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0:28

Fresh for everyone. Hello

0:58

Dream Team. Welcome along to this week's episode of

1:00

The Good, The Bad and The Rugby, brought to

1:02

you by our very good friends at Continental Tires.

1:04

In the very wise words of a certain Johnny

1:06

May, there's no good news and there's no bad

1:09

news. There's just news. And there are a number

1:11

of headlines around the game at the moment. None

1:13

bigger than that of Owen Farrell. It has been

1:15

confirmed that he is off to wrestling in July

1:17

on a two year deal to play in Paris

1:19

under the guidance of Stuart Langes. The man, of

1:21

course, gave him his England debut back

1:24

in 2012. Such big news that

1:26

actually we have done a special on that. So

1:28

if you'd like the instant reaction to Owen

1:30

Farrell heading to Paris in July, have

1:32

a little look at that on YouTube. But

1:34

in the main show this week, we're going to

1:37

get into the rest of the sports headlines, including

1:39

the fact that the England squad has been

1:42

named. We'll be picking a 15 to take

1:44

on Italy and to react to the appointment

1:46

of Jamie George as England captain. Louis

1:49

Rees-Zamit is off to the NFL to

1:51

pursue his American dream. Can Joe

1:53

Schmidt turn Australia around in time for

1:55

the Lions tour next year? Plus, we'll

1:57

talk all things club rugby, including reflect...

2:00

on the Champions Cup pool stages. But

2:03

first tonight, we start with the England squad, which

2:05

has been named. Let's go

2:07

to our correspondent, Mike Tyndall. Are you

2:09

pleased with what you have seen? They've got

2:12

to insert the bongs between them. I've left

2:14

faith in the bongs. I know you did.

2:16

I just didn't know if the bong producer picked up on

2:18

it because sometimes he drifts it off. You know, like, you

2:21

need to see somebody who's had like a big lunch. And

2:23

they just sort of go, like, he looks like a member

2:25

of parliament. Just like after a big lunch, it's

2:27

the four o'clock session, he's like this. What?

2:30

Oh, that's Godzilla's ass. Who measures Godzilla?

2:33

Don't let us be, sir. No. All we have is a lie. Right,

2:39

back on track. What you're trying

2:41

to do here is divert from all the talk

2:43

of England's squad and rugby. You

2:45

can't do that. It's like a kid, you

2:47

know, just drops everything on the floor. She

2:49

does have to do math. Can

2:52

I get a coffee, tea? God.

2:54

I need a loo. Do you see the

2:56

weather? My mate shed blue down. Oh,

2:59

things fall on the floor again. Right.

3:01

Bong. Mike Tyndall, let's

3:03

go live to our correspondent on the other side of

3:05

the room and say, thoughts

3:07

on the squad, please, Mike. Look, I

3:10

think there are some people who've fought

3:12

their way back in. You

3:14

know, it's a good sort of

3:16

Beno Obama, Ben Spencer. I've

3:18

talked wax lyrically of Ben

3:20

Spencer for a bit of time. And

3:23

finally, I think with having Finn Russell there,

3:25

he's got the credit he

3:27

deserves. There is a good mixture

3:30

of well-established names and

3:32

some guys

3:35

with a few caps and some uncapped

3:37

players joining the fray who've been pulling

3:39

up trees for their clubs. So...

3:42

And some people that weren't on the radar at

3:44

all. Oh, nice. Like,

3:48

hold on. Hold on, I'll find him

3:50

on piece of paper. He's got the Chandler Cully himself. Yeah.

3:52

Right. Well, I wasn't the only one who thought we were

3:54

going to be the roost. It's definitely somebody who's come right

3:56

up the lead by the roost. Doing

3:59

reggae, reggae sauce. and play. No,

4:01

but again, he's another one. But

4:04

yes, I mean, you know, I think it's amazing

4:06

with with blooding so many kind of new faces. So

4:08

that is the question really. Do you take what England

4:10

achieved in France at 2023 and build on it,

4:14

adapt it, sort of develop what that

4:16

was? Or is this a blank sheet

4:18

of paper and you are starting a

4:21

brand new so I thought you've

4:23

got to take stuff out of the World

4:26

Cup, but you've also got to put a

4:28

realistic spin on it. We

4:32

have seen through the Champions Cup

4:34

recently that our

4:36

players can mix it, right? We got six into the

4:39

final 16. We've

4:43

had some unbelievable performances, you know,

4:45

from Harlequin's this weekend, Northampton in

4:47

terms of what they did turning

4:49

over Munster. I

4:51

think, you know, big big people have

4:55

stood up with their performances as well.

4:58

You look at Mitchell Finn Smith on

5:01

the weekend. Obviously, Marcus Smith, how he played

5:03

Danny Care to

5:05

name but a few. There are lots, you

5:07

know, Maro Toggi on the

5:09

weekend was unbelievable. But

5:13

my biggest question for England is the

5:15

team is irrelevant depending on how you

5:18

play. Right. So put that into the

5:20

context of France 2023 where England kicked

5:23

the most and played the most conservative rugby.

5:27

Is this a complete sea change? Starting

5:30

again, you know, of course, it was a

5:33

sea change because as we know the team that

5:36

actually kicks the most is has the

5:38

greatest percentage of chance of winning England's

5:41

biggest work on from the World Cup. Their

5:44

attack game wasn't great. If you watch

5:46

the product that is in Premiership and

5:48

Champions Cup at the moment, the

5:50

skill sets are incredible. Yeah,

5:53

and we need to

5:55

let the England players go and do that on

5:57

an international stage within the structure that

5:59

fits. into International Ruby. Let's

6:01

pick a 15 in just a moment,

6:04

but Jamie Georges-Skipper, who has spoken really

6:06

passionately about being utterly desperate to

6:08

connect this team back to the fans again, which was

6:10

obviously a problem, pretty woke up. The

6:12

pride that they showed in the performance against

6:15

South Africa has definitely brought it back again,

6:17

but I think everybody in

6:19

England wants to get behind this team for it

6:21

to be a new chapter. Jamie's spoken very passionately

6:23

about that. As the man you know, what are

6:26

you making of the appointment? I think he's

6:28

a brilliant man, a fantastic player, incredibly

6:30

skillful. Just a great bloke. A great

6:33

bloke. Really, a good thing is he's

6:35

so good in front of the camera.

6:38

So I am, what we talked

6:40

about pre World Cup, no player ever

6:42

being the front, no one's ever been, hasn't been

6:44

the front of this team in terms of being

6:46

out there in front of a camera, giving

6:49

a real view of what's going on. Jamie

6:51

Georges is the perfect captain.

6:54

He'll be honest. He'll

6:56

tell it in the way of the

6:58

lads. He can actually, hopefully, nothing

7:01

against Steve, we won't be hearing from Steve,

7:03

we'll be hearing from Jamie Georges

7:05

and then hopefully the other players will follow suit

7:08

and we'll actually find out more about this England

7:10

team. I was just having a thought actually, because

7:13

before we got into this, the

7:15

man act was very dangerous. The last

7:17

time we were all together, three

7:20

best friends, I said I

7:22

thought Ellis Gens would be captain, actually goes

7:24

back into what I just said about Jamie

7:26

Georges. If you were going to pick a

7:28

new chapter, so you've got new coaching staff,

7:31

obviously, Simfields Jones is coming, take defence,

7:33

Simfields has been moved onto skills, soon

7:35

to be, I know the details, unbelievable.

7:37

He's obviously moved out after the Six

7:40

Nations. Maybe the New Zealand tour,

7:42

but. Maybe, he's lost details. But

7:47

if you picked Ellis Gens as captain, who I think

7:49

is an unbelievable captain and I think should captain

7:51

England, because of his personality,

7:53

it still edges. If

7:56

you wanted the smoothness of transition, so if we've

7:58

learned anything at the moment. There's

8:01

rough waters around rugby, there's rough

8:03

waters around England, or there

8:05

was. We've lost a couple of players because of it.

8:07

We're trying to be on this positive take. Some

8:10

of the writers who slagged are now saying that we

8:12

all should be nice. It's a funny sort of cycle

8:14

of life going round. I think if you made Ellis

8:16

against captain, there's Edges because he

8:18

wouldn't always play the party

8:20

line. I wouldn't tell it. I think Jamie

8:22

will be his own man. But it's because he's such a good

8:25

guy. There's some really, really good quotes in here. There's a way

8:27

of connecting with the fans off the field as well as through

8:29

the way that we act with the media, through social media, and

8:31

through the way we speak and talk to grassroots clubs and to

8:33

bring those guys on a journey with us. Because I want England

8:35

fans to feel part of this England team, says Jamie. It means

8:37

a lot to me because when I sat there as a fan

8:40

myself, I felt part of the team. I want

8:42

everyone to feel that way and go on the journey with

8:44

us. So some really, really nice

8:46

stuff. It does feel like they are

8:48

very, very conscious that there is a

8:50

big piece of work that needs to

8:52

be done between team and supporters. Yeah,

8:54

I think Jamie's very intelligent, he's very

8:57

articulate. He's unbelievable skills, incredible player,

9:00

respected by everybody. I think what's interesting is

9:02

for me, this is the real start to the E-Borsig's journey

9:06

with this team and the kind of a new clean sweep.

9:08

And I think there's a lot of lessons learned. I think

9:10

especially from the way the media

9:12

and the way the fans and the social media interact

9:14

with the team, I think the stuff

9:16

around Owen, the stuff around the way that the stuff

9:18

conducted in the World Cup, I think this is a

9:20

perfect moment to draw a line under it. We've

9:23

got a new team with some new players and some old heads. We've

9:26

got a new captain, which in

9:28

the best one in the world, you can't not like Jamie George. He's

9:31

got no edges to him. Physically he's

9:33

like a weevil. There's

9:35

nothing to dislike about him. And

9:37

I think for me, he's positive. I think this

9:39

is a very exciting moment to get into Six

9:42

Nations. There's always sometimes feel like a little bit

9:44

of a lull after World

9:46

Cup. But there are some broken hearts

9:48

in this mix. And

9:50

a lot of teams that I've got to kick on

9:52

and really improve and make a difference. So I'm really

9:54

positive about all of it. I think there's players that

9:57

we're not that familiar with. There's old heads coming back in

9:59

the mix. guys were desperate to

10:01

get 100 caps. Danny Care being

10:03

on fire. Five away I think he is. Yeah

10:06

96 he's got. I don't even look at the

10:08

sheet, I'm on it. Don't

10:10

worry about it. It's just a detail. So

10:14

I'm just very excited and I think we can really upbeat about it.

10:16

I think Steve, obviously

10:18

when he first came in as talk about Eddie

10:20

having a hangover and adjusting players, limited time, coming

10:22

to World Cup a bit more time, trying

10:25

to pick up some selections.

10:27

We've got a few in. I think the discord as

10:29

well, it's telling about who's not been in it. Joe

10:32

Coughan the singer, Max Malins. He's a brilliant this season

10:34

of above. I think

10:37

it's quite strange that he's

10:39

not in there. Max Malins again, Billy

10:41

V, obviously Mako

10:43

retired, big note for Mako, what

10:46

a player, almost reinvented the position.

10:49

Ryan Lyons test as well, which sort of goes

10:51

under the radar because he wasn't a big showman

10:54

or orator. But the way he

10:56

played, he dragged every other loser head

10:58

up with him to play in a style that he

11:00

played because he played a bit like Kiwi, a baller,

11:03

footballer, dummy, dominant. And he slapped me and called me

11:05

a pussy when I couldn't score against the island. And

11:07

I went fuck you, it's like next shot bro. So

11:09

you don't get to do that. It's not like you

11:11

say, oh no offense for your break. You can't follow

11:13

me and then go calm down. Well obviously he'd realised

11:16

that so many people have said that you have made

11:18

a difference. Exactly. You're wasting his time. I think as

11:20

well, one player I'm very

11:22

surprised at, don't know whether he's injured or

11:24

whether he was going to get banned or why he's not involved

11:26

because he's been doing some amazing, amazing work. Yeah,

11:30

I think there might be an issue with that. And

11:33

then Zach Mercer, obviously the big comeback, the big return.

11:35

I haven't seen a lot of him play for Gloucester.

11:37

I know he had that at that angle injury. He's

11:39

come back. He quotes him, I just don't feel like

11:41

he values what I can offer as a player. That's

11:44

me being honest. I just don't think he values what

11:46

I can bring. I mean, imagine coming back help his

11:48

cause. No, unfortunately not. But we asked players to speak

11:50

their mind and actually he's played nice and in rugby

11:52

we're very humble and polite. Zach Mercer turned down being

11:55

the best, one of the best players in France to

11:57

come back here to get an opportunity to play for England. He's

12:00

not getting any luck. He doesn't help with close to

12:02

lose nine on the bounce of the premiership or whatever

12:04

it is, eight on the bounce. Because

12:08

he's always more helpful if you're playing on

12:10

a team that's winning because you normally play better.

12:12

But he's only been back for what, the

12:14

last six

12:16

weeks or something? Well, seven weeks.

12:19

So yeah, I think he's still got a road to

12:21

come through. It's not an automatic thing because he hasn't

12:23

really got any caps to fall back on. Let's

12:26

come back. Should we pick a

12:28

tee? The caveat that this

12:30

is the team you would love to see, not the

12:33

team you think will be picked. And how are they

12:35

going to play before you pick the team? They

12:39

are going to play very fast. They're

12:42

going to protect their own end. They're going to still have

12:44

a plan. But they're going to play high tempo. I

12:47

want Danny Kerr, Marcus Smith

12:49

tapping from their own 22 if they think

12:51

it's on. We've seen that

12:53

over two weekends where actually if you just put your

12:55

head up and you find that there is actually, you've

12:57

got numbers, you can score. So you want your team

12:59

to be brave to go for it while being nasty

13:01

and good at best. High

13:04

tempo and unrelenting

13:07

in their speed

13:10

of how they want to attack. Lou says, Joe

13:12

Marla, Ellis Gensh, Beno Abana, who you've touched on

13:14

already, Last Appearance Against

13:16

Canada in the USA 2021, and then

13:19

Against Scotland that year, Six Nations. And he's made a couple of

13:21

documentaries in between. I

13:24

still think that Baby Rhino is unbelievable.

13:28

Do we know what Joe can do and therefore we want to

13:30

see what Beno Abana can do? We

13:34

love Joe Marla, but how

13:37

old is Joe now? He's

13:40

been around quite a long time. He's retired

13:42

four times. He's been around for long and

13:44

that. And he doesn't go when you fully

13:46

expect him to. Yeah. Interesting

13:48

when you're going around props. Obviously Joe's

13:50

been unbelievable for the game, but then there's

13:52

a lot of hype

13:54

around sales, Pocky Fijo,

13:57

about how good he's been.

14:00

Joe Marla actually said he's playing at

14:02

a different level at what he can

14:04

do things I can never do. I

14:07

wonder if we'll see him in that UK

14:09

game against Portugal. Possibly. So with

14:12

that, I'll tell you about this. Jamie

14:14

Jordan started too, obviously. Theo Dan

14:16

was one of the fast movers if we're doing Top of

14:18

Pops with a high riser at the World Cup. And

14:21

his recent fall. He

14:24

is just so aggressive when he carries and

14:27

we need that. Who

14:29

gets your bench spot? Theo Dan is

14:32

just what we need. A

14:34

nice little saris duo there as well.

14:37

Tight heads. Welcome back Dan

14:39

Cole, yet again 107-0 out. Will

14:42

Stewart and Joe Hayes. Big

14:44

speed. The big person missing there

14:46

is obviously Carl Sinclair. Carl

14:48

Sinclair. Wasn't Mr Tackles this season? He did.

14:51

He's got 69 out of 69 Alex. Thank

14:53

you Joe. So on the basis that you know

14:55

what Joe can do, we love him for all

14:57

he's done for the game, but we want to

15:00

see what other options are out there. Does that

15:02

apply to Dan Cole? Or do you start with

15:04

the heavy anvil?

15:06

Yes. So you're going to Will Stewart

15:08

to start Joe Hayes on bench? It

15:10

depends because obviously Italy, would you give the

15:12

opportunity to Joe Hayes? But then Dan Cole,

15:15

he played well in that World Cup. He's

15:17

good. He's still playing well. If

15:19

you need some experience because Scrum's so

15:22

volatile at the moment. If you get a referee that's

15:24

doing you in a bit, you're on the back foot,

15:26

having someone like Dan Cole, you can just wheel on.

15:28

The big Cole a bit. Yeah maybe

15:30

he's doing it. I do

15:32

understand with a tight head about just getting your

15:34

job done. So I

15:37

don't, as much as I think we need

15:39

to move on, you

15:41

still need a solid platform. So whatever gives you that.

15:43

The thing is this team needs to win. You

15:46

can't allow the whole of the youngsters to drop

15:48

the ball. Well hold on that's what he said. You

15:52

can't train in the Six Nations was your quote. No

15:55

I know. Was that my quote? Well since then I've

15:57

got a YouTube channel recording. No you can't be f...

16:00

finding out your team in the explanations. But also, the

16:02

little student's got 33 caps now. Yeah,

16:04

how do you defend well for Bath? Yeah, and

16:06

Bath are playing some unbelievable rugby. Okay, so what's

16:08

the answer to the question? Well,

16:10

we'll do it in Dan Cole. So you've gone back to

16:12

Dan Cole? No, I would say Joe Hayes.

16:16

Because you've either got to start Dan Cole. Let's do

16:18

two different teams and then we can compare and contrast

16:20

them. Second row, Marrow straight in. I saw

16:22

one or two actually saying the other day, he's placed

16:24

under threat for the first time and then he comes out and he's got

16:26

a couple of... He's got one there, we're going to shoot. It's

16:29

a real shame George Martin isn't there. But

16:32

Ollie Chesham to partner Marrow, Alex Coles and Nick

16:34

Asiqui, the two other options. Yeah,

16:37

I think Ollie Chesham to be fair,

16:40

did well in that World Cup and I

16:42

think he deserves to... I know

16:45

he came off on the weekend but he deserves probably his

16:47

chance to continue that. He's a

16:49

top line-up operator in the premiership in terms of how much

16:51

he's using, how much ball he's using. It's amazing how much

16:53

information you've studied. It is, it's like a watch every minute.

16:55

A watch every minute. Who

16:58

gets your bench spot, Alex Coles or Nick Asiqui? Who do you go with a

17:00

heavy back row? I wonder if you don't

17:03

put Alex Coles on. He's had a run before, hasn't he?

17:06

Yeah, a run but I think that was under Eddie, I

17:08

think he kind of got flooded and then wasn't seen

17:10

again. I think he's got back into it, he's probably

17:12

tasted him and wants to play well. I

17:15

think if you're bringing someone on to add a

17:17

different element, then maybe that was cool. His more

17:19

patterned outfit are packed for the confidence right now

17:21

as well. That's quite a good

17:23

thing. Okay, Maro and Ollie

17:26

into the second row, Alex Coles on the bench. Nick

17:28

Asiqui will see you next week potentially. Back

17:31

row is I think fascinating because

17:34

Sam Underhill was mega in that fourth place

17:36

playoff. He was unbelievable in

17:38

that third-place playoff. And obviously he came

17:41

in late, he's had a couple of injury problems. I

17:43

put him in off, I was just off the back

17:45

of that. Have you? Yeah. Because

17:47

of what he can do at his best on the

17:49

day. To come back into that game and play like

17:51

that when you haven't had your injury problems, you haven't

17:53

really played that much. It

17:55

just goes back to reminding you of how good he

17:57

was when he first got capped. Obviously

18:02

those moments where you dip and you don't have faith, it just

18:04

comes back and just delivers. And you

18:06

just don't know the effect of what an injury can have

18:09

and how you feel in yourself whilst you're trying to get

18:11

back in the moment. And does he have to play open-side?

18:14

Or could you play him at six? No, you could play him at

18:16

six. I think he'd play him at six. So presumably

18:18

Ben-El holds the eighth shirt. Yes. So

18:21

then do you put Sam under him at six and

18:23

pick a Tom Pearson or a

18:25

Kerryon every time? I said you could put

18:27

Pearson at six, couldn't you? He

18:29

doesn't need to be seven either. I think

18:31

we've got a sort of Kerry underhill again, haven't you? The

18:39

kamikaze is a different flavour than

18:41

Ben-El-Tom. But I think

18:43

cutting him south has been interesting

18:45

for Harlequins as well. He's an all-action,

18:48

all-call. Do you know

18:50

what? Go on. Because

18:53

Tom Pearson, I've kind of been watching for

18:55

Northampton and his big unit carries

18:57

like a machine. He's

19:00

physical. I'd

19:02

underhill Ben-El and Tom Pearson. I'd love

19:04

to see. Tom

19:06

Pearson, again, I spoke

19:08

to Steve before the World Cup.

19:11

And obviously he's at Merskot, left out. Steve Boulthard.

19:13

That is me and Steve. Friends in high places.

19:15

Good chat, whenever we want. And

19:17

he was very impressed with Tom Pearson. He didn't make the

19:19

World Cup squad. But to have a young kid come into

19:21

that squad, have he never played for England, he liked what

19:23

he saw. Do you want to get quite excited by this?

19:27

And also, you think that we've got those players

19:29

but you still don't have your chat with us

19:31

as you still haven't got your Tom Curry. And

19:33

how good is it to see Jack Willis coming

19:35

back after that neck injury? He's played a few

19:37

games. I mean, I'm so jealous he gets to

19:39

play for Toulouse, man. So good. Every

19:41

time I see him, I see that red

19:43

shirt with that black number and just run

19:45

it. I was like, you've got to wait

19:47

till you see his bank balance. I know.

19:49

So we're going, I'm going at seven, Earl

19:52

at eight and Tom Pearson at six.

19:54

Yeah. And then you go

19:56

to the bank. You can bring Don Brandt on

19:58

the... on the bench

20:00

because if he doesn't go to eight you can then put him on the second row

20:02

if Alex come and bring Alex Coles on at six if

20:04

he wants to keep his game.

20:29

Do you keep combinations? No. No.

20:32

Okay, so you can pick any one of those three. I

20:34

think you could generally pick any one of those three. Surely

20:36

Alex Mitchell has to retain personal cutters and he's got credit

20:39

back. And also he's been playing amazing. And I love Ben

20:41

Spence. He played unbelievably well on the weekend. Ben Spence has

20:43

to be involved. Ben will start 100%. I

20:45

just think because he's so good. Right. So

20:48

Mitchell will start care on the bench. Ben Spence

20:50

will keep going. I've

20:53

raved about Ben Spence. You have. You've

20:55

got a chance to put him in. I love Ben Spence as well. I'm

20:58

going to be really awesome. Alex Mitchell after he played

21:00

so well on the weekend. You're dropping Alex Mitchell. Oh

21:02

my God. You take Ben Spence and then again. And

21:04

I'm what he did to Muster the weekend. Oh my

21:07

God. That is just doubling that. You've gone all

21:09

in on back just because. No, so yes. I've

21:12

got I've got history here and not on what

21:14

the weekend was. I raved about Ben

21:16

Spence and now he's got a chance. But

21:18

it happens to be that this is slightly different

21:20

because there are two other guys who are in good

21:22

form as well. I would take I

21:25

think you're right. You can't drop Mitchell and

21:27

then I'd have DC on the bench. Do you think

21:29

this is the most exciting group of three to go

21:31

half we've had for England? For alongside

21:34

Muster. Dawson Bracken and Gollis.

21:38

Yes. Fly half. I'd start with Finn

21:40

Smith. Ford, Marcus Smith or Finn Smith. I'd start with Finn

21:42

Smith. You're going all in on Finn Smith. Joe White. Do

21:45

you know why? Just because we know. I

21:48

tell you what, listen. I

21:52

tell you what, listen. It's a hard one

21:54

because obviously if I was actually picking a team,

21:57

I'd go with Mitchell and

21:59

I'd go with all. or go with Danny Carroll, which I want

22:01

doesn't matter, and sort of Marcus

22:03

Smith because they

22:05

work well. But I think playing it to Italy, when

22:08

else do you see an opportunity to start Finn Smith to

22:10

get that time? And then say you

22:12

had George Ford on the bench. We didn't

22:14

have to start it. You bring him on, we're not gonna have

22:16

to start. Yeah, but as we said, I think they're

22:20

going to want to play

22:22

their four-strength team. Yeah. And

22:25

set them up. I would

22:28

say that I'll pick

22:30

Ford. To start? Yeah. But

22:33

that is because I'm gonna pick Marcus at full-back.

22:35

Okay. So Finn Smith, Finn Smith is

22:37

gonna have a good run for England at Portugal, bot there.

22:40

Just the next run up the ladder. Yeah, of course,

22:43

that's probably the most pragmatic decision as opposed

22:45

to just starting against Italy, how I was gonna do. Bet

22:49

the house. But also, if we could start Finn Smith now if we

22:51

were going 15. Yeah, this

22:53

is for Italy, obviously. I think

22:56

he's gonna have more,

22:59

he's got more time on the ball. I think we

23:01

saw a glimpse of what he can do for full-back

23:03

when he's got space to run back at and how

23:05

well he can identify space. I

23:08

think he's obviously got a good boot on

23:10

him. And I just

23:12

think he gives you something, and

23:14

this is no slight because Freddie Stuard is, because

23:16

if you're playing Ireland, Freddie Stuard's in all day

23:19

long. But I just think

23:21

for this game and for a couple of other games,

23:24

he's a very good option

23:26

for this. Okay. Good

23:30

evening. We interrupt this party political nonsense

23:32

to bring you some breaking news at

23:34

a critical point of this podcast record.

23:36

Because as Mike and James were selecting

23:39

England 15 from what we

23:41

were told was a fully fit squad,

23:43

we've obviously pre-produced, packaged up, and had

23:45

a show ready to go into

23:48

your ear balls for Wednesday morning. But just before

23:50

the show went to air, unfortunately

23:52

three key members of the fourth week's

23:55

original squad have pulled out. Ollie Lawrence,

23:57

who's had a great season so far for Baugh, Oscar Deane.

24:00

who unfortunately has to come to concussion, and Luke

24:02

Coward Dickey has done well to play a

24:04

traditional fitness and take his place back

24:06

in the Miss Quad once again. As

24:08

a result of these whistles, it has

24:10

left our team in absolute disarray. And

24:12

so, with, by the moment's

24:15

losses, Mike Tillman has pulled over from his

24:17

similar home, internally lay by,

24:19

and we've selected a backline. The

24:22

phone has broken up at several

24:24

junctures during this conversation, but we

24:27

think Mike has picked a backline

24:29

constituting of the following. Ags Mitchell, already

24:31

in at nine, George Ford, will remain

24:33

at ten, and here he gets a

24:35

lively, because Mike has picked an annual

24:37

favour, both served on one week for

24:39

his debut, and he's picked

24:42

Tommy Freeman, who wear twelve, the first time

24:44

we understand he's ever worn that shirt, certainly

24:46

at international levels. Good luck to Ed O'Daney,

24:48

who will hold the whole thing together at

24:51

thirteen, a position that he hasn't played too

24:53

much before England, although a position he has

24:55

wanted to play a lot more for his

24:58

country. Will Muir straight in

25:00

from the outside of the squad to start

25:02

on the other wing, which means we now

25:04

have two debutants at eleven and fourteen, but

25:06

the good news is, a lot of experience

25:08

at the past, where Marcus Smith will learn

25:11

his third cat at full back.

25:14

Once again, the breaking news, Mike Tindall

25:16

has selected Alex Mitchell, George Ford, Emmanuel

25:18

Faye Woboso, and Will Muir on the

25:20

wings, Marcus Smith at fifteen, Tommy

25:23

Freeman, and Elliot Daly will

25:25

wear the shirts of twelve and thirteen.

25:28

I think we can safely assume at this point

25:30

that the abuse will be heavily incoming. I

25:32

think it's a relief to all of us that

25:35

Mike Tindall is not in charge of the

25:37

England team's selection. We wish that back

25:39

on the very boost of luck, if that is what

25:41

it is to be for the Realm One game against

25:43

Italy in the 2024 Guinness Six Nations. I

25:47

don't think we've ever preached that we know

25:49

too much about the game, and this probably

25:51

is the show that once and for all

25:53

fully confirms. That is

25:55

it from this very short and very

25:57

quick bit of breaking news. now

26:00

return to the studio for

26:02

the rest of the show.

26:04

Thank you for your answers.

26:30

Those are the coming men of fragrance. Should

26:32

we go to the going man from Wales,

26:34

Louis Rees-Zamet, who is obviously off to the

26:37

NFL, to the International Player Pathway. Do we

26:39

like the move? Are we excited for him

26:41

or is it a damaging day for rugby?

26:45

I think, you know, getting to

26:47

know him in Monaco, he's that

26:49

type of guy, obviously his

26:51

missus has got 1.8 million

26:53

followers on Insta and

26:56

I think it's

26:58

the right time for him. He's 22 years old. I

27:00

came up with a bit of a left winger that he

27:03

could do this 10 weeks and then he could

27:05

possibly just go do a year at college or

27:08

try and do a college thing and if he was

27:10

really serious about it, he could try and go through

27:13

the college system first and

27:15

see how he gets on and have some real sort of take

27:18

on that. But that depends on how he

27:20

does this 10 weeks. If he

27:22

goes well in the 10 weeks and a team knocks

27:24

on his door and says we want you on a

27:27

practice squad, I think straight away your practice squad money

27:29

is between 250,000, 350,000

27:31

a year anyway. So suddenly he's

27:33

not really taking it, I know it's dollars, so he's taking

27:35

a little bit of a hit but for

27:38

a chance to be your

27:41

FEA bar that we've had on the pod and

27:43

suddenly be a free agent and re-open for big

27:45

cash then it's worthwhile doing. Where's he going to

27:47

play? You watch a lot of this, where's he going to play?

27:50

It's actually a really difficult question

27:53

to answer that. He's what,

27:55

he's 6'3 maybe? So

27:58

it depends on his vertical. which is all

28:00

we found out in the end of this 10

28:03

weeks when they put them through sort of,

28:05

it's like a, I think it's a mini combine.

28:09

He is lightning. Now people, I've been on

28:11

a group where people have actually questioned, yeah,

28:14

but he's not NFL fast. I

28:16

believe he is NFL fast. So if you

28:18

look at Christian Wade, he

28:20

ran a four, five, three,

28:23

40 meter, 40 yard. Big

28:26

difference, we do 40 meters over here. We do 40 yard,

28:28

which is obviously four

28:31

yards shorter. It's called a great trial of weekend,

28:33

but I agree. Yeah, and. Still

28:35

got it. I

28:38

believe, having spoken to Johnny

28:40

about this, and he

28:42

said that Zams run a 40

28:45

meter in under four, six. So

28:50

he's gonna be coming in, I would imagine in the

28:52

low 4.4s, which is quick. Right.

28:56

The average for the NFL is 4.48. I

28:59

mean, we're talking, this is what the NFL is, it's

29:01

just numbers that get thrown at you. So he would

29:03

be above the average of a week. As

29:07

quick as an average. Yeah, the fastest I

29:09

saw that still is a 4.2.2, I think,

29:12

which is unbelievable, but I've never heard of

29:14

the name. So he obviously could

29:16

run fast, but he couldn't. So

29:18

the 10 weeks will be about learning route

29:20

running, how to route run, how to shake

29:23

it off. My question with him is, what

29:25

I say is a physical, is he physical?

29:28

Cause you have to be now, as

29:30

a wide receiver, you've got to have

29:32

that physicality at the line, to either

29:34

get separation or to play

29:36

your role in holding off a, you

29:38

know, what, if there's a run play going your way,

29:40

you have to be able to block as well. So

29:42

that's gonna, they're gonna be the tricky things for him.

29:45

And then if you get picked up after that 10

29:47

weeks, becomes the X's and they was about learning all

29:49

the packages and everything that goes in with that. What

29:51

I spoke to question Wade about, when

29:53

he was over there, is actually just the fact

29:56

that you are training specifically, A,

29:58

for 10 weeks to perform. a

30:00

combine. So in rugby,

30:03

truthfully, we overtrain these guys, these

30:05

outside backs, you know, you can

30:07

attest to this, doing actual speed

30:09

work, pure speed to train for

30:11

a 40 yard dash, you

30:13

just wouldn't do it. There are heavy

30:15

workloads, so I've not studied on what Gloucesters

30:17

train like, but I would say if it's

30:19

any experience I've had, teams overtrain, it's hard,

30:22

it's attritional, the premiership, you know, international duty,

30:24

the ability to become a pure athlete is

30:26

not there. So when you are taken out

30:28

and distilled into a T-test,

30:31

into, you know, vertical jump,

30:33

into all these kind of things, these are just

30:35

really kind of athletic skills and you're not getting

30:37

bogged down with play after play. Do remember when

30:39

an NFL player, you know, you're working for a

30:41

very short period of time, if you do a drive and you're trying

30:44

to be continuous, that's the hardest bit. I mean, I

30:46

spoke to Hayden Smith about the

30:48

NFL because during I was 23,

30:50

sorry, I got

30:52

spoke to you at NFL Europe, I wanted to

30:55

go off and pursue it, I got an agent,

30:57

I was talking to everyone and then I ended up having to have knee

31:00

surgery and I made the decision that I was on

31:02

a good salary at WOS, it was too

31:04

much of a hard sell to be able to

31:06

do it, I wanted to just go and do... Would

31:09

you be on a quarterback? A

31:11

linebacker is what I would have... A punter? A linebacker

31:13

is what I wanted to do, or a tight end

31:15

potentially, but a linebacker is what I would have wanted

31:17

to do, just smoking people, wouldn't have had to talk

31:19

about anything else apart from doing that, but these people

31:22

have been living and breathing it, and remember, sometimes

31:25

this is an opportunity for people to come out

31:27

of poverty, out of... to change their lives, to

31:29

play it for a lifetime. You're playing at NFL

31:31

with the details, every hard knocks series you ever

31:33

watch, the playbook's bigger than the Bible, the attention

31:35

to detail, learning just to

31:38

get past someone's hands and the way you spin

31:40

and the way you set your feet and the

31:42

way you carry the ball. If you don't carry

31:44

the ball correctly, they'll just shout at you. So

31:46

I actually think it's a really positive move for

31:48

Louis Rieszam. I think it's brilliant, I think it's

31:50

exciting. I think if anybody can do it, at

31:52

22 years old, he can

31:54

bug around... It's the right time to try it. Yeah,

31:56

he can bug around this for two years, come back,

31:58

still not being his prime. Still own a

32:00

fortune. No rugby inside out will become a better

32:03

athlete Yeah, he's gonna be a better athlete Will

32:05

be a pure athlete because of it

32:07

will be more well-traveled Hopefully got some cash and

32:09

will have picked up a few skills on the

32:11

way and will have raised his profile I can't

32:13

I think Christian Wade was too old going off

32:15

and doing it You know when you these guys

32:18

begin to college I think tins his idea is

32:20

amazing do that 10-week pathway between

32:22

being put in a practice squad Which seems great but

32:24

half his but it's never made it make it go

32:26

off and do it do a season paying

32:28

for a hundred Go

32:33

into a Masters for a year. Why did you go into play

32:35

you for a 60 to 100 thousand college? You

32:40

can get paid Paid

32:43

now college so you can make money off

32:45

of it carve up learn the game inside

32:47

out come back into NFL cash money's Dominate

32:49

I love all of that, but Lewis not

32:52

all of us have to suck sack off

32:54

our way Like

32:58

yeah, you know college right for you. They

33:00

love love school. What did Gloucester say? I

33:04

think I think there was I think there

33:07

was a lot of Um in an aring

33:09

because I think of the lateness of the approach

33:11

to the possibility of doing this and the fastness

33:14

Of whether he had a long time making

33:16

the decision but the turnaround from obviously gaps

33:18

having to delay his way You

33:22

just lost your Yeah,

33:24

so I look there's an

33:26

issue there he's got to buy himself out

33:29

of his contract obviously he's contracted to Gloucester

33:31

So there is a legal ramification which he

33:33

must have agreed. Well, I know he's agreed

33:35

with Gloucester But

33:37

that so that shows that he's he's

33:40

confident. He wants to do it. I mean he's put

33:42

a lot of pressure on himself So unless someone's he's

33:45

bought himself out or someone else has bought

33:47

himself out of the contract So

33:50

well, whatever that deal was done there So

33:53

that puts a bit of pressure on so, you know, he's

33:56

He wants to do it and fair play to him.

33:58

It's the perfect time for him to go and try

34:00

this. I think it's the right age, I think he's got

34:02

the right skill sets to go and give it a, you

34:04

know, and best of luck to him. And worst case scenario

34:07

for us and rugby is he

34:09

comes back a better athlete for us to

34:11

watch on the biggest stages again. Yeah.

34:13

Interesting. Harry Malander, who many of you will

34:15

remember from Northampton, he's actually been out in

34:17

Japan as well, and Dara Leda of Conocht

34:20

are both into the player pathway as well, both

34:23

as kickers. Kickers. Yeah, that's even a mega job.

34:25

I mean, it's a bit... It's

34:27

a ruthless job. Yeah, a ruthless job. Yeah, if

34:29

you don't make them two points, you're stuffed. But

34:32

what a job. Paid mega cash, you don't get

34:34

filled in. Unless you remember there's that punch up.

34:38

Should you connect Harry with the Scottish claymore

34:40

or... Yeah. The hammer. The hammer. The Scottish

34:42

hammer. Is he still going well? Yeah, he's

34:44

still... Yeah, he's still hammering it. He's still

34:46

in the giants, yeah. Interesting you look at

34:48

some of the other names. You mentioned Hayden

34:50

Smith, who made the NFL active roster and

34:52

then rejoined Sarries. Jared Hayne, obviously played eight

34:55

times in the NFL for San Francisco 49ers

34:57

before things went a little

34:59

off the rails. Alex Gray,

35:01

Atlanta Falcons now in gladiators

35:04

as Apollo. It's a real weird thing

35:08

to make that active squad, but then still to give

35:10

it up because there is a lot of just

35:13

standing around and not having any game time. Do

35:16

you know what they said? I

35:18

watched some interview the other day that said,

35:20

obviously, in the way the week

35:23

works, you've got your starters, they run most

35:26

of the routes, so they'll

35:28

get the plays. It's all about reps. All the reps.

35:30

You might get one or two reps, but then everyone

35:32

complains about them. But if you ran those reps, someone's

35:34

saying, if you ran those reps, it's like they would do or

35:37

die the biggest moment of your life. You just run it and

35:39

execute it. That's kind of the way you do it. You see

35:41

the people who are like, chip away

35:43

at it and they've got the mental

35:45

ability to deliver and wait. They'll make

35:47

it. So I'm excited. Christian Scott Williamson,

35:50

I think made it to the Pittsburgh Steelers, but

35:52

I think now has gone into little Christian where you've

35:55

touched on. Jordan Milata is the big poster

35:57

boy for rugby into... in

36:01

the NFL he was a rabbitos under 20 player

36:03

has now won a Super Bowl with

36:05

the Philadelphia Eagles. Interesting I saw him

36:07

on the Kelsey Brothers podcast it could

36:09

be saying he thought NFL players were

36:12

tougher than rugby players. They

36:14

were tougher. He would say that. I would say that well no he's

36:16

got to say that but also I think people always forget about this

36:18

with 64 million dollar

36:20

contract. What I would do with that? You

36:23

wouldn't survive a

36:25

week. I

36:30

think NFL players are tougher. They're getting

36:32

hit 360 degree. They

36:34

don't know where it's coming from. If you're on the

36:36

front line you're pushing you could get

36:38

run into at the back of your knee. You're

36:41

getting hit without the ball. You don't know where

36:43

it's coming from. Someone will fold your knee from

36:45

the side because there's just unpredictable collisions

36:47

just happening around you and you're trying to concentrate

36:49

on what you're doing. Plus

36:52

it's how I think

36:55

our league should be set up. It's a 16-week

36:57

season. Everyone plays best team

36:59

every single week and you go toe

37:02

to toe and the best will

37:04

survive and that's how I think our league should be

37:06

set up. There's no like junior leagues. It's just like.

37:08

You're in and you're out. This is it. Big

37:11

squad so they get through it. You know your

37:13

role. If you make it you make it. If

37:15

you don't you don't. Razzmatazz, cash monies, cheerleaders

37:19

and cheer men I imagine. Anything you want. Good

37:21

luck. Cheer them. We hope you're going

37:23

to have him on the pod again. I

37:26

mentioned it to him. He liked to come on.

37:28

He's just trying to. It's a good

37:30

thing that he said. He's like look I'd love to but

37:33

I'm head down for 10 weeks. So he's

37:36

going to go but he has said he'll send us

37:38

footage and mess and bobs. We'll

37:40

keep an eye on him and keep supporting

37:42

him as any way we can. Talking of

37:44

people who are heading to pastors new, Joe

37:46

Schmidt has taken on the role of Wallaby

37:49

head coach until after the

37:51

Lions talk. On paper it

37:53

looks a brilliant move. I went to the

37:57

Lions head coach announcement. Did you? Andy

37:59

Farrell. you were sort of back in the sweet

38:01

spot. But I asked a fairly stupid question which was what

38:04

sort of challenge do you expect from Australia for a

38:06

ship that looks utterly ruddless? But

38:08

a week later they take on Joe Schmidt

38:10

and suddenly it's like oh that's

38:12

got some Did you see that coming? I didn't

38:15

see that coming. I read a couple of bits

38:17

and bobs yeah talking about Stephen Larkin etc but

38:19

Schmidt was definitely being. Yeah I'd say when I

38:21

was in Australia I happened to be there was

38:23

someone from Ruby Australia there and and they

38:26

were saying that they were quite close to getting someone.

38:29

Really? And I was like I was

38:31

just trying to name that I didn't actually throw Joe

38:33

Schmidt out there. That's what I mean I never that

38:35

wasn't on the horizon talking about Dave Renee coming back

38:37

or somebody else. Yeah but everywhere he goes he makes

38:39

teams better so he's one top one. Was he still

38:41

part of New Zealand? I

38:44

think I know I think they were all done

38:46

off the rugby one. Right okay I didn't realise

38:48

that so I didn't even really thought about it

38:50

because I thought he was still in for that.

38:52

Right. Ian Foster and

38:55

I think Razor Robertson's bringing in a whole new crew

38:57

but if you look at what Schmidt's done he won

38:59

the top 14 with Claremont after years and years and

39:01

years of failure for Claremont. Backed

39:04

about hiding in cups with Leinster, 2011-12, Pro 12 title in 2013, three

39:09

Six Nations titles with Ireland including a ground

39:11

slam, turned them to number one in the world in

39:13

2019 and then a runner up last

39:16

year obviously with the Rugby World Cup with the All

39:18

Blacks as a tack coach. There was

39:20

a really interesting line I thought from

39:22

Phil Warr who said Joe's experience with

39:24

Ireland and New Zealand, two of the

39:27

most aligned rugby nations in the world,

39:29

will no doubt be pretty valuable as

39:31

we move forward. So they've got

39:33

a man who's run a sort of centralised

39:36

team before but Christ he's got a

39:38

lot of work to do isn't he? Where did he start?

39:40

Look, but he's got

39:43

a pretty good blank canvas to go at. I

39:46

think he's also got to include the wide

39:49

egg. There's a grassroots problem over there

39:51

and I think he's got to get into those

39:54

rugby playing schools and he's got to

39:56

start trying to identify talent

39:59

as well. whilst

40:01

trying to just get that young group of

40:03

players that he's got singing

40:05

off the same hymnsheet. Do you stick

40:07

with what Eddie Jones did at the World Cup

40:09

in removing the likes of Michael Hooper and Wade

40:11

Cooper? Looking at what he did with Ireland, I

40:13

don't think he'll do that. I think he'll try

40:15

and get some experience

40:18

in there. He'll get his back. He'll

40:20

get his back. Yeah, he'll get the MLR. I'm not sure

40:22

he'll necessarily go that far back in the game. I think,

40:25

I still think Hooper's got a lot to

40:27

offer the game, I think.

40:29

Eddie said that he was bad for the

40:31

group, which I can't believe in any why

40:34

he would say that. So

40:37

I think they'll try and lean

40:39

on some experience, whether

40:42

it be Ben and Foley, just try

40:44

and help Carter Gordon or whatever. But

40:47

I think he's got two big jobs. That's

40:50

to reconnect the grassroots with the Wallabies. Very

40:52

hard to be done. It's sort of owned

40:54

by the NRL and the AFL

40:56

at the moment. And then

40:59

he's got to find, I don't think

41:01

he's not got the Irish team that he had

41:04

in the past, where he could just try and

41:06

stabilise everything and build the building blocks that he

41:08

did for Ireland in terms of how they played and everything

41:10

else. And he's got a

41:13

meticulous kick, Jay. Yeah. So

41:16

he's going to try and do that, but if

41:18

he's going to have this young team, he's got to make

41:20

use of that youth as well. I

41:23

think it's a challenge for Joe

41:25

Schmidt, but I think everywhere Joe Schmidt's gone, he's actually

41:27

had success. And I don't think

41:29

he has, if you were to

41:31

talk about, say, Warren Gatlin, for example, he has quite a blueprint of

41:34

the way he does things. Joe Schmidt, obviously

41:36

with Ireland, was the most recent, well, New Zealand

41:38

was the most recent thing, but again, they're a

41:40

completely different outfit the way they play in their

41:42

ability. Ireland, they became

41:44

very good at particular things. I think what

41:46

he offers is a real stabilisation ship, very

41:48

controlling about the media, very controlling about what

41:50

the players say and kind of manages it.

41:54

Very meticulous over detail. And

41:56

I think it's exactly what Australia

41:58

needs. quality coach I'll

42:00

be very interested to see what style of play

42:02

he brings because again I think he's probably a

42:05

believer in picking a style that suits your team as opposed

42:07

to going this is the only way I can play if

42:10

I don't coach it I don't know how to coach it

42:12

so I couldn't think of a better person to do the

42:14

job really. It's one of those stories

42:16

not really my story to tell but Shane Hawken tells a brilliant

42:18

story about being in a team meeting with Leinster and

42:21

they go through analysis on the big screen and all the players are

42:23

sort of sitting around and he's going through and he's just

42:26

really sort of on point and

42:28

some of things are ball at Brano Driscoll which is

42:30

sort of down at his boot laces he doesn't quite

42:32

take it and he just stops it he goes great

42:35

players take that and just goes oh wow so like

42:39

literally no one would say. The other thing that I think is

42:41

really interesting is that Australia

42:47

at their best are such a detailed

42:49

team they play rugby

42:51

with real high IQ and he is exactly that

42:53

of the coach. When I played for the highless

42:55

that was the interesting kind of thing. New

42:58

Zealand with the hybrid unbelievable athletes ability

43:00

to when they did beat you would

43:02

often score physical. South Africa by far

43:04

away the most physical. Australian

43:06

side is very very systematic and if you could

43:08

interfere with the system they were three phases ahead

43:10

so if you stopped them the players were already

43:12

around the corner so you could then take the

43:14

space elsewhere so that's how you could interrupt them

43:16

so they've obviously gone away from that a little

43:18

bit. I mean look I think the game's moved

43:20

on from that they

43:25

were so analytical you go back to the

43:27

Institute of Sport they were miles ahead and

43:29

then having the games moved on

43:31

a little bit so but you

43:34

can take credit and I

43:36

don't think Joe Smit's gonna go off the

43:38

radar like Eddie and he's

43:40

still gonna build building

43:43

blocks but then what

43:45

I'm really interested is if he takes

43:47

on the spirit of the youth and finds them

43:50

because they've got some unbelievable players. That

43:53

Lions tour has suddenly got a really

43:55

really juicy subplot to it now. in

44:00

tour is bought. Yeah we are. We

44:02

will. Yeah. Okay, so

44:04

let's go from Joe Schmidt then, good luck,

44:06

particularly in the bladders though this year. That's

44:09

something got a lovely little subplot to

44:12

it as well. Investict Champions Cup. Yes. And

44:14

it sort of adds to the, I'm

44:16

going to use the word bounce back ability, which I

44:18

think was coined by Ian Dowie on Soccer Saturday about

44:20

20 years ago. It adds to

44:23

the bounce back ability of rugby in this country. Well Alan

44:25

Partridge needed to say I had the last laugh and definitely

44:27

bounced back. Aha, there's that too. We've

44:29

got six of the eight English teams into the

44:31

round of 16, which is something the game

44:34

desperately needs in this country. Why? It's

44:37

a bit of

44:39

a, it's

44:42

a bit of, is it, what's

44:44

the word I'm looking for? Research.

44:46

Yeah, and reinforcement of wearing

44:50

the rubberwork out, how strong I

44:52

think the Premiership's been. But

44:54

for years we've looked good at

44:56

Premiership level and then haven't stepped up in the Champions

44:59

Cup. I know the

45:01

new format allows a little bit of

45:04

jeopardy to find a way. You can find a way.

45:07

I mean some teams have lost two,

45:09

maybe there might even be one in there

45:11

that's lost three. So yeah, you know, it

45:13

affords a little bit of a fortune,

45:16

but I think

45:18

it's been incredible to watch. Here's a question for

45:20

you. Are we seeing a better standard

45:22

of rugby in the Premiership now with down to

45:24

10 teams? Rather

45:27

than that talent stretched across 12. Well,

45:30

is that mumbling over an aid? Do

45:35

you think about the players who

45:38

have left Wasp's London

45:40

Irish Worcester and

45:44

have gone into the other Premiership teams? A

45:47

lot of them have stranked out. Machanda Cunningham-South, who we've

45:49

spoken about in the England squad, is one of them

45:51

who went from London Irish to Quinn through the Kingdom.

45:53

Well London Irish were a good team, weren't they? Yeah,

45:55

I'm posing. Yeah. We've got a

45:57

tighter concentration of talent now in 10 teams.

46:00

and we now have 16th into the last 15th.

46:03

We've always been banging on about less teams, less

46:05

games, more intensity, bigger squads. Teams

46:07

are playing well, I think it goes to

46:09

show, we're mixing Europe. The gap, again, it

46:11

goes against the big exodus and panic and

46:13

all the stuff in France are too

46:16

good for us. I'd be interested in what

46:18

happens when we get to the finals, but budgets are too

46:20

big, we can't compete. I don't believe that. I

46:22

think the tree would just love a little negative story.

46:25

I think clubs

46:27

have enjoyed not having

46:29

to go home and away in

46:32

all the games in the Champions Cup. I

46:35

think they've quite enjoyed just going on those one-off

46:37

games and we've seen everyone just lay it out

46:39

there. There have been a lot of close games.

46:42

I want those back-to-back games though. Back to the

46:44

end. I know three and four was so good.

46:47

But you actually are now having back-to-back games

46:49

because a lot of them are playing each

46:51

other in the last 16 or whatever. Now

46:54

whether that's... I wasn't sure when I

46:56

was going through it. Is that a

46:59

joy or is that... Yeah, so

47:01

you've got Leicester going to Leinster, Northampton,

47:05

which was an unbelievable game of

47:07

the weekend. So you have Bordeaux,

47:09

Saris, which is another repeat. You've

47:13

got LeBoules and Lyons, which is a repeat. You've

47:15

got Stormers La Rochelle, which is

47:17

a repeat of obviously La Rochelle having to go

47:19

back out there and try and sort

47:22

of redeem themselves. Now does

47:24

that make it interesting or does that make it... I'm

47:26

not sure where I sit with it. Because

47:29

I did read something the other day about

47:31

why don't we... Nick

47:33

Mullins was saying why don't we do it in an old FA. And

47:36

I love that. I like that idea. It's a whole different cold ball

47:38

that used to be. So you could rig the... Rig

47:40

the... Traw. Really?

47:43

It used to warm the balls, apparently allegedly back in the

47:45

day. So you would do a cold

47:47

ball followed by a hot ball. Really? Yeah,

47:50

apparently. Hot balls, cold balls. That's a massive shout

47:52

there. I let you leave. Anyway,

47:55

let's not do hot balls and cold balls.

47:57

But Nick Mullins... I think it's a great

47:59

idea. I just... say this though, just

48:01

one caveat to this, England are

48:03

playing great but when you saw Bath

48:05

for example playing against Toulouse, Toulouse

48:08

was pretty amazing. I

48:11

think when we get down to those final

48:14

games, that's perhaps when you're going to see

48:16

the flecks of it, you know the bulls,

48:18

the flecks, I think you know Bordeaux obviously

48:20

what they, what you know the taking Saracett

48:23

apart like they did was pretty mad. I

48:25

think you know Northampton Munster, what

48:27

lessons have we learnt? There's very few chances. Yeah and obviously

48:29

we've got the 6th of

48:31

the 8th in the last 16th but in the

48:33

old format it would go straight into a quarter

48:35

finals wouldn't it? So let's see how

48:37

many are left in the quarter finals. Calm down.

48:42

Calm down. The Conti question of

48:44

the week actually ties into the

48:46

Investik Champions Cup which is what

48:48

was your take on the red

48:50

cards in the Champions Cup this

48:52

weekend? There are a

48:55

couple of them kicking about actually, Northampton's curse

48:57

is Langdon, Bristol's Josh Caulfield. Any

49:00

strong views on that? Well my snapshot

49:02

is ridiculous. Right okay. That

49:04

was the Conti question of the week. But

49:07

I just think what, I'm just not sure

49:09

what we are now is what we're trying

49:11

to prove as a game is that something

49:14

that is completely accidental

49:16

but if someone gets hurt with it, it's

49:18

now a red card. Is that

49:20

really where we're going to go with the game? Red

49:23

cards are supposed to be for malice

49:26

or supposed to be for intentional stuff.

49:30

The Beelam boot to the

49:33

face, he takes one in his

49:35

face as he's doing it which completely changes

49:37

his, Carl Sinclair

49:39

basically judo chops him in the chin and

49:42

as he's trying to step over someone and basically

49:44

get rocks in backwards so his step isn't as

49:46

long and he catches someone else in the eye

49:48

and it's just like it's the most bizarre,

49:56

and someone's got to go there in the instant. I

50:00

think you should give him a yellow card. It's

50:04

just like, wow that's unlucky. Well I know that, but

50:06

there's a deal he ended up getting up and there's

50:09

nothing really wrong with him. Is it

50:11

just that it hits him in the head? It's

50:13

a whole head thing. This is ridiculous. It's getting

50:15

to a point where it is ridiculous now. Yes

50:18

we've got to be safe, but you

50:20

have to understand this game is, if

50:22

you went through with a fine tooth

50:24

comb in slo-mo every part of this

50:26

game, you'd find, you'd know

50:28

it would be on the field. I saw one

50:31

bit before. It'd be like, if we could possibly get

50:33

15 from the crowd to come and join in, everyone's

50:35

in the bin. You'd have to be

50:37

a complete serial killer to think you could stamp on

50:39

someone's head and do it. If you

50:41

think about that Northampton game where Sam Graham

50:43

scores that try at the end and Antoine Frisch slides

50:46

it in for no, literally there is

50:49

no reason for him to even slide with his

50:51

knees in front of him. If you're going to

50:53

try and stop the ball, dive it in with

50:55

your head and your arms, and

50:57

yet he catches him in the chin, Sam

51:00

Graham doesn't really make a big deal of it. He

51:02

obviously clips him because he stays down for a little

51:05

bit and then nothing is looked at that. This

51:08

is where it's getting ridiculous. Neither

51:13

of those, in my opinion, are yes, they both

51:16

ended up injured. Now it seems to me if

51:18

someone ends up injured it's definitely foul play. You

51:22

play a very, very physical game that accidents

51:26

happen and for

51:29

the reason for a red card to say, the

51:32

first one was clearly accidental,

51:34

the second one we can't really figure out

51:37

but the player's injured so it's a red card. When

51:40

did the game get there? I don't know. Thank

51:42

you Davey96 for starting that part. That was

51:44

our content for question of the week to

51:47

be continued on a week by week basis,

51:49

I would imagine. Can I just go

51:51

back to that? I was just thinking, but shouldn't that

51:53

be a point where you can put someone on a

51:55

report and they can look into it a bit more?

51:57

Great shout. I don't know what, do you know what?

52:00

I've honestly got one question. I don't understand

52:02

how world rugby can still operate And

52:06

they just still can't make any of these decisions

52:08

It is it would be the easiest thing no

52:10

contact in training Manager's we time off

52:12

get rid of some of these crack tournaments and make

52:14

her a fucking report card. It's the One

52:17

of them has just been given another night

52:19

bit knighthood for his extra extension Renighted.

52:21

Renighted. Double knighthood. Triple knighthood. I know. What

52:24

what just just fucking make a decision It's

52:26

not hard. I don't understand how you

52:28

don't change it. Yeah, the knife of

52:30

the round table But then the dah dah dah

52:33

Just bring it on it would change

52:35

the game Why can't NRL a game

52:37

that notoriously has more violence than we

52:39

do is still operating? Still a

52:41

cool game to watch more fun more exciting still

52:43

a lot of violence in it And they put

52:45

me on a report. Why can't we do something

52:48

like that? We're trying to paint the picture of

52:50

the comeback here Let's not pretend you know I

52:52

just mean why can't you why can rugby never

52:54

make any fucking decision? Why can't it never do

52:56

anything at all time? Can we get

52:58

everything because if if Northampton lost that game

53:01

in the red card, you know, they still turn

53:03

around managed to end up winning it but A

53:06

travesty if you lose a game just because

53:08

you've lost a player for something. That's absolute

53:10

bollocks and accident. Okay Black

53:13

out of weeks you want to throw that out there? Phil

53:17

Bowman Triple

53:20

nighting. I thought triple night was when you pissed

53:22

shit and was sick on yourself Right,

53:26

I've never heard that. I've never heard that

53:28

before Look at that Japan

53:33

Nobody fought someone, right? Could you please give

53:35

me a black eye of the week? You're

53:38

the you Every

53:41

week a bottle goes to someone who's celebrating positive reasons or

53:43

somebody needs to pick me up Uh,

53:46

well, I'll throw out a finn smith

53:48

drop wheel. Yeah Lovely touch there's

53:51

a man. I love that. I was gonna say that was a

53:53

tip of my tongue Congratulations

53:56

to you black-eyed gins available from amazon

53:58

selected Sainsbury's and master of more It

54:00

has botanicals from every major rugby playing nation. One

54:02

very special ingredient as well. One

54:05

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54:07

fund, which is aiming to raise a million pounds a year to

54:09

help with the areas of risk, research, and recovery within the game

54:11

of Rogue Union. Swap a beer for

54:13

your gin and tonic and help the game you love.

54:15

It is seriously good stuff as well. Thank you to

54:17

everybody who's bought bottles and been involved with that. We've

54:19

got a couple of other bits to do very quickly.

54:22

Live show, let's tell you about that, because

54:24

the six stations are imminent. And next Monday,

54:26

the 29th of January, you can join us

54:28

at the Underbelly Boulevard in Soho for

54:30

a one-off live recording of the Good, the Bad

54:33

and the Rugby. It is the Guinness Six Nations

54:35

preview with special guests Ben Caser from France, John

54:37

Fox Davis from Wales, Rory Lawson

54:39

of Scotland, and Shane Hawgan of Ireland. And James

54:42

Haskill from Italy. And James Haskill from Italy. Head

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to underbellyboulevard.com, full slash tickets, full slash the Good,

54:46

the Bad and the Rugby. I'm sure hopefully someone

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will stick a link in the

54:51

T's and C's of this. If

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you haven't caught up with the Good, Scouse Rugby team yet

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in 2024, do go and have a

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little listen and look at their recent content with

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the girls have also been shortlisted for

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or a watch to the episode with Jodie

55:21

Aunty. The Jodie Aunty is a good episode.

55:23

That is a very good episode. They

55:26

bet we, they're bloody awesome. Actually they should win. I'd

55:28

love to. I got

55:30

a few messages from. From Scouse. Yeah,

55:32

Scouse. Very excited about the Jins. And

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please do vote for the match as

55:36

well at the sportspodcastgroup.com four slash sports

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55:41

Enjoy your rugby this weekend. We have been good

55:44

to Bad and the Rugby in partnership with our

55:46

very good friends at ConTidal Tires, Staffs and Facts

55:48

provided by Oval Insights and Tom Edwards at the

55:50

point he was awake. We're holding pocket production and

55:52

this episode was produced by Tom Edwards. See you

55:54

next week. You've

56:01

been listening to The Good,

56:03

The Bad, and The

56:06

Rugby with Alex Payne, James

56:08

Haskell and Mike Tyndall. Thanks

56:10

for listening. It's

56:17

to warm the balls, apparently

56:19

allegedly back in the day, so you

56:21

would do a cold ball followed by a hot

56:24

ball. Really? Yeah, apparently. Hot balls, cold balls. That's

56:26

a massive shout there. I mean, I don't know

56:28

if the legal team's got that at go through.

56:30

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