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0:31

CREDITS

0:37

Into the final moments, Alex Payne trying

0:39

to keep this side going forward. Haskell takes

0:41

it on now, just relentless chat, largely about

0:43

himself. And there's Tyndall to

0:45

add the finishing touch of glamour and World

0:48

Cup winning stories. And a slightly sideways

0:50

nose. That is how you podcast.

0:53

A dominant display by the good, the

0:55

bad, and the rugby. Hello,

0:57

Dream Team. I hope you're well. Welcome to this week's

1:00

episode of the good, the bad, and the rugby. Brought to you by our very good

1:02

friends at Continental Tires. And today,

1:04

we are down at Northampton Old Scouts.

1:07

Which is a grassroots club that has produced

1:09

the likes of Steve Thompson and Ben Cohen. But

1:11

today, Tins Hask and I have come to see

1:13

an old boy of these parts. A legend

1:16

in this territory. Such a big legend, in fact, that

1:18

I understand

1:19

he's turned on the Christmas lights. Have you

1:21

reached that big a big time, Courtney Laws? Maybe

1:24

this year. We'll see. I think I've been asked. Is that right?

1:26

You are going to or you have done? I haven't done

1:28

it yet. But I have been asked. Is

1:31

it apparently your fee was too... you were asking too much

1:33

for a level? Yeah, well, it's more

1:35

than three years of their budget. Time is money!

1:38

Big C. Tell me about it, bro. Where...

1:42

in Northampton is this? Yeah, Northampton

1:44

Centre, I think. Press the button. A

1:47

few bits going on, I don't know. I once turned the lights on in High

1:49

Wycombe with Frank Bruno. Did you? Just

1:52

swear on my life. Put the turner down. All right,

1:54

Harry. Two sporting legends. One

1:57

legend and me. How

2:00

are you? Thank you for coming to do this. Thank

2:02

you. No worries. No worries. Thank you for the pleasure. How

2:04

are tricks? Is it, is it, is it a surreal

2:07

period to be off the back of all things while we woke up? Is it, is

2:09

it like nothing's ever changed? Where are you at with? Yeah.

2:11

Yeah. It's a bit weird. It's a bit weird. Like,

2:13

um, because obviously, uh, with the

2:15

family, all we've ever known is me

2:18

kind of coming and going, you

2:20

know, you get back, takes you a month to settle

2:22

in, a month later you're gone again. Like,

2:25

um, so it's quite nice to be home

2:27

for good, you know? So, uh, yeah, it's

2:30

a bit weird, but, uh, I like it. Have you had time

2:32

to process the World

2:34

Cup? Cause obviously if we're two week post you

2:36

played yesterday, um, have you

2:39

really debriefed in your

2:41

own mind in terms of how it went or are you

2:43

just, will you do that a later date and just concentrate

2:46

getting back to the Saints? I dunno, like,

2:48

um,

2:49

I suppose you, I mean, I didn't play the last game.

2:51

So I had that kind of week because I

2:54

know, I know what was going to play to kind of process

2:57

what was going on. I don't know how I felt about

2:59

it. Obviously, um, you know, it's kind

3:01

of bittersweet. I was quite sad

3:03

in a lot of ways cause I wasn't going to play again.

3:05

Um, but I was happy in a lot of ways cause I'd

3:08

gotten

3:08

most everything I wanted to individually,

3:11

uh, of, um, that campaign

3:14

and I suppose my England career as

3:16

a whole.

3:16

Um,

3:18

so yeah, so again, it's a bit of a weird period.

3:20

Um, but I just tried to enjoy my last week in camp, um,

3:24

enjoy being around the boys, um, cause

3:26

yeah, that that's definitely the main

3:28

part on my second. Any tears

3:30

when you said goodbye? Well, no,

3:33

no, I'm not like super emotional. So obviously,

3:36

I've seen breaking news. You

3:38

won the lottery.

3:40

Courtney, you're on fire. No,

3:45

yeah. I mean, yeah, I was, I was, I

3:47

was sad. Um, I did, yeah,

3:50

feel somewhat emotional. I'm not going to

3:52

cry about anything. I mean, it's, I mean, it's rugby at

3:54

the end of the day. Yeah. But

3:56

also I don't think people, we, we've been doing

3:58

the show. We're on tour at the moment and.

3:59

Northampton we were obviously talking about

4:02

Northampton players, talked about you, obviously our friendship,

4:04

what a legend and what a world-class player you are. And

4:06

we've kind of talked about kind of also the other

4:09

side of you which I think will come on to because you, people

4:12

would look at you and go right rugby, obviously

4:14

good looking lad, there's not a lot of

4:16

other things going on but you're so in tune with

4:19

politics and society

4:21

and everything else. Do you think that

4:23

interest and all that has made it easier

4:25

to go actually I'm just going to step away and not be

4:27

overly emotional? Yeah

4:29

I think I've always kind of tried

4:32

to look at the grand scheme of things and obviously being

4:36

able to play rugby is

4:38

quite a privilege like obviously not

4:41

everyone can do it.

4:43

It's an extremely

4:45

hard job to do and

4:47

it really takes its toll on you

4:49

but at the same time it's not like you're going to

4:51

war, you're putting your life on the line every

4:53

day that kind of stuff so to

4:55

the best of your ability. It's quite a few

4:57

tens did put their life on the line when you were having

5:00

a bad trip. Yeah it's very true actually. Jules

5:02

Piesl, he was still trying to find his head.

5:05

Apparently he's still down at 316 in Richmond. There's

5:07

going to be a bush just rotting. Yeah I

5:09

know. Just to get back to the farewell,

5:12

off the back of it I imagine

5:14

it was quite an emotional roller coaster of rugby World

5:16

Cup. Do you get a handshake and a pat on the bum? Do you get

5:18

a sort of decanter from the RFU? Do you have some

5:20

nice words from Steve Borthwick or do you

5:22

just pat your bags and walk off into the sunset?

5:25

Next it is off the back of three

5:27

or four months of pretty intense.

5:30

No I mean there's no kind

5:32

of patty gift or anything like that but I don't

5:34

think I was ever expecting anything like that.

5:36

I mean I spoke to Steve, we

5:40

spoke about whether I was going to play in the last game or

5:42

what I wanted to do. I kind of said that I don't

5:44

want to stand in anyone's way through

5:47

our last hurrah or whatever.

5:50

Like do what you've got to do kind

5:52

of thing. It's a really good decision

5:55

to play Undis which is obviously

5:57

a really good decision. Great player

5:59

and look it was really good to see him back on

6:01

the team.

6:02

And when you get home

6:04

off the back of a farewell to

6:07

you know the what

6:09

you've achieved in the game 82,000 the

6:11

Stade de France do you walk back in we actually saw

6:14

your your wife and kids in Marseille for the

6:16

opening game do you get given time

6:18

to decompress or you handed the washing up and

6:20

the lawnmower and a paintbrush and told right

6:22

you're back in get going.

6:24

I mean generally

6:27

when I get home I like to just

6:29

get stuck back into it because the missus has also

6:31

been at home on her own for the past two

6:34

three four months with all the

6:36

kids so that

6:37

I can't be like look I need a week she's

6:40

about that business woman as well yeah she does yeah

6:43

she's got her own business she obviously looks

6:45

after all the kids keeps them alive

6:48

yeah she's she's so gets

6:50

in the gym a bit and that so I'm happy with that

6:52

you know I mean you know I can't

6:55

complain so when I get home yeah

6:57

I just get stuck back in and it's not like it's

7:00

like I don't want to do that I'm

7:03

pretty easy going as you

7:05

all know anyway so I just kind of take things in my stride

7:07

and

7:08

over overly think about it

7:10

and as I said I had that last week to kind of yeah

7:13

decompress a bit enjoyment up the last

7:15

bit of time with the team and by

7:18

the time I got back home I was ready to

7:20

yeah I basically spent

7:22

that week sorting my life out so much admin

7:24

I got testimonial going on this year and stuff like that so

7:26

I've been been pretty busy do you how do

7:28

you feel in yourself at the moment do

7:31

you think because you do you retire because you don't feel

7:33

like you could you I know you said about family

7:35

but I know what competitors you are like if you still got it

7:38

in the tank you know we always haven't seen you know

7:40

your your we still I think we've still got some

7:43

of your best days to come do you feel like that or do you feel

7:45

like you've peaked do you feel like you could still do a job the

7:47

main reason I am retiring or pretty

7:50

much the only reason I'm retiring is because my kids

7:52

are now old enough that

7:55

I can do so much of them like I

7:57

feel like I have to be there I

8:00

want to be there. Just

8:02

sit like with all the boys. We all, you know, we go

8:04

to the park every couple of days, play football. Like they

8:06

just grow so much when you're able to do stuff

8:09

with them time and time again. And

8:12

when, like I said, if I'd have got

8:14

home two weeks ago in

8:16

end of January, I'd be going away

8:18

again.

8:19

And it's like, even

8:21

when you get home and you're like, Oh, I'm home for a while now,

8:24

you're there, you take you a month to get settled

8:26

back in, you maybe got a month

8:29

and then you're away again. So I didn't want

8:33

to be in that routine anymore.

8:35

I wanted to get out of that. I wanted to get some proper structure,

8:38

family structure.

8:40

And I wanted to, you know, give

8:42

myself to my kids instead

8:44

of

8:45

my country, I guess. You had a good win yesterday. Are

8:48

you still feeling like there's a lot of miles in the tank?

8:50

I mean, if Lions is only 18 months away, would

8:52

you say, hello, you know, keep an army

8:54

down here because of, I've been there and done

8:57

it or? I'm just going to take you to each season

8:59

as it comes at this point, to be honest. Yeah,

9:02

exactly. What is

9:04

your situation? Have you got another two years? No, no,

9:07

I've got one year with Saints. One year with Saints.

9:09

And then yeah, we'll see what happens. Right. Conversations.

9:12

Not yet. I just saw his phone. He's got the

9:14

Duolingo app. So

9:17

we wish language. There's many on there. I've

9:19

heard of Japanese. I did enjoy Japan. Yeah. It'd be

9:21

class. They'd

9:26

love big C down in Japan.

9:29

Yeah, I heard Eddie's. Yeah, well, we

9:31

don't know. Would you ever do that? Because obviously

9:34

you've been a Saints man, you know, through the, would you, would

9:36

you go on and do try something else? Yeah,

9:38

I would definitely, I don't think I

9:40

would ever go to now, you know,

9:42

the French

9:44

league. Yeah. It's

9:46

just,

9:47

it's not like international rugby. It's just like,

9:49

so it's brutal out there. So look,

9:52

I'm not looking to get any,

9:54

get any more beat up, to be honest. If

9:56

we can sail into sunset with some nice cash

9:59

in hand. that would be fantastic. But you

10:01

know, I, I, I, um, Sounds

10:04

like America. I'm going to see. MLR,

10:06

would you go and do a bit of coaching role? I

10:10

don't know. Yeah, but you went down real well in, but do you remember

10:12

that? I mean, obviously, you know, you were part of it. That time you walked

10:14

through a pool party in Vegas and everyone stopped and thought

10:16

you were an NBA player. And then like, yeah, that was a thought.

10:19

Yeah, fine. Just never know what, you know,

10:21

never know what's been told. Always

10:23

take the moral eye. Yeah, always

10:25

professional. Yeah. But you

10:27

walked around the pool party and everyone was like, who the fuck

10:30

is that? Just like big old sieges bowling round tattooed

10:32

up. People like that as a fucking, like women go, no, like

10:34

getting the vapors and falling over. You would go

10:36

down real well in America. Yeah, potentially. Like

10:38

I said, we'll see what happens. I'm not, I'm

10:41

not in any kind of negotiations at the minute,

10:43

but stay fit and we'll

10:45

see what happens. So to wind it back to the beginning and

10:48

to where we are now, I mean, how old

10:50

were you when you first started playing here? And if

10:52

you look back now as a young kid to

10:55

where you are now with all that you've achieved, would you,

10:57

would you have taken that? Was that always sort

10:59

of, I've got what it takes. I

11:01

started playing here when I was 15 ish. So

11:05

Northam school for boys and literally

11:07

on the other side of them trees. And

11:10

that's where I actually started playing rugby when I was 13.

11:12

And then, yeah, we back row, we second

11:15

row. I start off at six. Did you ended

11:17

up going to the wing? Wow. Then

11:19

second row.

11:20

And now back to what hell that would have been winged back

11:22

to second row. Yeah. Yeah. Well,

11:25

can I go back in the back row? No, maybe. Yeah. Literally.

11:28

Um, but, but yeah, so

11:30

started there, came to here and then,

11:33

I mean, yeah, look, I, uh, I

11:35

don't think anybody ever expects,

11:37

um, to kind of go on the journey

11:39

that they, they go on in terms of rugby, but,

11:41

um, I

11:42

kind of, Who was it or when did you get

11:45

the kind of the tap on the shoulder, which is you've

11:47

got what it takes if you do X, Y, Z.

11:49

Did you, do you have a coach who said, actually, Courtney, I

11:52

think you can go along with

11:54

my first season, um,

11:57

at Northam school for boys. We had

11:59

a coach called. Norman Barker and

12:01

he's passed away now, unfortunately.

12:04

But he, in the first

12:07

few months of me playing rugby, made me

12:09

say that I'm going to play for England to him, which is

12:11

quite interesting. Obviously, back

12:13

then I didn't think much of it. I was like, oh

12:16

yeah, whatever kind of thing.

12:18

But, but

12:20

no. And

12:22

then, and then you just get, get on the path of trying

12:24

to improve as a player. I

12:27

always love playing sports. I played all

12:29

kinds of sports, football and tennis, my main sports

12:31

before rugby. And then,

12:34

yeah, I played everything I could love playing

12:36

rugby. So you didn't ever have to try

12:38

and force me to get out there and play and practice. And

12:41

when you do that, you get better. Which

12:43

is when, which is why I like when people ask me

12:45

what, what should I be doing? Let's just enjoy

12:47

your rugby. What position were you at football?

12:49

Just out of interest? I was like midfielder

12:53

or center back. Yeah. All right. None shall

12:55

pass. Time for them to pass. Indeed. Yeah.

12:58

And, and so you sort of, you began your journey

13:00

in terms of getting into North Hampton and was

13:02

that, that was, there was only ever one club for you because

13:04

of where you grew up, I presume. Would you look around

13:06

a little bit? Yeah, I guess so. I got, I got scouted

13:09

when I was about 16 to play

13:11

for Saints and I played, yeah, all through the junior Academy

13:13

and then into the senior Academy. So, so

13:16

remind me who, who would have

13:18

been there as senior players when you came in? It

13:20

was Fullback. Was it in college? We

13:22

had Carlos Spencer. Yeah. Wow. And

13:25

when you walked into that environment as a 18,

13:28

19 year old, did you just to the man I born,

13:30

this is what this is a word of the bill. Or did you find that

13:32

sort of, cause you were playing with some

13:34

pretty big high profile players running me off.

13:36

Yeah. Yeah. But again, I didn't,

13:39

I wasn't even into rugby.

13:41

Like I still don't watch loads of sports. The only

13:44

sports I really watch now is like the UFC.

13:47

Um, so even when I was going into change

13:49

rooms, you got all these big dogs and obviously you know who the,

13:52

who the best players are and who the players that have been

13:54

around a long time and the coaches kind of

13:56

tell you,

13:57

you know, what the crack is. Um,

13:59

I still.

13:59

because I didn't, I'm not like

14:02

one of these people that has like idols

14:04

that you look, look up to massively. So, yeah,

14:07

I just, just went into work, got

14:10

my head down and for whatever reason

14:12

going into,

14:13

you know, that kind of environment. I never, I never

14:15

felt too under pressure. I always just did

14:17

my own thing. Always wanted to be my own man, my

14:19

own person. I remember again, a

14:21

lot of shit for wearing my hoodies

14:23

under my shirts and stuff, because

14:25

I didn't want to get cold. Big Woolie

14:28

stuff. And now

14:30

I'm like,

14:31

if a kid did that, I'd be ripping

14:33

into pieces and I was getting ripped, but I

14:35

didn't care for whatever reason. I'd start to know. I'd just

14:38

gone with it. I think that sums you up. I remember

14:41

you would never be hurried, never be rushed, everything

14:43

on your own agenda. People would tell you, but you'd obviously

14:46

you develop your game, but as a person, you

14:48

just be very chill. Like I thought we were joking that when we'd done the tour,

14:50

but the lineup, what's the call

14:53

on me, brother, the back just walking. Just like walking

14:55

super casual. They lift him from one hand, but

14:57

off the top, no one gets anywhere near him. It's just

15:00

not every time. What do you remember of it? Young

15:02

Courtney coming into the camp. Very

15:04

relaxed, very chilled, quite quiet,

15:08

very good athlete, very, very physical, would

15:11

be very,

15:12

just go with the flow. He says very good flow, but then

15:16

somebody like bump him

15:18

by mistake or someone run through touch. You'd

15:20

see him, you'd just go, okay. And

15:22

then they'd be fucking leveled and

15:25

it would kick off and then very rarely

15:28

gets annoyed. But I think

15:30

when other people around him aren't putting the same effort in, I remember

15:33

trading sessions, he would be quiet and come in

15:35

and then be like, right, fuck sake lads. I've done this,

15:37

do this, do this, do this. And then it's like a follow me mentality.

15:40

I think that's kind of fair, isn't it? I think you wouldn't, you'd be

15:43

calm, but then every now and then you would be like, right. Yeah,

15:46

I've got, I've

15:47

actually got quite a short fuse for certain

15:49

things. So yeah,

15:52

I can go from being very

15:54

chilled to fucking let's go

15:56

quite quickly. There's no in between.

15:59

Yeah, no. Yeah, we use someone

16:02

because you know a lot of players

16:04

will say that they You know they live

16:06

to play for their country We use someone who was

16:09

very excited and emotional about that was it just the next

16:11

step.

16:12

This is what was born to do Uh, yeah a

16:14

bit both. Um, I do I do

16:16

feel incredible honor to to

16:18

serve my country and play for my country

16:21

But the same time it yeah, it was that next

16:23

step and I was just really excited to

16:25

gather and play I was playing really well for Saints

16:28

at the time So I had a lot of confidence

16:30

didn't really feel too nervous and not going into the game

16:32

and yeah I just wanted to get off the bench and do

16:34

you think that the week off what? Your

16:37

coach said here would

16:39

you think about that at that point or just

16:41

you forget and you feel about it Yeah, it was it was

16:43

yeah It's just kind of as you as you

16:45

get a bit older and you mature and you realize Jesus

16:49

he must have had pretty

16:51

good foresight for a start to To

16:54

things or he just did it with everyone We're

17:02

in England player or being in the player I

17:04

told me we're in England But

17:07

no like he he's a

17:09

bit of a legend around here anyway, as I said

17:13

He he works so hard

17:15

for so many people Any

17:18

and he really really impacted a lot of people's lives

17:21

You most rug players

17:23

from my age to you know, 25 ish Will

17:26

know who he is because he did so much for

17:28

the rugby community in Northampton.

17:31

What a great story as well I'm sure he'd be incredibly

17:33

proud So Martin Johnson Stewart

17:35

Lancaster Eddie Jones and Steve Borthwick

17:38

were all your England coaches. Which one of those

17:40

got the best Eddie

17:42

Eddie without doubt without

17:44

a shadow without because I was I kind

17:47

of Came on to the scene at 20

17:49

and as I said, I was really confident I think

17:52

was like 21 when I got autumn

17:55

series

17:56

pair of series So I

17:58

was really really confident playing a lot

17:59

really good rugby at the time and then went

18:02

for a period of a lot of injuries and

18:06

then from 23 to 24 was not 25

18:09

wasn't playing my best rugby to certainly I'd

18:11

have good games don't get me wrong and I'd have bad games

18:14

but I just wasn't wasn't consistent at all basically

18:17

stopped ball carrying I was relying on

18:19

defense big hits

18:22

and and whatnot to make an impact

18:24

in the game but abandoned my

18:27

ball carrying your wing your ability

18:29

yeah yeah pretty much and it wasn't till Eddie

18:31

came back in and was like look we need it we

18:33

need you to ball carry otherwise you're not on the team

18:36

you need to be good in defense you need to be good at line up

18:38

but we also need you to get

18:41

to get your ball carrying

18:42

going again. That's why you focused a lot of your footwork I

18:44

remember we made a

18:46

poster that's kind of what I saw because you carried that into

18:48

kind of Eddie came in late 2015 you

18:51

know 2016 yeah

18:53

and that those that one-on-ones I remember seeing

18:55

you doing it on the line so we stood together yeah

18:57

I mean your footwork got better mind to spree average

19:00

but you know it was interesting how you completely

19:02

developed that game to the point where you became such an attacking

19:04

threat

19:05

yeah definitely and it was something that

19:07

was actually good out when I was a bit younger and I

19:09

just for whatever reason lost a lot of confidence in

19:11

it

19:12

and then yeah I just had

19:14

to develop that that skill again and

19:17

yeah trained it like I said we trained a lot

19:20

you know we did a lot of extras and stuff like that and and

19:22

yeah I was was able to tell my game

19:24

Eddie loved you as well didn't he you just used to call Big

19:27

C wouldn't it just yeah yeah yeah I was fortunate

19:29

he was one of the ones I was

19:31

one of the ones that you know I got really

19:33

well then it's not the same for everyone

19:36

obviously but but now I enjoyed

19:38

my time with him. Why do you think you got the best

19:40

out of you so much? Obviously you said he

19:43

told you to ball carry but what what was it a little conversation

19:45

you had with him because I think you you're

19:47

always a leader but I think he really became

19:50

a real heartbeat at the side then.

19:51

Yeah I think he just he just

19:54

kept pushing me to get better get

19:56

better and better and and

19:58

and then I began to just

21:35

And

22:01

although at the time

22:03

I think it was Faz

22:05

Skipper, Genji, me

22:08

and I think Nolzi were

22:10

vice captains. So

22:12

I did have a good idea that if Faz didn't play,

22:15

I would probably be Skipper, but you

22:17

never expect somebody not to

22:19

play kind of thing. So yeah, Faz

22:22

was out, got the opportunity

22:24

and yeah, I was

22:26

surprised, a little bit taken about, but yeah,

22:29

super excited. Do you love a team talk? If

22:31

there's something to be said,

22:34

then I think you should, somebody should

22:36

say, but I don't like

22:38

to

22:39

talk for the sake of it, certainly. Who

22:42

are the people that, because

22:45

you always have, you always feel the

22:47

void, don't you? But if you have people

22:49

around who it's natural to just chat to,

22:51

or naturally to do the emotive

22:54

side of it, you let them get older,

22:56

who are the best for you when

22:58

you were skipping that point of view? Genji

23:01

was, you know, Bob, we got on

23:04

really well anyway.

23:06

We got actually

23:08

so much in common, it's a bit of a joke, we

23:10

roomed together the whole campaign this World

23:12

Cup. So

23:13

that was a class, that was really good.

23:15

And he's somebody that is

23:18

quite a lot like me and the fact that he doesn't speak all the

23:20

time, but he does lead by

23:22

example, very much. He's obviously

23:24

a hell of a player. And he's got a

23:26

good understanding of

23:29

where the team's at. Emotional intelligence. Yeah,

23:32

exactly. And because everyone

23:36

respects him, and everyone

23:38

likes him, you

23:41

know, he's got a lot in common with everyone. He

23:45

can bring the best out of people. And

23:47

also people want to follow him. And then

23:49

we had Nolsey in the

23:51

back. the

24:00

team where you move forward. Do you see someone like Ellis

24:02

captain England? Would you, would you get your vote if Owen

24:04

wasn't available or they want to see a different direction? Yeah,

24:06

definitely. Definitely. And I think that,

24:09

um, he'd be really, and he's already shown

24:11

it like when, with the Lester.

24:13

Premwyn, um, that, that

24:17

I think in terms of, um,

24:20

balance, you have to have, you can have

24:23

two similar people being head

24:25

coach and skipper, um,

24:28

I think you need a bit of a, bit of a blend because

24:30

it can just get too extreme,

24:32

um, in terms of intensity

24:35

or, or, you know,

24:37

whatever, whatever kind

24:39

of drive, if they're too similar, that

24:41

is, and it's the same way if, if

24:43

like, I managed it before. If I was skipper

24:46

at saints when Chris Boyd was there,

24:48

nothing would have got done. So at

24:51

the same, at the same time, you can't

24:53

have that. You, you kind of need, you

24:55

kind of need that balance. So you can have an Eddie and a

24:58

you, or you can have a you, um,

25:00

and try to think, or you can have a Steve

25:02

and so, but you need an action. Yeah. I think, yeah,

25:05

I think you need a good voice wise as well. Yeah,

25:07

exactly. Exactly. Um, so

25:09

yeah, I think, I think, and she's in,

25:11

in the decent, decent shot skipping at some point.

25:14

Can I ask you about the lions? Because for

25:16

everything that you've achieved for England, what did the

25:18

lions mean to you and the achievements that you had

25:20

there?

25:21

Um, yeah, that was that.

25:24

The, the lions was a huge achievement

25:26

for me to be honest, because it was, as I say, it was

25:28

at the point where, um, I'd

25:31

really started to push myself. Uh, no,

25:33

no, no. And I wanted to, uh, get

25:35

the most of myself and obviously if you can't get an

25:37

alliance, then, um, you

25:40

know, you're not well, it's cause you're not

25:43

good enough player, basically. Um, at the, at the

25:45

time there's a lot of luck that goes into it. Don't get me wrong. Um,

25:48

but, but being called into a line squad,

25:50

which is the best of the best on, on,

25:53

um, in Great

25:55

Britain, uh, well, Britain

25:57

and Ireland obviously, um,

25:59

It's

26:00

such a compliment, it's so

26:03

humbling. I'm playing

26:05

with the quality of play you play there. You

26:07

know, it's just, yeah,

26:09

you don't often get a chance to do that. 2021 was

26:12

a very, very odd tour because of Covid,

26:14

etc. I imagine it was quite a weird experience. But 2017,

26:18

who were the guys from other countries that impressed

26:21

you, challenged you, you learnt from, etc.?

26:24

Did you form, because you came out of that lines

26:26

tour and you've spoken very openly about real

26:28

deep friendships with Rory Best, etc., etc.? Did

26:31

you have similar sort of friendships that developed out there? Yeah,

26:34

definitely. Definitely. I

26:36

actually, pressure in my

26:38

mind is

26:40

the most recent tour South Africa where Hamish

26:43

and Southers

26:46

were like my best mates out there. I've

26:48

really got them all with them. Hamish is on tour

26:50

with us here. Very great man.

26:53

Hamish is absolutely class and Rory's

26:56

similar and we

26:58

had similar

27:00

families and stuff at the time and whatnot. I

27:04

really got them all with them, don't you specifically?

27:06

In those days, obviously, you talked about Eddie

27:09

coming in and kicking out the backside and pushing yourself. Do

27:11

you have any, you've achieved amazing

27:14

stuff, but you're obviously a competitor guy. Do you have any regrets?

27:16

Is there anything you would issue done soon? Do you reckon you'd pushed

27:18

yourself further? Yeah, no, no, of course. I

27:21

think I'll always have regrets and especially

27:24

considering I hadn't been pushing myself up

27:26

until Eddie got there for a few

27:28

years, that's obviously going to be a big regret for

27:30

me and something that I'll never

27:32

get back.

27:34

I'm

27:36

my client now, don't get upset. But

27:41

no, I think I've done relatively

27:44

well considering how much of my career I've

27:46

spent injured as well. That's

27:49

definitely, if you're going to talk weaknesses,

27:52

being able to stay on the road pitch is certainly

27:54

my biggest weakness. Yeah, I'm not sure that's

27:56

a weakness, I think, as a complement

27:59

to the way you play, though. If you're going

28:01

to smash people, be able

28:03

to fall carry, have footwork and

28:05

do everything and be as sort

28:07

of the dexterity in the line,

28:10

your body's going to give it some points. You've still got

28:12

over a hundred, that's the weird thing about it, you think how much

28:14

you were injured at times and like

28:16

surgery and ankle bits, a piece of knee and

28:18

stuff and concussion, whatever it was, you saw

28:21

over 105 caps, what ever it is, 105 was 105? Yeah, 105,

28:23

yeah. Not including lions, what? So

28:26

that's how much people

28:28

and head coaches and international coaches rely

28:31

on you, so it wasn't necessarily all about club form

28:33

and that's the sign of a man when

28:35

they trust you even when you haven't got loads of game

28:37

time in there. No, certainly. No, certainly. But...

28:41

Do you like taking compliments? No. I

28:44

was about to say, you're like, please

28:46

shut up. We were talking about what I regret, I

28:48

regret not being able to play as much rugby as

28:50

I could have. So you had to flip side of

28:52

that in regards to moments that you would sit

28:54

back now, if you were going to sit around, if you're still

28:56

in it, still playing, there's obviously more to give, you're going

28:59

to retire to America, maybe Japan. Whichever's got

29:01

the most cash, into the sunset. What

29:03

are the days you look back on it and smile? Because

29:05

I have moments that I reflect on, but

29:07

it is a bit of a blur. What about you?

29:10

The three starts in South

29:13

Africa were a

29:14

big one for me. Now, first, Tess,

29:16

that must be one of the best games you ever played, wasn't it? Yeah,

29:19

definitely. I mean,

29:22

I enjoyed, in terms of rugby

29:24

wise, obviously, off the field stuff was non-existent

29:26

because it was COVID or whatever, but on

29:29

the field, that was probably the best rugby

29:31

I've played

29:33

the whole time, my whole career.

29:37

And being able

29:39

to... Because obviously, the New Zealand tour

29:41

was great, and I got myself in the team, and I was on

29:43

the bench, and that's all well and good, but I always,

29:46

I want to be a star. I

29:50

had the season I had, that season

29:52

where I literally had three

29:56

games of rugby before the

29:58

Lions team was...

29:59

announced that entire

30:02

season. Yes, I was

30:04

extremely surprised. I thought

30:06

I had no chance because I played no

30:08

rugby. Um, and, um,

30:11

and then to get on that tour, to

30:13

come back in form,

30:16

um, play how I played and

30:18

then get my nail down

30:20

my Mustang line shirt was,

30:22

um, yeah, so my It must be nice.

30:25

As you talked about the lines has been the best of the best, the best

30:28

and then to play and be the best on

30:30

that day. That must be like a magical moment. And

30:32

that's, that's what drives me. You know, that

30:34

competitive nature of mine,

30:37

just, um, uh, and that's why

30:39

that will forever be a tour that

30:41

our church. When you play a game like that, like played

30:43

in that first test, how did you,

30:45

obviously, you know, the things have gone well, but there'll

30:47

always be, there will always be mistakes and bits and pieces.

30:50

How did you know that that was a special moment?

30:52

Right? When your phone blew up, when you got back and people

30:54

just calling you up. Cause I knew I played well

30:57

in 2016 against Australia cause everyone was nice to me. Everyone

31:00

was nice. That's what you get. Yeah.

31:03

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sky, those sky was nice to me. People

31:05

actually wanted to interview me. My phone, everyone

31:07

was telling me really nice things. He said, like, throw yourself a bridge.

31:09

I was like, wow, maybe I did something in my, my,

31:12

my, my wife wrote to me going, you know, you've,

31:14

do you understand what you've just done? And I was like, no,

31:17

but I wondered, do you have that moment or do you pretty comfortable

31:19

or you just, again, you don't really get too happy,

31:21

too sad. Um,

31:23

no, no. I was, I was over the moon

31:26

to have, uh, kind of vindicated

31:28

my, um, you know, my

31:30

place on the tour, um,

31:31

my place in the starting team. Um,

31:34

that was my overriding

31:35

feeling was, um, you

31:38

know, I proved that he made the

31:40

gala made the right choice. Did you hear from people you

31:42

never didn't even know you knew? I

31:45

mean, I mean, like, yeah, I suppose

31:47

then and recently, like with the hundred, cause

31:49

I recently had a hundred caps and

31:51

then my last, you know, and the

31:54

world cup and stuff. So I've

31:56

had a lot of, a lot of really nice messages from a lot of

31:58

people who, you know. some, you

32:01

hear from a last and some, and some that

32:03

you've not heard from in a, in a good world, but, uh, you

32:05

know, so I always make sure that I,

32:07

I'll reply to everyone,

32:09

um, because if you're going to,

32:11

you know, take the time to message me, I'll certainly tend

32:13

to take the time to message you back. Couple of quick

32:15

fire questions. If you could play one game

32:17

again, what

32:18

would it be and why?

32:20

Either because it's an itch you want to scratch or because it was

32:22

the day you thought, do

32:23

you know what rugby? Obviously the World Cup final.

32:25

Yeah. That

32:26

is,

32:27

does that still, does that still work? I knew it was going

32:29

to be an itch. Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing.

32:32

Top flight players who it's always the

32:34

itch they go to rather than the day they conquered the game.

32:37

Right. Does that still burn?

32:39

Yeah. No, I mean, yes,

32:41

I know. Like at the end of the day, again, we

32:44

play rugby and you know, we recently lost

32:46

to the sappers and you know, I was actually

32:48

surprised cause my little ones were upset after

32:50

the game.

32:52

More upset than me. Um, um,

32:55

so I was like,

32:57

well, it's actually nice. They understand. They

32:59

don't just think you play down here every weekend

33:02

anymore. It's got, um,

33:04

but at the same time, um,

33:06

Sportman,

33:09

like, what'd you do when they come off

33:12

and they're, they are upset because I, obviously with

33:14

my daughter, she's never going to know me as

33:16

a player. She never really know what I did.

33:18

I mean, I don't want to be doing what time she's old enough.

33:21

I'll be in prison, might be dead, but can we DJ around

33:23

the world? Who knows? But I wonder what it's like when you, when

33:25

you get that recognition, they know what daddy is and what daddy's

33:27

done and they get sad.

33:29

Um,

33:30

yeah, I mean, like I said, it's kind of,

33:33

yeah, it's, it is

33:35

nice. It's really, it's really nice to be able to take

33:37

them on,

33:38

on your journey with you. Um,

33:40

and, and obviously this is a tail end of my journey now,

33:43

but even the twins, the twins now are my

33:45

youngest and they're nearly six, um,

33:47

nails 10 and Teddy's eight. So, you

33:50

know, they've been able to witness a good portion of

33:52

my career.

33:53

Um, and I just hope that, and that inspires

33:55

them to, to whatever

33:56

they're going to go on

33:59

and do.

33:59

to do it to the best of their ability. Um,

34:02

yeah, that's all I heard. Have they ever come up with anything

34:04

mad? Like when they've like, you know, I don't know.

34:08

They're not understanding quite what's going on and what they think

34:10

any moments. Like, cause I made kids say the weird

34:12

like maddest things. They wonder whether like, honestly, yeah. Have

34:16

you had any of that? If you don't

34:18

remember, no, no, I don't, they don't, they

34:20

don't, they haven't said anything crazy that

34:23

I can remember anything. Did you kill that Frenchman?

34:27

That is his honor. I mean, so the police

34:29

don't tackle or the Teresa Viano tackle

34:32

pick one. No, try to say it was probably

34:34

better for me. Yeah. Yeah. Did

34:36

you remember at the moment at the time picking

34:38

more effort? Um, I

34:41

mean, yeah,

34:43

I know. No, I remember that vividly

34:46

because obviously we're attacking

34:48

and then they, they get an intercept

34:51

and I was on the other side of the breakdown.

34:53

Um,

34:55

and I just

34:56

thought run, to be honest. The speed

34:58

of a winger. I was like, just go. And

35:00

then you, you never know what can happen. Um,

35:03

and often you'll see me track back and

35:06

a lot of times you don't make it. Cause, um,

35:08

but you know, Fred

35:09

brought me enough time to get him, um,

35:12

but by getting skinned, obviously, but um,

35:17

and then, yeah, I just, I just, uh, was in the

35:19

right place at the right time. Best roomy in the

35:21

game. Um, I enjoyed

35:24

hash shout out big, big,

35:26

big half there. Um, that was good for you.

35:28

It was going on. And it, um, my, my favorite

35:30

room has been Genji definitely. Uh, and we, and

35:33

we've roomed together the past few six

35:35

nations or, or whatever. But, um,

35:38

like I said, he's definitely, um,

35:41

really close friend of mine. Yeah. Um, one

35:43

of my closest and rugby for sure. So, um,

35:46

to, to spend this tournament. So

35:48

I'll start with him. Um, it's

35:50

been, you know, we,

35:52

we give each well, I give him a lot of,

35:54

quite a lot of shit actually. Oh, really? A bar,

35:57

all sorts.

35:59

He did. Don't know if I can say it.

36:02

Anyway. We can edit it out. I'm

36:04

pretty sure. But we all know. I

36:06

want you to ask him about this actually. Because

36:09

he... You

36:11

can tell by his body language what

36:13

he actually thinks.

36:15

But what he says is a bit different. Oh really?

36:18

But if you ask him if he could take

36:20

on a lion

36:23

bare handed.

36:24

Even if you go, look, do you reckon you

36:27

could take on a female lion? Yeah.

36:29

A bit smaller than a male lion. He'll concede

36:31

that he can't take on a male lion. But a female

36:34

he's like... It's like... Don't know.

36:36

So what he's saying is basically he obviously... In front

36:39

of you he'll go, no I definitely can't.

36:41

But his body language is like, fuck yeah I can. I

36:44

guarantee he thinks he can take on a lion. I

36:46

swear to God. There's only one way to find out. No. You

36:50

know what? It's only if we go through logical parks. Check

36:52

him in. Yeah but if only we got him in... Where was the skid line

36:54

the other day? Italy. Italy. If

36:56

we could have flown... Ask him what his League

36:59

of Legends rank is at the minute as well. League

37:01

of Legends? Yeah. What's that?

37:04

Game. Sorry, Bryce. Sorry,

37:06

he's old now. Yeah, he's a big gamer. He plays League

37:08

of Legends, yeah. Right. And he's sliding

37:10

down the rankings. He's sliding, yeah. So make sure you

37:12

ask him. Because you used to be a big gamer

37:14

but there's a great story when you used to be part of a

37:17

game and crude in you and then your misses went

37:19

completely mad because you got a Christmas

37:22

card to someone you'd never met prior to your gaming

37:24

team to your house and you used to go mentally like handing

37:26

out your dress. Yeah,

37:29

I've definitely been stung by someone like that before

37:31

but yeah, I mean, I... Yeah,

37:34

I've gained for a long time. I don't really gain much

37:36

anymore. No, I don't have much

37:38

time for it or whatever. And

37:41

especially when your kids are younger,

37:43

so you know when... So

37:46

you'll know at the minute. You put your kid down at say

37:48

seven

37:49

and there's a good chance you're

37:51

going to be going upstairs again before you go

37:53

to bed at ten or whenever. So

37:56

that caused

37:58

a lot of friction.

37:59

I'm playing the game like say League of Legends. So

38:02

I don't know how he or Tay or anyone

38:04

like that gets away with it. When you're playing League of Legends

38:06

at seven o'clock, all the kids gone to bed and

38:08

you're in a game and there's absolutely no

38:11

way you can leave this game. And the

38:13

missus like the kids are crying. Can

38:15

you go and saw the man? You're like,

38:16

uh, no. Do you know what I mean? Sorry,

38:19

I'm gaming. Yeah. A

38:23

lot of friction. So I, I, to,

38:25

to, to let it go. Yeah. Probably good. Probably

38:27

good idea. I just wanted to pay

38:29

me a scenario. So you're, so Alice

38:32

is in one bed. You're in the other bed. You're chatting.

38:34

We just roll over and go, right. Do you reckon you could swim

38:36

faster than the shark? And so how does it

38:38

like, how does that work? I'm trying to think why I gave

38:40

him a shit. Would you give me, is he messy? Is he untidy?

38:43

Are you obviously the king of the room? Like, does

38:46

he try and get in on the club? So is that so we'll go? Yeah,

38:48

no, no, no. We, yeah, we, um,

38:50

we'll very much get on the same orders delivery or,

38:53

um, because literally change the game.

38:55

Do you remember back in the day? The only outlet

38:57

we had was room service. You were every 30

38:59

minutes on the hour. Yeah. Cheese omelette.

39:02

How many sandwiches? Did

39:05

I, why not? Cause you'd be alternated. It would start with the club

39:07

sandwich followed by cheese omelette chaser

39:09

and then a bowl of crunching up corn flakes. Right. But

39:12

obviously deliver who has changed the game. How

39:14

did I mean, did that keep it off? Ready? The coaches

39:16

try and police it. No, not at

39:18

all. Really? I mean, there's certain players

39:21

that I'm sure they'll, they'll have a bit

39:23

more of an iron, but like me and Genji, because

39:26

we're players, the relatively

39:29

lean anyway. Um, and

39:31

they want us to be heavier rather than lighter.

39:33

They don't, they don't give a crap. What's your go-to?

39:36

Who's Ramon? They monitoring. Uh,

39:38

definitely we'll shoot. Oh

39:40

yeah. A hundred percent. He looks like big hero six

39:43

him and bever in the same room. So they're definitely,

39:45

I don't know. I'm gonna good. But

39:49

so do you boys, what would you be your go-to order? What should I,

39:51

what would be your, um, I

39:53

think our favorite, our favorite

39:55

would probably be a five guys. Lovely.

39:58

Um, from five guys. I've got races. I've

40:01

got relatively specific, I know I'm very

40:03

often go a

40:04

cheeseburger but with an

40:07

extra patty and

40:09

I have mayo, hot sauce and

40:11

gherkins. So I go bacon

40:14

cheeseburger, jalapenos, fresh

40:16

onions, hot sauce, hot dog

40:18

jalapenos, onions and hot sauce and then an Oreo

40:21

milkshake. If everyone could send in their orders,

40:23

I would say you join us as we celebrate the

40:25

career of one of England's finest ever international

40:27

rugby players. But it's good to know that we've got

40:29

five guys. There's a little deal for your

40:31

place. Built off five guys from the friend James Haskell who likes

40:34

all the five guys. Most respected

40:36

opponent. Has anyone got

40:38

a beeping around enough that you've had a few but is there one

40:40

where you've... Definitely got a few. Look,

40:44

I think,

40:45

I've not played him loads but Ali

40:47

Sabe is definitely where

40:49

he got world player of the year this year, didn't he? And

40:52

he's a player that you kind of look at and go, wow,

40:54

yeah, he's been so consistent for

40:56

such a long period of time.

40:58

One of the best players in the world, if not the best player in the

41:00

world for a good number of years now. So I really

41:03

respect him. He's so destructive and he just, he like roars.

41:05

Like I love him. I think every day on the

41:07

field, off the field, top man, credible

41:10

player. But you hear him, yeah. Brilliant

41:13

content. Yeah. He's

41:16

like, fuck it, he's good and he's

41:18

mental.

41:20

Do you keep any of the

41:22

bits along the way? Have you kept shirts and

41:24

caps? Yeah, yeah. Have you got one

41:26

that you've saved? We're all in the auction now, are they? Are they? I

41:29

never did testimonial. When I moved out

41:31

to the 15 clubs, when my parents moved out, they

41:34

took out 60 kit bags,

41:37

or it was a kit bag mounted, tons, I gave

41:39

all the kit, a lot of kit to Matt Hampson, I gave everything away.

41:41

I've kept one shirt from everything and

41:43

that's the rest of it. And I never did, the whole point was to keep

41:46

it all for that. Yeah, yeah. Never bought

41:48

the testimonial. Yeah,

41:50

I mean, it's my testimonial

41:52

year this year and we're doing a

41:54

London dinner on the 5th of December. Yeah.

41:57

And then we're doing the North

41:59

done in April and

42:02

then we're doing like a fans one which is not like

42:04

a big

42:05

obviously the big dinners are to raise

42:07

some money for our charities

42:10

and then the

42:12

other ones just kind of fans event and then we might be doing something

42:15

we might be doing like

42:17

a 2020 cricket or something like that but yeah.

42:19

Can you turn your arm over? Do you bat

42:22

middle order? I'm not great if

42:24

cricket is probably my worst sport right if

42:27

I'm quite honest I'm really good at racket sport

42:29

so when we were in France I

42:31

got quite good at paddle okay I was already

42:33

pretty good at table tennis yeah a table tennis table

42:36

with us pretty much the whole time around and actually played

42:38

some tennis

42:40

for the first time in a few years with Dave ribbons

42:42

who's a good tennis player

42:44

so we had a pretty good good little

42:46

hit out and it was it's pretty tough actually for

42:48

us to play for about two hours two hours

42:51

a couple of days in a row but I

42:53

played a lot of paddle yeah but cricket is definitely

42:56

my worst sport because I didn't really play it growing up

42:58

yeah so I can bowl I'm alright

43:01

bowling and obviously I can field because I can catch but

43:03

I'm

43:04

pretty terrible at batting. And people

43:06

go where? Cornylaws.com for tickets

43:08

and to help? We've got an Instagram

43:10

it's called holding court it's

43:13

gonna be a yeah yeah yeah see that

43:15

but no it's gonna be yeah it should be a couple of good events.

43:17

Are there any tickets still left? There

43:19

is the Rushton one although the London ones all

43:22

sold out now. Sorry about that. It's like

43:24

a double day. So the Rushton one they will just

43:27

go to holding court and they can get tickets. And

43:33

all the memorabilia is

43:34

in the auction? Have you kept a couple of bits

43:36

for the for the bar in years to come? No no look

43:38

up there's there's nothing that I'm

43:40

auctioning off that I'm the site

43:43

one of a kind or I'm not

43:46

I don't treasure dearly kind of thing I'm not selling

43:48

off all my everything I've made

43:50

kind of thing but we've got we've got some really good prize

43:52

in there in terms of my shirts

43:56

experiences with certain lads and

44:00

Yeah boots and stuff and I've got

44:02

some hundred cap adidas boots that going into

44:04

the auction there Custom

44:06

made one all kinds. So that'd be amazing stuff like that.

44:08

Just uh, but no it's um, it's really exciting

44:11

You can auction me off for a date with a bird if you want.

44:13

Yeah, I might do. Yeah, I've got a date with five

44:21

So

44:22

Where you sit now? What's

44:25

next? I mean obviously you've got another year

44:27

maybe a trip to japan depending on the coin Do

44:30

you want to stay involved in the game? Would you have a coach? Do

44:32

you want to be going to media? Do you want

44:34

to donate something or you're happy with your lot and

44:36

it's time to do something else? No, no, i've had a i've

44:38

had a good think about it. I've got i've got a couple

44:41

of bits going on in the background Um

44:43

got property we've got other ventures going

44:45

on which is great And obviously my missus is doing really well with

44:47

her business, which is the mum club For

44:50

any mums out there probably not to watch this but anyway

44:52

surprised it beats right really? Yeah, more than what you did

44:55

recently mainly to leave abuse It'd

44:57

be here right?

45:00

Are you still doing the

45:01

the social think tank? Is that

45:03

something you're involved in? Yeah. Yeah. What was that involved?

45:06

A lot of it is actually getting young

45:08

people in You know

45:10

from disadvantaged backgrounds into things

45:13

like sports. That's actually one of the big big

45:15

pushes at the minute And it's also

45:17

something i'm really interested in in getting rugby pushed

45:19

into a lot more state schools

45:21

Um one because it's good. I

45:23

think it's the the kind of foundation

45:25

of the sport and the You know the hard

45:27

work and the respect and that kind of stuff

45:29

that rugby is built on

45:31

Will be really good for um a

45:34

lot a lot of young people, um

45:36

from certain parts of the country Um

45:38

and and and also it'd be great for

45:40

rugby to get a much more

45:43

wide variety

45:44

And better crop just rely on clubs

45:47

all the time. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And and

45:49

you know the more the more Kids

45:51

you can get playing this playing this game the more

45:54

competition you've got the better

45:56

that

45:57

You know the the people that come out the other side of it. Yeah

46:00

It's interesting as well because we've talked

46:02

about a lot on the tour. Obviously rugby is

46:04

one of the only sports that takes all shapes and sizes as

46:06

well. So there is that level of inclusivity

46:08

in terms of, well, I don't, you know, football

46:10

or other sports, you might have a body shape to do it.

46:13

All mentalities as well. Sometimes

46:15

kids are just headbangers aren't

46:17

they at the start and they sometimes

46:20

can get misled by certain

46:22

things where there will be sort of focuses

46:24

there. Any of your kids sharing any signs of kicking

46:26

on to maybe be the next little C? I

46:29

would be surprised if

46:32

all of them are pretty good at rugby. All the boys.

46:36

But they all prefer football, which is great. More

46:39

money in that. Yeah, more money in that. Look.

46:42

But. Are they cobblers fans or have they managed to?

46:44

No, they are Man City. I knew you were going

46:46

to say that. Yeah, they are Man City. I

46:49

think Teddy's Man City. I think Otto's

46:52

like Man United. Wow. Bad

46:54

times. Yeah, bad times. It's

46:57

not because they watch the game or anything. They just

46:59

like certain players that play for them or whatever.

47:02

But yeah, all three of the boys love playing football,

47:04

which is great. We go and play football all the time. And

47:08

look, if you're getting better at one sport, you're

47:10

getting better at other sports at the same time when you're that kind of

47:12

age. You know what I mean? So that's the madness of football

47:14

that we need to get to rugby. Yeah, they're not

47:17

really fans of the club. They're fans of the

47:19

people. Yeah. So that's something that doesn't

47:21

happen in rugby. This is a total gear

47:23

change. And I sort of apologize for dropping it in. But

47:26

I would say that I think you're Neil Sderko. A

47:28

little bit. But I think your opinions

47:31

on the game, I think a lot

47:33

of people want to hear moving forwards. I

47:35

think you are one of the current players who is not afraid to

47:37

say exactly what they think. So

47:40

two quick questions. The Tom Curry incident from that semi-final,

47:42

have you got a view on that? Did you talk to Tom

47:44

about it? I noticed that he came out and sort of said

47:46

something. But in doing so, he said, I know what I heard.

47:49

I heard what I heard. I'm not changing my view. But

47:51

that's the end of it. So that happened in the audience. Did

47:54

you speak to him about that at all? Have you got a view on it? Yeah,

47:56

I did speak to him about it.

47:58

Because he obviously...

48:02

Not because he's

48:04

a really good bloke,

48:07

but he's also, he

48:10

can struggle with stuff like that sometimes.

48:13

And I spoke to him the day after and I just said, look,

48:16

you know what happened? And it's not like

48:19

you've gone to anyone and been like, I want

48:21

to,

48:21

you know, do this and that. You've

48:24

said to the ref, he's calling this and

48:26

that's that. And essentially that's

48:28

all you've got to do. You haven't got to

48:31

say that you've got an opinion about what's happened.

48:33

You haven't got to say that you feel offended or you feel this

48:35

way or that way. You just say what's happened, state

48:38

your case and then leave it to whoever

48:40

wants to take it up. Because,

48:43

and then you don't have to worry about it. He

48:45

had it again that week as well. They were playing

48:47

Argentina. So I was like, mate, just

48:49

park it. You ain't got to say a thing other

48:52

than

48:53

what has happened to you.

48:55

Right? But yeah, like.

48:58

Do you feel it's been let down?

49:00

Yeah, I do. I do. Because people know.

49:04

Like he will know

49:06

it

49:07

said to him. Do you know what I mean? We're

49:09

not stupid. If someone's running around saying

49:12

which can't or whatever, whatever they're saying has

49:14

been said,

49:17

that's completely different to someone looks in your eyes

49:19

and tells you something. Yeah. Do you

49:22

know what I mean? And the fact that it's happened before, we've

49:24

had incidents with him and other lads in the team

49:26

and stuff like that. So

49:28

I don't know what's happened. I

49:31

wasn't there at the time. Didn't see it. Didn't

49:33

even know what was going on until a

49:36

day later when it all came out or whatever. But

49:39

look, I wouldn't

49:42

be surprised at all if that was the case. Not

49:44

saying it is. Not saying it isn't. But

49:46

I wouldn't be surprised at all. And

49:50

regardless, coach

49:52

should be has a right to say what has

49:55

happened. Yeah. So

49:57

there's going to be another incident. Is that a worry? Are

50:00

you seeing more of it, less of it? Or is it just one-offs

50:02

flare up and they're done? Just

50:04

one-offs. The battle. The last question I sort

50:06

of in summing up really wanted to ask you is about

50:09

the, it's quite a big one, but about the state of the game

50:11

right now. And we've had three premiership clubs that got out

50:13

of business. There are all sorts of challenges. As

50:16

someone who is at the very tip of the spear in

50:18

terms of top level rugby, do you

50:20

look at the sport and think, Christ, alive, there's a

50:22

lot to get done here. Do you actually feel within the

50:25

professional game that actually the product is as good

50:27

as it has been? Where are you at at

50:30

the moment looking at the sport

50:32

at which you are one of the most high profile players?

50:35

It's

50:36

a hot potato, I know, but I'm very, you

50:39

speak very well on this sort of thing.

50:41

I think we spend a lot of time apologizing

50:43

for what rugby really is, which is a

50:46

extremely difficult contact sport. I

50:49

think that a lot of things that

50:52

the fans like to see,

50:55

we are now

50:57

trying to get rid of, so

51:00

handbags, for example, like

51:02

having scraps on the pitch. Obviously

51:05

we don't want to

51:06

be throwing punches and

51:08

battering each other, but there's not a fan

51:10

on the world that doesn't like a team get

51:12

in the mixer with each other and have a scrap.

51:14

He misses it. It's also part of

51:16

the psyche of what that does to the opposition. And

51:19

the fans, the fans get into it. Like

51:21

we had it against, who

51:24

do

51:24

we play? I think it was Munster last

51:26

season.

51:27

Um, and I wasn't playing, so I was

51:29

in the crowd and we had a big mix

51:31

up and you should have seen, should have

51:33

seen everyone get on my feet. And then for the next 10

51:35

minutes, people are flying into each other. Like

51:37

that's the kind of stuff that people love. But the minute

51:40

we've got refs who are,

51:42

I've got too many rules to follow as it is to,

51:44

to make any, to have a good

51:46

game at all. Um, and

51:49

then they are essentially, uh, mumbing

51:52

the players on the pitch and threatening detention.

52:00

It started off for ages, then apologizing with the

52:02

reality people. Yeah, exactly.

52:04

So I think that

52:07

there's certain, so you look at ice hockey for

52:09

example, then they're not getting rid of the fights because they

52:11

know that's what the, the funds want to see. I'm not

52:13

saying we want to, we want to see fights in a pitch or

52:16

I'm not saying, I'm not saying

52:18

that that's going to make the game better,

52:21

but

52:22

it's one area where we're, we're actually taking

52:24

away our product.

52:27

Uh, we're taking away some excitement.

52:29

Um, and we've also got to find a way to get

52:32

ball and play higher, um,

52:35

and stoppages lower. Cause

52:37

we do. I mean, I've turned over to what side

52:39

watch rope illegal NRL, uh, Panthers

52:42

and state of origin because it's high

52:44

collision, high intensity scraps,

52:47

energy, space, ball and play

52:49

time, everything you want for a game. Whereas

52:51

a rope is, you know, we do that

52:53

in the R field and they say, you know, it's a collision avoidance sport.

52:55

I was like, what's so much worse have you been playing? Yeah.

52:58

Yeah. And also pulling it into people, you

53:01

can protect it, but I think you could make, you know, players

53:03

lives as we talked about better recovery,

53:05

better research on injuries, more time off,

53:07

less games, more powerful tournaments, we know,

53:10

and all and build up stars. That's what needs to happen as

53:12

opposed to everything else, because you can't, you're going to water it

53:14

down to the point where, you know, that's

53:17

Africa. England game was fantastic.

53:19

The, um, the South Africa Island game was

53:22

a mega was mega because it was whatever

53:24

we liked. It was, it was a big, physically intense

53:26

game that wasn't ruled by cards and it's what

53:28

everyone wanted to see. But that

53:31

Portugal Fiji, it was fucking

53:33

people banging at each other. I loved it. I

53:35

don't know. I just think we, I

53:37

think again, we've got to remember that the top flight of the

53:39

rugby is very different

53:41

than the grassroots. You know, we're here at grassroots club in Northampton

53:44

where we're caught and started. What goes on here

53:46

and the lessons you learn, the values and where you start again is

53:48

very different than the top level of the game.

53:51

And you've got to separate them. And if you're trying

53:53

to make everything linked to linear, you're going

53:55

to go wrong at the top level in NFL, they have

53:57

scraps, they have pushed, they have danced, they have celebrated, they have

53:59

muted. because that's what people want to see. And

54:02

I think at the top level, the promotion in S-Pro, they

54:04

are doing exactly what BC says, watering stuff

54:06

down, taking away bits of the products, the point where we're so lost,

54:09

we don't know what we are. And we're apologizing

54:11

for everything, apologizing for how we are, and trying

54:14

to pretend that we're not something where we're

54:16

actually pretty fucking insane men and

54:18

women running around, smashing shit out of each other,

54:20

swearing, getting angry, putting our bodies on the line,

54:23

injuries, collisions, sad moments, great moments,

54:25

violence, skill, that's

54:28

the game. That's the new marketing slogan right there.

54:31

But there's a lot you could do with rugby.

54:34

It is such a good sport.

54:36

The fact that you can have fans in a stadium

54:38

that mix, and drink and stuff like that, and

54:41

it could be an incredible product.

54:44

Imagine if you did

54:47

a North vs South in the prem

54:49

where the best Northern players play

54:51

the best Southern players, then you get in whole

54:54

regions involved. And can you

54:56

imagine the Northerners, if

54:59

they said they were gonna be playing the Southerners, everyone's

55:02

gonna get involved in that kind of stuff. So you could

55:04

really make

55:05

the game

55:07

a

55:09

much better product than it is now, but you just gotta think

55:11

outside the box a little bit more. Three game series,

55:13

North vs South, Twickenham, Principality,

55:16

and Morrie Fillworth. Obviously not where you're born. So if you're born

55:18

in the North, you're playing with them. Yeah, where you're born, not where you play. How

55:20

are they doing today, Morrie? Yeah, I love that.

55:22

No, they're good. Not right, let's fucking score a period, fucking

55:24

score the fairies up. Right chaps, a jolly good game.

55:28

Squansome Jam at the end, I fucking love that.

55:30

And then just make it like proper collision music event.

55:33

So just on that whole thing, is how did

55:35

you find the Netflix doco,

55:37

and do you think it's gonna end up being a representation

55:39

of what we want people to be seeing in the

55:42

game? Because obviously that's gonna come out just

55:44

before the Six Nations. Yeah.

55:46

I'm just intrigued to see how the boys

55:48

feel that it's gonna come out.

55:50

Yeah, well, I don't

55:52

know. I wasn't actually super involved with

55:54

it. Like I didn't have much interviews. But in terms

55:57

of what's

55:58

going on, they were like in camp,

56:00

is that what you're asking? Well, I'm saying, you know, were

56:03

they allowed to be fully in? When people

56:05

go mad? Yeah. What

56:08

is that side? Is it going to be a fair reflection

56:10

of what? I don't, I don't, I don't think

56:12

any team are going to like when shit's in

56:14

the fan. They're

56:15

going to let

56:16

Netflix in, in that room

56:18

with them. Do you know what I mean? That's when they have to, isn't

56:20

it? Yeah. Why don't you really want them in there?

56:23

I think so. Yeah, I think so. But

56:25

yeah.

56:26

They didn't make you a big star. You weren't a main

56:28

feature. He already was. Didn't

56:29

need it. Didn't he? No,

56:36

yeah. And I think a lot

56:39

of it is to do with, you know, people letting

56:41

go because,

56:43

um,

56:44

because Netflix essentially

56:47

can edit things however they want.

56:49

Um, so it's going to, I suppose it'll take a bit

56:51

of trust, isn't it? Um,

56:54

so, and

56:55

hopefully after a couple

56:57

of few years, we're working with each other,

56:59

if it, if it can continue that long, then

57:01

you can get to a stage where, you know,

57:04

they see the work that, you know, the real lows

57:07

and the real highs. Um, did you, sorry,

57:09

just did anyone, you see somebody start

57:11

playing up for the cameras, you were like looking around and go

57:14

fucking hell, you've never done extra training, you

57:16

always dress scruffily and do they go the whole time?

57:18

Go like, cause we had a really good game. Imagine what you'd be like.

57:20

Oh my God. Just that

57:22

one, the whole time. Right. No one's

57:25

won the shirt war. The whole time

57:27

I'm walking out to you guys, especially in summer. Cause you

57:29

listen to tag technique. I think you probably go a little bit

57:31

lower and they'd be like, James Haskell helps court and laws

57:33

and I couldn't understand why I was standing there talking. Nick

57:37

Easton come and Patman show him like, listen, right. I

57:39

have, listen number eight pickups. Yeah. We need to do that.

57:42

And John, no, we just walked past at the same time. And I'm like, minty,

57:45

you never fucking tried to help me. Don't worry about

57:47

that. Don't worry about that. I tell

57:49

you, you came up very well. The Amazon

57:51

one was, um, Lewis Sludlin.

57:54

He speaks brilliantly. Doesn't he? I mean, those are the kinds of characters

57:57

you want to see more of. Yeah, definitely. I think,

57:59

I think just people.

57:59

want to see more of what happens.

58:02

The ins and outs of it. So yeah

58:05

look, long may it continue and the more

58:07

publicity we can get for the game the better.

58:09

It's been a really enjoyable hour reflecting on

58:11

a quite brilliant career and I hope actually we'd

58:13

love to do more of this. I mean I think your

58:16

opinions on the game people need to listen

58:18

to and we need to get more of it out there. Do you want to do a quick honours

58:20

because everyone who comes on the show gets a bottle of...

58:22

So this is our gin, Black Eye gin. So

58:24

one part 50 of every bottle sold goes into the Black Eye Players

58:26

Fund which is an independent... Pardon? Black

58:28

Eye Rugby Fund. Black Eye Rugby Fund sorry. And

58:31

it's an independent fund that will... three

58:33

areas risk, recovery and research. So try

58:35

to make the game safer, try to help

58:38

with recovery for players if they're injured etc and

58:40

research is the best way of doing it for men

58:42

and for women across the country. You'll love

58:44

it mate. It's good. A little Mediterranean tonic? I

58:47

like yeah. A

58:49

slice of orange Mediterranean tonic or if you're having a martini,

58:51

a little date night, send the babysitter. A

58:54

bit of a colour scheme. It's cool isn't

58:56

it? If there's anything we can do around your testimonial

58:59

as well we'll send some bottles up for the table.

59:01

We'll do that. Good on you. Cheers.

59:03

Enjoy. Thank you. Look after yourself. That

59:05

is it for this week's show. A quick reminder we are on tour at

59:07

the moment so we've still got shows to come in Southend,

59:10

Plymouth, Newcastle, Nottingham, Manchester

59:12

and Bath. Go to cuffandtaylor.com if you fancy

59:14

getting involved in any of that. That

59:16

is it for this week's show. It's been an absolute privilege

59:19

to have an hour at Old Scouts for Courts. What's

59:21

next today? Back for child care. I had

59:23

my son ill

59:26

at school

59:27

so I had to get him because the missus

59:29

isn't home at the minute and

59:30

I've had to drop him at mum's

59:33

come here. Yes. Thank you very much. It's been a nightmare.

59:35

It's been a nightmare. How life changes in the blink of

59:37

an eye. Indeed. Yeah. Good on you.

59:39

Look after yourself. Enjoy the rest of the season. That is it for this week's

59:41

show. We are the Good to Ban the Rugby. Brought to you by

59:43

our very good friends at Continental Tires and this show has been produced

59:46

by Tom Edwards. See you soon.

59:51

You've been listening to the Goods.

59:54

Yay. The Bad. And the Rugby.

59:56

With Alex Payne, James

59:59

Haskell and... I'm Mike Pendle. Thanks

1:00:01

for listening.