0:00

What up team? It's episode 366 of the Genius Live. Let's

0:04

go. That's the body and

0:07

brain don't stop. There's

0:09

so much more. The genius

0:11

live. The genius live.

0:13

There's so much more. That's

0:15

the genius live. What's

0:18

cracking everybody? Welcome back to another episode of

0:20

the show. I'm your host, Max Lugavere, a

0:22

filmmaker, health and science journalist in New York

0:24

Times bestselling author. I've dedicated my life to

0:27

unraveling the science behind how our choice is,

0:29

including what we eat and how we live,

0:31

affect our cognitive and physical performance, how we

0:33

feel, our health span and our risk for

0:35

disease. This podcast is all about how to

0:37

live in that optimal state, which I call

0:40

living like a genius. On today's episode of

0:42

the show, I'm super excited to welcome back

0:44

for the second time, Dr. Judson Brewer. Dr.

0:46

Brewer is both an MD and

0:48

a PhD, no big deal. And

0:50

he is a thought leader in

0:53

the field of habit change and

0:55

the science of self mastery. Having

0:57

combined over 20 years of experience

0:59

with mindfulness training with his scientific

1:01

research therein, a psychiatrist and internationally

1:04

known expert in mindfulness training for

1:06

addictions, Dr. Brewer has developed and

1:08

tested novel mindfulness programs for habit

1:10

change, including both in-person and app-based

1:12

treatments for smoking, emotional eating and

1:15

anxiety. On today's episode of the

1:17

show, we are going to celebrate the release

1:19

of his brand new book, The Hunger Habit.

1:21

Why we eat when we're not hungry

1:23

and how to stop. If you're like

1:25

most people, sometimes it can feel as

1:28

if there are as many ways to

1:30

struggle with food as there are foods

1:32

to eat. Craving, habit, emotions, boredom, stress,

1:34

anxiety, or just the simple fact that

1:36

a box of donuts seems to be

1:38

omnipresent in the break room, well, that

1:40

can lead to feeling out of control

1:42

around food. And so on today's episode

1:44

of the show, Dr. Brewer is going

1:46

to share effective techniques for breaking bad

1:48

and stubborn habits, including overeating.

1:51

He's going to share a technique that he

1:53

used in a study on quitting smoking, where

1:55

he instructed patients to pay attention which led

1:57

smokers once and for all to realize that

1:59

smoking pasted. unpleasant, increasing their motivation to

2:01

quit. We're also gonna talk about the

2:03

rise of obesity and related health issues,

2:05

and he's gonna explain how the disconnection

2:07

from our body's signals and the allure

2:09

of highly processed foods all

2:11

contribute to the perfect storm of

2:14

overeating. Whether you're struggling with issues

2:16

related to your weight or there's a stubborn habit in

2:18

your life that you are just chomping at the bit

2:20

to finally quit, well, this is gonna be an episode

2:22

that you're gonna wanna pay close attention to, and please

2:24

don't forget to listen all the way through to the

2:27

end, and share this episode with friends and loved ones

2:29

in your life that may benefit from it.

2:31

Don't forget to subscribe to the channel on

2:33

YouTube, youtube.com/Max Lugavere, or just head over there

2:35

and search The Genius Life. Would love to

2:37

connect with you over there. Our content is

2:39

looking ever so dapper, and would love to

2:41

get your feedback on it and

2:44

comments and engage. We have a growing community over there,

2:46

about 200,000 subscribers strong. Would

2:48

love to have you be a

2:50

part of it. Again, youtube.com/Max Lugavere,

2:53

and yeah, check it out, guys. Every episode

2:55

of the podcast that we put up here

2:58

on your podcast app of choice,

3:01

we also put up over there. So,

3:03

youtube.com/Max Lugavere, check it out and enjoy.

3:06

And now, without further ado, here's my

3:08

conversation with the great Dr. Judson Brewer,

3:10

talking all things emotional eating, the hunger

3:12

habit, and so much more. Here we

3:14

go. Dr. Judson Brewer, what up?

3:16

Welcome back to the show, how you doing? I'm

3:18

good, thanks for having me. No, of course, in

3:21

person this time, way better. Yes, way better. Way,

3:23

way more fun. I

3:25

love to start high level and just dive right in

3:27

for listeners today, because I

3:29

know attention is limited. Can you

3:32

share one highly effective, yet often

3:34

overlooked technique for breaking a stubborn

3:36

habit that listeners and viewers

3:38

can start implementing today? That's

3:40

a good question. Okay, how about this one? Smoking.

3:44

Big, hardest habit to break in

3:46

addiction. And

3:49

here's the technique that I've used, and we've

3:51

gotten, in one study, we got five times

3:53

the quit rates of gold standard treatment when

3:55

we did a randomized controlled trial using this.

3:57

Five times? Five times. The quit rate, wow.

4:01

Patient walks into my office, they want to quit

4:03

smoking. I say, go ahead and smoke. And they look

4:05

at me like I'm crazy because my doctors told me

4:07

to smoke. But I give them one little piece on

4:10

top of that. And they say, pay attention when you

4:12

smoke. So they go home

4:14

and they come back and they're like, how did

4:17

I not see this before? Because when they pay attention

4:19

when they smoke a cigarette, tastes like crap. So

4:23

awareness, bringing awareness to the habit. Yep,

4:25

it is a superpower. And the awareness

4:27

really taps into the strength of our

4:29

brain to help us be able to

4:31

leverage this reinforcement learning aspects

4:33

of our brain that is really, really

4:35

strong, much stronger than

4:38

willpower. Wow, very interesting.

4:42

I feel like this is a recurring theme because I was

4:44

perusing your new book, The Hunger Habit, which is phenomenal by

4:46

the way. And it tackles a

4:48

habit that I think is actually

4:51

increasing in incidents

4:53

today, right? Like our habit

4:56

for consuming and ultimately

4:58

over consuming, ultra processed, highly

5:01

refined, ultimately fattening foods,

5:03

right? Yeah. Smoking, at least

5:05

living in Los Angeles, it seems to be

5:07

on the decline somewhat. But yet

5:09

you look at population statistics, people are getting

5:11

fatter, belly fat is increasing

5:14

across the board. So applied

5:16

to why we

5:18

eat when we're not hungry, right? Yeah,

5:22

so how does that work? Is it as simple

5:24

as bringing awareness to our food choices or what

5:27

does it lay out for us? Yeah, well, let's start

5:29

with ultra processed food if you wanna go there first.

5:31

And then we can talk about these coping mechanisms that

5:34

we develop with food. Ultra

5:36

processed food ultimately is there to

5:39

have a long shelf life and get us

5:41

addicted to eating it. My favorite

5:43

peer review general, the onion. They

5:47

had headline that says Dorito

5:49

celebrates this one millionth ingredient, right? Oh

5:51

my God. They are dialing in that

5:53

bliss point, you know, and that electric

5:56

orange, It's not a coincidence that

5:58

Cheetos and Doritos both have the same. The electric

6:00

orange you know, so it's it's there

6:02

to get as hot and you know

6:04

to get into our bloodstream really quickly

6:07

and to get us to you jack

6:09

are dope remaining goes to want more

6:11

so that's the starting point. You know?

6:13

we're fighting against this food industry that's

6:15

been engineering food for a long time

6:17

and humid day at Delays. slogan you

6:19

bet you can't he just one. Vaguely.

6:22

Ah tian tian or went up. You know

6:24

enough. First came out not little bit of

6:27

trivia. Nineteen sixty three. So. They

6:29

were already. You know they're already starting

6:31

to work with this. Ironically, that's the

6:33

same year that Weight Watchers Fort Worth

6:35

is. It is interesting. Yeah,

6:38

it really is the proliferation of these of

6:41

these highly refined, hyper palatable auto processed foods

6:43

that have and like I'm sure you've looked

6:45

at like obesity statistics on the like like

6:47

as a is as a be as is

6:50

that when it really started does it to

6:52

take off from a political standpoint. It's I

6:54

the last graph I'm picturing this one grouse

6:57

the I think started in Nineteen Eighty Fives

6:59

and Winter two thousand and sixteen server. What.

7:02

Three. Decades. Three four decades and so when

7:04

they start looking the eighties they were

7:06

studying see oh this is a problem.

7:08

I don't know if they're a great

7:10

data, I'm sure there are some data

7:12

from the sixties and seventies but is

7:14

really in the eighties and people started

7:16

to pay attention to this and now

7:18

is described as as an epidemic you

7:20

know added clinical obesity epidemic and always

7:22

a clinical obesity Because I think there's

7:24

a lot of confusion around things like

7:26

an people who are healthy but fat.

7:28

And so there's all this fat shaming

7:30

and concern in society of round. Like

7:32

hey somebody can be in A can be

7:35

fat from I B M my standpoint but

7:37

not unhealthy. So what we're talking about here

7:39

is Clinical Lbc I were it's really affecting

7:41

people's health but it would you say some

7:43

it's the minority or is it. And

7:46

like is somebody who's highly

7:48

overweight Hit Sad that threshold.

7:52

in terms of their be a my for being overweight is

7:54

it is it likely that they're also going to be healthy

7:56

or is it is it more likely that to be the

7:58

case that they're going to be on healthy on the

8:00

inside as well. Let's just put it that there's

8:02

a huge amount of clinical obesity out there. And

8:06

people are still trying to dial through the

8:08

data because a lot of this is based

8:10

on BMI and it's not accurate enough to

8:12

determine the difference between healthy obesity and clinical

8:15

obesity. But what we see from

8:17

the trends is that clinical

8:19

obesity is going up and we're also

8:21

seeing things like type two diabetes, hypertension,

8:23

obstructive sleep apnea, all these ramifications, all

8:26

these secondary effects that are secondary to

8:28

clinical obesity, those are also going up. So

8:31

I guess it's, would you say it's fair to say

8:33

that the BMI is a good, it's a good sort

8:35

of screening tool but it's not a diagnostic tool. Absolutely.

8:38

Like you would never diagnose somebody with obesity based on

8:40

their BMI alone. Yeah and some people are arguing that

8:42

we need better measures than BMI. It's just a quick

8:44

and, it's just so easy that people use it. You

8:46

know, you measure your height and your weight and you're

8:48

done. So you know, it lacks

8:50

specificity but it certainly tries to make

8:53

up for that in simplicity and ease

8:55

of implementation. Got it, that makes a

8:57

ton of sense. On this podcast,

8:59

we've talked a ton about what it is

9:01

that people are eating. We've talked about when

9:04

to eat and how that's a variable that might prove

9:06

empowering with the continual evolution of circadian

9:09

biology research and all that. But you

9:11

argue that how we eat is actually

9:13

the most important variable. What do you

9:15

mean by that? Well, our bodies are

9:17

really wise and so we can start to

9:19

dial in to some of these evolutionary mechanisms

9:21

like you talked about, you know, time restricted

9:23

eating, things like that. They can probably be

9:25

pretty helpful for us and I think there's

9:28

good emerging data suggesting that a lot of

9:30

these things are helpful. But what

9:32

we're looking at here is we're reading books,

9:34

we're listening to podcasts, we're watching YouTube videos,

9:36

we're doing all these things and we're not

9:39

listening to the most important thing and the

9:41

wisest thing which is this body. And

9:43

what I mean by that is that we're

9:45

just totally divorced from our

9:47

bodies. We don't know when we're actually

9:50

hungry. Here's an

9:52

example. So I was in my clinic, I

9:54

was working with a group of, I

9:57

think this was all women who had binge eating

9:59

disorder. So they, all

10:01

these criteria for binge eating disorder, but basically I

10:03

was working with them and I felt like I

10:06

was missing something. And it took

10:08

me several, we were doing these weekly sessions, it

10:10

took me several weeks and I realized, oh, wait

10:12

a minute, they don't actually

10:15

know the difference between homeostatic hunger, like

10:17

physiologic hunger and hedonic hunger, which is

10:19

like eat because you feel like it.

10:21

And they're like, oh yeah, I crave,

10:23

I eat. And I say, well,

10:25

how do you know when you're hungry? And they looked

10:27

at me like that was the strangest question in the

10:29

world. Because they're like, I don't know. Because

10:32

they're so, they're just weren't used to

10:34

paying attention to their body signals. And

10:37

that's a huge issue here. So the

10:39

paying attention to that aspect of

10:41

our experience, our body's gonna tell

10:43

us everything that we need to know in

10:46

terms of what to eat, how much

10:48

to eat, when to stop, et cetera, et

10:50

cetera. But we are just so divorced from

10:52

it, we don't know how to do that.

10:54

So we have to kind of recalibrate that

10:56

awareness. What has triggered

10:58

that divorce? That's a

11:00

great question. I can give you some baseless

11:02

speculation, some BS. I don't

11:04

really know, but I think a lot of it, a lot

11:06

of it is, well, if

11:08

you look at our evolutionary mechanisms, we're

11:11

set up so that when there's

11:13

something pleasant, we move toward it, when there's something unpleasant,

11:15

we try to push it away. So

11:17

our bodies often don't feel great.

11:20

Our body image often isn't great thanks to

11:22

a lot of societal conditioning. And

11:24

so somebody might look in the mirror, and they're

11:27

like, ooh, I don't look great, unpleasant. So they're

11:29

just gonna divorce themselves from their body. Often

11:32

people get distracted, they live in their heads, so

11:35

there are probably a number of mechanisms that contribute to

11:38

that. But I would guess a

11:40

lot of them share that common mechanism of,

11:42

oh, something's unpleasant, whether

11:45

it's an emotion, a physical sensation, or

11:47

just a thought, and they're

11:49

gonna push that away. And one way

11:51

to do that is to kind of divorce themselves from their

11:53

body. It isn't a completely

11:56

modern phenomenon. There's a great

11:58

short story by James. Joyce called the

12:01

painful case. And I think

12:03

the first liner in the first paragraph, he

12:05

says, Mr. Duffy lived a short distance from

12:08

his body. So

12:10

we're seeing this back, and he wrote that I think in 1914. So

12:13

we're seeing that 100 years ago, people

12:16

were still divorced from their bodies, even though

12:18

we didn't have all these things that could

12:20

distract us like social media and our phones

12:22

and things like that. Super interesting. So we're

12:24

just, we're essentially disconnected. Yeah. Man.

12:27

So what are the steps then required to

12:29

bring us back into our bodies? Yes.

12:32

Well, that's a great question. And I think, so

12:34

what we found in the research that I've done

12:36

over the last 20 years or so is it

12:38

seems to be a three step process. And

12:41

this is interesting because we kind of stumbled

12:43

upon this when we were doing our smoking

12:45

cessation studies and we were finding, you know,

12:47

five times the quit rates, gold standard treatment,

12:49

pretty good. We started making a digital therapeutic

12:51

for smoking and we were having people pilot

12:53

test it. And they came back

12:55

to me and said, hey, I'm changing my eating habits. And

12:59

I looked at them, I was like, okay, most people

13:01

gain 15 pounds when they quit smoking because nicotine is

13:03

a stimulant and all this. And they

13:05

said, no, no, no, we're actually cutting down on our snacking.

13:08

And I looked at them and I was like, can

13:10

you say that again? Did I get that right? And

13:12

I was like, no, no, I'm actually cutting down on

13:14

my snacking. I realized that there's this common mechanism that

13:17

underlies probably all habits and

13:19

it's pretty simple. And

13:21

that's the first step in kind of learning

13:23

how to step out of it. And over

13:25

the last 20 years, we've actually seen this

13:28

very clear stepwise process. We've even done studies

13:30

with focus groups to articulate a

13:32

little bit more. But the first step is

13:34

just being able to map out the habit

13:36

loop and really three elements that trigger a

13:38

behavior and a result. So

13:41

for example, with eating, with

13:43

eating when we're not hungry, let's say. Well,

13:46

let's start with what it's supposed to do. So

13:49

imagine our ancient ancestors out on the savannah

13:52

in the woods, purging for food. They

13:54

find some food. There's the trigger or the

13:56

cue, right? And then they eat the food.

13:59

There's the behavior. And then their stomach sends this

14:01

dopamine signal to their brain that says remember what

14:03

you ate in where you found it So

14:06

this learning mechanism is set up we

14:08

call it context-dependent memory formation So you're

14:10

learning something in a context you learn

14:12

where the food is in

14:14

modern day. That's called positive reinforcement, right?

14:17

Eric and Del got the Nobel Prize back in 2000 showing this is Evolutionarily

14:20

conserved all the way back to the

14:22

sea slide so very well-known mechanism And

14:25

the negative reinforcement side of it is very similar

14:28

Think of you know, you see that

14:30

you're out foraging you see the saber-toothed

14:32

tiger you run away There's the behavior

14:34

and then you're not eaten. There's the

14:36

reward then you aren't okay There's a

14:38

dangerous part of the Savannah so that

14:40

negative reinforcement is especially true in modern

14:42

day because that mechanism is still in

14:44

place and We

14:46

learn to use it when we're sad

14:48

when we're lonely when we're angry when

14:50

we're bored You know all these all

14:53

these emotions that are unpleasant And

14:55

if we happen to eat some food that

14:57

distracts us or tastes good or feels pleasant

15:00

That's gonna be better than that emotion and we

15:02

can learn to distract ourselves from the emotion by

15:04

eating So here's the you

15:06

know stress eating Comfort

15:08

food all of these things are related

15:10

to this negative reinforcement mechanism None

15:13

of that has to do with actual physiologic

15:15

hunger, right? I Don't

15:18

know about you guys, but I love

15:20

eating high quality food made from scratch

15:22

That makes me feel good And that's

15:25

why I'm super excited to introduce you

15:27

to a new partner here on the

15:29

genius life sweetgreen I love

15:31

going to sweetgreen to get an amazing salad

15:33

Which is perfect for anything that you're looking

15:35

to do in January to get the year

15:37

starting off on the right foot But I

15:39

have to tell you I always thought that

15:41

sweetgreen was exclusively a salad place But

15:44

they just launched these new protein

15:46

plates which are amazing because the

15:48

plates are full of protein Which you

15:50

know your boy loves to focus on

15:53

all of sweetgreens new protein plates are

15:55

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15:57

the miso glazed salmon plate. I Love

16:00

this dish you guys. It starts with freshly

16:02

cooked miso glazed salmon, reminiscent of if you've

16:05

ever had black cod in a fancy Japanese

16:07

restaurant. I order it basically as is, but

16:09

I double down on the salmon, so I

16:11

get a double portion of protein, and

16:14

I get the sauce on the side, and

16:16

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16:18

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16:20

week, usually in the post-workout setting, but any time

16:22

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16:25

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16:27

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16:29

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16:33

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16:35

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17:03

Enjoy, fam. And we have a bias

17:05

for negative emotions, right? Because they were

17:07

the emotions that were probably more required

17:10

our attention in a more direct

17:13

and immediate way, because obviously,

17:15

if there's a negative emotion, for

17:18

probably the vast majority of our

17:20

time on Earth on this planet was elicited

17:23

by some kind of physical

17:25

threat, the potential physical threat, famine,

17:30

something like really bad. Now our

17:33

emotions are negatively stimulated by

17:35

news media, social media, that

17:38

work email that we got, the

17:41

text message that remains unanswered, and so, but we

17:43

have a bias, right? We have this negativity bias.

17:46

Yeah, and if you, let's apply this to food.

17:48

This is interesting, well, I think it's interesting. If

17:51

you look at food, if you eat some food, right,

17:54

let's say you eat some chocolate, and

17:57

you can start tasting it and you're like, oh, that's

17:59

a new. type of dark chocolate, you know how

18:01

chocolates have all the different nuances to them and you're

18:03

like, oh, that's kind of smokey. There's this whatever. So

18:06

you can sit there and you can savor it and

18:08

you can pay attention and you know, it takes a

18:10

while to register how good it is. So

18:13

notice how slow that process is.

18:15

Okay, in contrast, if

18:17

you ingest some poison or something or

18:19

some food that's rotten, that is

18:21

ejected from your mouth before you've been consciously aware

18:23

of it because you don't have time to be

18:25

like, oh, yeah,

18:28

arsenic or cyanide does taste like almonds.

18:32

You know, so our body is even set up for

18:34

that. And you can think of that as that quote

18:36

unquote negativity bias, where it's like, hey,

18:38

get this out of here because I could die

18:40

as compared to you know, some

18:42

chocolate could be better than others but you can

18:45

take your time with this. Yeah. Wow. Super interesting.

18:47

That's that's fascinating. And it's so true. It's like

18:49

when you touch the hot stove, it's like you're

18:51

you're you're you retract your hand way

18:54

faster than your brain is even able to register that you

18:56

were touching a really hot stove. Yeah, it doesn't even get

18:58

to your brain. It just goes to love your spinal cord

19:00

and you get that reflex. Damn. Doesn't

19:02

doesn't it like your amygdala or something? Isn't

19:04

there some like interesting neuroscience there? Well, that's

19:06

afterwards. So and also the

19:08

amygdala is a complex organism. You know, I

19:10

think people tend to associate it like,

19:13

oh, there's the fear organ. It's not really how the brain

19:15

works. It's a little more complex than that. But

19:17

it certainly can help us determine

19:20

pretty quickly if there's danger if there's

19:22

not danger. Right. But with a hot

19:24

stove, for example, you're doing that reflex

19:26

before you even get to the amygdala.

19:28

Whoa. But afterwards, your brain could be

19:30

like, hey, that was, you know, that

19:32

was hot. You shouldn't do that again. Or you

19:34

should check the stove to see if it's on

19:36

next time before you put your hand on it.

19:38

Wow. So interesting. Okay, so when it comes to

19:41

breaking the hunger habit, I mean, this is something

19:43

that I personally experience all the time where I

19:45

eat out of boredom primarily. I'm not like a

19:47

big stress eater. I don't eat when I'm stressed.

19:49

But I definitely, you

19:52

know, I'm one of those people that like when bored,

19:54

I go to the fridge, I open up the fridge,

19:56

oftentimes, I end up closing it because I just wanted

19:58

to go to it, you know, But

20:01

I do feel like that is a major source

20:03

of calories for people today, right? Where

20:05

we're just eating foods with

20:09

no real physiologic necessity.

20:14

So yeah, when it comes to breaking that cycle,

20:16

I mean, what are like the first thing, what's

20:18

like the first step that somebody should take to

20:20

break that cycle when they feel as though they

20:23

are about to act on it? Yeah,

20:25

so that first step is mapping out

20:27

the habit loop and being able

20:29

to identify it. So if we don't see that we're in

20:32

a habit loop, there's no way we can step out of

20:34

it. So even recognizing, so

20:36

we could recognize all three elements, the trigger,

20:38

the behavior, and the results, or

20:41

we can simplify that and start with the behavior

20:43

and the result because the trigger is actually not

20:45

as important. I would argue that the trigger's unimportant,

20:47

where a lot of people think, oh, if I

20:49

could just avoid my food triggers,

20:51

I'd be all good. Meaning like whether it's

20:53

boredom, whether it's stress, whether it's anxiety. Yeah,

20:55

so how do you avoid boredom? You can't

20:58

really. You get bored, you get bored. Right.

21:00

So one, you can't avoid the triggers, but

21:02

more important than that, if you look at

21:04

the mechanism, that's not

21:06

what perpetuates a habit. How

21:09

rewarding the behavior is, it was what

21:11

perpetuates the habit. That's why it's called

21:13

reward-based learning. So the

21:15

triggers, certainly it sets the

21:17

process in motion, but if we

21:19

focus our energy on the trigger, we're actually wasting

21:21

energy where we could be focusing on what's

21:23

actually important, as in the behavior and the result

21:26

relationship. So that gets actually to the second step.

21:28

But does that make sense the first step before

21:30

we go on? That the mechanism is generally

21:32

the same regardless of what the trigger is. And

21:35

so, yeah. And

21:37

the mapping of that, being able

21:40

to see what the behavior is. So for

21:42

example, if we're mindlessly eating and

21:44

we can pay attention and we can notice, oh,

21:46

I'm not actually hungry, I'm just eating out of

21:48

boredom, or because that snack happens to be there,

21:50

it's like the seafood, I see food and I

21:53

eat it, type of thing. So we've

21:55

got to be able to wake up to that and

21:57

see that it's happening. That's the first step. Got

21:59

it. So to be able to identify

22:01

that when you are

22:04

triggered, you

22:06

tend to, I mean, some people might not choose to

22:08

go to the cover, to the fridge, but

22:11

to know that that is your behavioral

22:13

response, to bring

22:15

awareness to that, that's step one.

22:17

Yeah, and it's pretty straightforward, right? It's

22:20

like, oh, I'm going in to

22:22

the refrigerator or whatever, just noticing

22:24

that, like, oh, here it is again. Some

22:27

people might choose to have a cigarette. Right.

22:29

Yeah. Some cigarette, scroll on social media, check

22:31

email. There are a lot of

22:33

things that get, a lot of behaviors that get triggered.

22:35

Right. That's the general category is just,

22:37

what's the trigger that we go to when we're,

22:40

when we're triggered by the emotion or the

22:42

thought or whatever. Yeah. Why

22:45

couldn't there be good, like, positive habits? Well,

22:47

I guess for some they are. When I

22:49

get anxious or depressed, most of the time

22:51

I go to the gym, I'm

22:54

like, I remind myself that this is

22:56

when, where exercise really plays a valuable

22:58

role. So let's bookmark that. Let's

23:00

come back to that when we get to the

23:02

second and third step, because that is absolutely true.

23:05

And we can explore why that's the case and

23:07

how you've developed that as a healthy habit as

23:09

compared to an unhealthy habit. Let's do it. I'm

23:11

excited to get back to that. Okay, so we're

23:13

about to go into step two. Yeah. So

23:16

step two is where it gets really interesting, right? Cause you can

23:18

map out a habit, not that hard

23:20

to do. And often when my patients or

23:22

the folks in our programs, or even my

23:24

students start mapping these out, they

23:26

come back and they're like, how did I not notice all of these

23:29

habits that I have? Cause then they start to see them everywhere. And

23:32

I'll just highlight, you know, most habits that

23:34

we have are either neutral or helpful. Like

23:36

going to the gym, helpful habit. But

23:38

some of these pesky ones, they get in

23:40

the way of us living that healthy, healthy

23:43

life. And so the second step, I

23:46

think of this as the beginning of the

23:48

end because you can't go

23:50

back once you start to see this. And

23:52

what I mean by this, let's use smoking

23:54

as a starter here. When

23:56

my patients come back and they taste

23:59

and. smell their cigarettes, they're like, oh, this

24:02

is really crappy. They can't

24:04

unsee that. It's like Santa Claus,

24:06

you pull down on Santa Claus' beard and suddenly you've

24:09

lost your belief in Santa Claus. You

24:11

can't get that back. And

24:14

so this process in general, we

24:16

think of this as disenchantment, where

24:18

you become disenchanted with the old

24:20

behavior. And again, the one

24:23

way to do this is to bring

24:25

awareness to what's happening. So we need awareness to

24:27

map out a habit loop. We need that awareness

24:30

to become disenchanted. Let's

24:33

see, a food example, okay. So

24:36

there are, let's say that there's a

24:38

new bakery that opens up in

24:40

my neighborhood. And I go in

24:42

there and I have a certain, I

24:45

know how much I like certain types of chocolate

24:47

cake, let's say. And so

24:49

I see the chocolate cake in their display case and I'm like,

24:51

oh, that looks good. I try some. So I eat the cake,

24:53

there's some awareness. And it's the best chocolate

24:55

cake I've ever had. I get

24:57

what's called a positive prediction error in

24:59

my brain, meaning it's better than expected.

25:02

And I get a dopamine spritz and it says, remember

25:05

this, right? It's just like surrounding food in the forest.

25:07

It's like, oh, there's a good food source. So for

25:09

me, it's like, oh, there's a good chocolate cake store.

25:12

So I learned good place to get cake.

25:15

On the other hand, if I eat the cake,

25:17

I'm like, meh, I've had better. I

25:20

get what's called a negative prediction error.

25:22

Got it. Same type of dopamine spritz,

25:24

slightly different mechanism in terms

25:26

of learning the positive versus the negative, but basically the

25:29

same parts of the brain. And

25:31

I learned, hey, this isn't such great cake.

25:33

Don't bother to go back to this bakery.

25:35

Notice that I've learned something either way, as

25:37

long as I've paid attention. Now

25:40

we can leverage this to

25:42

break bad habits, but I wanna highlight something

25:45

first. If you look at the equations for

25:47

this, the mathematical equations for this, none

25:50

of them involve willpower as a

25:52

variable. So that's really important

25:54

because a lot of people think, oh, if I wanna

25:56

break bad habit, I just have to use my willpower.

26:00

That is, I think that's, that's, it's

26:03

quote unquote helpful for companies that want you

26:05

to sign up for their weight loss programs

26:08

because they say, hey, you know, whatever this

26:10

diet is, usually it's a calorie restriction

26:12

diet. As long as you restrict calories, you're gonna

26:14

lose weight. I learned that in medical school,

26:17

that is a fact, it is true. How

26:21

you do that isn't about just like

26:23

using your willpower. It

26:25

is more myth than muscle. And at best,

26:27

if you look at the parts of the

26:29

brain that are involved in cognitive control, the

26:31

prefrontal cortex, it's the first part

26:33

of the brain that goes offline when we're hungry,

26:35

when we're stressed, when we're angry, when we're anxious.

26:38

Can you see the problem here? Yeah, the rational

26:40

part of our brain is the part of our

26:42

brain that just so happens to go offline when

26:45

we are triggered. Absolutely, so

26:48

I wouldn't put my money on that if you're trying to

26:50

break a bad habit. This

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28:27

enjoy. Yeah,

28:29

calories in, calories out. I mean, it works.

28:32

I mean, it is the fundamental

28:35

scientific, mathematical, biological truth underlying

28:37

weight loss, but as a

28:39

strategy, it's terrible. Yeah,

28:41

yeah. And so now, the willpower

28:44

folks, hopefully

28:47

will catch up with the neuroscience,

28:49

which says, place willpower off

28:52

to the side, let's leverage the strength of

28:54

the brain. And so back

28:56

to those mathematical equations, no

28:58

willpower in the variables, but that error

29:00

term that gets changed to happen, that's

29:03

that positive and negative prediction error. And

29:06

notice how the only thing that's required for

29:08

that is awareness, which is great. It's not

29:10

like you have to learn some fancy technique

29:12

or some concept, you just have to pay

29:14

attention. Well, a positive prediction error would seem

29:16

to me to reinforce

29:18

a bad habit, whereas a negative prediction error

29:20

would be what you would want to encourage

29:22

somehow. Well, this is where we can.

29:25

Right, like if you text your ex, and

29:28

you get back with your ex, and you have sex with your ex,

29:30

and the sex is better than you remembered, that's not

29:32

helpful in terms of breaking that bad habit, right?

29:36

If it's worse than you remember, I

29:38

mean, that could take you a few months of

29:40

not wanting to text your ex.

29:42

Yes, so going

29:44

with that example, if

29:47

you think of the far end of

29:49

the spectrum of bad habit addiction, right,

29:51

continued use despite adverse consequences, so you

29:54

text your ex, right, and you're like,

29:56

you have great breakup sex, and then

29:58

you're like, and then everything goes to hell from

30:01

there, right? Continued use despite adverse consequences. You

30:03

kind of conveniently forget like, oh, yeah, this is

30:05

why we broke up. And then three weeks

30:07

later, you're like, oh, this is a good idea.

30:10

So you can see how there can be continued

30:12

use despite adverse consequences going on there. The

30:15

adverse consequences piece, if we pay attention,

30:17

that's gonna help us learn, hey, maybe

30:20

texting your ex isn't such a great idea. And

30:23

it's not because like, I shouldn't do it. It's

30:25

like we feel into what it was like the

30:27

last time we did it. And

30:29

it's not necessarily the great breakup sex piece,

30:31

but it's everything else, all this equivalent of

30:34

that. Got it. Right? So bring awareness to

30:36

the adverse effects. Yes, and that's where it

30:38

comes in with eating as well. We did a

30:41

study in my lab. We have this app called

30:43

Eat Right Now where we can actually build in

30:45

a tool to help people pay attention as they

30:47

overeat. Okay, again, very, very

30:49

wise body. We wanted to test to

30:51

see how quickly that reward value dropped

30:53

below zero and people shifted their behavior

30:55

with overeating. Do you

30:58

guess how many times it took for somebody to

31:00

have that reward value drop below zero?

31:02

Wait, so repeat the question. Yeah. So

31:05

you had how many

31:07

times it, what, once? It

31:11

was close. Yeah, so these are people, some of

31:13

them had been overeating for decades, right? So you

31:15

think, oh, it might take a long time. 10

31:17

to 15 times of paying attention when

31:20

you overeat and that reward value is

31:22

below zero, right? So it's still really

31:24

low after a lifetime of chronic overeating.

31:26

Yeah, which makes sense because our brains

31:28

have to be very adaptable to ever-changing

31:30

environments, right? So if it took you

31:32

20 times to get chased by a

31:34

tiger to learn that it's dangerous, you

31:36

probably wouldn't survive. Right. That's

31:39

a great point. That's a great point. Okay, so

31:41

really, I mean, awareness. Awareness is

31:43

key. Yeah, yeah. And that's

31:46

where we can actually, we can double

31:48

down on awareness, but let's

31:50

get at this, finish out the

31:52

second step first. So as we pay attention,

31:54

for example, when we overeat, our body says,

31:56

dude, why are you doing this? This doesn't

31:59

feel very good. I never had somebody

32:01

come back to me and say, oh,

32:03

thank you, Dr. Brewer. Now I didn't

32:05

realize how great cigarettes taste or how

32:07

good it feels to stuff myself at

32:09

Thanksgiving. That just

32:11

doesn't happen because our body's like, hey,

32:13

you're ingesting toxin when it comes to

32:15

smoking a cigarette. And it's

32:17

like, hey, you don't need this many calories all

32:19

at once. This isn't helpful. So

32:22

our bodies will tell us, and if

32:24

we can just pay attention when they're trying to

32:26

signal to us, like put up the

32:29

white flag, stop eating, then we

32:31

can do that pretty quickly. And if we can

32:33

just remember that, that's gonna

32:35

help us become disenchanted with the behavior.

32:38

So we start with a very simple question,

32:40

which is having people ask themselves, what am

32:42

I getting from this? As

32:45

they're eating that next overstuffed bite, how

32:47

does it feel in my body? Not,

32:49

I shouldn't overeat, not thinking about it.

32:51

So that's a question that people should

32:53

be asking themselves and get used

32:56

to asking themselves, what am I getting from this? Yes, absolutely.

32:58

What am I getting from this? And I think of it

33:00

this way, the feeling body is

33:02

much stronger than the thinking brain. So what

33:04

am I getting from this not in a

33:06

thinking way, like, oh, I'm eating too many

33:08

calories, but feeling, because their body is saying,

33:10

hey, you're eating too many calories. Do you

33:12

see the difference? They gotta feel into it.

33:15

Yeah, wow, I love that. I

33:17

went to a Brazilian steakhouse last night, incredible

33:19

place in Los Angeles called

33:22

H&H. All grass-fed meat,

33:25

but I definitely overate. I overate last night

33:27

and was paying quite

33:30

the price afterwards. My stomach just felt

33:32

distended. And I

33:34

definitely regretted going

33:37

overboard to the extent that I had. And

33:41

so, yeah, this is

33:43

a really helpful tip because I feel like next

33:45

time I'm gonna be more inclined to ask myself,

33:48

when in the moment, right? What am I getting

33:50

from this? Yeah, and one way to

33:52

think about this, and I talk about this

33:54

a bit in the hunger habit is we can find

33:56

our pleasure plateau. So as

33:58

you eat that first bite. especially

34:00

if you're hungry, your body's like, oh, thank you, this

34:02

is great. And you really enjoy it. You eat the next

34:04

bite, you eat the next bite. And over time, especially

34:06

if you don't shovel it all in really quickly, because

34:08

it takes about 15 to 20 minutes to

34:11

register society, if you don't

34:14

shovel it all in, you can start to notice with

34:16

each bite that the pleasure of

34:18

the same food is different. It

34:21

starts to wane, right? It's not as

34:23

pleasurable. And so we can start to

34:25

see we're hitting that pleasure plateau where our body's like,

34:28

okay, that's enough. But if we don't

34:30

pay attention, we're gonna go over that cliff of

34:32

overindulgence, which it sounds like you hit it. Yeah,

34:34

I definitely hit it last night. I was not

34:36

feeling good. And in the

34:38

moment, in the moment, I probably would've, like if I,

34:41

you know, I just

34:43

didn't have a lot of awareness around the discomfort that

34:45

I was feeling. Instead, I was more thinking about, well,

34:48

I'm eating lots of protein, which is great,

34:50

because earlier that day, I know that I had a

34:52

really intense workout, and so I was like, oh, this is

34:54

probably beneficial for me. More protein, more protein. But

34:57

that led to me actually just overeating

34:59

in general. Yeah, so if

35:01

you can remember that, I mean, think back

35:03

to last night. How excited are you right

35:05

now, if you were back at that steakhouse,

35:08

to do the exact same thing? Super

35:10

excited to get into it. Yeah. Yeah. But

35:13

how about that overindulgence piece, the cliff? Oh,

35:15

yeah, definitely would not eat as much as

35:17

I did last night, yeah. So how much

35:19

willpower did that take? To

35:22

just have that realization? Yeah. None.

35:25

So this is a zero willpower thing,

35:27

and you just demonstrated it beautifully. But

35:30

what about, there's a cognitive bias,

35:33

is it like rear view mirror bias

35:35

or something? I forget the name of

35:37

it, but it's essentially like the further

35:39

something gets from your memory, the more

35:41

we tend to paint that experience with

35:44

rose-colored hues. Yeah. You

35:47

know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. Right now,

35:49

remember how bad it was feeling so distended

35:51

and full last night, but a week from

35:53

now, I'm not gonna necessarily have remembered that.

35:56

Absolutely. Right? Yes. So that is

35:58

a very true phenomenon, and so it's really... important

36:00

to do two things. One is. Recency bias, is

36:02

that what it is? Yeah, yeah. It's

36:04

like a form of recency bias. Yeah, yeah. So

36:06

where you tend to remember the things more

36:08

vividly if they're recency bias. Yeah,

36:11

yeah, yeah. So as things get in the rear

36:13

view mirror, if we've only done

36:15

it a couple of times or we haven't

36:17

paid attention, or we kind

36:19

of conveniently forget, because our brain's like, oh, just remember

36:21

the good stuff, right? Then

36:24

it's gonna be harder to change. But

36:26

if we can really dial that in and

36:28

recall what it was like the last time,

36:30

really feel into it, not just like, oh,

36:32

that was great being at the steakhouse, but

36:35

like, oh, I felt like crap afterwards. Then

36:37

it makes it easier to bring that

36:40

recollection up the next time and then

36:42

predict, okay, how's this gonna be if

36:44

I do the same thing? The

36:46

way that I think about this is, if you,

36:49

in science, if you look at, if you've got a

36:51

data point that's an anomaly, but

36:53

you've done the same thing over and over and over again, your

36:56

brain's gonna be like, well, maybe that's an anomaly.

36:58

So I'm just gonna ignore it because it's not,

37:00

it's not what I'm used to. But

37:02

if you do it over and over and over,

37:04

suddenly that signal to noise ratio gets really

37:06

clear and you're like, oh, that's actually a true

37:09

signal. So if it's a

37:11

small difference, it takes a long time to

37:13

get that signal to noise ratio to be

37:15

good enough that you can trust it. But

37:17

if it's a big thing, for example, if

37:19

you got food poisoning at a certain restaurant,

37:22

that's like, okay, wow, that was real.

37:25

Suddenly you're gonna avoid that restaurant after one

37:27

use, right, after one meal. So

37:29

the magnitude of the effect

37:32

makes a difference. And we can actually, I

37:35

wouldn't say artificially, but we can amplify that

37:37

magnitude by paying attention. If we really pay

37:40

attention every time we do whatever it is,

37:43

those data are gonna be more solid and Bob is gonna

37:45

remember that more easily. Yeah, that makes a

37:47

ton of sense. Are there any, because

37:49

this is a lot of like internal work, any

37:52

external tools that might play

37:55

a supportive role, like journaling, for example.

37:58

Some people find journaling very helpful in

38:00

our programs. We have this online community where people

38:02

can keep journals. And so

38:05

for some people, that's really helpful. And what

38:07

that does is it helps

38:09

them articulate their experience. So

38:11

I'm glad you highlight that this is internal work

38:13

because really the key to change

38:15

here is internal work. It's

38:17

about being curious about what our

38:20

direct experience is. Journaling

38:22

can be very helpful talking to somebody, it's

38:24

like, oh, this is what I noticed. Like we talk

38:27

about your Brazilian steakhouse thing. You're gonna be able to

38:29

recall that more easily next time because we actually

38:31

talked about it, which actually brought that memory up

38:33

because you have to remember it. And like, what

38:35

did that really feel like to actually describe it

38:37

to me? Yeah, it's not often that I feel

38:39

like I've overeaten steak. But

38:42

last night, it was my brother's birthday, so we went

38:44

out and we did it pretty big. No

38:47

regrets. No, I do definitely regret

38:49

eating so much, but great place. Very

38:53

important. So, okay, let's circle

38:55

back and talk about when it comes to solidifying

38:58

a healthy habit. So like,

39:00

for example, a lot of

39:02

people, especially now as we get into the new year, are

39:05

gonna be probably really focused on

39:09

adopting healthier habits, like whether it's the

39:12

gym membership that they're signing up for or

39:14

a new fitness program.

39:16

How do we then encourage these

39:19

healthier habits and make

39:21

it more likely that we're gonna stick to them ultimately?

39:23

Good question. So this is where this third step comes

39:26

in, and we can actually use your gym example as

39:28

an example of that. So knowing

39:31

that our brain is going to

39:33

become disenchanted with old habits through

39:35

that negative prediction error, and by

39:37

simply paying attention and seeing that, you know,

39:39

eating three pieces of cake is not as good

39:41

as eating one, or overeating the steak just doesn't

39:44

feel very good, we can

39:46

then start to dial it back when it

39:48

comes to eating, where we

39:50

can see, oh, you know, like if I

39:52

stopped eating here, I would still enjoy the

39:54

steak, probably enjoy it more because

39:57

I'm not regretting it afterward. And

39:59

so, just not overindulging is already in

40:01

that third step category. I call this

40:04

finding the bigger better offer, right? And

40:06

so our brain is always looking for

40:08

that bigger better offer. It's like, okay,

40:10

if this isn't that great, give me

40:12

something better. And that better could

40:14

simply be not overindulging. It could be, you

40:16

know, for me, I started to pay attention

40:18

when I was eating gummy worms. I used

40:20

to be addicted to that. I remember that.

40:22

I remember that

40:25

the first time we tried it. So

40:27

it's like, if I pay attention

40:29

to eating over eating, or eating actually now

40:31

it's eating any gummy ones, my body's just

40:33

like, this is not

40:35

worth it. And then I go to natural sources

40:38

of sweetness, like blueberries, you

40:41

know, just no brainer, like my brain

40:43

would, it's highly prefers blueberries. So

40:45

whether it's not overindulging, whether it's finding

40:47

healthier alternatives, again, our body is very

40:49

wise, it's going to tell us, you

40:51

know, blueberries probably co evolved with us

40:53

to be this perfect mix of sweetness

40:55

and pop and sugar, you

40:58

know, like that, that fiber and sugar ratio

41:00

and all that. They're amazing and they're good

41:02

for your brain, right? So on top of

41:04

that. Yeah. So we that's when

41:06

it comes to eating, we can just pay attention,

41:08

you know, how much what am I eating? When am

41:11

I eating? Am I actually hungry or not

41:13

hungry? And that bigger, better offer comes in

41:15

all those flavors where it's like finding healthier

41:17

foods because are not because we should eat

41:19

them. But because our bodies like do that

41:21

was good, do that again, the amounts right

41:23

stopping when we're full. And then

41:26

also eating when we're

41:28

hungry and not eating when we're not hungry,

41:31

we can apply the same thing to say

41:33

going to the gym because well, let's if

41:35

I could interrogate you a little bit. Yeah.

41:38

What Why do you think you form the habit of going to the

41:40

gym? Well,

41:43

similar to the blueberry concept,

41:46

I might just generally feel like my

41:48

brain really benefits from it. My mental

41:50

health benefits from it. I

41:54

could be feeling lethargic, a

41:57

sense of mental cobwebs, anger.

42:00

I'm anxious, depressed, but

42:04

I feel like I'm a different person leaving the

42:06

gym than I am typically walking into it. Yeah,

42:09

it's a state change for me. Those

42:12

are the cognitive and mental benefits, but

42:14

then also from a physical standpoint, I

42:16

love the confidence that it gives me.

42:18

I love what it does to my

42:20

physique, consistent regular resistance training. Yeah,

42:25

there are a number of different reinforcement

42:27

aspects of it that are reinforcing. You

42:30

just described a beautiful example of finding those

42:32

bigger, better offers. If you compare

42:35

being sluggish, feeling out of

42:37

shape, mentally dull

42:39

to what you just described, it's a

42:42

no-brainer. For

42:44

you, I don't want to presume

42:46

your experience, but when you're feeling lethargic,

42:49

what motivates you to go to the gym? Yeah,

42:51

that is a good question because intuitively,

42:53

you might think that the gym would be

42:55

the last place that you want to go

42:57

to when you're feeling lethargic. Ironically, even though

42:59

you're expending energy in the gym, it's

43:02

one of the few areas where you

43:05

spend and in so doing, you actually

43:07

gain more. It's a really

43:09

odd thing. It is. When you

43:11

just recall the last time you go to the gym, how does

43:13

that feel? When

43:16

I recall the last time I went to the gym?

43:18

Well, the last time I went to the gym was

43:20

yesterday. I had an epic back workout. I had an

43:22

awesome pump as a result and

43:24

I destroyed my lats and

43:26

my biceps. I feel really good today. I

43:28

was going to say, you're smiling. I didn't even see it in your

43:30

eyes. Just recalling

43:33

that, you can just by—and I

43:35

say this for anybody that is struggling to motivate

43:37

themselves to find healthy habits—just recalling the last time

43:39

we did the healthy habit can be enough of

43:41

a kick in the pants in a good way.

43:43

It's not even a kick in the pants. It's

43:45

kind of like a tug. It's like, oh, come

43:47

on, this is fun. This is good. That's

43:51

that positive prediction error that says, hey, this is better.

43:53

Keep doing it. That's how we form

43:55

healthy habits. It's not through willpower. It's

43:57

not by telling ourselves, oh, it's January 1st. you

44:00

know, sign up for the gym that I'm again, not

44:02

gonna go to because I haven't set up, you know,

44:04

I haven't figured out how my brain works. Yeah. But

44:07

it's really about just dialing it in and asking,

44:09

well, what was it like? What's it like to feel like I'm

44:11

in shape? It feels pretty good. It

44:13

feels pretty good. Well, yeah, I think it's, cause, and

44:15

you've, you've had, I've obviously brought

44:17

awareness to that cause it's something that I genuinely

44:19

love, but take something really, you

44:22

know, seemingly mundane,

44:24

like just drinking a glass of water every

44:26

morning. Like to bring awareness to something that

44:28

you, I typically don't bring very much awareness

44:30

to. I just maybe out of, out

44:32

of habit, I do it, but

44:35

you know, it feels really good to hydrate

44:37

your body after eight hours of not

44:39

having a drink, right? Sleep is a

44:41

dehydrated event. So drinking that water

44:44

in the morning, well, it's really refreshing. And

44:46

I feel like I'm giving my body, you

44:48

know, the hydration that

44:51

it needs after such a long time.

44:53

And it's like a really primordial ancient

44:55

thing. We've, we've co-evolved all organisms require

44:57

water, right? And

44:59

so you're giving your body something

45:01

that it, that it evolved to

45:03

require and appreciate. And,

45:06

and I'm very grateful that I have, that

45:08

I now get delivered to my house before

45:10

I was reverse osmosis, purifying my water. But

45:13

now I get spring water from

45:15

like a super pristine source delivered in glass straight to

45:17

my house every week. And I get to drink that.

45:20

And I'm so grateful that I get to drink that.

45:22

So it's like, I don't normally think about that. Yeah. So

45:25

notice how you are describing paying attention

45:27

to what it's like when you rehydrate

45:30

in the morning. That's very

45:32

different than telling ourselves or watching some YouTube

45:34

video, like, oh, you should drink 32 ounces

45:36

or whatever, you know, like, and the number's

45:38

always changing. The bottom line

45:40

is drink water. It's good for you, right?

45:42

Not too much, not too little, right? That's

45:44

about, you know, I'm thinking Michael Pollan's

45:47

food, you know, food rolls that basically boil

45:49

down to like, don't eat too much. If

45:52

you can't pronounce it, don't eat it type of thing. Yeah.

45:55

So here with water, if you pay attention,

45:57

and I'm smiling because this is the same thing that I

45:59

do. It's like I feel thirsty in

46:01

the morning. That's unpleasant. I

46:03

drink some water and it's pleasant because

46:06

my body's like, oh, thank you. And

46:10

that's all you need is really that awareness

46:12

because that awareness will set the habit to

46:14

do it again in the future. Yeah,

46:18

it is a very interesting exercise to think

46:20

about where you, everybody

46:23

obviously has positive

46:25

things that they do every day, right? That

46:27

you can bring increased awareness

46:29

to and then

46:33

conversely, the thing that you want to integrate

46:35

as a new healthy habit and

46:37

to really kind of bring, cultivate awareness around

46:39

that as well. Yeah, totally. However mundane it

46:41

may seem. Yeah, and the

46:44

beauty of this is that it takes

46:46

one thing, awareness, right? First

46:48

step, map out the habit loop,

46:50

awareness. Second step, ask what

46:52

am I getting from this awareness? Third

46:55

step, notice how good it feels

46:57

to step out of the old habit and

46:59

into a new habit, awareness. There's

47:03

a lot of, there are many factors that are, I

47:06

think, that

47:08

are not super helpful when it comes to cultivating

47:10

greater awareness, right? Like our devices, we used

47:14

to allow our minds to wander, and

47:18

introspect, and now, whenever we're not

47:20

being stimulated, right? We're

47:26

almost like, we go into withdrawal from our

47:28

devices and from that stimulation. And

47:30

so that's a big problem, I think, like the

47:33

just the always on nature of our devices and

47:35

social media and the like. Yes,

47:38

and the good news is, if that's a

47:40

habit, we can break it in the same

47:42

way. Not to, there's all this hype

47:45

around, oh, I should just delete this or go

47:47

on a dopamine fast or stop

47:49

doing this. All of that

47:51

is divorced from our bodies. When

47:54

we do that, I say, okay,

47:56

how well did that work? That

47:59

was terrible. Yeah. And

48:01

then I went right back to it. We call

48:03

this the abstinence violation effect and addiction treatment, where

48:05

it's like, you've forced yourself

48:07

not to use substance, which could

48:09

include, you know, let's say social media.

48:12

And then our body's just like, I can't wait, I can't wait,

48:14

I can't wait. And then as soon as we slip up, you

48:17

know, it's like off

48:20

to the races, you know, that we're

48:22

like, okay, back to the old habit and

48:24

then some, because our body's like, oh, I

48:26

want more of this, I want more. Because,

48:28

you know, we crave what we can't have.

48:31

Is there any data on how many

48:33

times someone must do something

48:36

before it becomes hardwired as a habit? It's

48:39

a really good question. Here,

48:41

there's a lot of mythology

48:43

on the internet about that. What's the

48:45

one that you've heard the most? I'm just curious. How

48:49

long it takes to form a new habit or break

48:51

a bad habit? Form a new habit, yeah. You know,

48:53

a number, a specific number doesn't come

48:55

to mind, but there was like an oddly

48:57

specific number, I feel like, associated with it.

48:59

The last time I looked into the lore

49:01

surrounding that. Yeah, I think the greatest lore

49:03

out there, and this is all these algorithmically

49:05

derived things where it's like, oh, if something's

49:07

at the top, it's gonna stay at the

49:09

top because it's at the top, not because

49:11

it's true. Yeah. So the one that

49:13

I've seen the most is 21 days, right? 21

49:17

was on the tip of my tongue, but I don't want it. Interesting. That's

49:20

it. So that is based on a plastic

49:22

surgeon who wrote a book in the

49:24

1960s who just

49:26

offhandedly talked about how long it took his

49:28

patients to get used to their new nose

49:30

jobs. Interesting.

49:34

So, not exactly scientific. So odd,

49:36

yeah, that that would then be connected to like,

49:39

habit formation. Yeah, well, three weeks is just

49:41

a nice number. And then you say it

49:43

a couple of times on the internet and

49:46

then people reference it and then suddenly it

49:48

blows up and that becomes the truth, the

49:50

ground truth. It's like Malcolm Gladwell's 10,000 Hours

49:52

of Mastery, right? There's no science there. But

49:55

it's a good book. Yeah, it's a great book. I

49:57

love Malcolm Gladwell, no shade. Do

50:00

you think heuristics like that are

50:02

helpful or hurtful? I

50:05

don't think, well anything that's not accurate

50:08

that might actually send somebody in the

50:10

wrong direction is not gonna be helpful.

50:13

So think of it as somebody's like, well 21 days,

50:15

why didn't it work? Is there something wrong with

50:17

me? And they start blaming themselves. It's kind of

50:19

like the calories in, calories out thing. Oh, I

50:21

can't stick to it. I need more willpower. There's

50:23

something wrong with me. So

50:26

it's detrimental in that respect. And

50:29

then people aren't seeking the truth

50:33

and they're just blaming themselves and thinking they

50:35

should work harder. So it's, I

50:37

mean, I'm also a scientist. Like I wanna know

50:39

the truth. I wanna help the truth get out

50:42

there. And I want the truth to help people

50:44

change their lives. And so if

50:46

we know, hey, the truth

50:48

is, and

50:51

this was in our study where it took 10 to 15 times.

50:54

So the more

50:56

you pay attention, let me back up

50:58

and say, there are a huge number

51:01

of variables that affect this. So somebody's

51:03

genes, somebody's environment, somebody's upbringing, socioeconomic

51:05

status, all this stuff affects whether

51:07

somebody's gonna be able to break a bad habit,

51:10

form a new habit, right? Availability,

51:12

all these things. So it's very variable

51:14

depending on the person. And

51:16

if you look at it, what the

51:19

most constant thing is, the more we

51:21

pay attention to how rewarding a helpful

51:23

habit is and to how unrewarding an

51:25

unhelpful habit is, the faster we're gonna

51:27

make that change. Interesting. So the greater

51:29

the degree of awareness that we're able

51:31

to bring to it, the more, I

51:33

guess, the faster we'll

51:35

be able to cement that habit as a

51:37

habit. Yeah, it's like that signal to noise

51:39

ratio thing. You're getting that clear difference where

51:41

your brain's saying, okay, this is unambiguous. I

51:43

know this is really, this feels good. It's

51:45

like you talking about drinking water, going to

51:48

the gym. You smile when you talk about

51:50

it, right? Because you can get that feeling

51:52

so easily because you've logged

51:54

that so many times. Yeah, I

51:56

can literally transport myself back to like

51:58

the, just after the workout. workout yesterday

52:00

when I was like, man,

52:02

I really hit like every major

52:05

muscle group of my posterior chain,

52:08

upper body. And

52:10

I just felt really good. And then how good

52:12

I felt afterwards eating like a really

52:15

high protein lunch and to

52:17

cement those to lock those gains in even

52:19

though we know that, you know, there's

52:21

really no such thing as an anabolic window or at

52:24

least it's a lot less important than it had been

52:26

considered in the past. Yes, I really like

52:28

that whole like thing. I

52:31

love the whole routine of waking up in the morning, drinking

52:34

water, having a coffee, eating some like,

52:36

you know, combination of protein carbs, getting

52:38

an amazing workout in and

52:40

then afterwards hitting like lunch for a

52:42

really healthy, high protein fiber

52:45

rich lunch. Yeah, I totally get it.

52:47

Yeah, it's like the best way to I feel like

52:49

I'm on top of the world. Yeah, yeah. So

52:51

great. I'm a man of simple needs, you

52:53

know? Well, I think we all are and we make

52:55

life more complex than it needs to be. Totally.

52:59

I mean, God, your lips to God's ears. So

53:01

true. Why do we do that? What's

53:04

the neuroscience underpinning that? Well, I'll give you

53:06

some more baseless speculations from the BS. So

53:08

here, I think when something

53:10

so we if if something

53:13

works and we don't know how it

53:15

works, we start to fall into this

53:17

correlation equals causation fallacy where our brains

53:19

like, oh, I did that. That

53:21

must have caused it. And then we do it again

53:23

and it doesn't work. And our brain goes into a

53:25

tailspin and says, well, that's supposed to work. Why didn't

53:27

it work? And it says, well, maybe I'll add this

53:29

on or maybe I'll do something slightly differently. And

53:32

so we're constantly chasing our tail running

53:34

around in life, trying to

53:36

do things that are going to stick, that

53:38

are going to be consistent. Our brain loves

53:40

consistency. And so we

53:42

make life complex because we haven't figured

53:45

out how simple life actually

53:47

is. So I think one way to put

53:49

that is if we

53:51

don't know how brains work, we can't work with our

53:53

brains. Once we know how our brains

53:55

work, we can not only work with our brains, but we

53:58

can put our brains to work for us. And

54:00

then we start to see that everything

54:02

becomes simpler and simpler and simpler because

54:04

we're not doing eight things to make

54:06

us happy or make us feel content

54:08

and fulfilled. We're seeing very clearly what's

54:11

doing it and we're repeating that over and over. And

54:13

then it's like, oh yeah, of course I'm gonna do

54:15

this. You don't have to

54:17

go and try to figure out how to

54:19

find happiness. It's actually chasing us. We're

54:22

just not paying attention. Happiness is chasing

54:24

us. Yeah. So true. It's

54:27

an act. You

54:30

literally have to be

54:33

open to receiving happiness. You do. I

54:35

like how you put that, for sure. Wow. Let's

54:38

talk a little bit about nicotine because you've

54:41

done all these interesting studies with regard to smoking and this

54:43

is something that I've

54:46

been dabbling with, low

54:48

dose nicotine. Okay. And

54:51

I find I subjectively feel like I have

54:53

a pretty noticeable cognitive benefit from it.

54:55

I haven't taken any today and I try not to do

54:58

it every day, which is

55:00

fairly easy to me. I don't have an addictive personality

55:02

or anything like that. But

55:05

I do notice that when I take low dose, like

55:07

a three milligram knick-knack tab, which is one of these,

55:09

I have no affiliation,

55:12

but they send me them and I

55:14

find them to be really helpful. Most

55:18

noticeably with regard to verbal fluency for me,

55:20

which is something that I already feel like

55:23

I have a good, I mean, I'm a

55:25

professional communicator. I've gone on my whole

55:27

career at this point. I've been on TV and whatever,

55:29

but when I take a little bit, like a low

55:31

dose of it, I feel like it's a, yeah,

55:34

it just has a really powerful nootropic effect. Well,

55:37

it makes sense. I mean, the physiology

55:39

of nicotine, their nicotinic receptors, their subunits

55:42

of these receptors that are all worked

55:44

out, this acetylcholine system that

55:46

affects the dopamine system. So

55:49

that physiology has been worked out and

55:52

it's a nicotine is a stimulant.

55:54

So too much of a

55:56

stimulants, you know, you get the jitters, you know,

55:58

things can go. but

56:01

maybe a little bit as you're highlighting, you're

56:03

probably tickling those pathways and you're probably dialing

56:05

it in yourself for how much is helpful

56:08

for you. And so

56:10

you're gonna get those benefits because it's

56:12

going literally right to your brain and

56:15

it's doing what it's, there

56:17

are these nicotinic acetylcholine receptors in your

56:19

brain that are getting fired and then

56:21

it's affecting the downstream physiology. So it

56:23

makes a lot of sense. Yeah, and

56:25

speaking about habits, it is highly addictive.

56:27

So I'm not recommending that y'all go

56:29

out and

56:31

follow suit, but it's, at least from

56:34

my, the, you know, I haven't,

56:38

I've done a very cursory look into

56:40

the literature on nicotine and it's hard

56:42

to parse the health effects that

56:46

are derived from nicotine from the

56:48

obviously very negative health effects of smoking.

56:50

Right. Do we, do you, are you aware

56:53

of any data on that? Like, is it killing

56:55

me or is it, you know, because there is also

56:57

some thinking that nicotine by itself, in and of itself

56:59

is a, like a neuro, potentially

57:02

neuroprotective compound. Yes, I, and I'm not

57:04

an expert here, but you're highlighting a

57:06

couple of important things. One is with

57:08

cigarettes, it's really hard to separate out

57:10

the nicotine from the 5,000 other chemicals

57:12

in a cigarette. And most of those

57:14

are not good for you, right? So

57:16

that's pretty, that's been clear for decades.

57:19

So when people can now isolate and deliver

57:21

nicotine in a very clean way, they can

57:23

start to study this more carefully and

57:26

get better data. I

57:29

haven't seen any definitive studies and

57:31

I, one way or the

57:33

other, but I haven't, I've certainly haven't seen anything

57:35

that's like, oh, any amount of nicotine is bad.

57:37

Like if you look at the alcohol studies, it's

57:39

really interesting. Now more and

57:41

more we're seeing consistent studies suggesting like

57:43

no level of alcohol is good for

57:45

us. Right. From a physiologic

57:47

standpoint, I mean, so sociologically and things

57:49

like that, you know, it's more

57:51

nuanced than that. For somebody who's met some people

57:53

for their mental health, you

57:56

know, and again, as an addiction, I'm not

57:58

recommending it, but just as. As an example,

58:01

alcohol is pretty definitive, at least right

58:03

now, science always changes, it's the nature

58:05

of science, but I don't

58:08

think that's gonna get reversed just with

58:10

the sheer volume of studies out there.

58:12

I don't think there are enough studies on nicotine, and

58:16

it's a little harder to do those studies because

58:18

so many people drink alcohol, you can

58:20

actually do large scale studies, whereas

58:22

fewer and fewer people are smoking, and

58:25

very, very few people are actually

58:27

taking something as clean as a

58:29

nicotine tablet because vaping also, it's

58:32

unclear what the health

58:34

risks of vaping are, just because even though

58:36

it's been around a while, it's still new

58:39

enough that we don't know, hey,

58:41

what are gonna be the long-term effects on

58:43

somebody's lungs when they're taking this superheated, steam-type

58:45

thing with this changed nicotine compound, because

58:47

they have to change it a bit

58:49

to get it to aerosolized and all

58:51

that. What are the long-term effects

58:54

of that going into your lungs? I

58:56

don't wanna be one of the people 20 years down the road

58:58

and be like, oh, I shouldn't have been vaping. Certainly

59:01

probably better than smoking cigarettes, but

59:04

ultimately, I love to see my patients off

59:06

of cigarettes and then off of the vaping,

59:08

if they're using vaping as a transition. Yeah,

59:11

no, it makes total sense. I can't wait. I

59:13

hope those studies ultimately come

59:15

out. Nicotine is also not a

59:17

compound that can be

59:19

patented as far as I know, so

59:22

there's not a ton of money, probably

59:24

in just studying that one isolated compound.

59:27

Yeah, it's a good point. You follow the money and people

59:29

are like, eh, I can't make money out of it, I'm

59:31

not gonna. Yeah, yeah, I mean,

59:33

and I do know that even isolated nicotine,

59:35

like it can increase your blood pressure. It's

59:37

not something that you wanna mess with if

59:40

you have preexisting hypertension or anything like that.

59:42

It is a stimulant, yeah. It is a

59:44

stimulant, yeah. But

59:47

I think I have, at this point, like I've cultivated

59:49

a pretty healthy relationship with it. I definitely don't do

59:52

it every day, but I

59:54

have noticed some benefits from it, so. Very,

59:56

very interesting stuff. So who did you

59:58

write the hunger habit for? such an important

1:00:00

book and it's a bit of a departure from

1:00:02

your previous books, right, which are purely focused on

1:00:04

mental health. This is more about getting our, like

1:00:10

nutrition under control, which is I think such

1:00:12

an important topic. It's an important issue. Yes,

1:00:14

well, one, I think we often divorce our

1:00:16

mind and our body and so we're like,

1:00:18

oh, mental health, oh, physical health, it's

1:00:21

really just one human, and

1:00:24

the mental affects the physical, the physical affects the

1:00:26

mental. So even if

1:00:28

you just look at it this way, this food-mood relationship,

1:00:30

where if you eat crap, you feel like crap, or

1:00:32

if you feel like crap, then you're drawn to eat

1:00:34

crap because you're in the habit of doing that. So

1:00:37

it's really hard to separate out the mental

1:00:39

and behavioral health aspects of things. So

1:00:42

that being said, with eating, to

1:00:46

me, eating is

1:00:48

both a physical and a mental thing.

1:00:51

Where in terms of affecting our physical health and

1:00:53

affecting our mental health. And I

1:00:55

think as I mentioned earlier, I kind of

1:00:57

stumbled into this field as

1:01:00

an addiction psychiatrist was focusing on first

1:01:02

alcohol, cocaine use disorder, then nicotine with

1:01:05

cigarettes, and then people

1:01:07

were saying, hey, could you help me change my

1:01:09

eating habits? And so stumbled into

1:01:12

this and realized, hey, we have this clinical

1:01:14

obesity epidemic, and all the

1:01:17

things I've learned in medical school aren't helping people

1:01:19

because it's getting worse, could we apply this

1:01:21

to eating? And so

1:01:23

I wrote it basically for anybody

1:01:25

that has an unhealthy relationship with

1:01:27

eating. And

1:01:29

that's why I call it the hunger habit because it's like

1:01:31

we can be habitually overeating, we

1:01:34

could be stuffing down our emotions with eating, we

1:01:37

could be eating mindlessly. There

1:01:39

are all these different ways that it just becomes habitual.

1:01:42

So I wrote that basically for

1:01:44

anybody that is not aware when

1:01:47

they're eating. Yeah,

1:01:49

it's very crucial

1:01:51

to put the spotlight on mindset

1:01:55

and because that is really the most important.

1:01:58

That mind pump, which is a huge. fitness

1:02:00

podcast And we

1:02:02

we collab a lot. We're good. We're super close

1:02:04

friends That's something that they always

1:02:07

bring up is the fact that you can't

1:02:09

change somebody's behavior in a way that is

1:02:11

enduring Without without

1:02:14

tackling the mindset first. Absolutely Understand

1:02:16

agree. Yeah, it's super important. Well, I love

1:02:18

it, man Thanks for coming in and thanks

1:02:21

for sharing your your brilliant insights and knowledge

1:02:23

and wisdom with us Where can

1:02:25

people connect with you on social media and we're gonna pick up the book? So

1:02:28

my website is probably an easy place

1:02:30

dr. Judd comm do JD comm I'm

1:02:33

on Instagram dr. Period JUD on

1:02:35

formerly known as Twitter now X Judd

1:02:40

But Instagram probably the easiest place and

1:02:42

and my website dr. Judd comm and

1:02:44

you can pick up the book I want to

1:02:46

support independent bookstore. So on my website, there are

1:02:48

a bunch of independent bookstores listed But of course

1:02:50

they can get it at the behemoth like Amazon

1:02:52

and others love it. Love it So if you're

1:02:55

out there trying to change your your Unhealthy

1:02:57

dietary habits definitely check out the

1:03:00

hunger habit It's

1:03:02

awesome. And you're the guy to have written it.

1:03:04

So thanks for doing that. Yeah, my pleasure and

1:03:06

thanks for coming in Thanks guys for listening Share

1:03:08

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1:03:11

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1:03:15

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