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you need a company you can trust. When

0:35

you talk Scottish rugby, two names that immediately

0:37

go up in lights. Gary

0:39

Armstrong and Craig Chalmers. When

0:42

we got on the pitch, the communication, you

0:45

know, he'd know where I was and he'd just chuck them.

0:47

I'd try and catch them and left,

0:49

right, yes, no. All

0:51

the little calls, fish and chips, ham and eggs. What

0:54

was fish and chips? Box kick. Right.

0:58

Jim Telfer, obviously no stranger to hurt himself,

1:00

once said that Gary had an inhuman tolerance

1:02

of pain, the hardest man he'd ever coached.

1:04

He was sometimes referred to as the ninth

1:06

forward. Nine times out of ten I

1:08

would probably shoot my own players more

1:10

than other teams, just to get the ball away.

1:13

We were both winners, we both wanted to win

1:16

desperately. Who would have thought that

1:18

you'd be playing England, winner takes all at Murrayfield.

1:21

And the senior players had decided, right, instead of

1:23

running out at Murrayfield we've got to walk out.

1:26

And I always remember the noise when we walked

1:29

out onto Murrayfield, it was just unbelievable.

1:35

Into the final moments, Alex Payne trying

1:37

to keep this side going forward. Haskell

1:39

takes it on now, just relentless chant,

1:42

largely about himself. And there's Tindall to

1:44

add the finishing touch of glamour and

1:46

World Cup winning stories and a slightly

1:49

sideways nose. That is how you podcast.

1:51

A dominant display by the good, the

1:53

bad and the rugby. Hello

1:57

Dream Team. Welcome along to this week's episode of... The

2:00

Good, The Bad and The Rugby, as always, with our

2:02

good friends at Continental Tires, hope you're well. This

2:04

week, we're doing something a little bit different. We have got

2:06

a new series that we are going to be running on

2:08

The Good, The Bad and The Rugby called Rugby's

2:11

Greatest Unions, where we bring

2:13

together the best playing partnerships

2:16

that our game has ever seen. And we've got

2:19

a number of ideas, a number of places that we want

2:21

to take this into the club game, into the Lions, but

2:23

over the next few weeks, we're going to be very much

2:25

focusing on all things Six Nations,

2:28

and it's very much an opportunity for you to get involved

2:30

as well. So we'd love to hear

2:32

in the comments the types of partnerships, combinations and

2:34

unions that you've really enjoyed over the

2:36

years and that you'd love us to

2:38

have in studio celebrating and

2:40

getting into the nuts and bolts with. But

2:43

this week, we start with, when you talk

2:45

Scottish rugby, two names that immediately go

2:47

up in lights, Gary Armstrong

2:50

and Craig Chalmers. They played the pivotal positions

2:52

of 9 and 10. They played

2:54

32 times together for Scotland, including the last time

2:56

that Scotland won the Grand Slam back in 1990.

3:00

A year later, Scotland would go on to make it

3:02

to the World Cup semi-finals with this duo starting, and

3:04

that of course is Scotland's best ever finish at

3:07

a rugby World Cup. There is a

3:09

really, really good book, which if you haven't read

3:11

it, I highly recommend you do, called The Grudge

3:13

by Tom English, which goes into real detail about

3:15

the 1990 Scotland Grand

3:17

Slam. And in it, Tom describes Gary as

3:19

teak tough and Craig as,

3:21

in inverted commas, not lacking in confidence.

3:25

I'll be describing that a few times. Fair? Yeah,

3:28

fair enough. Fair. Which

3:33

sounds like the perfect halfback combination to me.

3:36

It's really good to have you both in. And

3:38

I mean, to sort of start, you've come down

3:40

on the train together today? Yeah,

3:42

no, we came down. We met Gary picked me up this

3:44

morning at half seven. I

3:47

was in time, Gary. Very punctual. You

3:50

know, down the road, just, yeah, we never

3:53

stopped talking the whole way down about

3:55

how he looked after me all those years.

3:58

Never threw any crap back to me. He only

4:00

gave me the good stuff. He

4:02

took all the all the bashes and the

4:05

knocks and You can probably tell by

4:07

his nose, but it's like He

4:10

was yeah, he was a tough he's tough as

4:12

Tique as as as it as described That's what

4:14

he was quite right first feather. You both look

4:16

15 years younger than the man Not

4:19

sure what that says about the amateur game. It's

4:22

really good to have you I mean, would you go on when you how

4:24

often do you see each other now? How

4:27

quick Each other

4:29

for a wee well now Have you know and every

4:31

time a catch up is just like yesterday take off

4:33

or left off I think there that

4:35

sort of 1990 squad was

4:37

a close-knit squad and we're

4:39

all great friends We'll keep in touch, but but then you

4:41

see one another a lot But when we do see one

4:43

another I'll make up for it. Fantastic. I

4:45

can imagine I was gonna say how are you but I

4:48

mean do you mom is that you've you've got a bit

4:50

of a battle man How are you getting on with yeah?

4:52

I'm good that Recently

4:54

diagnosed with prostate cancer and Just

4:58

found out by random. I mean since

5:00

you turn 50. I've had a test

5:02

every year just takes the bloods make

5:04

sure everything's okay and This

5:07

year. Yeah came back from a prosmo

5:09

PSA. I was a little bit high and so yeah,

5:12

yeah, I just Just a

5:14

really important point you turn 50 you

5:16

go and get tested for these things because she

5:18

catch early enough like I have Mine

5:21

just contained in the prostate. So I'm

5:24

gonna get my up. Okay. Logan had it.

5:26

Yeah, I remember Yeah, and can you care

5:28

this taken out? so we've Spoke

5:31

a Kenny about it. And yeah, I'm gonna

5:33

get my ticket out after six nations So

5:35

and it's not it's not a

5:38

sore-growing cancer. Right? It's it's yeah

5:40

I'm gonna say it's right to Kenny. He's gonna do it Yeah,

5:46

he went through it

5:48

and so he's been good to you know, he's we get to talk

5:50

to about it Yeah, first thing is

5:53

first useful. You still think is a

5:55

match again in there, but he's uh,

5:57

yeah He's been great and John Elliford

5:59

the ex-girlfriend He had it as well. So,

6:01

you know, we've been talking, you know, and

6:04

guys don't talk enough about these kind of

6:06

things So I think it's important that you

6:08

know guys go and get tested when they

6:10

turn 50 One

6:12

in eight guys in the UK white guys

6:14

will get it one for black guys will

6:16

get prostate cancer at some point in their in their

6:18

Life. So yeah, it's pretty common. It's the biggest killer

6:20

of men It's really good of you to come down

6:22

particularly given your news and very good of you to

6:24

share as well because We've often heard back on this

6:26

show that when people talk about these sorts of things

6:29

it makes a bit of a difference So no you

6:31

for doing that There's so much

6:33

to talk about between the two of you and it's it's really

6:35

really good to see that the both of you together We're

6:38

gonna come on to your careers and your

6:40

highs in a moment So we every week

6:42

we do a continental tires showstopper moment of

6:44

the weekend a house call throws one at

6:46

you So we've thrown a few sort of

6:48

headlines Ben White's try for Scotland

6:51

off a brilliant break from Harry Patterson

6:54

We had Lewis Louis BL BR his try which

6:56

gave France the lead on 70 minutes Jack Crowley

6:58

played very well for Ireland Did you like the

7:00

look at him? I've

7:03

been really impressed with him. Yeah, and it means two

7:05

bits of skill that you show the weekend the two

7:07

the two offloads Was

7:09

where standing and I think these first

7:11

try for island I was or mother.

7:13

Yeah, it's unbelievable I don't make a

7:16

mission Harry Patterson. He really played four

7:18

senior games for Glasgow. I think He

7:21

played with Robbie Hakeys, that's what

7:24

that's the only time I've seen him play

7:26

Yeah playing for Edinburgh keys and I thought

7:28

he was flawless inside today Maybe I would

7:30

position a little bit for that for that

7:32

for the second French try Yeah, but I

7:34

thought he was standing if it's gone to

7:36

one that match he would have

7:38

been manning the match for me Yeah, definitely. Great

7:40

job. The other one that wanna throw out there

7:42

is Stevie Mulroney who sang Ireland's cool I Mean

7:48

I already know what I was gonna go for are

7:50

you are you a man of the people? I am

7:52

master the amount of people I think a lot of

7:54

people as long as I can they're behind a rope.

7:56

I Yeah, I

7:58

mean he I think Steven

8:00

Mulroney is our content-al-tires showstopper moment

8:02

of the weekend. Obviously,

8:30

the majority of your careers you mentioned earlier

8:33

were amateur into the early days of professions.

8:35

Would you make of the TMO constant replay?

8:38

Andrew Cott had described it perfectly on

8:40

Saturday, death by television. Try

8:42

yes or no? It was a

8:44

bit of a mix-up, but to be quite honest, Scotland

8:46

should have won the game long before that. It should

8:49

never have come down to that. They had chances earlier

8:51

in the game in the second half, especially, the score

8:53

some tries would overlap and they never took them. How

8:57

worry for Scotland? You only seem to play 55 minutes

9:00

and then switch off. It was the

9:02

same against Wales. We got to the 55-60 minute

9:04

mark and then something happens.

9:08

We seem to go through the whole repertoire of what

9:10

we want to do and then when we finish that

9:12

repertoire, they stop playing.

9:15

It's quite worrying for the big games coming

9:17

up. I thought it was a poor, fragile,

9:20

poor Saturday. Really poor. I

9:22

think that was a really good chance

9:24

for Scotland. We missed out again. Another

9:26

great opportunity to build

9:28

something quite big. Now

9:31

we've got to look forward to England. The TMO was

9:33

a shocker. You could see

9:36

it was down. You could see it was in the ground. Listen,

9:39

it wasn't given and it's done now. We can't

9:41

do anything about it. Just go

9:44

and beat England. Originally,

9:47

TMO was only brought in for foul

9:49

play. It just progressed and progressed. Now

9:51

the referee and the game from the

9:54

touch line. Back in the day, we

9:56

probably wouldn't have got half the tries if we

9:58

got a TMO open there. Jesus

10:00

is being summoned by their remaining. Because

10:03

we used to cheat back into this. Right. But

10:05

in many ways, that is the game of rugby.

10:07

It is a game where it's

10:09

all about seeing how much you can get away

10:11

with. And nowadays, the TMI means that it's... It's

10:13

how far you can push the laws. And that

10:15

is. And he pushed the laws all

10:17

the time. I mean, him and... I mean, stuff that

10:20

he got up to at Scrum Half. Is that fair?

10:23

Probably. Well,

10:26

you tell the boys about your first... Your

10:28

biggest excuse. My first trip to France, I

10:30

came up with a guy called Pierre Berbizier.

10:32

Oh, yeah. And in that 80

10:35

minutes of rugby, I learned more in that 80

10:37

minutes in my whole rugby career up to then.

10:40

Because I didn't think there was a referee on the pitch.

10:43

I was getting an elbow in the mouth, or he was stabbing my

10:45

toes, or he was putting the ball in for me. Every time I

10:47

went to put the ball in, it would nudge it in with his

10:50

foot or something. And I'm like, Oh, where is

10:52

the referee? Never ref the game we're in. And

10:55

it's all about winning respect. And it wasn't until

10:57

the end of the game, I went to Shakespeare,

10:59

Berbizier's hand, and he turned and walked away. And

11:01

I thought, Oh, well, he

11:03

didn't get any respect. There was a first time

11:05

in France, so two years later, on

11:08

the same park, I gave him

11:10

exactly the same as he gave me two

11:12

years before. And he was the first

11:14

man to come across in shape, man, you play well today.

11:17

Because I just kicked the show away. Well,

11:21

why does that come? Because interestingly, I really

11:23

read a quote about you, because I was

11:25

fascinated by it. So Jim Telfer, obviously no

11:27

stranger to hurt himself, once said that Gary

11:29

had an inhuman tolerance of pain, the hardest

11:31

man he'd ever coached. He was sometimes referred

11:33

to as the ninth forward. Like, how would

11:35

that manifest? Like, how would it manifest itself?

11:38

Like, how do you get a reputation like that, especially with

11:40

Jim Telfer? Like, do you must have filled people on the

11:42

field, filled people in the night out, filled people in the

11:44

training? Yeah, I guess the

11:46

fear or no performer well. And

11:49

back in the day, it was every two weeks

11:51

that the five nations played. So in

11:53

between, you went back and played for your club. And

11:56

there was one day, I didn't play very well for

11:58

Scotland, and I got out of the works. to go

12:00

and get a paper and all I heard up the

12:02

Jed High School was, Arf, son, you were shite on

12:04

Saturday. And I was like, keep your

12:07

feet on the ground, and he was like, poof. He said,

12:09

a works man, what did you do? I was working for

12:11

a building company in Jed at the time. Really? So you

12:13

were literally in between games? In between games, I go back,

12:15

work. I love that.

12:17

We were training on Sunday before the

12:20

next international. So you were

12:22

playing on Saturday for your club, training on Sunday, meet

12:24

up on a Wednesday, four was in Scrum House because

12:26

you wouldn't allow the whole squad there on a Wednesday.

12:29

So the four was in Scrum House, meet up on

12:31

a Wednesday. We would watch them Scrummage

12:34

live rockin', we jumped to Alpha. So

12:36

the four would kick shit in the morning. Was that

12:38

quite box office viewing? Yeah, it was good to watch.

12:40

It was always there, a great lead, doing a no

12:42

run over. Dye Young told me

12:44

a story once about, do you

12:46

call Clackett, what do they call the studs

12:48

in Scotland? Clackett. Yeah, Clackett, sorry. He

12:51

said to Dye Young, he was like, in the middle of the

12:54

lines, he was like, Dye, you lie on the floor and we'll

12:56

run over you. Dye Young just

12:58

said, fuck off, I'm not doing

13:00

that. And Jim was like, what do you mean? He's like,

13:02

I'm not doing that. And apparently some would lie down and

13:04

just trample him. Yeah, the guy to the Scottish squad that

13:06

actually, they offer to go

13:08

and do that because Jim would love

13:10

that. So that would give a

13:12

little bit of a boost for them if they

13:15

did that and they sacrificed themselves. But this guy

13:17

here, I'll tell you how rude this thing was.

13:21

The week before we played England to the Grand Slam in 1990, here

13:24

we are, ding. It's not

13:26

the clock. 1990 was

13:28

a great year. Yeah, I bet. We

13:31

were playing Jed Forest and it was,

13:34

for us, if we won the game, we had

13:36

the game in hand. Because you was Sterling? Melrose.

13:39

Melrose, bigger than Melrose. So we had the game in

13:41

hand but if we beat Jed the week before the

13:43

Grand Slam game, we were in the league.

13:46

And it was quite a tight game.

13:48

Big crowd, 7,500, 8,000 at Melrose, watching the game and

13:52

I got a bang in the

13:54

head. I was seeing stars and I

13:57

heard Jim Telfer from the side shouting on. You

13:59

can't come on. He can't come off. He comes

14:01

off. He's out for three weeks. He can't play

14:03

against England next week. So obviously

14:05

I stayed on So

14:08

it's a jet it's a Jed scrum Picks

14:11

up the ball next scrum and runs So

14:18

Maybe play them week after for for Scotland

14:21

again in their biggest game of our lives

14:23

and he's running straight at me again Try and make me tackle

14:25

him again. Jesus Christ That's

14:27

a ritas he was but he was I

14:30

love that because it's always one of those especially

14:32

those old bottles between between clubs, you know Like

14:34

I it is funny, you know A lot of

14:37

people talk about being in a squad with play

14:39

especially with the Lions, you know when you guys

14:41

come together and there was old rivalries and because the

14:43

games were So much more

14:45

physical in the dark arts in a vertical as they

14:47

are now I think obviously the guys are bigger and

14:49

more fitter and the collisions are bigger But obviously you

14:51

weren't gonna get an elbow to the head or a

14:53

knee to the head now or more often or not

14:55

It is amazing that kind of you know Then

14:59

and if there's any player any map players near

15:01

the ball, they got shoot off of me Yeah, cuz

15:03

I wore the ball. Yeah, not nine times eight is

15:06

ten. I would probably shoot my Just

15:10

to get the ball away, but it's true

15:12

back in the club games in those days

15:14

The referee was the only person that was

15:16

impartial Okay,

15:18

that you know touch judge from Melrose.

15:20

Yeah touch judge from Jed Barra who

15:22

did it every week and They

15:25

couldn't put a flag up for it. So as

15:27

soon as the referees back was turned you a

15:29

fair game So

15:32

you were taught to protect yourself after you've

15:34

passed the ball Especially a 10 back

15:36

in those days because you got a lot of

15:38

you got a lot of late tackles Who were

15:41

the worst offenders in Scottish Club rugby at that

15:43

time? Oh For getting

15:45

your late. Well, just the ones we when

15:47

you went to the field you

15:49

knew that there was gonna be not Melrose

15:54

first time I would have played at Melrose.

15:58

I got tackled in the half way the ball was in

16:00

the 22 and I was just getting up and one of

16:02

them Macleish brothers run right over the top of me on

16:04

the halfway, slid right on my bat and I

16:06

was like what was all that about? That's

16:09

what they were like. Right. But

16:11

there was a great one, the

16:14

Colders, the Colders, Stuart Melville were

16:16

playing against Melrose and one of

16:18

my first games against, and

16:20

Finley was standing next to me, Finley Calder was

16:22

always outside. They should have gotten a white jersey

16:24

in that grand slam game thing. And

16:31

basically after the game, it was 97,

16:33

we lost the game and we

16:35

clappied each other in and

16:38

the next minute I knew there was punches getting

16:40

thrown, the Macleish brothers and the Calder brothers going

16:42

at it. And just

16:45

things like there was a guy Gary Waite

16:47

who was playing as Kelso and this guy

16:49

was a tiny shoelace in the

16:51

middle of the field and Tom Macleish

16:54

ran past and just hooked it from behind.

16:56

You know in the middle of the, yeah just

16:58

so much stuff went on back in those days.

17:02

And yeah. It was dangerous. It was very

17:04

dangerous. I'm not sure how I

17:06

survived but. It's

17:09

a very dangerous game to play. It was

17:11

better in my day than in Verdi's comments but

17:14

I think a lot of people look back with

17:16

extraordinary sort of nostalgia to what the sport was

17:18

when you were in your golf. I

17:20

wouldn't change the temperature. I mean we, there wasn't

17:23

the money. We were amateur until, well we

17:25

first started. He played 88, I was 89

17:28

but we had 79 years of

17:31

amateur international rugby. And

17:33

we had some great times but we were always competing. I mean

17:35

that first year we went to Paris. We

17:38

went to Paris to win a championship

17:40

and the next again year was, and then

17:43

we were well a couple of the next again year very

17:45

close. You know I thought it was like this every year.

17:48

When you start playing for Scotland, we

17:50

were very lucky to be in with

17:53

some really good senior pros. The

17:55

Calder, the Jefferies, the David Soules,

17:58

these players, the Hastings sisters. Yeah,

18:00

very good. These

18:04

guys, they helped us a lot. And

18:08

on and off the field. When

18:11

you played together, obviously, when you weren't playing off to each

18:13

other, trying to fill each other in, did you...

18:16

Were you a bit more of a protector? Craig,

18:19

were you looking after... If someone

18:21

came and hit him late, would you try and get him or

18:23

would you... Well, that's what team mates are for. Back

18:25

in the day, if Ennin kicked off, it was one

18:28

and all. Nowadays, you can't lay

18:30

a finger on anybody. There's a lot of eyes.

18:32

There's not many cameras going about, but back in

18:34

the day, it was all in and they could

18:36

only send one person off. Couldn't send the two

18:39

teams off. He was after me a lot. Because

18:41

any crap ball that came back from the forwards,

18:44

he would just stick on himself. Oh, really? And unfortunately, what

18:46

that meant was he was at the bottom of the

18:48

rock, and I got a pass

18:50

from Kenny Millender. John Jeffery was... I was

18:52

trying to catch it at all angles. But

18:54

it was... Yeah, he was after me. Not

18:57

always off the field. He was a bit of a naughty

18:59

boy off the field as far as... It would probably be

19:01

the worst room mate to be quite honest. Really? No, not

19:04

a lot of explanation. He was

19:06

just a pranks. He used to get up the

19:08

pranks. Right. Absolutely nightmare. He was just up in

19:10

the building industry though. That mind-set. He was getting

19:12

bored. Right to keep... Something to

19:14

do. I

19:16

always remember one time at the Del

19:18

Mahoy where Scott Hastings... He'd

19:20

never seen as many bubbles in this bath in my life before.

19:24

He did so much stuff. He'd cling film

19:26

in the toilets and you

19:28

come in after a night out and you'd

19:30

be spraying everywhere, you know? Or

19:33

the worst one that he said to me. He'd

19:36

come back in after a night out. We'd

19:38

always meet on Wednesday. We'd do a

19:40

few line-outs with the forwards and some kick-offs. Then

19:43

we'd go back to the hotel, get some food. This

19:45

is Wednesday before we played. And then we'd get

19:48

down to pub. Merlin,

19:50

King's Bar, Harry's Bar, then

19:52

Thing goes. And then you'd get a kebab

19:54

and then you'd be home. But you get back to

19:56

the cell and you'd just get into your bed. And

19:58

he'd always had to keef. for your room and

20:01

he filled it with broken biscuits. You know, the biscuits

20:03

you get and you go, oh, I don't know,

20:05

he did this. So you just jump in the bed and go

20:07

to sleep. Yeah, just stuff like that.

20:09

It's just annoying stuff. Do you know where I get you? Oh,

20:12

plenty of time. Really? Can you see him

20:14

in the light? If you fly with the clothes and you get

20:16

short of them, then you need to do it. Yeah, that's what

20:18

I mean. I never did that because I could, the retribution. So

20:21

you obviously made your debut for Scone a couple of months after

20:23

Gary. When you began, did you instantly

20:26

get on? Was it a friendship

20:28

from the start? Was it a respect or was

20:30

there a bit to work through? Well,

20:33

we played with Caleb at age group level,

20:38

but then, yeah, instantly we sort of

20:40

did click. We played for the South

20:42

of Scotland in this district

20:44

championship and we won that year. And

20:47

then we played in the trial together. We were in the

20:49

same team in the Scottish trial. We

20:51

played for the Reds against the Blues. I

20:54

mean, now we've lost the game. Do you like

20:56

those trial games? No. I

20:59

always, my heart would sink, like some size of

21:01

possible versus probable. You'd go and go, because

21:03

I had no problem, obviously

21:05

in training all the time, it would spill over, I

21:07

had plenty of training ground fights. You'd always have those

21:09

kind of wars. But as soon as you saw a

21:11

trial game, you were like, this is just gonna go

21:13

horribly wrong. It was fine when you weren't in the

21:15

team. But once you're in the team

21:17

and established, you didn't like them quite

21:19

so much. Yeah. You're gonna shot that. Yeah, exactly.

21:21

I think I got into training and anything in

21:23

general. Once you got pole positioning, I actually know.

21:26

So JJ, John and Jeffrey played in very few

21:28

trials, didn't they? JJ used to

21:30

always have a little hamstring injury before the trial.

21:35

Old head, my old head. Old head, smart, you know? It

21:38

could be a real losers position. But yeah, we got on

21:40

pretty well. We

21:42

always got on well off the field. And

21:45

some ways were quite different. But when

21:48

we got in the pitch, the communication, he'd

21:51

know where I was and he'd just chuck him and

21:53

try and catch him. And left, right,

21:55

yes, no. A little cold

21:57

fish and chips, ham and eggs. We're

22:00

going to fish and chips. Bogs, kegs. Would

22:03

you guys, like you said, would you hang

22:05

out? Because there's very few partnerships

22:07

in sport that actually sometimes it translates over because the

22:09

belief, especially members of the public when they watch a

22:11

team, that you've got to live and breathe, you've got

22:13

to spend every hour together on and off the field

22:15

to forge a partnership. But actually sometimes people can be

22:17

very different. Some of my best teammates, some of the

22:19

best people I've played with, we would

22:21

train together, we'd do extra work together, but we would

22:23

finish and we wouldn't necessarily spend any time in the

22:26

social situation. Were you guys different or

22:28

did you spend time together? Whether you have different hobbies or... Well,

22:30

we've got different hobbies and we didn't really spend

22:32

a lot of social time together, but if we

22:34

were having a pint, we'd meet

22:36

up and have a beer and we weren't

22:38

in one of those pockets. Just

22:41

when it came to playing the game, we

22:43

both wanted the same thing and that was to

22:45

win. Because when Tenz talked about his kind

22:48

of experience in the 1999 World Cup squad,

22:50

he said that he obviously looked at

22:52

Jeremy Guskert and Mike Cat and he

22:54

knew what that night out was going

22:56

to be about pretty high end

22:58

velvet rope, spots of champagne, and

23:01

then he said he saw the less contingent

23:03

Martin Johnson, Garth, round tree. And he looked

23:05

at that and he said, I don't know

23:07

what that's about. And he obviously tells the

23:09

fantastic story, went down a rabbit hole and

23:11

it was awful. Basically walked in there, round

23:13

trees in his pants, wrestling Garth, fourth on

23:15

the table, Chorolo punishing with a face like

23:17

gnarly and he obviously panics and calls up Dusket and

23:19

goes, can I still come? You

23:22

two are obviously with the introduction, you know,

23:24

junk yard dog, kind of, you know, like

23:27

standing around a bit more glitzy. Were

23:29

the nights out very different? Would you be, you know,

23:31

like you're building trade, background, you know. A

23:34

couple of times I've put on my bed, it's just a

23:36

pretty much right way. I'm supposed to be

23:38

very brassy, came home with a couple of big guests by the time I

23:41

had. I can imagine you were

23:43

a wine bar kind of man and you were sort

23:45

of an arm wrestling. I was still in the

23:47

place when he was in his red rain. Yeah, was

23:49

it like that? No, it wasn't like that. That was

23:51

a bit of a perception I think. I

23:54

think you know it too much. I

23:57

can see you're back when I'm like a dirty bar. You

24:00

were like, I'll rest your bloke with a cigarette on

24:02

the corner of the tattoo. Was it crazy? Yeah, it

24:04

was not like that. I was like, I'm wrestling anybody.

24:06

No, no. No, we

24:09

were quite different in many ways, but

24:13

we were very famous in a lot of

24:15

ways as well. Like mentality,

24:17

the way that we played

24:19

the game, we were both winners, we

24:21

both wanted to win desperately. And

24:24

we were both good team mates. We

24:27

looked after each other, but we

24:29

were big contributors to how the

24:32

team played and how the team was successful, I

24:34

think. We had great guys in front

24:36

of us, but a fantastic back row with Derek White, John

24:39

Jeffrey and from the Calder. There

24:41

is a front five as well, but they didn't

24:43

really get much of a mention. Then

24:45

the back line was crazy as

24:47

well. Tony Stanger, Two Cologne, Hastings

24:49

boys. Garej, John Manain, great

24:52

player. So we're

24:54

a great squad. We

24:57

got on so well. As Garej

24:59

said before, we don't see each

25:01

other that often. We should see

25:03

each other more. We don't see enough of

25:05

each other. That's true. But when we do

25:07

see each other, nothing's changed. This is the

25:09

same piss taking. We're bringing

25:11

you to death. Probably some stuff

25:14

you couldn't say on the show.

25:17

But we had a great time when we played. We

25:21

cycled a little bit now. We

25:24

got on the bike a few times with the Doddy

25:26

cycling charities and all that kind of

25:29

stuff, raising funds for MND. Gary

25:32

was obviously a big

25:34

mate of Doddy's because he went to Newcastle at the same time.

25:38

The bikes are now something. We needed to get

25:40

more on the bike and get

25:42

together more. But we knew a place back

25:44

then. There was a senior. The senior players,

25:46

they taught us how to be. And

25:49

we passed on to the young players in Urde. And

25:52

I think we've lost that in rugby. So it's their fault.

25:54

It's our death in sleep. Who were

25:56

your main people who oversaw

25:58

you coming in? Really? I used

26:00

to go hit my bat and my dad

26:02

would say, Jesus, Dad, that's when the Calder's

26:05

got in for me. And now

26:07

he's like a second dad because looking back,

26:09

I knew what he wanted. He made me the

26:11

player I probably was by just pushing me. In

26:13

what way? How would he do it? It would

26:15

pick me up on all my mistakes and drive

26:17

me that way. And

26:19

then you had John Jeffery there as well. They

26:22

looked after us on the field and off the field

26:25

and sort of molded us. And

26:27

I spotted that doing at Newcastle when all the

26:29

young guys came in for university. And

26:31

the biggest one was when Duddy was

26:33

there. We all had

26:35

our own pegs and they're changing them. Like probably

26:37

you have, and this young guy come in and

26:39

took Duddy's peg. Ooh, that's an excellent advice. Duddy

26:41

just walked in, took his clothes, dumped

26:44

them on the floor. You have to earn this peg.

26:47

And the young boy's like, phew. And that

26:49

was your senior order, but that's gone again. That's

26:51

gone and rubbed with... Wait a

26:54

second. Damien

26:56

Clonan, if we had no pegs, you'd

26:58

do the place where you changed and that you always

27:00

changed. We were always in that corner, you, me and

27:02

JJ in that corner. But Tom

27:04

Smith came in, young Tom, the late

27:06

great Tom Smith. And he came

27:08

in as a youngster, 20, 21 years old. And

27:13

he used to change, he put his

27:15

bag down in Damien's place. And Damien

27:17

came in. Damien wasn't like, Damien just

27:19

decided, like

27:21

fisting, not fastling, not

27:24

scrapping, but had each other by

27:26

the colour. He chucked

27:28

his stuff away and they picked it up and he chucked tens

27:30

of stuff away. It was like, kids are

27:32

the playground. This

27:35

is a fore-training. That's the

27:37

thing going, knock shit out of each other

27:39

on the training park. But yeah, absolutely, I

27:42

saw it. But you always had your spot

27:44

and you earned your place in the changing

27:46

room. And you knew your

27:48

place as well. We

27:50

certainly did. At this point, just a

27:52

very quick note from our friends at NordVPN who are back

27:55

and are offering good, bad and rugby lessons for an exclusive

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deal. Did you know if you are

27:59

abroad during the Six Nations? You can switch your virtual

28:01

location to back home so you can access your streaming

28:03

services to watch the game. Kins is away skiing at

28:05

the moment, so he's been tucked into this over the

28:07

course of the weekend. And what's quite interesting is looking

28:09

at Gary and Craig who have gone very quiet. So

28:12

they're like, what the hell are we talking about? What

28:14

is the VPN? He's now going to give the good

28:16

people north of the border a quick lesson on NordVPN.

28:19

So NordVPN is basically, if

28:22

you get a VPN, it protects your online security,

28:24

protects people from hacking you, you know, people can't

28:26

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and stuff abroad and movies and favorite TV series.

28:30

So when I lived in France and Japan, I had a

28:32

VPN to watch that, you

28:35

know. I think there's a documentary in getting Gary

28:37

connected to NordVPN. That's going to

28:39

be a six-pop internet. Can

28:43

you hear me? I know the VPN, internet. Is

28:46

there anybody out there? I like that. It's an IT

28:48

crowd. There's an

28:50

episode of IT crowd, and you've got to have a TV to see it.

28:52

But today, the woman tells the internet it's in a box, and he just

28:54

carries it, because I've

28:56

got the internet on, if he doesn't exist. I imagine

28:58

I could trick Gary. Frank Gary thinks he's got the internet

29:00

on his car. Are we taking a piss

29:02

unnecessarily? Are you a tech guru? No. No,

29:05

this is fair game. I've still got a daily text, man. Amazing.

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C-Facts. C-Facts101. To

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A two-year plan and a bonus gift

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if you sign up there, and the

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link is in the podcast episode description.

29:26

Boss, 1990. We've got to get into

29:28

it. So we'll talk the decider at the moment,

29:30

too. But how well did you guys play in

29:33

the preceding rounds to that grandson? Because as

29:36

England fan, I can remember very clearly, it

29:38

was a special England team that had put together

29:41

some amazing performances. But had you matched that?

29:43

Did you feel you were a team writer?

29:46

The only game you really performed in was

29:48

the French game. Yeah. And I think it

29:50

was because they had 14 men. They got

29:52

a man sent off because of Stamped and John

29:54

Jeffrey. Right. Caminati, I

29:56

think. That's the only game we really

29:58

dominated. We struggled in Wales, we come away

30:01

with a 13-9 win. And

30:03

we struggled against Ireland. First up in

30:05

Ireland was 13-9 as well. Everyone

30:10

always talks about five or six nations,

30:12

the importance of momentum. Was it something

30:14

that you felt building throughout the course?

30:17

Definitely, sure. Who would have thought that

30:19

you'd be playing England? Winter takes all

30:21

at Murrayfield. And

30:23

you didn't actually realise what kind of bubble you're

30:25

in until you're old and looking back. And

30:29

building up to that game, there was no way we would go to win.

30:32

The press had England's strong favourites. Even

30:35

Jim Telver said, right, I'm not

30:37

going to anybody read the paper, I'm going to tell England

30:39

that they're unbeatable. And they started to

30:41

believe their own press a wee bit. And

30:43

we knew that we had a chance at

30:45

Murrayfield. And the senior players had

30:47

decided, right, instead of running out of Murrayfield, we would

30:50

walk out. And

30:52

I always remember the noise when we walked

30:54

out into Murrayfield. It was just unbelievable for

30:57

the start of that game right to the

30:59

finish. But the build-up for the Dalmahoy Inn

31:01

was just something special. The

31:03

whole Edinburgh was buzzing that day. In

31:05

those days, the teams didn't get

31:07

up together. They went out individually, so the way

31:09

team was always going first. And I

31:11

always remember that day, we

31:14

waited. We left England out there for quite

31:17

a while before we actually went out. Because

31:20

it was pretty fierce out there. There

31:22

was all that Margaret Thatcher stuff going on. Were

31:26

you aware of the political attack? Who was

31:28

politics? Mum and Dad played

31:30

the poll tack. I lived at home, so I was

31:32

looking at a way to poll tack. But,

31:36

yeah, so we left them out there

31:38

with four or five knocks in the

31:40

door. And David Solonstone, the senior player,

31:42

was just leaving there. And

31:44

then we walked out. The

31:46

Hastings boys, I mean, the guys, only

31:49

four or five guys were allowed to talk to the press.

31:51

So we weren't allowed to talk to

31:53

the press at all, the younger guys. Four

31:56

or five senior players were doing the talk at the press. But it

31:58

was a guy who was just... the guys

32:01

said that you know that the senior players talked about

32:03

walking out and they even before that

32:05

though you can even when we arrived at

32:07

Murrayfield you walk onto the pitch to see

32:09

what it's like even walking on the field

32:11

they look to the right and here's all

32:13

the English players with their wis getting their

32:15

photos taken and think yeah a little bit

32:18

and the games not even played and they're

32:20

getting these photos taken their moment this moment

32:23

at Murrayfield it just gets your

32:25

heckles up a little bit. England came to

32:27

play. England had wiped to side everybody

32:29

yeah into that game and they were

32:32

super confident they were staying down in

32:34

Peebles, Peebles Hydro I think

32:36

they were staying down there and think that a few

32:38

things had gone wrong in the hotel plus

32:40

there was the old car alarm trick.

32:42

We had that in our hotel last night. Wrong

32:46

hotel, Murray. The

32:52

night before the game that our gaming against England

32:54

we were the alarm went off and Jim Telfel

32:56

was out in the car park with his slippers

32:58

on at about three in the morning some Englishman

33:01

who was staying at the hotel had lit the

33:03

fire alarm off at three or four in

33:05

the morning. They got off to get out

33:07

apart from Jim. The

33:09

English boys were staying at Peebles Hydro and

33:11

they had like a tapestry

33:13

of panic burn you know which maybe

33:15

was a little bit of omen for

33:18

us because when it came to Murrayfield

33:20

on the Saturday I think they were

33:22

super confident and they were right to

33:24

be super confident because they were a

33:26

very very good team a talented

33:28

team but they probably got the biggest

33:30

lesson which made them even stronger to win

33:33

those three grand farms in the next three or four

33:35

years that they did. They tried to come and play

33:37

rugby and we just we just kept knocking them down.

33:42

One point in the first half we took a quick

33:44

penalty and I fed it to Finley Calder and

33:47

you run into the 22 England

33:49

and stopped dead and then all of

33:52

a sudden the Scottish forwards got behind them and

33:54

drove them for about ten yards and that set

33:56

the stall the whole game. England

33:58

knew they were in a game from that Apparently they're like

34:00

oh shit here to come and that's what was like

34:02

the whole game No, I think that was I think

34:04

that was a turning point I think that was a

34:07

mean the main thing of the game like they gave

34:09

us the belief You know, yeah,

34:11

they gave her forwards the belief anyway that they could match

34:13

the English forwards and you know and and Physically

34:16

physically they were huge compared to us But

34:20

it's like the big turning point as well after the hat

34:22

after that came at when

34:24

Gavin kicked it straight out the kickoff and

34:27

and England's

34:29

crumb halfway line and then we

34:31

knocked it on Tiki was at number eight knocked it off And

34:34

then we got a scrum and our try came from

34:36

that move up Gary at

34:39

the blindside to Gavin Gavin kicked over the

34:41

over the top and Tony's

34:43

danger Picked it out of

34:45

there. Tony was struggling to make that game Roger

34:48

Baird was in standby wasn't he? He was

34:50

in standby to come in because Tony had

34:53

his shoulder or something he showed it but

34:55

somehow Found it pick

34:57

pick the ball at the sky and put

34:59

it down on on the deck. I think

35:04

Was given thankfully, thankfully, there's no TMO

35:06

back in those days But yeah,

35:09

and that was a massive turning point, but just

35:11

small small margins and you know, ask, you know,

35:13

you It's

35:15

mom test match. I'll be now is small margins.

35:17

It was then and it is now. Yeah, I

35:19

wasn't asked you, you know So

35:22

whenever we obviously being an Englishman Everyone

35:24

fundamentally hates us. We kind of quite used to that we But

35:31

the you kind of see it with the six naysh

35:33

because it encapsulate encapsulates the rivalry obviously guys were so

35:35

good and what as you said were on that kind

35:37

of pathway up to a World

35:40

Cup semi did you you know, was there do you

35:42

remember now obviously you talked about the Margaret Thatcher But

35:44

was there a real passion was there always a really

35:46

desire to be England more so than anyone else or?

35:50

As it overplayed you think because I always imagine the old-school

35:52

guys It seems to be a bit more of a rivalry

35:54

in the now you always get an extra 10% Yeah,

35:57

let's go to England. Yeah, I see me you

35:59

guys doing and there's always that 10% that

36:01

you didn't have to ask for. It's there. Yeah. Just

36:03

because of the rivalry. Yeah. I think the war is

36:05

a little bit, but not a lot. I mean, I

36:08

wish we could have... You must have known a lot

36:10

of them from 89. Yeah, we did.

36:12

You know, most of my roommates in the Lions 2

36:14

and 89 were English forwards because you always share with

36:16

a back and a forward and, how do you like

36:18

Dweed Dooley or Paul Ackford or... What was that like?

36:21

Cute chief. That was scary. I'm more. Were they? Yeah,

36:24

we put someone to work at Brockwood and our ministry.

36:26

And we was guys choker and I didn't really know

36:28

much about guys choker. Yeah. Before the

36:30

tour. But I read a bit of an article

36:32

about him and it said that he would have

36:34

been in jail if it hadn't been for rugby.

36:36

So, quite a stressful week. Quite a

36:38

lovely back to the ring out. He went out of

36:40

your cocktail, shaking your vermice, and he's taking the sawdust

36:43

down and... He got whatever he wanted to be, really.

36:45

But, what a lovely guy. What a great team. So,

36:47

you used to put the backs to the forwards, didn't

36:49

you? Yeah, yeah. Because on 2017, we

36:51

just... I mean, they just

36:53

stuffed with Sean Edwards. Not Sean Edwards. Sean O'Brien. Sean

36:55

O'Brien, who just made me look after him. And he

36:57

just stole everything crap with the door open, which is

36:59

a terrifying experience in itself. But what

37:01

was... Wait, who stood out as the

37:04

kind of worst roommate out of those lads? And

37:06

then, in particular, like, remember, someone said that Josh... So,

37:09

you shared with Josh, and she woke up and he was naked stretching.

37:12

You know, which is pretty, you know... None of them were

37:14

bad, you sure? No,

37:16

no, they're all pretty good. Some

37:19

are quieter than others. And they're obviously a quite

37:21

quiet guy. But,

37:23

mate Teague was brilliant, apart from... I

37:26

wasn't... There's no excuse for losing the first test, but...

37:29

Teague was meant to play the first test

37:31

match against Australia, but he cried off with

37:33

an injury, as did Julie was injured. That

37:36

was probably two, you know, of our main

37:38

forwards not playing. But...

37:41

So, he called off, by still ruining them. And

37:44

he had two teammates across from

37:46

Gloucester following the tour. Fullback

37:48

Tim Smith and a guy called

37:51

Simon Devereaux. And instead of,

37:53

like, staying in their own hotel, they stayed

37:55

in my room two nights before... They

37:58

came and lashed at three or four in the morning. morning

38:00

Thursday night and Friday night, the night before I

38:02

asked for my very first test of the lines,

38:04

you come climbing into the room at two or

38:06

three in the morning waking me up, you know,

38:09

the day before my, the night

38:11

before my biggest day of my life, I came to

38:13

test match with the lines, so yeah. Just get back

38:15

to 1990, do you remember the celebrations? Or

38:18

were they so good you don't? You don't. Do

38:20

you remember the impact? I mean it's still one

38:22

day. I do remember, I do remember it. That

38:25

morning, and I talked about it in Elastic

38:27

and the radio station with McCoist and Jeff

38:29

Stelling, we do everything for prostate

38:32

cancer and I was shamed

38:34

with John Jeffrey. Okay, so John,

38:36

if you're shamed with John Jeffrey, it's a nightmare

38:38

if you want any sleep, because he's a farmer,

38:41

so he's up at six in the morning throwing

38:43

his shoe at you to get you up, not to get

38:45

up for breakfast but to get the kettle on to make

38:47

the tea, because he was more experienced

38:49

than me. I'm up,

38:51

make a cup, boil the kettle, through the bathroom,

38:53

get the water and the kettle, boil,

38:57

get my cup of tea, and then as soon as

38:59

you get that, you're getting back out of bed. He

39:01

goes, right, come on, let's go, breakfast. So down for

39:03

breakfast, then you're back in the room by half past

39:05

seven. He goes for a bath,

39:07

and the phone rings, this is the morning of

39:10

the game, 1990. It's

39:13

Alan McCoist on the phone. He goes, is the white

39:15

shark there? He goes, well, the white shark's in the

39:17

bath having a swim. Preparation

39:19

for the big game today. He goes,

39:21

I'm looking for two tickets for me and my mate Noxy.

39:26

For the game today, can you sort it out? Game

39:29

Sunnis was the coach, manager,

39:32

arranger, the red giant, and Koisti had basically

39:34

pulled a sickie and said, I have a

39:36

shame. He loved this rugby, he was everything.

39:38

Yeah, he loved it. So we got him

39:40

two tickets sorted out, and he came to

39:43

the game, and he came to the after

39:46

match function, and after

39:48

we'd done all the dinner and stuff, because in

39:50

those days, you all had a big dinner, and

39:53

you got smashed together, and then you went out.

39:55

We went to a little place called the Tron Tavern,

39:57

which is a tron. Yeah, that's called the Tron Tavern.

40:00

was that by Nori Raun? Yeah,

40:02

yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. Nori Raun

40:04

owned it at the time, that's good

40:06

knowledge. We've got a proper keynote. Oh,

40:08

the University up in Edinburgh. So remember,

40:10

is there an amazing story about you

40:12

playing Romania? Yes. And Nori Raun snuggled

40:14

one of them? Christian Raunacanu. That's right.

40:16

He snuggled them out when it was,

40:18

when they were, yeah, he snuggled them

40:20

into the vault and hid them there

40:22

for days and he got asylum. That's

40:24

right. And he's now

40:26

a multimillionaire. Is that right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. They

40:29

were talking about it and started at the

40:31

event that was at. Nori was there. Yeah.

40:33

He's a superstar now. Amazing. He played Proxcon

40:35

as well, isn't he? Yeah, he started as

40:37

the ghost tours around the city. So yeah,

40:40

so, so Coisty was out that night with us

40:42

in the pub, in the Trontavon, and he was

40:44

obviously a Rangers player and all the Hibbs fans,

40:46

or a few Hibbs fans, and give him a

40:48

hard time. But then he's got such a gift

40:50

of the gab. He just talked them round and

40:52

they were banging pints and you know, but

40:55

that next again, the day after, I got

40:57

back to bed at some point, can't remember

40:59

when, but I got knocked

41:01

on the door and we'd committed to

41:04

playing a charity football game next

41:06

again day. I know, I know. And who's

41:08

at the door? Who's at the

41:10

door? John Jeffrey. We'd agreed to do with John

41:12

Jeffrey. So John Collins, prefer

41:14

the Celtic, Fulham, Monaco.

41:17

He was playing as well. He's a local borders

41:20

boy. So we're doing this at the borders general

41:22

hospital just outside Melrose. So I had to get

41:24

up and go down there and get dressed up

41:26

as a nurse. The day

41:28

after the grand slam. Wow. There's

41:32

no man in there. But

41:36

yeah, but J.J. was there and I

41:38

knew what, he just did

41:40

what you were told. Yeah, I was a

41:43

junior player, I was inexperienced and he was senior player

41:45

and he was banging my door and I knew if

41:47

I didn't get up, he'd knock a door down. Why

41:49

was he called the great, the great white shark? I

41:52

think it was because they went to Trinidad once and

41:55

he came out of the water, the Prince Evans,

41:57

and he came out of the water and someone

41:59

said. He was still white, but

42:02

he was a pretty white shark. I

42:05

think that's how he got it. I'm sad it's that,

42:07

and it's not to say he hunted back roads around

42:09

the world in every test match he'd made, and it

42:11

didn't look great on the beach, but yeah. What happened

42:13

to you on that night? To

42:15

be honest, I kind of remember. I

42:17

started racing in style. I kind of bet.

42:20

I wasn't wearing bad. No,

42:22

I just started on the bus in the way back

42:24

of the hotel. Really? Champagne the whole

42:26

lot. There was a

42:29

lot of singing going on, a

42:31

lot of fans at the hotel,

42:33

and it's just unbelievable.

42:36

On Monday morning, we were all at jobs, so we

42:38

went back to work. You

42:40

were Scottish power. What did you do

42:42

for them? No very much.

42:46

What's the difference between Craig Chambers and

42:48

Santa Claus? Santa

42:52

Claus always. He's getting

42:54

hot. Scottish

42:59

power were brilliant to me. They were absolutely fantastic.

43:03

I joined Scottish power. My

43:05

dad worked for Scottish power, and I got a job in the office at the YTS.

43:08

As soon as I got in there, I started

43:10

doing that, and progressing

43:12

with Merugby, they started putting me through

43:14

the company and the sales and marketing

43:17

and all kinds of stuff. So PR.

43:20

They were brilliant, and it was good for them, and it

43:22

was good for me. But they

43:24

get a lot of hard time off. Some

43:27

of the co-workers, they were a little bit

43:29

pissed off when I was going off to

43:31

Australia for two months in the lines too.

43:33

But hey, here's what it

43:36

is. We did a show before the Robbie

43:38

Warkup with Princess Anne,

43:40

it's Tim's mother in law, of course. She was talking about

43:42

1990 and reeling off the team,

43:44

and very quickly said that you were

43:46

a long-haul lorry driver. I

43:48

remember even being that age, and sort of remembering it. Was

43:51

that your company? How many hours a week did you spend on

43:53

the road? That wasn't in

43:55

my company then, but Finley organised a

43:58

job for me through the rugby. And

44:00

I worked for a company called Day & Hour Gold

44:02

at the time. And he just led

44:04

grain about. Finley gave him work

44:06

and we hauled the grain about. So

44:08

I worked for him and I worked time off the train. That's

44:11

what it was like back in the day. He needed an employer

44:13

that would give you time off to go on the train. So

44:16

I done a lot of that and it was long hours. You're

44:20

away at 4 or 5 o'clock in the morning.

44:23

Do your driving hours. You didn't get parked up to

44:25

your untime at night. You

44:27

always go back to training. Thursday, Thursday,

44:29

Sunday. Played in the Saturday. Long

44:34

working week. You then had

44:36

your own business off the back of that? I had my

44:38

own business off the back of playing, finishing,

44:40

being a professional. I bought a wholeage company and I

44:42

had that for 8 years. Do

44:45

you miss life on the road? No

44:47

really, not. I

44:50

mainly go to Newcastle. And

44:53

I was always used to working. And

44:55

when we went to Newcastle, I used to train

44:57

from 8 till 10. And then Blackie would

44:59

say, right, that's you for the day boys. I'm

45:01

like, eh, it's

45:04

only 10 o'clock, Blackie. We could do something else.

45:06

No, no. Professional

45:08

rugby is all about rest. Get

45:10

your cell away home. So I used to go home and

45:12

I would be sitting on my boys' cumbing at Jed till

45:15

1 o'clock and after, noon till 11 o'clock at night,

45:17

cumbing. And then I'd come

45:19

back to the sharing the next day.

45:21

Take my two hours and then back and work on

45:23

the farm again. I

45:27

wish my professional rugby was about rest. It

45:29

turned out at like 7.30, I'd walk out the door at like

45:31

6.30, over a million sessions

45:33

a day. I think that's the biggest problem with a lot

45:36

of teams you see sometimes coming in to start at

45:38

the 6.80s, for example, or going into World Cup camps

45:41

or World Cup warmers, they play really badly and they

45:43

say, are we training through? And we push the guys,

45:45

it's like mad, I think. We were lucky because we

45:47

had Blackie and he'd been in professional football. Steve

45:50

Barr was unbelievable. And he had nothing on

45:52

paper. It was all up here. He'd push

45:54

it to your limit. And I

45:56

always remember when George Graham joined the Falcons, we were

45:58

at St Jimbries Park and it was... was

46:01

domestic departure was halfway up the steps in

46:03

the stadium and the international departure

46:06

was right to the top and

46:08

you know what George Graham's like, he's

46:10

no battle with it coming forward and

46:12

it was always harder coming down, two steps at a

46:14

time right to the top walking down was a nightmare

46:16

taking you away. We got to the stairs

46:19

where George was saying right I'm going to

46:21

tell Blackie stick his job up his arse I'm going to run up

46:23

the hill again. Right up we go

46:25

and away we are again. And it was

46:27

fair to tell Blackie that that was it.

46:30

And just at the minute he was about to

46:32

tell Blackie right away, never sure, he'd done enough that

46:34

he pushed you right to that limit and then sent

46:36

you away. And then the

46:38

rest of the time was rest or

46:40

if he'd come in and he'd feel very

46:42

great today Blackie, just get your

46:45

son the jersey, we need you for Saturday.

46:47

I never had him at all

46:49

but he didn't know great amount. He'd pull

46:51

the pin and do the right

46:53

thing for the players. He was a real

46:55

players coach wasn't he? I've watched him push

46:58

the forwards, Dean Ryan, they almost collapsed in

47:00

the gym with full stacks, full

47:02

stacks on the machine. And

47:04

then Blackie would just go in and say what's wrong with

47:07

your boys it's not a problem because he had

47:09

wee short arms, he was in Britain Manstone

47:11

competitions and he just pushed it off as

47:13

if there was no weights on it. That

47:15

Newcastle team, I mean just recall

47:17

some of those names because that was sort of

47:20

the early Galactico's really. Would you remember those days

47:22

of winning the league? Well as soon as the

47:24

game went professional, Doddy and me decided Robert

47:27

approached us and said

47:30

we'll have a

47:32

meeting and we went

47:34

to Otterburn for a secret meeting which

47:37

lasted about two minutes before people come across

47:39

and ask for autographs. And

47:43

they invited us down to have a look around the

47:45

place and Doddy picked me up, I lived in Gellertime,

47:47

Doddy picked me up and we were doing as far

47:49

as Belsey and we thought it was a

47:51

secret. Two Scottish in and asked us about the

47:53

same for the Falcon and we were

47:55

like oh shit Doddy, what do we do now? We'll just

47:57

keep going. But what? What

48:00

we didn't realise was the pitch wasn't doing well

48:02

by the Marrow Centre, we had to phone and

48:04

get directions. We didn't know

48:06

where the pitch was. So

48:08

I arrived at Kingston Park. We

48:10

had a look around Kingston Park and Rob Androby and

48:12

Rob Andrews says, I'll take you to St. James's because

48:15

it's part of the sporting club. And

48:17

no one to us, it was the day

48:19

they were signing Mr. Underwood. So

48:21

most of the press were at St.

48:24

James's. So

48:26

naive, looked around the gym, oh, take you up

48:28

to the boardroom. And as soon

48:30

as we opened the door, the nations press were

48:32

there and Duddy and me walked in and like,

48:34

oh, shit, we've been stabbed. We'd make

48:36

up for very good spies, you know? You've got to

48:38

say no. Walked in and they're like, oh, we couldn't

48:40

have put the gym, no, no, no. Was

48:43

he a full stitch up there, fully flanged? Yeah, yeah,

48:45

yeah. I'm like Rob Andrews to do that.

48:48

Still staying for him. Yeah, I bet he did.

48:50

You got a nice Volvo and I got a

48:52

proton. You got a Volvo, did you?

48:54

No, he promised us a Volvo and we ended up

48:56

with a proton. Right, wow. Am I

48:58

telling you, he's one of the best.

49:01

But it's the best move we ever

49:03

made. Yeah. Got a Newcastle and the

49:05

players that Rob bought and bought in

49:08

was just phenomenal. That was Tugamara

49:10

as well, yeah. Tugamara, Dean Ryan,

49:12

Pat Lamb. Tugamara, Stimson was there,

49:14

Hunderwood was there, Russ Snesdale, we

49:16

heard Popo Well, Archer,

49:20

Bentley came. Yeah. I

49:24

saw him the other day, I love that man. Yeah, icon

49:26

of the life. I

49:28

mean, were they some of the most fun

49:30

days you've had? I mean, obviously winning things

49:32

with Scotland, but as a club team, that

49:34

was, you won the league with that lot? You

49:37

had a young... Do you want to tell me about a championship team?

49:39

Yeah. Where Duddy was a captain and... To

49:43

be there was like a dream. Yeah. And

49:45

to be paid for playing was even better. Yeah.

49:48

And that was the first sort of professional

49:52

club, was Newcastle. But

49:54

Sir John Hall wasn't along to get a newt of the game

49:56

and he decided he wasn't going to make any money. He

49:59

sold the club off. when Mr. Thompson

50:01

came along. We

50:03

were very successful the first couple of years. We set

50:05

up in the second division, got promotion. When

50:08

everybody was gunning for

50:10

us, we were like the English. Everybody

50:13

hated us in the Premier League. When

50:16

Newcastle, the original kind of created a team, because I

50:18

thought maybe Richmond had done that. They both went first,

50:20

I think. Oh,

50:22

Richmond. Yeah. They had the Quinnells.

50:24

That was the first ever game where we were going to

50:26

watch Don Chapman. That was the

50:29

sort of play-off in the lower divisions.

50:31

It was between Richmond and Newcut. Oh, really?

50:34

I remember going to watch my first ever game with the

50:36

Quinnell brothers, picked up some of the players, swung them and

50:38

threw them into the stands. Jesus

50:41

Christ. The Dominic Chapman, you know, Scorrie

50:43

tries to find them. Ben

50:46

Clarke at eight, a team show at nine.

50:48

I think Brian Moore played them for Ben

50:50

Clarke. Yeah, it was mad, because that was

50:52

my first introduction where obviously now we look

50:54

back, realise how unusual it was for people

50:56

to create teams. It's not really been repeated.

50:58

Saracen's tried it so many times. Pienaar and

51:00

all these other guys that they had in

51:02

Cafton Ed, but then no one ever was

51:04

able to recreate it, because then when the salary

51:07

cap came, it kind of stopped all that building

51:09

a team by numbers. You can look at the

51:11

negative. It's worrying fact that Israel

51:13

could be sustainable. The Premiership club is awestruck,

51:15

and they've all got massive debt behind them.

51:17

They've got the worst are away, the worst

51:19

are away. It is quite

51:21

concerning. We've talked about that quite a number

51:23

of times on

51:26

the show about sustainability and what's actually going

51:28

to happen and whether we

51:30

need to kind of, some

51:32

of it needs to collapse or rebuild it properly, because I

51:35

think some of the old beliefs are probably hampering it a

51:37

little bit. But

51:39

we'll have to see, because we all love it. It's amazing. We

51:43

try to never be, we always try to look on

51:45

the positive side, but sometimes it's quite hard. But when

51:47

you sit down with you lads, you hear the kind

51:49

of stories and the nostalgia and the kind of adventures,

51:51

you realise what a major game was. Then it makes

51:53

you sort of self-reflect and you're like, where was I?

51:55

Wouldn't that happen? What happened? It's

51:58

an amazing game. We've done a fair amount of celebrating in 1990. So

52:00

we've got to ask about 1991 and the World Cup

52:02

semi-final lost thing. I think it was 96 Wasn't

52:05

it? Is that an itch now you wish you

52:07

could scratch? So was there You

52:11

if you had a pound Forever time someone

52:13

asked about 1990 and a pound for every time

52:15

someone's asked about 91 which would have made

52:17

you more money True in

52:19

91 really? Yeah, I

52:22

think I think it's I think it's a It's

52:25

one of those ones that I kicked I

52:28

kicked I kicked during the grand slam season 1990 Yeah,

52:31

I got to cover from Gavin because Gavin kept

52:33

missing the short ones So I

52:35

took over anything from 40 meters and I would

52:37

take and he would take anything

52:39

longer and then Went to

52:41

New Zealand that that summer.

52:43

That's right. I'm very close. He should've should've

52:46

but Gavin kicked in with the balls there

52:48

cuz You know, he liked

52:50

them better. So yeah, yes, you got he

52:52

got kicking back and then

52:54

91 five nations I kicked

52:57

again right through that and

53:00

then World Cup I started the

53:02

World Cup as first-choice kicker in But

53:06

the ball I didn't like the ball. They

53:08

were floating. They were like web Ellis No

53:10

web Ellis and the adapter that was on

53:12

the panel not on the seam. It was

53:15

just different But I got

53:17

I got a dead leg against Japan in

53:19

the opening game and Gavin took over

53:22

the kicking in that game And he was

53:24

kicking beautifully. So we just let him

53:27

kick against Ireland's Samoa

53:31

In England the semi-final and he hadn't missed wrapped

53:34

to that kick That's what

53:36

four or five minutes ago and just right of

53:38

the post I mean, you know, it

53:41

was Gavin had taken a knock. He took a

53:43

bit contact. We're actually battering the English line and

53:46

He took the ball to contact and he said he got a

53:48

bit of a dead leg And he said you should given it

53:51

to me you to be fair It could give it to anybody

53:53

in the team and do you the kick But

54:00

yeah, I mean honestly, it just, it

54:02

kicked so well, it kicked everything, but

54:05

to miss that one, I mean yeah, I

54:07

mean it would have put us 9'6 up

54:09

with a few minutes to go and then England

54:12

went down at the end and some little

54:14

fucker called Rob Andrew dropped the goal. Which

54:17

you've, I mean if you were six foot,

54:20

I mean let's brush your fingers. Oh, geez,

54:22

it was so close. I mean, there's moments

54:24

like when you like, when it is that

54:26

close. When you think, you know sometimes

54:28

you think of the dreams going, like you always recreate

54:30

and go, oh, I've just done this or imagine that

54:32

had happened and then you sometimes forget. It is, it

54:34

is and you know, you look back at it and

54:37

there is regrets, you know, there

54:39

are regrets, but you can't, you

54:41

can't, you can't dwell on it too much. You've had enough good

54:43

days. That's the beauty of sport, why we love it, like obviously

54:45

the Super Bowl was on, I always think when you watch people

54:47

come off the bus, none of them know

54:49

what's going to happen and each one of them dreams that they're

54:51

going to lift it, but at the end of it someone is

54:53

always going to be heartbroken because that's how, you know, someone's going

54:55

to have to make a mistake. Like

54:58

the 49ers player fumbling

55:00

the pump return, you

55:03

know, playing in someone's hands, someone, you know, luckily

55:05

no one missed a field goal, you know, not

55:07

making it kick. It's not

55:09

his fault, it doesn't make any, it's, you know,

55:11

it's not intentional, but the course of history follows

55:13

on for it. That's why we love it. I

55:15

always find that the most interesting having been there,

55:18

you know. You don't forget it and, you know,

55:20

Gavin's always going to have missed it, you know,

55:22

that can't, that won't change. Somebody else, he'll deal

55:24

with it, but I mean, he deals with it

55:26

really well, but it does get a lot of

55:28

stick because it probably gets more mentions than the

55:31

Galslam, to be honest with you, because it's

55:33

what could have been, you know, and

55:35

it wasn't. But again, the World Cup, isn't it? Yeah.

55:38

So, yeah, yeah. That's a bit of a glitch,

55:41

a wee bit. Yeah, but someone else, in an

55:43

alternate universe, he kicked it and

55:45

you won. Somebody wears it. Right. If you want

55:47

a win, you know. The Marvel movies that anything

55:49

could go by, you guys will World Cup winners

55:51

somewhere. It's funny because when we were in number,

55:53

on the way in that day, the

55:56

bus, we came in this roundabout, it's safe.

56:00

hill and all the bags came outside of the

56:02

bus. Wow. Don't

56:05

remember that. We were trying to be alright. We

56:07

had to stop the bus and

56:09

we all put the bags back into

56:11

the bus and the very opposite is pub.

56:14

So we went in to

56:16

the ground, played the match obviously but

56:18

after losing the game we decided

56:21

on the way back out that we go into

56:23

this pub opposite where

56:25

the bags came out and we all

56:28

went into this pub, like a real

56:30

rough drinking man's pub in Sate Hill

56:32

and we all walked in with a chut

56:34

and tie on and had to pint with

56:36

all these locals and stuff and just chilled

56:39

out. It was a

56:41

real kind of crazy thing to

56:43

do. Probably a bit dangerous as

56:45

well because Sate Hill was pretty rough but

56:47

yeah, just little things like that that you

56:49

remember about the day. What do

56:51

you make of the fact that you two were the last grand

56:54

slam for Scotland and you obviously played a nice, you

56:56

were on the bench in Nightime. And you

56:58

were both part of the last Scotland side to

57:00

win the championship. It's been a long time between

57:02

drinks. Obviously this year the grand slam's gone but

57:06

does that, Q is it sad new?

57:08

Is it just part of where the sport is

57:10

right now? Gary? Well I think you

57:12

can, we've looked at some games and

57:15

you think oh this is Scotland's year and

57:17

the win won two games and then someone

57:19

happens to them and I think

57:22

we're in a spell under Gregor at the minute.

57:24

This team's now got long left before there's a

57:26

new batch of players all coming. The

57:29

lost on Saturday and that's the, the dream's sort

57:31

of gone for winning any championship and what have

57:34

you. And you start losing at home's

57:36

no good. You have to win your

57:38

home games in the Six Nations and

57:41

to win in Wales and come back to

57:43

play at Murrayfield, they should have won that

57:45

game long before or the thing at the

57:48

end, they should have had that game wrapped up. If

57:51

I was capped then I would have taken three points just before half

57:53

the win. I would have went in 16-10 up. The

57:57

run the first penalty, it wasn't successful, that's when I would

57:59

have taken three points. taking the points, but they try it

58:01

again and they give a pen out of the way. And

58:03

that's the way this team is. And

58:06

you don't know, when they're on

58:08

their game, they're fantastic to watch, but

58:10

when they drop off that performance

58:12

level, they turn a very

58:15

normal team, and I think that's how

58:17

France come back and pinch the wins. Having

58:20

said that, they have had the best

58:22

of the Calcutta Cup recently, and that's got a

58:24

woman old man's heart. Oh definitely, yeah. I

58:27

think this is the best bunch of players for a long time.

58:29

I think since Finn came in about

58:31

2.11, 2.12, that kind of time,

58:33

I think he was

58:35

very erratic just when he came in first, but he's

58:37

matured as such a world-class

58:40

player now. And I think...

58:42

Someone might say he's whatever the line was, not

58:44

lacking in confidence, I think. There's something around that

58:46

jersey. He's not going to

58:48

be a champion. Yeah, he doesn't, but he's

58:50

got full of belief in what he can

58:52

do and his ability. I think

58:54

he's a totally rounded player now. He's

58:57

got everything. And

58:59

just the way he draws people onto him, he's not the

59:01

fastest guy in the world, he's not the most physical

59:03

guy in the world, but he gets stuck in as well.

59:05

He likes to tackle, he doesn't shirk a tackle, but

59:09

his kicking game is amazing, and his passing game is

59:11

amazing. And I just felt

59:13

that Saturday was such a great opportunity, because

59:15

I think if we got past on Saturday

59:17

and got that win against France, I

59:21

do feel that we have got the Voodoo over

59:23

England at the moment. I think

59:26

it would be a tough task for England to

59:28

go up there and win anyway in two weeks' time,

59:31

but I think if

59:33

we'd won on Saturday, I think there would be

59:36

no stopping Scotland in that game in two weeks'

59:38

time. And I think we might

59:40

have got to the Grand Slam decider in

59:43

Ireland, in Dublin, at the end of

59:45

the tournament. But now England

59:48

are chipped too, they're full of

59:50

confidence, they're building confidence, they're

59:53

nowhere near where they want to be from what

59:55

I saw on the weekend, but

59:57

they went back to the kicking game in the

59:59

second half. and they look

1:00:01

more comfortable than in

1:00:03

the first half when they were throwing the ball about a

1:00:05

bit more. And Wales is just as

1:00:08

fun as that. It was amazing against, you know,

1:00:10

no penalties after 42 minutes. So

1:00:13

yeah, England or, England,

1:00:15

Scotland's gonna be good, but we're in a good place

1:00:17

at the moment with the players that we've got. But

1:00:19

just a pity we've got maybe

1:00:21

a triple crown to go for, maybe a championship to

1:00:24

go for. I just hope we

1:00:26

can win something very soon, because, you know, we

1:00:28

can't keep it. You've got to look at England, though, again, a lot

1:00:30

of people have been right in England off right through the World Cup.

1:00:32

They were still in the World Cup, and

1:00:34

they're managing to grind Duke close games in the Six

1:00:36

Nations. They're not playing well, but they're still getting a

1:00:38

win. And that's dangerous. What

1:00:41

we can do with England is having Lawrence

1:00:43

back. I think get Lawrence back

1:00:45

in the centre, massive difference.

1:00:47

I mean, you're a

1:00:49

guy in the midfield, he's a

1:00:52

tidy player, but for me, he

1:00:55

lacks that international

1:00:58

class and he's just young. And

1:01:00

he's Scottish, I think, as well. Do you boys,

1:01:02

when you say about your one, because, you know, Tyndall and

1:01:04

2003 lot, they say they

1:01:07

want England to win a World Cup, but they don't

1:01:09

really, because the cash, the gravy training finishes, you know,

1:01:11

you boys, however many years has gone past, are still

1:01:13

winning now, we're still talking about it. Do you really

1:01:15

want them to win, or just because, you know, a

1:01:17

few more years, just to keep going and then let

1:01:20

them win, yeah? No, we want

1:01:22

them to win. You're like, you're,

1:01:24

you're a good team. I

1:01:26

think it comes at a time when you, you know, we

1:01:29

were lucky to get the chances to play when we

1:01:31

did and who we played with and do things we

1:01:33

did. But yeah, this

1:01:35

group of players, this group of players have worked hard,

1:01:37

they've got very, very close. We

1:01:40

do want to win something. They deserve

1:01:42

to win something, they deserve to, they

1:01:44

deserve to be a game that decides

1:01:46

something. Yeah, we've got to stop to watch.

1:01:48

Yeah, that would be a great day. Where,

1:01:50

you know, we've been there, we've been very

1:01:53

lucky at being grandstanders, we went

1:01:55

to Turkey in 1995, grandstanders

1:01:57

said that it was basically a turnaround. of

1:02:00

what it was in 1990. And

1:02:03

we had a chance in that game,

1:02:05

but again, it's small margins and taking

1:02:07

opportunities when they're there. But we

1:02:09

didn't take opportunity inside of this, so we've lost out

1:02:11

in the opportunity of a grand slam. But this

1:02:14

team can still win the next two games. We can

1:02:16

go to Ireland and win something tangible.

1:02:18

Yeah, that's great. I'm very glad we got the

1:02:20

two of you in, because we have a Six

1:02:22

Nations selector brought to you by Heycar, where we

1:02:24

delve into the past and try to

1:02:26

pick out the greatest players that have played in the Six Nations

1:02:28

since the year 2000, which

1:02:31

very sadly was the two of you out, otherwise you'd

1:02:33

have been shoe-ins for this. Heycar, I

1:02:35

only have the best quality check used vehicles. You

1:02:37

can buy directly online or in person, so they're

1:02:39

trusted retailers. They even have vehicles that you cannot

1:02:42

find or buy anywhere else, exclamation

1:02:44

mark. So to help with today's selections, we're

1:02:46

going to lean on the expertise of the

1:02:48

Scottish legends Craig Chalmers and Gary Armstrong. We

1:02:51

are going to ask you to pick the

1:02:54

best nine and 10 combination to have played

1:02:56

in the Six Nations, like our relationship with Heycar. This

1:02:59

game is all about great partnerships. So

1:03:01

our picks have to be made in units. We

1:03:04

are only allowed one unit per country. And

1:03:06

there is therefore one final twist, I'm afraid,

1:03:08

which is that our team has represent all

1:03:10

six Six Nation sides. There

1:03:13

are six positional units to fill. And last week

1:03:15

we locked in Darcy and O'Driscoll as

1:03:17

our center parent, which means we cannot now pick

1:03:19

Murray and Sexton, who according to

1:03:22

the stats, are the most successful half-back players ever

1:03:24

played across the Six Nations. Four titles include two

1:03:26

Grand Slams in 2018 and 2023. So

1:03:29

the game has potentially got one or two faults in it. But

1:03:33

having said that, no

1:03:36

Murray and Sexton, but we're going to throw out

1:03:38

Dawson Wilkinson, three championships including the 2003 Grand Slam

1:03:41

and 85% win record. Youngson

1:03:44

Ford, who also won three championships including the

1:03:46

2016 Grand Slam and a 75% win record.

1:03:50

Dupont-Intimac, 2022 Grand Slam. And

1:03:54

obviously missing this year means that France

1:03:57

are definitely not the side that they were. Yashvillian

1:03:59

Michelin. back as well, who only started

1:04:01

four games across the 2002 Championship and the 2004 Grand

1:04:05

Slam, but they were used at the business end

1:04:07

of both the tournaments. Dwayne

1:04:09

Peel and Stephen Jones from Wales, who obviously played

1:04:11

together with the Scarlett's as well, and started every

1:04:13

game at the 2005 Grand Slam.

1:04:16

And then if you want to get a

1:04:18

curveball, we've thrown in Alessandro Troncon and Diego

1:04:21

Dominguez. So just to be very clear,

1:04:23

when we sat and talked about it last week... There's

1:04:25

a lot of T's and C's, I hope you're still

1:04:27

with us. A lot of caveats. So last

1:04:29

week we went with the Centre for

1:04:31

Driscoll and Darcie. We thought about, for example, the

1:04:33

English back row hill. Don't leave the witness. I'm

1:04:35

not leading, I'm just explaining. You're desperate to keep

1:04:38

thinking about it. No, no, no. We're just trying

1:04:40

to think about where you'd fit. So we thought

1:04:42

the Italian would make a good front row, but

1:04:44

we're just trying to work out back clear front.

1:04:46

No, what I like is just go blind. Back

1:04:49

the whole thing up for us. Where you'd go

1:04:51

first of all. You'd only have

1:04:53

one pair. So if you choose something outlandish, you

1:04:56

stuff somewhere else. You know, do you know what I mean? When

1:04:58

you look at the Scottish halfbacks as well,

1:05:01

Laidlorn Russell, Price and Russell, Redpath, Townsend. I'm

1:05:03

not sure any of those necessarily will make

1:05:05

it. Yeah, there's a lot of good ones

1:05:07

there. There really is. And I said to

1:05:09

you when I came in, I went, I

1:05:11

said Troncon and Dominguez. They were a real

1:05:13

stronghold of Italian rugby back in

1:05:16

the day. Would you want to be there outside backs

1:05:18

though? Diego didn't do a lot of mid-1? No, no,

1:05:20

no, no. They were strong followers back in those days,

1:05:22

but they were pretty poor outside

1:05:25

them. They had a massive centre called

1:05:27

Stojka, who played for a while. He was huge. Chris

1:05:30

Stojka. But I mean, look at

1:05:32

the most talented, I think, at the point in the time,

1:05:34

but... Who

1:05:39

would you buy a ticket to watch? I'd

1:05:42

buy a ticket to the point in the time, I call it day long.

1:05:44

But if you take them out, then who? Stop

1:05:46

carrying out things. I think

1:05:48

Dawson Wilkinson, for me, probably

1:05:51

most successful. The great win I would

1:05:53

go with Dawson Wilkinson, me, because he

1:05:56

was my tenor new tassel.

1:05:58

I wanted to really... I wrote about

1:06:00

what he said about you actually because this we

1:06:02

didn't cover this up in the first part which

1:06:04

I thought was amazing right this is from Johnny

1:06:06

Wilkinson a man of a few words but he

1:06:09

said inside of it's grub half I have one

1:06:11

of the toughest players in the world we call

1:06:13

Gary Armstrong the junkyard dog what I mean that's

1:06:15

high praise. I think he also said you were

1:06:17

the best nine you ever played with. Yeah he did. Did

1:06:20

you take that comment on well? You take that?

1:06:23

Well it was only 17 minutes late at Newcastle so. He's

1:06:25

having a few nights off the back of you. He's

1:06:27

played with a few off the back but no when

1:06:30

Johnny arrived at Newcastle he couldn't even drive a car.

1:06:32

Right. I had to run him out of everywhere. Really? And

1:06:36

Rob Andrew tutored them. Rob

1:06:38

Andrew was my 10 at Newcastle and we

1:06:40

had Johnny at 12 played 12

1:06:43

and 13. So

1:06:46

he used to tape his head? He used to play with a

1:06:48

headband? What was the

1:06:50

long young Wilkinson line? He

1:06:54

punched away above his weight. Unbelievable. And

1:06:56

he deserves everything he gets out of

1:06:58

rugby because when we had all

1:07:00

finished training he'd still be there practicing. Oh

1:07:03

really? We used to play

1:07:05

in boxing day matches doing in London

1:07:07

and he'd be in a Christmas day

1:07:09

kicking. He had the same routine all the time

1:07:13

and the hours I practiced him and

1:07:15

his brother put in were

1:07:17

just unbelievable. And

1:07:19

as you say he didn't say very much. But

1:07:21

what he does say people listen to. Okay

1:07:24

so which one of those?

1:07:26

Do I get a vote in there as well? No

1:07:29

I'm not even there because you're trying to manipulate the

1:07:31

whole thing so you can get to Hillback Delalier. Well

1:07:33

no I'm just... Well give it, yeah go on you

1:07:35

first go. Deportant and demand. If you're buying a ticket

1:07:37

to watch any one of those three play we've got

1:07:39

to get... I've got to say Deportant is just something

1:07:41

special and there is no special value. And when there's

1:07:43

no way he's partnered in to my... Would you have

1:07:45

done it back in the day if GQ had come

1:07:47

to you and said listen could you put on a

1:07:49

big yellow fluffy dressing gown and pose on a chaise

1:07:51

long? Would you have said... Probably no no. No no

1:07:53

no no no no. That's no must deal. You've

1:07:56

been truck of time. Yeah yeah yeah. You've been a part of my

1:07:58

truck. Yeah yeah yeah. I'm

1:08:00

a cop with a can of super pennants

1:08:02

and an armchair, I've never heard of one.

1:08:05

It's a game for all shapes and sizes and

1:08:07

thoughts. Okay, we're all happy to have a go

1:08:10

to DuPont and Intermac in. Yeah, I did well

1:08:12

with that. Well done the kids. So that locks

1:08:14

in DuPont and Intermac. No going

1:08:16

back now and they joined Darcy and O'Driscoll in

1:08:19

our Haykar Dream Six Nations team. That's quite

1:08:21

a bit like a game already. So you've

1:08:23

all had a go at Roosery, Castignad and...

1:08:26

Loads of them. Billy Bennet's Sal. Yeah,

1:08:28

yeah. Billy Priscilla. Yeah. No,

1:08:31

he's a Sal team. I was a rule. He's a

1:08:33

rule, sorry. Oh, he's even ruled out here. Sorry, I

1:08:35

don't know the rules. Honestly, every time Alex talks about

1:08:37

a game... Every time Alex talks about a game... I

1:08:39

just fade out of it, honestly. So you've got to

1:08:42

explain a game that's that complicated. Yeah, we've taken three

1:08:44

key back teams. Yeah, Lee Burn, Shane Belieber. That's

1:08:46

what I like to say to ladders, ladders, this pool. You're on a state

1:08:48

you're going down, you're a ladders you're going up, that's the end of it.

1:08:52

Selecting a car from Haykar is a much easier

1:08:54

process, certainly, that we've managed in this game so

1:08:56

far. By your next car,

1:08:58

the feel-good way with Haykar, and our team

1:09:00

is coming together, feel free to disagree as

1:09:03

you see fit. I think we haven't

1:09:05

done this. We haven't had too much on

1:09:07

England from you. We obviously debriefed it twicken

1:09:09

them on Saturday. Yeah, was it the prettiest

1:09:12

game in the world? No.

1:09:15

I haven't watched it inside with you. I didn't realise what an ardent

1:09:17

fan you are. Very shouty at the TV. All

1:09:19

those people trying to relay the plates were slightly shocked

1:09:21

as you were shouting, Come on, England! I

1:09:24

thought that's a good performance. I think

1:09:26

it was death by TMO, death by

1:09:28

stoppage. I think it's ruining

1:09:30

the game. Will England be pleased? Not

1:09:33

really. Were Wales pretty

1:09:35

much on the 20th side? Yeah, should we have done

1:09:37

better? I think so, but two

1:09:39

wins from two, pressure's off. Some players set

1:09:41

up and played. I thought the defensive system

1:09:43

looked better at times. There are things to

1:09:45

be definitely improved on, but we'll see more

1:09:47

in a brief sigh of relief. Yeah, but

1:09:50

would you have paid to watch that? No.

1:09:53

No. I just really want this England team. They've become

1:09:55

very good at grinding out wins. Interesting, I

1:09:57

didn't realise this, actually. They've won eight

1:09:59

of them. They've won eight of them.

1:10:02

their last nine, admittedly against anyone in

1:10:04

the top six, but they're winning margins

1:10:06

one, six, three, three and

1:10:08

two points. So they are grinding them out. I'm

1:10:11

just reminded of that story from Will

1:10:13

Greenwood. He said that I think it would have been 2001, 2002. Clive

1:10:18

Woodward said to the team, how many tries

1:10:20

are we going to score tomorrow against Wales? I never

1:10:22

went two, three, four. And often he said 11.

1:10:25

Of course everyone in the room laughed. And he said, well, why not?

1:10:27

Why don't we go out with the admission of

1:10:30

playing to score 11 tries and ended up

1:10:32

scoring nine. And I just sort of

1:10:34

want the team to stop talking about

1:10:36

staying in the fight and grinding out a

1:10:38

result and set their stall out, which is

1:10:40

we're going to go to Murrayfield and win with a bonus point. How

1:10:42

do we do that? Yeah, I find

1:10:44

it interesting that the nine, you know, repeating

1:10:47

the nine point deficit coming back from the

1:10:49

six nations. Look, again, I thought

1:10:51

Wales, you know, with Tommy Refeld, what an incredible

1:10:53

play. Jack Morgan we thought was brilliant. He was

1:10:55

a revelation of the World Cup. Tommy Refeld, you

1:10:57

know, causing no ender problems. I think to come

1:10:59

back with a nine point deficit, which England haven't

1:11:02

done, actually shows a mark of a maturity of

1:11:04

a side that were relatively young. Again, was it pretty?

1:11:06

No. Should we be in that place in the first

1:11:08

place? No, I don't think so.

1:11:10

And I think we're still getting the frustration where we're

1:11:12

not seeing the kind of rope we all want to

1:11:14

go and watch. Small steps forward. Probably fair to say.

1:11:16

I think a lot of England fans would love to

1:11:18

see a big step forward sooner or later. Right.

1:11:21

I think what we're going to do now is

1:11:23

our British Airways high flyers of the week segment.

1:11:25

And for the six nations, we're going to be

1:11:27

doing something a little bit different because instead of

1:11:29

us picking, we're asking you, the fans, to set

1:11:32

the British Airways high flyer of the week

1:11:34

via Instagram. And the shortlist was

1:11:36

made up of the player of the match, Ben Earl.

1:11:38

What a try. Actually very reminiscent of Big Lull in

1:11:40

2000, where he carried half of Wales over with him.

1:11:43

Alex Mitchell, who went well at nine, lots

1:11:45

of variety in attack and defense. And Freddie

1:11:47

Stewart, who is the English version of the

1:11:49

Bond diffuser, Wales just couldn't get a

1:11:51

foothold in the game with the way that he defended

1:11:53

the airspace, which British Airways will love. Which

1:11:57

of that three do you worry about? going

1:12:00

into the Calcutta Cup. Do

1:12:02

any of those sort of make you think, okay?

1:12:04

I thought Ben Elder did so well for his

1:12:06

try. High energy isn't he? Really strong. He had

1:12:08

no right to get there to be fair. I

1:12:10

mean it's a poor defence by the Wales

1:12:14

around the edge there but yeah

1:12:16

he had no right to score that try. I mean even if

1:12:18

he's stretching out the way he did

1:12:20

stretch out, that was a bit of a

1:12:22

gamble as well. But he backed himself. He carried

1:12:24

on with the work. He's a confident boy and

1:12:26

yeah. He plays with his heart

1:12:28

on his sleeve and that's what you

1:12:30

need. You need some people to just take

1:12:32

the grain by the scuff of the neck and

1:12:35

you have to follow them. Yeah I think Ben

1:12:37

Elder was great. He carried that physicality. You know

1:12:39

the competitiveness. Because he was a bit quiet against

1:12:41

Italy. We talked about Ethan Rootes. Whereas

1:12:44

Cunningham South we talked about when he came on. I

1:12:46

thought Ben Elder was brilliant. You could see it in

1:12:48

Ben Elder's eyes. He was so up for it. He's

1:12:52

up for the challenge and it's just

1:12:54

the way he plays. You need

1:12:56

another couple like him. Yeah. And

1:12:59

then. Who's the sixth? Ethan Rootes. Yeah I

1:13:01

like him as well. He's a good player

1:13:03

as well. And Undernaw's played well. In the

1:13:05

second row as well. He's in the second

1:13:07

row in international history. Absolutely rearrange that guy.

1:13:10

Poor bloke from Wales. That would be livid.

1:13:13

It would be livid if some bloke should throw your ball up

1:13:15

there and you're turning and you're like oh my god. Who

1:13:18

do they go for then Alex? So Hask

1:13:20

you'll be delighted to know they've gone for

1:13:22

Ben Earl. Excellent. Sense prevails. Ben

1:13:25

Earl is our High Flyer of the Week and British

1:13:27

Airways connecting people to over 190 destinations across the world.

1:13:31

To feel inspired for your next adventure

1:13:33

head over to ba.com. It has

1:13:35

been a real pleasure to have you both down. Thank

1:13:37

you so much for reminiscing on what

1:13:39

was a very very special era. Not just

1:13:41

for Scottish rugby but I think Hask we'd all

1:13:44

agree just for the game in general as well.

1:13:46

Good times and good days when these two romp

1:13:48

the planes of international rugby. I'm always very excited

1:13:50

when you've got two leashes again. You come in,

1:13:52

tell the stories and it re-invigorates

1:13:54

me always to hear the fun and the

1:13:56

stories. Because I didn't cross over

1:13:59

into the amateur era. But I was with guys who

1:14:01

did so a lot of it what we picked up in the

1:14:03

stories and I you know You lads are real men in a

1:14:05

real era where it's kind of we were a bit more like

1:14:07

robots off a conveyor belt So I love the stories. I love

1:14:09

the vibe. It's good to see the stories still go on So

1:14:12

thanks so much for coming. I think people find it really really

1:14:14

interesting You'll

1:14:16

be there on Like

1:14:21

they watch you on the TV you didn't get

1:14:23

these people talking crap I'll

1:14:31

be there Yeah,

1:14:34

yeah, I think it's yeah, I think it's when we're gonna

1:14:36

win again, so I think we'll get off the good start

1:14:38

Yeah, that's how we hang on in the last 20

1:14:41

minutes. We shall see that's the worrying part Yeah,

1:14:44

your boots just in case Good

1:14:47

luck obviously with the battle as well. I hope you're well

1:14:51

Jen thank you very much indeed. Well on the

1:14:53

house. Nice to see you as always We hope

1:14:55

you've enjoyed this series which has been the first

1:14:57

of rugby's greatest unions. There's so much more to

1:14:59

come We'd love your suggestions below the

1:15:01

line as well Do let us know who

1:15:03

you'd like us to interview and we'll get to as many

1:15:06

as we can as we go We've been to

1:15:08

good the band the rugby with our very good friends at

1:15:10

continental tires stats and facts provided by oval

1:15:12

insights We're a folding pocket production on

1:15:14

this episode was produced by Tom Edwards. We'll see you again soon. But

1:15:17

for all of us You've

1:15:25

been listening to the good yay the bad

1:15:29

And the rugby with Alex

1:15:31

Payne James Haskell and Mike

1:15:33

Tyndall. Thanks for listening That's

1:15:46

why I like snakes and ladders lads is fun and simple you're on

1:15:48

a snake you go down You're a lad you go and that's the

1:15:50

end of it if you have to explain behalf and I you've lost

1:15:52

me For the past 30 years

1:15:54

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