0:03

Hello

0:15

and welcome to the Good Friends of Jackson

0:17

Elias, a regular podcast about Call of Cthulhu.

0:19

Horror films. And horror gaming in general. I'm

0:22

Paul Fricker. I'm Scott Orwood. And

0:25

I'm Matt Sanderson. And this episode

0:27

we're looking at delusions in

0:29

Call of Cthulhu. But before we

0:31

get into all that interesting stuff, what

0:33

is going on? As

0:35

a great man once said by the pricky of

0:38

my thumb, something interesting this way comes on the

0:40

first weekend of March, I understand, yes? A

0:43

weekend with good friends, the next

0:45

convention organised by our lovely listeners

0:47

is coming up very soon. The

0:50

convention itself will start, as Matt just mentioned, on

0:52

the first of March, running through to the third

0:54

of March. But an

0:56

important date before then, a couple of

0:58

days after this episode goes

1:00

out, will be player signups. GM

1:03

signups have already closed at this stage, but if

1:05

you want to sign up for any of the

1:07

games that have been offered, you can do so

1:09

between the 15th and the 22nd of February. And

1:14

don't worry if you miss that date or

1:17

if you wanted to offer a

1:19

game but missed the deadline for

1:21

GM signups, because there will

1:23

be pick up games running throughout the

1:25

convention and also there will be

1:28

panels running throughout the convention as well. So

1:30

you can come along and just enjoy those

1:32

even if you don't want a game. And

1:42

now on to our main topic, delusions

1:44

in Call of Cthulhu. During

1:47

our discussion of psychological horror, we thought we'd see

1:49

how we might put some of that to use

1:51

in our games. Well, we've discussed

1:53

the role of insanity in Call of Cthulhu way

1:55

back in episode 136. Christ,

1:58

I feel old. This time

2:00

we're drilling down specifically into what happens when

2:02

the investigators can no longer trust their senses.

2:05

Let's start off then with just

2:08

going through what delusions

2:10

mean mechanically in Call of

2:12

Cthulhu. You

2:14

seem like the best person to explain this for. How

2:17

does it all work? It's a

2:19

side effect of sanity loss. So

2:21

when a investigator suffers

2:24

sanity loss, if they suffer sufficient

2:26

loss of sanity points, then

2:29

they can suffer what's termed temporary

2:32

or indefinite insanity. Either

2:34

one of these conditions triggers

2:37

an initial frenzied bout of madness or

2:39

some sort of event that the player

2:41

has limited control of. I mean, it's

2:43

a discussion between the player and the

2:45

keeper as to how that plays

2:48

out. Once that's over,

2:51

there's this situation of them

2:53

suffering this loss of sanity.

2:56

And that's reflected in them remaining

2:58

vulnerable to what we term

3:00

delusions. Now

3:02

delusions can be anything

3:05

that the keeper wishes to put in. Strictly,

3:07

they're hallucinations, I would

3:09

say. So there's

3:11

a differentiation between hallucinations, which is

3:14

what you perceive, and that's what

3:16

the keeper is feeding you, and

3:18

delusions which are in your head.

3:21

So an example would be an investigator

3:23

is driving along or somebody in the

3:25

real world is driving along and

3:27

you keep seeing the same car following you. And

3:31

when you're in the supermarket, you see people

3:33

taking notes on you and stuff like that.

3:36

Those are hallucinations. The

3:38

delusion is how you interpret it.

3:41

The delusion is, oh my God, the government is

3:43

keeping track of me. But

3:45

for all intents and purposes in Call

3:47

of Cthulhu, delusion is both of those

3:49

things combined. That's interesting, you're putting

3:51

it that way because it occurs to me that

3:54

When I'm running Call of Cthulhu,

3:56

I will quite often feed into

3:58

that second aspect. Delusions as

4:01

one is describing the sensory aspects

4:03

of the hallucinations that I will

4:05

sometimes prime. The players are least

4:08

drop hints about how they might

4:10

interpret them, this of seeding that

4:12

paranoia oh that's delusory states the

4:15

asking direct questions battle what you

4:17

think this means all as you

4:19

as a really conspiring against that

4:22

cursing. Just a get all that

4:24

going. Yeah. Good. I

4:26

think it's good to phrase them as questions.

4:28

So yeah, what do you think softening is

4:31

that guy in the suit to the Keys

4:33

from the government detail gills on their neck.

4:36

Things like that have put it into

4:38

the players hit it is a player

4:40

can read the L a one you

4:42

not forcing on the player but what

4:44

The investigate seats is always limited really

4:46

to what the keeper says you know

4:48

so as to keep the says old

4:50

as a guy with gills on his

4:52

next there and yeah well. As

4:55

a player, I. Can guess. Oh

4:57

maybe this is just the delusion. Or

5:00

maybe it isn't. Maybe is a deep

5:02

one keeping track of it. But yeah,

5:04

just go back to the mechanics. how

5:06

they work. That's how they work. So

5:08

for as long as you're suffering that

5:10

stay, your investigator is prone to delusions.

5:13

So. Zero

5:15

Those two. Types

5:18

of incense he mentioned temporary insanity

5:21

an indefinite since I'm sick and

5:23

in definition sense he seems be

5:25

the big one sentence right? So

5:27

in definition sense to use as

5:30

the name implies, On to the

5:32

character has. An.

5:34

Event such his medical treatment,

5:36

psychiatric treatment or perhaps and

5:39

arrested development phase representing a

5:41

sufficient passage of time for

5:43

them to come out of

5:45

that delusory states that on

5:47

the annual state and that

5:49

happens when they lost assists

5:52

as a social sanity over

5:54

the course of one day

5:56

or at least before they

5:58

go to sleep. But

6:01

you made reference to delusions

6:03

potentially carrying it's a in

6:05

conjunction with temporary insanity as

6:07

well. So. This might be

6:10

something up in getting wrong and caught a suit

6:12

all this time. It had had his athletic. Well,

6:15

it's temporary or indefinite. Is.

6:17

Just the duration. Yeah, the effects

6:19

of the same is just the

6:21

duration. Spoiler. Both temporary.

6:24

But temporary is a short term

6:26

thing normally up to like while.

6:29

We say boy default kind of one d Ten

6:32

hours but yeah, you can play it by ear

6:34

ready? I would encourage keepers just play it by

6:36

ear and you know it might be the get

6:38

to that. Sane and. If

6:40

you also gone by and the keep

6:42

says you're over that now in Destiny

6:44

as you describe Skies is for a

6:47

longer period of. A longer

6:49

duration the essentially that mechanics and

6:51

a some misremembering The mechanics or

6:53

are essentially the same in terms

6:55

of effects on the investigator. That's

6:58

interesting because it's just probably been

7:00

running it wrong. move his time

7:02

because the way that I handled

7:05

temporary insanity is i deal with

7:07

the Batman is which if it's

7:09

a real time one is the

7:12

D ten rounds and then I

7:14

don't necessarily considers a D. Ten

7:16

hours of sets off to sad

7:18

the saw you saying that even

7:21

after your after that initial batch

7:23

of madness there is a D

7:25

ten hours the after him that

7:27

temporary. Insanity in which to

7:30

see character is susceptible to

7:32

delusion since on. Yeah.

7:35

Oh right yes I have been running at

7:37

Romo this time of just dealt with that

7:39

initial d ten rounds and then moved on.

7:42

That's. What? the rule book says us? While

7:44

the rules sites I think. Going.

7:47

Back to. Over ten

7:49

years go by me what we got

7:51

while I was discuss guess when throughput

7:53

the Keeper rulebook together. Previous.

7:56

Editions of college who have

7:58

been really. Of.

8:00

The it was a kind of the same game but the. The.

8:03

Guidelines on how to

8:05

handle sanity. And the

8:07

loss of sanity where law. Will

8:10

eat well as also via A

8:13

but there were a lot vega

8:15

less defined, less defined so. We.

8:17

Defined it. More. Closely.

8:21

Because. I think previously it

8:23

was just oh your cart suffering in

8:25

silence hey. What? Does that mean I

8:27

don't I have a as keep her or play with which

8:29

is going to decide. Whereas. Now

8:32

you've got things to mechanically use in

8:34

that game and got durations and sorts,

8:36

but even then it's is something that

8:38

feels like it should be. Tired.

8:41

Somewhat to the scenario to the situation and so

8:43

on. such thing as to be quite a lot

8:45

flexibility both for the keep her in the plants,

8:48

that of. Discuss. And sort

8:50

of agree. What? what? Those. Outcomes

8:52

are. And. You mentioned a

8:54

few months ago about it's. What

8:57

options are available to the

8:59

plays when they think their

9:01

characters and catching inspiration? I

9:04

mean you comply it a few as you

9:06

can play it as a player may be

9:09

on on planet maps game and the Mets

9:11

the keep ernie says something that as a

9:13

player I kind of. Pretty. Clear

9:15

to me that or are pretty

9:17

strongly suspect it's the delusion that

9:19

his feeding me. And

9:22

as apply I can. Play.

9:24

Along with that and might might investigate,

9:26

totally accept it because that's what lap

9:28

saving. Or. I can make them fight

9:30

against it. And if I want to

9:32

to so to check that when I can

9:34

call for what's called a reality check role

9:37

which is my investigators sir. Choice.

9:39

Of a moment of realization said wait

9:41

a minute, this doesn't make sense. I.

9:44

Roles Who disbelieve. Exactly.

9:47

Is. the some hero if you succeed

9:50

you have a moment of clarity as

9:52

you see what's real you've you see

9:54

through the the hallucinations the delusions cheap

9:56

see what's actually going on the or

9:59

you get As I said, like

10:01

a moment of clarity and you're

10:03

no longer subject to delusions

10:07

until you lose further sanity points.

10:11

If you fail that reality check role,

10:13

that sanity role for a reality check,

10:15

then you lose a single point of

10:18

sanity which then can

10:20

then lead to another bout of madness and

10:22

the delusions remain. So you maybe just rather

10:25

than digging your way out, you've dug a hole deeper.

10:28

So when a character there

10:30

makes a reality check, do

10:33

you normally handle it in terms of

10:36

them kicking back

10:38

against a specific thing that made them

10:40

think, oh hang on, this isn't right?

10:43

Or is it just them trying

10:45

to counteract that general feeling

10:48

of unreality? The reason I

10:50

ask is you could end

10:52

up with situations where a character

10:54

is perhaps experiencing some

10:57

delusory state but then they encounter something

10:59

that's really there but

11:01

just weird and

11:03

try to disbelieve that. Let's

11:06

say they've been seeing

11:08

strange things in the shadows and so on and

11:10

then at some point they encounter a hideous monster

11:13

and think, oh hang on, that can't be real

11:15

and that's the point at which they decide, hang

11:17

on, I want to make that reality check. How

11:20

would you handle that? Yeah, that's

11:22

a good point. Let's see, they're going

11:24

to ask for the reality check role which is quite unusual

11:26

I have to say, I think we should touch on that.

11:29

I don't think I've ever had a player ask for

11:31

one actually. I think I

11:33

have but it is unusual. I think maybe

11:35

because we don't tend to offer them.

11:39

As keepers we know they're there perhaps

11:43

but we don't often profit

11:45

them to the players, we don't often suggest

11:47

them. I guess maybe if the player sort

11:49

of said, is this real? I'm not sure

11:52

I believe this. I think this is just

11:54

a, have you had this situation Matt

11:56

where you've had players ask for reality

11:58

check roles? It's not something

12:00

I tend to get is mainly because I don't

12:02

play with delusions. But. Also.

12:05

I do remember our said play offs

12:07

for a reality check when you were

12:09

fight us in the rules when we played

12:11

through who couldn't. right? So.

12:14

Now I've asked reality sex but as a as

12:16

a keeper I don't play with delusions. This doesn't

12:18

come up for me. So.

12:21

What can you remember what that instance was in

12:23

in the game we're playing. He. A from

12:25

member right? It was quite late in the

12:27

campaign with a particular item that we need

12:29

to have. Lots of blood that were was

12:31

use activate it. Hello! I'd gone out to

12:34

acquire blood and we are as far as

12:36

I was concerned. I was going to like

12:38

a butcher's I was going to get some

12:40

jerry cans filled up with this stuff and

12:42

then bring it back and then I think

12:44

it was a case of yours may you

12:47

can you got room for sec. Well I

12:49

guess somewhere with the other players was I

12:51

come back in and see that completely disgusted

12:53

and horrified faces. Reacting to me

12:55

as you described my reactions and I'm thinking

12:57

I'll just walking with these cans the of

13:00

god knows, no sidewalks and the more what

13:02

the hell's going on here And it was

13:04

that that kind of prompted both. Something must

13:06

be up here. they're oversee seeing something that

13:09

I'm not saying. So I asked the route

13:11

check in that he printed it sucks described

13:13

how I was absolutely drenched in blood carrying

13:16

these two buckets that was sloshing around row

13:18

read stuff all over the floor. thus hasek

13:20

precipice of his as. Well

13:23

I have easy of or something. I heard some

13:25

sunlight I think we were under the British Museum

13:27

at the time or somewhere that else is. a

13:29

D set up with his bucket of blood. Okay,

13:34

yeah, That. Was remember rope

13:36

then the currency. you play math.

13:39

Without. Any effects of sounds He lost

13:42

you my of just turned up with buck

13:44

his blood Anyway that wouldn't surprise me greatly.

13:46

Who these delusions? I'll just do it anyway.

13:48

the ass. So now you said something very

13:50

interesting that to me my you said you

13:53

don't use delusions in the game. Is.

13:56

Up right. Yeah, and of. partly.

13:58

because it's it's time management thing,

14:01

a lot of the time I'm playing the games or running

14:03

games at conventions or in a very short time span. And

14:06

the problem I've got with them is twofold. But

14:09

one, they are a massive distraction, they take

14:11

away from the central part of the plot. So I'm saying

14:13

I'm going to have to dedicate a quarter

14:15

an hour, half an hour to just resolving this one

14:18

effect of a failed sand roll, which frankly, I

14:20

haven't got the time for when I'm running a

14:22

game in an already tight time scale. And

14:25

the second one being that it can really

14:27

affect the kind of dynamic of the player

14:29

group. If you've got one player

14:31

that's suddenly suffering from these delusions,

14:34

and the rest of the players either don't believe them,

14:37

or worse, come to the point where

14:39

they don't trust them, they don't want to get them involved in

14:41

anything that's going along, and it can really split the group. And

14:44

it leaves that one player affected, almost

14:47

ostracized as a result of that one failed role. And I

14:49

would hate that if I was the person on the receiving

14:51

end. So I just don't want that to come up in

14:53

a game that I run. For example,

14:55

you just relayed you were the person on the receiving

14:58

end of that. Yeah, until I saw

15:00

through it. Did that have

15:02

a negative impact on the game for you? Or was

15:04

that okay? Because I mean, I've never really, I don't

15:06

think we asked that at the time. If

15:08

I remember right, that same campaign ended with everyone

15:10

turning their guns on me and saying you're not

15:12

leaving the ice alive. Well,

15:17

my question still stands. No, no,

15:19

in that particular instance, I could see how it

15:22

could have gone very badly. But

15:24

thankfully, it didn't go badly for me. But it's

15:26

also I would want to avoid that situation entirely

15:28

for another player to be even potentially put in

15:30

that situation. Yeah, and I think

15:32

it's worth stating like, we're talking,

15:35

I think probably before even the creation of

15:37

the X card. So there were no safety

15:40

tools, we did talk to each other, but

15:42

there weren't like formal safety tools. And nowadays,

15:44

I think, you know, we'd have, if we

15:46

were using something as simple as X card,

15:48

then there are ways to avoid situations where

15:50

people would have things imposed on them that

15:53

they're not comfortable with. It also

15:55

occurs to me that we must play with very

15:57

different kinds of players because the people

16:00

I play with regularly, they

16:03

absolutely embrace stuff like this.

16:06

I know

16:08

a fair number

16:10

of them who will just count down

16:12

the sand points until they hit that

16:15

one fifth, because they

16:18

enjoy role-playing characters who are in

16:20

that state. They enjoy the weirdness

16:23

that can bring to the game. And

16:26

as far as the dynamics, the conflicts

16:28

that can bring up, that

16:31

just adds to the overall

16:33

game. Maybe

16:35

it's a fundamental philosophy thing. When I'm

16:37

running a game, as I've said before, I

16:39

don't tend to think of it in terms of

16:42

a story or a plot. I'm playing to see

16:44

what happens. I'm playing to see the interactions between

16:46

the characters. And these

16:48

delusions, these conflicts, these moments

16:50

of uncertainty and so on,

16:53

enhance all that. They make it a more

16:56

interesting game. It's not like they're a distraction

16:58

from the plot. They are the plot. I'll

17:01

just sit firmly at the other end of the bell curve and completely

17:03

disagree with you there. They get in the way of everything I want

17:05

to try and do at the table. Some

17:07

of those examples you were given, Matt, you

17:09

were saying because you're in part, at

17:12

least, because you're time limited. So

17:15

do you feel the same whether you're running an

17:18

open-ended campaign? I can very

17:21

much see that that is a consideration if you're

17:23

running a one-shot and you've got limited time,

17:25

you've got a few hours. Because it can

17:28

cause more content

17:32

in the game, more content in the story because you've

17:34

got people going off and doing their own thing, you've

17:36

got division among the players, which as Scott says, can

17:38

be a fun aspect, but

17:40

it can also elongate potentially.

17:42

It might bring it to

17:45

a very quick close, but it can also open

17:47

up a lot more avenues of play, which on

17:49

the one hand is fun, but on the other

17:51

hand, if you're trying to be disciplined and fit

17:53

it into maybe a three-hour slot, then maybe

17:56

that's problematic. So how

17:58

about with longer form games, Matt?

18:01

Yeah, it's still almost the same thing. It's just

18:03

the time constraint issue isn't there particularly as much,

18:05

although there'll still be the constraint of, oh, I'd

18:07

like to get this done in a session, or

18:10

I'm kind of working out how long things are

18:12

going to last in general rather than just keeping

18:14

dragging on and on. So

18:16

I don't want to have a, like I'm running a

18:19

two-headed serpent at the minute for my third

18:21

or fourth time through. I can't remember. One

18:24

of the things I found there is I still

18:26

don't really embrace delusions as much, even though we've

18:28

had characters that have lost a whole load more

18:30

than, but I think it doesn't really

18:32

fit into the pulp model as well. Oh,

18:35

really? It's a good excuse for

18:37

them to get pulp talents or

18:39

the insane talents, but again, it

18:41

just feels like a distraction. Oh, in the middle of this

18:43

high action scene, and now we've got to resolve you having

18:46

this completely different worldview of

18:48

what's going on, completely detriment to

18:50

whatever's actually going on. And

18:52

it's already a lot to juggle and it's just something I don't want

18:54

on my plate. Hmm. Oh,

18:57

that's interesting because I guess I kind of sit in the

18:59

middle. I use them

19:01

sometimes, but often, like

19:03

particularly then if I'm running a

19:05

convention game, I might use them.

19:08

I might not. It just depends on how things

19:10

go. I guess it depends how many balls

19:13

you've got to juggle in the air, really. I

19:15

feel sometimes they're a fun thing to throw

19:17

in, but they are, I guess, coming

19:19

back to the rules, they

19:22

are something that the keeper can choose to

19:24

add into the game. As

19:26

a keeper, you can choose to play it

19:28

as Matt described and not use

19:30

them. That's one extreme. Or

19:32

you can throw yourself into them as Scott's

19:35

described and use them a

19:37

lot. Yeah, because I think a

19:40

lot of what makes Lovecraftian

19:43

horror and cosmic horror work

19:46

is that sense

19:48

of unreality, that sense of weirdness

19:51

that, can I trust what I'm

19:53

seeing? This is beyond

19:55

human comprehension. What is this going

19:57

to do to my perception of reality? reality

20:00

even what I think it is anymore and

20:03

I think just

20:06

not using that in the game misses

20:09

a big part of what

20:11

makes Call of Cthulhu

20:13

different from other horror games or at

20:15

least Lovecraftian horror different from

20:17

other types of horror. I

20:20

think you still have players and all their characters

20:22

ask themselves those questions or you don't

20:24

think they should be then have the burden of the

20:26

GM having to invest all the amount of time and

20:29

effort to be able to tailor their perception for

20:31

just that single player with the affirmation

20:33

concerns have already arisen coming from that that you

20:35

could potentially could really split the player base with

20:37

them on one side of that split and everyone

20:39

else on the other. I

20:41

don't think it's necessarily a massive

20:44

rabbit hole to sort of go down

20:47

I think it can just be an

20:49

incidental thing that illustrates

20:52

what the person is going through that they

20:54

can't maybe trust what they're seeing. I've

20:57

got one or two examples I've kind of

20:59

recalled and some of those can open up

21:01

whole vistas of investigation and

21:03

so on in the game. I think

21:06

others perhaps less so they're just sort of

21:08

incidental little things that you might throw in

21:10

that the player might not

21:13

even really react to and people might not

21:15

even really realize it's this illusion. There

21:17

is a scale but as you know I think you're right

21:19

Matt it can open up a rabbit hole

21:21

if that's the right

21:23

phrase. But I feel

21:25

like Matt may be representing a

21:28

very extreme form of delusion. Delusions

21:31

don't have to be realities

21:34

you know it is entirely wrong

21:37

they can be just little things that you

21:39

throw in for atmosphere and

21:41

seasoning. It can just be was that

21:43

a shadow you saw on the doorway

21:45

or someone standing there watching you it

21:47

can be you over here

21:49

a conversation at the bus stop are

21:51

they really talking about human sacrifice or

21:53

is that just because it's what's on your mind

21:55

at the moment. Those are

21:58

still delusions. I was

22:00

talking to somebody a while back and I

22:02

was a little surprised when they said this

22:04

that they felt

22:06

like the use of delusions could

22:09

be a way of punishing

22:11

players, which is

22:13

not something that I do.

22:17

And I know anecdotally something that historically and

22:19

probably contemporary as well does occur in role

22:22

playing games. You know, the DM or the

22:24

keeper, you know, they've got it in for

22:26

their players and I'm really going to show

22:28

them tonight and you know, if they do

22:30

this thing, then they've got to be punished.

22:33

So they learn. I mean, it's

22:35

just that's just, I don't

22:37

know, wrong behavior. Yeah, pathological.

22:39

Yeah. But I mean, it is

22:41

definitely, as I say, I want

22:44

to say historically, but it is an aspect

22:46

of the way some people play games, which

22:48

is just strange to me. I

22:51

think it's something you tend to see

22:53

more in inexperienced GMs. I

22:55

think by the time you've been GMing for a while, I'd

22:58

like to think, learn that that stuff just

23:00

isn't a good idea. But the

23:02

people I'm talking about were younger players, so

23:05

I don't think they were kind of playing

23:07

with old hands, but I think their interpretation

23:09

was that this could be used to

23:11

punish players. So I just want to put it out there

23:13

that there's a few things

23:15

that I want to sort of stress. It's

23:18

not there to punish players. And

23:21

also it's not there to make fun

23:24

of mental illness in any way or

23:26

form. Sanity mechanics in

23:28

Kolukkutulu, people should treat mental

23:30

illness with the respect it deserves. And

23:33

whilst the sanity mechanics touch

23:36

on that, we

23:38

removed the diaphonic terms

23:40

that were in some previous editions. Because

23:43

it occurred to me, there's things like depression

23:45

and so on. We don't have that in

23:47

Kolukkutulu. You'll find it mentioned

23:49

in older editions perhaps, but it's not in

23:52

the most recent edition. Now that's twofold reasons

23:54

for that is, one, because

23:56

it's something that real

23:58

world people suffer with. you have to

24:00

deal with and it's not pleasant and we don't

24:02

want that in the game. But

24:05

also just from a purely game point of

24:07

view, having

24:09

an investigator suffering depression, I

24:13

don't really see any good

24:16

gaming aspects that would come out of that. I

24:18

can see how it can be explored in fiction

24:20

in novels and TV

24:23

and films and so on. They can explore

24:25

all manner of things. But in a game,

24:27

I think if you and your

24:29

group have a serious

24:32

discussion and you want to touch on those

24:34

kind of themes, well, great, fine. But

24:37

by default, the game doesn't touch on that. But

24:39

delusions, I think, are something very different. But

24:41

at the same time, I can see

24:43

why people might want to avoid them in

24:45

games because they've

24:48

perhaps had experience either firsthand

24:50

or from people they know

24:52

in their lives of psychotic

24:54

illness. Yeah. It

24:56

does stir up those feelings

24:59

of not being able

25:01

to trust your own senses or having

25:03

to help someone who has

25:06

lost touch with reality to some

25:08

degree. I've been in that position

25:10

myself and it's a scary thing to have

25:12

to deal with. But it's

25:16

always going to be down to the players. I

25:18

mean, sometimes, yeah, exploring these things

25:20

in a game or dealing with them can be fun.

25:23

Sometimes it can be cathartic and sometimes it can be

25:25

triggering. But if you stand to the

25:27

players to let you know what it is to them

25:29

and for you as the GM

25:31

to act appropriately, if someone says they don't

25:33

want delusions in their game because they've

25:36

spent their life dealing with a relative who

25:38

had a psychotic illness, then

25:40

that's entirely fine. Absolutely.

25:43

And we've just discussed how you can

25:45

play the game and as

25:47

Matt illustrated, not use them. Your

25:50

game's not going to suffer for that. That's

25:53

an interesting point you make, Scott, that you've

25:56

suffered that yourself, But

25:58

you seem to embrace the in the game

26:00

now. Not saying that you should or you

26:02

shouldn't. Talk. Talk to other

26:05

people as well who have suffered with mental

26:07

health. Problems. Or.

26:09

Mental illness and. To.

26:11

Them for some of those people in

26:14

paw. That's. Partly

26:16

the appeal of the game else us

26:18

a very personal. Thing. So

26:20

them. But it tends to be like. They

26:24

like exploring that with. A.

26:26

Group that they don't trust. And

26:29

that life? You know how those discussions with.

26:32

Also. Fundamentally from my

26:34

point of view and and I'm

26:36

not saying I speak for anyone

26:38

elses had mental health issues of

26:40

use. Bits Of From my point

26:42

of View is a fun release.

26:44

It's make believe food and is

26:46

a very different thing from the

26:48

reality of mental illness and I

26:51

can enjoy it for what it

26:53

is without having to worry about

26:55

whether it's realistic or whatever else

26:57

likes my office and expenses the

26:59

same way as I can enjoy

27:01

the. Sooner. The

27:03

deal with aspect says psychological

27:05

horror and mental illness without

27:08

thinking below as I said

27:10

yes and sap the is

27:12

it's have wrong. I

27:15

can enjoy a nice fight in a

27:17

game. Yes, This. Is a

27:19

facade selflessness? I realized. you know,

27:21

whether it's physical or mental peril

27:23

and the effects of that. Real.

27:26

Life and and fiction are two very different

27:29

things. Something.

27:31

Else father the reason having them in

27:33

their the if you want to use

27:35

them they give you something concrete you

27:37

can do when people are suffering the

27:40

effects of have some see last give

27:42

you something the keeper. Some. Because

27:44

do otherwise that indefinite. Period.

27:46

Of insanity. Well, Or.

27:49

What war Is that? What we do with that? The

27:51

player can take it upon themselves

27:53

to reflect the in the why

27:55

they role play as they see

27:57

fit. Otherwise, a H. If.

27:59

I. don't do that, it feels a bit like,

28:02

well, it's not really having

28:04

any game effect. Mmm. To me.

28:07

And also, I think it

28:09

can serve other purposes in the

28:11

game. You

28:13

can use delusions and

28:15

these hallucinations and so on

28:18

as ways of echoing other things that are

28:21

happening in the game. Maybe they're things from

28:23

the character's backstory, or maybe they're stuff that

28:25

the characters are encountering in the game. I

28:27

think you threw in the example earlier, Paul,

28:30

of, oh, yeah, does that guy really have

28:32

gills on his neck? And

28:35

let's just say you've got a

28:37

character who's gone to Innsmouth and they're

28:39

beginning to see some

28:41

of the things that are going on beneath

28:43

the surface and they're perhaps

28:45

losing sanity as a result. You

28:48

could use delusions

28:50

as almost ways of foreshadowing

28:53

some of the things that

28:55

they're going to encounter later.

28:58

You could use them as

29:02

ways of perhaps

29:04

incorporating elements of

29:06

the character's background into that.

29:10

So let's say that they've

29:12

got a fraught relationship with

29:14

their family, that they don't

29:17

trust their brother. And

29:19

they at times look

29:22

at people in Innsmouth and sort of think,

29:24

oh, hang on, that looks a bit like

29:27

my brother. Maybe he's

29:29

one of them as well. And that

29:31

could be completely delusory, but it's then

29:33

adding that element of intrigue into their

29:35

family relationship that may have repercussions down

29:37

the line. And

29:39

so I think you can really

29:41

enrich the narrative using these elements.

29:45

Yeah, and I think part of the appeal is

29:47

they tend to be improvised. And

29:50

I think as with most of those sanity-related

29:54

side effects, they

29:56

tend to be improvised. But I think just

29:58

relying on random tables, and we have

30:00

some of those in the core book. That's

30:03

kind of, for me, a last resort

30:05

using the random tables, because sometimes

30:08

if you just use a random table, it

30:11

can throw up results that clash

30:14

with what's going on, and

30:16

it doesn't fit. That can result

30:18

in uncomfortable laughter, or

30:20

it just doesn't perhaps

30:23

work. It's a sort of clash.

30:25

So I think it's better to think

30:27

about those side effects and delusions is one of

30:30

them, and for the

30:32

player to think about

30:34

how they role play their character as well, in

30:37

terms of what might come

30:39

out of the situation or

30:42

what might come out of the

30:44

investigator's backstory. And ultimately, if

30:47

you can pair those two together, then

30:49

I think that's the best outcome.

30:53

I can't remember the last time

30:55

I used the random tables for

30:57

a bat of madness or delusions

31:00

or anything like that, because, well,

31:04

it's partly that clash that you mentioned,

31:06

but even if it's not

31:08

a clash, even if it's just something that

31:11

is unrelated, as

31:13

opposed to directly oppositional to the

31:15

narrative, then it feels

31:17

flat and uninteresting. But if you

31:19

can work the general situation

31:22

and the character's background and their state of

31:24

mind isn't sold into it, that's

31:26

why these days, when I

31:28

have characters that go into bats of madness,

31:30

I do what we were talking about earlier

31:32

and just ask them questions about

31:35

the overall situations or about

31:37

what's really happened here. What

31:40

sounds as motivation? Can you trust what's happening

31:42

there? What are you

31:44

going to do about this

31:46

unreal situation that you

31:48

find yourself in, perhaps even

31:51

describing a delusion as part of

31:53

the reality that they're perceiving? I'm

31:56

just trying to think of a concrete example because

31:58

that doesn't explain it very well. very well. Yeah,

32:01

alright, you're in this musty

32:04

old house, you've encountered

32:06

this burnt corpse that has

32:10

triggered a bout of madness because

32:12

it's particularly hideous. And

32:15

you can smell smoke in here now, I mean

32:17

no one else is reacting to it, but you

32:19

can smell smoke and there must

32:21

be a fire around here, but everyone else

32:23

is ignoring it, what are you going to

32:25

do about that? And

32:28

I think those kinds of questions,

32:30

those kinds of invitations to roleplay

32:33

are much more effective than roleplay,

32:36

you've now got

32:39

pyrophobia. It puts

32:41

it back into the players hands, it

32:43

puts the agency in the players hands

32:45

and they can say, oh

32:47

there is smoke, yeah I'm sure, I'm going

32:49

to open the windows, I'm going to go

32:51

searching for it or whatever, or they can

32:53

kick back against it and say no, no,

32:56

that's just in my head, I'm just imagining

32:58

that because I saw this burnt figure, it's

33:00

not real, it's not real, and deny it,

33:02

you know? And then the sense

33:04

that the house really is on fire. Well,

33:09

you can't win. Yeah,

33:11

yeah, I mean

33:13

I've got one that I've kind of got in mind

33:16

that I think this is going back

33:18

to the same example, some of those

33:20

ones are fixed in my mind, Matt, from when

33:22

we played the game in the Arctic

33:24

many years ago, you know, they're a

33:26

remote base, it's very much like the

33:28

thing and things have gone badly and

33:30

they've smashed the radio and one

33:34

of the characters comes

33:36

back and I think they hear

33:39

a voice, they go

33:41

into a side room and

33:43

it's the radio room and all the

33:45

radio is trashed but oh, now there

33:47

is a voice faintly coming through it

33:49

and I'll go and pick up the

33:51

radio and listen, I don't know, it's

33:53

a woman's voice, Calling station,

33:56

you know, whatever it was called and

33:58

they start talking to them. Because

34:00

I looked at the carriage see the backstory

34:03

see and and one of the things I

34:05

don't was a locket with up the light

34:07

wife's. Picture. In it. So.

34:10

The voice coming over the radio is that

34:12

light wife because up something they haven't bought

34:14

into the game. it hasn't come into play

34:17

so I can. The guys in the opportunity

34:19

to bring nine supply or wealth getting the

34:21

opportunity kind of leave it in reading, but

34:23

I just felt like that was combining stuff

34:25

that have been established in the game. with

34:28

something from the backstory and

34:30

that was. A

34:32

thing for both of us, it was.

34:35

well, why poignant seen this kind of

34:37

caught Assad's. Moving.

34:40

Seen Really? I think. As

34:42

things can be and. There.

34:44

Are other instances which.

34:48

I don't know can be more like

34:50

I'd I guess that sir in a

34:52

play a planet. One

34:54

thing I think you've got

34:56

to be cast Love So

34:59

with ease ease you very

35:01

quickly hits and diminishing returns.

35:03

the so if you the

35:05

zen every time the character

35:07

passed by of radio off

35:09

to that had z voice

35:11

voice com outfits. Huseyin.

35:14

Since the play would be rolling their

35:16

eyes by the said time it happens.

35:19

It I want to go soul Shutter Island. Fucking

35:22

Cetera, user base notes

35:24

before this episode not

35:26

sticky about media they

35:29

could be used his

35:31

inspiration and surrounding just

35:33

My South. Of

35:35

before we go onto all that. Will be back in just

35:38

a moment. So

35:41

that it's it's. Can

35:43

say that. try. Anyway,

35:46

if you wanna hear the house ness

35:49

up. And waffle on even more.

35:51

Just sit. In a Dollar! So

35:53

as Page and.com/good friends that Jackson

35:55

allies were all back to gain

35:58

access to and versions of. show.

36:01

There is rampant disease in the Whoverville. Someone

36:07

get the fuck out of here. The

36:12

apocalypse players present Bleak

36:15

Prospect by Scott Dawood. Since

36:18

the dizziness comes over me again. Ah,

36:21

my hand, my hand. Is

36:24

there anyone you like to speak

36:26

to? His hand has crumbled in

36:28

yours. Every time

36:30

he moves another part of him sheds

36:32

away and crumbles. In your dream, Nancy,

36:34

they didn't have any faces. Part

36:39

of a season of nameless horrors from

36:41

the apocalypse players. Here we go. Allo

36:43

Z! What a wonderful evening. I

36:47

don't want to hear the song again. With

36:49

his buzz master, right? Come to Paris, they

36:51

said. It'll be romantic, they said. It wasn't

36:53

a great idea. I

36:56

am sweating. I'm bored. Flaking

36:58

skin. The payment is blunt. I love this

37:00

guy. Find us wherever you get your podcasts. And after

37:02

that short moment, we're back. Part

37:16

2. Delusions and

37:18

inspirations. When

37:20

I was working on 7th edition with

37:22

Mike, it was about making

37:25

the effects of Santy Lost more

37:27

interesting and looking at

37:30

what happens in films. Primarily

37:32

films, but you know, the media too. And

37:35

things like Fight Club and

37:37

examples like that where a

37:41

lot of the story comes

37:43

out of the misperceptions of

37:45

the protagonist. Because

37:47

of, well, for whatever reason. Yeah,

37:50

I don't know Matt, do you enjoy that kind of

37:53

thing? I can think of one or two that

37:55

you've recommended to me. I'm pretty sure. So

37:57

do you have any examples? Not

38:00

say something I like. I mean are like it

38:02

when it's done really well and when it comes

38:04

completely out of left field. The is gay system.

38:06

I didn't see that coming. To

38:09

one example of was bouncing around him I

38:11

had drawn think of what's done the in

38:13

more recent years now I can think of

38:15

I honestly didn't see coming until one particular

38:17

moment when I noticed the trail of breadcrumbs

38:19

a fine appointing in the direction say actually

38:22

this isn't what's going on on that joker.

38:25

Because you have that what Thought was a

38:27

wonderful for months on sequence where it goes

38:29

back over previous scenes in the film and

38:31

shows you how they really played out. That

38:34

that was something missing. I. Thought

38:36

that was brilliant. that was a collapse of i did

38:39

not see that being the way you're gonna go. Yeah.

38:42

Yeah. I once I

38:44

got on the far. As.

38:46

Think one of the best

38:48

examples I've seen in recent

38:50

years is the Tv program

38:52

Mister Robot. Which.

38:55

Really just a town with

38:58

sad Aids is a very

39:00

slow burn birch you gradually.

39:02

Realizes the program goes on

39:05

our deepest a serve to

39:07

illusion of see protagonist aliases

39:09

eaten as a lot of

39:11

see fundamental aspects of his

39:13

reality get questions and on

39:16

to mine since it has

39:18

one of the best payoffs

39:20

among those lines I've seen.

39:22

it's is a remarkable bit

39:24

of television. If you

39:26

are doing something my that into

39:29

games inspired by fight Club, all

39:31

joke or or whatever it is

39:33

where you have a character a

39:35

characters who are living a completely

39:37

unreal situation I'm in even the

39:39

Matrix is an example of fundamentally

39:42

is what the game has to

39:44

be about. Was he com pretty

39:46

be aside plot they can't from

39:48

ready be just a subset of

39:50

age you are playing with cease

39:52

and raffling of reality Him mommy

39:54

that's fantastic. Second work. Ready won

39:57

a game. But. you have to

39:59

have for something say a strong

40:01

premise that explains why you have

40:04

a group of people who

40:06

are either sharing a delusion

40:08

or perhaps going

40:11

along with one character's delusions.

40:15

Otherwise, just as a game

40:17

dynamic it's not going to work. It's something

40:19

that you can do in fiction, but doing

40:21

something like Joker in a game would be

40:23

very, very difficult because it is one person's

40:27

delusion. I

40:29

have run a convention scenario

40:32

where the entire reality of it is

40:34

a shared delusion on the part of

40:37

all of the player characters and the

40:39

whole thing is about just drip-feeding the

40:41

little things that are saying this isn't

40:43

real until you get the

40:46

unraveling of that false reality at the

40:48

end. That tends to work

40:50

very well in play, but it is,

40:52

as I said, the entire premise of

40:54

the game. I think when

40:56

I said inspiration, I think it's about looking

40:59

at those films and thinking what's

41:01

happening to the characters and taking that

41:03

in small doses

41:06

of that rather than as inspiration

41:08

for a full scenario. You

41:10

can do that, but as you say, I

41:12

think it would work well for one player.

41:14

It would work very easily for one player.

41:17

It has more potential for working

41:19

for one player. It can be done for a

41:21

group, but it's a lot

41:23

more complex. I think there are

41:25

ways you can bring it in in Call of Curse of

41:27

the Louvre for a group using

41:30

things like Carcosa or The Dreamlands

41:32

or stuff like that to create

41:35

these unrealities. But those

41:37

things aren't real, are they? They

41:40

are. It depends,

41:42

for example, on your definition of

41:45

Carcosa. Carcosa doesn't have to be

41:47

real. I've used Carcosa in

41:49

lots of different ways, including a

41:52

very unreal version of Carcosa and

41:54

Jester's A Story That

41:56

allows you to have degrees of

41:59

deliciousness. Lucian that is

42:01

shared by people caused by

42:03

the unreality. the situation. There

42:05

ain't many. Other thing

42:07

if the players. Are familiar

42:10

with. The. King in Yellow

42:12

and Caicos of then. They're probably

42:14

gonna buy into that quite easily

42:16

because. They're. Gonna think it is

42:18

actually real. Yes, Because.

42:20

It see a Pov the canon. But.

42:23

Then again, they may never have heard of it. But.

42:28

That doesn't stop playing with it. Know.

42:31

But it carries a white when you mention

42:33

those things. And. If

42:36

people familiar with. Another

42:41

discussion but I think you can

42:44

have a lot of fun playing

42:46

was people's preconception. Some misconceptions because

42:48

as we talked about not seeing

42:50

and yellow episodes caicos Her as

42:53

a concept has been through so

42:55

many fiction later raisins and read

42:57

definitions and so on that I

43:00

think it's is fair to say

43:02

it doesn't really be one thing

43:04

and it could mean something very

43:06

different to each player at the

43:09

tables. And I think you can. Have

43:11

a lot of fun at. The

43:14

suddenly intensive delusions and unreality.

43:19

Other any other things apart

43:21

from. Bats of

43:24

madness in San Dos

43:26

that. Would. Freak

43:28

a delusion so to loosen like

43:30

a saints in cook considered as

43:32

a up and the other things

43:34

you used to it's create that's

43:36

tenuous are undermined or conflicted sense

43:39

of reality. The get some solutions.

43:41

I mean the obvious thing

43:43

in just in the real

43:45

world is drugs. So drugs can

43:48

cause hallucinations. And.

43:50

Delusional states of mind, We.

43:53

Can't stop here. This is back country. is

43:56

has tried this been used in a lot

43:59

of situations and It's usually either

44:01

the person is suffering some sort of

44:04

mental illness or

44:06

they're on drugs or whatever. Either

44:08

one of those can bring about that

44:10

state of mind. In

44:12

the fiction, I think in Kolokusulu, as

44:15

you said, Scott, it can be location

44:17

based. That's not true in the real

44:19

world, but in fiction, it can be

44:21

places that touch upon the

44:23

dreamlands or the kalcosa

44:26

or whatever, weird places

44:28

could cause hallucinations. Equally,

44:31

it could

44:33

be the effect of magic and monsters.

44:37

There are certain spells that will have similar

44:40

effects, I think, Matt. You're the go-to

44:42

guy on spells. I can't

44:44

think of anything deliberately alters perception

44:46

like that in terms of magic.

44:50

Some of my scenarios does intrinsically revolve

44:52

around the manipulation of perception to get

44:54

the PCs to do various things, which

44:56

I won't say for obvious

44:58

reasons because it spoils the payoff in that. That's

45:02

very much an entity that's doing that because that's a

45:04

power that the thing has not a spell per se,

45:06

but that's just what this thing does. An

45:11

entity twisting people's perception as a sort

45:13

of a... Almost like

45:15

leading them as rats through a maze to achieve an

45:17

end that it can't do itself, it needs them to

45:19

do it for it. But

45:22

no, I can't think of any spells off the

45:24

top of my head that deliberately twist perception. I

45:27

created one for a scenario

45:30

I published several years

45:32

ago that is

45:35

tied in to a

45:37

cult of Daeloth, but

45:39

rather than creating

45:42

delusions, although I can create

45:44

delusory states of mind through

45:46

sand loss, it is much

45:49

more about changing the investigator's

45:51

perception of reality to one

45:54

that is more in line with the

45:56

rendering the veils, tearing away the veils

45:59

of unreality what really

46:01

lies beneath. The way

46:03

I handled that in the game was

46:05

a classic spell, it was

46:07

an opposed power roll to see if it worked,

46:09

and then that was basically

46:12

a table of effect that was

46:14

everything from engendering a

46:16

slight sense of paranoia about

46:19

people's motivations to far-on seeing reality

46:21

as it really is and having

46:24

your mind torn away from you.

46:28

That makes me think

46:32

in the game, the Cthulhu

46:34

mythos is the true reality, is

46:37

what we humans perceive as

46:40

normal everyday life, is that

46:42

the delusion? We

46:46

think humans are important and our lives are

46:48

important and all that. Clearly

46:50

a delusion, I mean yeah it

46:52

is clearly a delusion but in Call of

46:54

Clueless it's an even bigger delusion because we

46:57

can't perceive reality as it is and when we

47:00

do it breaks that sense

47:02

of sanity as we

47:04

call it. So the ultimate

47:07

way of dispelling delusion is putting

47:09

someone in the mythos equivalent of

47:11

the total perspective vortex. Exactly.

47:14

It all comes back to

47:16

a very hot cup of tea. So

47:20

what are some of the ways

47:22

that you've seen delusions perhaps or

47:24

can imagine delusions going

47:26

wrong in the game? I touched

47:28

on the diminishing returns aspect earlier

47:31

and I think Matt was hinting

47:33

at some of that

47:35

earlier as well with the

47:38

feeling of it being antagonistic

47:41

or distracting. But

47:44

are there any other ways you can think of that you might

47:46

want to be careful or

47:48

things you should watch out for

47:51

when bringing them into a game?

47:54

The key thing that comes to mind for me is subtlety.

47:57

If you're going to do it, be subtle, don't

47:59

be a subtlety. chamois to the face

48:01

kind of immediately obvious that this is

48:03

a delusion. Like one of the, I

48:06

can't remember where I read it, if it was one

48:08

of the examples in the keeper handbook that struck me

48:10

as being, wow I'd see through this immediately if this

48:12

was me in this position. So you're

48:15

wandering through a haunted house and all of a sudden you

48:17

find a friend of yours is there. Well

48:20

me as a player would be going, well I know

48:22

they aren't here because their car isn't outside, we didn't

48:24

make any plans to come with them here, we haven't

48:27

told them they're going to be here, they're in Boston,

48:29

why the hell are they here at this point? And

48:31

it would be me just steamrolling through it and going

48:33

you're an illusion, just walk on through it. And

48:36

it's, that adds nothing to the game.

48:38

If anything it's a, again

48:40

it's a distraction and it's an irrelevance. If

48:43

you're going to do something, do it subtly to

48:45

make them question it, not to be so blatant

48:47

as to go, hey I'm your friend from 10,000

48:50

miles away and I just so happen to be here right now. Do

48:53

it in such a way that it adds

48:55

that element of doubt in there. But

48:58

at the same time I think as

49:01

a player you can

49:03

take that as a role-playing opportunity and

49:05

I think a good player can very

49:08

often do that well in

49:10

that when

49:12

something improbable happens like that,

49:15

if you accept that your character

49:17

is in a delusory state you

49:20

start perhaps to come up with rationales for

49:22

why that could be real, you lean into

49:24

it and I think that comes down to

49:26

good role-playing. I mean

49:29

it's not for everyone but a lot of the people

49:31

I play with regularly will absolutely embrace stuff like that

49:33

and it can be a lot of fun at the

49:35

table. If you're just

49:38

seeing a role-playing game as a bunch

49:40

of problems to be solved and not really playing your

49:42

characters then yeah that's just an irritation

49:44

to be swept out of the way. But

49:46

if you're looking for ways of engaging with that weirdness then

49:48

it can be quite a lot of fun. I'd say

49:51

a good example of that from media in

49:53

terms of both

49:55

the potential problems with it and the

49:57

ways it can work Is... The

50:00

might slang to consume oculus.

50:03

Which. Is about a

50:06

coast mirror of asserts

50:08

ready undermines people census.

50:10

reality completely is great

50:13

in terms of his

50:15

shows you some fantastic

50:18

ideas about how delusions

50:20

could be presented, how

50:23

people's. Perceived.

50:25

Reality can be completely wrong. As.

50:27

The same time I think

50:29

it also highlights one of

50:31

the things that go completely

50:33

wrong with using delusions and

50:36

the game. I think it

50:38

sort of books in the

50:40

film Birch Eight would be

50:42

absolutely terrible and games in

50:44

that it's completely disempowers all

50:46

the characters, nothing they perceive

50:48

is really real. They have

50:50

no wait and see any

50:52

more fans and so as

50:54

a result everything that they

50:56

do in retrospect becomes. An

50:58

important because.of it was really real.

51:01

Yeah, which you can work in a film, but

51:04

we don't. As not a situation of

51:06

wanna cry in a game exciting but I

51:08

think I'm but say example of like the

51:10

the one that Mack gave us. Your

51:12

friend appears in a house. Hello! Yeah they

51:14

wrong approach so that from the player to

51:17

player can take the approach that Matt said

51:19

and yeah you're just an illusion you not

51:21

hear I deny it. And move on

51:23

or or you can. We.

51:25

Go with it and by until I'll

51:27

explore that elderly either of those a

51:30

a bottle. Rome is just a different

51:32

mode of plan. Nothing as a keeper.

51:34

As well you're gonna tell a hear a. Tone.

51:37

Of the why you run

51:39

games and some keepers a

51:41

the take very subtle approach.

51:43

Summer? Very yeah. Larger than

51:46

life and. Very. Odd

51:48

I popeil what it whatever you want

51:50

to call it bus and why you're

51:52

gonna bring. Delusions. Into

51:55

your game is gonna be part of the

51:57

why you run games. I think he eyesight.

51:59

If. hear music from a band, you probably recognize

52:01

it because it's a bit like there are the

52:04

music or a composer, you know, it's they have

52:06

things that they do that makes

52:08

their work recognisable. I think as a

52:10

keeper, it was a GM, once

52:13

you've run a few games, you probably start to

52:15

develop a style and a feel and

52:17

you're kind of settling into the way you do

52:19

it and that

52:22

will run all the way through everything you do.

52:25

And it's important to emphasise that

52:27

as long as the people you're

52:29

playing with are having fun, then

52:32

there's no wrong way of doing it. If

52:34

you're ignoring a

52:37

lot of what we consider to be key elements of

52:39

the game or playing at a very different style and

52:41

so on, if everyone at the table is having fun,

52:43

that's fine. We will still silently judge

52:45

you, but as long as you're having fun, it's

52:47

okay. Unless you're having wrong fun and

52:49

then the fun police will come round. I

52:53

just want to go back to something we were saying earlier.

52:55

I think I forgot to mention, like we were talking about

52:57

the random tables and how they don't sometimes

53:00

they don't fit. I think

53:03

something that some people who are

53:05

working on scenarios, the Miskatonic repository

53:07

and so on, something

53:09

that some people are doing

53:11

is creating customised tables for

53:13

their games. So, you

53:15

know, customised tables where

53:18

you can roll, but the outcomes

53:20

have been tailored to thematically fit

53:22

with the scenario. That

53:24

feels like a step forward to me. You

53:27

know, as a keeper, you can do what

53:29

we described and just work with the player

53:31

to come up with something appropriate or you've

53:34

got that table. If you prefer using the

53:36

table, then you've got one that is more

53:39

likely to give you a more pleasing

53:42

and appropriate outcome. Well,

53:44

one last question then to just wrap everything

53:46

up. As a

53:49

keeper, how much do you

53:53

engage with the

53:55

whole table and the players out of

53:57

character to make these delusions work? entirely

54:00

in-character thing, do you just present them as

54:02

part of the narrative? Or

54:05

do you ever sort of

54:07

hint that they're delusions or

54:09

blatantly get the other players

54:11

to play into these

54:13

delusions? This is hypothetical

54:15

for me because it's obviously like I said, I don't

54:18

use them. But I would just

54:20

layer them into the narrative. I wouldn't give

54:22

them necessarily a choice because then it again,

54:24

it diminishes the fact if the player knows

54:26

that it's a delusion from the outset. And

54:29

as you said, it's some players will lean

54:31

into that. I generally find a lot

54:33

of the players that play in the games I offer don't.

54:36

So I don't offer something that I know they're not

54:38

going to be catered towards. So

54:41

if I did do it, emphasis

54:44

on the big if, it would

54:46

be more laying out as a statement of

54:48

facts and saying this is happening. Rather

54:51

than layering in, oh, do you believe this? Do

54:53

you not believe this? And coaching around it, that's

54:55

a big red flag to all red flag. This

54:57

is a big flag that's been waved. They're saying,

54:59

hey, I'm giving you the hint that this ain't

55:01

real. I wouldn't present it like that.

55:04

I would try to present it to a dead pan.

55:06

No, this is something that's actually happening as far as

55:08

you're concerned because you should be reacting like to this,

55:10

like you would to anything else. So why should I

55:12

describe it any differently in the narrative? I'll

55:15

do that sometimes, but sometimes just for

55:18

effect. Well, I don't

55:20

know if it's for effect, but sometimes I will

55:23

say something to one player and describe it.

55:26

And then say to everybody else, you

55:28

don't see any of this. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

55:31

That doesn't necessarily say that it's not

55:34

something that's real. I remember one time

55:36

I had a, it

55:38

was towards the end of a scenario and one of the

55:40

players said, got the spell,

55:43

like to contact the arth step and they

55:45

cast it. And like nothing

55:47

happened. And then I just cut like

55:49

a couple of days later and I had a

55:51

doorbell ring and there was the delivery guy or

55:54

something like that. Yeah, just some

55:56

incidental person. And that

55:58

was an arth step for me. And what

56:00

he said to the one that had

56:02

done the spell, he explained a bunch

56:04

of stuff, mythos stuff. The rest of

56:07

them, what they were hearing was, can

56:09

you sign for this document, sir? And

56:11

all of that. Then the

56:13

person went there long. But

56:15

that wasn't really a delusion. But it could have been, right?

56:18

So it could have been. So I

56:20

think sometimes it's fun to put

56:22

it to the players that the rest

56:24

of you don't hear this, the rest of you don't see

56:26

this. A tentacle comes out

56:29

the guy's arm. The guy's sleeve. The

56:31

rest of you don't see that at all. So

56:33

it just poses the question, well, is that real

56:35

or isn't that real? And I think that's part

56:37

of the fun. Is it real or

56:40

isn't it real? Because it might be a delusion, but

56:42

it might not be. This

56:45

also suddenly explains to me a lot

56:47

about Every's business practice, the company Every

56:49

evening, R.I. If

56:51

they ask that it was my local courier, that suddenly

56:54

puts the whole lot of more stuff in perspective as

56:56

to how they operate. They are

56:58

delivering a lot of mythos books to you, Matt. So

57:01

as I was saying earlier, Matt and I must

57:04

be playing with very different kinds of people because

57:07

most of the people I play with

57:09

these days, I guess we

57:11

take a much more collaborative

57:14

approach to these things rather

57:16

than the classic, almost oppositional

57:18

GM player divide in

57:20

that when these

57:23

situations come up, it

57:26

just seems organic that

57:28

people embrace delusions

57:31

at the other players at the table,

57:33

just feed into these things and

57:35

that they are then used for dramatic

57:39

effect. If the player

57:42

knows their character is delusional,

57:45

rather than it being an immediate

57:47

call for them to say,

57:50

right, I roll to see what

57:52

reality really is, it then

57:54

becomes an opportunity for dramatic irony. It

57:56

then becomes an opportunity to set up

57:59

for them. things that they

58:01

as the player know aren't

58:04

real but their characters perhaps

58:06

are walking into because it's

58:08

going to create moments of

58:10

horror or weirdness. And

58:14

I just absolutely love playing like that. I'm

58:16

not a big fan of the whole approach of

58:19

you have a side conversation with the player and tell

58:21

them one thing and tell everyone else something else. I'd

58:24

much rather have all that play

58:27

out between the players. I

58:30

feel like listening to what you say when you start

58:32

saying it sounds a bit like you're saying you're

58:35

doing it right and Matt's doing it wrong. I'm

58:37

sure that's not what you mean. It's not what

58:40

I mean, but it's just a subtext here. No,

58:42

no. No, I mean I think it's a serious

58:44

point. I think people do it differently and I

58:47

think Matt and his players are having

58:50

a great time the same as you and your players.

58:52

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. And probably if those say, you

58:54

know, you've said a couple of times, oh Matt, you

58:56

must be playing with different people. I don't think that's

58:58

true. I can go and watch a

59:01

comedy show or I can go

59:03

and watch a horrific horror film and enjoy

59:05

them both. So I

59:07

don't think it's true that it's necessarily different

59:09

people. I think it's a different

59:11

mode of play and people latch into that

59:13

and they can enjoy both. I

59:16

guess the reason I was saying that was

59:18

that Matt seemed to be quite adamant that

59:20

people wouldn't enjoy what I'm presenting there. I

59:22

don't know. Is that your perception, Matt? Depending

59:26

on which there are certain groups I can think of where

59:28

I know it would definitely not go down well. But

59:31

then again, that's maybe partly you

59:34

wouldn't do it that way so it wouldn't go down well.

59:37

Potentially, but I'd say there are certain groups I play with

59:39

on a regular basis and I can think of they would

59:41

not lean into that kind of thing. Fair

59:43

enough. Well, people are

59:45

different. And some of them are just wrong. I

59:48

think in conclusion, you know, delusions are something that

59:51

you can add into your game. And

59:53

as we've discussed, I think it's been an

59:56

interesting discussion, there's a wide

59:58

range of ways of handling. this and

1:00:01

as keeper and to

1:00:04

some degree as player as well it's probably

1:00:06

mostly coming from the keeper it's up to

1:00:08

the player how they handle it but

1:00:11

it can vary a lot and it's a tool that

1:00:13

you can use in your game same as combats at

1:00:15

all chasers are a tool all those different things that

1:00:17

are tools that you can use in your game and

1:00:19

you can use them more or you can use them

1:00:21

less and you can use them differently and

1:00:23

have fun with them you

1:00:31

can find show notes for this episode

1:00:33

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1:00:35

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Jackson Elias thank you for listening

1:00:51

well it is that time once again

1:00:54

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thank you first of all to you for listening

1:00:59

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1:01:14

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1:01:22

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Oren I hope I'm pronouncing that right

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if I'm not please do let us

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1:02:16

you've been listening to the good friends of

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1:02:20

you? I roll to disbelief,

1:02:22

Paul. I roll to disbelief. You

1:02:24

can roll all you like. It's

1:02:28

a goodbye from me, and cheerio from me,

1:02:31

and a farewell from me.