very famous YouTube consultant. You

39:00

know this guy, Chris? You ever heard of him? The name sounds

39:03

very familiar. Yes. Anyways, this guy

39:05

is 27 years old from Northern Ireland. I

39:07

still don't know where Ireland is versus Scotland.

39:09

I'm very confused with those two places. He's

39:12

not from Silicon Valley. He's from a small

39:14

town where $30,000 a year is a lot.

39:19

I can't share how much he makes, but it blew my mind. And

39:23

it was very clear the ability for

39:25

finding something that people are excited to

39:27

pay you for, sticking with

39:29

it. Right. Most

39:31

people don't. I think I was

39:33

talking about this, but most people get it backwards. They

39:36

quit too soon and then they don't stick with winners.

39:38

And they need to do the, you know, they're like,

39:40

just find the winner really quickly and then stick with

39:42

it. That's the formula. And so he

39:44

found through he was very good

39:46

at consulting on YouTube. And now he has built

39:48

a very large business for a 27 year old

39:51

without. I don't even know if he went to college. I

39:54

don't think he's got a big social media following to

39:56

begin with at all. Just from some random place in

39:58

Ireland. and everyone can

40:00

do that whether you have a social media following

40:03

whether you went to college no matter what there's

40:05

so many especially if you see my youtube channel

40:07

there's so many ways of getting rich. So

40:10

many crazy ways of getting rich but you do have

40:13

to start. You have

40:15

to ask people for things and you have to stick with it for

40:17

some period of time. Okay is there

40:19

something more concrete or playbook can

40:22

you give me some examples of things we can do. Yeah

40:26

let me walk you through more

40:28

stories that are tell the playbook and you

40:30

know i share the exact step by steps

40:33

and at the website. A

40:35

lot of videos and things of that nature but

40:38

i've met people recently one of

40:40

them her name is mackenzie. Mackenzie

40:42

you know similar to most probably listeners how

40:44

the day job she was working at warby

40:46

parker making six figures but dream to be

40:48

an entrepreneur. And

40:50

you know a lot of us don't have ideas or don't

40:52

think we're ready or don't think we're qualified or don't realize

40:54

that yes we can do it you can do it. And

40:57

she wanted to make connections for people

40:59

and so she sent an email to

41:02

friends and family and said hey i want to do a greeting

41:04

card business and i want to buy greeting cards for me. People

41:08

did it was validated again what's important

41:10

is make sure you find something people actually

41:12

want you're not convincing them you're not making

41:14

them by. Then all you

41:16

do is stick with it that's why i love the law of 100 do 100

41:19

days do 100 sales do 100 posts do 100 videos. And

41:24

in her first year. She

41:27

sold $50,000 worth of greeting cards

41:29

it's mary make free calm I gotta give her a shout out cuz

41:31

i'm so proud of her and

41:34

anyone else can do that too. Now

41:37

in terms of the playbook of let's maybe break

41:39

down some of these elements there's really starting building

41:41

and growing and within 48 hours which reason I

41:43

have a weekend. Because I have

41:45

to tens of thousands of people realize when you have

41:48

a very limited time you'll focus on what matters and

41:50

what matters is actually solving a problem people want and

41:52

if they don't want it great you get learning. You

41:55

can try again next weekend i can

41:57

tell you kris twenty even now it's probably almost

41:59

30 different. businesses I've tried that network. Right?

42:04

You only need one hit in life to succeed in

42:06

business, which is so cool. Just one. And that's

42:09

it. And so the

42:11

things that are important is starting and asking. So starting,

42:13

really, how do you just start right now? The number

42:15

one takeaway from the book so far that from surveys

42:17

and research is now not how

42:20

this is the biggest breakthrough for everyone, which is what

42:22

can you do right now on

42:24

the phone while you're in your podcast listening or

42:27

while you're watching YouTube? Can you post on social

42:29

media saying, Hey, does anyone want

42:31

to buy my art? What

42:33

else can you do right now? Can you call someone say,

42:35

Hey, do you want to buy like a

42:37

air purifier? I might want to start an air

42:39

purifier website. You can

42:42

do that right now. And the more you

42:44

realize you don't need domains, you don't need more courses. You don't

42:46

necessarily need more books. You don't need to spend any more money

42:48

and you can find these things out. Even if you have a

42:50

very small network, you can have very big

42:52

wealth of very small networks. And

42:54

so you got to start right now. And the second

42:56

part is asking. So she did

42:58

a great job and asking is this big scary

43:01

thing. Oh my God, I've got to bug someone.

43:03

No, she said, Hey friends,

43:05

I'm trying this idea. Can I get your feedback? What do you

43:07

think about it? And I always talk about the

43:09

coffee challenge where the someone I came up with where practice

43:12

asking and getting rejected and realizing it's not so

43:14

scary. The point you go

43:16

and ask for 10% off and you get coffee Starbucks ideally,

43:18

so they reject you. They say no. And you

43:21

realize, Hey, I got rejected. I'm

43:23

still alive. I'm a strong person. Look at my

43:25

muscles. Go you. Let

43:28

me go see what else I could ask for. And

43:30

asking and selling have very negative connotations, but if

43:32

you find something people want and

43:34

you've been practicing it on something silly, it actually

43:37

makes the whole experience very fun, frankly, and

43:39

easy. So she got good at

43:42

asking. She just asked her friends for feedback. I got this

43:44

idea. Now the next two parts

43:46

that are key, I would say

43:48

is making sure you're in a million dollar market, right?

43:51

You can work very hard on something

43:53

that no matter what you do, you won't make it up money.

43:57

And so fun example of that is I had a

43:59

masseuse come to the house. from my girlfriend, it was $140.

44:01

And I was like, do you

44:03

know how many massages she has to do to make a million

44:05

bucks? That's a lot

44:07

of backs. But

44:12

if she did a coaching,

44:14

and then she worked on hiring

44:16

other masseuses, she could actually probably do that

44:18

in half the time. Or she then ultimately found

44:20

that that was working and created a software platform, she couldn't

44:22

even do it in less than time. But

44:25

you can start and again, my point with

44:27

that though is thinking about the size of that market. There's only

44:29

so much money you're going to make with your own hands doing

44:31

backs. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's great if you're starting

44:33

a business there. But if you want to make more money, just

44:36

thinking about how big is that opportunity? Because

44:39

I've run really fast up in the

44:41

wrong direction. Really fast. I

44:44

have a website, freecalls2.com. Don't

44:46

go there. And I

44:48

worked a lot on it. And the most I ever

44:50

made was 50 bucks. It's a voice over IP affiliate

44:52

site. A lot of terms in

44:54

business, think about it as reps. It's like practice. You're

44:56

practicing and practicing and practicing. And if it doesn't hit,

44:59

that's okay. But you're still getting the reps and you're

45:01

learning something. And now,

45:04

again, you have to make

45:06

sure the ideas are in markets that at least are million

45:08

dollar. And I've interviewed a lot of billionaires and I've worked

45:10

for them. There's a lot of differences. But one of the

45:12

key ones is they're working in billion dollar opportunities. Now

45:16

in terms of ideas, a lot of there's, this

45:18

is in a book and it's totally broken down. But how do I come

45:20

up with an idea, Chris? I got no ideas. Or

45:22

then you have this other problem, which I'm not surprised

45:24

about. I got too many ideas. All these are avoidance

45:27

techniques, which I'm an expert in avoidance. That's

45:29

where I went to India. I

45:33

know avoidance. My therapist, I quit my therapist who

45:35

said I avoided. And in

45:38

terms of ideas,

45:40

I'll give you three ways to

45:42

do it in three minutes, very quickly. Anyone can do it. Just

45:46

think about your day and break it down into morning,

45:48

afternoon, and night. And just think about things that were

45:50

annoying or problematic. Like

45:53

even today, like, Chris, thinking about

45:56

your day, like anything that took a long time, anything

45:58

that bothered you, anything with your girl. Anything

46:00

that happened to you that was like, oh, that was a little bit

46:02

annoying. What do you think? What's the first thing that comes to

46:04

mind? Shoot. Let's

46:07

say breakfast. My

46:09

day started a little early today and I

46:12

wasn't able to eat my protein shake this

46:14

morning. How come you didn't wake up

46:16

on time? Or how come you didn't wake up early enough? Social

46:19

media. Last night

46:21

or this morning? This morning, I got

46:23

up at seven. I

46:25

should have jumped straight into the shower, gotten ready and

46:28

then had my protein shake. That was one

46:30

problem I had this morning. But I also knew it was

46:32

like, I have a warming up

46:34

my brain, like now I'm gonna get up. And

46:37

so the social media stuff makes me wake up. I'm

46:39

like, okay, put this down, let's go. Okay.

46:44

And then you had breakfast. What'd you eat for breakfast? I

46:46

didn't eat breakfast today. Okay, you wanted to eat

46:48

a protein bar. What kind of protein bar? What kind of breakfast do you

46:50

like? Yeah, usually a protein shake or a

46:53

protein bar to get my protein. Cause

46:55

that muscle that we've been talking about. Bro,

46:57

you got them gains. You didn't come

47:00

in. Okay. And then you got a girlfriend or

47:02

wife. You get her flowers. How's the relationship in

47:04

the morning? Do you see her? Do you give her a kiss?

47:06

Didn't see her. I haven't spoken to her.

47:08

Is that normal? Depends on what

47:10

day. Yeah. Cause of our schedules. Yeah. Like

47:13

she'll, she'll do yoga. She'll drop my kid off at school. And

47:16

then we usually get together for lunch. Okay.

47:19

So even in, okay. So let's just even like, I know people are like,

47:21

what the hell, what's going on here? Right. Those

47:24

are three, there was three businesses in what you

47:27

just brought up. So every problem, inconvenience, annoyance is

47:29

an opportunity. So first

47:31

thing was you wake up and check your phone, Chris, would it

47:33

be cool if every morning I had a report for you of

47:35

the coolest shit on social media that I printed out for you

47:37

or emailed you that's customized for

47:39

you again, I've been pretty clear. I'm

47:42

just telling the opportunities I heard. Now you check to

47:44

make sure there's a million dollars there. And then you

47:46

follow through with validation and see if people actually want

47:48

it. And I'm not going to build shit. I'm

47:50

not going to spend a lot of time. I only got 48 hours. So

47:52

one, so to me it's not bad,

47:54

but maybe what you want to curate it, maybe you want

47:56

a customized newsletter that I make just for Christo, maybe just

47:58

for you. Second thing, we

48:01

talked about your breakfast. Sounds like

48:03

maybe there's an opportunity to make your breakfast even easier. Like, hey,

48:05

Chris, what kind of protein bars do you eat? What kind of

48:07

breakfast do you eat? How do you think about your breakfast? Is

48:09

it a lot of energy thinking about your breakfast? How much do

48:11

you spend on breakfast? Business is

48:13

really listening to problems and then solving the ones people

48:15

want to pay you money for. I

48:17

know, it's so complicated. And people are like, no, tell me the

48:20

complicated stuff. I'm like, the complicated stuff is because people are selling

48:22

you. And if you have a very

48:24

limited time and you're not spending money, you can actually solve

48:26

the thing that matters. Now, the third one is, it sounds

48:28

like your girlfriend. She's dropping your kid off at work. You're

48:30

not seeing her in the mornings. Sounds like there's an opportunity

48:32

to how do we improve your relationship? And I'm

48:34

telling you, you guys have a 10 out of 10 relationship. But

48:37

maybe I can do flower delivery for you. Maybe

48:40

I can have notes that you can write for your girlfriend. And I

48:42

send you monthly notes that you can write, hey, have a great morning.

48:44

I'll see you at lunch. Maybe there's a

48:46

lunch delivery service. That's literally

48:48

from like, what, a two minute chat? And look, you can

48:50

say, hey, none of these matter. But what

48:52

I'd recommend is you can pre-sell anyone to see

48:55

if they'd actually pay you. Like so in

48:57

these three ideas, is there anything right now today you'd feel

49:00

comfortable giving me a deposit for? I

49:04

need to make it refundable. No worries. There's

49:06

an ask right there. Oh, there it is. So

49:08

we're asking. And we practice it

49:10

on a stupid ass coffee. So

49:13

if I have to ask a friend that has a problem that I can

49:15

help, do they mind supporting me on this

49:17

endeavor? And a lot of times in business, we want to

49:19

make it harder on ourselves because then we don't face

49:21

the rejection. We don't face the

49:23

reality that people may say yes, they may say no.

49:26

And more often, they're actually going to say yes

49:28

than we realize. Our friends want us to succeed.

49:32

Our network and friends want us to succeed. Now

49:35

there are other parts of the playbook, which is like, how do

49:37

you scale it? And all this other stuff. That

49:40

stuff's easy. But

49:42

finding the thing that people really want and getting three

49:44

customers in 48 hours is the golden

49:46

ticket to creating your own life

49:48

and as much money as you want to make. That

49:51

was like a mini brainstorm workshop right

49:53

there, everybody. And again,

49:56

Chris, people are going to laugh. You're going to be like, that

49:58

was too easy. No way. That

50:00

was just one way of doing it. I just asked Chris about

50:02

his morning. We didn't even get to afternoon. You

50:05

can also look at your credit card bill. I love that

50:07

one. That was sponsored by Tim Ferriss, inspired by him. You

50:09

can also look at, hey, what have I avoided doing? What

50:13

am I not doing around my house? What am I not doing

50:15

in life? Guess what? That's a business for others

50:17

and for yourself. That's a good one. What

50:19

is the credit card one? You look at the credit card and what do

50:21

you do with a credit card? Oh my

50:23

God, those are great business opportunities. So

50:26

we use that AppSumo DocuSign. And

50:29

I hate DocuSign. We don't need it very

50:31

often. It's subscription for something you don't

50:33

use very frequently and all this stuff. Saw

50:35

it on my bill and then I was like, oh, I

50:38

love being my first customer. Doesn't

50:40

mean it's guaranteed to work, right? You still have to

50:42

go validate with pre-selling. And if you start thinking, by

50:44

the way, people will get their mind blown when they

50:47

realize everything is pre-sold to them. They're

50:49

like, no, I wanna see it before I buy it. Okay, did

50:51

you see your flight? Did you see that airplane before you buy

50:53

your plane ticket? No,

50:55

but of course the plane's there. How do you know the plane's there? Oh,

50:59

I guess I don't know. Concert ticket. I bought a

51:01

concert ticket to Drake. Do you buy it

51:03

the day of? Or did you buy it a month before? No, I bought

51:05

it a few months before. How'd you know Drake is gonna show?

51:07

I don't know. And if it doesn't sell pre-sell,

51:09

guess what? Great, you can tell them, hey, it sounds

51:11

like you don't want it. Great, let me find something

51:13

you do want. Your point about

51:15

the credit card bill, I saw that DocuSign was

51:17

complicated and I went and looked up anyone in

51:19

the past five years that emailed me a DocuSign

51:22

and I contacted them. I put them on a, I call

51:24

it the Dream10, make it easy, but I did Dream30. It

51:27

was 30 people who messaged me a DocuSign. And

51:29

I just contacted them, text, WhatsApp, DMs,

51:32

phone calls, active, and I pre-sold.

51:35

And so in 24 hours, I got a lot of no's, because

51:38

we've been practicing, it wasn't so scary. And I also

51:40

got some yes's. And I've

51:42

seen this also in agency businesses. I got an email, so

51:44

I made $3,000 in 24 hours, this

51:46

was two weeks ago, and I didn't use any social media.

51:49

No email list, no nothing. I

51:51

saw someone a month ago who sent

51:53

an email saying, hey, my friend is a

51:56

photographer and she'd love to take photos of people.

51:58

If you're interested, just reply to this email. Most

52:01

of these big billion dollar businesses started as an

52:03

email or a side hobby or something that's silly

52:05

and not something so serious. And I think that's

52:08

mistaken and overlooked a lot of the time. Just

52:11

let me get this clear. You look at your

52:13

credit card, you look for things you pay for that annoy you and

52:15

then you're like, let me try that as

52:17

a business idea. Is that the credit card concept?

52:20

The credit card concept is what am I paying too

52:22

much for that bothers the shit out of me. Like

52:25

I hate Stripe. I pay too much for Stripe. I

52:27

hate DocuSign. I pay too much for

52:29

DocuSign. I hate pool cleaners. I hate my

52:31

pool cleaners. It's like $200 a week and I have pool problems. I

52:34

don't even check my pool problems. By

52:37

the way, business idea. Pool

52:39

cleaners and bikinis. That was my girlfriend's business idea,

52:41

not mine. But

52:43

that's just like, I mean, I can even try

52:45

to let me pull up my credit card bill

52:47

for like right now. But again, these are just

52:49

thinking about things that anything that's bothersome or

52:52

is an avoidance are all businesses or

52:54

things that you desire that don't exist.

52:56

All businesses. Is your

52:59

girlfriend going to launch this bikini pool business? It's

53:02

a, she's in beta testing with just one customer

53:04

right now. That's me. We

53:06

want to really test this one out for years

53:08

before it is fully ready to launch. She

53:12

weirdly loves pool. Also, again, y'all

53:16

notice anything you've done that people responded to. And

53:19

so a little while ago when I was

53:21

studying her in Austin, she was cleaning the pool and

53:23

she's like, I love cleaning pools. I was like, I've

53:25

never ever heard anyone say that. I love my girlfriend.

53:27

She's a normal woman. She was in a bikini and

53:30

I was like, wow, I would pay for this every

53:32

week. I'd have the cleanest pool in all

53:34

the world. I was like, oh,

53:36

that's kind of funny. It's kind of silly.

53:38

It's silly. Think about hooters. I mean, I still feel

53:40

I don't go there, even though I've heard their wings

53:42

are good. It's very awkward. I think that's

53:44

like $100 million business. It's

53:47

just a restaurant with someone in bikini. Again, I'm not

53:49

encouraging bikini stuff. But it

53:51

was just interesting that, oh, wow, that's

53:53

a little bit different than the

53:55

normal pool cleaning. My credit card bill I saw, I

53:57

hate pay. It's like $200 bucks out of this.

54:00

180 for every week, every other week. It's just like a lot.

54:03

I pay for pool cleaning. I'm

54:05

glad the guy comes out here to clean the pool. It's hard

54:07

work, man. It is. Oh

54:09

my goodness, especially when it's hot. Again, what we're trying

54:11

to come back on though, Chris, is the

54:13

opportunities. Yeah. Right? So you look at

54:15

things you've avoided, you look at your credit card bill

54:17

to see if there's anything that's expensive, you think about

54:19

your own day. And for Ab sumo, I mean, I

54:22

was the first customer. I wanted software deals on tools

54:24

for entrepreneurs. Right. And it was like, how

54:26

can I find out very quickly if this is what other people want

54:28

too? Okay. So while you're pulling up

54:30

your credit card bill, I want to tell

54:32

you where our audience gets stuck. What you

54:34

say makes too much sense to me. It

54:37

just makes too much sense. And so creative

54:39

people, they want to live a harder life than

54:41

they need to. So yeah, yeah. So I did

54:43

look at my day, but I really want

54:45

to do this weird thing that nobody really wants. That's

54:49

what I want to do. And I'm, I

54:51

believe I have a vision of the future. This is the

54:53

whole convergent versus

54:56

divergent thinking. Like, Oh,

54:58

everybody's so logical. I don't want to be that

55:00

logical. No, I want to do something

55:02

so weird that people haven't thought of, but I know

55:04

they all need this thing. I can't

55:06

tell you how many people in my life are like

55:08

this, whether they're self described creatives or not. They're like,

55:10

here's the thing that nobody's ever thought about, but I'm

55:12

going to do this thing because I don't even sure

55:14

anybody wants it. They don't think I like

55:16

that, but that's how it comes out. How

55:19

do you help those people? So

55:21

walk, tell me a person. Yeah. Like who's

55:23

a person? Don't say their name. Maybe if you don't want to, but like, tell

55:25

me who the person is you're thinking of and

55:27

like walking through what they're currently doing maybe at a high

55:29

level and quickly. So it's going to be hard for me

55:31

to say it without them knowing exactly. Cause they're doing such

55:34

strange things that as soon as they say they're like, Oh,

55:36

he's talking about me right now. But let

55:38

me try to extract it and see if I can help

55:40

you understand the mind of the creative

55:43

person, please. So instead of

55:45

doing say branding or identity design work,

55:47

they create some weird sub niche that

55:49

is hard to understand and

55:51

no one's looking for. So

55:53

they think that's my ticket and

55:56

it's not validated by any market because they

55:58

can't sell it. They have even

56:00

a hard time explaining what it is that they do. How

56:04

can you help them? This is a mindset

56:06

problem, I believe. Yeah, it's a

56:08

mindset. You can't help

56:10

someone who doesn't want to help themself. I

56:12

can't convince someone that it's different. That's

56:16

not my job. My job is to help

56:18

the people who want to help themselves. And so what I recommend for

56:20

everyone is if what you're doing is working, don't listen

56:22

to me. Right? If

56:26

you want to scale and you're at

56:29

a place where you've tried something and it's not worked, or you

56:31

want to try something and you need a playbook to do it,

56:33

listen to me. And

56:35

so what I've noticed is that people get very

56:37

pot committed using poker terminology, meaning they have a

56:39

thing, no one's buying it, but

56:41

they're stuck on it. And the problem, Chris, is that

56:43

we've glorified failure. I

56:46

tried this thing for 10 years and it didn't work,

56:48

but I know that this other person tried for 10

56:50

years. It's like, why don't you try the thing that works

56:52

and then stick with that for 10 years? But

56:56

we've glorified Edison, we've glorified

56:58

James Dyson, even maybe a

57:00

little Elon. Elon took six years to deliver this truck,

57:03

10 years to deliver the Model 3. Okay, it's

57:05

gonna take a long time for it to work. But

57:08

both those examples, take them

57:10

as an example, both of them had a

57:12

billion dollars of pre-orders. Pretty

57:14

clear that if he finished whatever weird-ass

57:17

icon he was doing, that there's demand

57:19

for it. Now, what I

57:21

encourage people to do is experiment. So

57:23

if what you're doing and you're really excited, then Chris,

57:25

by the way, everyone's already committed to their own plan.

57:27

So as I've gotten older, I just say, I'm glad

57:29

that you're trying, stick with your plan.

57:32

And if it's not working, that's good. At least you're doing

57:34

something, you're at least getting momentum going. But

57:37

why don't we experiment and

57:40

try emailing someone

57:42

right now that's been a previous customer, or you think could

57:44

be a customer, and asking them if they would pay for

57:46

it. No, that's a

57:49

little uncomfortable. Maybe

57:51

even do it for free. Let's even do there. I

57:53

don't always recommend that just because it's free, doesn't mean

57:55

people will pay it in the future. But hey, I

57:57

wanna do this idea where I take photos for families.

58:00

Would you pay for that? Or can I do it for free? And

58:03

then I think you'll be a little surprised. And

58:05

so don't make it an all or nothing play. I don't think that

58:07

works. Don't quit what you're doing

58:09

because most people are very fixated on their own plans.

58:13

But at least experiment and see what

58:15

happens. And I think most people,

58:17

when they start taking action right now, and

58:19

when they actually try to do something people

58:22

want, they're surprised about the results. And

58:25

I will tell you, when you find something that people are excited to

58:27

have help on from you, like I have a

58:29

designer, shout out to Baldo, or

58:32

I have a book marketer, like

58:34

these people. It's so nice.

58:38

Like in Baldo, this is a crazy story. This guy makes

58:40

a lot of money down in Brazil. He

58:42

saw that I tweeted

58:45

about my website and he just sent me a

58:47

mockup. He's like, hey, I know you kind of complained about your

58:49

website. And he sent me a mockup just

58:51

because he wanted to. And he wanted to practice. And

58:53

that has led him now to build all these original

58:56

products. The Absum original is all led by him. Just

58:59

try to do something a little different. And I think

59:01

if you experiment, it feels great. What can you learn?

59:04

And if it works, great. You're going to learn something too. And

59:06

it's working, which sounds like for a lot of these people,

59:09

you're saying it's not working. You

59:11

gave a really practical answer. I

59:14

just want to reiterate that for everyone who was like, wait,

59:16

wait, what was the answer here?

59:18

So you're not discouraging people from their hair,

59:20

brain ideas. You're like, okay, you're committed to

59:22

it anyways. You're part committed. So

59:25

you're like, you know, you might try some things. And the

59:27

best thing that you can do if

59:29

you're not 100% sure is to validate it through the market

59:33

via pre-sale. Just find out

59:35

if somebody is willing to take it for free. And

59:38

sometimes, believe it or not, the things

59:40

that people offer me for free, I don't even take. That's

59:42

how bad the offer is. So if they can't take it for

59:45

free, you have

59:47

a pretty clear indicator that this may not be something

59:49

you want to go on for about seven years, unless

59:51

you have a billion dollars in the bank or

59:54

a billion dollars worth of pre-orders. So

59:56

would they pay for it? And if you can get

59:58

enough market validation, I love the this whole idea, you got 48

1:00:00

hours, get three customers, test

1:00:02

your ideas, see if it works. And then decide

1:00:04

then if you want to invest more time and

1:00:06

energy, did I get that right? Yeah,

1:00:09

I mean, it's cool to be a well-fed

1:00:12

artist these days and it's available to

1:00:14

everyone, right? And I think

1:00:16

there's a balance and there's definitely this balance of life. Like

1:00:18

what do you want to do on this planet versus what

1:00:21

this planet wants to reward people for? And

1:00:23

you could do it your way and that's

1:00:26

fine. And maybe it works, but you also have to be mindful

1:00:29

of the people who want to spend money on these things. And

1:00:31

it's exciting, I will say it's very exciting

1:00:33

getting validated on the idea you have. Like

1:00:37

when I got my first hundred dollars on

1:00:39

this DocuSign alternative two weeks ago when I was showing

1:00:41

people that it works, even

1:00:43

though yes, I have all this money and blah, blah, blah,

1:00:45

I was like super excited. I was

1:00:48

like, hell yeah. Like

1:00:50

failure, rejection, which still

1:00:53

happens. Wow,

1:00:55

someone believes in me, like I'm gonna believe in

1:00:57

myself. Maybe I can do these things. And I'll

1:00:59

tell you with art, there's this woman, Carrie Caulfield.

1:01:01

She, I think she does like corporate training as

1:01:03

her day job and she just loves

1:01:05

being an artist. So she did the same thing and I've seen

1:01:07

her paintings. I told her I'll be our fifth

1:01:09

customer. And she just asked her

1:01:11

friends and then she just posted her painting

1:01:14

in her hair salon. And

1:01:16

look, it's not gonna make a million dollars immediately. But

1:01:19

it's like this practice of starting and starting and

1:01:22

doing and sticking with it that over some time,

1:01:25

what's the difference between Carrie Caulfield and Andy Warhol?

1:01:28

Not much, Andy just found an area of art that

1:01:31

worked for him and then he did it in

1:01:33

a very extended period of time. And I

1:01:35

think that's the reality for everyone out there

1:01:37

with art specifically and designers and people

1:01:40

like that. There may be a few

1:01:42

more differences, but I don't wanna get into an art debate with

1:01:44

you. But there's

1:01:46

nuances. Yeah, there's definitely nuances.

1:01:48

Because you touched on two of my favorite artists,

1:01:51

but we'll get into that later. So whatever happened

1:01:53

to Mackenzie, you said that she did $50,000

1:01:55

for her first year. Do

1:01:57

we have a status update with her? Like this greeting.

1:02:00

That was last year. Oh, it was

1:02:02

last year? That was last year. But what's crazy,

1:02:04

and this is a common trap, is

1:02:06

what we talked about earlier. It's

1:02:08

this plateau. And she's like, she just got

1:02:10

to 50,000, which is unbelievable. And

1:02:13

now she said, hey, I want to do a new business. Uh-oh.

1:02:17

Exactly what you were asking me about earlier. And

1:02:19

she said, hey, no, I want to do this new

1:02:21

business where I design people's presentations. I said,

1:02:24

oh, that's interesting. And again, I'm not here to judge. I'm

1:02:27

just here to ask questions. Okay, how come you want to do that?

1:02:29

It seems easier. Okay,

1:02:31

so this one's easier, but you have

1:02:33

nothing on it. This one, you've already done 50,000. You

1:02:35

have momentum on it. What makes you think it'll be easier?

1:02:39

Okay. How do we experiment doing the thing that's working?

1:02:42

And this other thing that you want to do,

1:02:44

like keep that on the side and not put

1:02:46

so much pressure to move ship. You have something working. Either

1:02:48

do it yourself or find someone else to do it. And

1:02:52

again, she was very excited to do her Google

1:02:54

slides presentation design consulting firm. Oh,

1:02:56

it's so much easier. And a

1:02:59

lot of times the best experiences are learned, not

1:03:01

through a book. You're not going to learn. You

1:03:03

can only learn to cook so well reading. You have to be in

1:03:05

the kitchen. That's the third metaphor. I promised you I'd

1:03:08

get to three. I got more. You got me

1:03:10

there. And your publishers are saying, uh, did you just tell

1:03:12

people not to buy a book when you're about

1:03:18

to launch your book? You know, my

1:03:20

job is not to sell the book necessarily. My job

1:03:23

is to be proud of what I created. Make sure

1:03:25

it's something people want, which I validated this book on.

1:03:28

And then ultimately like I've done

1:03:30

it time and time again. So I feel like it works. And

1:03:32

then people like Mackenzie have gotten it to work. Doesn't mean there's

1:03:34

not gonna be problems along the way. And then there's a guy

1:03:36

named Pat who got it to work and Jake who's gotten to

1:03:38

work and Rico has gotten to work and LG has gotten to

1:03:40

work. And I know it works. That's why

1:03:42

I feel confident because I see it. And

1:03:45

with Mackenzie, if she wants to go do this other thing, I'm going to

1:03:48

be there to support her. And ideally I'm like,

1:03:50

do this consulting thing fast so you can come back to

1:03:52

the thing that's working. And those are

1:03:54

coming back to the Eamon principle. The

1:03:56

best business is the one that works. I'm

1:03:59

going to call out the Eamon. principle from now on. So you

1:04:01

just keep doing it over and over and over and

1:04:03

over. And the more

1:04:05

boring your success is, that means it's working. So

1:04:08

don't get bored of the success. Embrace it or

1:04:10

find some way to enjoy it or find someone else who will. I

1:04:13

suspect Mackenzie is a creative person and

1:04:16

doing the same thing month after month,

1:04:18

year after year is kind

1:04:21

of her definition of hell. This

1:04:23

is why creative people have all kinds of problems. Things are

1:04:25

working. I don't want to do it anymore. I want to

1:04:27

do something different. So you want to run away

1:04:29

from money and success. Is that what you're saying? And

1:04:31

that's the plight that most creative people suffer from.

1:04:35

That's a human problem. Is it? Yeah,

1:04:38

that's why we don't, I don't know if I already said this,

1:04:40

but that's why we don't watch the same Netflix movie over and

1:04:42

over. Like how many times you watch the same Netflix show?

1:04:46

Not often, but there are some movies I watch like

1:04:48

a lot on repeat. What's

1:04:51

an example? Like The Matrix, Blade

1:04:53

Runner, Dune. But

1:04:56

yeah, in general, we're looking for another movie. But

1:04:59

the majority of your consumption of content is probably

1:05:01

new stuff. You're not watching the same YouTube video

1:05:03

that really helped you over

1:05:05

and over and over again. But

1:05:08

that's also really interesting about, all right, well, how do we apply that

1:05:10

in our own business? How can you maybe

1:05:12

twist it up a bit? How can maybe, hey,

1:05:14

what parts of the business do you actually want to

1:05:16

spend all day doing? Because the reality, Chris, is for

1:05:18

everyone out there, if you reflect on your life, there's

1:05:20

something that you have stuck with. What

1:05:23

was it about that that worked? Teeth brushing,

1:05:25

easy example. You're like, well,

1:05:27

I like my teeth smelling good. And you got to do twice a day, by

1:05:29

the way. You're not doing twice. It's gross. Why

1:05:32

do you do twice a day? I don't know, because I did it in the mornings

1:05:34

and I like to smell my teeth. And okay, well,

1:05:36

what about that? Can we copy for your business? Well,

1:05:39

my business, I really like making for Mary Macri

1:05:41

her website. I just like making the cards. I

1:05:43

don't want it fulfillment. Awesome.

1:05:46

Oh, I really want to be on more shows or I

1:05:48

want to go to great. This

1:05:51

is coming back to the original question. Okay, let's just

1:05:53

spend that all freaking week doing that. And

1:05:56

you could find someone to do fulfillment. You could

1:05:58

find someone to do your website design. And

1:06:00

the thing that was crazy looking at her website,

1:06:03

coming back on it, is that I can tell she's not focused on

1:06:05

it. Because there's so much cool

1:06:08

opportunities that I can tell she's not thinking about it every

1:06:10

day. She's thinking about all these

1:06:12

other things. And that's something that she'll have to

1:06:14

experience and learn for herself, which is hopefully quick.

1:06:18

And then I do think she'll come back and

1:06:20

be like, wow, look, Hallmark and American Reading Cards

1:06:22

are worth nine figures or 10-figure businesses. Reading

1:06:25

Cards can be a giant business. And by the way, it could be

1:06:27

enough for her to make grocery money. It could

1:06:29

be enough to her to be a thousandaire for her to live

1:06:31

whatever life she wants. And

1:06:33

I just find if you find something people are excited about,

1:06:36

figure a way that you can make it sustainable. Like I

1:06:38

aim for 10 years. And

1:06:40

when you think in that time span, one, if it fails

1:06:42

right away, you're also kind of okay. You're

1:06:44

like, it didn't work. That's okay. I'm doing it

1:06:46

for 10 years. Like right now, my YouTube channel is like a lot

1:06:48

of people quit and we're testing people out and stuff. But I'm thinking,

1:06:50

you know what, I'm gonna do this 10 years. It's okay if one

1:06:52

month's not perfect. And for

1:06:56

herself, I think when she dials into that business,

1:06:58

it's like, wow, there's a lot more things I

1:07:00

could fix on this website. I

1:07:03

think it's lost its new car smell appeal.

1:07:05

And now they want to get a new car. But

1:07:08

I'm gonna mix metaphors with you. If

1:07:10

you're in a home, you get bored. You

1:07:13

get bored of the home. You don't just tear

1:07:15

the home down and move. You

1:07:17

give a new coat of paint. You

1:07:19

rearrange the furniture. You put some plants.

1:07:21

You change the core. You upgrade your

1:07:23

furniture. And that's how you make the

1:07:25

value to your home. You do the

1:07:28

landscaping stuff and you might add an

1:07:30

extension or something or an ADU. You

1:07:32

might do that, right? That's

1:07:35

more the metaphor. Like you have a business

1:07:37

idea. It's working. Don't abandon it. Just

1:07:40

like a relationship. If you have a good woman or a good

1:07:42

man, like you're not trying to break it up. You're like,

1:07:45

how do I get more of this? How

1:07:47

do I go deeper with this? All right, I need to leave

1:07:49

the house. Like go on vacation for a weekend and you come

1:07:51

back and you're like, damn. Like

1:07:53

I don't know, I love my house. I'm here every day thinking

1:07:55

like, I can't believe I get to live here. And that's how

1:07:57

it can be for your work as well. Like why spend... I

1:08:00

don't know, at least half your life doing something you don't like. That

1:08:02

thing was crazy to me. Yeah. I'm

1:08:05

glad you brought the dating thing back because you

1:08:07

said something at the beginning of a podcast. I'm

1:08:09

like, what? Yeah, if you

1:08:11

want more variety, date one person. And you never

1:08:13

explain what that means because I'm like, what? Oh

1:08:15

my God, I love that. I think it's from

1:08:17

one of these famous women and

1:08:20

psychologists or, you know, here's what's interesting, by

1:08:22

the way. Yeah. There's

1:08:24

like, Benne Brown and Esther Perel. They're the most famous, but

1:08:26

are they actually even the best psychologists?

1:08:30

No, they're the best business marketers

1:08:32

of psychology. Same thing for

1:08:34

all creatives. It's another example of it. They're

1:08:37

very good. But just to

1:08:39

show another example, right? Just because you're good doesn't get

1:08:41

it depends on what you're trying to optimize for. I

1:08:43

think that's a great question. Now

1:08:45

in terms of variety, if you

1:08:47

ever go on dates, like I was single two years ago

1:08:49

and I was dating a lot. And I think what's important

1:08:52

to think about is what is my goal? What

1:08:54

do I really want? And how does my

1:08:57

behavior align to that goal? So I wanted to

1:08:59

be in a relationship. I wanted to be married and have

1:09:01

kids and all that stuff, but I was just hooking up

1:09:03

and like doing dumb dating stuff. So

1:09:05

it was like, I wanted this, but I'm behaving

1:09:07

this. So it's not actually aligning. And

1:09:10

my friend, Dan Andrews from Tropical MBA said

1:09:12

that quote to me and kind of made me

1:09:14

realize when you go on all these dates, you say the same

1:09:16

freaking story over and over. Yeah,

1:09:19

my dad is from here. Yeah, you

1:09:21

know, I'm from San Jose, California. You

1:09:24

know, like all this crappy, boring stuff. And

1:09:26

there's no depth to it. But then

1:09:29

when you're with one person and you go through

1:09:31

hardship, when you're with one person and you

1:09:33

have a flight delay, when you're

1:09:35

with one person and you can finally experience a

1:09:37

lot of it, you can share things that you

1:09:39

never felt comfortable sharing because you didn't really know

1:09:41

the person. It's the ultimate,

1:09:43

I would say having a great partner besides the variety,

1:09:45

because you're really getting to be with some, I

1:09:47

mean, it's like one, it's the ultimate life upgrade. If

1:09:50

you can be optimistic and then work towards

1:09:52

finding someone that really complements

1:09:55

you and accepts you for who you are as well as

1:09:57

ideally you accept yourself. And I would say that's a great

1:09:59

question. that has been one of the game changes for me

1:10:01

in the past two years. So

1:10:03

you find variety in sticking with

1:10:05

one person, but going through different

1:10:07

adventures with that person versus having

1:10:09

a shallow adventure with like 10

1:10:11

or 15 different people. Exactly.

1:10:14

I think when we can, you

1:10:17

know, when everyone is in their lives and maybe they

1:10:19

get a little restless, just pausing,

1:10:23

just pause for one second and be like, Hey,

1:10:25

I'm feeling restless. Okay. What, how come I'm feeling

1:10:27

restless here? And a lot

1:10:29

of times it's maybe cause things are pretty, going pretty damn well. And

1:10:32

we can just take a step back and be like, not

1:10:35

bad, not bad. Chris, not bad. Stephanie, not

1:10:37

bad. Mark. I'm just making up names. Not

1:10:40

bad. No, it's going pretty well. And

1:10:43

just pausing a little bit versus having to react

1:10:45

and then feel like we're going to sabotage it

1:10:47

or can't last. My, one of my

1:10:49

best friends, Tynan, and again, here's another life

1:10:51

upgrade. Just be around optimistic people. I

1:10:54

don't make it more optimistic. He always

1:10:56

says the same line. I texted him this morning. He's

1:10:58

always like, life is so great and it's

1:11:00

going to get better. And that is always hits.

1:11:02

That always hits. That was very optimistic.

1:11:04

Yeah. And I'm like, shut up, dude.

1:11:07

And so it's nice to be around people that are like, no,

1:11:09

dude, it's really good. Actually, like even Tynan, when I was, I

1:11:12

was pretty low, I would say a year ago

1:11:14

today, literally a year ago today, I was pretty low. And

1:11:16

I remember him sitting in my kitchen with me, he flew out

1:11:18

to comfort me. It's nice

1:11:20

to have friends like that. And he's like, dude, just

1:11:22

zoom out of your life. Zoom out, like go

1:11:24

to the skies. Everything's

1:11:26

pretty dope. Like, yeah, this moment might feel a

1:11:28

little sucky, but like zoom out to the clouds.

1:11:31

You've got pinball machines at home, which I do.

1:11:33

I've got Zilla, which is number one rated pinball

1:11:35

machine in the world. I love it. Wow. I've

1:11:37

got like a hot tub. I have

1:11:39

a garage. Right? Like

1:11:41

I have friends that are really, really amazing guys

1:11:43

and a few girls, really a lot of guys,

1:11:46

like you have, you're healthy. You can walk. You're

1:11:48

moderately above average, good looking. Okay.

1:11:51

Yeah. Some things aren't great, but overall pretty damn

1:11:53

great. And having that perspective and

1:11:55

also that support was extremely

1:11:57

helpful. And we all, it's hard to do to all this stuff alone.

1:11:59

So it's nice to have people in your corner. But

1:12:02

that was definitely a beautiful moment with him. You can chat

1:12:04

him out, tynan.com. There we go. I

1:12:07

have to ask you two questions before we go. One

1:12:09

is because of the book. When does the book

1:12:11

drop? And what is the premise of the book? I think I

1:12:14

can infer what the premise of the book is, but I'd rather

1:12:16

have you just say it. What

1:12:20

do you think? The book is called Million

1:12:22

Dollar Weekend. It's available everywhere worldwide where books

1:12:24

are sold, aka amazon.com. Or

1:12:26

buy it in your local bookstore. I think that's super cool.

1:12:28

And I can't wait for people to send me photos. Please

1:12:30

take action. Send photos at Noah Kagan anywhere. I

1:12:33

would love, what do you think it's about, Chris? I

1:12:37

think it's about the principles that you've learned helping

1:12:39

to launch and doing campaigns that have made you

1:12:41

a million dollars on a weekend. And the same

1:12:43

principles can be applied to wherever you're at, whether

1:12:46

you have $12 or $100,000. Yeah,

1:12:50

I would say, have you ever read Marie

1:12:52

Con... So that's exactly right. It will

1:12:54

help anyone make a million dollars. I promise that. If they

1:12:56

follow the formula, they will get it. Have

1:12:59

you ever read Marie Kondo's book, The Magic of

1:13:01

Tying Up? No, but I'm

1:13:03

very familiar with Marie Kondo. Oh,

1:13:05

it's a fire book. It's such a banger. I love

1:13:07

it. Now, I think this book is similar

1:13:09

to that. And that's what I... I try to make it mindset

1:13:11

as well as tactics. And I think most books in business are

1:13:13

either one or the other, and they don't do a good job

1:13:15

combining it. But really what the book does

1:13:18

is how does it help someone realize who they can

1:13:20

become? And in that same time realize

1:13:22

what kind of life they can live. And it's

1:13:24

generally way cooler than they can imagine. And it's

1:13:26

actually available to them. And that's what the book

1:13:28

is about. Because I

1:13:30

know it worked for me and I'm seeing it work for others.

1:13:32

Not just the money. Like the money is... You're

1:13:34

still who you are, but it's finding out who else you can

1:13:36

become. And how, like, wow. It's

1:13:39

definitely special for the people that want to at least

1:13:42

lean in a little bit to some of the things that maybe

1:13:44

they've been afraid of or things they've actually really wanted deep down.

1:13:47

Anything else you want to share? I pulled up

1:13:49

my credit card bill. Oh, yeah,

1:13:52

okay. Tell us about that. And then I have to ask this

1:13:54

one question before we run out of time here. Dun

1:13:57

dun dun, the final question. The final...

1:14:00

All right,

1:14:03

my Peloton membership, 47 bucks. I

1:14:06

bought caviar because I was

1:14:08

like, I guess that's what rich people do. But no, my girlfriend's

1:14:10

pregnant, so she wants salmon roe. So that was $125. My

1:14:16

took my buddy for his birthday clay shooting. That

1:14:18

was 25 bucks for the ammo. Pregnant

1:14:22

clothing. I bought, I tried to get my girl

1:14:24

some super nice thoughtful mom clothes. So

1:14:28

let me just even go through that credit card bill. So mom

1:14:30

clothes are a pain in the butt to get and then the

1:14:32

women grow out of them. So how

1:14:34

come there's not returnable or rentable mom

1:14:36

clothes business idea? Every

1:14:39

business has been done, don't worry about it. Think

1:14:41

about it as a practice and experiment and you're just getting a rep

1:14:43

in because what will happen is you have your

1:14:46

idea for your business, you Google it. Oh,

1:14:48

this one person finally took the idea that I was

1:14:50

going to make me rich. It's like you didn't even

1:14:52

know that idea 10 seconds ago. Don't

1:14:54

worry about them. Just think about as an experiment and

1:14:56

practice doing the process. So you can keep doing it

1:14:59

until you find a thing that works. Most times if

1:15:01

you haven't heard of it, that's an opportunity. So

1:15:03

again, I'm sharing that because a lot of people say, Oh,

1:15:05

well, I've already heard of something like that. I know. But

1:15:08

if you haven't and you don't know about it yet, that means it's your opportunity. The

1:15:12

clay shooting, what I was actually thinking with the

1:15:14

clay shooting was like more guy experiences. Like how

1:15:16

do you have guy trips? So like this clay

1:15:18

shooting in Austin, it was like super cheap. And

1:15:21

it was a really nice thing to do for birthdays. So like how

1:15:23

do you have birthday packages? Like hey,

1:15:25

$100, I'm gonna take care of everything because like you

1:15:27

have to find a place you have to have maybe

1:15:29

food, then you have to have an activity. And it's

1:15:31

not bad, but that's an interesting idea like birthday parties

1:15:33

for guys. Peloton

1:15:36

membership, even kind of a silly one. I'm like, huh,

1:15:38

I don't use that all the time. Could we maybe

1:15:40

have something? Is there something else there where people

1:15:42

can come work out at my house and use my I have a

1:15:44

gym at home? You can use my home gym. I don't know if

1:15:46

I want strangers in my gym, but maybe there's that like Airbnb for

1:15:48

home gyms. Or is there a

1:15:51

way to do other types of monthly fitness memberships?

1:15:54

And again, all this is to find out like

1:15:56

you can start when you start looking for problems,

1:15:58

aka businesses, they're everywhere. And then

1:16:00

when you start actually taking in the now, the one you want to

1:16:02

do, just do the first one on your list, don't

1:16:04

worry. And do it as a practice round. And

1:16:07

this is just me quickly looking at one of my credit cards.

1:16:10

You spitballing those business solutions, I think will spark

1:16:12

a lot of what people are like, okay, he

1:16:14

connected the dots for me. Just out

1:16:16

of curiosity, the five things you just randomly came up with,

1:16:19

which one do you think is most viable? A

1:16:21

lot of times I like to think, what would I be excited to work

1:16:23

on? And then who do I have

1:16:25

in my network? Kind of coming back to the elements we talked

1:16:27

about. I think the mom one is cool, but I don't know.

1:16:30

I think I'd have to hit up friends and be like, who's a mom?

1:16:32

Do you know any moms? I like the guy's

1:16:34

birthday ones. I think that's kind of cool. I

1:16:37

think that would actually be hard to convince people to

1:16:39

pay for birthday plans or pay for birthday events. So

1:16:42

in terms of viability, maybe the, I don't

1:16:44

know, the Airbnb Home memberships in

1:16:48

terms of viability. Again, I think they're all viable. I think you

1:16:51

have to go and talk to customers to find the truth. I

1:16:54

really think all of them are actually really interesting. What

1:16:57

I want to do is either the guy's birthday or maybe the Home

1:16:59

Gin stuff. I would more likely validate that. Got

1:17:02

it. Things that appeal to you, things that you think, hey,

1:17:04

I could use this. Why not

1:17:06

be excited? Then when you're asking someone to be a customer,

1:17:08

you're not asking them. I've never thought

1:17:10

I was going to ask. I think it was a duty.

1:17:13

And I'm excited. I'm like, hey, I think this is really going to help you

1:17:15

with what's going on in your life. Okay, we're

1:17:17

almost out of time. I have to ask you

1:17:20

this question here. I'm on your YouTube channel.

1:17:23

It's like, what multi-millionaire entrepreneurs running an

1:17:25

$80 million company, the one that I

1:17:27

know about, is still

1:17:30

on YouTube making videos? This is kind of fascinating.

1:17:32

You have over a million subscribers on YouTube. And

1:17:34

then I watch a series of videos where it's

1:17:36

like asking millionaires how to make a million dollars.

1:17:40

This is a good idea for people who are

1:17:42

poor. Like, there's a

1:17:44

guy on the street that's just curious. But

1:17:46

you're actually, you're a millionaire yourself.

1:17:48

I'm rich. Yeah, exactly.

1:17:52

So what's the... And I don't think rich

1:17:54

is a rude thing. It's just like, I'm literally

1:17:56

a multimillionaire, which my safety lately has become more

1:17:58

of a concern for our family. I

1:18:02

think what's interesting about a lot of these YouTubers is there's this

1:18:04

is this is a business opportunity and it still blows my mind

1:18:07

On YouTube you can make up any title you want and

1:18:10

I think there's so many fraudsters out

1:18:12

there and hucksters and charlatans It's unbelievable

1:18:15

like I'm worth a hundred million dollars from what?

1:18:17

Oh You'll run

1:18:19

out you have a cool business where? They

1:18:23

drive me crazy literally. Yeah now in

1:18:26

terms of YouTube for myself I've been doing

1:18:28

content online since 2000 before you're

1:18:30

born Chris. I like it. I like

1:18:32

it. I love it I love getting attention.

1:18:35

I love my ego getting

1:18:37

juiced. I love helping people. I love replying the comments.

1:18:39

I like being creative It's fun

1:18:42

Helps app sumo with my brandy name out there people are like

1:18:44

who's this no okay guy? I kind of see my I like

1:18:46

him and then I talk about up sumo and then

1:18:48

they go over to the website and check out I've seen oh Now

1:18:51

in terms of some of the content we've done

1:18:53

it was you know law of 100 Which

1:18:55

is like we tried a lot of content stuck with a

1:18:57

hundred pieces and finally towards the end of that One

1:19:00

of the videos did really well, which is this knocking

1:19:02

on doors asking millionaires how they got million dollars advice

1:19:05

for you me I think the thing for content

1:19:07

in general out there is for us

1:19:10

to think about What is our unique

1:19:12

thing that others can't copy because now there's

1:19:14

a lot of kids being like hey? Knock

1:19:16

on doors and their own most of these are fake. They're very

1:19:18

fake I think if you have seen in debt actually legit because

1:19:20

when you knock on someone's door. They don't want to answer You

1:19:23

say yours are legit Yeah, you

1:19:25

see me get rejected a lot That's part of the fun of

1:19:27

the video except the Newport Beach those people are extremely friendly when

1:19:29

I knocked on their doors I Like

1:19:31

doing it. I think what I've noticed with YouTube

1:19:33

specifically you have to get started today With

1:19:36

that whatever platform only do one platform if you

1:19:38

want to win on social win one Everyone's trying

1:19:40

to win many just do one well. I want

1:19:42

to do book fine. Don't win. It's okay. I

1:19:44

don't care Doesn't

1:19:47

change my life I just found that if I only

1:19:49

did YouTube it worked really well and after YouTube and

1:19:51

our System of doing these videos was working consistently Then

1:19:54

we now start doing you know maybe some Twitter and some of

1:19:56

these other stuff and then think about as

1:19:59

you're doing it What's the unique thing for you? No

1:20:02

one else can be Christo. Thankfully.

1:20:04

Right? And there's a lot of videos now where

1:20:06

it's like, let's do a podcast video, which is

1:20:08

fine, but how do you make yours unique? But

1:20:12

you have to get started and get it going and then

1:20:14

evolve to that place. But

1:20:16

I think people will spend so much time trying to prepare to

1:20:18

be ready for that. But it's really getting it

1:20:20

going, seeing if there's any validation on it. I put out my

1:20:22

first video with my phone. I'm not

1:20:24

selling these people expensive courses or super

1:20:27

expensive books. It's like, yeah,

1:20:29

this book is a cool thing that I'm proud of. I wish I

1:20:31

had and I could share it. The other thing I would say with

1:20:34

YouTube, my last video has 12,000 views. So

1:20:38

when you're working on someone else's platform, they are

1:20:40

controlling your audience. So get an

1:20:43

email list, ConvertKit, I use SendFox, you

1:20:45

can use MailChimp. Have

1:20:47

an email list so you can communicate directly with your audience. Because

1:20:49

now with YouTube, I'm at their mercy to have

1:20:52

to make content to be able to talk to

1:20:54

the people that I've earned their attention over the

1:20:56

past few years. Right. My

1:20:59

guest has been Noah Kagan. He's the CEO

1:21:01

and founder of AppSumo, which I love, by

1:21:03

the way, because who doesn't like a deal

1:21:05

on software and things that you use? Oftentimes

1:21:07

when I miss out on the deal, I'm

1:21:09

like, God, I pay more for

1:21:11

less right now, which is ridiculous. So that's

1:21:14

clearly a value delivery

1:21:16

vehicle for whoever is able to

1:21:18

grab these deals. But his

1:21:20

book, by the time you hear this podcast or

1:21:22

see this, it'll have dropped. It's

1:21:24

called Million Dollar Weekend. He's given us a lot

1:21:26

of really practical things, things for me to think

1:21:28

about. And I'm just saying this, as

1:21:31

a person who teaches and coaches other people, I'm taking

1:21:33

things from this conversation and we want to turn around

1:21:35

and say, hey, what are

1:21:37

things are you trying to avoid or your clients trying

1:21:39

to avoid? Those are business opportunities for you. I mean,

1:21:41

there are many more nuggets from the episode and you'll

1:21:44

have to watch the entire thing. If you want to

1:21:46

grab it all, you may be like me and filled

1:21:48

up two pages of notes here. That's what I've done.

1:21:50

Wow. It's been a pleasure talking to you. Thank you

1:21:52

for doing this with us. Thank you

1:21:55

for being you and doing your work, man. I'm

1:21:58

Noah Kagan. You're listening. to the future. Thanks

1:22:05

for joining us. If you

1:22:07

haven't already, subscribe to our show on

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The Fusion podcast is hosted by Christa.

1:22:19

Thank you to Anthony Barrow for editing

1:22:22

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