0:00

You are not going to have

0:02

success if you turn out over

0:04

players consistently. It's just not going to

0:06

happen. I think England just have to be, again, spot

0:09

on, word perfect. We're in 80% of the

0:11

aerial battles. 50-50 boards on the floor. Shut

0:15

down that line out. The Twickenham crowd is a

0:17

hair trigger. They are ready to go after this

0:19

team if they don't start well and keep going

0:21

well. And that will be a negative. That'll be

0:23

an issue for them because that gets in on

0:25

teams. England beat Ireland in the weekend. We've had

0:27

a great season. I mean, because he's

0:29

more a scalp. Into

0:41

the final moments, Alex Payne trying to

0:43

keep this side going forward. Haskell takes

0:46

it on now with just relentless chat,

0:48

largely by himself. And there's Tyndall to

0:50

add the finishing touch of glamour and

0:52

World Cup winning stories and a slightly

0:55

sideways nose. That is how you podcast.

0:57

A dominant display by the good, the

0:59

bad and the rugby. Hello,

1:02

Dream Team. Welcome along to this week's episode of The

1:04

Good, The Bad, and The Rugby. Hope you're well in

1:06

partnership, as always, with our very good friends at Continental

1:08

tyres, no tins and no hass this week. So we

1:10

have raised the rugby IQ with

1:13

two of my learned friends from yesteryear.

1:17

Shane Horgan and Will Gribbin, very nice to see you.

1:19

Shaggy Squared. So I might say. We had an argument

1:21

in 2005, didn't we, about you could have

1:23

a. You also

1:25

have the same nickname. Yours was because of

1:27

Scooby Doo. Yes, because

1:29

you look like the Add

1:31

Curtin's classic Durham University. Didn't we all

1:33

get red cords, that sort of stuff. Yeah.

1:36

And that's cowardly. And as well. Yeah, yeah,

1:38

yeah. Top of the list. Spoke

1:40

a lot of weed as well. Come

1:43

on, ask you why you were not at

1:45

university days as well. No, it wasn't. It

1:47

was, you know, I never had a growing

1:49

up. And then of all people, David Humphries,

1:51

the new high performance director and IRFU. I

1:55

was on a combined provinces game to play

1:57

South Africa in the maybe.

2:00

98 or 99. Maybe 98. It was such a big

2:02

one for me. It was late 18 so I was

2:04

properly scruffy and

2:11

I was always half asleep and then I was

2:14

shaggy and that was it. I

2:16

never liked it. You were always

2:18

quite boho back in the day weren't you? You were quite thespy at

2:20

times. There was a lot of sort of ruched

2:22

colors going on in your dress zone. Yeah

2:24

and that's the only way that I have

2:26

anything in that line at all. Very

2:29

nice to have you both in. We are going to get very

2:31

stuck into England Ireland this weekend. We'll have a look

2:33

at the other pictures as well. But before we get

2:35

into sort of what is to come, how

2:38

do you reflect on games against Ireland? I've got

2:40

stats in front of me here. Will Greenwood played

2:42

5-1-3, lost two and Shane was

2:45

involved in both of them. Shane will have clearly some

2:47

opinions about those games. I think I won. I remember

2:50

very few games. I remember the ones I lost and I

2:52

was lucky enough to play an England team. We didn't lose

2:55

that many games. Ireland were front

2:57

and center and a couple of

2:59

games we got turned over in Paris front and center.

3:01

They are the ones that you

3:03

never want to go back and play again but

3:05

they just niggle away at you a little bit. 0-1,

3:11

Lions 4 games crushed

3:14

everyone winning by 50 points,

3:16

foot and mouth appropriately cancelled.

3:19

Lions takes place. I'm one of the

3:21

four or five snap all ankle ligaments

3:23

don't play any tests, destroys most of

3:25

the summer. Two or three others came

3:27

back and we actually had a massive

3:29

lesson. We went with, and

3:32

I hope this is taken in the context of looking

3:34

back, we went with players who weren't 100% fit.

3:38

You went round the back there, Keith round the back

3:40

of the line out, scored, got

3:42

stored. It was like being stuck

3:44

in a washing machine. Couldn't get

3:46

anything right. A few

3:49

different combinations. No warm

3:51

up game. Remember these guys

3:53

had gone up to Murrayfield, got

3:55

battered in their first away game.

3:58

We went to Ireland. And

4:00

it was one of those games that what just happened there. Wow,

4:03

we've walked into something. And

4:05

so I'll always look back at that one

4:07

and just go, we got preparation wrong, we

4:09

got selection wrong, we had a little bit

4:11

of misfortune. I'll always view that if we

4:14

played in March, in the form we were

4:16

in, my version of events

4:18

would be we would have won

4:20

a slam. But that's not how it played

4:22

out. I remember

4:24

that game, well, I remember most of that

4:26

game as being so incredibly nervous before it

4:29

because Jason Robinson was

4:31

against me on either side. And I

4:34

don't think it happened to me twice in my career where

4:36

I rang up a coach, I

4:38

rang up Matt Williams, who's my coach at Leinster. And

4:41

who I now work with actually in Ireland. And

4:44

said, what am I gonna do

4:46

with this guy? You should have wronged me,

4:48

we didn't have a clue either. Because

4:51

it was, and the

4:53

other one was Lomu, when I played against Lomu. You

4:56

ring to us that question. Yeah, Manny Williams.

4:58

Yeah, because actually, so we were coming from Ireland where

5:00

there was no, do you remember when there was no

5:02

defensive system, do you remember that? Yeah, you just turn

5:04

up and he would just tackle, and

5:06

then Matt came over from the World Cup

5:08

and implemented the defensive system. We were like,

5:10

this is sorcery, this guy is witchcraft. What

5:14

is this? And it was

5:16

phenomenal. So, he was, in my mind, a guru,

5:18

sorry, I rang him up. But

5:22

it was because I thought, playing

5:25

against Jason Robbins, it wasn't just that we might

5:27

lose. It's that he could humiliate you in such

5:29

a way that you might never play rugby for

5:31

Ireland again. Honestly, and Lomu was

5:34

the same. That's why they could end careers.

5:37

And more so on the wing. In

5:40

the centre, you can sort of hide and go,

5:42

you didn't drift, I drifted, what were you doing

5:44

there? There might be a collective responsibility. On

5:46

the wing, you're on your own. I've

5:49

drifted past the sideline a couple

5:51

of times. Keep on going. But

5:53

he said the same thing to me in

5:55

both circumstances, which is like sort of

5:57

maybe damning with fame praise. Total

6:00

is nothing you can do if they get

6:02

the ball. just don't let them get the

6:04

ball. Brenda else about Plant who did you

6:06

find hot to handle Robinson a lawyer Robert

6:09

to didn't play that well at extra. Bizarrely

6:11

you know as he's in the for me

6:13

was in the gop is one of the

6:15

that's to to Beswick as ever played against

6:17

am it as they did you didn't get

6:19

the ball predicted. Whites the wasn't It wasn't

6:21

up agony at a bag and we were

6:23

poor that day. Rarely pull the thirties zip

6:25

to win a crowd go crazy says to

6:27

schools great everything yeah really we try goes.

6:30

Wrong. it was just it was a

6:32

little bit like Murrayfield for England. In

6:34

the second off he just even the

6:36

good side you get caught he got

6:38

caught and I saw that and the

6:40

A.was a done lugar. That was true

6:42

and stringer now and was have happened

6:44

without a was.our gave that up there

6:46

with hackers I remember so Jamie Roberts

6:49

recently did you lock the run an

6:51

inside playing Tommy Bogan under. From.

6:53

A screenplay on I have no I Day

6:55

was like way it was the character in

6:57

Matrix you could bend near he was lighten

6:59

the other the how we made that tackles

7:01

if you remember certain circles just Lucy Statler

7:03

my Rodgers listen to Villiers know that he

7:06

could have weighed on the about full bucket

7:08

was running up the less times I've been

7:10

blair to see remember certain instances but stringers

7:12

absolutely I wouldn't the chemo it again the

7:14

I always go to and we my don't

7:16

think I'd only we the one if it

7:18

is no them. And

7:20

I know full we add some as

7:23

posts. Will come Yeah anyone on this conversation

7:25

my open outset, current England same and of of

7:27

that because I don't have much of a forbidden

7:29

Today I'm coming in a a tough on issue

7:31

soft on people. Don't push me for nice as

7:33

I don't push me for who you drop. Been

7:36

going to come in a with seems there I'm.

7:38

A Do stand by the fact that you know three. That.

7:41

Night. Maybe it would have been bit cruel

7:43

that night, but three or four weeks later

7:45

side could come to four or five of

7:47

us. and I bought a way I'm front

7:49

and center is I'm go. To

7:53

the heck of a didn't expect her. To

7:55

John. Has walked in have club of

7:57

gazes gonna and he could produce had an

7:59

for. His you or your six more

8:02

weeks if. You're done

8:04

son. Ah and it was because I was

8:06

someone who was always complete skinny guys by

8:08

printed I was I was gonna keep turning

8:10

a pretty good picks that I should never

8:13

repeat again. I look back on it and

8:15

go. My old man's body says he likes

8:17

it or pneumonia about middle of a fool

8:19

and thirty one or even the lions and

8:21

feel like going to say as I said

8:24

it landed on following God Roman that but

8:26

other than I've also seen on the badge

8:28

of give put me in success. Was

8:30

an interesting selection as I've ever talked about in

8:33

a place for know. I think there was a

8:35

real loyalty, but actually there are. I think there

8:37

are. Definite. Parallels between.

8:40

And. That that sort of machin and

8:42

in and two thousand and four and and

8:44

so more. It's all the bit unfair to

8:46

that team because a team were. Like

8:49

generational. Phenomenal team Boss.

8:51

I don't have You agree, but you weren't

8:53

of a citizen in the papers Weekend? I

8:55

don't think you are. You guys were at

8:57

your p had that world cup as he

8:59

was at your peak slightly before I target.

9:01

He doesn't wanna see that in a lot.

9:04

you know, slime fourth net. You are obviously

9:06

good enough to win the world cup. What

9:08

you were I don't you out there your

9:10

maximal as a team and then that's why

9:12

the so the collapse happened really quickly afterwards.

9:14

Gonna write a book on top. Same sentiment

9:16

sending them on exhausted New Zealand, Australia that

9:18

plagues European cutlet you everyone else would have

9:20

been doing a week off to a. Cup

9:22

final they are they going to six

9:24

nations were absolutely everyone wants to come

9:26

about you know was like will cutlets

9:28

up is whether will obvious and got

9:30

turned over by France over there place

9:32

nearly got nearly got humbled over. there

9:34

are a good second.com by this not

9:36

to say pointer. ah a new guys

9:38

breathe in one relatively complex or don't

9:40

have any cones called left on saw

9:42

a double movement bank goal disallowed and

9:44

and them Dempsey get a density and

9:46

as his tell the left with it

9:48

and chasing shadows back and and second

9:50

off you are the. in duncey to

9:52

death to beat young and zoos yes the

9:55

hungry and i we were slightly shell shocked

9:57

and that was with first time we'd lost

9:59

of massive credit. First time we'd lost since

10:01

99. We've gone five years

10:03

and rolled everywhere. I think if you

10:06

look at the England team, you're

10:09

holding the England team now, both

10:12

right or wrong, it

10:15

should be a new development cycle. And instead he said,

10:17

I'm going to get through the World Cup with

10:20

the players that we have there and play

10:22

this more pragmatic way. Can't change things up.

10:25

Actually that's fair enough. Maybe

10:27

he made the right decision there, but it means that he's

10:29

got more to do. And he

10:31

has to do it during the Six Nations. And

10:34

he has

10:37

to make significant changes. They

10:40

haven't bedded in. And it's really

10:43

early in the development cycle, your team in 2004 were

10:47

holding on and actually should have started in

10:49

the new development cycle. And they didn't. Were

10:53

compromised as a result. And you contrast that

10:55

to Ireland. So our Ireland team

10:57

at that time were young lads coming off the back

10:59

of a World Cup. We only got to a quarter

11:02

final as every Irish team has done. But actually

11:05

we were on the upward curve and we were comfortable and

11:08

we were ambitious and passionate.

11:10

And it made sense that we were on

11:12

the way up. And the Irish team now

11:14

are just completely comfortable. Having had a disastrous

11:16

World Cup, but it wasn't the end of

11:19

the cycle for them. If you look at

11:21

the age profile of the players, it

11:24

wasn't their last for hour that it had to get

11:26

to that milestone. It was kind of mid-career. And

11:29

they've just moved on seamlessly as a result. Three

11:31

quick stories from O5, whilst you're in. One, we

11:33

always thought we were

11:35

O5 Lions. Oh my God, the intelligence

11:38

levels of the Irish backs

11:41

on that. It was Hickey,

11:43

Darcy, yourself. It took the

11:45

chat at the back of the bus to a

11:47

different level for some of our English players who

11:49

moved further forward. We wrote the learned advice in

11:51

it. Two, I don't think we can say what

11:53

Steve Walsh called you against Karanaki.

11:55

So Steve Walsh was running the touch.

12:00

T-O-O-A-T, of course we were away. And who? What

12:02

did he call you? Blaine Saranacke, it was called him the C-bomb. Yeah.

12:05

And the- And the bloke, I think he's gone. Well, he's gone.

12:08

What? I think I appealed- Was it

12:10

brought away you? No, I know, I appealed for a line-ed, I

12:12

think. Me? He

12:15

obviously had something in his head, not just maybe about

12:17

lions, because he was, you know- The

12:20

bloke was two yards in touch. It was gone. I

12:22

was stood next to him and he was on the

12:24

inside. You go in touch and he goes, you can't

12:26

say that to me, you C-bomb. Like, whoa, aren't you

12:28

an international referee? Yeah, it was fine. We thought he

12:30

who controls himself controls the game on the inside of

12:32

the forearm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then the other favourite

12:34

one was, I actually, my last pass

12:37

in international rugby was a triscoring pass. Was,

12:39

yeah. So who? Who was it?

12:41

Let me think. Got

12:43

it. Ricky Hellas. No, Rico Green. Rico

12:46

Green. But it was meant to be to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because

12:49

you were on the left-hand side. I've got to say, I really don't think, oh,

12:51

what a show, saying his last pass in his first round. You know I knew

12:53

Ronan was a friend? You know how I knew he

12:55

was a friend? Because he chased him. Oh,

12:57

thank you. No way. I mean,

12:59

remember that Caster game? Remember that Caster game when he

13:01

made an intercept against Caster for Leinster? Yeah. And

13:04

he's got a 50-yard start. And he

13:06

hits the 22, and he hit the greatest

13:08

travelator I've ever seen. Watching him chasing Rico

13:10

under the post at Eden Park was, Ron,

13:12

do you know what? I remember

13:15

you trying for me. What was the backline

13:17

that finished that third test for the British

13:19

North? I know the midfield. The slowest international

13:21

midfield to ever take the field of rugby.

13:24

Yeah. Because it was me, Ronan Nogar,

13:26

and Stephen Jones. Why was it

13:28

10, 12, 13? I mean, wow. Great days.

13:31

Quato was on the right wing. Yeah.

13:34

Oh, maybe I came on for him. You were on the left. Was that what

13:36

you were trying to pass to you? I think you were. No,

13:38

I'd come around, I think. I think Jordan Murphy played 15, though,

13:40

didn't you, Jordan? Yeah. Oh, no, I'll tell

13:42

you. Yeah, he would have ended up 15. Yeah.

13:47

That was ahead of a tool. Don't know how we didn't win.

13:49

Yeah. Unlucky, I think, is the 50-yard. Come on,

13:51

let's miss first cut. How have we got into this? I

13:54

watched the point of the show. Steve Walsh. I've

13:56

never told that story. What I wanted, because we're going to

13:58

get into the game itself. Just quickly. reflection of 06 and

14:01

the one to try. Yeah, it

14:03

was... Oh, it was... That is Boyzone's

14:05

start. Yeah, it is. It was... I

14:08

can't overstate how brilliant that was. And

14:11

06 and 07, that's really... The

14:13

Crocoville ones. Only brilliant memories against

14:16

England. The last game there was rubbish,

14:18

but it has shaped my

14:21

life, actually, I would say. And that's

14:23

not an... Croc-Pel, especially in 06. Yeah,

14:25

so... I

14:28

said it to... If any

14:30

happened to me once, there was someone

14:32

who was asking me for advice about

14:35

a successful Korean rugby, if you're Irish. Score

14:37

two tries against England. That's all you have to do.

14:41

So it actually impacted my life, so it

14:43

allowed me, I think, a platform to work

14:46

in media afterwards as

14:48

well, which I'm very grateful to. But

14:51

when I think about when I was

14:53

growing up as a child and you're

14:55

recreating moments, your recreating moments

14:59

score tries in the last minutes

15:01

against England for a triple kind

15:03

of... At full stretch. At full

15:05

stretch. You know, and I had... The memories I

15:07

had in my mind growing up were, you know,

15:09

you would have had the famous try that Ginger

15:12

McLaughlin scored against Ireland, which he was carried on.

15:14

And I remember... Mick Gohwe, 1993.

15:16

Mick Gohwe. And I always remember the crowd coming in and

15:18

being part of it as well. And

15:21

then for that try in 2006, a

15:23

gourd jumped on me, you know, and we were rolling around. I

15:25

was still panicking whether I was in. I didn't know. I

15:28

said, like, because you're holding something back. Yeah. Because,

15:31

you know, if that's taken away, you're just destroyed. But

15:34

it was. It was like a boyhood,

15:36

the total boyhood dream. My brother tells a

15:38

great story about it as well. We

15:41

only used to get two tickets for, you know, away

15:44

games. Couldn't get them. So my mum

15:46

and dad obviously had them. And Mark had managed to

15:48

scrounge another ticket. And

15:50

he was sitting right

15:53

just in front of where that try was

15:55

scored. And he had become

15:58

friends with, you know... Irish

16:00

couple who were English Irish,

16:02

you know, so they were first-generation and he was

16:04

talking and bit them through the whole game and

16:08

you know, he was nervous the whole way with chatting away

16:10

and then scored the try and Up

16:13

and they're all screaming and going crazy. And

16:15

then he said that's my brother. I mean

16:20

He's not sure if they thought he was just a

16:22

loon. It was clay with this Yeah,

16:25

but what they were hooked because they were over

16:27

the final whistle They were hugging each other and

16:29

he left them with that's my brother and they

16:31

went into you know, never to never to speak

16:34

again Amazing and but anyway, and so there was

16:36

that I'm a croak part and croak for many

16:38

different reasons was sort of

16:40

social history in Ireland as well, that's what I felt

16:42

and Take a

16:44

minute. We lost that we should have won a grand slam that year.

16:46

Oh my god Yeah,

16:48

I lost to France the last kick of the

16:51

game, you know, it was shocking But

16:54

it was a circumstance where there was I don't

16:56

know what the options for us were if we

16:58

lost against England that game Yeah, I honestly don't

17:00

know and it's funny when you remove

17:03

the option to lose You

17:06

win and I was always careful saying that cuz on

17:08

the day I watched it was in the gym in

17:11

a bit Oh, I was mad to be brilliant. Well,

17:13

not if England knife island of battery game. He's not

17:15

shy I tell you how shit we are and he

17:17

batters us every time England losing. He'll literally drop a

17:19

note go has there been some rugby today? Oh,

17:22

he's bored, but I totally

17:24

agree there, but it was dangerous for an English person to

17:26

say that so wasn't sure I just

17:28

didn't feel sensing before that game

17:31

when the anthems and they were totally they

17:33

were beautifully respected there being talk of Potential

17:36

the anthems not being respected. Yeah, I You

17:39

as a team were not allowed to

17:41

leave that stadium beaten And

17:44

you could but you could sense that I would watch

17:47

you could sense that before yeah It was definitely the

17:49

case and I often think about the

17:51

social pressure that comes with countries rugby

17:53

countries like New Zealand and South Africa

17:55

They're the only ones actually that have

17:58

that history of success

18:00

forever, the expectation that they win every

18:02

single game. And I do think that

18:04

serves, you know, it's something that's passed

18:06

on to teams. Like, you know, obviously

18:08

the team of, you know, this year

18:10

has no connection to the team of,

18:12

you know, 50 years ago, but they

18:15

do because society pushes them

18:17

to not accept defeat. So that was

18:19

the kind of only taste of that

18:21

kind of thing we've ever had. When

18:24

you've got nowhere to go, sometimes you just

18:26

have to win. So, but I was telling

18:28

Tom before I came in, I

18:30

should have been sent off in that game. There

18:33

was a, and this

18:35

is what I reflect on this quite

18:37

a bit because it would have been,

18:40

again, totally changed my life if

18:42

it had gone the other way.

18:45

So Stratham, Stratham, David Strattle. Scored,

18:47

didn't he? He scored,

18:49

yeah. He

18:52

was playing opposite me and the

18:55

ball was chipped in and I was so

18:57

pumped up and I kind

18:59

of forearm smashed him and he didn't go down,

19:01

but it was the linesman was

19:03

right there. And

19:05

now with, you know, reviews and everything, you'd be 100%

19:07

gone. And so I always feel

19:10

as now as a commentator, I do say

19:12

I can see when

19:14

people make idiotic decisions

19:16

on the field. I kind of

19:18

have a sub-civitiy because the tension

19:21

that's involved, you just sometimes you make

19:23

bad decisions. It's like when they go

19:25

to the, what's it called, the death

19:27

zone in Everest, you know, there's not

19:29

enough oxygen and people start making really

19:31

bad decisions. That's what it felt like

19:33

for me. I made this terrible decision

19:35

and like almost my life flashed before

19:37

me in a second and

19:39

the touch judge was there, but I can't remember the

19:41

touch judge's name, but I'm certain. It wasn't Steve Walsh.

19:43

No, it wasn't Steve Walsh. But he

19:46

was retiring, right? At

19:48

the end, that was the last game he was ever

19:50

doing. And before the game, he'd come in and he

19:52

asked Brian To sign the shirt.

19:54

And Brian Was like, no problem. Any Laughs,

19:56

get over here. Shall I? Whoa, whoa, whoa,

19:58

whoa, whoa, whoa, hopeless objection. Yeah,

20:01

he's a follow on across below before

20:03

the game and so so you had

20:05

the situation was ass and then he

20:07

had the fact that are you going

20:09

to send off an Irishman in that

20:12

game But then. You know

20:14

can imagine If I said I would be

20:16

no absolute pariah. Costly pariah on that would

20:18

have changed my life is that is cool

20:20

to try assists the area in an email

20:23

the I know exactly yes you will move

20:25

with their ego Prosecute: get the referee assistant

20:27

referees tear my with the England said zoom

20:29

into the sunset sunset on a shelf the

20:31

on the athletic a smirk does he does

20:34

all this weekend and it's to me because

20:36

I'm pretty busy growing up watching the Olympics

20:38

is it was so lights on with that

20:40

is falling as party is what the sixty

20:42

was the many. Many as is of seats

20:45

sit round significantly Now it's sort of feel

20:47

this weekend like it sings job. To

20:49

spoil on his posse you've was, I've got

20:51

a wee bit. My dad finally got a

20:53

think that with again glimpse such. Much.

20:56

Losing the coach roy am he had

20:58

a full but as to what you

21:00

would have been must be five right

21:02

audio where at your place? Yeah yeah

21:04

yeah the average at Oakland year for

21:06

a package for I had as male

21:08

muslim guy per am at fullback whom

21:10

not sure my name is astonishing emanates

21:13

by Oman always says some as oh

21:15

yeah that full but doctor couple. That.

21:17

Posse a job he said protect itself

21:19

enough to touch the ball after that

21:21

etc. Up and agenda day be scored

21:23

high. Have been under that abs park

21:25

and a mailman in that he got

21:27

shot Chris Martin and he got charge

21:29

down at your place is one of

21:31

those are was i'm sure twelve years

21:33

old thirteen and just think it's or

21:35

gray and i'm just watching my.com o

21:37

but the weekend sinking into a whole

21:39

realize the top on the shoulder gonna

21:41

come at any moment so am I

21:43

Remember there was always a moment. In.

21:48

Oh. Sri when we

21:50

won Where. I.

21:53

Got accused of been a. From scenario that

21:55

in the cool got the ball under the cone.

21:57

I want will suffer as a couple things but

21:59

will. I pointed

22:02

straight to the crowd and looked at him and said,

22:04

I was like, Dad, I'm 85. And

22:08

a bit naff, but my old man had lost his job

22:10

at that place and had been booed out of town and

22:12

that was it. And I went back then and we'd been

22:14

beaten in 01. I was

22:16

like, I've got a win here at some

22:18

stage to try and balance the books. So

22:20

a fraction. I was really lucky that I

22:23

kept on missing the games. Ireland got huckied

22:25

in by England in that period. Is that

22:27

hamstringing? Will Carlin, you have 25-0.

22:31

My first cap was in 2000. It

22:34

was the catalyst for my first cap

22:36

and five other changes the next week.

22:38

First game was in Twickenham, 40 points

22:40

on Ireland and Ireland were lucky to

22:43

get zero, whatever it was. So

22:48

I missed that, then came

22:50

in, we had success. And

22:53

then the Grand Slam

22:55

game. Yeah. O2 was a kicking as

22:57

well. Yeah, I missed that one. And

23:00

then I missed the... I missed O3. Yeah, because Kevin

23:02

Mags was... I missed those. Kevin Mags and Brown were...

23:04

Yeah. And that nutter

23:06

from London High, Bishop. Justin Bishop. Yeah, Justin Bishop.

23:08

Yeah, yeah. Tyrone played in that as well, I

23:10

think, didn't he? Yeah, he may have. Yeah.

23:12

He may have played in that. Lovely

23:14

dance down memory lane. Yeah. It

23:17

was quite self-indulgent by the way. No, it

23:19

was quite... You know, people will love this

23:21

because it is a fiction with extraordinary, not

23:23

just sort of significance, but history and there's

23:25

a lot that goes on between these two.

23:27

And I think this Saturday will be another...

23:29

But you're right, the context for this game

23:31

has changed a little bit because that was

23:33

always the context. It was Irish

23:35

massive underdog. Yeah. And can we spoil the party?

23:37

And a lot of it, those games were, you

23:39

guys were going for Grand Slams, you know, and

23:41

we weren't. Yeah. So that... And that was the

23:43

case and they were... You were always favourites

23:45

and that tag sat, well, I actually think Borthwick

23:49

does himself and even in the disservice

23:51

by talking about, like, for example, last

23:53

weekend, where the underdogs... Well, England team

23:56

shouldn't be underdogs the Six Nations to

23:58

anyone. They shouldn't. And now Ireland... Thank

24:00

you for saying that because by the way if

24:02

I get shot I couldn't agree with you. Yeah.

24:05

But if you look at the development of the Irish

24:07

team we were always underdogs and we were

24:10

felt comfortable underdogs but you know what

24:12

it's really self-indulgent to give

24:14

yourself the tag of underdogs because ultimately it means you're

24:16

losing more games than you're winning or you're not expecting

24:18

to win the big games, you're not expected to win

24:21

those big games. I don't think that's a

24:23

good position to have

24:25

for a team or just a mindset.

24:27

So what Ireland are now is undoubtedly

24:29

something that doesn't sit well with Irish

24:31

teams or Irish society is you've

24:33

got a team that are now

24:35

consistently, you know, favourites.

24:40

And you know it would be sort

24:42

of a traditional Ireland going for the second Grand Slam.

24:45

You can't pretend that you're not favourites so you just

24:47

have to deal with being favourites. Yeah. Crowns

24:49

sit easy on their head. Now it doesn't mean

24:51

they'll necessarily win the back to back Grand Slam

24:54

but you watch Ireland turn up at stadiums in

24:56

the way they play. There is

24:58

no talk of fear, of

25:00

nerves. They look to

25:03

a man so comfortable in everything they're

25:05

doing. So comfortable. Yeah. I

25:08

think that took a very long time to get to that position. Yes. And

25:11

it's only just there now. I loved your line that you gave

25:14

us the other day which is it's not just

25:16

the actor that knows his own lines or their

25:18

own lines, it's the actor who knows everybody's lines.

25:21

And Ireland just seemed to be this machine at the

25:23

moment in which every cog is

25:25

working in perfect harmony. Can I just ask

25:27

super quickly what the mood was post

25:30

World Cup and how

25:32

long before they just moved on and

25:35

went back home and got a great team? This is the thing.

25:37

I expected a bit more of a hangover. If

25:40

you look at what's gone on with France

25:42

we could do another two shows but it's gone

25:44

off and fallen off an absolute cliff. I

25:47

think it's clear that the

25:50

expectation of that French team was 100% that we're going

25:52

to win the World Cup and this was our only opportunity to

25:54

do it. It was our whole World Cup and it's gone and

25:58

it's you know and will never be repeated.

26:00

and they're still in some way, whether the

26:02

coaches or players or a bit of both,

26:04

they're wallowing in that and haven't been able

26:06

to break loose on its effective performance. And

26:09

I, you know, to a lesser degree, I

26:12

kind of know, I've seen that happen before because it happened

26:14

with us in 2007 and going to 2008. 2007,

26:18

our expectation was we were going to do very well in

26:20

that World Cup. We had a disaster and

26:22

we had missed an

26:25

opportunity. We knew that there

26:27

wasn't another four years actually. And for the vast

26:29

majority of people on that, it ended up not

26:31

being another four years. That was it. And

26:34

that brought, you know,

26:36

that was brought into the next six stations and we

26:38

had a terrible six stations last three. So

26:42

that's where France, with Ireland, I

26:46

don't think it was as acutely

26:48

bad because I know it was out in the

26:50

quarterfinal, but it was against New Zealand. So

26:54

just historically, we talk about Ireland being favourites

26:56

or being under the... You

26:58

know, somewhere in the psyche, it's acceptable to

27:01

lose New Zealand in a World Cup. Right.

27:03

For almost anyone apart from South Africa, right?

27:05

You can sort of get away with that.

27:07

So I don't think they had that. They

27:09

saw, oh, this was totally ripped out of

27:11

our grasp. Interestingly, I think maybe

27:13

in two years time they

27:15

might go, especially if their success continues, they

27:17

might go, actually, that was our chance. Yeah.

27:19

But right now they haven't held that. And

27:22

Sexton did sort of a favour to everyone.

27:24

His last departing gift was, you know,

27:27

he has this quote, we lost, but

27:29

we won because of the experience

27:31

they all had and their sort of connection with

27:33

France and everything. And I think that got the

27:35

player through to where they are now. Now, I

27:37

don't believe that, actually. I think they lost and

27:39

they lost. They lost a big opportunity and things

27:41

like the line out went wrong, which they

27:44

must regret forever. So maybe the difference between the

27:46

win and that World Cup because it was a

27:48

big opportunity. But they haven't carried the emotional baggage

27:50

on, which is which. And it

27:52

wasn't. There didn't seem to be a huge amount of

27:54

emotional baggage from it. They got rid of it pretty

27:57

quickly. I wonder also you talk about

27:59

not one that. engagement with the fans

28:01

and zombie it sort of lifted the team

28:03

into a new realm of Connection

28:05

between themselves and their supporter base, which is something

28:08

that England at the moment are Really

28:10

searching for underlined a few times over without

28:13

sort of their own questions cut me

28:15

your cake on England right now What are you

28:18

seeing what is frustrating what

28:20

progress is is there for you

28:22

and we're going for a deep reach? In

28:24

a couple of ideas scribble down known and sort

28:27

of coming on here And

28:30

I didn't want to I don't want to come on here and put poor a

28:32

load of petrol on Yeah, I'm gonna get rid of

28:34

him get rid of that what they're doing is a

28:36

complete shambo's. I'm trying to be 2024

28:40

let's see the positives. Let's look at the

28:42

issue. What's going on? The

28:45

top of my list is I don't think Which

28:48

isn't there any of it that I don't the balance of the

28:50

side Is right particularly

28:52

in the pack. I've always felt in the pack

28:55

I mean the fact that Ireland

28:57

the entire pack can all catch carry pass handle

28:59

it is great Yeah, I think every pack really

29:01

has to have a space hunters

29:03

and space fillers You have to fall ads

29:06

who can bend over and push and leap

29:08

and just do set piece Metronomically

29:10

well into a huge authority in

29:12

the set piece And then you have

29:14

to fall out you can play of it because otherwise in the modern

29:16

game You can't get yourself out of a hole if you get stuck

29:19

behind you can't change the game you can't play I

29:22

think England have become so focused on

29:24

fixing trying to fix defense I'm trying

29:26

to fix set piece that

29:28

they've got a pack that is just slightly

29:30

skewed in terms of lads who are Tremendously

29:34

impressively strong up there at

29:37

their skill set which

29:39

is scrum and line out But

29:42

then what's the point of being amazing at

29:44

that if once you've got the ball you

29:47

can't actually do a huge

29:49

amount with it So you could

29:51

actually have an argument for every single one

29:53

of those players in the England pack playing

29:55

but with a different combination I hope I'm

29:57

making yeah, absolutely perfect on that so We're

30:00

winning loads of ball, we're hitting our metrics, we're

30:03

hitting our data, but the point is once you

30:05

get the old thing, like Mike Tyson, once you

30:07

get a slap in the face, you

30:10

lose the ability to stay in control. I think

30:12

that's where England are. They start well, they've

30:14

got history starting well and getting seven points, ten

30:17

points, but the second you stop them on the

30:19

game line, I think their ability to play their

30:21

way out is tough. Then

30:23

you move on to the question, and it's

30:25

something to be up when I'm boring, data versus

30:27

feel. You

30:30

look at understanding, well, the data says you

30:32

don't run it from here because, again, but

30:35

that limits your ability to be threatening,

30:37

look threatening, even if you are going

30:39

to kick it. I would expect

30:42

everyone to play with pace and

30:44

with tempo. From restarts, we

30:46

go straight into box, I watch Ireland play from

30:48

a restart, they never kick straight off, down, they

30:50

go midfield. Occasionally, they get half nibble, playing out

30:52

the back, or

30:54

they get hit middle, get stopped,

30:56

they split their kick as low

30:58

left, Crowley, Crowley, Crowley and Frolo

31:01

get confused, Crowley right, split kick

31:03

off, go, forces wingers to

31:05

come up. England always go lock, bang, in

31:07

the corner, one rock kick. I'm

31:10

not asking you to run it, to

31:12

expect to score a try. Just

31:14

ask a question. Just play a little bit and look as

31:16

though you're going to play. The

31:19

tall nature of our scrum, I

31:22

was walking towards a rock,

31:24

tell the entire opposition that even if it was

31:26

on, they wouldn't run it. Attack the

31:29

ball, you might still box kick

31:31

it, but get there quick and look

31:33

like you're getting quick. I did have one more

31:35

which was just

31:38

interesting, just choice of

31:40

mindset. So can't

31:43

remember the minute, right hand side, Italy,

31:45

halfway line scrum. Right, so if I gave you

31:48

an international scrum on the right hand side now,

31:50

at 42 years old. You

31:53

get a drift car, you go right hand side.

31:55

I know the Italians defend with their scrum

31:57

off in the boot, so they don't even use them as the

31:59

first one. sit in the back and he goes,

32:01

if I sit you halfway line right hand side

32:03

scrum as a centre

32:05

who scored umpteen tries, what's going through your head?

32:09

You would want to get all the backs against a

32:11

limited number of backs for Italy. And you get excited

32:13

right? You get excited and you go, here we go,

32:16

here we go. Pass

32:18

to Henry Slade. Oh yeah, sorry, there's no expectation you would

32:20

do anything other than move the ball wide. Oh

32:23

yeah. So that's a given. You're going

32:25

to play right? Yeah, yeah. been

32:27

paying for England, I've got a right hand side scrum or a left hand side scrum, here

32:30

we go. They drop it to Henry Slade, he kicks it.

32:32

He just go, no, no, no, no, what's that?

32:35

And it sort of showed it again, I'm going

32:37

into my new show a little bit, it just

32:39

says the mindset of what then people are playing

32:41

against and as a player, off the

32:43

top line out, first line out against Scotland, Ben

32:46

Earl, he only just gets across

32:48

the game but he's still, relative quick ball, bang,

32:50

straight back to forward, in the pocket, cross kick.

32:52

Now we won the ball back but

32:54

it was a tap ball, it was a 50-50 ball

32:57

and it's just how your mind

32:59

is. So my view would be with, talk

33:01

about space, hunter, space, I think there are

33:03

a variety of lads in that England team who probably want

33:05

to play a little bit more but

33:07

it's not part of the game plan and there are those

33:09

who don't want to play a little bit more who just

33:11

want to stick to the game plan. So the problem is

33:14

you're then stuck in a hole because even if it then

33:16

shows itself and the opportunity is there, half the lads are

33:18

going to go, no, no, we don't

33:20

do this. So I'm then hesitant to set off because

33:22

I'm going, if I go, is anyone going to follow

33:24

me? And then

33:26

you really are stuck in a little bit

33:28

of a hole. So my point would be

33:32

if you pick players and you've got Dingwall in there

33:34

and players like that, give him first

33:36

receiver roll, get him to go at the line off

33:38

that wide right scrum, get Slade on his outside, drop

33:40

Fordie around the back, don't know who was on the

33:42

right-hand side at that time, Freeman

33:44

would have been floating in and around. It

33:48

just feels as though they are

33:50

stuck on with

33:54

an attitude that makes it really difficult for them

33:56

when they need to turn it on to be

33:58

able to turn it on. feels like

34:01

they don't have a philosophy of their

34:03

own. They haven't established what the philosophy

34:05

is. Now maybe we're seeing the start

34:09

of a new philosophy. We saw a

34:11

slightly more progressive play against Scotland. We

34:13

don't know if they'll continue that. I

34:15

think if they don't

34:18

continue it, I think it's going to be damaging.

34:20

If they go, actually, let's just retreat a little

34:22

bit for this game so we get over this

34:24

game. That's what the problem is. That, together with,

34:27

instead of having an overall philosophy

34:29

that is in England, they've got players.

34:33

What can this player do for England? What

34:35

type of player is he? Then we'll build

34:37

out this week what's best around

34:39

that. We've got some big bull carrying sanders. Got to

34:42

use them. We've got a big number eight. Let's get

34:44

them off the back. That

34:47

changes week to week depending on who's selection is. That's

34:49

what it feels like instead of this

34:51

is our identity, this is what we're trying to

34:53

do. Now you can build your identity based

34:56

on the type of players that you have. You

34:58

don't just go, here's an identity and then try

35:00

and put a round peg in a square hole.

35:03

You go, these are the type of players I

35:05

have. This is the right philosophy for this type

35:07

of players. That may be more or less progressive.

35:09

Then you go after that. That is it. You

35:12

have a coach who inspires you to

35:14

deliver that. You have the

35:16

team buy in from it. One of the issues

35:19

was, you've got players talking about how we think

35:21

we should be playing this new different type of

35:23

way and we've had a work with the coach.

35:25

It's like, what? No.

35:28

It's like the coach should be

35:31

saying it's the way we're playing. You should be

35:33

buying into that. If

35:35

you don't have that as a starting point, I think

35:37

you're in big trouble. The best teams you were part

35:39

of were coach, set the philosophy

35:42

and then the players determined it. The

35:44

phrase was coach driven player led. I'm

35:49

not excluding, I'm not saying we don't

35:52

hear of the players. Listen, what happens

35:54

is you have the best coaches do

35:56

this. They have a general idea

35:58

of the type of rugby that that they want

36:00

to play, right? They then go and see what

36:02

players they have. And

36:05

they will do a version of whatever, you

36:07

know, philosophy they're having based on the type

36:10

of players. With those players, they will talk

36:12

about their players. What you would do is

36:14

you find about, I think you maybe need

36:16

five or six lieutenants

36:19

or advocates, right, for what you want to

36:21

do. The best coaches I ever, you know,

36:23

ever coached me did that. They were smart

36:25

enough to go in, these

36:27

guys are the key people that are going to deliver this. He

36:30

doesn't then have to sell in what they're doing because

36:32

those players will sell it in for you. If

36:35

you have advocates on the key areas, the key

36:37

lines across the field, that's what you do. Can

36:40

I ask again, I mean, I listened

36:42

to a Radio 5 Live interview before,

36:45

what was our second game? Wales, we're talking

36:47

about. And Martin Johnson was on. And

36:50

I think Mark Chapman was

36:52

doing it. He said England have talked this

36:54

week about expressing themselves,

36:56

Martin. You

36:59

can already feel, oh, hang on, it was, I

37:01

rang him up straight away. I cried with laughter.

37:03

I go, you just wanted to spew. He

37:06

goes, I mean, he doesn't understand what. So my

37:08

view would be, that would be as an older

37:10

guard. When you hear, if you heard an opponent

37:12

says, oh, we really want to express ourselves this

37:14

week. Do you know what it is?

37:16

I think it is Charlton's

37:19

behavior, right? It's horseshit, right?

37:21

Because if you

37:23

look at Ireland now, Ireland look like a very

37:25

sort of progressive, evolved team where they're throwing the ball

37:28

around. Right now, and that's only in the last little

37:30

while. That comes from

37:32

a real strict, rigid philosophy and

37:34

game plan that's established, that gives

37:36

the options that people take. But

37:41

it is counterintuitive. The more sort

37:43

of structured you are, the

37:45

more unstructured you play you can have, and

37:47

the more decision making you can have. But

37:49

this idea of expressing yourself, you have to

37:51

have a system in place, right? Express yourself

37:53

as making decisions, right? Making the right decisions.

37:56

That's what expressing yourself is. It's

37:58

not like, you know, I'm, I'm. I

38:00

get the ball here on a whim, I decide to

38:03

do something crazy and I want

38:05

to express myself as a rugby player. That's

38:07

a nonsense. You have a system at place. That's not

38:09

to say you don't take the right option. The

38:15

right option could be a hitch kick around the corner and

38:17

take this guy on the outside or it could

38:19

be a flicking behind the back. It

38:21

could be any of those things but it's

38:23

based on a framework

38:26

that allows you to make decisions based

38:29

on what's in front of you. The

38:31

issue I have is you can't try and have a

38:33

connection with the fans by saying we're going to express

38:36

ourselves and then against Scotland it would be nine points

38:38

down with eight minutes to go and go to box

38:40

kick routine. It's

38:42

just a totally contradictory. Then

38:45

the fans start to go, what are you

38:47

telling me? If you're trying to make that kind of...

38:49

it's not about the fans winning the game but I

38:51

think you mentioned that sort of disconnect at the start

38:53

between players and fans at

38:55

the moment and you're in danger of

38:58

over promising and under delivering. Are you using

39:00

the term expressing yourself

39:02

as it being used incorrectly

39:04

interchangeable with ambition? Because

39:07

ambition is something else and every team needs

39:09

ambition and the best teams have the most

39:11

ambition. You spoke

39:13

about how Ireland exits

39:15

their defensive zones now with

39:18

the options always to especially if it's on

39:20

the right. They

39:25

almost always have a look to see if they want to move

39:28

it left to right, all the way left to right. It's

39:30

always an option there. By the way, ambition is important.

39:32

That's expressing yourself if you want to use that. Not

39:35

like an individual on a whim doing

39:37

something silly. If you go to the detail there, if England

39:39

then go right we know they're going to exit with low.

39:42

Let's put four on that side. Well, they'll just run it up the right and score. It's

39:45

up the right hand side. By

39:48

having that mindset of yes, we've got

39:50

our parameters, we understand where we'd like

39:52

to exit from, we exit on the

39:54

front foot, we try and force people

39:56

forward then kicking behind by having all

39:58

these options. having the actual ability

40:01

that if it is on in your own 22

40:03

you go for it that's what manipulates D's and

40:05

that England just don't seem to be doing at

40:07

the moment by not exploring and if you don't

40:09

trust the ability to look after the own ball

40:12

look after your own ball for two or three phases

40:14

in your own 22 before you kick then

40:16

you're just inviting pressure. By

40:19

their own admission English rugby is in inverted commas

40:21

in transition at the moment that's what that's what

40:24

the narrative is coming out of the camp they

40:26

are trying things they've implemented a new defence they've

40:28

got new coaches new players etc what

40:31

you're saying makes it sound very muddled and

40:34

I think a lot of supporters

40:36

would probably say that what they're watching

40:38

appears very muddled can you see

40:40

what they are trying to do as a path

40:43

of progress from this or are you worried that

40:45

the narrative and what you're seeing in selection you're

40:47

seeing in game plan means that you're just going

40:49

to keep going around the roundabout for quite some

40:51

time. If I start with the initial point let's

40:53

start with a some optimism

40:55

and says so can I say yes I

40:57

can see let's put really let's put the

40:59

framework in place first let's I know there's

41:02

been a small I don't think

41:04

it's been a spot I think Ben Young said something about they've

41:06

not they're not doing enough reps in attack yeah the

41:08

players have the same thing we're

41:11

doing enough so I sort of get the

41:13

the easier things to fix which

41:15

you alluded to which you've got to pick those

41:17

players in that World Cup and the reality is

41:19

they found themselves in the semi-final they found themselves

41:22

15 six or 10 minutes ago it's really difficult

41:24

to argue with that and in their fans right

41:26

we had him we had him so

41:28

you go set pace and you go things

41:30

you can fix quickly and defense

41:33

and so from that perspective I can

41:35

absolutely see that the problem that it comes

41:37

with is the expectation as others found a

41:39

island is so blooming good we've got France away we

41:42

can't win a car cut a cup to save our that

41:46

those slow baby steps for not for

41:48

a union like England which however much

41:50

they might argue about lack of money

41:52

and time together is it's

41:55

that's a tough debate to win to

41:58

say oh no we haven't got enough time

42:00

together We haven't got enough players. You

42:02

know, they're still in a five-star luxury

42:04

hotel at the Penny Hill Park They

42:06

still travel and that's not about we

42:08

did see in a

42:11

different type of player some development

42:14

of the attacking

42:16

philosophy against Scotland, so What

42:20

happens now against Ireland as I said at

42:22

the start? Do you pull back or

42:25

do you keep on going and hopefully you can get you know,

42:27

it works So what's the question? Are you what do

42:29

you think? What you can't be is half-pregnant? That's

42:33

the big problem. You can't be half

42:35

pregnant. So, um, um, I don't know

42:37

how far they've gone on the path

42:39

There's two two conversations here. One

42:41

is in defense. They should have made they've had

42:43

two weeks now Either side

42:46

of the Scotland game they should have made really

42:48

significant progress in defense in that time That should

42:50

be they should be if you go with the

42:52

same personnel Well true

42:54

true true, you know, but either way there

42:56

to some degree there should be You

42:59

know, there should be significant improvements. There will be

43:01

a philosophy of the team We'll be more aware

43:03

there be breadth numbers it and it's easier side

43:05

of the ball to make progress on the more

43:07

difficult one is The attacking

43:09

side of things and the problem with attacking

43:11

side of things It's actually also your defensive

43:13

size because if you start dropping ball putting

43:15

ball down then you start, you know, you

43:18

start absolutely like you know and

43:20

leaking points as well, so um,

43:23

it'll I think it'll depend on

43:26

how confident he is in what the process

43:29

that he started you mentioned very briefly as

43:31

a Real snippet as to the all-bloods going

43:33

where it went line out But the

43:36

only way you can beat only way you can beat

43:38

on you deny them the lineup All right, they win

43:40

line out with their bounce out plays and so much

43:42

of it and again I'm I watch all islands games,

43:44

but I don't watch as many of your lengths the

43:46

games as of course you do but I

43:49

see if they control the line out

43:51

and they control control the touchdown They're

43:53

a little bit like watching Manchester City

43:56

against Manchester United yesterday United

43:58

go up with a with an absolute screamer.

44:02

And then it's 85% possession, they

44:04

control the ball, they control the tempo of

44:06

the game. Gibson Park is an extraordinary, fabulous

44:09

rugby player to understand when to

44:11

run, when to kick, but he attacks every rocker

44:14

as though everything's high tempo and then even might

44:16

slow it down. And if they control the tempo

44:18

and the drumbeat of the game, then

44:20

England are done. I

44:25

think that's at the very core how do you beat Ireland?

44:27

You've got to then score

44:29

the choice. But you've got to

44:32

whoever's in charge of line out,

44:34

which I think is Steve himself,

44:37

has to find a way to limit them to 65,

44:39

70% success rate. And if they do that, they've

44:43

got half. That's not impossible.

44:46

That's not impossible because this Irish

44:48

line out isn't

44:51

where it's the one area that slight vulnerability that

44:53

and the problem is with line out. If people

44:55

think you have a vulnerable line out, you have

44:57

a vulnerable line out because the

45:00

way people attack it is different.

45:02

Like you people think you've a

45:04

flawless line out, they're sitting on the ground. They're actually

45:06

not even throwing numbers up because they're more worried about

45:08

you getting rolled over the mall. They want to be

45:11

how fast they can get off the back of the

45:13

line out to stop you damaging the midfield. So they're

45:15

not contesting. But you

45:17

know, so do you think England will go hard on

45:19

it? They're going to go massively hard on it. They

45:21

were going to see numbers up all over the place.

45:23

And that could have the bearing on selection potentially as

45:25

well. But they will see that Ireland ended

45:28

six nations last year wasn't perfect.

45:32

Pre World Cup games, it was raised,

45:34

oh, we have an issue here in the World

45:36

Cup. It cost us. It was the

45:39

thing that cost us. And you know, that was sort

45:41

of the frustration that we come out the other end

45:43

of the World Cup when it really matters. And

45:46

we didn't deliver. We come out against Italy,

45:49

have a perfect France, perfect line

45:51

out, Italy, perfect line out. But

45:54

you know, even Paula Colle said against

45:56

France, they were a number down for missing

45:58

their best line out jump. in Wilmester.

46:02

We were against Italy, Italy weren't

46:04

as contesting as it might be,

46:06

against Wales, it was going alright, wheels

46:09

started to come off a little bit in the second

46:11

half, England are going to be all over us. All

46:13

over us. It's OJ,

46:15

Chester and Martin, we're all three of them playing

46:17

staff. They'll pick six, six foot

46:19

five yards, they'll pick two, four at the tail

46:22

and they'll just get as many of

46:25

them up in the air and they'll

46:27

risk the fact. They absolutely, Ireland control

46:29

the touchline, Ireland

46:31

batter. So that means, it's more than just that,

46:33

that means also changes how

46:35

England might kick because they may kick the ball out

46:39

or kick the ball to Ireland and let Ireland

46:41

kick it out more often than they

46:44

normally would. So the question

46:46

is here, is

46:49

this an ultra specific

46:52

game plan to beat Ireland or

46:54

is it continuing on the path of

46:56

development for a bigger prize somewhere else? I

47:01

think it will be very specific to Ireland. Totally.

47:04

I mean because it's what a scalp. Yeah. You

47:06

beat the best team in the world, I mean you

47:08

talk about what you were saying before Shade about your

47:10

career made to beat this Ireland team

47:12

now. I remember they went to New Zealand, you

47:14

can't ignore what happened in the World Cup but

47:16

I think there were 11 out of 11 on

47:19

the spin in the Six Nations.

47:22

What they did in New Zealand, I mean

47:24

list on one finger the amount of

47:27

teams that have won a test series in New Zealand.

47:29

It was, having lost the

47:31

first, you did lose the first, didn't you? I mean having lost the

47:33

first, they should have won and you think oh that's going to kill

47:35

them and they come back. So England

47:38

fans, England beat Ireland on the weekend, we've had

47:40

a great season and it's got us in

47:42

because that's so good. Hasn't that narrative changed in 15 years ago?

47:45

You have to find a win quick because Shane

47:47

alluded, before the Scotland

47:49

game, the next 10 tests

47:51

were three against New Zealand, one against

47:54

South Africa, one away in France, one

47:56

away in Scotland, two Japan games, I

47:58

don't know how those, are straight. Australia at home, well,

48:00

you know, I mean, no Joe Schmidt's turning up and

48:04

who beat the Crusaders on the weekend, the

48:06

Waratards. They've got a few players coming through.

48:08

You're thinking, we've got three gimmes there. Gimmes,

48:12

this is balls, isn't it? Wow,

48:15

that's coming out in November. Can

48:17

I ask you, it's very, very interesting about the tactics that

48:20

are going to be pointed. One of the things that seems

48:22

to be a really hot talking point around England, I mean,

48:25

it's just, I was going to say consistently, it's actually

48:27

inconsistency in selection, particularly in the centre combination.

48:29

I'm fascinating your view on that.

48:31

Very quickly before that, Pop Quiz questions.

48:34

The most successful England centre partnership,

48:37

oh, I just want to come down there, of all time is... Scott

48:39

and Kylian? I

48:42

mean, I told you, I

48:45

don't know what he said. You can say it. I

48:47

say me. Like, what? Not me.

48:50

Greenwood and Tyndall. What is it? 19

48:52

matches together, 17 wins, 89% the best in Britain

48:55

and Ireland. Tyndall's

48:57

good, man. It had to be, didn't he? You had to

48:59

say that, didn't you? Most

49:01

successful Ireland centre combination of all time. You

49:05

and Drico? No. I

49:08

only played a couple of times in the centre. I

49:10

tell you, Mags and Drico

49:12

would have been good for a while. Accu-Hendshaw? It

49:14

was... Oh, Accu-Ringrose? How many

49:16

games? More than five. Accu-Ringrose?

49:21

It might be, because Drico had so many games. Who did Mike

49:24

Gibson play with? They didn't win them all on a no-did

49:26

they? That's going way back.

49:29

The answer is... A Driscoll

49:31

and a Hawken. What was that? Seven

49:33

matches, six wins, 86%. Oh. D'You

49:36

know what? D'You know what? Thank

49:39

you for bringing up that stat. That really made my day. Don't do

49:41

that little feather in your media, Cabs. You

49:43

will put on them. I should have spent more time in the centre. Yeah. I

49:46

could wait for that with that bloody win, wasn't I? Yeah.

49:49

So what that leads on to is obviously the

49:51

consistency for you, and to actually Mike Catt as

49:53

well, the three of you were

49:56

an amazing combination. It was better than both of us.

49:59

But when you dig into it... England in recent years. So

50:01

this is the last World Cup cycle. Ireland

50:04

41 games, 10 centre combinations,

50:06

83% win ratio. OK? So 10 combinations in 41

50:08

games. Scotland 44 games, 12 combinations, 59%

50:14

win ratio. Wales 45 games, 21 combinations, 36% win ratio.

50:16

And England 45 and 19. So they've tried

50:24

19 different centre combinations in 45 games,

50:27

which is essentially 1 and 2. They are

50:29

changing their game at 53% win ratio. What

50:33

is the question? The question is, how can you build

50:35

a team with great difficulty? Right,

50:37

full start. Is that part

50:40

of the problem then? Because as you said,

50:42

England, they've almost got too many players and

50:44

they've got 10 different clubs, all

50:46

of whom are championing their own players. They've got

50:48

options every time something goes wrong to change things.

50:51

Does there need to be an

50:53

attempt to try and build something

50:56

for the long term? Or can England probably

50:58

just not afford to do that because of

51:00

the external noise and pressure? So

51:02

then it comes back to a little bit. So

51:04

let's take, who should we take? Fraser Dimmel. In

51:08

particular, I enjoy watching Fraser Dimmel play.

51:10

He's only played two times and got dropped because

51:12

of course they brought the power back of Ollie

51:14

Lawrence. The thing is, I think a lot of

51:16

those centres have had it. A lot of them

51:18

are decent centres. Yeah. But they've all tried

51:21

to play them in a man or an

51:23

Ollie Lawrence way. So they've all ended up just being

51:25

a slightly worse version of the people they really wanted

51:27

to pick because of the style they really wanted to

51:29

play. As opposed to, I want to pick you for

51:31

what you can do rather

51:34

than force a round peg in a square hole. Because

51:36

Fraser Dimmel never plays ring ring in the end. He'll

51:39

go, I never really

51:41

got to play like I

51:43

played. So it goes back

51:45

to the philosophy of what do you want from a centre? And

51:48

by the way, if you haven't got that availability, then

51:51

by the way, you've got to find a different way to play with

51:54

the lads that you've got. I don't

51:56

know if I'm answering your question. Do you know the other

51:58

thing that's really, really important? And I think

52:00

this is really understated. People don't

52:02

speak about it. If

52:05

you have the center for me is

52:07

incredibly crucial to the overall style the

52:09

team is going to play. Because if

52:11

you do not have a big

52:13

presence at center, the ball doesn't get out

52:15

there. Actually, it will

52:18

be dominated by the pack, the

52:21

10, maybe even first center. You

52:23

need somebody out there that is saying, this

52:26

ball should be coming out here, or we should

52:28

have options. To move the ball wide, I want

52:30

to play in this game. I'm not standing here

52:32

as a passenger cleaning out rucks and carrying ball.

52:34

I'm actually going to play rugby to the point

52:36

that you said about getting excited about the play.

52:38

And if you do not have someone who's established

52:40

and has played and can be very demanding, then

52:43

that doesn't happen. And that was the

52:46

thing. I was absolutely blessed with having

52:48

Brian O'Driscoll and center for Ireland and

52:50

for Leinster, because we knew Brian was

52:52

by far our best player. And

52:55

so we had to develop a game plan. Whatever

52:57

the other players we had, get the ball to him,

52:59

and good things are going to happen. Or

53:03

even use him as a decoy. But it's going out

53:05

in his direction. And

53:07

I would say, same for you.

53:09

You're blushed, but you were a

53:11

very confident, established player

53:14

who would move the ball as well. And

53:16

you're not going to stand out there and

53:18

wait for a forward pack, as dominant as

53:20

your forward pack were, to go, listen, you can

53:22

have the ball the whole time. You're like, actually, we're getting in on this

53:25

as well. Don't have anyone of that

53:27

stature, almost anywhere

53:29

across the back line. Right. So

53:32

this is the sort of question. I'm trying

53:34

to find ways for England to get themselves

53:36

the questions you've thrown

53:38

around identity and philosophy. And how

53:40

do they build something or fast

53:43

track something in

53:45

the current situation they're in? Or is this just going

53:47

to take? I mean, the

53:49

danger is it's just going to be more tinkering and more tinkering

53:51

and more tinkering. And results are going to pile up against them.

53:54

We're going to have more questions and greater pressure.

53:56

This is the next conference, though, is Marcus back

53:58

fit and available? Yes. And Alex

54:00

Mitchell. And Alex Mitchell. But then you're back to

54:02

spinning the wheel again. Well are

54:05

they spinning the wheel or are they picking the team you wanted

54:07

to pick? And you might say well, look

54:09

at Olly Lawrence. Look at the challenge Olly Lawrence

54:11

had in having not played rugby for six weeks

54:14

and getting stuck straight into a Calcutta Cup game.

54:16

Marcus Smith hasn't played in six weeks. You're now

54:18

asking him to go up against the best team

54:20

in the world for a team

54:22

that is low on confidence, a crowd

54:24

that is ready to throw its tomatoes

54:27

and say get out there and win us a game. Is

54:30

that a reasonable decision to make?

54:32

I'm trying to work out where else you go. The

54:35

Olly Lawrence selection, it's a tough

54:38

ask for that style of

54:40

player to come back in and dominate having

54:42

not played. The

54:44

reality is, wearing them might say they've been a

54:46

little unlucky is if

54:49

man had been fit, he'd have 130 cups and he'd have

54:51

played all of them. You might say well that's the way

54:53

he played. So I'm not trying to find having said the

54:55

most amount of players, we've got stuck

54:58

on a style that we go he's

55:00

at his best so successful at what

55:02

he does that we

55:04

keep trying to clone

55:07

him or find a version of

55:09

his style to play and we

55:11

found one with Olly who also has been

55:13

reasonably susceptible to

55:16

injury. By

55:19

the way, it's really hard to find on that. Just

55:22

on that, the best England have

55:25

played in the last 10 years

55:28

wasn't with that type of centre, though I

55:30

think he may have played outside centre, is

55:33

with two first receivers in

55:36

Ford and Farrell when they were at their best at the

55:38

World Cup in 2019. That

55:41

semi-final, I know, harb on about it the whole time,

55:43

was not the best for me I've ever seen any

55:45

team play and that was with two

55:48

first receivers attacking the line in the Mac

55:50

Gitto type bowl for Australia that did it

55:52

so well four years before and got them

55:54

to a World Cup semi-final with an average

55:56

enough side as well. specifically

56:00

on the game that first, Carl

56:02

sings a little tip on, Courtney Lourdes in

56:04

off the top, but back to the forwards

56:06

of the balance of playing and having that

56:08

ambition, not expression, having that ambition

56:11

to play. Look,

56:13

I'm super strong and you've always

56:15

got to have two first receivers, but I've

56:18

almost given up shouting because they

56:20

just don't pick them, or

56:22

will always go back to and default, go

56:24

back to that balance of space hunters, space

56:26

fillers. In your back

56:28

line, you need three lads who

56:30

get really comfortable playing fly-off. Right.

56:32

You really do. You can just

56:34

drop into that first. George Fervent

56:36

tried it at Scotland, which is

56:38

great to see. But, you

56:41

know, without your points, I agree with you, and

56:43

it's interesting, we were speaking just before we came

56:45

on here, if you look at someone like Bundy

56:47

Akey who came

56:49

into Ireland, he's your power, he is

56:51

your Ollie Lawrence, he is your power

56:53

man, get you over the game line,

56:55

recycle, passion isn't great, but like, just

56:57

a matter, he has, and maybe this is

56:59

a product of Ireland, not having as

57:01

many players, and maybe he would have

57:03

been turfed out under the other circumstances because

57:06

his passing, especially left to right, was

57:08

very average. He has upskilled, unbelievably, because

57:10

I think he's gone right. This

57:12

philosophy, the way Ireland are playing, is bigger

57:14

than me, and I'm going to be left

57:17

behind here unless I work on this area

57:19

of the game. And of course, you

57:21

know, he still has that power game, which

57:23

is, you know, he looks more powerful than

57:26

ever, actually, but he has the ability to

57:28

drop the ball off and pass the ball

57:30

while moving forward, which makes him, as

57:32

he is at the moment, feels like a time's unplayable. Yeah,

57:34

and you talk about stability selection. I mean, one of the

57:38

best upskilled centres in the past 15, 20

57:40

years was Mar-n-Onu, who came on to the scene

57:42

as a 21-year-old guy, I'm going to rip your

57:44

head off and run over you. By the end

57:46

of it, in the World Cup in 2015, he's

57:49

very mispassaged offloading out the back door for that

57:51

wonder try. He scores one, he's got balance, he's

57:53

got an outside break as well, which

57:56

buys into your point of why is there

57:58

not being more stability in selection. I

58:00

think England would have had more stability in selection

58:02

in the midfield, but for

58:05

Manu being

58:09

so injured so often and

58:11

therefore chasing and chasing and chasing

58:13

and when people don't deliver on it, let's

58:15

try and find the next version. I'm not

58:17

waiting for him because you couldn't really draw

58:19

a line under him, could you? No. But

58:22

this is a really interesting stat. In the two Langi era,

58:24

it was debut 2011, didn't it? So

58:26

what if you had 13 years of it? Manu

58:29

used 47 different centre

58:31

combinations around Manu. He

58:34

started with 12 different centres from Mike Tindall, which

58:36

you believe, through to Joe Marchand. I

58:39

mean, that is... I don't know what

58:41

the answer is, but perhaps there's

58:44

something in the challenge. I'm assuming, by the way,

58:46

that the rest of the England team haven't

58:48

had that much change. So you know

58:50

when I say... Because that could be a data point that's actually

58:52

relevant because the back three might have changed as many times. Has

58:56

England just continually chased for the

58:58

past 10 years across the team?

59:01

But funny enough, it leads... And I'm not sure this

59:03

is necessarily the show to do it, but what you

59:06

have got in Ireland is four provinces, which enables combinations

59:08

to spend a lot more time together. And in Scotland,

59:10

you've only got two. Whether

59:12

trying to pick an international team now where

59:14

time is of the premium and

59:17

combinations are, as we've begun to see here, Ireland's

59:19

10 centre combinations with an 83% win ratio, do

59:22

you need to find a way for English

59:24

players to spend more time playing together so you pull

59:27

the teams out of Europe and you put in four

59:29

super regions or something like that, where

59:31

you've suddenly got six more games for English... Well, I don't think

59:33

that's realistic. I don't think it's going to happen. Where

59:36

it can happen, where it is actually... It

59:38

was like on the back of the bus in 05 when

59:40

I came up with the political idea. Yeah, yeah, yeah, shut

59:42

up. I don't know what happened. Shut up and make the

59:45

team. Thanks, Chase. Thanks for coming on. Idiots. I

59:47

hope you enjoy your last gig here. Ben

59:51

Neece with his group, Collar, is

59:53

his smoking point. So the issue

59:55

is that consistency or that familiarity

59:58

can be bred through. consistency

1:00:00

of selection and that's where it has to be, that's

1:00:02

what you looked at. Ireland are your

1:00:04

right, we are lucky in

1:00:07

that we have, you know, our system

1:00:09

was set up with four provinces that

1:00:11

were sort of naturally, that was organically

1:00:13

there. It's about right for the

1:00:15

amount of Ireland, talent Ireland

1:00:18

has and it also does

1:00:20

two things. It means that players play together a

1:00:22

lot and you look at almost the whole Leinster

1:00:24

team or they could play the whole Irish side.

1:00:30

But also then even when they get into Ireland, they're

1:00:33

consistently playing and they're familiar and

1:00:36

you know, you'll know that the stats

1:00:38

of this, it's often quoted is that

1:00:42

Australia team that won the World Cup in 1991 and

1:00:44

1999, especially the 1991

1:00:47

team, I think there was maybe three

1:00:49

teams involved in it or there were both suppliers

1:00:51

to it. And that sort of

1:00:54

cohesion is what's really

1:00:56

important. So you are not going

1:00:58

to have success if you turn

1:01:00

it over players consistently. It's just not

1:01:03

going to happen. There's

1:01:05

very small silver lines that people

1:01:07

losing their jobs and clubs going

1:01:09

under. I

1:01:11

totally agree, if we end up with eight, I

1:01:15

think we're starting to get to

1:01:17

the stage where each one of those can

1:01:19

be strong, you can play in units and

1:01:21

combinations and it's easier to make these changes

1:01:23

knowing that you're playing together a lot

1:01:25

more often, but it's not going to be a popular thing to

1:01:27

say, chop it to eight. No.

1:01:30

Will Gremers, we'll just master that and click it up.

1:01:32

Will Gremers says chop it to eight. Let's bring back

1:01:34

the divisional championship or something like that. Okay, trim it.

1:01:37

It's better words. Trim, trim, then chop it.

1:01:39

Select it. Yeah. Curate, curate

1:01:41

it to eight. Curate the eight. There you go.

1:01:44

Can we just bang the drum on

1:01:46

how it might, I mean,

1:01:48

you spoke about Croke Park, defeat is not

1:01:51

an option. How did England find something

1:01:53

on Saturday which is fire,

1:01:56

brimstone, fury and a win? Yeah, again,

1:01:58

I mean, I think I

1:02:01

think if you edited three games you'd find

1:02:04

a decent 80 minutes in

1:02:06

it. And so it's there for, it's there

1:02:08

and how consistently can they put those passages

1:02:11

of play together. I think what

1:02:13

it's going to be really key is the

1:02:15

Scotland game, 10-0 up, real

1:02:18

control and just the

1:02:21

first phase, seven pointer, the wide ball,

1:02:23

Tripoloto gets to the outside of George,

1:02:26

plays like George Cottram steps in, Slade is

1:02:28

gone, on the blitz, on the hour, no

1:02:31

this is my man. And the new systems

1:02:33

that work, as the new system works, which

1:02:35

is the interesting about half-braininess,

1:02:38

have they got that ability to go, this

1:02:40

is a really threatening island time, there are

1:02:42

times now when we are going to blitz.

1:02:45

And you might say, no, no, if you blitzing, you blitzing the

1:02:47

whole time. I think a good side

1:02:49

finds a way to go, we don't have to blitz

1:02:51

all the time. And you go,

1:02:53

well, then you ask. Well, but there

1:02:55

will be really interesting systems to put

1:02:58

in place. I just think that seven

1:03:00

points that they gave to Scotland when

1:03:02

the game was starting to have real control.

1:03:04

Scotland were as bad as they'd been. Would

1:03:08

that be fair to say first 20 minutes? First 19 minutes,

1:03:10

they scored in 19 minutes, 50 seconds. The

1:03:12

bad as they'd been, they couldn't get out, kept dropping

1:03:14

balls and we then caught it from them. But

1:03:17

that's seven points that they gave out. And

1:03:19

then when Duann van der Merver scores that

1:03:21

wonder try from a turnover, they pressed again.

1:03:25

Don't press on turnovers. For his hat trick, we

1:03:27

get bust up the middle, got a

1:03:29

narrow defence, we press again. And

1:03:31

it's just, I mean, Finn Russell had a three and

1:03:33

a half thousand square metres he could have pushed it

1:03:35

in. If you're interested, if you pause the video as

1:03:37

Finn kicks, half the team are

1:03:39

pressing. And then a couple of lads are going, we

1:03:42

shouldn't be pressing here, a corner flagging. And it's like

1:03:44

a defence coach's nightmare when you've got two lads running

1:03:46

one way and two lads running the other. So

1:03:49

you're right, maybe, and that's why you've

1:03:51

got to be patient with what's going on. But I

1:03:53

do think, and I don't think it's a case of

1:03:56

half pregnant. I think there are real times when we

1:03:58

go, lads, we are all in it. bang,

1:04:00

but there are moments in the game

1:04:02

against Ireland where you

1:04:05

think, we just, we, I would

1:04:08

say to them, okay, 38 minutes on the clock and England are

1:04:10

winning 10-3 and Ireland have a scrum

1:04:12

on the left hand side, right,

1:04:15

just before half time. You might go,

1:04:17

no, keep going, keep listening, keep listening. I might go,

1:04:21

I'm on the cautious side here, let's get to

1:04:23

half time at 10-3, let's have some on settlement,

1:04:25

let's just go for a nice square press, do

1:04:28

what they want to do and by

1:04:30

the line you go, you can't, I think

1:04:32

good players should be

1:04:34

able to understand when

1:04:37

we keep going and we keep going

1:04:39

and you keep going and then there

1:04:41

are times when this is not the

1:04:44

right time for a relatively new

1:04:46

system to go all in against a great team.

1:04:48

Interesting. But there's a few things that are going

1:04:50

to be easy wins for England. I

1:04:53

know Ireland had a good scrum game against Wales

1:04:55

but it's not an area

1:04:58

necessarily that you would hang your hat

1:05:00

on for Ireland, it's traditionally an

1:05:03

area of England, good performance. So, set

1:05:05

piece dominant, we've already spoken about the line-out,

1:05:07

it would be a significant piece. Go

1:05:10

after Ireland in the air, I'm not

1:05:12

suggesting a massive vulnerability there but... England

1:05:14

having quite good... England having quite good.

1:05:18

I'm not sure if it's going to

1:05:20

be a full back, it may still be.

1:05:23

He's good but he's only played one Six

1:05:26

Nations game. So, it's

1:05:28

potentially missing Mike Hansen as well.

1:05:32

The pressure we've seen

1:05:34

Ireland can't or tend to overplay when

1:05:36

there's a huge amount of pressure and

1:05:38

they can't get into the system they

1:05:40

want off multi-phase, they can get knocked

1:05:43

behind the game line and that's where

1:05:45

your point is really smart as

1:05:47

well that you don't maybe don't double blitz under those, get

1:05:49

the blitz, get them behind the game line, fan

1:05:52

out, what are you going to do guys? Are

1:05:54

you going to overplay? Then you can get yourself into trouble again

1:05:56

because Ireland don't have a brilliant kicking game in the middle of

1:05:58

the third, they don't have a great offensive kicking game. So lean

1:06:01

into that and make them play phases and potentially

1:06:03

phases behind the game line and keep your system

1:06:05

And then the other thing Ireland

1:06:07

have an excellent exit strategy,

1:06:09

but They are there

1:06:11

is a good chance they can get blocked down. So

1:06:14

you can see who their kickers are They

1:06:16

use they use low massively his left foot

1:06:18

boot. You send a shooting run low. He's

1:06:21

Vulnerable if not hit behind the game line. He's a little bit slow

1:06:23

in the way he kicks through you get a block down Crowley

1:06:26

as well as has been blocked down a couple of times

1:06:28

He's a little bit slow and sometimes it gets a bit

1:06:30

too flat keep the ball away all of a sudden, you

1:06:33

know You've got an opportunity you've got opportunities stop

1:06:35

dropping the ball I know that sounds crazy,

1:06:37

but like actually you limit your head that

1:06:39

on Sundays in Richmond Park the

1:06:42

amount of and You know if

1:06:44

you limit your errors offensively as well that keeps you

1:06:47

in the game What else have you know just don't

1:06:49

let someone get sent off someone gets a yellow card

1:06:51

change perspective the game This is a game that's you

1:06:53

know for England. It's not like a slam dunk for

1:06:55

Ireland Yeah, sympathy Give

1:06:58

the how do you stop you drop or

1:07:00

give people early touches on where they want understand that

1:07:02

I think there was one which came off Ben Earl

1:07:04

shoulder that Slade was going out the back We knew

1:07:06

we were going out the back There's no need to

1:07:08

be that tight to Henry on the short then

1:07:11

it's just Give you don't

1:07:13

let perfect get in the way good right

1:07:16

in the first 15 20 minutes You don't

1:07:18

have to go all the way at

1:07:20

the line and pull off the perfect play You

1:07:23

set piece plays great fine Go for it

1:07:25

stretch the limits right right on the edge

1:07:27

because you have to break a first-phase diva

1:07:29

But in phase play don't be

1:07:31

afraid of a slightly earlier ball And

1:07:35

giving everyone that opportunity to play and get

1:07:37

involved and get their first touch I mean

1:07:39

the reality is we're not reinventing the wheel

1:07:41

here. Yeah, we're just trying to make sure

1:07:43

I think England Would England

1:07:46

would hope if they still had one thing that

1:07:48

every fan would want it can England be in

1:07:50

the game at half time Give yourself a chance

1:07:52

to win the game. That's what they need

1:07:54

to do box clever two questions on

1:07:56

Ireland How worried are you about this game out of ten?

1:08:00

answer.

1:08:03

My pre-position is to be really worried

1:08:06

about all games but even

1:08:08

going into that and the great example that I've gone into

1:08:11

that French game, this

1:08:13

is a game Ireland shouldn't be winning, it's

1:08:15

against France. But no, and then the

1:08:17

side of France and you

1:08:22

kind of, I'm hardwired to be sort

1:08:24

of negative. It is

1:08:26

and I've got those scars there, I've

1:08:28

brought them through with me and then

1:08:30

I think it becomes more

1:08:33

difficult again than Twig you

1:08:45

see the Twig and the Cred getting on top of them. I think the

1:08:50

Twig and the Cred is a hair trigger. They are

1:08:52

ready to go after this team if they don't start

1:08:54

well and keep going well and that will be a

1:08:56

negative. That will be an issue for them because that

1:08:58

gets in on teams. So if

1:09:01

that becomes a factor then you

1:09:03

know Ireland are very very comfortable delivering their

1:09:05

game plan. They don't make a huge amount

1:09:07

of errors. Comfortable chasing? I think we go

1:09:10

10, 17, 16. They don't chase actually. They don't

1:09:12

chase. They just let it go. They

1:09:16

just let go and next thing all of

1:09:18

a sudden they're back in the game because

1:09:20

they continue to do what they you know

1:09:22

what they're they plan to do and they

1:09:24

generally take the right options. That can be

1:09:26

disrupted. They can be disrupted. Ireland have been

1:09:28

disrupted by a couple of teams but generally

1:09:30

you know they are the most comfortable most

1:09:32

professional team there's ever been. Yeah and talk

1:09:34

about chasing. We know in 2019 there went

1:09:37

I mean it's 29-0 there

1:09:39

was no way you can change from 29-0 against New Zealand

1:09:42

in the quarter final but I brought the

1:09:44

notes I made from the quarter final and

1:09:46

you forget England Ireland went 13-0 down. It

1:09:48

was 13-0 down to the all-blacks in this quarter final.

1:09:51

Again slow start. I don't know if it's the pressure.

1:09:53

It's like the all-blacks. A

1:09:55

couple of line-outs went awry early on. Emotion.

1:09:57

A couple of duff penalties got off the head of it. But

1:10:01

they found a way to fight the world back in. And when

1:10:03

is it 16, Keller gets held

1:10:05

up over the line on the 69th minute,

1:10:07

Jordy Barrett. I mean, Jesus, you're kidding me.

1:10:10

The All Blacks win a scrum pen with seven men. But

1:10:12

Ireland are back in it at 25, 24. It

1:10:15

was all Ireland, all Ireland

1:10:17

in the second half. And that won't help them to think

1:10:19

about it like that because they go, how

1:10:22

did we? But in terms of comfortable chasing, what

1:10:24

I see there is you're in a world cup

1:10:26

quarterfinal, 13-0 down to the All Blacks. The proof

1:10:28

is in the pudding. I was saying, well, shut

1:10:31

up. They lost. They put themselves

1:10:33

back into a game where most teams just collapse

1:10:35

and fold and walk away.

1:10:40

So I think they can chase. I

1:10:42

think England just have to be, again,

1:10:44

spot on, word perfect, win 80% of

1:10:46

the aerial battles, 50-50 balls on the

1:10:48

floor, shut down

1:10:50

that line out, and

1:10:54

explore a little bit with the

1:10:56

ball. I know it's not saying mixed messages win the

1:10:58

aerial battle. But you have to look as though you're

1:11:00

going to play at times. You have to try and

1:11:02

raise the tempo at times

1:11:05

if we just go, I'm not

1:11:07

saying park the bus, but if

1:11:09

we just go data, this is what we

1:11:11

do. I think Ireland find a way to

1:11:13

win. Just

1:11:15

looking at the overall tournament this year, and we

1:11:17

were muttering about this before we started recording, have

1:11:20

Ireland raised the bar, or have the others dropped

1:11:23

the bar? Yeah, well, I hear no. Is

1:11:26

this what you have to say? It has to be if Ireland are doing well, it has

1:11:28

to be if everybody else is. France have

1:11:30

fallen off a cliff. Listen, they're

1:11:32

off a cliff. I mean, they could end

1:11:34

up bottom. Wales beat them. Do

1:11:36

you know, there's a staff. France were 100

1:11:39

to 1 for the wooden spoon. And

1:11:42

you say Wales beat them. I mean, that

1:11:44

leaves them England, France, England rather,

1:11:46

in the last round. It's just... What we

1:11:48

play for. Yeah, well, sooner. Let's

1:11:51

come to that next week, shall we? There

1:11:54

is... I think Ireland

1:11:56

have been extremely consistent. They've built on last

1:11:58

year. Last year was a very... very good

1:12:00

Six Nations in preparation of the World Cup. They

1:12:02

won the Grand Slam. They're the team that has

1:12:05

held their form, and they've held their form at

1:12:07

a very high level. And

1:12:09

the changes that they've made, you

1:12:12

couldn't say Crowley has made the

1:12:14

team better because it's Sexton, but

1:12:17

he hasn't made it discernibly worse. You

1:12:19

killed McCarthy. Joseph McCarthy has made the

1:12:21

team better. And what a man of

1:12:23

the field as well. Yeah, what a,

1:12:25

yeah, he is a great, very interesting

1:12:27

guy. McCarthy and Byrne as

1:12:29

a combo. Yeah. There's not a

1:12:31

lot they can't, you might say, oh, let's have a go

1:12:33

at them in the line, I know which one of them

1:12:35

will do, but like. You're looking at their skill sets. That's

1:12:38

another string to the bow. Like he is a massive

1:12:42

second row in the sort of, of

1:12:44

the stature, physical stature, that Ireland don't produce. We produce

1:12:46

a different type of second row, and a very good

1:12:49

second row, but he's almost like a South African second

1:12:51

row. And the way he carries the ball, he's got

1:12:53

a good footwork, and he's

1:12:56

just smashed his way into

1:12:58

that team. He's displaced James

1:13:00

Ryan and Henderson. Henderson was

1:13:02

the captain of the Lions, wasn't he,

1:13:04

for one of the games, certainly midweek.

1:13:06

Midweek, yeah. John Ryan was being spoken

1:13:08

about as a potential Lions captain at

1:13:10

one point. He's like a, he

1:13:13

was James Ryan. James Ryan, yeah. James Ryan, he hadn't,

1:13:15

he hadn't, I think he, of his

1:13:17

first 20 games for Ireland, I think he almost won everything. He

1:13:19

didn't leave the season. So, and

1:13:22

that hasn't been a change that has, you know,

1:13:24

we need to change tactics. And that is, I'm

1:13:26

coming in, I'm taking over, and that's what he's

1:13:28

done. So, I think Ireland are continuing to play

1:13:30

at a very high level. There has been a drop off

1:13:33

on the other teams. Let's see where England are at the

1:13:35

weekend, but Wales aren't great. You know, let's

1:13:37

see, again, that last game against Scotland, that could be

1:13:39

all of a sudden an interesting game. Italy,

1:13:41

that was probably a decent performance for them

1:13:44

against Ireland in retrospect, wasn't it? And they

1:13:46

looked like half, you know, they're performing in

1:13:48

a reasonable way. France, you know,

1:13:50

fell off a cliff, but also I think that first

1:13:52

game Ireland pushed them off a cliff. Can I just

1:13:54

do our Continental tyres question of the week, which comes

1:13:56

from J. Barber, my T9. They are

1:13:59

our sponsors. If you

1:14:01

spot it, we're going to brand your forens

1:14:03

for the next episode. Haskins

1:14:05

actually changed his name. He's now James

1:14:07

Continental for the next 12 months. JBaba99,

1:14:10

how many of the England team would

1:14:13

get into this current Ireland set up?

1:14:18

So, backline. What's

1:14:21

it you see this is the difficulty. We don't know

1:14:23

what the England team is. Well, Freeman's going to play.

1:14:25

We could pick England players. So the smallest board of

1:14:27

England players. Freeman's going to play. So could Freeman get

1:14:30

in front of Nash, who's been only a couple of

1:14:32

games and he's looked great but I'm trying to find.

1:14:36

James Gibson Park, Crowley at the moment,

1:14:39

Shooins. Yeah. Aki

1:14:41

Henshaw. You know, in a

1:14:43

different world could you see

1:14:45

he's a tennis

1:14:48

back fish. Marcus Smith. Marcus

1:14:50

Smith, you know, what would he be like in

1:14:53

an Irish set up? I think he's a remarkable

1:14:55

talent. We don't know about Crowley yet. We think

1:14:57

he's doing well. He's very good. I like a

1:14:59

lot about him. The way he tacks the line

1:15:01

flat. He's got real bottle which is really

1:15:04

important in a 10 and he's done really

1:15:06

well. We don't know yet but Marcus.

1:15:08

So he's got a very high ceiling

1:15:10

as well. It's the question for this Saturday. Because if

1:15:13

the question for this Saturday, you have to pick Crowley.

1:15:15

Yeah. If his game

1:15:17

is this Saturday, I think Freeman in

1:15:21

that set up would be decent. Yeah.

1:15:24

Up front? Are you picking Nash? You're

1:15:26

picking the whole Irish back line. Well,

1:15:29

you could certainly make a case for it, couldn't you? You know, you would

1:15:32

pick low, let it down. Yeah.

1:15:35

To be honest with you, any three of

1:15:37

the centers you would pick. Yeah. Thank

1:15:39

you, Harry. Depends

1:15:41

who plays a full back potentially for England

1:15:44

and for Ireland. Although I

1:15:46

really love Frollier. He's

1:15:48

a great player. Keenan. Keenan's

1:15:50

probably I think the best student of Fairbank.

1:15:53

Full back maybe in the world. Keenan's the best full back in the world. So

1:15:56

Freeman. Freeman. In the

1:15:58

back front. And Then. Them and

1:16:00

Nine am go through the i think

1:16:02

we've got to props. I be afraid

1:16:04

the to hookers who are who are

1:16:07

phenomenal boss or I'll breeze ice Jamie

1:16:09

George up as a player. He's he's

1:16:11

a brand player both is he is

1:16:13

he better than. The. Done she

1:16:15

has some of get would have given you enough

1:16:17

you're a lawyer fry isn't big enough for for

1:16:19

like out there so yeah yeah that is available

1:16:21

at up as if is jointly agree I we

1:16:23

regret his outfit amended on the I were to

1:16:25

leave I get i want to get outta here

1:16:27

as good as though doesn't sound of a great

1:16:29

as as know just some the but again we

1:16:31

just took them a class him bernie's doesn't get

1:16:33

it sun setting. You

1:16:35

know if I do something else I target

1:16:37

is a well as the Allah yeah a

1:16:40

but I to girls are quality player article

1:16:42

I think Tauruses is premium. you might find

1:16:44

a of space or. Maybe the back

1:16:46

row. And if I'd spit. On

1:16:49

M Sports like are you even been like

1:16:51

This is just a snapshot because you know,

1:16:54

listen a toting for the any time the

1:16:56

last eczema hears you'd go out. Lg would

1:16:58

be in there. But actually the way Burn.

1:17:01

I got your plant the moments hear them

1:17:03

to very best lap dance lessons and witness

1:17:05

might be very different after in advertised as

1:17:07

of us we compare Pocus to Change You

1:17:09

will notice board but it's that sort of

1:17:12

proverbial. This is what the second? Now I

1:17:14

began my couple Ivy Ross here on that

1:17:16

we don't forget your says yeah omitted society

1:17:18

has you feel like I've jumped into the

1:17:20

boat as you can still around to the

1:17:23

a slight flush Montages extrapolate I question how

1:17:25

many implies gonna lines to tomorrow. For

1:17:28

even. More.

1:17:33

Some is. America.

1:17:35

Five Sorana. Need a massive game

1:17:37

as his. He. Might

1:17:40

say what? So where else where are

1:17:42

you looking for us in bed? I.

1:17:44

Think and a will run as on

1:17:47

the bench. can't get it is outstanding.

1:17:49

Gets out bad Duffy Jenkins the map

1:17:51

in all likelihood goes not an absolute

1:17:54

count each and England when three games

1:17:56

in mister twenty twenty four. how

1:17:58

depict I'll

1:18:00

tell you what

1:18:03

this made me think of when we went down I think it was 2004 the summer

1:18:12

of 2004 yeah I think it was

1:18:15

we went down to play the spring box and we

1:18:17

played them down there and

1:18:19

we were kind of in both games but we

1:18:21

lost both games and Jake White was the coach

1:18:24

at the time and the spring

1:18:26

box were coming to Dublin in the autumn

1:18:28

series and he was asked you know

1:18:30

who you know this exact you

1:18:32

know rope dope and how

1:18:34

many Irish players would get in in the team and

1:18:37

he said I wouldn't have any of the Irish players

1:18:39

legitimate thing to say if you're the

1:18:41

coach of the spring box and I

1:18:43

remember how passionate

1:18:46

we were before like I don't think I've

1:18:48

ever been as riled up before a game

1:18:50

I honestly whatever it hit and the way

1:18:52

he said it it just hit a nerve

1:18:54

and an emotion that meant

1:18:56

that and we know rugby

1:18:58

is not all about passion in the modern games certainly is

1:19:00

not about passion but it's got a big deal and plays

1:19:02

a big part and I think it's maybe it's up to

1:19:04

50% of what you need

1:19:07

to deliver performance and we

1:19:09

were we came out of the blocks like

1:19:13

so fired up like spilling blood yeah

1:19:15

and we beat them and

1:19:17

so I've just delivered the team's coach. Alex

1:19:21

Mitchell goes, Ben

1:19:23

Elgos, another couple

1:19:25

of games under the hill, Cullingham South has

1:19:27

a sniff. Your listenership is going

1:19:29

to go through the roof with all the England's

1:19:31

coaches are like you gotta listen to GBR this

1:19:33

week. Yeah exactly, that's 1523 maybe.

1:19:35

16 Englishmen. I'm

1:19:40

bringing it round, I'm trying to give this

1:19:42

a positivity. I love it, it's such a

1:19:44

it's you've got all the cards in green

1:19:47

you've got a Pontius chance for it for

1:19:49

England. What's the bookmakers 21

1:19:51

point start but it's coming in I think is it? Yeah it

1:19:53

was last week I think that's what 10 said. 12 is

1:19:56

it? You said

1:19:58

Welsby France. I

1:20:03

think France in a hole right now, if Jallibert,

1:20:05

I don't know how bad his knee is, if Jallibert

1:20:08

is gone, I don't know where they're going at 10, Donti's

1:20:13

gone, which gives he

1:20:15

was a real point of difference in the World

1:20:17

Cup, and he's going to build

1:20:19

up to the World Cup. Yeah

1:20:22

I think that young Welsh team

1:20:25

at the Principality Stadium will

1:20:28

have a little look about what's going on in

1:20:30

those boys in blue, and they will keep the

1:20:32

tempo high or game, and I think

1:20:34

they'll turn them over. They'll throw a bit of ball, that's what

1:20:36

they'll do. That's where they've had

1:20:38

their most success. I still

1:20:40

think it will be tricky with them,

1:20:43

but certainly not impossible. Interesting

1:20:45

one is Scotland, Italy. Go on then. I

1:20:48

think Scotland win and they should win, but is

1:20:51

there something there? I'll tell you, it'll

1:20:53

be the barometer for the Italian side.

1:20:56

My best punt this year was Italy-England

1:20:58

game, Italy half-time England full-time. I

1:21:01

could see that again. Really? Italy

1:21:03

half-time, Scotland full-time. Just

1:21:06

to get back to the point you were making about philosophy, England

1:21:08

sort of creating philosophy and then playing up to

1:21:11

it, are you seeing that with Wales? They

1:21:13

have sort of made a lot of noise about we're starting again here.

1:21:15

Are you seeing something about it? They've ripped the band-aid and gone. We've

1:21:18

got to. So if

1:21:21

you then pick up on an individual, I think they're

1:21:23

second round mentioned in terms of the Lions content. I

1:21:25

think there are three great second-rows and Dafy Jankes will

1:21:27

grow and grow and grow. Remember, he's 20 years old.

1:21:30

Jenkins, Beard and Rowlands, that's a point of difference.

1:21:34

The back row is outstanding. Wainwright,

1:21:36

Rafel, man is growing. He's 20 years

1:21:39

old, so he's alongside two

1:21:41

decent operators. Wainwright is a

1:21:43

throwback. You just think, how is he in the right place at

1:21:45

the right time? Just

1:21:48

awesome, the player. I think Thomas

1:21:51

Williams, I'd always, I've rated

1:21:53

him for Donkey's years. He's

1:21:56

not perfect, but he's an absolute scrapper. get

1:22:00

their game right. There's edge as you can

1:22:02

find but they're tough and niggly and high

1:22:04

elbows and iron knees and they're a couple

1:22:06

of units. I love Dyer's work

1:22:08

Ray. I think Winnet's come in and gone, punched

1:22:11

above his weight and has looked

1:22:13

confident. I mean you might say he didn't have a lot

1:22:15

of choice but he's looking at the back of the field

1:22:17

and he's taken it like we want to put fire out

1:22:19

with him and he's just moving around,

1:22:21

he's got some shape on him and Adams

1:22:24

can score some points. You sort of go through that

1:22:26

team and you go wow, you're

1:22:29

suddenly talking positively about a Welsh team but at

1:22:31

the start of the tour you think, Cracker, who

1:22:33

are these kids? And by having the

1:22:35

game time of 240 minutes together

1:22:37

and a decent 60 minutes

1:22:39

against England when it's like

1:22:41

we've got this, I think they're confident. I think you're

1:22:44

also seeing a mature coach

1:22:46

who is comfortable

1:22:48

in his own skin and totally protected. He's capable

1:22:50

of handling the flat. Totally protected. He

1:22:53

doesn't care. So he's gone

1:22:55

in, he's, and even

1:22:57

before the World Cup he got away with some

1:22:59

major players but he's totally stripped it out, gone

1:23:01

for a totally young side. He

1:23:03

said this is what we're going to do. He's stated this.

1:23:06

He's comfortable doing it and

1:23:09

it's the difference between maybe Borthwick

1:23:11

really pulling off the bandages you

1:23:13

said are pulling out the plaster

1:23:15

and Gatlin being comfortable doing it.

1:23:17

It's also the difference between coaching

1:23:20

Wales and England. It's different like

1:23:22

the media attention, the pressure

1:23:24

that comes with the expectation.

1:23:26

You're just given a little bit more. There's very

1:23:28

high expectations for Welsh rugby. We all know that.

1:23:31

There are fewer alternatives.

1:23:34

Exactly. There's more

1:23:36

understanding whereas the

1:23:38

problem with England is everybody's

1:23:40

got an opinion because you've got so

1:23:42

many players to choose from. In Ireland

1:23:45

there's never that big a controversy over

1:23:47

selection because here and

1:23:49

there around the edges a little bit that's

1:23:51

where teams will be criticized or coaches will

1:23:54

be criticized. Look at the end of Joe

1:23:56

Smith. It wasn't, Joe you've got the selection

1:23:58

totally right. If actually you're

1:24:00

not doing the right thing with the players

1:24:03

you have that's not the case you've got

1:24:05

two Conversations going side by

1:24:07

side. You're not doing the right thing and you're not doing

1:24:09

the route with the right players Very

1:24:12

interesting. That's why we love the six nations,

1:24:14

isn't it? Just before we finish It's time for our

1:24:16

Haykar six nations selector where we delve into the past

1:24:19

And we try to pick the greatest players to play

1:24:21

in the six nations. You'll love this Well, it's right

1:24:24

up your street Haykar only have the best quality check

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our relationship with Haykar this games all about great partnerships.

1:24:35

So our picks have to be made in units Then

1:24:38

look at me quizzically go with me on this you got to

1:24:40

pick on units. I'm thinking when did you sell out? Oh,

1:24:42

we sold out years ago, but I'm driving around in

1:24:45

a roller. So, you know works, isn't it? But

1:24:48

my Haykar We

1:24:52

are picking the back three today and they

1:24:54

all have to play together for the same nation Another

1:24:58

kicker Our team was nations

1:25:00

or pre six nations And

1:25:02

and we have to have a unit from each of the

1:25:04

countries Okay, so there are two positional

1:25:06

units left to fill the second row and the back

1:25:09

three We're gonna give you the back three for obvious

1:25:11

reasons. Well, are we doing it? You do actually make

1:25:13

quite a good second row partnership. So have you actually

1:25:15

are we doing this now? Yes, you're doing now Sit

1:25:17

up straight and concentrate so far. We've picked our front

1:25:19

row or back row our half

1:25:21

backs and our centers So the Cicero,

1:25:24

Giraldini and Castro Giovanni Great

1:25:26

for the after party. Yeah, he's an intense insurance.

1:25:28

They didn't win a lot but great unit hill

1:25:31

back to Lally. It was all back row Dupont

1:25:33

and tarmac were our half backs and I'm afraid

1:25:35

Darcy and the driscoll got in in the centers

1:25:37

But they've just seen should be hulking Six

1:25:42

from seven with 88% win rate. Sorry Gordon. You're out.

1:25:44

It's now Did

1:25:47

the 89% win rate not count no didn't know

1:25:49

tins I think wasn't able to vote for himself. Oh

1:25:53

So that means we can't have any of the following

1:25:55

Noel Watson Brown who won the Grand Slam in 2016

1:25:58

or Lucy Robinson and Cohen They

1:26:00

only started twice together, so you couldn't really have them either. In

1:26:02

Ireland, it could have been Hickey-Hawken Dempsey, 12 starts

1:26:05

together, 10 wins. You had some

1:26:07

good win ratios, didn't you? We'll get

1:26:09

that flashed up next time you're on the telly box. 83%

1:26:11

win ratio. Fitzgerald,

1:26:14

Bo and Carney won the 2009 Grand Slam. You

1:26:16

can't have them either. And for France,

1:26:18

Dominique, Clerk and Bruce, 0-4 Grand Slam.

1:26:21

Villier, Penno and Jamone with the 2022 Grand Slam.

1:26:25

What was the last one? Jamone, who else? Villier,

1:26:27

Penno and Jamone, 22 Grand Slam. Why

1:26:30

couldn't they have them? Because

1:26:32

we've already picked, you know, Driscoll and our centres.

1:26:34

Which means that you can't pick an Irish Back

1:26:36

3. Alright. Because we can't pick a

1:26:39

Irish Back 3. Or Scotland. So what's the Wales Back 3

1:26:41

I can pick? I'm going to give you the options now.

1:26:43

Adams, North and Williams, 2019 Grand Slam. They

1:26:45

could. North Cuthburn, half penny, two championships,

1:26:47

2012 Grand Slam and 2013, 11 from 14 wins. Shane

1:26:52

Williams, Mark Jones and Lee Byrne, 2008 Grand Slam.

1:26:55

Those are your Wales options. Do you know why I like

1:26:57

them? Do you know why I like them? Combined weight, probably

1:26:59

140 metres. Yeah, they were good. They were good. Mark Jones

1:27:01

made me look like Hercules. Yeah. Scotland,

1:27:03

you can have Lamb and Pass in a

1:27:05

shovel, Hugo Southwell. Highest win

1:27:07

percentage as a unit, four wins

1:27:09

from line starts. Tariq, are

1:27:12

you laughing? Don't laugh. Where did

1:27:14

the girl go? The whole time. You just mocked

1:27:16

a Scottish Back 3. I didn't mock a jock. You did? You

1:27:19

did. Cough. You sniggered. You

1:27:22

snodelled. Hog, Maitland and Van Der Merver, the 2021

1:27:24

Back 3 that won at Twickenham for the first

1:27:26

time since 1983. So North

1:27:28

Cuthburn, Harpenny, Adams North or Williams, Shane

1:27:31

Williams, Mark Jones and Lee Byrne, Lamb

1:27:33

and Pass in a shovel, Hugo Southwell or Hog, Maitland

1:27:35

and Van Der Merver. So do

1:27:38

we need a goal kicker? Who's at 10? And

1:27:40

Smack. Right, in which case we need to... You've got

1:27:42

to pick... We're picking a team, considering the other people

1:27:45

who've already picked that 9 and 10, you've

1:27:48

got to have a goal kicker. Yeah, half penny. So you've

1:27:50

got to pick the back three with Harpenny. Yeah. You're

1:27:52

picking a goal kicker and you're saying it doesn't matter which score tries.

1:27:55

I might go Adams North Williams. Are

1:27:58

you not giving in to Matt the chance to kick... girls no

1:28:01

because okay half

1:28:03

penny wouldn't miss after the show I'm

1:28:05

tonight could miss yeah half penny woman's

1:28:08

although Lee Byrne was real foreigners a fullback wasn't

1:28:10

he yeah he was great player you

1:28:13

make the decision are you

1:28:15

gonna you know if I

1:28:18

want ballers and I play

1:28:20

Adam I'd go the Williams one out

1:28:22

of North Williams yeah let's go ballers

1:28:25

let's not buy wondering and

1:28:27

that means we're gonna have a Scottish second row pairing should

1:28:30

probably be the great brothers great brothers yeah

1:28:32

we might flex the rules on that actually

1:28:34

stay tuned for next week I don't know

1:28:36

but it's it's a lovely family affair and

1:28:38

that's what we're all about well done Adams

1:28:40

North and Williams they go into our team

1:28:42

a lot of tries between those three yeah

1:28:45

and Shane we left you know we got Shane's one in and

1:28:47

we got Shane in do

1:28:49

you want to late change yeah kind

1:28:51

of can't have Shane Shane with half

1:28:53

penny and no Shane with Mark Jones

1:28:55

and Lee Byrne 2008 grand slam oh

1:28:57

yeah it's tricky oh Shane not with

1:28:59

the others no that

1:29:01

was Liam Williams 2019 grand slam yeah or

1:29:03

you can have North Cuthbert and half penny from

1:29:06

2012 2013 England game as well that's the highest what water

1:29:12

might what 31 3 31 3 North Cuthbert half

1:29:14

penny the only battery

1:29:16

twin to see a deal that's gotta be it and

1:29:18

then you go keep it on the go so it's

1:29:20

the right god Adams and Liam Williams you are scrapped

1:29:23

but George you go through to the next round alongside

1:29:25

Alex Cuthbert and Lee half penny so let's hear come

1:29:27

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1:29:39

you've dug yourself a deep enough hole

1:29:41

we're gonna finish with a prediction please

1:29:43

so we'll do Italy Scotland first of

1:29:46

all who

1:29:48

and by how many it's going

1:29:50

by for maybe slightly

1:29:52

more in the end Scotland I think

1:29:54

okay Scotland by 10 England

1:29:56

the bonus point you were saying yeah it's going

1:29:58

for the So that one

1:30:01

available Saturday afternoon 215 ITV and Virgin

1:30:03

Media Saturday at 445

1:30:05

ITV and RT England against Ireland Shane,

1:30:07

please. I think it could be Ireland

1:30:10

by Wilgreenwood,

1:30:15

I think I'd revise that down to three

1:30:20

Why I just don't give you caveat options

1:30:22

here so you can revise it down to

1:30:24

three because And

1:30:26

yeah big wins and trickling don't happen that

1:30:29

often France round four last year would

1:30:33

So bad wasn't it that

1:30:36

is a hangover as well in this round 2024

1:30:40

year of positive through got one big game in

1:30:42

us and

1:30:44

I think it's competitive to 60 minutes That's

1:30:51

his the question you asked me but I've I have

1:30:55

I by England

1:30:58

by one just for the sake of it and Wales

1:31:00

against France Sunday afternoon three o'clock BBC

1:31:03

and RT aim of the weekend no

1:31:05

defense For is a roof

1:31:07

on 44 37 in a jamboree the whales

1:31:09

win Swallier

1:31:13

roast beef on that a lot. We've

1:31:15

never had this most consideration ever Can I

1:31:17

just say any chance again any of these

1:31:19

questions with more than like two seconds notice

1:31:21

during the pods? So you're actually

1:31:24

consider it's a rugby pod The

1:31:39

next week and also you made a very compelling case

1:31:42

there for for Wales, I think that's what's thrown me

1:31:44

and Again, it's like

1:31:46

my own own. I always I always

1:31:48

default to France winning, but

1:31:51

You convinced me Whales by

1:31:57

Seven seven game

1:32:00

this weekend as well England against Ireland

1:32:02

in the legends fixture and would you

1:32:04

believe it? No your

1:32:06

old mate tends to still trucking it up and

1:32:09

it's incredible he loves it Friday night the

1:32:11

game is at the stoop

1:32:14

and if you fancy going you get tickets at quince.co.uk

1:32:16

you fancy that you're quite fit you're still sort of

1:32:18

live and busting a gun aren't you? Yeah I run

1:32:20

around I just I've had too many

1:32:22

that too many operations too expensive to

1:32:25

put yourself back together that view and

1:32:27

a doctor saying count to ten and never getting

1:32:29

past four I've said I don't I'm not

1:32:31

that keen at all. What was your last one?

1:32:35

Shoulder. Six of them so I

1:32:37

just yeah no

1:32:39

interest. I hurt my

1:32:42

back yesterday Oh tried

1:32:44

to frighten my child in the park that's

1:32:46

the level of fitness that I have at the moment

1:32:51

And on that bombshell. Talk us through it how? I

1:32:53

was hiding behind a bush he was coming around I was hiding behind

1:32:55

a bush I left it ahhh!

1:32:59

Stretched out of the playground. Yeah which

1:33:01

counts were you in Bermondsey? No no

1:33:03

I was in Victoria Park. If

1:33:06

anyone's got footage please send it in. Isn't

1:33:09

that a lovely juxtaposition to the glory of scoring

1:33:11

a match winning try of the 79th year at

1:33:14

the top right corner of Twickenham It's a long

1:33:16

way down. Getting wheelchair down to the park from

1:33:18

the soft play area Well

1:33:21

no no and on that bombshell it's

1:33:23

been really good fun. I've loved the history sorry for

1:33:25

the surprises on the prediction. We

1:33:28

like to yell a lot of reviews. Very interesting

1:33:30

It is a punches chance though isn't it?

1:33:32

Could it? Yeah yeah look so you know

1:33:34

how you never back against France this is why I

1:33:37

find it difficult. I just

1:33:39

go it's Twickenham I just

1:33:42

how can we keep going in the game's

1:33:44

second favorites at Twickenham and I just feel

1:33:46

there's a massive game there's a massive game

1:33:49

in there that can there's absolutely

1:33:52

a chance absolutely there's a chance.

1:33:54

Great I have a feeling I'm going to be go

1:33:56

back if it can

1:33:59

get weird. Yeah yeah We'll put you for next Monday.

1:34:01

If we're in the wind, no. If we're in the

1:34:03

wind, it's like... Yeah, we'll just replay all the clips

1:34:05

that you've... I'll have to talk to... The next phone

1:34:07

cast will be talking to you the last weekend as

1:34:09

a therapy. Well done fellas. Great

1:34:11

fun. Thank you very much indeed. We have been the

1:34:13

good, the bad and the rugby in partnership, as always,

1:34:16

with our very good friends at Continental Tires. That's, in

1:34:18

fact, provided by Oval Insights. We're a folding pocket production.

1:34:21

This episode was produced by Tom Edwards. Enjoy all that's

1:34:23

to come this weekend and we'll see you for a

1:34:25

debrief next week. You've

1:34:32

been listening to The Good, The

1:34:35

Bad, and the

1:34:37

Rugby with Alex Payne, James

1:34:39

Haskell and Mike Tyndall. Thanks

1:34:42

for listening.