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0:36

Hello,

0:57

Dream Team. Welcome along to another episode of The

0:59

Good, The Bad, and The Rugby, brought to you by our very

1:01

good friends at Continental Tyres. For

1:04

all of the amazing stories that came out of France 2023,

1:06

there were two big names

1:08

missing from the big party in France,

1:11

and that, of course, was Canada and the USA.

1:14

And so today, we've brought together, and I'm going to give this to you

1:16

as a compliment, I think the two most recognizable

1:18

faces in Canadian

1:20

and US rugby, the great Gareth

1:22

Rees and Dan Lyle. It's lovely to have you with us. But in some

1:24

ways, that's also a compliment. It's also, in

1:26

some ways, a bit of a worry as well, because, with

1:28

the greatest respect, it's been one or two years since you last

1:31

put your jockstrap on. Yeah, and there's only one person

1:33

here who's played with them both. Well, there you are. It

1:35

makes you old as well. It makes me really old. Yeah,

1:37

it does.

1:39

Two big names missing from France 2023, and we're going

1:41

to get into the state of Canadian and US rugby

1:44

over the next hour or so. But first of all, how are you? Well,

1:46

very well. Yeah, fantastic time in France. What

1:48

great hosts they were. My 10th edition

1:50

of a World Cup in various forms. And

1:53

you're right, it was pretty sad that we weren't there. A few

1:55

reasons for it, but a great celebration

1:57

of the game that happens every time we have a World Cup.

1:59

It's great and when you're in a market just

2:02

like Dan and I are People see

2:04

like quarterfinal weekend was just special and

2:06

even people don't know rugby They loved it and

2:08

they love the stories and the scenes. So it was it's

2:11

pretty cool to be a part of it How are you?

2:12

Good? He

2:19

taught me a lot yeah good bad and the ugly right

2:24

Yeah NBC

2:26

had great numbers. I do a lot

2:28

of work for them You

2:31

know online and linear television for

2:33

the World Cup So, you know in spite

2:36

despite us not being

2:38

there there was there are 30 million Identifiable

2:41

fans in the United States Wow in

2:44

the expat world and the rugby world

2:47

I saw so many Americans

2:49

sat next to randoms, you

2:51

know at the World Cup Walking

2:53

around Paris and walking around the other cities.

2:55

There are a lot of Americans there the legends

2:57

guys Not the legends

3:00

but the legends that sell the merchandise They

3:03

said the second most

3:05

profitable market for them is the United

3:07

States And they were missing the United States

3:10

in this World Cup on the ground by

3:12

way of merchandise sales so as

3:14

an American that lovers loves our stats

3:16

and obviously I'm Going

3:19

to that We

3:21

had a good World Cup as

3:23

far as a not being there

3:26

and all the Bad thing that

3:28

you got that go with that but certainly

3:31

there is a you know a Horizon

3:34

that is really apparent. I Randomly

3:38

I sat next to in both semis

3:42

Semis and quarters something someone from

3:44

America one from South Carolina and

3:46

one from Arizona and I was like Why you

3:49

even hit this the role we love rugby So

3:51

what you guys don't realize is that without a six

3:53

nations or whatever you got in your country

3:55

North America This is it. This is the pinnacle and we need

3:57

to change that we need to have other pinnacle

4:00

Destination events so the South Carolina fan can

4:02

come support something on their own continent. That's

4:04

that's the issue I heard I heard something.

4:07

It's 3.9% of the USA

4:09

population are rugby fans When

4:11

which doesn't sound like much but then you put it into 400

4:14

million people. It's almost 16 million

4:16

people

4:17

Who love rugby and if you put 16 million

4:19

people on a rugby geographic

4:22

map?

4:23

That's just the biggest country in the world I

4:25

think I think I think France is 14 million

4:28

biggest and I think England's about

4:31

12 I think so you suddenly you

4:33

go well, it's an untapped. Why

4:35

are we here? Why haven't we engaged?

4:38

Why are they not on it because

4:40

that's the biggest question all good questions. Let's

4:42

get into that But just before we do that, I mean one

4:45

of the great themes of this one has been the color brought

4:47

by Chile and Portugal Yeah Uruguay, etc

4:50

Canada specifically did

4:52

not make this year's rugby world cup because

4:55

they have fallen away or because others have

4:57

come up on the rails And they've taken them two

4:59

issues for me and you can't hide

5:01

from it. We're not here first time ever for Canada And

5:05

Kingsley Jones a head coach of Canada and Gary gold

5:07

the US head coach were dealt a shocking

5:09

hand Out of covid

5:11

where the teams literally hadn't been playing they hadn't assembled

5:14

had to go and qualify against Alexa Chilean And

5:17

it didn't come off for either country. So that's a fact

5:20

that's an excuse but it's in place What

5:23

it's also done is make us realize that underneath that the

5:25

development systems aren't there We need to do more someone

5:28

like Chile has been really well supported and you see

5:30

decent investment from world rugby They got

5:32

the results they came here and those boys were proud the

5:34

fans were fantastic and what a great Addition

5:37

to rugby world cup. So when there is investment

5:39

and a plan it can work So

5:42

there's MLR the major league rugby, which is

5:45

you know, it's functioning and it's it's alive

5:47

and well And it's great great 66

5:50

Canadians have jobs and you forget when down

5:52

our plan was hard to get a job Right and then

5:54

the next generation almost couldn't get a job in Europe. So

5:57

it's it's it's tough times But if

5:59

there's a plan There's investment then

6:01

then then it can happen. So it

6:03

was you know, it's great to see Chile there

6:05

Fiji look at Fiji I mean incredible investment

6:08

over seven eight years that paid off

6:10

and they're one of the stories of the tournament But but what

6:12

is the conversation because in

6:14

eight years time we're gonna be in the US So

6:17

what is the conversation with well, because I

6:19

was like it actually highlights the point

6:21

to me is

6:23

how

6:25

Your absence the two the

6:27

two countries how big you know,

6:29

everyone talks about what they put into Fiji

6:32

what they put into But

6:34

I feel that they don't want to invest in current

6:36

this is not my conspiracy theory They

6:38

don't want to invest in the US or Canada because

6:41

they're scared that if you if it actually

6:44

captures With the population that you have

6:46

with the athletes that you have and I'm one

6:49

of the best athletes I've ever seen Thanks

6:51

very much Sorry,

6:53

sorry Yeah,

6:55

if we say anything about you

7:04

What is that conversation like

7:06

because if the US turn up to the

7:08

party that's a game changer for the sport

7:10

That's a hell of a conspiracy theory. Is that any

7:13

validity in that that's grassy no stuff so

7:16

the Dallas Cowboys and England

7:19

and the all blacks know who they're gonna play from

7:21

the next hundred years, right the Tier

7:24

two nations in the United States and Canada

7:26

being the ones in the front Here

7:29

are don't know who they're gonna play, right?

7:31

So meaning we don't know

7:34

literally two three four months

7:36

ahead of time who we're gonna play so

7:38

you so naturally the system

7:40

below that is Just

7:42

scattered because they don't know when

7:45

and how and what so the

7:47

world will be job for

7:50

all the tier two nations as the back

7:52

of this World Cup and certainly has

7:54

been Just stating below

7:56

the surface is to give a schedule so

7:59

everyone talks about about tier one, tier one, tier one,

8:01

played the tier ones, right? We,

8:03

the United States, I think, do

8:06

the math, everyone out there, I think has

8:08

played Fiji three times

8:10

ever.

8:12

In 1998 in Suba, in 1999 in San Francisco, won that game.

8:18

And once in the 03 in the World Cup, when

8:20

we lost 1918, you know, in

8:23

Australia, it hasn't happened

8:25

for 20 years. And we're

8:27

just, you know, so that in itself,

8:30

if all the world is paying attention

8:33

on the tier ones that are out there

8:35

and make up world, I mean, it was like, Hey, hold

8:37

on here. The, now you add Samoa,

8:39

now you want Tonga, now you add Canada, now

8:42

you're on Japan, who are very

8:44

much all on the same boat, you put

8:46

a competition together and you'll

8:48

hear it now. It is about to be

8:50

put together. And that, if

8:52

you play 10 test matches a year, you

8:55

can begin to have a barometer. And

8:57

it's not a top down approach. I'm not saying that

9:00

right. But all the development, all the

9:02

grassroots, all the width

9:04

and depth of all of that stuff from

9:06

colleges to high schools, to everything

9:08

in between can start to fill in

9:11

within that structure. And that

9:14

is, and so if you include the July

9:16

internationals and November internationals,

9:18

whether that's a nation's cup, whether that's

9:21

whatever, the challenger series right

9:23

below that will include all

9:25

the nations that don't merit wise

9:28

deserve to be up there. Right. So I I'm

9:30

not able to

9:31

pound the drum for every

9:34

tier two to play every tier one multiple

9:36

times, it's still a meritocracy. It's

9:39

still about commercial viability.

9:41

Um, and so you have to dissect

9:44

it in that realm and start with

9:46

the, uh, start with the calendar. That's

9:48

it. And let me respond to that. Just on the tier one stuff. If

9:51

I want to go into Toronto or Vancouver and Montreal,

9:53

I needed tier one to do that, but that's not

9:55

the only thing we can bring in to Dan's point. There's other

9:58

meaningful competition with a plan. I need to. come back

10:00

next year and the year after and the year after. And

10:03

just one comment on sevens, cause

10:05

Dan has been a huge part of Vegas sevens, which was a

10:07

huge tournament, not only for

10:09

putting it on the map, getting NBC to the table, but

10:12

also having participation, all these

10:14

teams, 600 teams come in, fantastic.

10:16

Vancouver sevens, huge success for us. We

10:18

put 75,000 people in the stadium at

10:20

the end of February in a football stadium

10:23

in Vancouver. It's a great party, it's amazing.

10:25

If you haven't been there, you gotta go. There's my bet. Is

10:28

that official invite? Yeah, you're right, you're on. I

10:30

don't like a party, I don't like

10:32

to drink with anyone. But

10:35

the point being, because Vegas sevens,

10:37

or USA sevens as it is now, and Vancouver sevens,

10:40

had a plan and know that we're coming back next year, we've

10:42

built proper North American awesome

10:44

events. And we can do that if we're

10:46

given a plan, if we're given some

10:49

fixtures, and we're given a runway to do it.

10:52

Very, very interesting. I wanna come back to what it looks

10:54

like specifically for Canada and

10:57

US at the top level. You made

10:59

the really interesting point about top down. Can

11:01

you just give us an overview of what is happening in terms

11:03

of player numbers at the moment, and what the structures

11:06

look like for kids? We hear a lot about

11:09

those who don't make it into the NFL, get picked up and

11:11

they get given a go at rugby. What is actually happening

11:14

on the ground? So, combine what you

11:16

talked about before, so that the, and

11:18

Garth said, Chile, Uruguay,

11:20

Portugal, right?

11:23

Small geographies as far as

11:25

getting to and from, east to west

11:27

and so forth, right? Smaller playing

11:29

numbers, aggregation,

11:32

people to come together. So it's easier

11:34

to train your best and brightest, right? Yeah.

11:37

After a while. There is a steel reinforced ceiling

11:39

to that at some point, right? Because

11:41

you have to have a athletic metric

11:44

pie. How high do I jump? How

11:46

fast do I run? With a rugby pie, right?

11:48

You have to combine those together. And if

11:51

Joe Mahler or Vincent

11:53

Kalk are the best props in

11:55

the world, I'm not saying they are, but if

11:57

they are right, then what

11:59

do they?

11:59

rugby and metric pie look

12:02

like so that every Tom,

12:04

Dick and Harry that's out there that

12:06

wants to be a Lucid or a Tydad prop has

12:09

an aspiration to that. You

12:12

code those metrics. Now you fast

12:14

forward or put in self in America. There

12:18

are a thousand universities that play

12:20

a game, no lie. There's 600

12:23

men and 400 women's universities.

12:26

If there's 10 graduate

12:28

seniors a year, that's 6,022

12:29

year old per year.

12:33

They're sitting there. What

12:35

are they doing? I love that. What are

12:37

they doing? What are the 450, 400 women, 22 year

12:39

olds doing? The

12:43

problem is there's no place for them

12:45

to now go. So MLR

12:47

is one thing. Now imagine you

12:50

have a U18, U20 and

12:52

U23 system where they're

12:55

getting together on a regular basis every

12:58

summer. They're playing eight, 10, 12 games. That

13:03

money ball, Billy Bean thing that's out

13:05

there in the stratosphere, more

13:07

time together, more training. I

13:09

love Portugal, the soup du jour. It's

13:11

Chile and Portugal. So you get

13:13

together. The continent is not the

13:15

problem in America and Canada.

13:18

It's really the aggregation of

13:21

all that width and depth together.

13:23

So you get U18s playing more

13:25

often, U20s, U23s against

13:28

Canadians, against South Americans.

13:31

Real easy by way of logistics

13:34

to do, but none of that exists because

13:36

there's no, okay, I played one

13:38

year and the only test we

13:40

played was against Canada. I

13:43

played about five years like that. One year. How

13:47

many times has Samoa played? Eight, 12

13:50

times in four years? But we're talking

13:53

about the US here. Of

13:55

course, everyone can look at the fictionalist, et

13:57

cetera, but this is the US. of

14:00

opportunity. Why nobody to this

14:02

point. Let's start with the home

14:04

truth. We're our own worst enemy.

14:09

We have made so many mistakes because we're

14:11

amateur. And so the unlocking

14:14

of North America comes from a world

14:17

rugby tier one attention

14:19

span that is really business

14:21

minded, not just rugby minded. So

14:24

there's a difference between corporate

14:26

business and rugby

14:29

business. So bringing those two together, it's

14:31

very difficult to do in a geopolitical,

14:34

NGB, national governing body way. It's

14:37

really hard to get real businessmen

14:40

in the room combined with real

14:42

rugby people. And never the

14:44

two shall meet. So all those people

14:46

coming together in

14:48

the right room in the right places with

14:50

the broadcasters, with the IMGs

14:53

and AGs and others of the world

14:55

and really contemplating that is

14:57

the potential of the market.

15:00

Right. And so

15:01

that combined together will

15:03

unlock it. And it's never been done before.

15:06

And for the very first time, hoping

15:09

that this is the truth when this comes out, world

15:12

rugby have bet their shiny object.

15:15

Wow. The World Cup. They

15:17

have bet the shining object, right? It

15:19

needs to be there. So that

15:22

forces people. Now there's all kinds of

15:24

logistical issues and all kinds

15:27

of developmental issues that have

15:29

to be simultaneously. Let me jump on

15:31

that. Because one thing that Dan and I know this as players,

15:33

as administrators, as tournament organizers, that

15:36

can't be done is it can't be a solution drop

15:38

from rugby people that think they know better on

15:40

North America. He's just alluded to all the forces

15:42

that are there, broadcasters, sponsors, the stadium,

15:45

all that stuff. So

15:47

there is some contraction and coming out of World Cup, some

15:49

good conversations, world rugby. This

15:51

is good continental carpet. There

15:54

you go. There's

15:57

some good conversations coming out of world. about

16:00

trying to find solutions for the different regions. Obviously

16:03

Canada and the US, different markets, different solutions.

16:06

So there's a bright light there for guys like me and Dan, because

16:08

there hasn't been that kind of dialogue previously,

16:12

and it's gonna pay off if we get it right. Do you

16:14

feel they left you out in the cold a little bit? Yes.

16:17

Yeah. And this is my biggest thing, is

16:19

if Ruby talks about

16:21

a global game constantly, always

16:24

does, but it doesn't engage in the biggest market

16:27

in the world. So I'll tell you how we look, Nathan Bambros,

16:29

new CEOs come from Scottish Rugby, great

16:31

for Canadian Rugby, get us organized, businessman,

16:33

working hard. He's also my boss, so

16:35

there you go. There's my next- Payroll speed.

16:37

But no, seriously. Great guy, great guy, great guy. Probably

16:40

you should get a payroll. He doesn't

16:42

know what fixtures he has for the next five years,

16:44

right? We can't tell that. Why didn't

16:46

he have this saying, we get it? He is, he is. That's

16:49

what's happening. For the very first time. Yeah. Right.

16:52

Yeah, some good discussions to say, and if the initial

16:55

conversations come through, we're gonna have a plan. It's

16:57

gonna be tough to work through it, but

16:59

you can't sell something you don't have, or you don't know

17:02

if you have, right? Especially if you're going into Toronto.

17:04

It's one thing going into Twitham, but if you're going into

17:06

Toronto, which is a stadium that plays on the sports, there

17:09

you go. If you're going to Vancouver, and to

17:11

my point, we've proved we can do it with Sevens. Great,

17:13

nice. These are great events, right? They're world-class

17:15

events. And you talk about bringing new eyes

17:17

on the game. I mean, Sevens has done that for

17:20

over a decade in North America, and that's where new

17:22

people come to the game. My numbers aren't that bad to the original

17:24

question about people playing the game. Retaining

17:27

them is an issue. And part of that is giving them

17:30

a fan experience, giving them a media experience.

17:32

You know, TV's a huge part of this. If you give them

17:34

an experience, they can engage them. It's also an

17:36

end goal. It's like, why would you play

17:39

the sport if you don't... Yeah,

17:41

we know the personalities. What we try and highlight

17:44

on the show is the personalities that it creates and plays

17:46

with you too. But

17:49

still, you've got to create more of that. And where

17:51

is the end goal? If we ever

17:53

get a client or a prospective rugby person

17:56

into a Six Nations stadium or the World Cup

17:58

on quarter finals weekend, they're hooked. for life.

18:00

They absolutely love it. I mean, the anecdotal

18:03

stuff that came out of people who don't watch rugby,

18:05

celebrating the game after quarterfinal weekend was just

18:07

like, this is the greatest sport ever. And then seeing

18:10

these behemoth men walking around with their three year

18:12

old daughter and showing the human side. The

18:15

stuff you guys don't realize coming from a rugby market

18:17

is North Americans turn on the TV and see

18:19

a small little referee telling a

18:21

massive player what to do and they're saying, sorry sir, yes

18:23

sir. That stuff resonates. They

18:25

love it. They love it in North America. I think

18:28

that using two

18:30

examples. I

18:32

was in the L&R

18:35

office, top 14 in Paris,

18:38

and they had shown the results

18:41

of their 2016 to 2023 strategic plan. And if we all

18:43

put our minds eye

18:49

on France, they got more

18:52

that GIF rule, the GIF rule, more French

18:54

players, obviously the factory, they're

18:57

more alignment with their U20s,

19:00

more alignment with their academy

19:03

systems, really

19:05

a connection of L&R

19:07

to the FFR for the first time. So

19:10

France, rugby, L&R. If you put

19:12

your mind's eye on Ireland, and

19:15

I was there on the sideline with the mic

19:17

in 2016 in Chicago

19:21

when the Cubs had just won the Super Bowl. I remember

19:24

that. The greatest weekend in the history.

19:28

In rugby history and baseball history,

19:30

it was a cacophony. Somebody

19:33

used that before. That

19:38

just didn't happen. Stephen

19:40

Abboud and others really

19:43

reinvigorated that youth in Leicester

19:45

and the other system. Stephen Abboud, who's now

19:48

a rugby cabinet, who's looking at the developmental

19:52

structures. So to your question before,

19:55

the below comes from, okay,

19:57

we know that

19:59

we build, develop

20:02

and widen, right, at the grassroots,

20:04

at the recruit and retain, at the

20:07

commercial side of it, that we

20:09

do have the ability to lift the

20:11

tide because we have the events,

20:13

right? We have the calendar. If you

20:16

don't do that, you don't have the motivation.

20:19

Your motivation is still the dolt, right?

20:21

Your motivation is still to be,

20:24

play on welfare, right? And

20:26

just to get by, right? And

20:29

even in this place, and it pains

20:31

me, as an American, right, that's entrepreneur

20:34

or business-like and rugby-mad, just

20:36

like everyone that's listening or hearing and

20:38

seeing this, but if you don't have

20:41

that kind of the next goal and the next

20:43

goal and the next goal, so it's really a,

20:45

it doesn't take money to write a plan.

20:48

Right? But, and that's

20:50

the guilty part of

20:52

everyone. We have not written a plan

20:54

to get there. So now it's being

20:57

reverse engineered vis-a-vis

20:59

the World Cup. But also,

21:02

it's not even easy when you

21:04

try and have a plan. Oh, yeah. It's

21:06

difficult for everyone, right? Yeah, obviously,

21:08

you're part of AEG and you

21:10

tried to bring a British National Alliance

21:12

team to America, more

21:14

teams. You put the best commercial

21:17

prospect on their table for years and

21:20

still they turned it down. So how do

21:22

you, how do you make-

21:24

It's made of 2027, is it? Yeah.

21:27

How do you make- Are we allowed to talk about that?

21:29

Yeah, I mean, so- So there was an

21:31

opportunity for the Lions to go to Australia via a game

21:34

in- Vegas. In Vegas. Yeah.

21:37

To play against the

21:38

US? Against either a North American

21:41

barbarian or a US team,

21:43

depending on how the market felt, right? It

21:45

didn't really matter who the opposition was. No. So

21:48

the Lions go to Australia via the US, big

21:51

money deal?

21:52

Yeah. The most expensive deal that

21:54

the Lions will ever get paid. And the outcome

21:56

of the conversation was?

21:57

No.

21:59

Because

22:02

we're now talking about the New

22:04

Zealand for the next one and others. So in

22:07

the, in the shape of making

22:10

sure that the lions don't have egg on their face

22:12

or anybody that made the decision.

22:15

Um, I think in isolation,

22:19

you can see why they made the decision.

22:22

I can't, I can't, I can't

22:24

say whatever I want because there were guys that what I

22:26

say, you're on conspiracy. Yeah,

22:29

it's fucking bullshit because if you

22:31

want to engage in a country that has got

22:33

the greatest collection

22:36

of athletes and the greatest

22:38

collection of disused athletes,

22:40

because there are

22:42

a thousand people get drafted, but there are probably 10,000

22:44

people who don't get drafted and

22:47

you have these unbelievable athletes that we could

22:49

repurpose, redraw and everything else. And

22:52

to not do that, just

22:55

because you think everyone remembers soldier

22:57

field. Everyone remembers

22:59

soldier field. And we thought that was going to happen every year

23:02

for the next 10 years. It's not rugby's right

23:04

to go into the pro the biggest sports market

23:06

in the world and just establish because

23:09

it's a great sport. We all love the sport, but it's not

23:11

our right until we do the work and until, until

23:13

we get the right partners on board. What

23:15

it feels like, and I want to sort of move it forward a little

23:18

bit. What it feels like is it has been an absolute shambles

23:20

across the board. It's just no joined up thinking. There's

23:22

nothing down on paper. There's no collective kind

23:24

of working together. They've been great moments, but

23:26

they haven't. It's one soldier field. It's

23:29

always been a minor area of rugby.

23:32

I've seen 95, but United

23:35

States was 1975 and entered for the first time

23:37

in a modern

23:41

US team, right? Yeah. An Eagle team getting

23:43

into world rugby for the first time in

23:46

that era. Is that 50 years? Give

23:49

or take, right? Just below that. Um, we

23:51

are still a

23:52

startup company. Wow. We're still

23:54

in the garage. What was your journey? Cause

23:57

cause I, I had the,

23:59

I. I still class this guy as one of the greatest

24:02

player I've ever played with, skill set wise,

24:04

because your college history was

24:09

for a union, played American

24:11

football. I was a

24:13

commander's and reds, Björk

24:16

skins back then and all for before I came

24:18

to bat. Before I came to bat. And he

24:20

came in and this guy, actually,

24:22

I'm not going to say that because that's ridiculous,

24:26

longest nipples in the world by the way. It's

24:29

really the show, just something came in. We're

24:32

fixing it all, we've also got intimate details.

24:35

But he was the greatest, I rocked

24:38

up to bat in 1997,

24:40

Dan's there, and you talk

24:42

about athletes. There was a couple, Mike McDonald came

24:44

afterwards, he was captain of the Eagles

24:46

at some point, and what was the other prop

24:49

called? Dan Dorsey. Dan

24:51

Dorsey came, they just unbelievable

24:53

athletes, just a different

24:56

level that we didn't have in that

24:58

time. And knew everything

25:00

about what they had to do to win. And

25:03

to watch this guy play at the level

25:05

he played at, you talk about 1998, when we won

25:09

the Hahnikin Cup. That didn't take long, did it? No,

25:11

there we are. But 30 minutes more than I thought. And Dan

25:14

was a major part of that. And

25:16

I played second team rugby with Dan. I played

25:18

second team rugby with Jain Evans,

25:20

one of the greatest. And that was the competition

25:23

we had at that club at that time. It's

25:25

sad to me that 27 years

25:28

later, we're still not having this

25:30

conversation that there aren't 100 fans. Yeah.

25:33

Okay. 100 guys. So

25:35

in the sense of connecting the story

25:38

personally and for home and all that

25:40

kind of stuff, I have three boys that

25:43

are part of my household. And they

25:46

all play rugby. But they also

25:48

play soccer, American football,

25:50

basketball, right? And so given

25:53

them a journey and the moms

25:55

and the athletic directors and the afterschool

26:00

makes up the American sports complex a

26:02

story, right? It's a really

26:05

understandable that, hey, if I go

26:07

to high school in Pro Rugby, I can go to college.

26:09

If I go to college, I have a professional

26:12

life, and then I have a national

26:14

team, a parallel between the Olympics

26:17

and World Cups. We are a sophisticated,

26:20

growing international country

26:23

in America. We're not isolated and kind

26:25

of amongst ourselves, even though we appear

26:28

to be sometimes, right?

26:29

And in that context, that

26:32

journey of American rugby needs

26:34

to be known and understood to

26:36

Americans, right? And it's

26:38

the same thing with Canada. It can't just

26:41

be a hockey basketball lacrosse

26:43

journey. It has to be a rugby journey. So with that,

26:45

with that, with that, how does that work? I

26:48

don't know what the equivalent is in Canada,

26:50

for the NCAA in terms of scholarships

26:53

and everything else. How does that

26:55

fit? Because I've heard in the past that

26:57

the NCAA, giving it another

27:00

spot, is that what they call it? Where you

27:02

have a license

27:04

to get, that is a big problem.

27:07

How do we then deal with that

27:09

in terms of making it a viable sport for colleges

27:12

and everything else? Well, it's part of

27:14

bringing it over World Cup. Obviously, that's

27:16

a ton of commerce, right? That's

27:19

a billion dollar proposition, right? And

27:21

so you're gonna need to feed

27:23

that animal for the eight years before

27:26

that and for the eight years afterwards. So

27:28

you build a plan around how you

27:30

unlock the market. And collegiate

27:33

athletics, that are multi-billion

27:35

dollar annual enterprise,

27:39

has sports that are underneath

27:42

it and to which rugby, as we talked

27:44

about before, has a lot of programs,

27:46

but just getting that raise

27:49

on campus. So what you do is you

27:51

take some of that pre-legacy money that's

27:53

being part, being contemplated

27:55

and raised right now on the back

27:58

of a World Cup, right? So

28:00

you pre-invest and you put directors

28:03

and branding and marketing into

28:05

making it a full-time NCAA

28:08

sports so that every kid, we

28:10

talked about our boys, you know, there

28:12

and Gareth has two.

28:14

The each one, every Johnny

28:17

and Sally has the ability to play,

28:19

not just club kind of old

28:21

school amateur rugby, right? And, but

28:24

it has a professional infrastructure

28:26

that they can go to at the university level. And

28:29

then those crossovers and all

28:31

those kids that are playing multiple sports

28:33

will see rugby as a pathway for

28:36

their future. And it's the right question, Tins, because

28:38

you grow on the base and to Dan's point,

28:40

I can start playing in high school. I love this game. Oh,

28:42

I can go to uni. So we've got a great example

28:44

in Canada. The women are fully supported. They

28:47

got scholarships. So they went down to Rio first

28:49

Olympics, won a medal. They just

28:51

finished a very successful WXV in New Zealand.

28:54

Fantastic. And they've got a clear pathway

28:56

because the university is one of those steps on the way.

28:58

And it's it's world leading. So we need the

29:00

same thing for men. We're starting those conversations.

29:02

There's a little bit of desire right

29:04

now. So you're right. All these are steps that have got to be put

29:06

in place. Otherwise, it's just a bunch of rugby

29:08

guys saying, wouldn't it be great if, you know, and that's what

29:11

we've got to avoid. But that I think that's the biggest issue

29:13

that we have over here is there's no

29:15

connection between how you talk.

29:17

You you go through a phase of talking about schoolboy

29:20

rugby and who's the biggest name.

29:22

And we do this with Continental now because Continental

29:24

sponsor of the schools cup is.

29:27

Everyone knows when you're at school, you

29:30

know, the great guy at the other school

29:32

because you want to know who I

29:34

compete against, who I'm doing this. And then

29:36

we have this massive void that

29:39

sets between school,

29:41

college and then professional. And

29:44

what American sport does unbelievably

29:47

well and why, whether

29:49

it's right or wrong, it's ruthless,

29:51

right? It's ruthless. But

29:53

it goes from high school. You know

29:56

where it came from. They

29:58

talk about where they came from.

29:59

you know, the college they go to, because they talk

30:02

about the college they go to, they're all like Notre

30:04

Dame, or they're all like, you know, Virginia

30:07

Tech, or wherever it might be. And

30:09

then they make the NFL. And that

30:11

journey is, is stitched

30:14

together. International sport has a parallel,

30:16

right? And so I'm

30:18

not saying in, in England,

30:20

it has a parallel, but in the United States, there

30:23

are international, you

30:25

know, soccer and rugby and other things.

30:27

So within that scope of professional

30:30

clubs, like MLR, right, they have

30:33

academies and infrastructure, not everyone

30:35

goes to university. But if you if

30:37

you don't pay attention, to your point,

30:40

to universities, which is a lion's share

30:42

of people coming out, they're going to give you

30:44

read, they're going to have that, that

30:46

enterprise. If you don't pay attention

30:49

to that, you're not paying attention

30:51

to the majority of your athletes, boys

30:53

and girls, men and women. Interesting.

30:57

Can we throw it forwards? Because I sort

30:59

of want this to be it's been a mess, but this

31:01

is how it's going to be fixed. Just before we get on

31:03

to, I suppose, the character of Rugby World Cup 2031, and

31:05

everything between now and then, is

31:07

the MLR working? We sort of watch

31:09

on a bit from from overseas. Three billionaires.

31:13

And the LA Giltees who come and go

31:15

and I think there've been a couple of other franchises that have popped

31:17

and moved. Is the MLR now

31:20

stable, working, growing?

31:23

The MLR is

31:25

good until it's not. Right. And

31:28

that that is a business enterprise,

31:31

right? Just like every business out

31:33

there, right? Every startup, every group,

31:36

the MLS, Major League Soccer, to

31:39

which the Anschutz Cup, I work for

31:41

Mr. Anschutz, AEG, it's

31:44

called like the Lombardi Trophy or NFL,

31:46

it's called the Anschutz Cup. At

31:49

one point, because billionaires

31:52

were walking away from the sport, right, for

31:54

soccer, in, you know, 15, 18 years ago, after 1994, 1994 was

32:00

the soccer World Cup. I'm under Diana Ross

32:04

1988 1988 when FIFA came to the United States They

32:08

said and all the world's

32:10

press every every single one of

32:13

them. It'll never work It'll know

32:15

the World Cup will never work in America. It

32:17

will be the most biggest catastrophe

32:24

69,927 people average crowd. It's

32:26

the largest average crowd to

32:28

this day of World Cups,

32:30

right? So it does work.

32:32

So 1996 1996 enters

32:40

the league, you know

32:42

eight nine years later We owned

32:44

six and a half of the ten franchises, right?

32:47

And it was the there was a room where do

32:49

we keep going right? Do we keep doing

32:51

this now the underlying economic

32:53

value of these teams is you need

32:55

a half a billion dollars to start a one?

32:58

You have to build a stadium So,

33:01

you know if you build it they will

33:03

come you have to start somewhere. Yeah to

33:05

your question So my answer is MLR

33:08

the fact that it exists and it's got real owners

33:10

proper people with proper pockets

33:13

is huge That means there's jobs for the boys Right

33:15

most of the guys down and I play with didn't have a place a

33:17

job they could have in North America in rugby So

33:19

that's the best thing about it We haven't had our Beckham

33:22

type moment yet where they join and like MLS

33:24

had 20 or my guitar. Yeah But

33:28

it wasn't amplified because the league wasn't quite ready

33:31

So I think it's great and

33:33

it's a launching pad, but again tons of

33:35

work to be done But it's not going

33:37

to solve the problem by itself building building

33:40

the plan consists of learning

33:42

from other sports right learning from rugby

33:45

over here in the professional

33:47

area and how You

33:53

have to learn from you know in order to jump

33:55

over years of development or even

33:57

failure You have to learn from things And

34:00

so the MLS that learned 15

34:02

years into it that after

34:05

doing a study that the value of

34:08

their league, meaning their media

34:10

rights, was connected to the value

34:12

of their national team. If

34:14

your national team sucks, everyone

34:16

thinks your league sucks. But at least you know why they

34:18

best out on the witness table. So

34:21

building both together is a

34:24

story, right? So the W15 that's

34:27

right now, in combination

34:29

with a US and Canadian

34:32

calendar,

34:32

will allow people

34:35

to

34:36

not overlap in the calendar,

34:38

put pictures together where appropriate,

34:41

align colleges and others. Just

34:43

on that comment, the women's game is not a sidebar

34:46

that we're trying to support out of goodwill. It

34:48

is actually a commercial reality

34:50

that they have more potential in some cases than the

34:52

men's game. Because of the Olympics, because of,

34:55

well, in Canada, they're top four in the world, right? So

34:57

this is a team that people want to see. So this isn't some kind

35:00

of, oh, let's look after the women over here as a

35:02

gesture. This is a viable commercial property.

35:04

So the fact they have WXV regular

35:06

games means we can actually build something. We need the same

35:09

for the men. Does Canada need to sort of attach

35:11

itself to the US and sort of put teams into the

35:13

MLR? Or have you got a structure whereby Canadian

35:15

rugby can sort of stand on its own two feet at

35:17

a top level? Yeah, we are attached. We're

35:20

on the same market effectively. You talk a lot.

35:22

A lot. Is there a lot of crossover? So

35:25

that's happening more. And World Rugby is, I think, aware of

35:27

that, which is important. But we're inextricably

35:30

linked, right? Because we have the same

35:32

issues. And if we want to get better, we need each other to

35:34

play each other and be better. Dan and I used to have the

35:36

only regular fixture we had as a national team was against each

35:38

other. So we need to bring that

35:41

up. But we have, you know, we've got our own issues.

35:43

We have one MLR team, which is great. The

35:46

women's game is growing and we've got stars of the game

35:48

and it's fantastic. But

35:51

we are inextricably linked. We

35:54

will work with them. We, again,

35:56

I'll go back to sevens, right? We have two

35:58

stops that are back to back. great time

36:00

for the players, the supporters, everyone, because

36:03

they can have a great experience in Vancouver, great experience

36:05

in LA, and it works. And there's synergy

36:07

there. So yeah, there's no question that we're working

36:09

with USA. And

36:12

something like TV breaks off a bit. We have a great

36:14

partner in Canada that we're trying to get the more rugby

36:17

product. We're trying to get, for the short

36:19

term, our view is that reach over revenue.

36:22

There's gonna be good revenues, and this thing gets right as we've all

36:24

just discussed. But for the moment, let's increase

36:26

the reach, whether it's women's rugby or national

36:28

teams that we can see. We

36:31

obviously both didn't want to just work out. And

36:33

that's a major issue. We both want to be there. We want

36:35

to be pushing each other. But let's

36:37

increase the reach. Let's keep growing the game,

36:40

and then the revenues will be in there behind. Don't ask for the revenues

36:42

now will be our strategy in Canada,

36:44

right? Because there aren't big numbers right

36:46

now. I have a feeling with rugby, right?

36:49

This is an arrogant, we've always talked about the

36:51

arrogance of the hierarchy of rugby.

36:54

Well, just too many voices. I keep going

36:56

back to the UFC. You look at what Dana White does.

36:58

One bloke, one decision maker, and he gets

37:00

it done. Rugby, we've been talking. Just

37:03

like F1. Yeah, he's going around

37:05

passing the piece of paper around the table and no one's doing anything

37:07

with it. Right, right. And what my point was that we

37:09

think we know. We

37:15

don't know. Rugby as a sport on

37:17

the pitch is amazing. Internationally,

37:20

amazing. Even promanship, what

37:23

you see on the pitch is amazing. But behind

37:25

the closed scenes about being a professional sport,

37:27

being everything else, running it to the right way, is

37:30

fucked. But never do we reach

37:32

out to the nation that has

37:34

set up the biggest sports in

37:36

the world,

37:37

both whether it be Canada, whether it be the US.

37:41

Everyone looks to. I can talk

37:43

about NBA, I can talk about NHL. I

37:46

can talk about NFL. Because they've set

37:49

it up in the right way where you understand

37:51

it. I know more about college

37:53

football, mainly because of gambling.

37:57

More about college football than I care to imagine. and

38:00

the draft and everything else, because

38:02

that is how they build their sports. And

38:05

we haven't found a way in 27 years.

38:09

So there's

38:11

a complexity to finding

38:14

common ground, right?

38:15

And common ground... It's

38:18

so nice when he speaks, he's like, relax.

38:20

Yeah. Look, the Churchill, the

38:22

hero model of the

38:25

GB of world is, Churchill's

38:27

mother was American and father was obviously

38:30

a Lord or whatever you guys do over here. But...

38:34

What do you need? Yeah, exactly. But

38:37

in that context of if we're

38:39

two people not talking the same language,

38:42

right? And so we have

38:44

to find the common ground. Where are the

38:46

common grounds? And to me,

38:48

the Olympics began to be a common

38:51

ground, right? And then all of a sudden,

38:53

in Rio was a really interesting start.

38:56

Tokyo during COVID was really,

38:58

really dangerous and all kinds

39:00

of things were going on, not from the sense of, does

39:03

it keep going and all that stuff because

39:05

of the viral nature

39:08

of the world at the time. But can

39:10

world rugby, meaning all of us,

39:12

the rugby world say to the IOC and

39:16

the rest of the federations that are

39:18

existing out there, can we say that rugby

39:20

is the best sport at the Olympics?

39:23

And right now,

39:25

if our best players don't play,

39:27

if Antoine DuPont and Hugo Keeman

39:30

and Bowdoin Barrett and Owen Farrell,

39:33

don't play

39:34

in that,

39:36

are we two sports? Is

39:38

England versus GB

39:41

and Wales and Scotland, but South Africa?

39:44

And it's a sport because

39:46

you only have to have quick. It's almost an

39:49

anthropological dialogue, right? You

39:51

only need quick. Tall quick,

39:53

fat quick, unique quick and sevens, right?

39:56

So the rest of the world can all play.

39:58

Everyone has an illusion. the Olympic

40:01

Federation, so they can grow

40:03

the sport within their countries. But is

40:06

it just in America, we now have flag

40:08

football and cricket

40:10

and other sports that are coming up. So

40:13

if we want to stay ahead of the game,

40:15

so America, we know the NBC

40:18

pays like three quarters of the IOC

40:20

bill for the Olympics, right? When

40:23

the 100-meter final starts, it's like

40:25

NBC, 9 o'clock primetime, right?

40:28

In New York. If we want to get the

40:30

sport right, we have to understand what

40:33

we're trying to, what our products are and

40:35

what we're trying to do. Hey, just a red flag there with

40:37

flag football, lacrosse. No fun. No

40:40

fun. Flag on the flag. With

40:43

the cricket, lacrosse, flag

40:45

football going in, and NBC, obviously that's

40:48

one of the driving forces. That's a huge threat

40:50

to rugby sevens. We have to get

40:52

the de Ponce on that field and we have to

40:54

keep growing the sevens game. Just quickly, has sevens

40:56

getting into the Olympics confused, diluted

40:59

the conversations around 15s in Canada

41:01

in the US? Great question. I think it's confused in

41:03

a lot of places. Not

41:07

the myopic world of

41:09

tier one, everyone else is out

41:11

there going,

41:12

what's the sport? Rugby is rugby.

41:15

Rugby league came to America, everyone would

41:17

be rugby, right? It's

41:20

a confusing dialogue amongst,

41:22

if we keep it under

41:24

the water, then we're going

41:28

to have a really difficult time understanding

41:31

some things. To your question, sevens

41:34

is a gateway to the

41:36

broader sport, the 15 sport. The

41:39

sport of 15 engenders itself,

41:42

all shapes and sizes, boys and girls, everything

41:45

goes in 15s. You

41:48

don't need much, but sevens and

41:50

touch and flag are a means

41:53

to an end. We have the 28

41:54

Olympics, that'll springboard.

41:57

We have a 26 people war

41:59

come.

41:59

Right. Talk about the perfect runway

42:02

for a World Cup in 31. We

42:04

have 26, which will test the

42:06

stadiums, test the cities, test

42:09

all everything, right? 28 Olympics. You

42:12

can test the market. You get your brands

42:15

and all that kind of stuff. And if, and my

42:17

proposition would be the eight

42:19

or nine women and the eight or

42:21

nine men on that team playing

42:24

also on the 15 steam, right? Would

42:26

just be stars and building and just

42:29

be a dynamic that you would

42:31

never have to have the two of us on again. You'd

42:34

have this, the stars of

42:37

the United States and Canada. Sevens can be our

42:39

beach volleyball to volleyball. Right. You just

42:41

get people playing the game and it can definitely

42:43

be that. We've seen it already. I want to finish with sort

42:45

of what kind of a tournament 2031 will be, but what

42:48

does

42:49

real progress look like for Canada

42:51

and the US between now and Rugby World Cup 2031? What

42:55

does that look like? What does it have to be in

42:57

order for your two teams, not just to appear

42:59

and take the field, but to actually be able to contend

43:03

and how close to being able to actually realize

43:05

some of that are you, what does, what does progress

43:08

look like and how close are you to progress? I'll give it a

43:10

go. We are, we both talked about our plan. So

43:12

there needs to be a plan. Part of that

43:14

is a viable place for North Americans to play

43:16

professional rugby, to fight for spot

43:19

on a national team. And is that MLR? Could be MLR.

43:21

It's whatever works. I think it could be MLR with more

43:23

investment. Um, and also access to

43:25

Europe. But the best rugby still going to be in Europe. You can't just

43:27

play in the MLR as we found out for this last World

43:30

Cup and then put on your national Jersey

43:32

and think you're going to be competitive. If the stand is not there. So

43:34

that's number one, a viable business

43:37

model. And that means fixtures. That

43:39

means broadcast rates, whatever broadcast

43:41

looks like by that time. And we don't know. Right. And, uh,

43:44

so that, that needs to be important. And then

43:46

that drives everything from investment in the products

43:48

we see on this table with its black eyed gin or continental

43:51

or whoever else wants to come to the table, they

43:53

have something in the North American market

43:55

where they can leverage and have a great experience because

43:58

we can't underestimate the value of that. And

44:00

you know, we take it for granted in six nations countries,

44:02

you know that that's part of it So that's going

44:04

to fund what we're doing so viable places

44:06

for kids to choose the sport be supported

44:08

at a high level and then Continue

44:11

that whether it's the playing experience or

44:13

the fan experience These are casual fans.

44:15

So many of our fans don't put on a pair of boots

44:18

throughout their career But they support and love the game

44:20

and we saw this in the france 23 world cup and

44:23

ideally we'll be seeing that in in in

44:25

the ufa In two world cups

44:27

time when people are just loving the game loving

44:30

the stories the characters There's

44:32

household names again dan lau care

44:34

three stones heard about them anymore because his new kids

44:36

are on the block That's that's successful. So that's the plan

44:39

are those blocks being put in place? The

44:42

discussions to put those in place. I think are

44:44

starting to be heard by the right people and world

44:46

rugby has made some strides We still got

44:48

a ton to do obviously you need partners

44:50

within those markets and the likes of dan's

44:53

boss and other people that we need them Pulling

44:55

for rugby because they're huge sport forces

44:58

and if they're pulling for rugby, we're all going to come

45:00

along for the ride But that's always the way

45:02

is that? The rugby

45:04

world cup is the third biggest Uh,

45:08

what did you say event event on the planet? Of

45:12

the planet. So how does then the game

45:15

not? Below that not

45:18

sit in the same

45:20

Stress of sphere it doesn't it doesn't you

45:22

say you're you you've hit

45:25

the nail on the proverbial,

45:27

you know Money

45:31

could be the new it could be the new house or

45:33

it could be the coffin depending on The

45:36

way we pivot, right? So we just established

45:38

that uh, the fifa world cup is

45:41

coming to north america and to mexico,

45:43

right? I would imagine that You

45:46

know canada hosts some games in 31

45:48

if and 33 for the women's

45:50

world cup. So we have four opportunities

45:53

for here, but fifa the 26 and

45:56

the 28 games will give us

45:58

a runway and a platform to do

46:00

all kinds of things. But to your question, you

46:03

cannot rely upon any independent

46:06

one-off strategy. It has

46:08

to be the things brought together. So when

46:10

I was talking before about, okay,

46:13

MLR, whether it's 12, 13 teams

46:16

or back down to six or seven

46:19

or eight and then expanding the right

46:21

way with an infrastructure that makes

46:23

some sense, connected to

46:25

international fixtures, but a U18

46:28

structure that makes sense, right? That

46:31

is, instead of one Portugal,

46:33

we have four Portugal, right, so

46:36

dissecting the United States in a meaningful

46:38

but easily digestible way. Four

46:41

U20, four U23s, that connects us to

46:44

the world conversations, but

46:47

it also connects us both to North

46:49

Americans, Canadians playing against Americans

46:52

at the United States, also South

46:54

America. So we hear a lot

46:56

about Gaspi Cho and Argentina, Uruguay

46:59

and Chile. So I think

47:01

the connections in our hemisphere are

47:03

as important, but we have more Polynesians

47:06

in America than they're all practically

47:08

on the Polynesian islands. So having

47:11

competitions, meaningful competition, the

47:13

men's and women's in North America,

47:16

that the Canadians, the United

47:18

States, South Americans and

47:20

the Polynesians can play in, right? Outside

47:23

of their one or two Druze or super-Ruglies

47:26

is a really meaningful dialogue. And

47:28

so I think we are the

47:30

proverbial bridge to

47:32

a lot of this stuff that's being talked about

47:35

in the world calendar and things like that.

47:37

So not to over-complicate it, we

47:39

get our domestic structures

47:42

and schools right, right? And those plans

47:44

are being talked about right now because

47:46

the funding will come with the World

47:49

Cup. We can fund to

47:51

a much, much, much higher,

47:53

tens of millions of dollars of

47:55

income pre-World Cup allows

47:58

you to bring in these directors. and facilitators

48:01

to get more women's NCAA teams,

48:03

to get four teams established,

48:06

right? And to really support the MLR

48:08

and other

48:09

components there. It's not rocket

48:12

science, right? It's

48:15

not. And we,

48:17

failure to launch is

48:19

the history of American rugby. Great movie

48:21

there. Great movie. I really

48:23

want to... I

48:27

am passionate about, obviously, my

48:29

game. I love my game. I love the people it creates.

48:31

I love everything. But I actually

48:34

love American sports, as you probably figured

48:36

that out through this show. It's because I know quite

48:38

a lot about it and I

48:40

invest my time figuring out how

48:43

America has made all their sports

48:45

great. It's very elitist, but

48:49

they celebrate their athletes. And

48:51

I think if the

48:54

NCAA could give 1%, 1% of

48:58

what they give to their

49:00

basketball players, their NFL players,

49:03

they don't say... We want to earn it though.

49:05

Yeah, you have to prove it. And

49:08

as an American, I want the

49:10

New Zealand CEO, the RFU CEO,

49:13

the Australian CEO. But New Zealand would be the matrix.

49:16

In the past, it has been very one

49:18

size fits all. That's why I brought up the

49:20

Dole mentality. They stayed

49:22

with welfare state. It's been that. It's

49:25

all countries in the world. So they've invested

49:28

a ton in Fiji, a

49:30

ton in Argentina.

49:30

40 million, I think. But to

49:33

the extent that they're trying to create

49:35

a system and an infrastructure that

49:37

becomes sustainable. The only

49:39

difference between that and United

49:41

States is the sustainability. But

49:44

here's the big factor. Here's the big factor.

49:47

And Gareth and I talked to their balloon in the face.

49:50

The United States is a dividend market.

49:53

It is dividend market for itself

49:56

and dividend market for everyone else. There

49:58

are more media...

49:59

that. So soccer, for example,

50:02

we started in we started

50:04

in 94 96. Now,

50:08

Premier League, Syria,

50:11

La Liga, Boudinest League,

50:13

they get more is the most

50:16

producing financial market in

50:18

the world for soccer, right?

50:20

So it's a billion dollar Premier

50:23

League deal.

50:24

Billion dollar. So

50:27

funds the game funds the game. It's a dividend.

50:29

So you can declare victory and move

50:32

on in North America, right? You don't have

50:34

to. It's just a matter of

50:36

kicks. It's a big, wide,

50:38

clunky, as we have established

50:41

market right now, right? But it's

50:43

worth it. Yeah, it's worth it. So

50:45

I wanted this show up and I'm a problem

50:47

solver. But this is obviously rugby. So we're not getting

50:49

very close to any solid solutions

50:51

yet. I suppose the question is, if it's not

50:54

there yet, are you optimistic from

50:56

where you've mentioned us rugby is 50 years old

50:58

and has not really gone very far? And how would

51:00

you change it? Yeah, but we've built

51:02

the plan. Is it going to happen? Is

51:04

the next eight years going to see fully

51:07

fit, fully firing and properly competitive

51:10

US and Canada teams arrive at 2031?

51:12

Or are we all still

51:15

going to be here in another eight years saying there's a plan

51:17

and bits of paper? And to

51:19

Michael's theory, are you being held

51:21

back? Or held? Or

51:23

held? The moment that the US Eagles

51:26

didn't qualify for this World Cup, genuinely

51:28

wanting to be there because they're our cousins and we suffer

51:31

the same stuff. That was huge, because it actually

51:33

did shine a proper light. We're actually

51:35

going to hold the World Cup in France and Canada and US aren't

51:37

going to be there. First time Canada's missed US has

51:39

only missed one other time. So yes,

51:41

I think the conversations are real. I think

51:44

especially world rugby and a few of the other partners

51:46

and people are talking to us that haven't talked to us before. I genuinely

51:49

think that the dialogue there, but there's got to be commitment

51:52

alongside

51:52

it.

51:53

Right? We've seen it in the women's game, just to mention

51:55

that again. I mean, there's been some real growth and

51:57

there's actually a bit of a plan there. there's

52:00

so many forces. I think the question's a

52:02

fair one. Are we going to be able to identify

52:04

a strategy, but then execute and get

52:06

the right parties in behind it? Because the North American

52:09

strategy is a must because of where we're going for a

52:11

World Cup in two stops. And it's going

52:14

to pay off to Dan's point dividend. It's going

52:16

to be a dividend for the global game if we get

52:18

it right. Alex, you know,

52:20

I'm as nervous as you

52:23

or any viewer listener

52:25

out there. But I'm also

52:27

more

52:28

optimistic than I've ever been.

52:31

I've been doing the admin side for almost 20

52:34

years

52:34

and

52:36

professional side before that for 10 years.

52:38

So being involved in American,

52:41

if not professional rugby for 30 years.

52:44

And I've never seen

52:47

because of this World Cup opportunity,

52:51

the amount of people that are paying attention

52:53

to rugby outside of their own countries

52:57

and within the United States that

52:59

are part of the American sports complex.

53:01

I've never seen that before to the scale

53:03

that gets me excited and

53:06

gets me up, you know, each and every

53:08

day. That's step

53:10

one. You know, that's not step, you

53:12

know, it takes a lot to get there. The

53:16

now the challenge

53:18

is the courage to actually

53:22

know that it's going to be difficult.

53:24

It's going to be complex. It's going to be wide.

53:26

It's going to be deep. There's going to be some hurdles,

53:29

right? And really taking

53:31

that peel, taking that band aid off all

53:33

the way, right? And say, okay,

53:36

I'm now I'm going to stumble,

53:38

right? I'm going to fail. But don't we all

53:40

teach our kids, don't we all teach everyone

53:42

that out there, you know, the only lens for failing.

53:45

Exactly. But it's not going to be done after

53:47

that. It's not going to be every failure, right? It's

53:49

not going to be a one off knockout

53:51

game, right? This is a this is a marathon

53:55

of an expedition now. But at the end

53:57

of that marathon, we will have

54:00

a market that is returning for the global

54:02

game, right? A market

54:05

that can sustain itself, right?

54:08

And we have multiple teams,

54:10

you know, that are... And really,

54:13

it's beyond the national team level. It's every

54:16

club, every

54:18

single bitten surface

54:21

area of world rugby and

54:23

pro rugby and grassroots rugby will

54:26

be positively affected by that. And that's

54:28

not a sales pitch. That's a reality

54:29

that multiple sports

54:32

have gained from. Final question then. There

54:35

is a hell of a lot to do, but what

54:37

could

54:38

and will Rugby World Cup... What

54:40

could should and will Rugby World Cup 2021

54:42

look like in the US

54:44

from this point?

54:45

Mr. AG, you want to start us off? Oh,

54:49

big commissions, I guess. Yeah.

54:52

It will be...

54:54

Not if. It will be the most

54:57

well attended World Cup that we've

54:59

ever had. It will be the most profitable

55:01

World Cup that we've ever had. The 300

55:06

suites that some of these stadiums

55:09

have will all be filled, right?

55:12

The population of Southern California

55:15

is 26 million

55:17

people, just in one area,

55:19

right? So, between... And the

55:22

Eastern Seaboard feels like Europe,

55:24

right? The DC to Boston

55:26

corridor where it's a four or five

55:28

hour train journey to get up there. There's

55:31

DC, there's Philly, there's Boston,

55:32

New York. Every single

55:35

one of the European fans coming there,

55:37

every... And then

55:39

the Texas is the

55:42

wild frontier. So Dallas and Houston

55:44

and places like that. But we have

55:46

more expats. We have more Irish

55:49

than Ireland. We have more... More

55:51

Irish than Ireland. So we

55:54

have so many different nations

55:57

combined together that... Just

56:01

forget visitors. There's enough people

56:03

to populate all these big stadiums just

56:06

in the United States. So it's

56:08

really not the if and the what and

56:10

the maybe, it's

56:14

about how can we make this

56:17

double what we predict? Can

56:19

we make this a market that is

56:21

in 25,

56:22

to

56:24

your point about the lines, or in 29 or whatever,

56:28

they were hosting these regular games

56:31

and that's

56:33

really the future. And

56:35

every single other competent

56:38

sport, not American sports, but

56:40

every soccer, others, are

56:44

doing it in America, right? And if

56:46

we don't prescribe to

56:49

having a high quality, high

56:52

quality H2O. If we don't believe that

56:54

our sport is there, then

56:59

we're never gonna get there.

57:01

We're never gonna get to the United States. Spain's

57:05

and Portugal hosting World Cups, Argentina

57:08

hosting World Cups, others. If we can't

57:10

do it in the United States, because it's too

57:13

big and too wide eyed and

57:15

all that kind of stuff, then we just have

57:18

let ourselves way, way, way down. And

57:20

we're not a global sport. We're

57:22

just an international sport that's played

57:25

in a few countries. For me, 2031, it's a pinnacle.

57:29

I've had it a couple of times recently, turn on

57:32

the TV watching rugby sevens in the

57:34

Olympics. For me, walking downtown

57:36

in Vancouver, putting 75,000 people

57:38

in a soccer, football, so a gridiron

57:40

stadium, and having the best party we've ever

57:42

seen, right? Those are huge moments. As a rugby

57:45

guy, all your listeners, GBR listeners, who love rugby,

57:47

they will walk into 31 in the States and

57:50

be so blown away, so proud,

57:53

so easy for them to enjoy the game. And

57:55

the stuff that will come through are the values, because it's

57:57

always at the heart of everything any of us have ever done in the

57:59

game, right? The values will be on display

58:02

and will be in the largest market in the world and

58:04

we as fans will just be able to sit Back and say

58:07

aren't we lucky? Yeah, I say to this game I know it

58:09

sounds kind of cheesy, but I genuinely believe that's what

58:11

it works. I drop a match. Yeah, exactly We're

58:13

going Hong Kong 7 just here with bok kai Jin that

58:16

happens on a Saturday afternoon You just sit back and go. This

58:18

is the greatest celebration of rugby these people

58:21

expect everyone They love what's going on here and

58:23

sometimes to me that would be success for 31 if

58:26

you could just sit back and say So proud

58:28

this is my sport. Yeah And

58:30

I'm so proud of what I'm seeing you reconnect with

58:32

the authenticity of the game first

58:35

came

58:36

Rugby then came American

58:38

football if you watch every single

58:40

podcast every Philly push

58:42

push every Travis Kelsey who's

58:45

dating Taylor Swift they're talking

58:47

about rugby on their podcast their respect

58:49

for rugby though Authenticity

58:52

is there because it's been around for 150 years. Yeah, it's Real

58:56

and well in America, it's rehabiting.

58:59

We're not that old, right? Yeah,

59:01

but it's not reinventing But

59:06

it's also

59:06

the uniqueness it to what they're

59:08

saying you're gonna have this Razzmatazz

59:10

the fun the entertainment, you know detailers

59:13

would play for bath. That's what I want to know. Yeah.

59:15

Yeah quite possibly maybe Very

59:20

quickly with Al Sharone in 91 welcome

59:22

quarterfinal. He's called the Troy against your place Al

59:24

Sharone score legend. Yeah, will

59:26

you Will you have a team that compete?

59:29

So the final question is will you have a Canadian team that competes

59:31

in 2031? We could do forget it, right? Okay

59:33

everyone wants to stop talking about that quarterfinal us

59:36

included Al Sharone included because We

59:38

want to hear the next bunch of kids with a maple leaf on their jersey

59:40

or an eagle doing a job And that's

59:43

success. Will you have an US team that competes

59:45

in 2031? Yeah You Put

59:49

the right system and structures in place

59:51

the natural resources are there

59:53

in spades How good does it mean having

59:55

these two? It's been brilliant and it's it

59:58

sort of feels in something up like there is an enormous

1:00:00

opportunity. We've heard that before, but

1:00:02

there's an enormous amount to do. Someone's

1:00:05

got to do it though. Someone's got to do it. And

1:00:07

this is a big question to Bill Bowman. This

1:00:09

is a big question to Will Robbie. They've

1:00:11

got to fucking make it happen. Like we

1:00:13

sit here, we view and we give our

1:00:15

opinion, but we've had an

1:00:17

upscale on what happened four years ago and

1:00:21

we need to upscale it again. We need to

1:00:23

upscale it again, walk you into that world cup.

1:00:25

Thank you so much for coming along. Thank you for joining us.

1:00:28

Good luck with all that news to come. We've actually got our own little

1:00:30

GBR play in the MLR, but we'll come

1:00:32

to that on another show.

1:00:35

Watch it here. You need to say that with you. Jen,

1:00:37

thanks for coming. You're in. You can't. I'm

1:00:40

out. You're coming in. I told you these nipples were great.

1:00:46

And on that bombshell, as these two head off into the

1:00:48

night, we've been to Good The Bad and the Rugby in partnership

1:00:50

with our very good friends at Continental Tires. The Good The Bad and the Rugby

1:00:52

is a folding pocket production. This episode

1:00:55

was produced by Tom Edwards. See you soon.

1:01:02

You've been listening to The

1:01:04

Good, The Bad and

1:01:07

the Rugby with Alex

1:01:10

Payne, James Haskell and Mike

1:01:12

Tyndall. Thanks for listening.

1:01:21

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