0:00

Celebrity voice impersonation, not an endorsement. Why go

0:02

to a a single furniture store when you

0:05

can go to Big Sandy Superstore?

0:07

Shop and America's top

0:10

five mattress brands, plus nectar and

0:12

purple. and choose from over in-stock appliances

0:14

in stock appliances from the top brands

0:16

at the guaranteed lowest price. or furnish

0:19

the room of your dreams with

0:21

a large selection of American-built furniture.

0:23

With financing plans for just about

0:25

anyone, there's nowhere else quite

0:27

like it. Big Sandy

0:29

Superstore. Into

0:37

the final moments, Alex Payne trying to

0:39

keep this side going forward. Haskell takes

0:41

it on now with just relentless chat

0:43

largely about himself. And there's Tindall to

0:46

add the finishing touch of glamour and

0:48

world cup-winning stories. And a slightly sideways

0:50

nose. That is how you podcast. A

0:52

dominant display by the good, the bad

0:55

and the rugby. Hello

0:58

and welcome to the good, the bad and

1:00

the rugby brought to you by Continental Tires.

1:02

Yes, this is not Alex's voice. It's a very

1:04

foreign accent if you're not used to it.

1:06

I know it takes a lot to get

1:08

used to. It's my

1:10

pleasure to step in this week and

1:12

be joined by Bob Skinsale. It's

1:14

a little reunion. The last time I saw you,

1:17

the Springboks went on to beat the All Blacks

1:19

in a very triumphant fashion. A

1:21

twig in them and you saw it all

1:23

coming. Well, I don't know if I

1:25

saw it all coming, but I certainly was confident

1:27

and excited. It

1:29

was all pre-tournament and it was, I

1:32

think it was a celebration. It was still warm

1:34

enough for us all to feel our fingers and

1:36

our toes. So it

1:39

was a good time. It was certainly a

1:41

good weekend and some interesting rugby that started

1:43

to be played even then. Well,

1:45

the boys, Payne and Haskins, they're

1:48

all off on the hollybobs, as they say

1:50

around here. It's a word I've learned recently.

1:54

Well, the Southern Hemisphere rights are

1:56

in the building in a big way and we are

1:58

joined by someone in another. building was heating

2:00

we hope for his sake. The

2:03

two-time Rugby World Cup winner,

2:05

the brand new man in

2:07

charge at Leinster. He's

2:09

a bit like the Heston Blumenthal

2:12

of rugby coaches, a bit like

2:14

Q. He likes a gadget or

2:16

two. He's always cooking away at

2:18

some interesting solutions and innovative

2:20

new ways of doing things. Joc,

2:23

Nino, but how's Dublin tonight? Good

2:25

day. Good evening the two

2:28

of you. Now Dublin is nice

2:31

and chilly. It's definitely different than

2:33

a 30-degree Cape Town that I can tell

2:36

you. Joc, I've got to say, I mean

2:38

you've been around the country celebrating and it

2:40

looked like in a very joyous

2:42

fashion. Have

2:45

the Irish embraced that and nestled you

2:47

in for a cold Guinness to celebrate

2:49

the end of the World Cup or

2:51

are you still breaking some new relationships

2:54

there? No, no

2:56

Bob. I must say the people here,

2:58

you know the Irish. They are phenomenal

3:00

people enough and luckily I had

3:03

this stint with Rossi in 2016-17, you

3:06

know, so we're quite familiar with the

3:10

culture over here. So I've

3:12

had some good points already.

3:15

You know, everybody is, you must go through this

3:17

one, you must go through this pub, that pub

3:20

is a good guinea so I've had a few

3:22

good guineas this year. But

3:24

since the end of October you could honestly

3:26

not have stopped yet because you've gone

3:28

from the frying pan into the fire

3:30

it seems. A great big celebration tour in

3:32

South Africa a few days off straight

3:35

into Dublin and the pub scene. Yeah,

3:39

no, no, just it's been

3:41

busy over there.

3:43

Obviously after the World Cup I

3:46

was in a,

3:48

there was a handover obviously

3:51

between myself and Saru

3:54

in terms of the IP and all that

3:57

stuff and some commitments

3:59

with with sponsors and talks and

4:01

stuff that I had to do. And

4:03

then as soon as that was done,

4:06

I was keen to get over to

4:08

this side. I think

4:10

it's going to be a nice challenge

4:12

with Leinster and I know it's

4:15

going to take some time for me to settle in. So

4:18

it did a way back with Munster

4:21

and when I went back to South

4:23

Africa, it took some time to get

4:26

settled and to get into the way of

4:29

how we want to

4:31

do things in the defence and it takes time

4:33

to adjust to it. So I thought rather earlier

4:36

than later. So now just

4:38

give us an idea of how much

4:40

moving has had to happen. Are

4:42

the kids there, did the pets come with,

4:45

have you moved pot plants, the whole caboodle

4:47

or was it just you in a suitcase?

4:51

Well, initially it was just me in

4:53

a suitcase. So I arrived the day

4:55

of the Munster game, Munster

4:57

Leinster games. I missed that game, I was

4:59

on the flight. And then I

5:01

started a week of connect with

5:04

a team, just getting to

5:06

know everyone. My wife arrived the

5:08

Wednesday or the Thursday of that

5:10

connect week and the kids the

5:12

week after. So they were finishing

5:15

up the exams and stuff like

5:17

that. But the whole family is

5:19

dogs. The dog came first, so the

5:21

dog is with me. So in

5:24

our family, the

5:26

picking order is the dog, then the

5:28

children and then probably me. So but

5:30

at least I've got a friend. I've

5:33

got a friend here. So it's not

5:35

a lie. One more than zero, which

5:37

is great. Almeri obviously runs a really

5:39

tight ship there. The dogs travel, the

5:42

books alongside everyone else's. As someone who

5:44

has moved pets across hemispheres, I can

5:46

highly recommend doing it, but also

5:48

finding someone else to help you with it

5:50

because it is a dizzying amount of admin.

5:52

Back to the rugby, speaking of dizzying amount

5:54

of rugby and admin, after

5:57

you win a rugby World Cup, how

5:59

does that work? work, you've now done it twice, so

6:01

you could probably write the book on it.

6:03

Obviously the game was on Saturday.

6:05

Then the Sunday was almost at

6:07

the rugby awards that evening, so

6:09

a couple of years during the

6:14

day, and with the World

6:16

Cup and the families and all that,

6:19

that happened on the Sunday. And

6:21

then the Sunday evening the rugby awards, and

6:24

we flew out the next day. Different

6:27

groups, it depends

6:29

on how, because obviously World Rugby

6:31

doesn't know who's going to play in the final,

6:33

and who's going to be on the last

6:36

flights out of the hosting country.

6:40

So in Japan the team was

6:42

split up in probably five

6:44

or six or seven different flights. But

6:47

this time around the team went with one flight,

6:50

and then the management went with another one.

6:53

And then you arrive and it's chaos,

6:56

it's a warm

6:58

number full of people. It's phenomenal, the

7:00

energy that we got from the people

7:03

when we arrived back in South Africa. And

7:05

then it's a trophy tour, and

7:08

sponsors, and you pay

7:10

back. Basically, because the

7:12

World Cup actually belongs to them, so

7:15

you pay it back as much as you can.

7:17

It's quite busy, and you stand on the bus

7:19

and you wave and you give energy, and it's

7:23

amazing to see the people next

7:25

to the side of the road and running with the bus. Even

7:28

the people, or the families that were with us on

7:30

the bus. As

7:34

you see the people and the excitement in

7:36

the people and how emotional the people are, it

7:39

gets to you. A

7:42

lot of the family members that were on

7:44

the bus started crying because you can't, you

7:47

can't explain it. But it's

7:49

just an unbelievably humbling experience,

7:51

and it's very emotional actually.

7:54

Why do you think that is? Why

7:56

was there such an outpouring of energy

7:59

and emotion? at the

8:01

Springboks, especially this time around?

8:04

I don't know. I think

8:09

in 2019, I think people, there

8:12

was hope that you would have been

8:14

successful. But I think this time

8:16

around there was a lot of expectation, especially on

8:18

the players. There was a lot of, I mean,

8:20

you've won it last time, and you

8:23

only lost two players. You only lost Beast and

8:25

Foncho Lo and Sculpt,

8:27

Britz, that actually didn't

8:29

continue playing rugby. So

8:31

the whole team that

8:33

won it in 2019 was

8:35

available again. So I think there was a

8:37

lot of expectations on the players and from

8:39

the fans. And

8:42

then obviously I think the

8:44

one-point wins in the quarter semis in the

8:46

finals that it created. There

8:50

was a lot of tension, if I can put

8:52

it like that. I think there was a lot

8:54

of tension and emotion in the fans.

8:58

And then obviously, with

9:00

expectations. And I think when

9:03

the team delivered, I think the

9:05

people were just crazy. They were

9:08

absolutely crazy. Certainly

9:10

was amazing. I mean, my

9:13

family, Jock, as you know, we

9:16

all come from passionate rugby households. I

9:19

was from Omar, my

9:22

mum, to my wife, to my little

9:24

son. And I was just commentating, and I

9:26

kept coming back to the

9:28

UK on a Eurostar early on a Monday

9:31

morning. And they'd still be emotional. And cross

9:33

with me because we'd made

9:35

them so emotional for the day. I

9:37

can imagine it's times 10,000 for you.

9:41

But it certainly was one of the

9:43

things that carried it for the length

9:45

of the tournament, you write, was how

9:47

close and how emotionally charged

9:49

those games were. Which one was

9:52

the worst for you? Because I

9:54

definitely think the English one was the

9:56

worst for me. As a fan, that

9:58

game was torqued. torture.

10:00

I mean all three of them were a lot. But

10:03

that one was, Bob, which one was your talk?

10:05

Yeah, I'm just thinking through that now and recalling

10:08

all three. I mean, I think the England

10:10

game definitely, we were a

10:12

commentary panel and we were close friends and

10:14

we were competitive and that kind of thing.

10:16

But definitely in that environment

10:19

was incredibly emotionally charged as

10:21

well. I found the French at

10:24

one point when really exciting, really

10:26

fun, really like there

10:29

was invigorating speed and

10:31

really exhilarating. And most people who

10:33

watched that went, geez, what a

10:35

game that was. But the England

10:37

one felt like a lot

10:39

of really hard work watching on. The

10:42

final, I feel like I anticipated it

10:44

almost. Maybe we were just, we'd gone

10:46

through two weeks of that and we'd

10:48

kind of been preparing ourselves for more

10:50

of the same. But

10:52

I'm always fascinated by how you guys reflect on

10:54

it once you've had a few weeks to get

10:56

over the intense stress and probably

10:59

the exhaustion of it all. No,

11:01

definitely. Elmer, definitely the England game.

11:03

Yes, that's the final. I'll tell

11:05

you, I think we

11:08

saw the French game was a, it

11:10

was a beautiful evening. So it,

11:15

the stage was laid

11:17

to have a track at each other

11:19

with Boilermans. So they scored three tries,

11:21

we scored four tries, seven tries was

11:24

scored in that quarterfinal.

11:28

So the game was set up for a

11:30

thriller. And I think even a

11:32

quarterfinal against Ireland, New Zealand was

11:34

also a thriller. But then for

11:37

the semifinal, we actually, in

11:39

the week when we looked at the

11:41

weather, the weather, it showed that there

11:43

was rain coming, but it was only

11:45

going to hit us probably the last

11:47

10 or 15 minutes of the game.

11:49

That's what we thought

11:52

was going to happen on the Monday

11:54

when we started preparing for that semifinal.

11:56

But then, yes, the rain came through

11:58

a lot quicker. So we

12:01

actually wanted to play a more

12:03

expansive game against England, if I

12:05

can say it like that. If

12:07

you think what we did in 2022 when we

12:09

played the Matricana, so there was a lot more.

12:16

We used the ball a lot

12:18

more. But then with the rain, we

12:20

had to change our strategy and

12:22

our plans, obviously, in the

12:24

game. But

12:26

you even started like that because you

12:29

had those long wired passes in the first

12:31

three, four minutes, and then suddenly

12:33

you'd done that twice and the rain came down.

12:35

You almost had to shut up shop. Yeah,

12:38

and that was a

12:41

stressful thing because we

12:43

felt that we struggled, even in the 2019 final, we

12:46

struggled to get our balls going against England. So

12:49

we had to revert back to that. So

12:52

yeah, I also think in that game, we

12:54

had to find solutions on the run. And

12:57

that's why that was such a stressful game for us, for

12:59

me personally. I

13:02

mean, if you think about it, we had to

13:05

make a substitution with Marnie early on. You

13:07

know, it was raining. It wasn't probably, I won't

13:09

say it doesn't suit him and he can't play

13:11

in the rain. But Andre playing

13:14

his rugby and applying his trade in the

13:16

north, he's a lot more used to

13:18

the circumstances. So that was quite emotional and

13:20

a big call that we had to make

13:23

early on in the game, which

13:25

is not always nice. But

13:28

you have to put the team first

13:30

and say, yeah, that was by

13:32

far the most stressful one. A

13:34

final is always going to be, I

13:36

mean, even in the 2019 final, if

13:38

you look at the end score, it looks big,

13:41

you know. But the off time we

13:43

went in, it was 12-6 at one stage. I

13:47

think it was 18-12. And

13:49

then we scored a try. So

13:51

we actually only got control, I would say,

13:53

in the 2019 game. We only got

13:56

control probably from minute 65 onwards. between

14:01

a big squad, that's when we got a

14:03

little bit of control and breathing space and

14:06

then obviously England, the time was running out,

14:08

they had to chase the game which gave

14:10

us another opportunity to score. But luckily it

14:12

worked out at the end of the day.

14:15

Yeah, and now we can smile about it but it

14:17

was nothing to smile about in the moment.

14:20

I want to go back to that

14:22

decision about sending on Andre and Mani

14:24

but also there were so many other

14:26

really big moments at this tournament. Your

14:30

biggest intervention, the biggest decision

14:32

that now in hindsight you

14:34

can look back on and go, I'm

14:37

glad I took this decision. We'd

14:41

obviously like to look behind the scenes so I

14:43

don't know how many of those decisions were 50%

14:45

Rasi and 50% Jock

14:48

either but we'd love to hear

14:50

your personal take on a moment

14:52

where you went, this is what

14:54

we're going to do now and it either

14:57

worked or it helped set things

14:59

in motion. Yeah, I think in

15:02

terms of decisions made, we

15:05

always like, we

15:07

are very transparent coaching groups

15:09

so we get everybody's input

15:12

and that's why I think it was in the

15:14

England game where we all adult around

15:18

Rasi was sitting on the edge. So

15:20

myself and Rasi is in communication with

15:22

each other and then next

15:26

to me is Felix who ran the attack and

15:28

then we've got Dawn and

15:31

Dion and them sitting in the front.

15:33

So we had to

15:35

make changes because we couldn't get

15:38

our foot held in that game. So

15:40

everybody in and because now are we

15:42

going to bring Kwa Ha on, okay

15:44

but will the line outs function? So

15:46

Dion had to give input in that,

15:48

will the scrums function? So I

15:51

would say that the decision

15:53

making is always a collective

15:55

in terms of, let's say

15:58

we bring Andre on. Stokko,

16:01

will you be happy with the kicking

16:04

game? How will that affect you? So

16:09

the decision making, I would say, is a

16:11

group. When I speak

16:14

to people about you and Rasi,

16:17

one of the first things that people always ask

16:19

is when did they start working together? Where

16:23

did this come from? Because for the rest

16:25

of the northern hemisphere it feels like this

16:27

revolution in South Africa and Iraq happened overnight.

16:29

At one point we were losing to Italy

16:31

and the next thing these two guys are

16:33

on the scene and here they are just

16:35

absolutely cruising and the plane's taking off. But

16:38

obviously no success happens overnight and no partnership

16:40

like this was forged in the last two

16:42

years. And then

16:44

when I say, I heard a story that the two of

16:46

you met back in 1991

16:48

on a military base in

16:50

Bloemfontein, which is the least

16:53

fancy place I can probably imagine in the

16:55

entire world. Because I lived

16:57

next door to that military base when

16:59

I was a child. It's such a

17:02

long journey that you have been on.

17:04

And whereas Rasi is a former springbok

17:07

and a player who's represented his country at

17:09

the highest level could probably have foreseen some

17:12

sort of version of this future in his

17:14

wildest dreams. Take me

17:16

back to whether the Jockney

17:18

Norbert in 1991 would

17:21

have ever foreseen this journey

17:23

and this road and these

17:25

high moments in his life. No, never. Yes, in 1991 we

17:27

met in the army. So

17:33

we both were in the School

17:36

of Armor together. So

17:38

we went in the same battalion, but I

17:41

was in one special services battalion and Rasi

17:43

was in the School of Armor. But

17:46

we had a mutual friend, so a guy

17:48

that was friends with me at school,

17:51

he was Rasi's roommate. So that's how I

17:53

met Rasi the first time was in the

17:56

army. And then obviously I went, Rasi stayed in

17:58

the army. a

18:00

little bit on in the army. I went

18:02

back, I went to study, became a physio

18:04

and then when Razi started playing for the

18:06

Schimler's, I was a Schimler's physio. So that's

18:09

where we actually joined up

18:11

again, he as a player and myself

18:13

as a physio. And then

18:15

obviously started working together from a coaching

18:17

perspective, was in 2005 when Razi took

18:19

over head coach of

18:23

the cheaters from Pierre Kleiner. I was the

18:26

I was physio

18:29

then and transitioning

18:31

into strength and conditioning

18:33

because he kind of,

18:35

we very could

18:40

see he was the strength and conditioning coach

18:42

at the cheaters back then. He even joined

18:45

Jake White with a string box. So

18:47

there was like this void there and

18:49

we couldn't, Razi felt that he couldn't

18:51

get the right guy. So he asked

18:53

me if I would go over to

18:55

that side of things.

18:58

So I did a little bit of study in

19:00

that and then I went in the

19:02

agency. So that's where we started working together.

19:04

So from a management point

19:06

of view from 2005, so

19:09

we almost 30 years, know each

19:11

other for 30 years and working

19:13

together on a management

19:15

level from 2005. And obviously my roles

19:18

have changed. I was first a physio

19:20

then, agency assistant coach

19:22

and then head coach. But now I

19:24

never foreseen this. Well,

19:26

in my mind, just being a

19:29

physio with a sports team was my

19:31

wildest dream, if I can put it

19:33

like that. And

19:35

just to be with a physio

19:38

for the cheaters would have been

19:40

good for me. So I never

19:42

in my wildest dreams thought that

19:45

things would turn out like they

19:48

turned up. So yeah, unbelievable. Unbelievable,

19:51

right. That's for, I

19:54

hope I'm fucking getting another couple of

19:56

years of that. They will, they certainly will

19:58

be lots more. I'm not

20:00

going to let you get away with only that because

20:02

what he doesn't tell you is that he

20:04

was the hardest working physio you've ever seen in your

20:07

entire life because I was a guy who rugby was

20:09

interesting but not all absorbing for me. So I

20:12

would go and sit to the physios when Jock

20:14

was the head physio at the Cats and

20:16

listen because up until 12 o'clock

20:19

midnight he'd be literally looking after

20:21

players. I remember Marco Vencell came

20:23

there and chatted the backs

20:26

out of everybody. He could talk more than anyone

20:28

else and then you used to roll your eyes

20:30

but still because you were working on the other

20:32

players we'd be talking and I think that ingrained

20:34

love of the game and the players etc. That

20:36

year Russ he did hurt his

20:38

Achilles, Jock. I think he hurt his Achilles

20:40

or cough or something

20:42

like that. Oh it was his foot, that's

20:44

right. It

20:47

was something that stopped him playing. That

20:49

stopped him playing. It was literally the

20:52

last season and he started with the

20:54

Cats and tried and went through the

20:56

pre-season and then wasn't able to

20:58

make it and then he got the job to

21:00

go across to the

21:03

cheetahs at that stage and almost transitioned

21:05

straight away. It didn't take him long

21:07

to have signalling on the roof and

21:11

that's come a long way as well but I

21:13

mean what an amazing ode to the relationship between

21:15

them. The lights

21:17

on the roof, everyone who

21:19

knew and watched. Those were the

21:21

aeroplane signal batons and now it's moved

21:23

to the lights. I love that.

21:28

The fact that you went to the military is

21:30

a really interesting one for me because you were

21:32

a pretty promising athlete at school, played a bit

21:34

of rugby, went to Grey College which is a

21:36

springbok factory, didn't become a springbok or play high

21:39

level rugby yourself. You could have had, and

21:42

I was explaining this to our producer Tom

21:44

Edwards, in the South African context if you're

21:46

a physiotherapist you could have

21:48

a very comfortable, very quiet

21:51

but very well set up life and

21:53

you could dabble with being the cheetahs

21:55

physiotherapist here and there if rugby really

21:57

gave you a thrill. But there

21:59

is a very... vision of your life that could have

22:01

gone very quietly and under the radar and you

22:03

could have had all the bottles of red wine

22:05

that you would have loved in your life and

22:08

no one would have ever stopped you on the street

22:10

or tell your kids what they thought of how you

22:12

do your job or invade your

22:14

privacy in the way that South Africans do because

22:16

now we own you. This

22:19

is a very prominent position to

22:22

be in and it must

22:24

have been a journey that in the

22:26

beginning you were probably not completely sure

22:28

of was there a point at any

22:30

point where you looked at this and went

22:33

it's actually asking quite a bit for me there

22:36

is this whole other parallel existence I could have

22:38

that could have been nice and quiet. When I started

22:40

going into the coaching side of things so

22:42

I did the physical side and the

22:45

agency side I really enjoyed that I really

22:47

enjoyed working with the players and working with

22:50

the players on the field I really enjoyed

22:52

that I love coaching it gives you a

22:55

buzz like nothing else and

22:58

so and when I became

23:00

when Rasi actually suggested that

23:02

I go over and start

23:04

it maybe the fence coach

23:06

I mean the transition sounds now crazy I

23:09

mean how do you go from physiotherapy

23:11

to the fence coach but way back

23:13

in those days they wasn't the fence

23:15

coaches I'm talking now 2004-2005 it was

23:17

the fence coaches in league yeah Bob

23:22

and that they started moving into

23:24

rugby but so the transition was

23:26

easy I could say anything to

23:29

the players because they didn't have

23:31

a backdrop of the fence coach

23:33

at school that no that we

23:35

challenged you they were they were

23:38

just doing well so they were just blank

23:40

canvas so that's how I got

23:42

into the coaching yes but I enjoyed that I

23:44

enjoyed the technical part of things I love the

23:46

the cheese game in it and

23:50

and so so yeah you

23:52

were asking in a in

23:54

a in a

23:56

from a from a parallel point of

23:58

view or would I I

24:00

didn't envision that it would become like

24:02

this. And I must

24:05

say that the assistant coach part is awesome

24:08

because the head coach part was something that

24:10

I had to get used to and you

24:12

would know, I mean, we spoke about it

24:17

when the British and Irish line theory, it

24:20

was something for me to get used to, especially

24:22

the media and all that. I

24:25

love being private and to

24:27

do, to work for the players

24:30

and be there in the cold face of winning

24:32

or losing again, but you're

24:34

not in the public. So,

24:37

and I guess you get used to that. I

24:39

won't say I'm good at it,

24:41

but I got more used to it at

24:44

the end. But

24:47

your question is, do I sometimes think I

24:49

could have had it in

24:51

a lot more safer? I

24:54

wouldn't want a different Elmer. Yes,

24:56

I enjoy challenge. I really, really enjoyed

24:58

challenge. And that's why I think probably

25:01

physio was awesome, but then when the

25:03

tennis game, listen, you can, what

25:06

about stress and conditioning? I

25:08

like to challenge myself with

25:10

something new, and

25:13

then the defense stuff, they did a

25:15

job where you came to try and

25:18

go into a defense coaching role. Yes,

25:20

I will grab it with both hands.

25:22

So I think that's just my personality.

25:24

I like to challenge. And

25:27

if you can, not master

25:30

it, but if you can, yeah, I like

25:32

to challenge. Like not getting used to it,

25:34

and settle it. Jacques,

25:36

there was a, so to segue

25:38

on to something else we want to talk about, but

25:40

you mentioned the league coaches coming across, and I'm thinking

25:42

off the top of my head, obviously

25:47

Andy Farrell, in terms of a guy who

25:49

played league, he also played union, but understanding

25:51

the league coaching. Liz Kiss is another one,

25:53

David Nisifora, and we've seen

25:55

them have fantastic roles around rugby

25:58

union. Coaches

26:01

have moved around. Now

26:03

there's a big question. Are players going

26:05

to be more allowed to move around?

26:07

You are seeing probably now for the

26:09

first time at the coal face, you

26:12

are seeing rugby at the provincial level

26:14

because for the last eight

26:16

years or seven years you've been one

26:19

level above that. South African players being

26:21

allowed to move around, do you think that's going

26:23

to be healthier for our game

26:25

and is there a way we can manage it

26:27

that benefits everybody? I

26:30

think for South Africa

26:32

and I'm not sure,

26:35

I can't talk for other unions and

26:37

other countries but for us I just

26:39

think to

26:41

allow our players to play abroad and

26:43

then still selecting. Is that what you

26:45

mean? That sort of thing I'm saying

26:47

is it something that

26:50

you believe that should be good for them to still

26:52

be selected for throwing balls? Yeah I

26:55

think so Bob because I don't

26:57

think we have the currency to

26:59

power up, we have the monetary

27:01

strength to power players. The

27:03

value that they

27:05

are valued at, you know, so from

27:07

a monetary point of view. And

27:10

I think if you look at the

27:13

squad that it took, I think

27:15

half, it's half-half, about

27:18

sixteen, let's say fifteen or sixteen of

27:20

the players are playing, applying this trade

27:22

abroad and fifteen sixteen applied to trade

27:24

in South Africa and those

27:27

guys that play abroad, I

27:30

don't know what their salary bill is but I

27:32

mean if they were in South Africa there's nowhere

27:34

we would be able to pay them. But

27:37

I do think it's good for us

27:39

that they go abroad, they play there and

27:42

then you can still select if they're

27:44

good enough and if they're relevant enough

27:46

you can still select them for South

27:48

Africa. I think that really

27:51

helped us win two World Cups

27:54

and it works for

27:56

us because if you think about it, if

27:58

you just think at LOPs. So

28:00

we had Augie, the locks that

28:02

played in the World Cup. So

28:06

Jivin is with the Sharks, but he was also

28:08

abroad in 2019. Then

28:10

you have Fraunto Mostep is

28:12

abroad. You have

28:14

Arce was abroad. John Plank

28:16

is abroad. And

28:19

Marvin Ori was at home. He

28:22

played with the Stormers. So that, if

28:24

all of them stayed in South Africa,

28:27

I think they wouldn't have been the

28:29

North Kears and the young guys

28:31

coming through now because they would have

28:33

been block fighting. So then moving on,

28:36

you can, now you get in the

28:38

URC, you get the new guys

28:40

that are playing in the URC. So you

28:42

actually, where you maybe would have had, let's

28:45

say two or three per union,

28:48

and you have the four URC teams, you

28:51

would have had only half of the amount

28:54

of locks that are currently, that you can

28:56

select on. To choose from. Just because guys

28:58

are, yeah, yeah. So it

29:00

broadens your guys'

29:03

exposure to top rugby. So

29:09

I think it's a good thing for us. In

29:11

anything that you do or that South Africa does,

29:13

gets judged as an unfair advantage from the outside

29:15

in, but from the inside out, I have to

29:17

say, as a South African, with

29:20

currency measures and all those kind of things, it's amazing

29:22

to be able to see so many young players

29:24

come through either their local provinces or

29:26

be able to play their trade internationally.

29:28

And we've even had a couple of

29:31

players who have made peace with the

29:33

fact that, you know, four years in

29:35

a foreign country, and they're probably

29:37

not gonna get a chance to go back and

29:39

they can't upstage another player in their position, but

29:42

they're good enough to play rugby internationally and they

29:44

make a different pathway for themselves and that's a

29:46

positive. It's gotta be a positive. I think

29:48

that if I can, in my

29:50

professional career, go and

29:52

play my trade, as I've done,

29:55

in a different geological location, because

29:57

there is a different opportunity there

29:59

that'll challenge. and grow and encourage

30:01

me to test myself. And

30:04

that's socially acceptable. I

30:06

feel like as a professional athlete, you

30:08

should be given every opportunity to go

30:10

test, learn, develop, experience, and also just

30:13

grow as a person, because there's so

30:15

much of that growth that happens when

30:17

you're taken outside of your

30:19

safe little space in other

30:22

environments, learning other languages, but also

30:24

just experiencing other cultures first-hand. And

30:26

this is a really contentious issue,

30:28

but from a coaching perspective, what

30:31

makes it harder when half

30:33

your crop are plying their

30:36

trade overseas? Is there, it's

30:38

more of a headache getting them released, getting

30:40

them available, getting them free at all of

30:43

the right times, but are there other complications

30:45

here that we're being naive to? No,

30:49

definitely. The challenge is alignment, because

30:51

it's easy to

30:53

keep them aligned with the springbok way, because obviously

30:56

now they're playing Japan, and the Japan league, there's

30:58

not a big kicking game there. So

31:01

they've got different skill sets

31:03

that get developed in different

31:05

competitions, but to still then

31:07

keep them aligned with the way we're gonna, our

31:09

DNA, the way we're gonna do it in South

31:11

Africa, that's a tough part. That's

31:13

why we add a lot of alignment camps.

31:16

So we would have online

31:19

alignment camps with

31:21

players regularly, just

31:23

to keep them aligned with remember,

31:25

fastly playing in Japan, I know

31:27

it's a ball, it's a more

31:29

ball-in-hand approach, but you must still

31:31

continue to practice your box kicks,

31:33

because remember in our system, we're

31:35

probably gonna look at attacking teams

31:37

really as well. So the alignment

31:39

is the first part. And then

31:41

I would say the second part

31:43

is the player management, because

31:46

it's, and we

31:48

find it tough now without your seed

31:50

players as well, where you play your

31:53

competition in the Northern Hemisphere, but your

31:55

club competition, your

31:57

pace matches or your... is

32:00

still in the Southern Hemisphere, calendar. So what

32:02

we can do is we can manage other

32:04

players in South Africa, we

32:10

can manage their load and like we did, we

32:12

took them out of Rakhti and the Six Nations for

32:16

a recon deepening block because otherwise they would

32:18

have just played and played and played and

32:20

that is the bad thing with the players

32:22

who played abroad and they don't get managed.

32:24

They just play and play and play and

32:26

I think that's why a lot of players

32:28

are trying to go to the Japan because

32:31

the Japan season is a lot more aligned with

32:33

the South African international

32:35

season. There's a lot

32:37

more flexibility there and

32:40

but definitely France and the

32:42

challenges of France and the

32:44

UK, the permission of the

32:47

big challenge and

32:49

managing the players and the players loads.

32:52

But I must say it's why I did a lot

32:54

of visits

32:56

at the clubs with

32:59

Andy Edwards who's the head of

33:01

our athletic performance and with Felix.

33:04

So that's why Felix Jones were

33:06

based in Dublin. He serviced the

33:08

players that were playing here in

33:11

Europe in the Northern Hemisphere. I can't comment

33:13

on other countries and other unions

33:16

how they managed it but definitely

33:18

for us. With our currency and

33:21

with the amount of youngsters that

33:23

gets produced and gets spit out

33:25

into the system I think it's good

33:27

for us not to block them. It's

33:29

good for so if clubs

33:31

or clubs abroad wants to use some

33:33

of our players it

33:35

opens up our all for that for that

33:38

I always want to say that

33:40

factory machine that produces these youngsters

33:42

so they can get exposure nice

33:44

and early in their careers. In

33:46

terms of the management though when you

33:49

do make big decisions like the one

33:51

you mentioned pulling Marni

33:53

and sending Andre on in a crucial

33:55

point. Managing that

33:57

fallout within a team. and

34:00

in such a tense week and such a

34:02

tense build up in a rugby World Cup

34:04

knockout phase. The culture needs to be so

34:07

incredibly strong to sustain big decisions like that

34:09

because we've all got friends at work that

34:11

we get along with really well and then

34:13

when your friend gets hauled over the coals

34:15

or doesn't get the opportunity that you think

34:17

they deserve then your lips also a bit

34:20

long and you're a little itchy for them

34:22

as well. Talk to

34:24

me about that culture that you guys have

34:26

managed to build and you built a really

34:28

good culture in a very short amount of

34:30

time between that loss to Italy what

34:33

was that 2016 2017

34:36

the turnaround to 2019 I saw it

34:38

first hand because I was often embedded

34:40

reporting on the spring box and

34:43

I was there I remember the day

34:45

when you guys announced Sia as captain

34:47

and I could genuinely see the

34:49

needle move there you know the

34:51

energy the warmth the positivity with

34:53

which people came to every engagement

34:55

and every training session. What

34:58

is the secret to fostering that and I'm

35:00

sure there isn't just one thing but if

35:02

there is one thing that now that you're

35:04

in a new environment that you need to

35:06

bed in again from scratch because this time

35:09

around it's you bringing

35:11

the Joc Niemöber way of doing

35:13

things to Leinster. Talk to me

35:15

about what the ways are in which

35:17

you embed culture first and foremost. Yes,

35:20

Elma, I think that the most important thing is

35:22

to get the right people not

35:25

necessarily the best because and that's sometimes

35:27

where we do when we do select

35:29

the squad. Sometimes

35:32

we don't select there's better there's

35:35

probably I would say better players that

35:37

are better than that once

35:39

we select in our squad that are

35:42

performing better there but the

35:44

key thing is they not they must

35:46

be the right people for the environment for

35:48

the way we do things and

35:51

that's why sometimes we get criticized selecting

35:53

a squad and yes but this guy

35:56

is on form and he's far far better than

35:58

that guy you know what the are knowledgeable

36:00

in South Africa, they are completely

36:02

right. But sometimes that guy is

36:04

not the right guy. And I

36:06

think that even if you think

36:08

about what happened, so

36:10

the quarterfinal Marni

36:13

and Küvüz

36:15

Reineach, they started, you know,

36:18

and repeat France in France,

36:21

which was a massive,

36:23

it was a massive with that. And

36:25

then the two of them again played

36:27

in the semifinal, you

36:30

know, and Küvüz. And then for

36:32

the final, just because

36:35

of our analysis and what

36:38

we, the team that we went with

36:40

the 7-1 split, which then obviously somebody

36:43

is going to fall out and

36:46

then selecting far for the final. It's

36:48

not that Küvüz wasn't good enough

36:51

to play in the final and win

36:53

a final for us. But

36:55

we just felt as a management that

36:58

Küvüz was the right guy for that

37:00

specific game. Like Küvüz was

37:02

the right guy for the French game and

37:04

Küvüz was the right guy for the game

37:06

against England. We

37:08

felt Küvüz was the right guy. It doesn't

37:10

mean that Küvüz were better than Fok or

37:12

Fok was better than Küvüz. It is use

37:14

the right personnel for that specific game. And

37:16

to do that, the

37:18

players must trust you and for

37:21

that you must ask the

37:23

right players. And I must

37:25

say that's the nice thing. The

37:27

players, I felt the players trusted

37:30

us and the decisions we

37:32

made. And we also

37:34

trusted them. And

37:36

I think that's the key thing.

37:38

You must ask the right people.

37:41

They're not necessarily the best, but

37:43

they're the right people. So I

37:45

would say that's the most important

37:47

part in terms of

37:49

the culture. If you ask the right

37:51

people there, I mean everybody goes, like

37:54

you say, everybody is not nice. I

37:56

mean, it is horrible

37:58

for Küvüz. and not playing

38:00

in the World Cup Final, you know, because he

38:03

played another tier, he was good enough to play

38:05

in the World Cup Final, but we just felt

38:07

the proper right decision for that specific game. And

38:09

then even like we are family

38:12

friendly in our environment, so we had I think

38:14

we had 65 women

38:16

and partners and kids in

38:19

the last two weeks of the final that

38:22

stayed in the hotel with us, so it

38:24

was like a it was like a kresh,

38:26

it was chaos, it was brilliant, I

38:29

loved it. And even, you

38:31

know, sometimes when let's say

38:34

Manay is a partner,

38:37

when Kuvas gets elected, Manay can be,

38:40

sometimes you can find that the partners can

38:44

become grumpy and, you know, why is

38:46

my husband not, no, and

38:48

there was nothing of that. The

38:50

partners were incredible, you know, they

38:53

was never between

38:56

them and they just pick up

38:58

the pieces. So when we don't select for the game

39:00

or we don't select Kuvas,

39:02

then the partners just pick up the

39:04

pieces, glue them back together again. And

39:07

so, I

39:09

know we have that as a stack

39:11

of stronger together, but I really felt

39:13

in this World Cup, from the kids,

39:15

the partners, I mean, how many pictures,

39:17

how many times have you seen Vinnie

39:20

carrying around Bongi's kids and Bongi carrying

39:23

around Vinnie's kids, you know, so everybody

39:26

was invested in everybody. It was

39:28

a massive big family. And

39:31

so, we had the right people

39:35

and the players and the

39:37

partners were the right people

39:41

for this work. Jacques, I think, and that's part

39:43

of the kudos. I mean, I have another chance

39:45

to say to you personally, but that's a

39:48

fantastic display of

39:50

empathetic leadership from you guys

39:52

and a buy-in from all the teams. And

39:54

actually great to see that from

39:57

a national team with leaders of men and

39:59

leaders of families. and leaders of countries, sports

40:02

teams actually displaying that kind

40:04

of interaction. And

40:07

it was something that really stood out. You could

40:09

see it. I had a slightly

40:11

more trained eye. I was delighted

40:13

with that and I think it gave an

40:15

incredible message. I had a slightly more trained

40:18

eye on the decisions on the field because

40:21

you made some big decisions around

40:23

players of unbelievable

40:27

international calibre at

40:29

crucial times of a match where even

40:31

as a commentator, I'm looking around the stadium and

40:33

people are going, oh, why is he taking that

40:36

goal for what? And I know some of the

40:38

backstory, but I'd love to hear just from you

40:40

culturally in terms of

40:43

the team. I didn't see one rolling

40:45

eye. I didn't see

40:47

one shaking head. I

40:49

didn't see one hang

40:51

jaw, hang lip type

40:54

environment, sorry, a type display.

40:57

And people forget how quickly, because

41:00

we get accustomed here, I watch Premiership

41:02

football and international football and it's amazing,

41:04

but you get a guy completely

41:07

avoiding his coach walking off kicking a water

41:09

bottle, shaking his head or whatever. I'm

41:12

sure you'd be delighted if even Elizabeth

41:14

avoided you, to

41:17

ship a token over the field. But

41:20

culturally, it felt for me

41:22

that almost any decision

41:24

made in those 85 odd minutes or

41:27

crucial 85 odd minutes would

41:29

just be listened to with

41:31

no argument because

41:33

that was pre-agreed. Is that the environment

41:35

you were trying to get for the

41:38

performance zone? Yeah,

41:40

so our team selections

41:42

and team discussions were always done

41:45

open so everybody could hear.

41:47

So when we select or announce a

41:49

team, we would announce a team

41:51

and we would say, listen, this

41:54

is the reasons why we selected the team like

41:56

this. And there wasn't

41:58

any one-on-one. No one. on one. So

42:00

it was done if the player wanted one

42:03

on one and the discussion afterwards we were

42:05

open to that. But it was never before

42:07

team selection. We had one on ones with

42:10

players and the team

42:12

was announced on

42:14

Monday morning. That's the first thing we do

42:16

normally or day one. We

42:18

would announce the squad but it was announced in

42:20

front of everyone. And we would

42:22

explain our thought process. And we would

42:24

say we are not sure yet. We

42:27

went with this and

42:31

this is our gut feel but we discussed

42:34

this option and this option and this

42:36

option. So I think we were open

42:38

and honest from the start when it

42:40

came to team selection. And then

42:42

obviously that feeds into the

42:45

Saturday the match that the

42:47

players knew that we

42:50

and I

42:53

think we were lucky Bob that there

42:55

wasn't a big gap between the players.

42:57

So if a player was on the

42:59

bench it wasn't necessarily that he second

43:02

base. No no no of course exactly.

43:05

And I think that makes it easy. Which

43:07

is hard to explain. I've got to say

43:09

I'm lucky enough to have played the

43:12

game not to the level of what

43:14

these guys are playing in the

43:16

modern day but you can get it after a while. You

43:18

can see what you guys are doing. You might start

43:20

with a guy who only does 15 or 18 or 23

43:22

minutes of something because actually there's a

43:25

bigger plan. Whereas the public

43:28

gets used to we do

43:31

our 60 minutes and then the reserves come on or

43:33

if there's an injury then they come on. And the

43:35

beauty for me was your

43:37

guys' display of attitude and

43:39

aptitude. It was an ability

43:42

to put the right guys in the right positions.

43:44

And to do that you've got to move those

43:46

pieces around the chess table without them getting cross

43:48

with you and having a display that affects the

43:50

culture in the team. So I found

43:53

that was extraordinary. Well done on that front. I think

43:56

Elmer is going to be cross with me but I

43:58

want to do two or three quick. questions. You're

44:00

allowed to think but you're allowed to

44:02

go with like a long answer because

44:05

I don't want to get you in

44:07

trouble. Whose idea was Damien Willems' Scrum

44:09

decision? Oh please come on, give

44:11

us that. France,

44:13

a quick one. It was, I would say,

44:16

Rasi. What good

44:18

answer. And then the

44:22

decisions about moving players

44:24

around etc. How many times did you either

44:26

have to convince Rasi of your idea or

44:28

did he have to convince you of his

44:30

idea or is that a thing born in

44:32

the management team? Probably

44:35

born in the management team but I would

44:37

say we, so like the 7-1 split in

44:39

the final

44:43

probably stopped. Myself

44:45

and Rasi had a conversation and

44:47

we were keen for 7-1 then

44:50

we presented to the management and

44:52

then from the management

44:54

team some of them were 5-3 and

44:58

keep it the same as what we did in the quarters

45:00

in the semis. And then Rasi

45:02

was at one

45:06

stage at 6-2 again and then I was

45:08

in the 7-1 again so it's like that.

45:10

That's the common, but

45:13

the one thing I can say is

45:17

that when we decide as a management, okay listen

45:19

we're going to go this way. We're going to

45:21

go with the 7-1 in the World Cup final

45:23

and we're not going to have a scrum off

45:25

on the bench and Chesner will cover scrum off and

45:29

some guys will oppose to that, some

45:31

guys won't and then we will explain,

45:33

show clips and discuss and it's

45:35

a long process. It's a long

45:37

process. But once we decide

45:39

that's the way we're going to go then everybody's

45:42

all in. There is not

45:44

one finger pointing, there is not, I

45:46

told you so afterwards if the plan

45:48

didn't work, once we made a decision

45:50

then we go with it. But did

45:52

you ever wake up in a cold sweat in the

45:54

middle of the night leading into

45:57

that game going what are we doing, we

45:59

are absolutely objective. crazy. No,

46:01

yes, you definitely. I mean, you think that

46:04

I think the public will crucify you, you

46:06

know, especially if you lose FAF early on

46:08

and that's what you think, you know, remember

46:10

that team selection is for South Africa. It's

46:13

never for us, it's never and that's how

46:15

we explain it to the players as well.

46:17

Remember we are selecting a team that's representing

46:19

South Africa, 62 million

46:22

people and and I promise you, you

46:24

wake up at night with

46:27

sweating thinking, yes, if we lose FAF

46:29

early on, I think in the Monbella

46:32

game FAF got a head knock and

46:34

Comcast after and Jayden had to play

46:36

the rest of the game. So, and

46:40

you think, yes, what is that happens and

46:42

now Chasen has to go play as well,

46:44

which we used in the training

46:47

there a lot. So, it's not for

46:49

the fan, it looks maybe, yes, what are

46:51

you doing but he's been training there like

46:54

for 12 weeks, 16 weeks, we've been

46:57

training there every now and then, he

46:59

gets a couple of reps at Scrum

47:01

Off, you know, and so it's not

47:03

for us, it's not a weird idea

47:06

but you still think that that might,

47:08

if you lose the game, people will

47:10

always say listen, it's because you were

47:13

too clever, you didn't have a special

47:15

Scrum Off. Jock, I had an extraordinary

47:20

thing happen to me, so I was doing some

47:22

work in America, in Dallas actually, and it was

47:24

the week before the Texas Rangers won the

47:26

World Series and they never

47:28

won it and I

47:31

listened to these baseball guys talking about coaching in

47:33

the background and the one guy was a statistician

47:35

who'd converted and he was a coach and

47:38

he was the most vociferous, he said it's not

47:40

about the stats, it's about the battle and

47:43

but obviously from a background of stats, you know, so

47:46

he's like, you know, I live in the world of

47:48

stats, so it's not and then they

47:50

had, I've got it on here and they gave

47:52

away these bands

47:55

where battle is written on the

47:58

players and they were like, you could into

48:00

the World Series final, World

48:02

Cup final, doesn't matter with all the best stats

48:04

in the whole world but it's how you battle

48:06

to make those stats happen. And

48:09

then I got back and we were preparing for the

48:11

World Cup and you guys came out and actually put

48:13

that moniker, the name Battle Stats around the individual players

48:16

or whatever and I put Battle and Stats together, I

48:18

was the happiest guy in the whole world because I'd

48:20

seen it, I said that that was a premonition for

48:22

me, you know, and so word all the way through

48:24

to the World Cup final. So Bob actually won you

48:27

the World Cup, just so you know. The opposite, the

48:29

opposite, the opposite. But

48:31

so tell us about that Battle Stats because

48:33

there was a clip that came out and

48:35

I don't know if it's only in the

48:37

South African algorithm that this thing floated around

48:39

where Nik Mallet speaks about you guys coming

48:41

in to speak to the South African rugby

48:43

commentators at some point and explaining how you

48:45

measure Battle Stats and that Kwaka Smith was

48:48

the guy who led on Battle Stats

48:50

at that stage far and wide and

48:53

he had these insane numbers. For people

48:56

who have no recollection of what I'm talking about here,

48:58

could you break it down quickly? So

49:01

the old concept is probably, we

49:04

always say that, listen, we're much in order

49:06

to select it, it comes down to team

49:08

selection. So it's actually in our team selection

49:11

protocol, we talk about battles and

49:13

we say that we will much rather

49:15

select the player that get himself into

49:17

100 battles and he only wins

49:19

80% of them. So let's

49:22

say he loses 20% of

49:24

those battles but in 80 battles

49:27

he will have influence in the

49:29

game. We would much rather select

49:31

a guy like that than a guy who wins

49:33

100% of his battles but he

49:36

only gets himself in 40 battles. So

49:39

it actually works out, basically it

49:41

comes down to work rate. We

49:44

would much rather select a guy with

49:46

a higher work rate than a guy

49:48

that's more effective in his work

49:50

because we believe that we can get a

49:53

guy through coaching, we can get him to

49:55

be more effective. So we have two, we

49:57

have battles and we have the road. road

50:00

matches actually are effective in

50:02

your battles. So we actually

50:05

just measure how much time

50:10

you get yourself in a battle

50:12

per minute of Kanta. So how

50:15

quickly can you get yourself in a

50:17

battle? So Koha was part of it.

50:19

He was when we spoke to

50:23

Nick and Joel and the pundits

50:25

in South Africa just to give them a little

50:27

bit of a backdrop of how

50:29

we did team selection, what

50:32

is our team selection policy, that

50:34

we explained battles right today. And

50:37

then Jock, I think one of

50:39

the things that's been happening as

50:41

well is off the back of

50:43

that is understanding the

50:46

pure performances, individual performances

50:48

which also affected the

50:50

tournament. And for me a

50:52

standout was Peter Steff with

50:55

the number of tackles he made. I mean he had carries

50:57

and line-out wins, etc. But in the World Cup final, in

51:00

an 80-minute game you guys had 38 minutes, 38 and a half

51:03

minutes of ball in play. During that time

51:06

he was able to make 29 tackles.

51:08

I think four of them would turn over,

51:10

12 of them were effective or something like

51:13

that. But you talk about in the game

51:15

and winning battle the Momsbury missile came good

51:17

for South Africa in those 80 minutes. He

51:21

was phenomenal in the final. But I

51:23

must say Peter Steff in

51:27

the World Cup he just grew and grew and

51:29

grew. I mean we all know, he was world

51:31

player of the year 2019. So he's phenomenal, right?

51:34

He's just grew and grew and grew in

51:36

the World Cup and

51:39

he became better and better and

51:41

better. Him and Franco Mosler, those

51:43

two guys, they can run for

51:45

days. For days, for days. So

51:49

I think even Franco in

51:51

the last three games in

51:53

the knockouts, I don't think

51:55

he missed the tackle. He

51:57

was phenomenal. and

52:01

Peter Steg, so the two of them are not

52:03

that the other guys are not but their main

52:05

thing is they just cover holes. And if you

52:07

look at what Peter Steg did in

52:10

the final, I mean how many times you've been

52:12

on the first receiver of New

52:14

Zealand, putting him under pressure, I

52:16

mean he's phenomenal at that. Yeah,

52:18

just runs towards suffering the whole time. Is

52:20

there something that you are proudest of? I'm

52:26

guessing having two Rugby World Cup winners

52:28

medals, you know, like I don't even

52:30

know where, where are you hanging those in your

52:32

new Leinster house? Are they close to the front

52:34

door somewhere? You ready to put them in the decorator's

52:36

door? Yeah. No,

52:40

those medals are actually in

52:43

my home in Cape Town. You

52:47

left them in South Africa? Yeah, I left them in

52:49

South Africa. They broke into the

52:51

ESSO Rugby the other day. Yeah,

52:53

I know. Metals come and

52:55

go, the memories that lost. And that's probably the

52:57

big thing. I would say that

53:00

the most enjoyable thing for me almost

53:02

probably, the memories you make, and I

53:04

know it's a cliche thing, but the memories you

53:06

make with players. I remember myself and

53:08

Bob having a beer in Auckland at

53:10

the pub. I think you phoned

53:12

me and said, listen to your quinoa beer. I remember

53:14

that. I can't remember the games. I can't remember what

53:17

the scores were. I don't remember

53:19

that, but I remember the special

53:23

little things that you, the

53:25

bonds you make with the players. And

53:28

I think for me,

53:30

this group of players that now

53:32

went to this World Cup, a

53:35

lot of them, like Ciara started coaching when he

53:37

was 19. He was in the Webster Province

53:39

Academy. OG, I

53:41

started coaching at ESS schools. I

53:43

was fortunate enough to be involved

53:46

ESS schools, ESS 20. Andra

53:49

Estrasen, Jesse Thomas

53:53

the Toy, the

53:55

Priya brothers. They were both in

53:57

the 2014 Junior Spring Walkers. So

54:00

and you know what the the best thing

54:02

about these plays, you know, she hasn't changed

54:05

He never became the title So

54:08

she are she are policing and then you get

54:10

see other stream of gravity player and the and

54:12

the World Cup winning captain She

54:14

never became she are the

54:16

springbok World Cup winning captain. He always

54:18

thanks here So I

54:21

think that's probably for me the the nicest

54:23

thing of You

54:25

ask what's what's the best? Why what's the thing that

54:27

I will always remember and cherish the most is

54:30

that the players never became the titles?

54:32

They always just say the guy that

54:34

I knew Dwayne from the other I've

54:36

been working with Dwayne since 2006

54:39

17 years we've been working together Either

54:43

me just in his physio coaching him

54:46

or being his defense coach and and

54:48

in management and Dwayne just stayed Dwayne

54:50

you know, he's think he was he's

54:52

state the guy that came from the

54:55

pumice to To

54:57

the cheetahs, you know, you always say that

54:59

guy so so the nice thing I saw them

55:01

when they were young They were yakara.

55:03

They were naughty. They weren't married and then I

55:06

saw them becoming They married

55:08

and they became fathers and wives

55:11

fathers to wives and Husbands

55:14

to wives and fathers to kids so to

55:17

sort to see the growth of the players

55:19

is probably the thing that that Will

55:21

sit in my head when I'm old

55:23

and grand and and and Shaking

55:26

there in front of the fight that I would remember that

55:29

well At least at least whatever highlights are flickering on

55:31

the screen you will have been part of there's

55:33

a there's a fantastic story in there for You

55:35

as well job golden and you have

55:37

so much to be proud of now. I'm

55:40

trying to put myself in your shoes Here's

55:43

a guy who has massively overshot his

55:45

own ambitions. All he wanted to do

55:47

was be the cheetahs physio and He's

55:50

gone on and achieved these amazing highs

55:53

in the world of rugby You

55:55

could at the stage probably walk

55:58

into almost any coaching job You

58:00

start for success in the time,

58:02

the currency that we pay as

58:04

coaches of time. And

58:07

you only got, I've only got 24 hours in

58:09

a day. So, and I have to sleep

58:11

and I have to maybe go for a jog and

58:13

maybe have a glass of wine. So just

58:15

to keep my insanity. So where do you

58:17

get the more time? You take it from

58:19

your family because they're your bank. And

58:22

they give it to you because they love you. So

58:25

that is actually the chart we

58:27

had as a family. And they

58:29

just said, listen, I was literally

58:32

thinking I'm going to lose them

58:34

a life. You know, if I

58:36

continue with international rugby.

58:38

And that's why it's not that I

58:40

don't like international rugby. It's not that

58:42

I don't like the Springboks. It's just,

58:44

listen, I need to recharge my

58:47

family time and time with my family.

58:49

And that's why I decided not to

58:51

continue with international rugby, ends with the

58:53

Springboks or any other team. And

58:56

so, but what I

58:58

do like about international rugby is

59:01

the challenge of the players. Because they are

59:03

the best of the best, you know. And

59:06

for me, luckily, Stewart decided to move

59:09

on to racing, who was

59:11

a youngster and the lengths were dropped a lot.

59:13

And for me, I think the nice challenge for

59:15

the length days, I

59:17

mean, you basically sit with

59:20

the Irish international squad. So

59:22

I think that the demands

59:24

of performance would be as

59:26

high as the demand of performance will be

59:29

with an international job. And

59:32

the demands and the challenges that the players

59:34

will put on to you as a coach,

59:37

will be as high as an international

59:39

team will put on any coach. So

59:42

for me, it's probably worked out the

59:45

best of the best, if I can

59:47

put it like that. You still work

59:49

with international quality players in an international

59:51

environment, almost within

59:54

their length of the environment. They run a

59:57

very high performance system.

1:00:00

I'm only here for a

1:00:02

week but they run a

1:00:04

live performance environment there and

1:00:07

I get some time to come. So

1:00:09

that's the reason why I decided to get

1:00:11

out of International Rafi and that's why I

1:00:14

had this conversation with Rasi, with Sāori

1:00:16

early on and explained to

1:00:18

them this is the reason and I

1:00:22

was open and honest with when

1:00:24

Leinster approached me and yeah

1:00:27

that's why I'm

1:00:29

with Leinster and looking forward to working with him.

1:00:32

Jacques, it sounds like again you've come up with

1:00:34

a strategy where not only do all the ends

1:00:37

get served but everybody wins. Everybody

1:00:41

wins. Everybody wins. Very

1:00:44

deeply. Very typically

1:00:46

Jacques, a serious amount of thought and

1:00:48

strategy has gone into this. Always. Is

1:00:50

there anything you just do off the

1:00:52

cuff or is everything a big strategy

1:00:54

game? Like I fear for you as

1:00:57

a golfer. No,

1:00:59

no everything is well. I'm

1:01:03

an overthinker. My

1:01:07

wife reminds me a lot. Listen, sometimes you

1:01:09

must just go with things but no I'm

1:01:11

not like that. I'm

1:01:13

a complete overthinker of

1:01:15

things. Yeah, too much. Well

1:01:18

I think South Africa is very fortunate to have

1:01:20

had an overthinker of your calibre in

1:01:23

that setup for as long as you were there.

1:01:26

I think Leinster is

1:01:28

in for some great new heights.

1:01:31

There's a ton of close

1:01:33

losses on their recent

1:01:36

scoresheet history and so I'm sure

1:01:38

they'll be

1:01:41

happy to have the guy who's renowned for the one

1:01:43

point wins, three of them on the trot in

1:01:47

make or break games to have you in the

1:01:49

fold must be a massive reassurance for them. Yeah,

1:01:51

just starting out there. Like I said, it's going

1:01:53

to be a nice challenge and

1:01:57

they are looking forward to it. and

1:04:00

the rugby with

1:04:02

Alex Payne, James Haskell and Mike

1:04:04

Pinville. Thanks for listening.