0:07

What are you rummaging around in your bag for, please? For

0:10

my notebook. Oh, you have notes.

0:13

Watch out. Watch out, John

0:15

Stanez, and you're in big trouble now. When the

0:18

notebook comes off, you'll be prepared. I

0:20

always have a notebook. Before

0:22

you just drink, no, please. I

0:25

need to just kill this thing. There

0:28

we go. Also because the last time you

0:30

guys were... I

0:33

should have bought my mask, because the last time I

0:35

was on your show, my facial expressions got policed. What

0:38

happened with your facial expressions last time? They got

0:40

policed on your shirt. Jesus, I remember that. That

0:43

was... Yeah, because the last time I left you people

0:45

alone, you almost burnt down for dance. Well,

0:47

I haven't eaten Nanda since then. You haven't?

0:50

No. I'm so proud of you. Thank

0:53

you. All right, so, Liffin, here he is,

0:55

the official leader of the opposition, John

0:57

Stanez, and you've been all over the news this week.

1:00

It's appropriate to have you in now

1:03

more than ever, but it's always

1:05

appropriate to talk to someone who is

1:07

contesting these elections, so close to the

1:09

elections. And I

1:11

know that there are lots of people already gearing

1:13

up for a fight with you in the comments section, but you're

1:16

used to that. And there are a lot of people who are

1:18

already standing up for you, even though

1:20

you haven't said anything that requires defense at

1:22

this point. How's the campaign going

1:24

for starters? I see loads

1:26

of advertising all over the place.

1:28

Lots of posters, there's big competition.

1:30

Apparently, how street polls

1:33

are groaning. Yes, good.

1:35

Under the weight of DA posters. Yeah,

1:39

well, look, I think it's going very well. I'm very comfortable where

1:41

we're at in this stage of the campaign.

1:43

We arrived roughly about 40 days out now. And

1:46

I think we've put in the work over the last two

1:48

years to get to where we

1:50

are today. Certainly, all credible polling showing

1:53

that we're going to a growth election. I don't

1:55

think any serious analyst is talking

1:57

about a post-29 May future. that

2:00

doesn't have the DA playing a central role in it.

2:02

So I think that's a good place you want to

2:04

be at the party. So delighted

2:06

that my party is doing well in the

2:09

polling. We certainly not like

2:11

a margin of error party. And I

2:13

think we're looking forward to good growth

2:15

in this election and I'm excited about

2:17

that. What are your exit polls saying?

2:20

Well, they've got a- Your internal. Well, the internal ones,

2:22

I mean, obviously you don't like to share your

2:24

internal polling too widely, but it's

2:26

very much in line with the large

2:29

mainstream polls that have been coming

2:31

out from Brenter's Social Research Foundation, Victory

2:34

Research and others that show us- The ones that people

2:36

that don't like the DA say are rubbish. Yes,

2:39

of course. You know, if you- Yeah,

2:41

but they also don't like Ipsos and they

2:43

say that's rubbish. Yeah, well, I mean, I

2:46

don't say Ipsos is rubbish. Nate Silver and

2:48

his ratings agency that rates

2:50

polls internationally have downgraded them to

2:53

B minus. All right, everybody calm

2:55

down. Two of

2:57

my five Xs. All right. First

3:00

of all, I have to ask you about the

3:02

squabbling that's been going on between you guys and

3:04

Ryze and Zansi. I mean, here I was thinking

3:06

Songhezo Zibi was a soft core guy. Meanwhile,

3:09

when the gloves come off, he can be quite aggressive.

3:13

And you have not shied away from that conflict

3:15

to the point where I've heard a really

3:19

strong DA supporter say to me, you know,

3:21

I liked John until he started picking a fight with

3:23

Songhezo Zibi. So what do you have to say about-

3:26

I have one line in a speech two Sundays ago. And

3:29

the- I'm just reporting. And the

3:31

thin skin of Mr. Zibi and his party

3:33

has been exposed. I pointed

3:35

out a simple matter that in the

3:38

Western Cape, you open

3:40

the door for the ANC and the EFF

3:42

if you split the opposition. And it's not

3:44

the Kafar that they're trying to portray it

3:46

as, it's portrayed already in

3:48

Nazna. It's already happened in Beaufort

3:50

West. It's already happened now in

3:52

Plettenberg Bay where you vote for

3:55

smaller parties. You split the vote,

3:57

you let the ANC and EFF in. I

3:59

think it's a sad- I had a tree warning.

4:01

Why they got touched on this studio

4:03

was when I pointed out that they

4:05

support expropriation without compensation, which I think

4:08

could be a disaster for the country.

4:10

And yesterday I was in a debate with Mr. Zebi,

4:13

which will be airing next week. He

4:15

doubled down on expropriation without compensation. He

4:17

supports race quotas. He supports B. I

4:19

just made the point, well, you're not

4:21

much different from the ANC if those

4:24

are the policies you're going to be

4:26

in. But I'm not interested in fighting

4:28

with a margin of error party. My

4:30

main fight, and sort of the

4:32

bulk of it, every other line of every

4:34

speech I've made for the last few weeks

4:37

has been taking on the ANC because that's

4:39

the enemy. There's no use building an opposition

4:41

to the opposition in South Africa. We

4:43

should be working together to unseat the

4:45

ANC because that is the problem. But

4:48

you know, you speak with the folk

4:50

tongue because on the one side you

4:52

say you're working on taking down the

4:54

ANC. And again, very widely

4:56

reported. Your interview

4:58

on the Daily Maverick where you were talking

5:00

about actually a coalition. Hey, haven't the

5:03

Daily Maverick closed doors? And

5:06

I was quite fascinated. I was going

5:08

to make a financial contribution if they canceled

5:10

Rebecca Davis' comments. I

5:14

was quite fascinated to hear

5:16

you say that, that you would be

5:18

actually open, that that is the best

5:20

kind of answer post-29.

5:23

No, that's definitely not the best type of answer. And

5:25

I think for me he was going, maybe replay with

5:27

the Daily Maverick at the gathering. Not

5:32

at the gathering. So you sat with the journalists and...

5:34

No, I didn't sit with the journalists at the Daily

5:36

Maverick. So what were you saying

5:38

about the ANC working with the ANC? I

5:41

was asked a question about what's going to

5:43

happen after the election. I made the point

5:45

that my sole focus for the next couple

5:47

of weeks into the election is to get

5:49

the multi-party charter over the 50% plus one

5:51

run. That's why

5:54

we formed the charter. The best case scenario

5:56

for South Africa is that we get the

5:58

ANC out of government because... We're

6:00

not going to change anything with the same people who've got

6:02

us into the mess, sitting around

6:04

the cabinet table in the union buildings.

6:06

We've got to change who's sitting there.

6:08

So that's why the multi-party

6:10

charter has been working for the last year

6:13

to come up with joint

6:15

policies, which we've been releasing on a

6:17

two-weekly basis now, putting an alternative offer

6:20

on the table for South Africans, 11

6:23

parties putting the differences aside and working to achieve

6:25

that. That's the best case scenario for South Africa.

6:27

I was asked what would happen after the election.

6:29

I said, well, there's a lot of things that

6:31

could happen, but we can sit all day and

6:34

speculate about what this could be. But

6:36

we won't know until the voters have put the

6:38

cards on the table after the election.

6:40

And I said, there may well be a chance that

6:43

the NPC will have to go back to

6:46

the drawing board and look at the results

6:48

and choose the least worst option going forward.

6:50

I don't think there's anything controversial about that,

6:52

going full out to get a majority. But

6:54

if it doesn't work, we've got to have

6:57

full back positions. There's a

6:59

number of permutations or scenarios

7:02

that could develop. But these remain

7:04

hypothetical at this stage because we

7:06

don't know what's going to happen on the 29th of May. Why

7:09

don't you believe that you could have

7:12

an outright majority after 20 years of the year?

7:14

Well, because I think it would be the only

7:16

party in the world. I

7:19

think it's gone from 20 percent in 2019 to 50

7:21

percent in 2024. I

7:27

think that would be a historical

7:30

leap for any party. What I can say

7:32

is the DA has consistently grown since 94.

7:35

It started at 1.7 percent. We're

7:37

now in the last local government elections, got

7:39

just a little 22 percent.

7:41

We're a party that's growing and we

7:44

will continue to grow. And it actually

7:46

it receded a little bit. It receded

7:48

a little bit in 2019 when the

7:50

DA lost its way and started trying

7:52

to become ANC LUT and start

7:55

to prevaricate on some of the

7:57

core values and principles. But we're back on track.

8:00

I think that's why voters are showing confidence

8:02

now in a DA that is sure about

8:04

who we are, sure about what

8:06

we want for the country, but most importantly,

8:08

doesn't just talk the talk. We're walking the

8:11

walk where we govern, and that's the unique

8:13

selling proposition. So who are

8:15

you? For our listeners, who is

8:18

the DA? The Democratic Alliance is

8:20

a party that is rooted

8:22

in a liberal philosophy that believes in

8:24

the premise of the individual, which believes

8:26

that government should focus on doing what

8:28

government must do in doing it well,

8:31

but that government should stay out of

8:33

areas where the private sector and individuals

8:35

can make decisions that are

8:37

better suited for their lives. We

8:40

believe not in the clunking fist of state.

8:42

We believe in unleashing and unlocking the

8:44

power of entrepreneurs and innovators.

8:47

And to encourage that, we believe fundamentally

8:49

in the key values that underpin any

8:51

liberal democracy in the world, property rights,

8:53

respect for the rule of law and

8:55

the constitution, civil market

8:57

economy, making sure that we build a

9:00

capable state free of catered deployments and

9:02

corruption, and a laser-like focus on lifting

9:04

people out of poverty and into opportunity.

9:06

That's who we are. That's

9:09

what our policy suite is aimed at doing. And

9:12

we, I think, are proving that we can

9:14

walk that walk where we are given

9:16

the opportunity to govern. And what do

9:18

you think it is that makes South Africans not resonate with

9:20

us? That only 20% are

9:22

voting for us? I

9:24

think about 20% is a significant number of

9:26

votes. If you look at some of the

9:29

majority parties, the leading parties in countries around

9:31

the world, they're all in the 20s. My

9:34

question is, what do you think it

9:36

is that does not resonate with South

9:38

Africans, that they are not voting for you?

9:40

Well, I don't know, but you'd have to ask those

9:43

voters. But

9:46

22% of South African voters believe

9:48

that the DA is their political home

9:51

and are voting for us consistently

9:53

in elections. The people of

9:55

the Western Cape, the city of Cape

9:57

Town, Midwall municipality, Wungeni municipality in Quasiputil,

10:00

These are all people who put face on the DA.

10:02

There may be people who think that

10:04

having a big clunking state that controls every

10:06

aspect of your life is a good thing.

10:09

I disagree. I think it's a bad thing.

10:12

There may be some people who think that

10:14

keeping fat cat greedy politicians in office where

10:16

they continue to manipulate the people of South

10:18

Africa is a good thing. I happen to

10:21

not think that's a good thing and that's

10:23

why we're working towards it. I want to

10:25

try and steel man the argument of those

10:27

people who've criticized the multi-party charter. I

10:31

don't know whether I'm all

10:33

that keen on everybody, even

10:35

if it's colluding before in order to collude after

10:39

coming to these arrangements, whatever the case may be.

10:41

I've heard lots of people who would be and

10:44

there's a lot of bickering in the opposition. There's

10:46

a lot of grandstanding and

10:49

this is wrong and that's wrong. A

10:51

lot of people have accused you personally

10:53

and then the DA more generally of

10:56

being very arrogant. I mean

10:58

this is a South African

11:00

reality that people don't

11:02

like, the gorilla in the room

11:04

and in opposition politics you're the gorilla in the room.

11:07

So I'm trying to… That was also what

11:09

collapsed the Joburg. No, no, that's not what

11:11

collapsed Joburg. Collapsed

11:14

Joburg was the treachery of the Patriotic

11:16

Alliance who was shuttling between the

11:19

coalition government there and the ANC trying to

11:21

get the fastest check. That's

11:24

what collapsed the government and eventually out

11:26

of principle we said we're not

11:28

going to be held to the extortionism

11:30

of Gates and Mckenzie and the

11:32

PA who have no interest in good

11:35

governance, who only want to be able to get

11:37

into position for tenders in contrast. Nothing to do

11:39

with the arrogance of the DA. You have to

11:41

be principled. This

11:43

is what they say, right? And you know this, this

11:46

is not news to you. So Gayton was on

11:48

the show not so long ago. He said the DA is so arrogant I can't

11:50

work with him. He brought

11:52

up Hillen. There's always this shadow

11:54

DA that operates. Are you really

11:56

the leader? That kind of thing.

12:00

about how all these other people in the

12:02

federal, what is your thing called the federal

12:04

executive? Federal executive like the ANC has an

12:06

enemy fee like Gates and Aziz, the EU

12:08

Fair Command Council. I'm

12:10

just asking, is there any kind of shadow

12:12

control? Are there people you have to check

12:14

with before you mandate this? No, not at

12:16

all. But I'm a democratically elected leader and

12:18

that is the 82% of

12:21

the Democratic alliances, Federal Congress, the

12:23

party elected me to lead them.

12:27

I lead the party, but our party

12:29

constitution in line with liberalism

12:31

doesn't allow unfettered power to lie on

12:33

the hand of an individual. We believe

12:35

in the dissolution of power to prevent

12:38

abuse of it. So we do the

12:40

federal executive, which is made up of

12:42

the non-provincial leaders, it's made up of

12:44

the chairs, of all of the leaders,

12:47

of all of the ancillary bodies. It's

12:50

made up of representatives from our counselors,

12:52

our MPOs, our MPs, and

12:54

that is the board of

12:56

the DA essentially and that's how it operates.

12:59

It's very different to these parties that

13:01

I now see, even name the party

13:03

after the leader. That's very odd. Parties

13:06

that don't have internal congresses. Why

13:09

is nobody asking some of these parties, why

13:12

have you never had an internal congress? I've been

13:14

through three already. Pummy does and she also asks

13:16

them about succession plans and some of them just

13:18

don't have any. The succession

13:20

plan is just wait till I die and

13:22

we'll figure it out. The democratic

13:25

infrastructure's point I'm making is far

13:27

better. It provides checks and balances

13:30

and it ensures that... Your answer is acceptable.

13:34

Another thing, these other parties

13:36

say that you guys

13:39

are, you bully them. That basically you

13:41

say our way or the highway. It's

13:43

not a multi-party charter, it's just the

13:45

DA corralling everyone else to their whims

13:47

and fancies. That's not true and if

13:49

you look at the history of the

13:51

Johannesburg Coalition, there were four

13:54

major concessions that were

13:56

made in that coalition to

13:58

keep it on track. All four

14:01

of those concessions came from the democratic alliance.

14:04

But we drew the line in the sand when

14:06

the patriotic alliance insisted on

14:09

a firstly counter-determined saying, Gaethan should be the

14:12

mayor, which we completely

14:14

rejected. And secondly, that

14:16

they get control of the portfolios

14:19

where the Johannesburg markets

14:21

are, which is very cash-rich, and

14:24

also the housing agency, the

14:27

rental stock for the municipalities. We

14:29

didn't want to give control there

14:31

because we are very concerned

14:34

at the capture and the

14:36

abuse of that particular office. And

14:39

I think that's what's happening in Joeburg now, shows

14:41

you that our fears were well-founded. There

14:44

is widespread corruption in that administration

14:46

taking place in those portfolios.

14:49

And I'm sorry, we learned a very

14:51

important lesson in 2016 in

14:53

the coalition, however you term it, with

14:55

the EFF, that you cannot

14:57

be in coalition with people who do

14:59

not share the same basic values and principles.

15:02

Otherwise, you end up compromising yourself

15:04

and end up being worse than

15:06

what you've reported. Sorry,

15:09

Poms, to Gaethan's credit, he has said all he

15:11

wants is power. He's been very kind. He has

15:13

been very clear about it. He said, I want

15:15

power. I'll make friends with whoever I have. So

15:17

why do when I say I don't want power

15:19

to be principled, I'm the arrogant one. That doesn't

15:21

make much sense to me. Well,

15:24

although, so exactly what you say you

15:26

were trying to prevent,

15:28

you would rather walk away and watch

15:31

it all fall down. Isn't that the point? The

15:34

point of politics is

15:36

really about how you horse trade to be

15:38

able to get what

15:40

you need, what you want happen.

15:44

So you didn't get what you wanted and everything you'd

15:46

rather walk away. No, of course you

15:48

want to try and get the best deal that you can,

15:51

but not at all costs. There's only

15:53

one thing worse than not having power, and

15:55

that's having power and governing badly and governing

15:57

in a way that is exactly the same.

16:00

the same as what you've told voters you're

16:02

seeking to replace. And that's exactly what happened

16:04

to the DA in 2016. And

16:06

we're still trying to recover from the damage

16:08

that was done in that coalition when a

16:10

blind eye was turned to chronic

16:12

land invasions by the EFF in

16:14

Linasia and other parts of the city,

16:17

where people are still very angry with the

16:19

DA because they expected us to stand up

16:21

for their property rights. And

16:24

in order to keep a coalition on the track, the

16:26

leadership at that time decided it would be a good

16:28

idea just to appease the EFF. And

16:31

we're still bearing the scars of that

16:33

in places like Linasia, as I said.

16:35

So what will stop

16:37

any of that happening within the

16:39

NPC? I think when we look

16:41

back at some of the

16:43

parties, whether it's independent Democrats, whether it's

16:46

Akang, with Mantella,

16:48

those organizations came in

16:50

with the DA and those organizations

16:52

no longer exist. Well,

16:54

let me say there's a very big difference. What is the DA doing

16:56

to these people? The

17:00

very big difference is that it's

17:02

precisely the learnings from what

17:04

happened at local government elections after those

17:07

elections and what

17:09

has happened at local government level since

17:11

then that made

17:14

me realize that the urgency in April last year for

17:16

the opposition to get together, what

17:19

happened in the last local government elections, we all

17:21

went in merrily into the election. No one had

17:23

a plan. Suddenly you've defeated

17:25

the ANC's majority, and now you've got

17:27

to form a government in 14 days.

17:29

There's not enough time to put together

17:31

a solid principle-based agreement, and that's the

17:33

difference of the NPC. In

17:36

April last year, I said let's get together as

17:38

your position. Everybody at the time said it would

17:40

never happen. Two months later,

17:42

we were all sitting at Emper's Palace, and

17:45

we merged with an agreement, eight parties at the

17:47

time, growing to 11. These

17:49

are values and principles. This is what we hope

17:51

to achieve in government, and this is how we

17:53

will embark upon power sharing

17:55

within this particular governance arrangement.

17:58

Far more organized and cohesive. going

18:01

into the election to prevent precisely the

18:03

type of chaotic horse trading that you

18:05

see taking place in a pressure cooker

18:08

environment where you've got 14 days

18:10

only to form something. Do

18:13

you agree, because I remember Helen used to

18:15

be a big proponent of this, that the good

18:17

ANC will be the right coalition partners along

18:19

the way? Do you think that's all the character?

18:21

I don't know. I'm still waiting to be

18:23

shown the good ANC. Okay. No, but clearly then

18:26

there isn't a good ANC. In your opinion,

18:28

they can't be the best

18:31

thing for the ANC. I don't

18:33

always, you know, I've spent 22 years

18:35

of my life acting in the ANC's

18:37

worst interest. But I think the

18:39

best thing for the ANC actually would to be

18:41

spend some time in the opposition benches. I

18:44

think if you look at healthy democracies around

18:46

the world, parties come into power,

18:48

they're then relegated to the opposition

18:51

benches. It gives them an opportunity

18:53

to renew their personalities, renew the

18:56

policies, etc. The conservatives in Britain are

18:58

about to spend, I think, a

19:01

good two terms of parliament on the opposition

19:03

benches. They've been in power for the last

19:05

12 years. Make some soft. Yeah.

19:08

And I think being in

19:10

opposition forces you to rethink. And I've

19:12

said a million times that there's a

19:14

double standard that we apply to the

19:17

DA in this country. We expect

19:19

you guys to get

19:21

it right every time. And we

19:23

don't expect that from the ruling party

19:25

because they get given rounds of applause

19:27

when they open a tap. Gareth,

19:30

I'm very happy to be held to the

19:32

highest standard because I, and please continue to

19:34

do so because I think

19:36

if we expect to be held

19:38

to the same standards as ANC, I think that's

19:41

a very low bar. And I think South Africans

19:43

deserve better. Fair enough. One other quick thing I

19:45

want to dispense with because it's always at the

19:47

back of everyone's mind is this is the race

19:49

question in the DA. The fact that you as

19:52

the leader are a white man, people

19:55

say it's a white party. This is the

19:57

perception, regardless of how hard you may have

19:59

worked. how hard previous party leaders might

20:01

have worked and the federal executive might be working

20:03

and no matter how many people you put in

20:05

in various places, it's always going to be the

20:07

perception that the DA is a white party. And

20:10

I asked someone a question last night for me, I think you were

20:12

there. I said, look, at

20:14

a granular level, let's do a

20:17

two-bit resolution map of South African

20:19

politics. So if

20:21

you're a white party, the ANC is a black

20:23

party, MK is a black party, the EFF is

20:26

a black party, BOSA

20:28

is a black party, Action

20:30

Essay is a black party. I think you

20:32

get where I'm going. So even if you were

20:35

by that very low resolution to be a white

20:37

party, then it maps roughly

20:39

with South Africa's demographics anyway. In fact, it

20:41

shows that you've got more than the

20:44

white support in any case. And

20:47

if that were as bad as it got, so what?

20:50

Like there are all these other parties, there are always going to

20:52

be black people who want to vote for the white party, white

20:54

people who want to vote for the black party, but that's at

20:56

a much higher resolution. Why

20:59

are we still stuck on this? I don't know. And

21:01

it's very frustrating to me, Gareth. I

21:03

will say this though, if the DA was a white party, we'd

21:05

be sitting at 6% in the polls. That's

21:09

if every single white person voted for us, we'd

21:11

be sitting at 6%. We're

21:14

not. We're sitting in the low 20s and hope

21:16

to obviously grow on that. A lot of those

21:18

whites are very disloyal. The

21:21

Social Research Foundation actually did some incredibly

21:23

good polling last year on

21:25

party political support. And I

21:27

think it's very instructive. Is that while

21:29

the party bases of and voters of

21:32

parties to the left and right of

21:34

us are monochromatic, the DA draws its

21:36

voter base from roughly a third. Third

21:38

white, third black, and a third

21:40

colored and Indian. So we

21:43

have our fathermost diverse support base. But just look

21:45

at the party. Yes, I'm a white South African.

21:47

I can't change that. You know there's no button

21:49

on the way out that you can self-select how

21:52

you come out. I can't change

21:54

that. But I can get up every single

21:56

day and do my best to fight for this country that

21:58

I love. They're going to

22:00

scare people from politics

22:03

based on the color of their skin. Well, then

22:05

we're right back in 1948 again. They're

22:08

going to say, well, only black people can do politics

22:10

in South Africa. I think that would be a huge

22:12

mistake. I think people have got a contribution to make,

22:15

and I would

22:17

hope that we've moved beyond that just as I

22:20

don't think anybody criticizes Rishi Sinak happens

22:22

to be part of a minority in

22:24

the UK, that he's

22:26

prime minister of either the Conservative Party. I don't think that

22:29

anybody was hung up on the

22:31

fact that Barack Obama was part of

22:33

a minority in his country, even

22:35

though he was part of a minority group

22:37

in that particular country. I think people should

22:39

be judged on how they

22:41

contribute and how they serve. Helen

22:43

Sussman showed us very well that

22:46

you don't have to be a black political prisoner on

22:48

Robin Island to stand up for black political prisoners on

22:50

Robin Island. Just as I don't

22:52

have to be a poor, marginalized black

22:54

South African to stand up every day

22:56

and fight for their rights and for

22:58

a better deal for them in a

23:00

country that has let them down badly.

23:03

And that's what my work focuses on. I

23:05

can't change my color, but I

23:07

can change the country, and that's my

23:09

focus. And what is your vision for

23:12

this country? What is

23:14

your vision for this country in the next

23:16

five years? And what is your vision for

23:18

this country in a hundred years?

23:20

Well, for the next five years, the vision

23:23

is to get these basic things right. And

23:25

that's why a manifesto focuses on just seven

23:27

things. Your January political manifest has come with

23:29

a long laundry list of things that

23:32

we want to achieve with everybody's pet project. We've

23:35

made the seven key things that we have

23:37

to get right in the next five years

23:39

to make anything else on a longer list

23:42

possible. Fixing load shedding and water shedding, making

23:44

sure we reject the criminal system

23:46

to make sure that we can

23:48

keep people safe, making sure

23:51

that we are able to lift 6

23:53

million people out of poverty. It's not

23:55

sustainable to live in a country with

23:57

30 million people, 99.7 million.

24:00

97% of you more black are trapped

24:02

below the poverty line in the country.

24:04

We have to build a capable state

24:06

that can deliver in a

24:08

way that serves people and not

24:10

politicians. We need to absolutely focus

24:13

on fixing our education system over

24:15

the next five years so that young children

24:18

have a chance in a very changed world

24:20

of work. The reality is you're

24:22

not competing anymore with fellow citizens and citizens

24:24

of other countries. You're competing with AR. If

24:27

you cannot read for meaning like 82% of

24:30

young grade four learners can, you don't stand a chance

24:32

in that world. So we've got to fix that. Those

24:34

are things we've got to get right to the next

24:37

five years. I believe those things are

24:39

the bedrock to building a

24:41

prosperous, open, more inclusive

24:43

country with a government that's working for

24:45

the people, not against them. And where

24:48

everybody in the country, regardless of their

24:50

skin color, has a fair shot at

24:53

getting an opportunity to improve their lives.

24:55

I think we focused far too much

24:57

in the last 30 years and I

25:00

think that it's not

25:02

necessarily an

25:04

evil thing that the ANC tried to do. I think

25:07

that there was their way of trying to

25:09

address the problems. It hasn't worked as well

25:11

as they thought it would. And

25:13

I think we've neglected the opportunity side

25:15

of the economy in South Africa while

25:17

trying to manage inequality of outcome. Our

25:20

focus on our policy suite, our economic

25:22

justice policy, our soon to be jobs

25:24

policy, focus on how you can create

25:26

an equality of opportunity in the country.

25:28

So it doesn't matter what your skin

25:30

color is, whether you're rural or urban, you

25:32

get a fair shot at getting a decent

25:35

education, good early childhood development, a

25:37

chance of getting a job, being able

25:39

to study without having your fees ripped

25:41

off by an osprey, being able to

25:43

get out there and start a small

25:45

business if you want to, be able

25:47

to live in a safe community, having

25:49

infrastructure that supports your business and your

25:51

endeavors, making sure that every citizen has

25:53

access to quality universal health

25:56

care in the country, getting those basic things

25:58

right so that we build their in a

26:00

platform for future prosperity and growth. And that's

26:02

how I think we're going to unlock the

26:04

real potential. So if it's not going to

26:06

change, if we have the same

26:08

people around the same table, making the same bad

26:10

decisions as we've seen over the last 30 years. I

26:14

come from a marketing background and

26:18

because of media communication. And

26:21

often we're told that what is said and what

26:23

is heard are

26:25

not always the same thing. What

26:28

do you think people hear as

26:31

the DA when you say all these

26:33

things? Why? Because I'm still trying

26:35

to get to the reason that

26:37

when you sit in your war room

26:39

that says, we're trying to get more

26:42

South Africans to hear us. What

26:45

do you think they hear you say? If these are

26:47

the things that you're saying that

26:49

makes it difficult for them to

26:52

get over the, when they're in the ballot,

26:54

get over the hump that

26:56

says, I'm going to put my X here. Well, I

26:59

think that every political party's mission is to make sure

27:01

that their message is heard and

27:03

that it resonates with people.

27:05

And I think we do have an advantage in

27:08

that is that it's not necessarily only telling people

27:11

what they should hear. It's showing

27:13

people what we've done. I

27:15

think showing in marketing is far better

27:18

than telling. And some of the most

27:20

simple adverts in marketing don't

27:22

have a long-telling part of the advert. The advert

27:24

is a simple picture that shows you something.

27:26

So every show, 300,000 new jobs in the Western

27:28

Cape over

27:31

the last year, that gives

27:33

credibility to the promise that

27:36

we're making to get people jobs. When we jail

27:38

27,000 criminals because

27:40

of the law enforcement advancement program

27:43

that's put policemen and women on

27:45

the streets in some of the most

27:47

dangerous areas in the Western Cape, that's

27:49

showing people rather than telling them. And

27:51

I think showing is a much more

27:53

powerful weapon. On the matter of showing,

27:55

and you've got some good case studies.

27:57

I saw you tweeted this RTS there.

28:00

about your infrastructure. Jordan Hill Lewis, you

28:02

said city of Cape Town spending 39.7

28:06

billion rand on infrastructure and investing

28:08

in infrastructure over the next three

28:10

year period. Joburg's

28:12

only spending 22 billion by comparison.

28:15

And then of course we've got the Tequini

28:17

and the smaller cities there as well. Cape

28:20

Town is a good example. I

28:23

wonder if you guys aren't being a

28:25

little naive about the patriotic alliance stealing

28:27

some of your thunder in Cape Town.

28:30

Are you worried about that? Is that something that's come up

28:33

in your war rooms? Cause Gaetan's convinced he's

28:35

gonna give you a hiding. Well, Gaetan is

28:38

like the classic schoolroom bully. He goes around threatening

28:40

to donate everybody, but,

28:42

you know, rushes off to the toilets and the tea

28:44

break when the time comes. And I think we're gonna

28:46

see that in the election. There's no doubt he will

28:48

pick up support. We're seeing a

28:50

disintegration of good. We're seeing

28:52

a disintegration of, you know, some

28:54

of those parties there in

28:57

the Western Cape. But is he going

28:59

to reduce the Western Cape's DA majority?

29:02

Absolutely not. I don't think he cares about

29:04

how much he spent on infrastructure, for example.

29:06

Well, I don't think that he's gonna care much to

29:10

spend on infrastructure when the tenders

29:12

start rolling. Maybe Pumi's right. Like

29:14

there's a disconnect and maybe South

29:16

Africa. Because even in the Western

29:18

Cape, this is the DA's shining example

29:20

of how well they do. And it is,

29:22

by the way. Even in the Western Cape. It

29:24

is evident to anyone who's been there. Can

29:27

I finish? Sorry. So even in

29:30

the Western Cape, and

29:32

this is why you would say

29:34

the opposition parties don't split the

29:36

opposition, right? Even in the

29:38

Western Cape, where you have all of these

29:40

shining examples, the growth of

29:43

the DA's majority in

29:45

the Western Cape doesn't reflect

29:48

that. That's why, as I would

29:50

say, in a democratic South Africa,

29:52

we're gonna contest everywhere, right? It's

29:54

because there is that. Those people in

29:57

the Western Cape, they're

29:59

not... All of them are not voting

30:01

for the DA. Why is

30:03

it not translating into... The

30:05

question for me really is, what

30:08

is the disjuncture, in

30:10

your view, what is the disjuncture for

30:13

the voter? Well, I think the

30:15

disjuncture in the past has been

30:17

around trust. It's a party

30:19

that really is going to work

30:21

for me. I think that it is

30:24

a party that's going to represent me

30:26

and my opinions and my viewpoints and

30:29

my wants and my desires. And

30:31

I think that what has happened and changed over the

30:33

last one to five years is

30:36

that politics has become very real

30:38

for South African citizens. Low

30:41

shooting has reached into people's homes and switched

30:43

off the electricity. You

30:46

and Joburg are sitting without water for days

30:48

on end, not because there's no

30:50

water in the dams, but because the infrastructure

30:52

is broken. And I think that in

30:54

this election, it's going to be a lot easier

30:56

to jump over that trust barrier if you're

30:58

able to show people exactly what we're doing

31:01

in Cape Town around infrastructure. I'm going to

31:03

just make point 73% of that infrastructure is

31:06

being built in previously disadvantaged areas,

31:08

in township areas, in informal settlements

31:10

and in poorer neighborhoods. And

31:14

as Joe Biden famously said, when he still

31:16

could, don't tell

31:18

me what your priorities are, show me your budgets and

31:20

I'll tell you what your priorities are. If

31:24

you look at the city of Cape Town's budget and the West Cape,

31:26

and let me just be very clear, the

31:28

best in Cape is not perfect, not

31:30

by a long way. We've got a long way

31:32

to go still in dealing with those apartheid era

31:35

social backlogs, spatial

31:38

inequality is still a big issue in

31:40

Cape Town as it is in every

31:42

major city in the

31:44

country. So you get these trolls

31:46

and others who come and say, yes, but

31:48

Kaili is not Camps Bay. Of course it's

31:50

not. We never said it is. Just

31:53

a sense in this in Daleks and on Laasie

31:55

isn't some slunga. That

31:58

is the case. But if you look... at

32:00

the access to basic services

32:02

in all of those places,

32:04

not the DA's propaganda machine,

32:06

ratings Africa, the auditor general

32:08

and the national report itself,

32:11

highest access to basic services,

32:14

closest proximity to medical and

32:16

healthcare, highest access to jobs,

32:19

best power and public transport system. All of

32:21

these are rolled out with the DA governance

32:24

and these things do make a

32:26

difference because these are the things that

32:30

are going to beat inequality and

32:32

unemployment. John, I'm going to go

32:34

to comments here because there's someone called Patrick in the

32:36

comments. I can't figure out whether he likes you or

32:39

hates you. But

32:41

he says, first of all, don't

32:43

lie, you're scared of losing colored boats

32:45

to Gaiden. And then he says later

32:47

on, tell me about Kocha. He

32:49

says on the municipal level, I want to know

32:51

what is going on to the DA in Kocha

32:53

next to PE. It's like an ANC municipality. Roads

32:55

are services Kaka been there many times on weekends,

32:57

he says. Tell us why the residents of Kocha

32:59

should vote DA because they're getting nothing better than

33:01

they were down to the A. Well, it's the

33:03

best run municipality in the Eastern Cape. He doesn't

33:06

think so. It's not perfect. But

33:08

compared to East

33:10

London, Buffalo City, take

33:12

a drive there. And as I say, people

33:15

expect that the DA is going to have

33:17

roads paved with gold. There's huge challenges in

33:20

these municipalities, particularly when you inherit

33:22

municipalities that are so fundamentally broken.

33:24

And remember as well that

33:27

these municipalities also exist in a

33:29

macro environment. They're not islands in

33:31

the stream. They exist

33:34

in a macroeconomic environment where a national

33:36

government is not doing enough to grow

33:38

the economy, to attract investment into the

33:40

country, to be able to ensure that

33:42

we retain skills, to ensure that we

33:45

provide quality services. And so these municipalities

33:47

are really up against it in a

33:49

failed province like the Eastern Cape where

33:51

you've got a provincial government that doesn't

33:54

do what it should do. You've got

33:56

a national government that's destroying the macro

33:58

environment. And it's very different. difficult in

34:00

these municipalities. Chris Pappas is up

34:03

against it in Umgeni municipality.

34:05

He's doing the best he can. Is

34:09

Umgeni pothole free? Absolutely

34:11

not. But it's in a much better state than it

34:13

was when we inherited it and

34:15

COCA is the same. We've got

34:17

a record of action there. We've got a

34:19

promise of more and we will get there.

34:21

But just think how much easier it would

34:23

be if we had a DA or an

34:25

NPC, provincial government in the eastern Cape that

34:27

was working with the municipality to be able

34:30

to ensure that it can really

34:32

get things moving. And Kulelek is going for

34:34

low-hanging fruit here but he says, can you

34:36

ask John what is the price of bread

34:38

because that tripped up Julius Malema the other day. I

34:40

think the last time I looked at Chopra it's 19 around

34:42

90. Very

34:45

expensive. 10 of Pultur's,

34:47

24.60 at Chopra. Okay,

34:50

you done your homework? A litre of milk, 1975 at Chopra. What

34:54

about this? Who was asked about all

34:56

the price of bread and sugar? Let me

34:59

just tell you how I know that because

35:01

I do my own shopping. And

35:04

I think it's very important and I've said very clearly

35:06

the day that I can't walk into my

35:08

local pick and pay and do my shopping is

35:11

the day I'll leave politics. And you don't have

35:13

huge security detail in Blue Life Brigade, do you?

35:16

I've had to have two people come in with me today because

35:19

I was fearing a mauling from you

35:21

and Pummy. It might need

35:23

to be escorted out. Well, we

35:25

haven't made it too comfortable. We haven't made it

35:27

completely shit. So let's just go to this. Patrick

35:29

also has a good view. I drive my own

35:31

car, which I might tell you. I'll

35:34

see somebody's going on about lifestyle all the time. I'm

35:36

actually too embarrassed to put a lifestyle all on the

35:38

table. I drive a 45-year-old Mercedes Benz. Which

35:41

I drive myself. Wow. Still

35:43

goes, huh? Still goes perfectly.

35:45

The faded room. Patrick says to

35:48

continue his either argument or his

35:50

admiration view. He

35:52

says, I'm voting freedom front plus simply

35:54

due to Cornet Mulder being the adult

35:57

in the room regarding coalition politics. Unlike

35:59

literally the So are you clearly clearly Patrick

36:01

is is a freedom front man and that and

36:03

that's fine I mean a photo he thinks he

36:06

is I have you're like I have it to

36:08

like one a moulder But yeah,

36:10

I think that's the the IFP as

36:12

well. He said okay Well, that's good,

36:14

but the question I have is yeah,

36:16

there's this constant discussion of right being

36:18

outflanked on the right I

36:21

mean the DA is pretty much

36:23

a centrist correct party I don't think you

36:25

consider yourselves right the freedom front we had

36:28

Peter Nivault in here the other day. He says he's

36:30

center, right? Are you worried about being

36:33

outflanked and losing votes to the freedom front? They've certainly

36:35

grown. Yeah I think they're going to struggle in this

36:37

election. I don't think it's gonna be an easy one

36:40

for them I think they fed a lot

36:42

of the DA's 2019 blue jelly where

36:45

people were unsure what the DA was and

36:47

would stand it for stood for and the

36:49

flip-flopping and and Endless,

36:52

you know wobbling about on issues. I

36:54

think the DA since I've taken

36:56

over is far more clear On its

36:58

values and principles what we will accept what

37:01

we won't accept what we stand for and

37:04

what we want to achieve in the country And

37:06

I think they're going to struggle there in

37:08

that particular But look, I mean, I'm

37:10

not interested in leading factions and fractions The

37:12

point of the DA is to unite and

37:14

lead the whole and that's what we

37:17

want to do We want to bring people together not

37:20

around race identity not around

37:22

language identity not around cultural identity

37:25

but around a lessons

37:27

around values and principles because

37:29

I think that's the only way we're going

37:31

to bring South Africans together at the center

37:34

the rational center is around values and

37:36

principles and values and

37:38

principles that we can all agree are

37:40

the Requirements to be able to build

37:42

a stable society on things like respect

37:44

for the law individual responsibility

37:46

individual freedom things like getting

37:48

government out of the way

37:50

of Citizens and

37:52

and how easy has it been to? Organize

37:57

people around the center with your

37:59

NPC including

38:01

breakaways such as ActionSA

38:05

and people who have historically

38:07

eaten into, you know, you say, if

38:09

we've seen kind of in 2019 and 2021, them

38:13

actually winning some wars of the DA

38:16

and really pulling some numbers away from

38:18

the DA. How easy has it been

38:21

to coalesce people around the center with

38:23

individuals who you essentially fight with?

38:26

Look, it hasn't been easy, and I'm

38:28

honest about that, but I don't think anything worth doing

38:30

is ever easy. And I fundamentally

38:33

sat down before my

38:36

Congress last year when I stood for reelection

38:38

and I said, what do we

38:40

need to do in South Africa if

38:42

we're going to get out of this

38:44

mess? Or we're going to have Groundhog

38:46

Day in the 2024 election where the

38:48

ANC is going to take advantage of

38:50

a squabbling disunited opposition and

38:52

it's going to once again prevail. And

38:56

it took a lot of thought

38:58

and a lot of putting

39:00

pride in pocket, but I said, let's leave our egos

39:02

at the door. Let's leave the scars of battle passed

39:04

at the door, and let's focus on

39:06

the people who really matter. It's not us

39:08

and our egos and our battles

39:11

that we've had with people that Congress has passed.

39:14

The imperative here is to rescue the people

39:16

of South Africa and to rescue the country

39:19

from the manipulators in the ANC who manipulate

39:21

voters every election. And I think that the

39:24

NPC, for all of its warts

39:27

and whatever its shortcomings may be,

39:29

remains, as we sit in the studio today, the

39:32

largest voting bloc outside of the

39:35

ANC and the

39:37

most credible path to victory for the opposition

39:39

in the country. Can you hold it together

39:41

until the election? Well, I think we've

39:43

been holding it together just fine. The

39:45

leaders meet every second Thursday. We've got a meeting

39:47

this evening. In between that,

39:49

we have a technical team and a marketing team

39:51

and a policy team that meet in the preceding

39:53

week. And I think there's

39:55

been a remarkable process of

39:58

synergizing 11 parties. approaches

40:00

into these documents that we've been releasing about

40:02

what our priorities would be in government, how

40:04

we would end load sheeting, how we'd keep

40:07

people safe, how we would build this capable

40:09

civil service. And I think that I imagine

40:11

that the practical stuff is easy enough because

40:14

we can all see what needs doing. Is

40:16

there a lot of ideology in those conversations or

40:18

very little? Look, I think

40:21

that the big difference here is that, and

40:24

that this is why the first

40:26

section of the multi-party charter meeting

40:28

at Empress Palace was to focus

40:31

on values and principles. Do

40:33

we all agree that these are the core values and

40:35

principles that are common to all of our parties? And

40:39

can we unite around those?

40:41

And that's the agreement and that's what comes

40:43

in. So yes, we will have differences on

40:45

the periphery, probably a different

40:47

view to the ACDP on a

40:50

variety of issues, differences with

40:52

Herman and actually say on

40:54

immigration. But on the core

40:56

things that we need to get right over the next five

40:58

years, I believe there's complete unanimity

41:00

and I think it's reflected in those

41:02

synergized offers that we've now put

41:05

before the people of South Africa to say,

41:07

look, we've put aside our

41:09

differences, we've united, we now need you to

41:11

come and unite behind us to

41:13

get us over that 50% plus one mark.

41:16

And that is the focus for us over the next

41:18

couple of weeks as we lead into

41:20

the election. We had all these

41:22

young people here yesterday talking about

41:24

ideology, talking about stuff on

41:27

the ground and unanimously all

41:29

of them said nothing

41:31

about what is offered

41:33

by all the

41:36

political parties is exciting to them.

41:39

What is your party's

41:42

stance and view on how to get more

41:44

young people? Because that's where the answer

41:46

is, right? Isn't getting more young

41:48

people engaged, more young people into

41:51

the ballot box and post the

41:53

election, more young people interested enough

41:55

to be part of the working

41:57

solution. Well, are you going to

41:59

meet? meet young people where they are and

42:01

having public meetings and expect young people to

42:04

come to town hall meetings is not where

42:06

they are. And that's why we've

42:08

invested so much time and effort on social media

42:10

and changing the way in which we

42:13

went out and did registration. We had

42:15

a big youth focus on registration. We

42:17

had competitions on social media where you

42:19

could win cool prizes and if you

42:21

came through to register, we had a

42:23

huge Rock the Registration event in place

42:25

like KwaZulu in and

42:28

we have thousands of young people coming to listen to the artists but

42:30

have registration stations set up where they

42:32

could come and register online. So

42:35

it's about meeting young people but also

42:38

making sure that your lists have

42:40

young people on them and that you

42:42

have young people in parliament. I mean the

42:44

ANC's parliamentary list looks like a

42:46

Sasser pay point on the 25th. Look

42:49

at the DA. We've got young people, the Yolen

42:52

Piti, we've got Naznae Sharif. Xavier

42:54

Gagube is under 40 and it's the first black female chief

42:56

whip of the opposition. We

43:00

don't talk about empowering young people that are leading

43:02

from the front in the DA. I think that's

43:04

great. Well I mean

43:06

that's an interesting thing. You have these leaders.

43:08

We had Chris Papas in here not so

43:11

long ago. We've spoken to Isilier Brink from

43:13

Pretoria, Jordan Hill Lewis. And these are

43:15

people who are to my

43:17

mind seeming new like rising

43:19

stars. You've

43:21

got the election coming up now. If

43:24

you win the MPC, let's say the

43:26

multi-party coalition, gets a really amazing turnout

43:28

and it could happen. I mean you're

43:30

hoping for that to happen. Would you

43:32

be president? Well we haven't decided

43:34

who will be president yet and there's a very

43:37

good reason for that. A, we don't have a

43:39

presidential system in South Africa and B, it's going

43:41

to be determined by whether

43:43

we get over the line and where the votes are going to come

43:45

from. What we

43:48

will do after the election, once the

43:50

results become clear, is convene as the

43:52

MPC and say, right, who are we

43:54

going to put up as the presidential

43:56

candidate? I have made it clear in

43:58

a massive sign of my arrogance. and

44:00

overweening ego that and clear from the

44:02

from day one of the NPC meeting

44:04

that this isn't about getting me in

44:06

as the president. And we specifically put

44:08

it in the clause in

44:10

the NPC agreement that the largest party won't necessarily

44:13

be the president. Shows you what a big

44:15

ego I have. So

44:17

we will sit down afterwards and said

44:19

who can best unite people. Everybody

44:23

who isn't you is saying, oh no John,

44:25

this whole plan. I've made

44:27

it very clear that the largest party I

44:29

ever must occupy the leader of government business

44:31

position and there's a very good reason for that.

44:34

Is that if we're going to fix South Africa, we're

44:36

going to rescue South Africa. We've got

44:38

to drive a legislative reform agenda through parliament.

44:41

One of the big mistakes that Sir Ramaphosa

44:43

made is he announced this wonderful new dawn

44:46

but he didn't translate it into any

44:48

legislation. So it's now vanished like

44:50

the morning mist which is why I've got a

44:52

set of bills lined up that we would like

44:54

to get through parliament in the first year bringing

44:56

back the scorpions, ending catered

44:59

appointment, breaking ministries, breaking

45:02

regulations that are inhibiting

45:04

entrepreneurs, lifting import duties

45:06

on small backeys so that the young

45:09

entrepreneurs in the country are able to

45:11

affordable vehicles to roll out

45:13

their businesses. These are some of the exciting things

45:15

that we've got planned. It's not going to

45:17

happen if you aren't able to push through a legislative

45:19

agenda. And I think that's

45:21

why that position of leader of government business is

45:24

going to be an important position. And as you know,

45:26

I've got a massive passion for parliament. You may or

45:28

may not have noticed. But

45:30

and that's why I think we are

45:32

going to reform the country is through

45:34

legislative reform that actually translates your vision

45:37

into action. For a very long time,

45:39

things were just ticking along in

45:41

terms of what it's looking like

45:43

going into the vote. And we

45:45

were talking about turnout more than

45:47

anything with where the difference would

45:50

lie. Right. Because all the numbers,

45:52

the way that the numbers are, all

45:54

the members of the MPC right now, if they get

45:56

the same numbers that they got in the last election,

45:58

they're not going to be able to do that. not

46:00

going to get a 50 plus one. And

46:02

then along came MK, which has been quite

46:04

a disruptor. When

46:07

you look at that disruption,

46:09

what is your whole room in

46:12

your polling telling you about how

46:14

you have to recalibrate going

46:16

into this election? It's not about recalibration,

46:19

it's about being excited

46:21

because if I look

46:23

at our polling and I certainly look at some of the credible

46:26

polls that have come out there, it

46:28

all ties in. MK will be the third largest

46:30

party in the country after this election. They are

46:33

the biggest party in case in in currently

46:35

on the polling, but

46:37

they've eaten the votes, not from the opposition.

46:40

They've eaten the votes directly out of the

46:42

ANC and the EFF. And

46:44

anything that weakens their majority makes

46:47

our job as the NPC getting over the line

46:49

a lot easier. Of course, we don't have 50%

46:51

plus one now. If we did, we would be

46:54

in government. But I think with a large

46:57

number of new voters on the voters

46:59

role, and the fact that

47:01

there were 14 million people in the last

47:03

election who stayed at

47:05

home because variety of reasons, some said,

47:07

oh, the ANC is going to win anyway. So I'm off

47:09

to the beach or to play golf. My vote is not

47:11

going to make a difference. Those people

47:14

now with the NPC can see

47:16

that there is a path to victory. And I

47:18

think that's given them hope. And I think that's

47:20

reflected in a larger number of new registrations as

47:22

well. I think that the

47:25

situation in the country has

47:27

got so dire and so bad. And

47:30

poor government decisions are

47:32

now affecting people's daily life from whether they've

47:34

got water in their taps, electricity in their

47:36

homes, where they've got a job to go

47:38

to, the roads they travel to work, where

47:40

those are exploding or riddled with potholes or

47:42

not, whether your local

47:45

government is able to pick up your refuse. All

47:47

of these things have shown people that they may

47:49

not be interested in politics. Have you made a

47:51

call to get them over into

47:53

the NPC? No, because I don't know what

47:56

their values and principles are or their policy. And

47:58

they've been very, I think, shy. on

48:00

coming forward and saying these are our

48:02

principles. I mean, it's not like Gates and it comes

48:04

to these are my principles, if you don't like them,

48:07

I have others. And they haven't even shown us what

48:09

their principles are. I don't know

48:11

what their economic policy is. And this

48:13

is the thing. So once we know those

48:15

things, it will allow-

48:17

And that way the opportunity is you can

48:19

help them figure those things out. Well,

48:22

I think it's up to- If they are gonna be the third life

48:24

of the fight. It's up to them to figure those things out. And

48:27

we'll obviously have to see where the chips lie

48:29

after the election. But we see them

48:32

in places like Kuzuna Teligalting,

48:34

particularly, as a stepping

48:37

stone for the MPC to be

48:39

able to get over the line and be

48:41

able to form a majority there because they've

48:43

cannibalized the ANC to

48:45

such a degree that it's

48:48

wholesale structures that are going across in places

48:50

like KZDIN. And I think that they are

48:52

gonna assist being a roadblock to the ANC's

48:55

national majority. So in terms of

48:57

absolute numbers, and I saw somebody in the

48:59

comments also spoke about them, when I look

49:01

at absolute numbers of who has voted for

49:04

the DA, from 1994 when

49:07

there was no DA, when the MP and

49:09

the DP were still there, the absolute numbers

49:12

show a, not

49:14

even when you had a bump, they

49:17

really are around that 3 million

49:19

marks from then to today. What

49:22

is going to give you this big bump this

49:24

time around? Because you haven't in all

49:27

those years, when you merged and

49:29

became the DA, the numbers stayed

49:31

the same, the two parties numbers

49:33

became DA numbers, absolute numbers. So

49:35

even in 2019, those were

49:37

your absolute numbers. What is going to give you

49:39

this bump this time around? The compelling message

49:41

of hope and change for South Africa and

49:44

a record of delivery being able to show

49:46

rather than tell people what we've done. We're

49:48

not speaking about creating an economy that works,

49:51

we've done so. We don't talk

49:53

about creating a capable state, we've delivered it in

49:55

the Western Cape. We don't talk about fighting

49:57

crime, we're doing it every single day.

50:00

And I think being able to tell vote, show

50:02

voters rather than tell them that record

50:04

of action is going to be compelling. I think that

50:06

the manifesto as well sets out

50:08

the problem. It's not a DA pointing fingers and

50:10

saying all the NCS rubbish sets out the problem.

50:13

It puts on the table a solution and then

50:15

goes further to say and this is how we're

50:18

doing it in the Western Cape, whether it's creating

50:20

prosumers, whether it's beating load shedding, whether it's keeping

50:22

people safe on the streets, whether it's creating jobs,

50:25

quality affordable healthcare, making sure children have a

50:27

better opportunity to be able to build a

50:29

better future. Those are the things that are

50:31

going to move people in this election. What

50:34

happens if the DA loses ground? Well,

50:37

I mean we'll have to- If you recede, what's your plan? Well,

50:40

I mean we're going to have to go

50:42

back to the drawing board and have a

50:44

look. I mean if we go backwards from

50:46

2019, I think my position would be pretty

50:48

unsustainable going forward. But I'm not thinking of

50:50

that. I know we're going to grow in

50:52

this election. I'm absolutely passionately believe

50:54

that we're going to grow. I spent

50:56

last year on the ground visiting

50:58

small towns. I'm going to tour around all the metros.

51:01

At the moment, it's part of the Rescue South Africa tour. We're

51:03

in Ecoleni on Friday night. We

51:06

were in Cape Town this

51:08

last week and in

51:10

Pretoria the weekend before, sharing this message

51:12

of hope and change with people and

51:15

getting onto the doorstep. That's what's going

51:17

to move the needle. There

51:19

are a lot of people who are supporting you in the comments.

51:22

There are equally some criticisms. There are two people

51:24

who are very persistent here. Conga Chris wants to

51:26

know about the Danoon Trash Lake, which I didn't

51:28

know was a thing. Maybe you could tell me

51:30

what that is. What is

51:32

the Danoon Trash Lake? It's an area

51:35

in Cape Town

51:37

which is in the heart of an informal

51:39

settlement where because

51:43

people are throwing rubbish into it, it is

51:45

virtually polluted 24 hours a day. It

51:49

is something that the city is trying to

51:51

sort out, but it is obviously very, very

51:54

difficult. I mean, obviously short of

51:56

putting a cover onto it, you're not going to

51:58

be able to stop people throwing rubbish. rubbish into

52:00

it. And so the city goes and they've got units

52:02

that go and rake up all the rubbish and clear

52:04

it off. But within a

52:07

week or two, it's back

52:10

there again. But this is why, this is

52:12

exactly why we're trying to move

52:14

people closer to the city centre,

52:17

creating well-located government-owned land closer

52:20

to the urban centre to

52:22

build mixed-use social housing

52:24

developments. There's two new ones going up

52:26

in Woodstock. The city is just one

52:29

court case to get

52:31

some more sites to access. The Konradi

52:33

Park development there, bringing people closer to

52:35

the city centre makes it

52:37

a lot easier because you have the

52:40

existing infrastructure. You don't have people living

52:42

on dolomitic land where it's impossible to

52:44

put in basic services, even if you

52:46

wanted to do so. And that's

52:49

what the focus is on, bringing people closer to the

52:51

urban core, being able to ensure that they

52:53

have a cross-subsidized housing

52:55

system where you've got bond owners

52:58

living with people on social

53:00

housing. And there's a cross-subsidization with a portion

53:02

of the land mainly being

53:04

financed through a public-private partnership deal

53:06

with a commercial shopping centre. It's

53:09

a system that's working and very excitingly

53:11

in a partnership with Kuro schools,

53:14

there's now good quality

53:16

private education being made

53:18

accessible for the first time to

53:21

lower-income families. And I think it's going to

53:23

be a game changer. The other person

53:25

here is Elondo who wants to know desperately who I'm

53:27

voting for. And Pumi and I have made a decision

53:30

that will only say who we're voting for

53:32

a week before the election. That's

53:34

brave. I mean, we're not... I've still got three

53:36

weeks to work on Pumi. No, no, well... I

53:40

mean, Pumi is always accused of being anti-DA and

53:42

then... It depends on when you come to the

53:44

show. And then she's anti everyone else. Yeah, I

53:46

mean, it's the deeper consistency of your willingness. That's

53:48

the main thing. And then equal opportunity of end-up.

53:51

But don't... Don't worry, so am I. And

53:53

don't base your votes on me because I've

53:56

got it wrong at least four times. Well,

53:58

I think you've got a slightly better... The track record

54:00

that Peter Bruce as as smart as

54:03

an early for the mods and misallocating

54:05

one. Thing that hasn't come up in

54:07

the Commons and I'm interested to know

54:09

what's you think? Your stance on Israel

54:11

is the to do. To your Muslim vote

54:13

in the listen kid. Will Yeah,

54:15

I think that any Muslim voters.

54:18

Would know what opposition has been

54:20

since Twenty Fourteen and it hasn't

54:22

changed. We believe in a two

54:24

state solution with a independent and

54:26

occupied Palestine living next door to

54:28

secure. It's Israel, and that's why

54:30

we've been very clear that both

54:32

sides leads come to the table.

54:35

the hostages be to be released

54:37

and we need to negotiate. Towards.

54:40

A Peaceful Solutions And I'm sorry

54:42

that South Africa has taken such

54:44

a partisan stand in this as

54:46

a government because I think that

54:48

all story in South Africa should

54:50

be one that would give the

54:52

people of that region hope. Many

54:54

people thought our situation and the

54:57

country was impractical for decades and

54:59

it was only through the two

55:01

sides coming together around the table,

55:03

the burst ah, beautiful constitution and

55:05

and was the Midwest towards our

55:07

democracies. And I think the longer.

55:10

We continue in a state of war. In.

55:12

That region I think that most civilians

55:15

are going to seven. It's terrible to

55:17

seats the human suffering on both sides

55:19

after that costly the terror attack, but

55:21

not to see the civilian casualties results.

55:23

The mum bought months and a worry

55:26

if I look in the last week

55:28

the escalation. now with Iran coming into

55:30

the picture with the to decks avoid

55:32

the things going to escalate into a

55:34

far bigger regional crosses in the Middle

55:37

East and South. The sooner we can

55:39

get mature heads around the table, they're

55:41

not. Look, I'll be very clear. Radicals.

55:44

And both sides are not gonna last

55:46

the Ds positions but we're not here

55:48

to to to. Pander to

55:50

the radicals who are only happy if you

55:53

stand on the steps of parliament, wave the

55:55

flag and call for the object destruction of

55:57

of the other side. Oh that's not as.

56:00

We're on the side of peace risotto,

56:02

rationality and not and radicalism and so

56:04

we will consider was set that pass

56:06

and the maybe voters who like it

56:08

into be virgins don't like it's prosecutors

56:10

rational other you the sensible and I

56:12

think it is the way forward towards

56:14

finding a salon the last and they

56:17

have been impact other that number of

56:19

people know because I say a single

56:21

that it's a think that people. And

56:23

city full of the polling. And and

56:26

look at some of the the work

56:28

that's been done sir not only by

56:30

As but by independent pollsters that people

56:32

are far more concerned about what's happening

56:34

on the West Bank to the upscale

56:36

robots than the West Bank in in

56:38

Gaza. They worry about jobs and worry

56:40

about it shouldn't suits. They worry about

56:42

the fact that don't have a house.

56:44

They were events and while on the

56:46

word west what do you? you guys

56:48

have been. A silly care but

56:50

I want to give you a chance to

56:52

said again about western Cape Independence which some

56:54

people still tossing as a viable option at

56:57

what's your feeling on that says we bust

56:59

the other part I think it's a waste

57:01

of energy and I think it's as the

57:03

as he gets the it's It's a waste

57:05

to this to because they some really low

57:08

hanging fruit that we should be grasping at

57:10

the moment and that is devolution of palace

57:12

we've shown on than the program and but

57:14

evolving policing powers to local table saw that

57:16

can really make a difference in combating crime

57:19

and criminality. Said twenty seven

57:21

thousand arrests and the last year alone

57:23

just the leap offices in those hotspot

57:25

areas. The Isis has moved, moved to

57:28

earth and younger off it's murder capital.

57:30

This not because of the focus of

57:32

resources. This if we can get crazy

57:34

devolution, rail on pulse and harbors on

57:37

electricity. I think that that is the

57:39

low hanging fruit and the constitution is

57:41

this and and allows it already without

57:44

us him to change a single law.

57:46

A: Why would we want to not

57:48

spend incident. Time in a long

57:50

process that the people of Catalonia

57:53

still fighting Many decades later. this

57:55

people of Scotland have to be

57:57

fighting Quebec citrus his lungs. Not

58:00

existential arguments when what we should be

58:02

folks who wants is what is graspable

58:04

in the immediate future and we can

58:06

of devolution after the Twenty ninth of

58:09

May People vote rest of the national.

58:11

it will. Well, I mean if I

58:13

am it's singular she voter. it must

58:15

be the local governments more important, the

58:17

national gun of course, differently or famously

58:19

said that or policies of Cycle and

58:21

Co. the President is next season. Makes

58:24

very little difference to me on the

58:26

day to day basis. I'm more interested

58:28

in those streetlights working. The. River

58:30

not being the. These

58:32

are things were government actually could make

58:34

a difference activity. But the but don't

58:37

you saw the fact that a collapsing

58:39

macro environment does push downward pressure on

58:41

wheels? Penny Or know that this will

58:43

seal it every day, right? Okay sir,

58:48

Cyril. And the A and see are

58:50

they they stick their campaign and died. Yeah,

58:52

now there's less advertising up all over the

58:54

place. you guys. Gonna. Run out

58:56

of money or you got on that front to

58:58

are we always looking for more money? Garrisons know

59:00

that we always on this on the on and

59:03

own sense. Just a little bit more would get

59:05

us over the line. Well I mean see below.

59:07

always want to know who you're fund is our

59:09

and you guys have to reveal who's a Sunday

59:11

or it's think it's over one hundred thousand and.

59:14

Who you're picked? Sanders and Sports

59:16

or publicly available? It's it's it's.

59:18

mainly a. Private. Businesses and

59:20

and corporations that give us money and not enough

59:23

to have an also supports other parties. Correct and

59:25

in Ojai was fine very odd like they can't

59:27

even put their money where their mouth is. Well

59:29

I mean I would love them to give it

59:31

all test but as long as a giving it

59:34

is it as a as long as they giving

59:36

it down in history parties are not to parties

59:38

outside of the in some of them are they

59:40

selling some of me giving to the agency and

59:42

the da's as in that sense or seconds to

59:45

see and putting on red and black but us

59:47

I think they want to as they want to

59:49

other day their. Invest in the good The

59:51

said giving money because I can tell

59:53

Iraq now if we did not have

59:56

probably done is in this environment the

59:58

agency would completely dominates because. That access

1:00:00

to the tenders and contract you saw

1:00:02

how much their fate of a touchy

1:00:05

in the deal the around to see

1:00:07

the and the do piece of you

1:00:09

seen how their greatest single donor as

1:00:12

a kitten linked or legal victory Vekselberg

1:00:14

We would be in a very difficult

1:00:16

situation if we weren't able to rely

1:00:18

on this done a zombie. Grateful that

1:00:21

reduce of people in the country who

1:00:23

are committed to seeing a spy bill.

1:00:25

multiparty democracy spots. But.

1:00:28

I gotta ask you one last a success.

1:00:31

You. Know I asked him in most other this as

1:00:33

well as like that but no you didn't have

1:00:35

to and I know you gonna give me the

1:00:37

whole. Oh you'll get a fight for

1:00:39

our country ever anticipated pot thing is there a

1:00:41

personal toll and all of this your your you

1:00:43

like constantly having to fight and I heard you

1:00:45

talk about social media earlier. And. I

1:00:47

just I'm lucky enough I can get off their if

1:00:50

I don't want to and I did for a long

1:00:52

time and actually life was much more pleasant. A

1:00:54

You're not tempted by the idea

1:00:56

as. To say rights. Record

1:00:59

are you? I'm out in the. Sunsets,

1:01:03

Absence this Er et on pause Yes

1:01:06

I am. I want to give you

1:01:08

an honest answers Can Yes I get

1:01:10

frustrated. I get most frustrated by a

1:01:12

meteor that that keeps on a fund

1:01:14

A moral equivalence between the Dna and

1:01:17

See. Despite the fact that we get

1:01:19

things mostly rotten they get things most

1:01:21

the wrongs and that frustrates me. Know

1:01:23

and but guess I'm not been doing

1:01:25

this since I was twenty two years

1:01:28

old and public last it's become a

1:01:30

lot of developed a very thick skin.

1:01:32

I'm a straight shooter. And some people

1:01:34

don't like that as I'm sure you'd it's

1:01:36

experience as well, but I didn't. Anybody can

1:01:39

be under any misconception about what I'm saying

1:01:41

when I said and and I like that

1:01:43

but it does take it's toll and and

1:01:45

the people suffer the most All family. are

1:01:49

to watch my daughter last spot reading a

1:01:51

bedtime story to the cell sub switch my

1:01:53

wife sent me a video of and that's

1:01:55

usually my job when i'm home but when

1:01:57

he on the campaign trail four days off

1:01:59

five days out, two days at

1:02:01

home. And it does take a toll. And my big

1:02:04

people often say, What is your biggest weakness in life?

1:02:06

And my biggest weakness is that I don't carve out

1:02:08

enough time for my family. But

1:02:11

the mission is just so important, Gareth, to, to

1:02:14

rescue South Africa. And I

1:02:16

see it as what I'm

1:02:19

doing is going to build

1:02:21

a viable place where we all can live

1:02:24

and raise our families. I hold no passport

1:02:26

for another country. I don't have any citizenship

1:02:28

anywhere else in the world. I haven't

1:02:31

been offered asylum by Jeff Bezos, as some

1:02:33

of the sinful acts, France, when

1:02:35

I sold in the Western Cape. And

1:02:39

I've got to make this place work not only for me

1:02:41

and my family, but for, for all

1:02:43

of the people here, I think we've got

1:02:45

a great country here. This little piece of

1:02:47

earth on the southern tip of this continent

1:02:50

is a terrific place. And I've been to

1:02:52

many places in the world, they don't compare.

1:02:54

And I think she's worth the fighting for. And

1:02:56

that's what gets me out of bed every morning.

1:02:58

That's a great place. And then I know, come

1:03:00

on, we went to one last thing. You

1:03:04

know what? Elections are like

1:03:06

the Hunger Games. I love

1:03:08

listening to all of the polls and all of

1:03:10

that stuff. And polls told us one thing, and

1:03:12

then we woke up and there was Brexit polls

1:03:14

told us one thing, we woke up and there

1:03:16

was Donald Trump. So I hope your polls are

1:03:18

in your favor. May

1:03:20

the polls be always in your favor. And

1:03:23

I think it was fantastic. Thank you for coming.

1:03:26

Thank you for being thankful. For a couple more

1:03:28

weeks of being out there on

1:03:30

the ground. Good luck to you. We're

1:03:32

gonna have this conversation again, after

1:03:34

the 29th of May. And may the

1:03:36

odds be in your favor. Yeah, I've

1:03:38

said it to every party and good luck.

1:03:41

Thank you. Thanks for what you guys do

1:03:43

to keep media alive and bear

1:03:46

fair and balanced comments going in the country. Thank

1:03:48

you very much. It's always wonderful to be with

1:03:50

you guys. The audience are split. There's some people

1:03:52

here devotees. There's nothing you can do wrong and

1:03:54

there's some people there's nothing you can do right.

1:03:57

It was ever thus. All

1:03:59

right.? Thank you, John. the only leader The da.

1:04:02

And. The elections just over sixty days

1:04:04

away. so you going start making your

1:04:06

mind up everybody who's undecided at this

1:04:08

point. Get on your bicycle,

1:04:11

do your homework, And we

1:04:13

getting all the leaders in his talk about what

1:04:15

they stand for, the some tough questions and they

1:04:17

will be similar for the other leaders has still

1:04:19

to come. And then there's some man some moments

1:04:22

where we kind of think a well that makes

1:04:24

sense. I can't really argue with it. I hope

1:04:26

you found some of the former and some of

1:04:28

the latter. We will see you tomorrow. At

1:04:31

six am chez everybody about.