0:02

It's not as if she were

0:04

a maniac, a raving thing. She

0:10

just goes a little mad

0:12

sometimes. We

0:16

all go a little mad sometimes. Haven't

0:21

you? Hello

0:37

and welcome to the Good Friends of

0:39

Jackson Elias, a regular podcast about Korg

0:41

Thulu, horror films and horror gaming in

0:43

general. I'm Paul Fricker. I'm

0:46

Scott Alwood. And I'm Matt Sanderson. In

0:48

this episode, we're taking out a room at

0:50

the Bates Motel and

0:53

talking about Alfred Hitchcock's

0:55

1960 horror classic, Psycho.

0:58

But before we get into all that good stuff, what

1:01

is going on? Well, I

1:03

hear we're only days away from a certain

1:05

gathering now. A weekend gathering, one might say.

1:08

Yes, A Weekend with Good

1:10

Friends is approaching fast. In

1:13

fact, it will be this coming weekend if

1:15

you're listening to this episode as it goes

1:17

out and if you're listening to

1:19

this episode later, you've missed it. But

1:22

A Weekend with Good Friends, which is

1:24

the online gaming convention organised by our

1:27

lovely listeners that takes place on the

1:29

Good Friends Discord server, will

1:31

be taking place between the 1st and 3rd of March

1:33

2024. Player

1:37

sign-ups for the scheduled games have

1:39

closed, but that said, there will

1:41

probably be dropouts and people who

1:43

can't make it throughout the weekend,

1:46

so do keep an eye on the server

1:48

to see whether any spots come up in

1:50

any of those games. Also

1:52

people will almost certainly be running pick-up games

1:54

throughout the weekend, so don't

1:57

despair, you can probably get into a game

1:59

one way. and

2:01

there will also be panels running throughout the weekend

2:03

so if you'd like to listen to people talk

2:05

about role-playing games you can do that too. Also

2:08

this month February sees the release

2:11

of Kaosium's Arkham book, a revised

2:13

version of the classic Arkham book

2:15

Return to the Haunted City by

2:18

Mike Mason, Keith Herber and Brett

2:20

Kramer. We're recording this a

2:22

little in advance so hopefully

2:24

by the time this comes out the book may

2:27

already be out but if it's not out yet

2:29

then it's imminent. Look for it. It's got a

2:31

lovely cover. Yeah a really nice

2:33

cover actually with one of

2:35

the churches silhouetted against the moon with

2:37

a couple of figures facing off against

2:40

what I can only assume to be

2:42

some monstrous ghouls. Oh

2:44

good to see Brett Kramer evolve with Antwist's

2:46

work he's done on Lovecraft Country through the

2:48

Arkham Gazette over the years. If

2:50

people are interested that is something we could potentially

2:53

devote a whole episode to I think. There's a

2:55

lot of interest in Arkham. Now

3:04

onto our main topic, Psycho. Building

3:07

on our episode about psychological horror we thought it

3:09

might be helpful to discuss one of the key

3:11

works of the sub-genre. In the 65 years

3:14

since the book's publication Robert Block's

3:16

Psycho and especially Alfred Hitchcock's film

3:18

adaptation have shaped that strange no

3:21

man's land between horror and crime

3:23

fiction. As ever we'll

3:25

dig into the film in detail looking

3:27

for gaming inspiration. I

3:29

think it's important to say here if you've never seen

3:31

the film this is

3:33

one I would definitely go and watch before we

3:35

spoil it. Yeah. Because there are things that go

3:37

in and I mean it's kind of like one

3:39

of those things that is taken like everybody knows.

3:42

Yeah. The twists in it but yeah

3:44

if you don't know then I strongly

3:47

recommend you go and watch it before we tell you.

3:50

Yeah it's become such a part of

3:52

popular culture and been parodied and pastiche

3:54

so many times. It's difficult

3:56

to imagine that there is anyone out there

3:58

who has has been spalled about

4:01

it, but if you are one of those

4:03

rare few, yeah, then do follow Paul's advice.

4:06

And for God's sake, don't watch the Gus Van Sant

4:08

version. Watch the black and white Hitchcock one. That's the

4:10

one you'll want to see. I'd

4:12

forgotten the other version. I've not seen it. No

4:15

another have I. You've seen it, Matt. Yeah,

4:17

it's almost a shot for shot remake

4:20

of the original. It's why bother making

4:22

a remake just in colour with different

4:24

actors for almost no purpose and maybe

4:26

just an added bit of gore. That's

4:29

it. I've only met

4:32

many. And part of it is

4:34

simply that some people refuse to watch black and

4:36

white films. It seems daft,

4:38

but I've certainly met people who

4:41

just will not watch a film if it's black and

4:43

white. Well I think

4:45

if you are one of those and you're

4:47

not keen on older films in black and

4:49

white, then this is a standout example of

4:51

one that is most excellently

4:53

done in black and white. I

4:55

didn't realise until I was doing

4:58

a bit of research ahead of this why it was

5:00

made in black and white. I'd always assumed it was

5:02

to tone down the gore and make it more palatable

5:04

and so on. That may have been an element, but

5:07

a big part of it was that Hitchcock

5:10

had trouble getting the backing

5:12

of the studio on this and had

5:14

to do it on the cheap. And

5:16

so he basically used the production crew

5:19

from his television programme, Alfred Hitchcock presents

5:21

at the time, to do it. And

5:24

they shot in black and white, so the film's in black and

5:26

white. Yeah, it works very

5:28

well. So

5:30

Alfred Hitchcock directed Psycho in 1960 based on the 1959

5:33

novel. Wow,

5:37

I hadn't realised it was only the

5:39

year before by Robert Block

5:42

of other mythos-fiction fame.

5:45

It came at a time when Hitchcock was

5:47

uncertain of his future in the film industry,

5:49

curiously, and was looking for

5:51

a project that would grab the public's attention. Block

5:54

had also been at a low point when

5:56

he wrote the novel, wondering whether his best

5:58

writing years were behind him. I've

6:01

read Bloch's autobiography in preparation

6:03

for this once around the

6:05

Bloch. And he talks

6:07

about how I think he was like

6:09

40 or 41 when he wrote this

6:11

and he'd been writing since he was

6:14

a teenager. This was like 25 years

6:16

into his career. And

6:18

he just thought that, yeah, he

6:20

was over the hill now. If

6:24

I remember right, now I'm probably going to

6:26

butcher the name here. There is a film

6:28

that's done about the making of Psycho, if

6:30

I remember right. It's stars. What's

6:32

his name? We played Hannibal Lecter.

6:35

Anthony Hopkins. Because he

6:37

plays Hitchcock. If I remember

6:39

right, there is a key point in there about

6:41

one of the things that Hitchcock did was

6:44

that he pretty much bought out all the

6:46

copies of the book while

6:48

they were pretty much still on the shelf so that

6:50

no one in Hollywood had a clue about what the

6:52

book was about, what the twist was, what the big

6:54

reveal was in this. So that it came

6:57

as a complete surprise when anyone went to the cinema to see

6:59

it for the first time. Oh,

7:01

that's very clever because they make

7:03

it a bestseller, but also

7:06

nobody's read it. But

7:08

then it must have been so close to the point

7:10

when the original novel came out for them to be

7:12

able to do that. So yeah, making it that only

7:14

a year after makes perfect sense. A

7:17

key inspiration for Bloch's novel was

7:20

the notorious murderer Ed Gein. Bloch

7:23

was living in Wisconsin in 1957 when

7:26

Gein's crimes were uncovered and

7:28

he lived like 30 miles away

7:30

from Gein's hometown of Plainfield. Even

7:34

so, Bloch didn't specifically draw

7:36

too many elements or too

7:38

many details from the

7:40

Gein case, but just used it to inform

7:42

Psycho and the

7:44

character of Norman Bates. He

7:46

does name check Gein in the book because I

7:49

did read the Psycho novel before this and

7:51

it's only a passing reference right towards

7:53

the end with the whole media circus

7:55

surrounding the last part, basically the epilogue.

7:58

But yeah, Gein is name checked. But

8:00

it's far more than that in that there

8:03

are definitely elements of Gein in Norman

8:05

Bates. While

8:07

Norman Bates is a less extreme

8:09

character than Gein, he shares Gein's

8:12

unhealthy relationship with his mother, interest

8:14

in taxidermy and propensity for digging

8:16

up bodies. Mild spoiler

8:18

there. It's

8:20

difficult to discuss the background of the book

8:22

and so on at this stage without mild

8:25

spoilers. So we gave

8:27

you a spoiler warning upfront. You

8:29

can get spoilers. There

8:32

was also a speculation at the time

8:34

about Gein's gender identity,

8:36

whether or not he was

8:38

transgender, because he had adopted

8:41

aspects of a female persona apparently, or

8:43

at least according to the psychiatrists, to

8:46

the extent of wearing masks and a

8:48

course it made from the skin of

8:50

women, which much more

8:53

inspired the character of Buffalo

8:55

Bill from Silence of the

8:57

Lambs than… But there's

9:00

not really any indication from the

9:02

psychiatrists' finding at the time that

9:05

he was trans in any way

9:07

and it's been heavily disputed since

9:09

then. But Block

9:13

seized on this aspect of it

9:15

and in the book much more

9:17

in the film incorporates that into

9:19

Norman's personality. He has

9:21

him being a cross-dresser even

9:24

before he adopts his mother's

9:26

personality and this comes up again

9:28

in the sequel in Psycho 2. This

9:32

more than anything else is the thing

9:34

that I dislike about Psycho. Don't

9:37

get me wrong, I think Psycho is a great piece

9:39

of writing. I think as a thriller

9:42

it is meticulously constructed.

9:45

I think it's a very clever piece of thriller

9:47

writing. But in

9:50

a lot of ways it's ground zero

9:52

for what I think is a pretty

9:54

dangerous and toxic trope in horror, which

9:56

is this cross-dressing or transgender killer trope.

10:00

which I don't think necessarily

10:02

originated with Psycho. The earliest

10:04

example I could think of

10:06

was a book from 1934

10:08

called Hell Set the Duchess.

10:11

But I think

10:13

it's probably what implanted this

10:16

trope into a lot

10:19

of people's minds, into

10:21

the popular consciousness. And

10:24

we've certainly seen it in any

10:26

number of horror films

10:28

and books since then. I mentioned Science

10:30

of the Lands but there was also

10:32

William Castle's Homicidal from 1961. There

10:35

was Brian De Balmer's Dressed

10:37

a Kill in 1980 that was Sleepaway

10:39

Camp. It was a film I

10:41

saw recently in Heated called Crystal Eyes. I

10:43

mean even J.K. Rowling writing

10:45

Trouble Blood recently. This cross-dressing

10:49

killer persona or

10:52

trope is just everywhere. And

10:55

I think it's quite

10:58

a dangerous one in that

11:01

it feeds

11:03

into that narrative that you

11:05

see a lot these days

11:08

about particularly trans women being

11:10

predators invading female spaces, which

11:13

is used as the basis for

11:15

a lot of anti-trans legislation. It's

11:18

inspired a lot of hate crimes. And

11:21

while I think the film

11:23

as we'll discuss when we come to the

11:25

ending of it does go some way towards

11:27

distancing itself from that

11:29

interpretation, it is therein Block's

11:32

work. And even

11:34

with the little bit of distancing at the very

11:36

end in the film, it

11:38

certainly feeds into that narrative and

11:41

it makes the whole thing

11:43

a bit of an uncomfortable watch for me

11:45

sometimes. of

12:00

Bloch's novel, adapted by radio

12:02

writer Joseph Stefano. While

12:05

Hitchcock wasn't shy about deviating from

12:07

source material, Bloch's sparse, meticulous story

12:09

lent itself perfectly to the screen,

12:12

and yeah, having read it, I would say this

12:14

is a good 95% faithful adaptation, there's

12:17

very little that deviates from it at all. Mmm.

12:21

The biggest change I'd say is the

12:23

character of Norman Bates himself. Oh yeah.

12:26

Norman Bates in the book is

12:28

very different. The

12:31

casting of Anthony Perkins I

12:33

think fundamentally changed who the

12:35

character is. The

12:38

version we see in the film here is

12:42

superficially boyish and affable

12:44

and almost naive,

12:48

and it's only over time

12:50

that we gradually see the

12:52

darker depths that he's hiding.

12:57

Bates in the book is sleazy.

13:00

He's middle-aged, he's overweight,

13:02

he wears glasses. Those

13:05

are superficial things, but in terms

13:07

of his personality he's much more

13:11

obsessed with pornography and obsessed

13:13

with the occult as well.

13:16

He's a much less, as I

13:18

said, superficially likable person. Bloch

13:21

doesn't create this dissonance

13:23

between his first impression and

13:25

what he really is. So

13:29

middle-aged, overweight Bloch wears glasses obsessed

13:31

with the occult. Yeah,

13:33

I know. Wrong-en, obviously. Yeah,

13:37

clearly a wrong-en. Bloch was

13:39

happy with the adaptation, even if he thought the

13:41

ending was over explained. When

13:43

Hitchcock asked his opinion, Bloch told him, I

13:46

think this is either going to be your

13:48

greatest success or your biggest bomb. Bloch

13:51

did grow increasingly frustrated, however,

13:53

when critics credited Hitchcock with

13:55

the story. And

13:58

I would think probably this is… Is

14:01

this Hitchcock's biggest success? I mean it's

14:03

probably pretty much his

14:05

best known film? I

14:07

would have thought. It's difficult to say

14:09

because he had a number of very

14:12

very successful films before his. But

14:15

he can't. It's probably the film he's best

14:17

remembered for. Yeah I would have said

14:20

so because I mean there's other stand out ones

14:22

Birds and North by Northwest and so on. But

14:24

this is like, it feels like the iconic film

14:27

really. And it's interesting as

14:30

well. I mean we touched on a few

14:32

moments ago how this was

14:34

such a faithful adaptation. I mean Hitchcock

14:37

when he made films tended to make

14:39

them his own and was very free

14:41

with the adaptation. So he won't you

14:43

mention the Birds there. I've read Did

14:45

You Worry's original development recently and it's

14:47

nothing like the film. Nothing like it.

14:49

There's... There are Birds in it. That's

14:51

about it. The 39 Steps as

14:53

well. I read that last year. And

14:56

yes again absolutely nothing like the

14:59

film. Nothing like it. It's

15:02

interesting to see how faithfully was the block's

15:04

novel here. Well

15:13

let's dig in and take a look

15:15

at the story of Psycho. We

15:18

open with Marion Crane played by Janet

15:20

Leigh in a cheap hotel

15:22

with her boyfriend Sam Loomis played by John

15:24

Gavin. They've just had

15:26

a quick assignation during Marion's lunch hour

15:29

and are now discussing their future. Marion

15:31

wants to marry Sam and make their

15:33

relationship respectable. Sam is in serious

15:35

debt. However and wants to

15:38

be clear of it before they wed. This

15:40

will take a couple of years. Yeah

15:42

because he makes some comment about how

15:44

he's living in the back room with his

15:47

shop and doesn't want her to live there

15:49

with him and she's a bit more accepting

15:51

of this but that's a hard line for

15:53

him. Mm-hmm. Marion returns

15:55

to her office after this where her boss Mr.

15:58

Larry has just been dealing with him. with

16:00

a customer, Mr Cassidy, this

16:02

wealthy client who's purchasing a house

16:04

for his daughter. Cassidy

16:07

has turned up with $40,000 in

16:09

cash to pay for this house.

16:12

I ran this through an inflation calculator just to

16:14

see what it's worth in today's money and then

16:17

like $410,000 in

16:20

today's money. So, this is a big

16:22

chunk of cash. Just

16:25

to jump back here, something we didn't

16:27

mention was the title sequence. The title

16:30

sequence is really striking and the music,

16:32

I mean this film is known for

16:34

its score and particularly like in the

16:37

shower scene, but the opening music is

16:39

really jarring. I mean in a good

16:41

way, but it's like really striking and

16:44

quite simple graphics, but quite striking graphics

16:46

at the same time. Saul

16:48

Bastin of the titles and he was legendary

16:51

for doing title sequences, that's

16:53

scored by Bernard Hermann is

16:56

amazing and it always

16:58

muses me. I take it you noticed

17:00

when you watched Reanimator that the

17:03

title sequence from Reanimator is

17:05

just different enough that they could

17:07

probably avoid a lawsuit,

17:09

but it is the theme from Psycho.

17:12

Larry asks Marion to take the cash across

17:14

to the bank and place it in the

17:17

safety deposit box. Simple. Marion

17:19

tells Larry that she has a headache

17:22

and will head home after making the

17:24

deposit. Instead,

17:26

she takes the cash home, packs

17:28

a suitcase and calls her

17:30

boyfriend. No, she doesn't call her boyfriend.

17:33

She just packs

17:35

the suitcase and heads out of town. So

17:37

even here, I think the film is not

17:40

doing the obvious. It's not the two of them

17:42

running off together. Larry spots

17:44

her on a crosswalk in

17:46

the center of town. Yeah, it's just

17:48

a notable little thing where her boss

17:50

spots her in the car when apparently

17:52

she's at home with the headache. The

17:55

following morning, Marion is awoken by a highway

17:57

patrolman as she's sleeping in her parked car.

18:00

Her nervousness and desperation to get

18:02

away arouses the Patrolman's suspicions. He

18:05

follows her for a while. This is

18:07

something that they really did change for the film.

18:10

This Patrolman, who I think is mentioned in passing

18:12

in the book, becomes not

18:14

quite a major character but

18:16

he is this looming presence

18:19

at this stage. He's like,

18:21

when we were discussing psychological horror

18:24

before and external manifestations of internal

18:26

faith, this is like the external

18:28

manifestation of Marion's guilt, just docking

18:31

her down the highway. I

18:33

don't even recall the fact that there was a Patrolman

18:35

mentioned because this whole section, the

18:38

whole opening with Marion before, which was renamed

18:40

in the book, she's marrying the book, gets

18:43

to the hotel. It's a grand total

18:45

of eight pages. So

18:47

you can tell this is definitely expanded upon

18:49

for a film. Yeah, and

18:52

I think that works because they are

18:54

very much establishing the character of Marion

18:56

here, which, considering what's

18:58

going to happen about halfway through

19:00

the film, is really important for

19:02

that sort of misdirecting that moment

19:04

of vertigo as everything changes. Yeah,

19:07

although establishing a character, I think she has

19:09

more character in the book. Because

19:12

it goes into more detail about the relationship she

19:14

has with her mother, her sister

19:16

as well, how she met

19:18

Sam Loomis, where Sam is based in

19:20

relation to her, etc. That's

19:22

all much more established in the book itself.

19:24

In the film, it seems almost

19:26

like not quite an afterthought, but it definitely doesn't

19:28

get as much attention, which I thought was a

19:31

bit diminishing, the fact of what happens to her

19:33

so soon into the film. Well,

19:35

I think those are things that it's very difficult

19:37

to do succinctly in a film. If they'd done

19:39

that, it would have been a much longer film

19:42

and a very different film. But the way it's

19:44

established here is much more suited to cinematic storytelling

19:46

and I think it has

19:48

the same basic effect of making

19:50

us feel for her as a

19:52

character and establishing her as a character, and does it

19:54

in a much more cinematic way. for

20:00

one with Californian plates. This

20:03

again arouses suspicion as she pressures

20:05

the dealer into a quick sale.

20:07

She becomes even more anxious when

20:09

the patrolman parks across the street

20:11

and watches, but she eventually drives

20:13

off in her new car with

20:15

the patrolman and staff looking on

20:17

concerned. I

20:19

think in some ways this is both a very

20:21

tense scene and also one of the few missteps

20:23

in the film. In that

20:26

the emphasis on that patrolman and his

20:28

presence across the street, watching

20:31

the whole thing and then the fact that

20:33

he just watches her drive off at the end, it just

20:36

felt very contrived to me. It

20:38

worked on an emotional level, but it didn't work

20:41

on a literal level for me if that makes

20:43

sense. Driving

20:45

into the night, Marion obsessively runs through

20:47

everyone's likely reactions to her crime. Heavy

20:50

rain reduces visibility so Marion pulls

20:53

into the Bates Motel. The boyish

20:55

manager, Norman Bates, played by Anthony

20:57

Perkins, comes down from the house. He

21:00

explains that the motel is empty, as usual,

21:03

since the new highway opened. Marion

21:05

registers under a fake name. Norman

21:08

offers to save Marion the 15 mile drive

21:10

to the diner in Fairvale by making

21:12

a sandwich for her. It

21:14

didn't register at first that, oh, obviously

21:16

Fairvale is where she's headed, that's where

21:19

Sam's hardware store is. The

21:21

whole film, the whole story, could be short-circuited as

21:23

she'd just driven on for those additional 15 miles,

21:26

but then we wouldn't have the film.

21:29

As Marion unpacks her

21:31

suitcase, she hides the $40,000 in the

21:34

newspaper which she puts on

21:36

the nightstand, and she

21:38

opens the window and hears Norman and

21:41

his mother arguing up in the house.

21:43

Norman's mother is berating him, believing

21:46

that Marion wants to seduce Norman

21:49

and refuses to let Marion into the house

21:51

to have dinner. Embarrassed,

21:54

Norman returns soon with the sandwiches and

21:56

says his mother isn't quite

21:59

herself to date. day. In

22:01

brackets. Yes. To

22:04

embarrass, to enter Marion's room, Norman suggests that they

22:06

could eat in the office. Then

22:08

he sort of says, oh, but the office, yeah,

22:10

it's a bit formal. We can go into the,

22:12

I've got a back parlour, which is filled with

22:15

stuffed birds, as you do. So

22:18

he talks about all these taxidermied birds. And

22:21

I think we get a bit of sympathy for him

22:23

here, although Matt won't, because Matt's

22:25

love of birds. He loves birds too, but he

22:27

sort of makes the point that he wouldn't like

22:29

to kill or stuff like

22:32

other animals. But somehow birds are

22:34

okay, which is a bit unkind to the birds, as I

22:36

said. But it kind of

22:38

makes him a more sympathetic character, I

22:40

think. At least in the book he

22:42

has the decency just as stuff was squirrel, he doesn't stuff a

22:44

bird. Okay. Well,

22:47

everybody's got their limit. Yeah, keeps it in the

22:49

kitchen rather than his parlour. Is that

22:52

hygienic? I don't know. Everyone tells

22:54

Marian about his lonely life, looking after

22:56

his mother and practising taxidermy. As

22:59

he talks about how everyone is stuck in

23:01

their private trap, we can see Marian reconsidering

23:03

her recent actions. And he

23:05

does drop a great line here,

23:07

a very quotable line, that

23:09

I was really looking forward to coming up in the book, and it's

23:11

not in there. A man's best friend

23:13

did his mother. Yes. Is

23:17

your time so empty? No.

23:21

Well, I run the office and

23:24

tend the cabins and grounds and do little

23:28

errands for my mother. The one

23:30

she allows I might be capable of doing.

23:33

Did you go out with friends? Well,

23:38

a boy's best friend is his mother. Yeah,

23:43

there are lots of little lines like that

23:45

that they added to the dialogue in the

23:47

film, which I think really works.

23:49

I think that line works a lot

23:51

better with film Norman than it would

23:53

with book Norman, because

23:55

that's their sort of boyishness about him.

24:00

explains that his mother is ill, and

24:03

not just physically, though she never

24:05

quite recovered from the shock of

24:07

losing her lover some ten years

24:09

ago. Norman tells Marion a son

24:12

is a poor substitute for

24:14

a lover. When

24:17

I was reading Block's autobiography, this

24:19

was, I don't think

24:21

he really complained about it, but it sort

24:23

of hinted that this was one of the

24:25

things that he didn't especially like about the

24:27

adaptation, in that he

24:29

didn't really imply an

24:31

incestuous relationship at all in the

24:33

book, but it

24:35

sort of hinted at in the film here and

24:38

elsewhere. When Marion suggests

24:40

that his mother might be better

24:42

off in a psychiatric institution, Norman

24:45

grows angry, telling her what terrible

24:47

places madhouses, as he calls them,

24:49

are, and that his mother

24:51

is not a maniac or a raving

24:53

thing. We all go a

24:55

little mad sometimes, he explains. Yeah,

24:58

this does seem to set him off

25:00

this discussion. Not as

25:02

in shouting angry, but you can just

25:04

see the intensity there as he's speaking.

25:08

All this convinces Marion that she needs to head

25:10

back to Phoenix in the morning and return the

25:13

money. She bids Norman good

25:15

night and heads to her room. Norman

25:17

removes the painting from the wall, revealing a

25:19

peephole, and watches Marion

25:21

disrobe. He grows agitated and

25:23

then heads up to the house. And

25:27

I think this, again, works better

25:29

with film Norman, because I guess

25:31

if you didn't know anything about

25:33

the film before watching it, this

25:35

moment where you see him do

25:37

that would be quite shocking, because

25:39

it doesn't seem like something that

25:41

someone as superficially innocent as

25:44

him would do. But

25:47

Book Norman, you can absolutely see doing

25:49

that. Book

25:51

Norman goes a little bit more graphic as

25:53

well. He ends up getting drunk. He definitely

25:55

takes a fair degree of booze

25:57

in his parlour and sees

26:00

the pleasure in herself, if I remember right,

26:02

he definitely gets in a

26:04

more interesting state. So

26:07

back in her room, Marion makes some calculations

26:09

on a bit of scrap paper, working

26:11

at her finances and whether she can repay

26:13

the money that she's stolen minus the money

26:15

that she paid for the new

26:18

car. But she

26:20

then tears up the piece of paper with all

26:22

calculations and flushes the pieces down the toilet. Then

26:26

she gets ready to take a shower. So

26:30

this is the famous shower scene. And

26:32

I have to say this time watching it,

26:35

I think I was struck by the horror that

26:37

she gets into the shower and draws the shower

26:39

curtain and then just stands in

26:41

front of the shower and just turns it on

26:43

full blast. Who does that? Who

26:47

doesn't like turn it on and stick their arm

26:49

in or their foot in to see is it

26:51

cold? Is it hot? No, she just

26:53

turns it on full blast in her face. Now, that may

26:55

not be the worst thing that happens in this scene. But

26:57

to me, that was like, shocking,

27:00

shocking, I tell you. Especially

27:03

the locations that he slightly moved. I mean,

27:05

the book, it's Texas and now it's there.

27:08

Now it's Arizona. Actually, it's never

27:10

stated in the book. It makes some

27:12

passing reference to Dallas is somewhere that

27:14

I think Lila's visited. But block very

27:16

deliberately didn't say which state is

27:18

all set in. Not in that or in

27:21

any of the sequels. I mean, that was a deliberate choice in

27:23

his part. I am almost 95 percent

27:25

sure it actually sets it in Fort Worth.

27:27

This is happening just outside Fairvale, which

27:30

Fairvale is never given the state in the

27:32

book. But I mean, where we

27:34

start off, because they were starting Phoenix, what I was

27:36

getting to the point is I've been to both states

27:39

and been in both those regions. I know how bloody

27:41

hot it can get. So being in

27:43

a shower and just turning it on full blast.

27:45

And even if it's cold would still be a

27:47

relief from all that temperature. So whether

27:49

it's hot or cold, I wouldn't give a shit. I'll just

27:51

get in and turn the thing on if I was in

27:53

either of those places. Fairvale.

27:57

One thing that I was struck by.

28:00

this time around watching it is

28:03

how little build up there is to the

28:05

shower scene. Because this

28:07

scene, this one scene I

28:09

think changed horror cinema. It's

28:12

one of the most influential scenes in

28:14

cinema full stop. And

28:17

now it's become shorthand for a

28:19

moment of vulnerability for the characters.

28:22

If in a horror film now you see

28:24

a character getting ready for a shower going

28:26

into a shower, you know

28:29

that this is shorthand for they

28:31

are going to be either under threat

28:34

or there's got to be some fake

28:36

out involving it. There's never

28:38

going to be a shower scene just for the sake

28:40

of it is always going to

28:42

somehow refer back to this. But

28:45

here because there's no expectation of

28:47

that it just sort of happens.

28:50

She gets undressed, she goes through into the bathroom,

28:52

she gets into the shower. And

28:55

for that first 30 seconds

28:57

or so before the shadow appears behind

28:59

the curtain, there's no

29:01

incidental music. There's nothing about

29:03

the cinematography that's there to

29:06

heighten tension is just all very matter

29:08

of fact. There

29:11

is a lot of very careful cinematography

29:13

in this film not to show any

29:15

anything explicit. Yeah. You got a whole

29:17

scene of her being stabbed in the

29:19

shower and then afterwards her body on

29:21

the floor being dragged a naked body

29:23

being dragged from from one room to

29:25

another. But some very clever arrangement

29:27

of bodies and and furniture

29:30

and so on. There was a

29:32

video essay I saw which

29:35

I will recommend it was it was

29:37

recommended to me by James Mullen and

29:40

well suggest anyone who's interested in psycho.

29:42

What is it? A video

29:45

essay by Matt Baum called Psychos, Norm

29:47

and Bates and the Hidden Life of

29:49

Anthony Perkins is much more

29:51

about Anthony Perkins and his relationship with the role

29:53

of Norman Bates. But Baum

29:55

does make reference in

29:58

passing to Hitchcock

30:00

being challenged by the senses over this

30:02

scene. One of the senses

30:04

saying, oh, we saw a nipple in this, you've got

30:06

to cut that. Obviously, there wasn't

30:08

a nipple in it. So Hitchcock just

30:11

basically waited a few days, resubmissioned exactly

30:13

the same scene back then. And they

30:15

said, oh, oh, yeah, thank you. That's

30:17

good now. This

30:21

is one of the points where the Gus

30:23

Van Sant version is noticeably different. Because

30:25

when talking about that now, the fact of her

30:27

naked body when she falls over the shower, she

30:30

has a lot more exposed wounds on

30:32

her body when she does that. So

30:34

that when her body lays

30:37

in that manner, the wounds open up and they start

30:39

to bleed a bit more. That's one

30:41

of the more graphic bits they put in here, which

30:43

in retrospect, when you look back at this version, you

30:45

go, well, she seems stabbed all these times. Where

30:48

the hell are all these wounds on there?

30:50

Where's all the blood coming from? There's nothing.

30:54

Yeah, you don't see the knife enter her

30:56

body at any stage. The only time you

30:58

see the knife in conjunction with her, it's

31:00

just sort of in front of her. Like

31:03

you say, there are no wounds on her.

31:05

The whole thing is very bloodless in a

31:07

lot of ways. So you see the spattus

31:09

and bludge, which were actually chocolate syrup in

31:12

the water. And you

31:14

see Norman cleaning out the blood afterwards. But

31:17

as far as killings go, it is

31:19

a fairly

31:21

tame one by Bond's standards, but deeply

31:24

shocking by the standards of 1960. Yeah,

31:26

and you

31:28

don't have to be showing it to see it,

31:30

I think, as is testament to the cutting off

31:32

the ears seen in reservoir dogs. People think they

31:35

see it cut off, but they don't. So

31:37

I think they see her being... Stabbed.

31:42

I'm sure. And I

31:44

think it's important to say here in this scene

31:46

as well, we're being quite open as to who

31:49

the murderer is. But what we

31:51

see here is, from the viewer's perspective,

31:55

Norman's mother turning up and doing the stabbing.

31:57

And We don't see very much. Of

32:00

her just a very brief frame

32:02

auto we did see her space

32:04

very brief. Is. Interesting

32:07

as well, contrasting the

32:09

Swiss as the. Description

32:11

of the seen as a book

32:13

because the scene of the book

32:16

is one paragraph pretty much or

32:18

least the actual murder aids is

32:20

pretty basic and is also. I

32:23

think a bit silly in one

32:25

way so it reads Mary started

32:28

to scream and then the curtains

32:30

parted further and hand appeared holding

32:33

a butcher knife. He was a

32:35

nice that a moment later settle

32:37

for scream. And

32:40

Sutter said. That.

32:42

Decapitation. The icing just goes a

32:44

bit too thought the ways it's.

32:47

Said there I mean it just sounds

32:50

like he i'm slices that was an

32:52

awesome ahead falls off which I don't

32:54

think is what block the same and

32:56

for but it is sense bit silly.

32:59

I came from his autobiography see did

33:01

have a sing a bad decapitation he

33:03

talks about being a child and been

33:05

taken to this in my back. In

33:08

the days of Sodom movies fans there

33:10

was one film he saw a common

33:12

postpone a possible to launch a new

33:14

film where someone is the capitals and

33:17

he talks. About seeing this at the

33:19

age of seven or eight not that

33:21

it's a really imprinting on him to

33:24

the extent where as Sats. Image.

33:27

Comes up over and over again. his

33:29

work that he's obsessed with decapitation because

33:31

it frightens him so much for nothing.

33:33

That's why put sincere birds. I'm very

33:35

glad they didn't do that and film

33:37

set up for your work. It

33:39

also be a lot more an expensive effect to

33:41

achieve. That's probably why they to frozen that main reason

33:44

why they changed it. He

33:46

must have loved the omen when he heard that.

33:48

Got to see that a couple years deco. But

33:50

after this. Block. seated most

33:52

horace homes mouth will be took

33:54

up block next episode about yeah

33:57

block i think pretty much hated

33:59

any horror film that was made after 1920. We'll

34:03

be back with more about Norman after this

34:06

short break. There

34:09

is rampant disease in the

34:11

hotel. Someone get the dog!

34:14

The apocalypse players present Bleak

34:17

Prospect by Scott

34:19

Dawood. Such a dizziness comes over

34:21

me again. Ah, my

34:24

hand, my hand. Is there

34:26

anyone you like to speak to?

34:29

His hand has crumbled in yours.

34:32

Every time he moves another part of

34:34

him sheds away and crumbles. In your

34:36

dream, Nancy, they didn't have any faces.

34:41

Part of a season of nameless

34:43

horrors from the apocalypse players. Here

34:45

we go. Hello, Z! What

34:48

a wonderful evening! I don't want to hear

34:50

the song again. With his buzz master, right?

34:52

Come to Paris, they said. It'll be romantic,

34:55

they said. It wasn't a great idea. I

34:58

am sweating. I'm bored. Flaking

35:00

skin. The payment is blunt. I love this

35:02

guy. Find us wherever

35:05

you get your podcasts. Do

35:10

you like obscure books of hidden knowledge?

35:12

I know I do. The

35:14

Blastless Tome is a cooler, catholic

35:16

fanzine produced by the good friends of

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Jackson and Elias. Everyone

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tome. Join us at

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patreon.com/good friends of Jackson and Elias.

35:36

And we're back with more about Psycho. We

35:39

then hear Norman crying from the house. He

35:48

races down the hill and finds Marian's body.

35:51

Shocked at first, apparently, but then

35:53

gradually readying himself to cover up

35:55

the crime. There's

35:57

A method to how he does.

36:00

These birds seems to very subtly imply,

36:02

which we see pretty much confirmed of

36:04

the end of the film. Said: this

36:06

isn't the first time he's had to

36:08

do you face. Over

36:10

the next feminists we watch Norman rap

36:12

Marion's body up in the shower curtain,

36:15

mop up all the blood something crappy

36:17

a towns on to get all of

36:19

us all these and tax Marius possessions

36:21

into his suitcase, puts her corpse in

36:24

the suitcase and boots the car. and

36:26

then as an afterthought, speed notices the

36:28

bid the newspaper which is got the

36:30

stolen money this on the nightstand, put

36:33

that in sick a stupid and then

36:35

he drives the car to a nearby

36:37

swamp and pushes it into the Maya.

36:40

Yes, I mentioned that ten minutes

36:42

of screen time. This film is

36:44

an hour and forty eight minutes.

36:46

So that is a sizeable chunk

36:48

of the film is it is

36:50

devoted to the aftermath of Zeus

36:52

and this murder. As a player

36:54

me to clean up which I

36:56

think is pretty significant. Particularly.

36:59

Considering how briefly the shower

37:01

scene in the murder is,

37:04

From. A gaming point of view,

37:06

I think that focus on the

37:08

a sex or violence in the

37:10

aftermath of Fun and Sees is

37:12

certainly something that appeals to me

37:14

is something that I appreciate quite

37:17

a lot. For example the film's

37:19

if Takeshi Kitano, Japanese artist and

37:21

lot of gangster films. A

37:23

sort of his trademark verts

37:26

use have seized moments of

37:28

sickening fonts of gunplay. That.

37:32

You. Don't necessarily see in the

37:34

film. Oh, quite often he will

37:36

just cut to the aftermath of

37:39

standing there was an autocrat and

37:41

so on, the just that frozen

37:43

moment after, or the funds from

37:46

the bloodshed. Then. Deal with

37:48

the the repercussions of that.

37:50

It's unlikely. Active Finds itself

37:52

is is almost. No.

37:54

Not on important birds. Not worth

37:56

dwelling on compared to the effect

37:58

that it has on. and the lives

38:00

of the people around it. And

38:02

I just think that's a fascinating approach, and

38:04

I sort of see that here with this

38:06

scene as well. You say

38:09

that it's a... I agree in this point

38:11

that it is a fairly significant chunk of screen

38:13

time and that it's quite a significant

38:15

section. It's also given

38:17

quite a degree of prominence in the book, because the

38:19

one thing that you don't get in the film version

38:22

is Norman's internal monologue as

38:24

he's going through all this. And

38:26

again, that takes up quite a few pages compared

38:29

to the eight pages setting up Marion's

38:31

background getting to the motel, and

38:34

then equally sizable chunk of

38:36

text that's given over to what's going

38:38

through Norman's head while he does all this. We

38:41

cut to the Loomis Hardware store in Fairvale,

38:43

a great change of scene suddenly. It's

38:48

a few days later, and Marion's sister,

38:50

Leela, played by Vera Miles,

38:52

arrives, demanding to know where Marion is.

38:55

Sam has no idea. As

38:57

Leela starts to explain what happened,

39:00

a gruff private investigator with

39:02

the fabulous name of Arbergast

39:05

comes in to the shop and says he

39:07

has been hired to retrieve the

39:09

money. So this is our private

39:11

investigator, not really a computer

39:13

investigator, but I mean, he could be. Yeah.

39:17

Comes in and he's hard on the trail. So

39:19

this is a good change of pace, I think. So

39:21

we're about halfway through, just over halfway through the film

39:23

at this point. Yeah, and

39:26

he's been training Leela. That's

39:28

why he's turned up here, because he's believed

39:30

that she must know where her sister

39:33

is. But this is

39:35

the point at which he chooses to reveal himself. Arbergast

39:38

then visits every rooming house and hotel in

39:40

the area looking for Marion, and

39:43

he ends up at the Bates Motel. Norman

39:45

tells Arbergast that no one has stayed there

39:47

for weeks. He contradicts

39:49

himself almost immediately, however, raising

39:52

Arbergast suspicions. Bad

39:54

move. Yeah, this is

39:56

a repeating thing we see through the film

39:58

that's, I think, much more emphasized. than

40:01

we see in the book, which is

40:03

these moments where people tell

40:06

lies and try to

40:08

fabricate an alibi

40:10

or an excuse or whatever, and it

40:13

quickly unravels and there's this mounting suspicion

40:15

from the people around them. It's

40:18

a very Hitchcock thing, and I think it was very

40:20

one of his hands here. Checking

40:23

the guest register, Arbegast recognises Marian's handwriting

40:25

despite the fake name she used. Marian

40:29

grows increasingly nervous as Arbegast

40:31

presses him for details, as

40:34

Arbegast believes Marian might still be

40:36

hiding out at the motel. See,

40:39

now I'm starting to remember,

40:42

I'm making a metal picture of it in my mind, you

40:44

know, if you make a metal picturisation of something. That's right,

40:46

that's right, take the tenet. She

40:50

was sitting back there, no, no, she was standing back there

40:52

with a sandwich in her hand, and

40:54

she said she had to go to sleep early because she had

40:56

a long drive

40:59

ahead of her. Back

41:02

where? Back where she came from.

41:04

No, you said before that she was sitting back there.

41:06

Oh, I'm standing back there. Yes, but back in my

41:08

parlour there, she was very hungry and

41:10

I made her a sandwich, and then she said

41:13

that she was tired and she had to

41:15

go right to bed. Oh, I see. How

41:18

did she pay you? Cash, check, cash. Cash.

41:20

And

41:23

after she left, she didn't come back. Well,

41:26

why should she? And

41:29

I noticed earlier that it's a dip pen that

41:31

is used to sign the register. It's a nice

41:33

little touch. I mean, I guess they

41:35

were more common back then anyway, but it

41:38

kind of hints at the place being old

41:40

and so on. One of the

41:42

things, again, that's more emphasised in the book, how old

41:44

the house is, and again, it doesn't

41:46

so much come across in the film, but the

41:48

place is supposed to be very archaic, that

41:51

it's very much a place out of

41:53

time, that it almost feels like it's

41:55

a Victorian house. I think it

41:57

gets that feel. It feels old. You know, it's a

41:59

bit of A. We the architectural style is

42:01

a classic American Victorian Gothic style

42:03

house. Arbogast cut his

42:06

side of the silhouette of Normans

42:08

mother in her bedroom window. He

42:10

asked to speak to about Norman insists

42:12

that she is too ill our biggest

42:14

drives to a phone booth and tells

42:17

a the about his discoveries. Arbogast

42:19

been the at great the to to

42:21

investigate to the his disability nice to

42:23

question Mrs. Bates and heads back to

42:25

the motel then the house behind after

42:27

failing to find Norman in his office.

42:30

Is our biggest, goes upstairs and old

42:33

woman charges out of the bedroom and

42:35

stabs him, send him in tumbling down

42:37

the staircase and then cynicism off as

42:39

a great piece. A cinematographer easy see

42:42

the the camera follows him as he's

42:44

falling over comically down the stairs backwards.

42:47

He. Has a so fantastic thing. I

42:49

think this this rivals the shower

42:51

saying read this is this weird.

42:54

Looking down at the top of the stairs like

42:56

the landing at the top the says the cameras

42:58

looking down on the top of their heads is

43:00

kind of coming up the stairs and he doesn't

43:02

see how come out of the bet I'm in

43:05

I'm signed her Norman come out the bedroom. And

43:08

cheese is. An awesome as

43:11

charges but just walks very assertively up

43:13

to him with the noise rise than

43:15

just stop Summit site. Really?

43:18

Rapid. without being rushed is and

43:20

and the as any as you say my

43:22

say this guy seen of him of them

43:24

are not to blame but falling backwards down

43:26

the stairs great. Point. Also

43:28

that overhead view is a very

43:30

neat way of is not showing

43:32

the characters face whom they come

43:34

charging out of the bedroom and

43:36

is something we see again a

43:38

bit later in the form of

43:41

scene where uses exactly the same

43:43

homemade view is. There are also

43:45

some pretty clever settle things like

43:47

this thrive the film which perhaps

43:49

seasons of auto stylized and the

43:51

moment but he realized later with

43:53

their very much to disguise things

43:55

that would be northeast the audience

43:57

had to be. Sauce in a normal

43:59

way. When. Our biggest

44:01

sales Richard the hardware store for

44:03

some tries often checks the motel

44:05

who but can't find anyone there.

44:07

He in high doesn't go to

44:09

L Chambers the deputy sheriff cell

44:12

visting and but his home in

44:14

Chambers and his wife. She is

44:16

a story but suggests that our

44:18

biggest to simply follow them. Other

44:20

lead disposal a tower Sam canvases

44:22

Chambers to call the motel. Norman

44:24

however just tells Chambers that our

44:26

biggest left hours ago. What?

44:29

Puzzles Chambers However, is there mention

44:31

of Normans mother? We see. His

44:33

reaction to this is is kind

44:36

of quizzical. When it's when it's

44:38

both up split unlimited Explain. He

44:41

reveals though bit lighter that

44:43

this is based Died in

44:45

a murder stroke suicide ten

44:47

years ago, poisoning her lover

44:49

and then herself. When Sam

44:51

insists he saw has sitting

44:53

at the window, Chambers asks.

44:56

A woman up there's Mrs. Bates.

45:00

Who's that woman? Married out green

45:02

lawns and. Ah

45:05

ah. And I

45:07

think against this a good bit of

45:09

rice and because it's. The.

45:12

Tells us that something is very

45:14

wrong but immediately numbers us a

45:16

missed our rates of false explanation

45:18

freight. Yeah. From a gaming

45:20

point of view, has love doing

45:22

stuff like Sides Were You has

45:24

those moments where. The

45:27

players or the characters start to realize

45:29

it's perhaps events aren't quite as they

45:31

dusty thought they were initially presented. Birds

45:33

says this alternative explanation that neatly Spain's

45:35

of I see these that must be

45:38

it's the everybody wants to come up

45:40

with a solution and they'll grab onto

45:42

the book the obvious one that he

45:44

fade out to them now to allow

45:46

grow lot must on clever. I've figured

45:48

out what it is that enough they

45:50

haven't. Back. Of

45:52

the bake sales we had over to his mother

45:54

arguing about his plan to hide or in the

45:57

fruit salad. norman insists

45:59

carry her down despite her

46:01

protests. And this is the other

46:03

overhead shot. She might as well

46:05

suddenly in retrospect appear to be quite still

46:07

as she is being carried along. Yes.

46:12

But this bit does reinforce the fact that she is

46:14

there then, because we see her. Yes,

46:17

again, very neat, Miss direct. The

46:20

following day, Chambers tells Lyler and Sam that

46:22

he's checked the Bates house, but there was

46:24

no sign of an old woman there. Of

46:28

course, they're tenacious and frustrated and

46:30

they decide that they're going to

46:32

check all this out for themselves.

46:35

Yeah, this is a good bit of

46:37

investigator work here. This is where your

46:39

Cthulhu investigators come in. They check into

46:42

the hotel, but Norman is immediately suspicious

46:44

about their lack of baggage. Once

46:48

Norman goes back to the house, Lyler

46:50

and Sam snoop around. They're

46:53

not in the same room, but they

46:55

know which room the, well, they don't

46:57

know it was murder, but they know

46:59

which room Marian had because Arbogast told

47:01

them in a good bit

47:03

of spot hidden and finding a clue. They

47:05

find an unflushed fragment of

47:08

Marian sums that little bit of paper she

47:10

had earlier in the adventure. If you're going

47:12

to call it earlier in the film where

47:14

she creates this little clue and this little

47:16

handout and then ripped it up and a

47:18

fragment doesn't get flushed in the toilet and

47:22

they spot the number 40,000 on it and they're

47:24

like, ah, and it just gives

47:27

me this whole thing is also a great counter

47:29

to the classic we call the police because

47:32

they have done that. They've got

47:34

deputy chambers to investigate and he's gone

47:36

up there. He's been foiled by Norman

47:38

Bates. He's come

47:40

back and sort of said, oh yeah, no, nothing to

47:42

worry about. But they know

47:45

that there's still something they need

47:47

to do. And I think again, from a

47:49

gaming point of view, that's a good

47:51

way of handling it, that the police, when

47:53

you call them, don't find anything. But you

47:55

know there's something wrong there. Are you just

47:57

going to let that lie? Sam

48:00

agrees to keep Norman busy while Lila checks

48:02

the house. Lila finds the

48:04

mother's bedroom, but it's empty, although

48:07

it shows signs of occupation. There's

48:09

a deep indentation in the bed. Moving

48:13

on to Norman's room, she finds a

48:15

child's bed and toys. She

48:17

picks up a book with no markings on

48:19

the cover and is shocked by its contents.

48:23

There's a bit when she's in Norman's mother's

48:25

bedroom, which is all well

48:27

preserved and as she would have had it, she

48:31

goes over to the wardrobe and opens up the

48:33

wardrobe and there's all of his mother's dresses lined

48:35

up in there. That

48:38

brought back a memory to me of

48:40

something else. Somebody

48:43

else who very much did this, Jimmy Savile, a

48:46

serial abuser in Britain. It's

48:49

either in Louis Theroux's documentary about

48:51

him or the recent

48:53

BBC documentaries about him with Steve

48:55

Coogan. All

48:58

his kept his mother's room just as

49:00

it was and the wardrobe has got

49:02

all her dresses like hung up in

49:05

plastic bags, all kept just

49:07

as they were. Whilst

49:09

Norman Bates and Savile, I'm

49:11

not sure there's that much parallel between them. I

49:14

just thought it was an interesting similarity.

49:17

Yeah, I guess the

49:19

other similarity is if room was about

49:21

necrophilia. Well,

49:23

yeah. It's not like there's no

49:25

similarities. Yeah. But

49:29

the child's bedroom as well, obviously all

49:31

of that is very creepy. It again

49:33

points to a difference between the film

49:35

and the book in that

49:37

in the film, the way

49:39

they presented is, spoilers,

49:42

Norman very much has two personalities.

49:44

He's got this sort of boyish

49:46

version, this man child version

49:48

of him, and he's got the

49:50

mother personality. But the

49:53

way Block presented it and wrote

49:55

about it afterwards, there were sort

49:57

of three personalities for Book Norman.

50:00

There was the child version of him, there

50:02

was the sort of sleazy adult version of

50:04

him, and then there's Mother. About

50:07

the only hint we see of

50:09

that sleazy side of

50:11

him, apart from him spying

50:15

on Marion through the peephole earlier, is

50:18

just this very subtle bit with Lila picking

50:20

up the book with nothing on the

50:22

cover and reading through it. Because

50:26

there are mentions of

50:28

his pornography collection in the

50:31

novel, but this is just

50:33

sort of, I think, alluding to that

50:35

without actually stating anything here in the

50:37

film. It could also,

50:39

again, this is all open to interpretation, it could

50:41

be that she picked up one of his books

50:43

on the occult, because he's reading a fairly graphic

50:46

section about practices of cannibalistic

50:48

tribes in one book at the

50:50

very beginning of the book. So

50:52

it could be that she's seen something

50:54

that's, again, horrible practice about how they

50:56

make certain death drums with the skin

50:58

of victims being pulled taut over the

51:01

instruments they create and so forth. So

51:03

it could be either, because you don't see anything, it's

51:05

completely open to interpretation as to what it is that

51:08

she's actually looking at. Maybe,

51:10

but the reason I seized on

51:12

pornography there was that

51:15

it's very deliberately a book with no

51:17

writing on the cover, nothing to indicate

51:19

what it is, which at

51:21

the time that this was made

51:24

would have been how pornography was

51:26

distributed or pornographic books, because you

51:28

didn't want to advertise what was

51:30

in them. So I

51:32

think that's much more of the implication

51:34

rather than it being that

51:36

book on anthropology that was discussed in the

51:38

novel. Meanwhile Sam talks

51:41

to Norman, hinting that Norman may have stolen

51:43

the $40,000. And

51:46

Norman intuits that Lila is searching the house, he

51:48

knocks Sam out with an urn and runs back

51:50

up the hill. Woman

52:00

sitting in his with which. She

52:03

walks right up and turns

52:05

the share around and we

52:08

see as she does this

52:10

mummified say this skeletal face

52:12

with mummified skyn overwritten these

52:15

empty eye sockets. As

52:18

Lyla screams normal burst into the

52:20

room wearing a wig and address

52:23

wielding a large kitchen knife. Before.

52:25

Norman has a chance to stab Lie

52:28

the however Sam also runs into the

52:30

room and subdued him. And

52:33

became this is a very quick

52:35

seem Moon Norman's finals caption City

52:37

will say response Ten. App.

52:41

A Fi and maneuver. Civil

52:44

Road no One million. Now

52:46

we. Got to the courthouse some sunlight

52:48

a. Normal. Has been examined

52:50

by Doctor Steiner. Psychologists.

52:54

A. Sign or explains that he's learned the

52:56

truth, but not from Norman. Brother.

52:58

He has been speaking to Norman's mother.

53:01

Outcomes: The Leaderboard: Norman.

53:04

Bates no longer exists. Dinah tells

53:06

us he details how Normand to

53:09

com aspects of his mother's personality

53:11

after her death. Norman murdered his

53:14

mother out the jealousy when

53:16

she took her lover, later digging

53:18

up her corpse and preserving it

53:20

using his taxidermy skills so it

53:23

wasn't just birds. But

53:26

also what you're saying, they're about the beach aboard.

53:29

In. The book norman is

53:31

very interesting specialism and and

53:33

say he's z passing mentions

53:36

who sets. I

53:38

can remember the context that he

53:41

and some point confronted with his

53:43

rounds. He was mother's return or

53:45

something. But sees

53:47

it as as necromancy. Caesar is

53:49

having come back from the dead.

53:53

Gather. Soak about the he he heard her

53:55

talking and like in the coffin know something

53:57

something like that than the others again that

53:59

very. The usual state where even

54:01

thinks the corpses her to some

54:04

degree. As Normans

54:06

guilt grew, so did his mother's influence.

54:08

He stepped more and more into her

54:10

role, dressing as her and sleeping in

54:13

our bed. He was simply doing everything

54:15

possible to keep alive the illusion of

54:17

his mother be alive. And

54:21

when reality thing too close. And

54:23

danger or desire threat? That

54:25

of those. A

54:29

dress or. Even to achieve with

54:31

you bought a book about the house. sit

54:33

in her chair, speak in her voice. He

54:37

tries to be his mother. Now

54:42

he is. He's

54:45

jealousy towards her became reflect interpersonal

54:47

to use as jealousy towards him

54:49

rising every time dorm and grew

54:52

close to a woman. The murders

54:54

were committed by Mrs. Personality and

54:57

Norman thought that he was covering

54:59

up so crimes. As

55:01

a final staying with the norman in

55:03

his cell. His. Personality now

55:05

completely that of the mother.

55:08

We. Had a final internal monologue and

55:11

she plans to deflect blame on to

55:13

Norman. Convincing. The authorities

55:15

The Sea is just a harmless

55:17

old woman. She looks. Direct.

55:19

Me and camera. And. Tells

55:22

us she wouldn't. Know

55:32

that would. Put

55:35

him away. Source:

55:39

L A. And

55:42

in the end, he intended to

55:44

serve my town house. And that

55:46

man has decided to do anything.

55:50

Like bonuses day. They

55:54

know I can't even the lesson Death

55:56

and I won't I just said he

55:58

owned a cloud does. in case they

56:00

do suspect me. They're

56:06

probably watching me. Well,

56:08

let them, let them see what

56:10

kind of a person I am. I'm

56:14

not even gonna swat that fly. I

56:16

hope they are watching. They'll see,

56:19

they'll see and they'll know and

56:21

they'll say. She

56:24

wouldn't even harm a fly.

56:28

I thought it was a nice touch, how it just kind of,

56:30

you know, looks directly at us at the end there. It's

56:34

interesting that we get this psychiatrist

56:37

sort of explaining all this at the end because

56:40

Robert Block wrote in this

56:42

autobiography basically that he had no experience

56:45

of psychiatry, that he didn't

56:47

know any psychiatrists and that

56:49

he basically just invented all this stuff

56:51

from whole cloth. But

56:54

I think this, again, like the cross-dressing

56:56

killer trope that we were talking about

56:58

earlier, then perhaps

57:00

feeds into another trope that's

57:03

been perpetuated throughout the years of

57:05

people with multiple personalities or dissociative

57:08

identity disorders it is referred

57:11

to now, but harboring murderous

57:13

personalities. We were talking about

57:15

split in the psychological

57:18

horror episode and it's something that has

57:20

cropped up time again. Quite

57:22

often with the cross-dressing killer

57:24

trope. From the

57:26

little bits I understand about

57:29

it, it's not anything like

57:31

it's portrayed here, but this

57:33

is the version that we

57:36

now see, I think almost

57:39

exclusively thanks to Psycho, perpetuated

57:41

throughout horror fiction and throughout

57:43

dark thrillers. Well

57:46

that's the power of fiction, isn't it? I

57:49

didn't watch it thinking it was a documentary. To

57:52

me this isn't how all motel operators

57:55

work. You're

57:58

shattering my loon here, man. I

58:02

can't remember if I watched this with

58:05

the family some years ago. We

58:07

watched a few psycho films when

58:09

the children were

58:11

in late teenagers. So

58:14

we might have watched this one. I kind of think

58:17

we did. Otherwise, before that, it's a long

58:19

time. So I watched this. And coming

58:21

to it again, I was like, well, I remember

58:23

it being pretty good, but I'm not sure how

58:25

it will stand up. And I got to say,

58:27

I mean, it was compelling all the way through.

58:30

And more than that, it was like, outstandingly

58:32

good in terms of just the...

58:35

Well, we talked about the sound and the visuals. I

58:37

mean, all that stuff. You can sort

58:40

of say that stuff about a film that's

58:42

a bit crap. It can have great sound and great

58:44

visuals. But, you know, it's compelling

58:46

watch all the way through. I thought it stood

58:48

up as a really good film throughout. Yeah.

58:51

Yeah, really good performances. And

58:53

it'd be fascinating to see... And

58:56

there are probably accounts of this, but to

58:59

watch it without knowing anything

59:01

about it, or particularly being in

59:04

the audience in 1960 and seeing it and

59:06

not knowing... Because I don't know when it

59:08

would dawn on me that it's Norman doing

59:10

the murders. I'm not sure I doubt if

59:12

I would have clocked that very quickly. As

59:15

we were saying as well earlier, it's like to a modern

59:17

audience, I think the majority of

59:19

people know this. But I'm sure, as more and more

59:22

people are coming up, new

59:24

generations, it's going to be new to them, I

59:27

guess, but if they can avoid the spoilers. But

59:30

it's just become such an

59:32

essential part of popular culture. Yeah, it's hard

59:34

to avoid. It's like the end of Planet

59:37

of the Apes. And Norman Bates

59:39

as a character is just a

59:41

sort of byword for all sorts

59:44

of horror tropes. Yeah. You

59:46

know, it's good when the Simpsons have parroted it. Yeah,

59:49

I think literally that was what my kids said at the

59:51

end of perhaps Planet

59:53

of the Apes. A few

59:55

films, they've been, oh yeah, we knew that was going to happen because

59:57

we've seen it on the Simpsons. bit

1:00:00

of a bit like, ehh, that is

1:00:02

a bit of a shame. But

1:00:04

of course this birthed sequels,

1:00:08

both in print and on

1:00:10

screen. Block

1:00:12

published Psycho II in 1982. Before

1:00:16

it had been published he'd shopped it

1:00:18

round a bit and his

1:00:20

agent approached Universal Studios to see if they

1:00:23

wanted to adapt it, but

1:00:25

they absolutely hated it and decided to

1:00:27

make their own film, also called Psycho

1:00:29

II, which was based on

1:00:31

an original screenplay by Tom Holland. Did

1:00:35

you read the sequels, Matt? No,

1:00:37

mainly because I saw the description of Psycho

1:00:39

II. I've got a big three in one

1:00:42

volume where I've got Psycho II as Psycho

1:00:44

House in the same volume as the original

1:00:46

Psycho. And I was

1:00:48

reading the description at the front in

1:00:50

the dust jacket cover and

1:00:53

where it said the following. Psycho

1:00:55

II, Dr. Adam Claiborne thought Norman Bates

1:00:57

was on the road to recovery until

1:00:59

Norman killed a young nun and escaped

1:01:01

from the asylum dressed in her habit.

1:01:04

Now the psychiatrist and former patient are engaged in

1:01:06

a desperate and deadly game of cat and mouse.

1:01:09

Claiborne knows that Norman will head for Hollywood

1:01:11

where a movie based on the Bates Motel

1:01:13

murders is underway, but no actor

1:01:16

can portray Norman Bates, and Norman

1:01:18

will see to that himself. That's

1:01:22

not actually what the book is. I read that and that

1:01:24

was enough for me to think, hang on a minute, this

1:01:27

is not the Psycho II that I remember seeing. No,

1:01:31

I mean it's definitely not the film. The

1:01:33

film's very different. The book, I'd

1:01:36

say, is interesting, deeply flawed.

1:01:39

I absolutely hate the opening with

1:01:41

Norman escaping from the psychiatric

1:01:44

hospital and the whole way it's

1:01:46

handled is not only

1:01:48

improbable but is actually quite tasteless

1:01:51

in places without going into details.

1:01:54

There's some stuff in there that is

1:01:56

creepy and not in a good way. Which

1:02:00

I'll hear the book actually has nothing to

1:02:02

do directly with Norman and is almost

1:02:05

a parody of Hollywood at the time and

1:02:07

to the horror movie industry. What

1:02:09

it reminded me of more than anything

1:02:11

else was Scream 3, which came out

1:02:14

like 18 years later, in that they're

1:02:16

both about horror films being

1:02:18

based on real murders and then

1:02:22

the people involved with the real murders

1:02:24

getting involved with the film adaptation. I

1:02:26

think Scream 3 has an awful lot

1:02:28

to box book. I

1:02:30

don't think it's entirely successful but there's

1:02:32

some fun parody in there. And

1:02:36

similarly his second sequel, Psycho House,

1:02:39

is again an attempt at a form of

1:02:41

satire in that it's set

1:02:43

a little while later and is

1:02:45

about a businessman in

1:02:48

Fairvale who tried to turn the

1:02:50

old Bates Motel and House into

1:02:52

a tourist attraction. I

1:02:55

think that's quite a clever idea. Block

1:02:57

then uses it to a

1:03:00

fairly by the numbers murder mystery which I

1:03:02

don't think really was. It's

1:03:04

got a nice twist and reveal at the end but I'd

1:03:07

say out of the three books it's the most forgettable.

1:03:10

Now, that's if you've seen any of the sequel films.

1:03:13

I've seen two and four, I haven't seen three. No,

1:03:16

I don't think so. Two

1:03:18

I think is actually

1:03:21

pretty good. There are some parts of

1:03:23

it that don't work but

1:03:25

I'd like the

1:03:27

approach they take of Norman having been

1:03:30

released from the psychiatric hospital,

1:03:32

rehabilitated, trying to reintegrate

1:03:34

with society and then things

1:03:37

happening, no spoilers, that undermine

1:03:39

that and take him more

1:03:41

and more back to the ones that he used to be.

1:03:44

I really like that sort

1:03:47

of poignancy of him trying to

1:03:50

be a better person and everything working

1:03:52

against him. It's

1:03:55

also significantly more graphic than the first one

1:03:57

as well. particularly

1:04:00

a couple of moments, they're not really spoilers,

1:04:02

but one that involved

1:04:04

a trowel being rammed down someone's

1:04:07

throat or rammed into their

1:04:09

mouth and then the quite grisly discovery of

1:04:11

the body afterwards and

1:04:13

then the out of the blue

1:04:15

cold shovel that

1:04:17

happens. Yeah that was

1:04:20

kind of wild, did not expect that to happen

1:04:22

right then. So yeah it's

1:04:24

very graphic in parts. Psycho

1:04:27

3 I'd say is the weakest out of

1:04:29

the bunch. It's got some reasonable moments and

1:04:31

it's got some fun characters but it's sleazy,

1:04:34

it's nasty, it's quite

1:04:37

weird, quite a horny film

1:04:39

in a lot of ways and

1:04:41

yeah I don't think it really

1:04:44

quite comes together. Psycho 4 I

1:04:47

thought was a real missed opportunity, it had

1:04:49

some great stuff in there. The center

1:04:52

of it is this phone-in radio

1:04:54

show where they're talking about children

1:04:56

who have killed their mothers and

1:04:59

Norman Bates having been released from

1:05:01

hospital, it ignores the previous two

1:05:04

sequels, having been released from hospital

1:05:06

and trying to make a new life for himself

1:05:08

again, phones in and starts giving

1:05:10

his side to the story and there's a

1:05:12

real heart to that and a real, it's

1:05:14

a really good hook which

1:05:17

I think falls apart completely in

1:05:19

the end. The ending of it is

1:05:21

just fucking awful.

1:05:24

Bit lackluster to say the least. Yeah

1:05:27

that's the one that's mostly the flashbacks isn't it,

1:05:29

where it goes back to the events leading up

1:05:31

to him killing his mother. There's

1:05:34

also Bates Motel, both the

1:05:36

TV movie from 1987 and then the

1:05:38

TV series from

1:05:42

when was it 2013? Did I see the TV

1:05:44

program? No neither. I

1:05:51

watched the first couple of episodes of it and couldn't get

1:05:53

into it but I keep hearing good things about it so

1:05:55

I must go back and give it another try but it's

1:05:58

a sort of prequel. Psycho

1:06:00

with teenage Norman

1:06:02

Bates and his mother starting

1:06:05

the motel. Thank

1:06:08

you, Lincoln! You're

1:06:10

listening to the good friends of Chatsnevias.

1:06:13

You can find show notes for

1:06:15

this episode at blasthmustones.com, where

1:06:17

you will also find links to all

1:06:19

our social media presences. We

1:06:22

have t-shirts and other merchandise available at

1:06:24

our RedBabble store. And

1:06:26

if you're enjoying the show, please consider

1:06:28

backing us at patreon.com slash

1:06:31

good friends of Chatsnevias. It

1:06:36

is that time once again when

1:06:39

we would like to say thank you to people. It

1:06:44

is that time once again when we would like to say

1:06:46

thank you to people. Thank you first

1:06:48

of all to you for listening to this podcast.

1:06:51

Thank you very much to anyone who has ever backed a

1:06:53

steady stage. And we have

1:06:55

a number of new backers to thank by

1:06:57

name. Thanks to

1:06:59

Austin Owens. And this

1:07:02

is almost a topical entry here in the list. Thank

1:07:04

you to Mother of Eldridge. And

1:07:07

thank you very much to Eleanor Kershaw.

1:07:10

And thanks to Isabel Cooper. Thank

1:07:13

you very much also to David Burke. Aha,

1:07:15

and a familiar name here. Thank you

1:07:17

very much to Tom Boyd Lacroix. And

1:07:20

thanks to Mickey. Hehehe, I

1:07:22

like this, I like these names. And

1:07:25

also thank you very much to Filthy Monkey.

1:07:28

You bad monkey. And

1:07:30

as ever if you are enjoying the good friends

1:07:32

of Chatsnevias, we would love it if you let

1:07:35

people know whether this means leaving

1:07:37

a review somewhere where reviews might be

1:07:39

found or simply writing about it on

1:07:41

a bit of paper and bundling it

1:07:43

up in a newspaper and leaving it

1:07:45

on your Moto Nightstand where people

1:07:47

might find it or not find it or just

1:07:49

drop it into a sump. We're

1:07:51

not fast. Okay, well that

1:07:53

wraps up our discussion of Psycho. You've been

1:07:55

listening to the good friends of Chatsnevias. Until

1:07:58

next time, it's a goodbye from me. and

1:08:00

Cheerio from me and a farewell from me. www.blasphemestomes.com

1:08:14

www.blasphemestomes.com

1:08:24

I might go and have a shower now.