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transportation supplier. In

0:32

English rugby history, I don't think anyone stands

0:34

above the two of you as a as

0:36

a duo. There's certain players who I think

0:38

have an awareness of space, just have a

0:40

radar that, right, and he had it. Will

0:42

wasn't in my life off the rugby field,

0:44

but there is a massive, huge

0:46

amount of respect for what Will could do on the

0:48

field and what we did together. You're asked to be

0:51

captain, you go, great. If I look back, you know,

0:53

you're 22 and twice it would have been nice to

0:55

have three or four years just playing

0:57

and actually being able to work. You could have said

0:59

no. We

1:02

live life to create memories, hopefully, if you've

1:05

been fortunate, you've been lucky, and

1:07

to look back on them and they never

1:09

get tiring. Very special. Oh

1:11

yeah, well, they were inspirational to me. They

1:14

say, actually, I'm going to fuck off. Something's

1:17

never changed. Into

1:31

the final moments, Alex Payne trying to

1:33

keep this side going forward. Haskell takes

1:35

it on now. It's just relentless chat

1:38

largely about himself. And there's Tyndall to

1:40

add the finishing touch of glamour and

1:42

World Cup winning stories and a slightly

1:44

sideways nose. That is how you podcast

1:47

a dominant display by the good, the

1:49

bad and the rugby. Hello,

1:55

everybody. A very warm welcome to the latest episode

1:57

of Rugby's Greatest Unions. This is the good to

1:59

bad in the rugby in partnership with our very

2:01

good friends at Continental Tires and

2:03

rugby's greatest unions is all about Reuniting the

2:06

best playing partnerships that our game has ever

2:08

seen and I cannot think of a duo

2:11

That stands above the two we have on today in English

2:14

rugby history Torvalent

2:16

do I go Torvalent D? I'm part of Tyndall

2:18

Greenwood but you know, I think they were a successful one.

2:20

That wasn't very long didn't last very long. No, you were

2:22

successful but it just didn't last very long. And

2:25

away we go. Sorry, I'm not the nation. Jerry

2:30

Guskat and Will Carling. Don't talk to Zara

2:32

about that, alright? Welcome,

2:35

Will Carling and Jerry Guskat. How are

2:38

you first of all? Very

2:40

good. Are you? Well for now. Good. That's what

2:42

he always said. Very good

2:45

to anybody who would listen actually. Yeah.

2:47

No, you look good. I have to

2:49

say don't. You do. Don't even. Oh,

2:53

go on. Let him go on. We keep on catching up, you

2:55

know, every sort of decade. I'm

2:59

still amazed that your hair is, I mean I

3:02

tried, I did for men. I'm

3:04

not gonna tug it. It definitely is. I did. I did

3:06

until my ex-wife went you're dyeing your hair, aren't you? I

3:09

couldn't. I couldn't dye it after that. But

3:12

you genuinely, that is natural. That

3:14

is natural. You gotta, welcome

3:16

to the airport. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry,

3:18

that's a lovely thought. It's part of

3:20

the guy who's no success now, did

3:22

some TV and then when he got

3:24

shot and away he hit the back

3:26

ground. Yeah. No, it is.

3:28

I've never, there is some in

3:30

there. I know if I grow this

3:32

it's, it's grey. It's grey. But

3:36

yeah, it's, I

3:38

know where you're looking and we're not even going there. Can

3:41

I just say, relative to

3:43

the one on the end, both of you are doing extremely

3:45

well, which I think probably says more about the modern game

3:47

than what it was like back in the amateur era. At

3:50

least his nose is straight. Eventually, you did a great job

3:52

of bedding it by the way. Well

3:54

most of my inside senses have got,

3:56

you know, knees reshaping, remodeling. Look at

3:59

Will. Contact was very

4:01

overrated. Tins

4:03

used to love that sort of stuff. But, you know, I

4:07

think in later years he's worked out. He shouldn't

4:09

have done. That's what

4:11

he got forwards for. I know, but it

4:13

got me where I'm at. It got me

4:15

there. It is very, very nice to have

4:17

the two of you together. I'm being serious

4:19

when I think in English rugby history, I don't think

4:21

anyone stands above the two of you as a duo.

4:25

We've got trios obviously in the game, hillbak,

4:27

dillow, etc. But Guskan Carling, actually was it

4:29

Guskan Carling or Carling or Guskert? 12,

4:31

13. Yeah. Guskert.

4:34

Carling. He was... Are you

4:36

happy with that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, because he was obviously meant to

4:38

play 13, but he... So

4:40

why did you swap numbers? Do

4:43

you want to say or do you want me

4:45

to... You can say. He was superstitious. Were you?

4:48

I don't want to. They didn't have a 13 at Bath. At

4:51

Bath we never wore 13. And I'm just trying to work

4:53

out if it's actually when we played at Twickenham.

4:57

Whether I was labelled as 13

4:59

and I said, look, there's no way I'm going out onto

5:01

the pitch and that I'm wearing 12. Well,

5:04

maybe they came to... The sad thing about this podcast

5:06

is it's so long ago we were both saying, I

5:08

can't remember when. What was that? So

5:10

I do remember something you said, I can't wear

5:13

13. And I'm like,

5:15

okay, I'll wear it. Because

5:17

I think the first few games before Geraldine

5:20

came along, I wore 12. And

5:24

then you just wouldn't... I

5:26

just decided it was my shirt. Right. And

5:29

regardless. Were you captain by this point? Yeah. Yeah,

5:32

but that, as you can tell, didn't mean anything. The

5:34

idea is this goes on that actually...

5:36

How in the outside world do they

5:39

think that that actually meant anything? Quickly

5:41

realise team dynamics wise that a grumpy

5:43

Jerry is a fucking nightmare. It's easiest to

5:46

be in a... Grumpy Jerry? Is

5:48

that fair? I do know, I

5:50

never noticed myself. I'm

5:52

not referred to as grumpy

5:54

Jerry too much. Face

5:57

to face. Right,

6:00

maybe that's the mumble behind the scenes

6:02

or was the mumble behind the scenes

6:05

and that would be feral on there I've

6:08

never really taken a good hard long

6:10

look at myself time. It's I do

6:13

remember I Remember one

6:16

training session at Lambridge. Oh, yeah, I would

6:18

be grumpy at training I say sometimes we'd

6:20

be training with mixed ability Skill

6:23

levels of rugby, but we're supposed

6:25

to be all international yet. We're passing in front.

6:27

We're passing behind I'm a passing low passing high

6:30

that just wasn't acceptable. I remember Chloe Wood saying to us

6:32

one time When he was

6:34

coaching at Bath, could you put sacks

6:37

over your head? Because

6:39

it's not spontaneous enough. I want you to react

6:41

to a Defensive alignment

6:43

and I said Chloe, why can't we either just

6:45

close our eyes or turn the

6:47

other way? No, you might cheat you might cheat

6:49

and I want you and then it was asking sex which you could

6:51

look through anyway But this is all in front

6:53

of the a form at Lambridge And I thought there's no

6:55

way I'm putting a sack over my head in

6:58

bath. Everybody can see us do it And it

7:00

wasn't normal anyway, so yeah, we decided against that

7:02

Clive was persuaded not to do that The

7:05

way I do remember without jumping

7:08

head remember I

7:10

wouldn't say but he

7:12

could be Challenging but

7:14

yeah, he was a nonconformist and

7:16

Les Cuzworth became

7:18

coach of England and the first training session

7:21

I just remember was at Twickenham and We

7:24

were practicing sort of line out off anyway and

7:26

Les went right what I wanted to do Rob

7:28

Rob Miss

7:30

well out which is always useful You

7:35

take it in and then we what we'll do is we'll go

7:38

quickly off this at which point it was a Sorry

7:42

And that's when so miss you miss you

7:44

out. Well Jerry you take it in and then what

7:46

he goes. Whoa, whoa I

7:52

don't take it in and Less

7:55

when well you could be just no no no

7:57

he goes less How many caps you?

8:00

get. And Les

8:02

sort of went, 12th. And

8:04

I'm watching this thinking this is Les's first session

8:07

I'm going don't fall for this Les, don't fall.

8:09

And he goes, 45. I don't

8:11

take it in. So I think

8:16

you need to rethink Les. And

8:18

I'm like thinking Les you're going to say to

8:20

him, you will take it. And he goes, okay,

8:23

right, okay, so we'll try something else. And I'm

8:25

like, oh my god. And he's just

8:27

chuckling away to himself. That was a bit of

8:29

banter back of that. Sounds really bad now. But

8:31

it would, it would, it was,

8:33

it was challenging. But it

8:36

also, it's kind of like, you

8:38

know, if you're going to stick me here,

8:41

I'm not Mike Tyndall. I'm not going to

8:43

crash it up and go,

8:45

oh, that should be a job for Will or a winger. I

8:47

mean, that's not my forte. Bit

8:49

of space, one on one, two on one, let me

8:51

go. So it was just a

8:53

matter of explaining to because either

8:56

that's not me, that I'm not built for that.

8:59

And the gentle sense of nature

9:01

that he did it. What's

9:03

quite apparent is it feels like we're very quickly

9:05

back into the playground, which is exactly as

9:07

it should be between the two of you having been

9:10

through one of the greatest partnerships in English,

9:12

but we'll stop. There's been a

9:14

lot that's for both of you along that journey. When you

9:16

see each other, how often do you see each other now?

9:18

Did you catch up? And is

9:20

that in passing? No,

9:22

but I don't know about it's just like, sort

9:25

of just move on. We were

9:28

in France for

9:30

the semifinal World Cup. I

9:33

was a good friend. Rob, Rob Andrews.

9:35

And Dean. Yeah. Do you remember the

9:38

first ever meeting? Because

9:41

obviously, your backgrounds are very

9:43

different. So when was the

9:45

first meeting together? Did you play English school

9:47

boards and stuff? You wouldn't have played that,

9:50

would you? No, no. Straight

9:52

through to the cross paths. I

9:54

crossed paths at school and

9:57

loads of the players, Johnny and all that through age

9:59

group stuff. But you guys wouldn't have had

10:01

that and there's obviously not as many games back in

10:03

the day So we're the captain's got a better memory

10:05

than me you have because I'm not sure yeah But

10:08

we said and also there was the issue that

10:10

he did actually play Club rugby I didn't play

10:12

much rugby so didn't really come across in there

10:14

either All right, I think the first time that

10:17

I saw it was in Monaco

10:19

playing places Wow,

10:22

so it was the summer of 88 played

10:25

in the sevens and and

10:27

saw Jerry playing for The

10:29

one that's all wonder is yeah, yes, and you're like

10:31

and I do remember just like Okay,

10:34

he can he can shift and

10:37

it was just sort of like yeah, it was

10:40

That and that's my that's my first

10:42

memory mine mine was I'm

10:45

not sure if I dreamt this Remember

10:50

I'm not I think you might have been captain and

10:52

it would have been around that or you you made

10:54

captain in 89 or 88 88

10:57

when I got made captain at the end of 88 But

11:00

I do remember going through this whole week I was lucky as

11:02

Andy Robinson was there Gareth Shill got a few of my club

11:05

mates I do remember just coming

11:07

up to you. We didn't really know each other like

11:09

that. Thanks for looking after my shirt But

11:14

maybe I dreamt that But

11:16

I think this will was made captain. I did

11:18

think There's only

11:20

one place to go There's only one place

11:22

up for grabs and you know I can't remember those

11:24

Kevin Sims used to play with how

11:26

does he play with? Someone

11:29

was it no that was it. It's weird because

11:31

I sat on selection and

11:34

so this kid So Hallis was was a was

11:36

a mate from my only mate On

11:39

the team and then you it isn't weird you

11:41

sit on selection and it was just like it

11:44

was one of those Without getting heavy one

11:46

of those major moments where we're

11:49

sitting talking about Jerry

11:51

Gusco and you've got a guy who's your mate And

11:54

I remember cookie saying to me so what do you think will

11:57

and it's like and it is one of those times where you just

11:59

think this is

12:01

not about mates or anything else and I just

12:03

said to him he's yeah

12:05

you got picking yeah

12:08

I because will it be so generous and getting injured and

12:10

so he gave me my first single and cut in Romania

12:13

and you scored a hat you got a

12:15

hat trick on on your debut yeah anyway

12:18

managed to get will was still injured so

12:20

I went on a lion's tour and

12:23

then we got back into that well

12:25

all right yeah but yeah

12:28

that's another that's a year ahead almost

12:31

eight would I'm going into 89 yeah yeah

12:33

so and that was that was him so

12:35

Hallows must have been like just

12:38

get back and then remember

12:40

as well so it not

12:43

would have been through any of your career that the captain

12:45

actually sat yeah on selection

12:47

and that was another thing so not only

12:49

the captain you knew will was on so

12:51

he's not gonna drop himself yeah I tried

12:53

to which

12:59

is in fact that finished Jack Jack

13:01

I never sat on selection with Jack once he

13:03

came in but with cookie yeah I

13:05

mean that was just it was just a mark you know

13:07

sitting there 20 on

13:10

selection was just bizarre hey it's so weird that

13:12

they still doing cricket yeah yeah you were part

13:14

of I mean

13:18

too very long illustrious Chris but particularly the glory is

13:20

the sort of 90 early 90s

13:22

is so that there were so many big

13:24

characters in that team I mean really

13:26

big personalities

13:30

particularly both of your relationships with with the nulled

13:32

ones up front because you I mean you some

13:34

of your gracious mates played up front for England

13:36

yeah all of these guys could drink right so

13:39

I had to know the jenot on it but

13:41

you know that is right yeah but he says

13:43

it as though he can we both

13:52

had different relationships before I mean tell

13:54

the story about the kickoff and big

13:56

Wade it's a sad but

13:58

true story so say He

14:02

was very lucky in the sense he

14:04

could have fun with them. I

14:06

was doing the sort of the chemistry

14:08

bit and you couldn't. You

14:11

couldn't do the sort of stuff

14:14

because you were meant to be trying

14:16

to get us to change how we behave. But

14:18

I do remember, which is a sad but

14:20

true story about one of the only times

14:22

I ever had an idea, we were playing

14:24

Scotland and I was

14:27

saying we had this team meeting and

14:29

I said afterwards and I'd prepared with a flip

14:31

chart because we were high tech, done some pictures.

14:33

And I thought this is going to go well.

14:37

This is where the flip chart started. And

14:40

so I said the back sort of wandered off and I said

14:42

guys, the forwards just want to talk you through something, can you

14:44

come to the front and I'll talk you through it.

14:47

And I should have read the room

14:49

when none of them moved that you thought this isn't

14:51

going to go too well. So little

14:53

posh boy was going right, you know, come Scotland

14:55

I'd like us to kick off right. I said

14:57

left, went through my pictures. I

14:59

said so everyone okay with that?

15:02

Back of the room? Nope.

15:05

PC Wade Dooley, you know, 6'8", whatever he was and

15:08

I looked at him and I went, why

15:10

Wade, what's the problem? He goes, we

15:12

kick off, off. And

15:15

I'm like, look, look, yeah I

15:18

know but I want to surprise them. I want us to kick off

15:20

right. And I went through the reasons again. I said, so, we

15:22

okay with that? He went, no.

15:26

And I'm like, why? As I said,

15:28

Will, we kick

15:30

off left. And

15:32

I'm going, for Christ's sake, he goes, little

15:35

question, Will, ever want to restart yourself?

15:38

I'm like, no, which is why we

15:40

will kick off. And

15:43

I remember literally sort of throwing the pen down and

15:45

storming out and the great line from Dean Richards, hey,

15:47

Will, why don't we run out backwards as well? That

15:49

will really surprise them. And the forwards

15:51

were just in his steadies. But Cookie had

15:54

sat in and it was quite funny so

15:56

he sort of took me aside and sort of said, you

15:59

try and get them to... change something just like not

16:01

a chance. Not a chance. The logic is

16:04

though, think of the logic behind it, most of them

16:06

are right handed, you kick off rather than right to

16:08

left, you kick off left to right. They can go

16:10

like that, that's the dominant side. No, we

16:12

always do it. Did he get

16:14

quite a hard time as captain? Because you've been

16:16

very self-deprecating over the years about it. I mean

16:18

we've got, fucking shit, really? All right, Kevin. So

16:21

you've come up with some good questions. But

16:23

did you see as a player alongside him,

16:25

a captain who had quite a job on

16:28

his hands I was new coming in,

16:30

so I came in in 1989 when Will was

16:32

injured. 1990

16:35

we went through the, I mean, 80s

16:38

in England weren't great. The

16:40

success was low, not winning.

16:43

And Jeff came in, started changing it, Will

16:45

did. But the captain was seen

16:47

as part of the management, whether

16:50

they liked it or not. And so, you know, had a

16:52

room on their own, we all shared, it was a good

16:54

crack. Captain came in the room. It

16:56

was like that. It was a little bit like that.

16:58

You couldn't really be part of the, Will,

17:01

you couldn't really be part of it. It

17:04

was really difficult. But also because, right. We didn't want

17:06

him in it either. No, it's a good fact. Number

17:08

one, right, but there was, you

17:11

know, as Jerry said, I think someone, I'd read somewhere, in

17:13

the 80s we had about a 20% win. Right,

17:17

yeah. At the end of Cookies, I think it

17:19

was up in the 80s, right? Which is a hell of a turnaround

17:21

for Jeff. So what

17:25

we're trying to do, what I'm trying to do

17:27

is, we had to change certain bits. And

17:29

as you say, we had some unbelievable counts and

17:31

everything else, but if

17:34

we wanted to win, we did have

17:37

to change quite a

17:39

lot of bits. So, and part of that was,

17:41

you know, was down

17:43

to sort of captaincy coaches and all that

17:45

lot. So you couldn't go and be Jack

17:48

the Lad. And then go, and by

17:50

the way, I want these sort of

17:52

standards and I want this. I think a

17:55

lot of it as well was picking the right team.

17:57

And the players coming out at the right time, because

17:59

you. I know you can try to

18:01

set a culture. I think that's quite challenging to be

18:03

in my view I think Stuart Lancaster tried that with

18:05

England. It didn't quite have long enough The

18:08

carrot that the players set the set the

18:10

tone is I think it's really difficult

18:12

as Head coach kind of do

18:15

that pick the team pick the best thing that all

18:17

the players are really comfortable with I didn't Ever play

18:19

once with will thinking you shouldn't be in the team

18:22

You have plenty good. I mean will got a lot

18:24

of stick for various things Deserve most

18:26

of it, but as an

18:28

inside sensor I think you go a long

18:30

way to see a better one

18:33

or you know He's right up there with the

18:36

who else would be will Greenwood

18:38

winning winning a World Cup and having

18:41

a successful well semi-successful partnership with

18:43

tins there But we you know

18:45

we did we did quite a lot And we won

18:47

we won a lot of games and managed to get

18:50

a few trophies along the way Do

18:52

you remember that the early games you played together? Did

18:55

it click immediately I mean it became one of

18:57

the great partnerships, but did it did it take

18:59

off from the start? I was always sorry just

19:01

to add on that because because now would be

19:03

seen as you know the amount

19:05

of time that you have together and The

19:08

way you could actually formulate plans for

19:10

each individual game. You didn't really have

19:12

that Did you used to

19:15

meet on a Wednesday? So

19:17

you got literally three two and a

19:19

half days to try and pull everything together Whereas

19:22

you think about now how long they spend on how

19:24

they like in phase play what they do off strike

19:26

moves everything like that It's you just don't have a

19:28

third say we had a hangover as well after

19:31

training With

19:37

you having to keep hold of a

19:39

microcosm yeah, yes, no, but I clicking

19:42

with But there's two

19:44

things that I think two tries for me that Encapsulate

19:47

him was there was one against Ireland I think

19:49

was 90 where Rob threw the ball at my

19:51

feet which was just a you know That is

19:54

sort of so I'm stumbling around trying not to

19:56

fall over and and then just as I straighten

19:58

up passing the ball And he's going on

20:00

the weights of knots and you're just like, yep. And

20:04

there was an anticipation, I think,

20:06

I could read inside. The

20:08

two times again that you got the ball. Will

20:13

just had the face to put it

20:15

there sometimes. But and it

20:17

is that understanding and sometimes it's just

20:20

inbuilt. Yeah. No, Will's not, you could

20:22

quite easily not pass that ball on,

20:24

but you can hear a shite going,

20:26

bum face on your shoulder.

20:28

I think one of the things he had

20:30

more than, and I'm sure Tins, there's certain

20:32

players who I think have an awareness of

20:34

space, just have a radar that, right.

20:37

And he had it. Yeah. And you're sort of like,

20:39

so he just knew, you just,

20:41

all you had to do literally was just look a

20:43

little bit and see what line he was on and

20:45

put the ball there because he was picking his line

20:48

because he knew where they were moving. And that's, so

20:50

for me, that's all I had to do. Yeah. Was

20:52

basically just work out what line you hit. What was

20:54

the second try? The second time was Scotland

20:56

in 90, which was the same. Oh, yeah.

20:59

Yeah. Because you got the wind of the hair in that

21:01

as well. You took the handbrake off. It

21:03

was your outside break, wasn't it? That said, well, not, Yeah,

21:05

but I had to slow down. Yeah. I had to put

21:07

a few brakes on. But

21:10

it was just like, you just knew he was,

21:12

you just knew, right. So that was the fact

21:14

that Scottie Hastings got way too worked up and

21:16

was coming from, and you just, so it was

21:18

just easy. But like, those are the things that

21:21

was the sort of space that actually, that's

21:24

what he could do. And I, you

21:27

know, Will had lots of, but no one

21:29

else has done that. Yeah. Or

21:31

could do that. Was it an appreciation as

21:33

well? Because if you go through, you

21:35

probably, half of the perfect

21:38

model of a centre, then you pop back

21:40

again, and it's perfect partnership, something, because like,

21:42

Will had loads of flaws.

21:44

He looked like he should never, ever play rugby, because

21:46

you just get broken. But

21:48

he had, again, like Jerry, I

21:51

think his skill set was turning up at the

21:53

right place at the right time to find that

21:55

right gap. And if that wasn't there, it was

21:57

like, 10 step forward. I think Will wanted it.

22:00

score tries as well. He was hungry to

22:02

score so he would anticipate where he needed

22:04

to be and he was clever and smart

22:06

enough to know you know I

22:08

can tour, I can actually if I think about

22:10

my height and my weight I can reach and

22:12

do everything. He was a genuinely

22:14

intelligent rugby player, he knew how to play his

22:16

height and weight but he was

22:18

first and foremost he loved scoring tries so

22:21

that's he was to the line. I think he

22:23

bribed a lot of people the passing the

22:26

law and Wales quarterfinals, Rob

22:28

O'Shea just popped in the

22:30

sticks, Johnny would have

22:32

hit the kick, he put it outside

22:34

to Will, Will's Cawl and gets it

22:36

all that. What were you both

22:38

like pre-game? Did you

22:41

get very nervous? No

22:43

I don't think he did, he didn't. The

22:46

game Will had his own separate cubicle in

22:48

Twickenham underneath the West End. He needed a

22:50

hair dryer, I needed all that stuff. Did

22:54

you try your best to look good? No I think

22:56

you were pretty relaxed. I was very relaxed, you come

23:04

in someone up their headphones in. I was

23:07

right, I was excited right from the Peterson

23:09

Hotel. Some people be you know like

23:11

you got that game face so I'm thinking why

23:14

do you got a face like that? You're there

23:16

to enjoy it so I'd be looking along

23:18

the A3O whatever it is into Twickenham once we

23:20

got to the West Carpark. There was a lot

23:22

more space, a lot more going on there. He

23:24

looked for friends thinking what

23:26

could do with a glass of champagne now as well with them

23:28

and have a sandwich. You're looking at the

23:31

ones trying to break in, he's looking at the

23:33

pro sandwich. I just loved it all, I absolutely

23:35

embraced it all and then I get

23:40

in the change room and you'd literally wait, you'd have

23:42

some guys that get changed really quickly, start warming

23:44

up, start stretching. That was when before we

23:47

used to go out onto

23:49

the pitch and warm up and go through your drills.

23:52

Dino wouldn't get changed until about 10 minutes

23:54

to Kick

23:56

Off. I Mean literally. He's sat there chilling his beans.

24:00

There really a data would sit there and

24:02

say to you know it's a gimme shot. Ten

24:04

minutes to go and you just sit with

24:06

his legs crossed. An. Attorney ever

24:08

did one has used to be and

24:10

it isn't You'd go dino ten minutes

24:12

ago on them. But.

24:14

The paper Down. But. What do you what?

24:16

did you have a routine I I I

24:18

didn't have much about it in the same

24:20

place their think we are not gonna had

24:22

not not really know and I wasn't must

24:24

have the i'm not superstitious. To

24:27

just think about what you're going to say. You. Could

24:29

tell know. I

24:32

was trying to think through our going to try

24:34

and play what is a new Done this or

24:36

week. If he doesn't start well what you say

24:38

it's a give him to do all that sourced

24:40

have a in your head. So because a do

24:42

things. Where. Are getting heavy badly.

24:44

As a huge part of captaincy is,

24:46

just being able to talk is almost like

24:49

body language or tone of voice. When

24:51

it all starts going wrong, he's just trying

24:53

to appear com so if you cut

24:55

the, say a few. Relevant. And

24:57

that say get guys focused on bit so

24:59

yes you have to have that in your

25:01

head whereas in not be funny jerry's he

25:04

thinking about in playing and we just want

25:06

to get i want to get i that

25:08

we know if cancer no different than I

25:10

suspect they do today as a different tins

25:12

played. If. We kicking off. We know

25:14

exactly what do we know where it's gonna

25:16

go? You know what we expect? No, did

25:18

I got left? Click it as I write

25:20

the last week kick off left. Will. On

25:23

it's we were receiving, we knew we knew what we're going to

25:25

do. so I just. Saw. A guy that

25:27

wasn't a lot. I

25:29

don't sing and again here

25:31

is also a subliminal says

25:34

subconscious. He not in

25:36

the nicest way you know. always listening some place to

25:38

another you can be in a change your money on

25:40

you. There's a killer place when I was in about

25:42

changing that wanted me to say something summer. So.

25:45

unit. He he. Go and say if

25:47

you were some to set. That's how they got used

25:49

to when they came into this into the squad. Yeah,

25:53

when Tim Kaine about his at Sarnia when. My

25:57

the Ss but with England

25:59

or. We all knew We all

26:01

knew arose you might. You. Might

26:03

remember that that was maybe a couple of

26:05

plays that you might have had to I

26:07

don't know. maybe new guys coming in at

26:09

and a little bit more time I think

26:11

do it in the days before at I

26:13

think most most plays a pretty the off

26:15

in a changing of don't have been there

26:17

sort of does not a lot of information

26:19

taken on board anymore by that stage as

26:21

it's either you try and talk to them

26:23

if anything in that morning or certainly the

26:25

few days before but changing them. You'd.

26:28

Like to think that. A. Thing is if

26:30

you know something that might be a little bit

26:32

different because the case is said they have the

26:34

last words in a hotel that a sign of

26:36

the captain as caught and it's somebody might just

26:38

be a little bit of which the captain's gonna

26:40

notice or one of the seen him play so

26:42

side of it forward as a different mentality back

26:44

in those days they were really about detail. it

26:46

is about. That. Will go towards headlines

26:48

Monday was a man's it was a man

26:50

test them which you just have kids has

26:53

a probably them alone looks it is very

26:55

easy to use a you just want to

26:57

love every bit of it did. Did you

26:59

love it. Did you do

27:01

noted other at did love it yea at the

27:03

very different way percent of it. Ah,

27:07

You just didn't quite have the freedom that they

27:09

are you know so I wouldn't change in a

27:11

crush. your your your ass to be kept. you

27:13

go great but you know you thinking. If.

27:16

I look back in a you twenty two and Ill been.

27:18

A I wouldn't change it, but across it would

27:21

be nice to have three or four years just

27:23

playing. I actually. Began. as he

27:25

had y ha ha ha ha that us

27:27

out of the sake of about I have

27:29

to. Consider

27:32

that. Saying. No Yeah.

27:35

No no no no you so so you've

27:37

so like you're on a cool and he

27:39

goes wouldn't be go. Yes,

27:41

It's only when you put the find on

27:43

ago and now with and ah, So.

27:47

Now. In a you are wouldn't have changed

27:50

it as of course a wouldn't but you

27:52

think it's it's it's just men that's. A

27:55

slightly different if we the even if you

27:57

think about like the you captains a captain

27:59

exists. That went

28:02

well. That

28:04

was a shame. Plus,

28:08

I'll go with the on-game and then play it. It

28:12

wasn't the fact that Jody was injured, Ludovsk

28:14

is injured, Phil Vickery was injured. No one

28:16

cares. When

28:20

you think... I

28:24

mean, you're never off. We're

28:28

not camped in. We

28:32

can get up in the morning, chill our beans, eat what

28:34

we want, have a bit of a crack. Well, it's like observing or

28:36

any camped in, and you get to the changer and how they feel.

28:40

Play the game is probably the only time you can actually focus on

28:42

your job, what you're going to do as part of the team. And

28:45

then, if we're winning, don't forget, after

28:48

every Five Nations game, we had a function to go

28:50

to which you had to get up and speak. You're

28:52

on the top table, not with the lads,

28:54

I think. We're

28:57

not with all the guys that really liked you.

29:00

We've become an old thingy-majig. We'll

29:04

just have everything. I

29:08

remember sitting on that table, however... No,

29:12

in fact, not watching, because the tables were just empty. And

29:16

I'm like, this is great, isn't it? And

29:21

I remember one of the presidents said to me, I used

29:23

to have lunch with him at the East India Club. He

29:25

said, I know what I want you to concentrate on this

29:28

year. He said, your speech is right. So I laughed, because

29:30

I thought that's quite funny. And

29:32

he was being serious. He said, you don't put anywhere

29:34

near enough. I said,

29:36

the players don't want to hear me anymore. And he went, no, no,

29:38

it's about the guests at the rugby football union. And

29:41

that sort of was like, they're all in the

29:43

bar, been in the bar for hours, and you're

29:45

sitting there waiting to make a speech. And,

29:48

okay, it's a small thing to have to do. But sometimes you're like,

29:50

God, I would love to just... Anyway,

29:53

different times. Did

29:56

you ever... I was covered

29:58

in the right word. part of his

30:00

role you ever thought I've answered a bit of

30:03

that or were you always very very happy because

30:05

it but some of the personal stuff I wanted

30:07

right um the

30:09

the game uh will

30:11

uh no I literally you know it was

30:14

at the time you are so in it

30:16

you don't I didn't anyway

30:18

I didn't think about that's probably why I

30:20

couldn't be captain yeah I wasn't thinking about

30:22

everybody else I was thinking about the game

30:24

the match what I was going to

30:26

do with when I got the ball I just wanted the ball yeah

30:29

um I felt actually yeah I

30:31

think emotionally Will

30:33

was captain of England Will I

30:35

felt was had his place

30:38

in in the team there's no I didn't

30:40

think you were ever not going to be selected yeah

30:42

because he was always going to select himself no

30:45

in the but in the in the best way um but

30:48

that that was the only if there was a tad

30:50

of jealousy it would be that he wasn't fighting he

30:53

was without doubt he

30:55

was he's played well he didn't put

30:57

himself out on the edge with harla quinns

31:00

to be given and that was whether you're injured

31:02

or wanted to tell him off or just did

31:04

it right became the consummate professional before most of

31:06

us did yeah um but so that was the

31:09

only tad thing I had was like Will was

31:12

elton braces in that England team yeah and where

31:14

we I was fighting for one place that's how

31:16

it felt the reality is something different 91 grand

31:19

slam woke

31:21

up 92 grand slam 95 and lots

31:23

in between as well but when do

31:25

you two think you played your best

31:28

rugby it could be part

31:30

of the part of the that

31:32

that whole five years just the whole lesson yeah

31:34

there wasn't we used to love

31:36

I used to love French games there was a certain

31:38

atmosphere when we played the French that you were just

31:40

so pumped up and as a three-quarter it

31:43

was the most testing game we ever played because they

31:45

came from anywhere and everywhere it was like they were

31:47

dropping out the sky and suddenly there'd be seven in

31:49

front of you you go where where did they come

31:51

from and yet that's when you had to realize so

31:53

much you know I was always pushing

31:55

guys to the outside I knew Will was always going to

31:57

be inside me and I just knew if we had a

32:00

and a chance and opportunity, we bing, bing, bing, and

32:02

off we go. But that period, there was

32:06

no arrogance. We got put in our boxes

32:09

in 1990. But nobody, everyone goes, oh, you were

32:14

overwhelming favourites. I

32:17

played in 1989 with most of that. I played, I

32:19

knew more of the Scottish team than I knew of the English team.

32:21

And there were more, probably more lions on that Scottish

32:24

squad than there were in the English squad.

32:26

But we were overwhelming favourites. But

32:28

that whole, from that game, we just went, hey,

32:30

it happened in a game. And

32:34

it never did. Apart from the World

32:36

Cup final. But

32:40

that was a magic period. It was a

32:42

magic, magic period of rugby that we

32:44

were all in sync. You played in a good

32:47

team. That English team, you

32:49

played a very good team. And

32:51

you were just on it. You just said, you don't really

32:53

need to say too much. You just look at each other

32:55

and you're on it. Yeah,

32:58

I think maybe 90 was some of

33:00

the best rugby. And then we got

33:02

that wrong. But I think 92,

33:06

there was a lot. It's

33:09

weird. You just knew, I knew how he

33:11

played. And in a sense, I

33:15

think that's the biggest advantage, whether people

33:17

agreed with the midfield. But it sort

33:19

of stuck. So we just

33:22

understood how we played, which is probably

33:24

exactly what you, Johnny, will. And

33:26

that gives you just

33:29

a second or half. And that at that

33:31

level is crucial. And I think consistency,

33:35

consistency is massive. We just

33:38

knowing what, like, if

33:40

you're in a trio of like, Rob, you, you

33:42

too, you just know what people

33:44

need in a certain situation, because you've been there and

33:46

you've got the experience to be able to recall

33:49

it. I've seen this situation before I know what

33:51

Rob wants, or I know what Jerry needs here.

33:54

And that's why having

33:56

that consistency and selection and

33:58

partnerships is key. But

34:00

you have to play well to keep

34:02

it going. What they're talking about in today's rugby is

34:04

the centre partnerships over the years have been fractured,

34:07

disjointed, fly house played. If an inside

34:09

centre and outside centre come together like

34:12

they have over the years and play

34:14

well, you pick yourself and there

34:16

the partnership or the trio is formed. You

34:19

can't just make it, it's made by the players.

34:22

But also, and this is like without blowing smoke up

34:24

his arse, you think, go on, go on. When I

34:26

think about what Gerry kept, you're thinking

34:33

Rob, me, the web,

34:36

they're quite conventional, we were quite

34:38

conventional. And then he, I would

34:40

say, was not conventional. He

34:43

had attitude, he

34:45

was different. And I just

34:47

think it's weird, you look back and

34:50

you get way better when you look back. We were far

34:52

from perfect. And it's like when I was involved in England,

34:54

everyone looks at teams and go, you know, people didn't get

34:56

on, of course they didn't get on, you know, they weren't

34:58

best mates. But there was a, I'd like

35:00

to think there was a chemistry that just worked

35:02

because he provided an edge.

35:05

You know, Rob and I are pretty,

35:07

you know, and Hallis

35:09

or Webby. So, and

35:11

he was different. And which was great. You had

35:13

the links all the way through. So I knew

35:15

so the same as Will knew where I'd be,

35:18

I knew where Rory Underwood would be. Yeah, I

35:20

knew where Simon Hodgkinson would be, like 30 yards

35:22

behind us and Webby. But

35:25

you just knew. Yeah. And

35:27

it was through, it was through

35:29

training, it was through playing against one

35:31

another. You just knew it. And

35:33

it wasn't the better

35:35

we played, the longer we played together, the

35:37

more intuitive it became. And it

35:41

just worked. Can I read you

35:43

a quick, this is from 2001. And this is

35:46

you talking, Jerry. So I think this is

35:48

the release of your autobiography, actually. We

35:51

weren't mates, but we weren't enemies. He was just a guy

35:53

I played rugby with. The difference between him and Leonard is

35:55

I still speak to Jason two or three times a week

35:57

on the phone, whereas Will phones me up when he wants

35:59

me to do so. I don't dislike him, I

36:01

only stretch the imagination. He did a hard job, it's

36:03

difficult to be capped in outside numbers 1 to 10.

36:07

And on Carling the player he could do things I couldn't and

36:09

I could do things he couldn't. He pretty much

36:11

went up and down the line, occasionally he'd break outside

36:13

and he did give me the old pass to continue

36:15

a move. I mean this is obviously

36:17

24 years ago but what's so interesting

36:19

about seeing the two of you now is it sort of

36:21

feels like time has made you

36:23

appreciate what you had more. Were

36:25

there times where you ever actually sort of fell

36:28

out playing or not really? You

36:30

just played together and that was it? Yeah and

36:33

look if I played for Queens we'd

36:35

probably be mates. You

36:37

know I'm mates with Tim because we played at

36:40

birth. Because of the cracking

36:42

check. It's debatable

36:44

but yeah. But we live Mars apart, well not

36:46

totally Mars apart but your lives just go on.

36:48

But we didn't live in the same vicinity. I

36:51

really enjoyed, I wanted to get to England, play with

36:53

England and we did. And when we

36:55

were on the field, when we were on training it

36:57

was great but Will had so much to do off

36:59

the field that we weren't involved in and

37:02

had a personal life also. Will, you could

37:04

put it the other way around, Will wasn't

37:07

in my life off the rugby field but

37:09

there is a massive huge amount

37:11

of respect for what Will could

37:13

do on the field and what we did together. Yeah

37:16

I actually look and I don't know whether you

37:18

get more rose tinses. But I would never

37:20

have said we were mates right? You played, you

37:22

were teammates right? And had massive

37:25

respect but it's almost like

37:27

when you went away there were probably four or

37:29

five guys that you would see. And

37:32

they'd be at your club? Yeah most

37:35

of the time because actually you just

37:38

didn't have time to go. And then there was

37:40

a period so I'm on

37:42

me and Will's Will and Tim, there are jokes

37:46

around and stories around that you just feel

37:48

sometimes just because the audience want to hear

37:51

it whether it's true or whether it's not.

37:53

But you do so the impression might be Will didn't

37:56

pass me. I mean all you've got to do is

37:58

watch the games and realise... God

38:00

see, he tries to think for England.

38:03

He must have passed to me. At

38:05

least he won two of those in K-Shaal. Yeah.

38:08

So, yeah, there's just, you know, how often

38:10

do you see Will Greenwood?

38:13

Well, I see Will because we

38:16

walk in the same space now in terms of the commercial side

38:18

of it, which wasn't a massive

38:20

thing probably when you did it. Well,

38:22

I see Will more than I see

38:24

Bolsh actually now, but... Yeah, well, Bolsh lives in

38:26

another country. Yeah, that's true. Thank God. I

38:29

mean, but only during the summer. Right,

38:31

but he's very rarely socially, it's

38:33

always where that... Yeah, yeah. There's

38:36

another really nice quote, which sort of belies some of

38:38

what we've just touched on, which was actually from a

38:40

really good article with you in The Telegraph the other

38:42

day. And

38:44

the question was put to you, recalling

38:46

your old partner, Jeremy Guskert, when he persuaded

38:48

you to hobble onto a pub on crutches

38:51

for a drink after your final game as

38:53

captain in 96. The

38:55

narrative when he was appointed was the partial idiot in a

38:57

vertical commissary, trying to win over some of England's great hard

38:59

men, Akford T, Winterbottom, Rendell,

39:01

Richards. But he walked into the pub

39:03

that night and they were all there waiting for him. That

39:06

blew me away, said Carling. So

39:08

there obviously was this... I'm just

39:10

fascinated in the characters that you

39:12

were at the very height of your powers and how

39:14

time has sort of... I love what

39:16

you're saying, which is essentially there's a rose-tinted sort

39:18

of looking back at it

39:20

all now. You can

39:22

hardly look back at what happened and

39:24

what we were involved in and be disappointed.

39:27

I mean, crikey, it was mega tight. I

39:29

mean, my memory is

39:32

rubbish and it's nothing to do with the

39:34

knocks and bangs and rubbings because I didn't

39:37

get involved in that side of the game.

39:39

I just wanted to win so

39:41

badly, not to the detriment of the team, not

39:43

to the detriment of relationships and

39:45

then get on it and then properly get on

39:47

it. And those were the days when we did...

39:50

It wasn't until the late 90s that we started

39:52

wandering into time because there weren't so much of

39:54

the functions as we got to the end. But

39:57

it was pretty grim after

39:59

games. get dressed up in DJ's.

40:02

The greatest bit was on the coach going back with a

40:04

new cap or someone you would have to get up and

40:06

sing a song, there'd be drinks,

40:08

he'd quickly crash into the hotel, say

40:12

hi to your missus and then

40:14

there were separate dinners as well. So the girls

40:16

went to one dinner, the men went to an

40:18

all men's dinner, DJ speeches, get the first cap

40:20

drunk, let him puke and

40:23

then get back to the Hilton where we

40:25

could all get to put steak sandwiches and

40:27

free piss on Will's room. Lovely.

40:31

Pick up the tab. Yeah. I haven't spoke

40:33

to me all week and I paid for

40:35

all your drinks. I

40:37

can imagine. You couldn't look back on

40:39

that time and be disappointed. It was

40:42

magical. It really was. But when you're in it,

40:45

you just have very

40:47

little appreciation of what people

40:49

are thinking, how you all, you just want to play the

40:52

next game. Yeah.

40:56

And we were doing okay. So you were thinking it was

40:58

a good time. But part of the

41:03

role was the occasional, people

41:05

got dropped and you had to explain that to them. So there

41:08

were bits that you did, not the most

41:10

popular bit. And I think that's the hard part of

41:12

captaincy is just, everyone likes

41:14

the leadership bit, that's great. But occasionally

41:17

there's, and there's also telling people, that's

41:19

not good enough mate. We got to

41:21

do this or, and so

41:23

yeah, there's always that

41:26

underlying part. And there

41:28

was, and that's just. And I don't think

41:30

Will ever put himself in a position for

41:32

us as a team to go, hold on,

41:35

you're talking about standards. You've got to live

41:37

up to them yourself. Will conducted himself brilliantly

41:41

throughout that period. I mean, even to the point of

41:43

the 57 Old Farts, I

41:46

think people say, I say, I say what I think

41:48

and what other people want to say. And that got

41:50

to a point where Will just said it and it's

41:53

what everybody was thinking. Yeah. How often do people remind you

41:55

of the 57 Old Farts now? Yeah,

41:57

quite a lot. Is it really? just

42:01

one of those phrases that will live forever. Yeah, which

42:05

right or wrongly is just yeah, you

42:08

didn't mean to be out there, but it got

42:10

caught. But hey, that's, you know, by, as

42:14

Jerry said, right, I, you loved

42:16

it, right? And I loved it.

42:19

And I suppose, you know, what I

42:21

don't want, you love it, but you were, you would just

42:23

have to try and keep yourself just slightly detached from it.

42:25

And that's the bit that I sort of, if

42:28

you look back with the thinking, Oh,

42:30

I'd love to have just had a

42:32

bit longer. But yeah,

42:34

I wouldn't change it. No, you know,

42:36

I couldn't, you know, so you got

42:38

errors. So today's captain

42:40

can get dropped like that. Yeah,

42:42

literally like that is, you know,

42:45

you're going through the England team has been

42:47

since 2003, four, five, despite getting to find

42:49

all the those seven. It's been

42:51

quite iffy. Yeah. And, and

42:54

you picked as captain now, you're not

42:56

putting a selection, you've got to be picked

42:59

by the way you're playing, not because

43:02

you're captain. It's happened once, I think when you

43:05

know, pick off because as captain, he picked

43:07

him as captain, not as the best

43:09

player. I think that these days are long gone.

43:12

Yeah. And that's, you know, we'll playing in this

43:14

era was my still struggling to

43:16

make friends, but old

43:20

habits, but you will be more part

43:22

of the captain's more part of the

43:24

team these days without one

43:28

of the really things that interesting things in

43:30

that telegraph article I mentioned that popped up

43:32

was the Mr. Blobby sketch. Yeah. And

43:35

one of the reasons I think that calling

43:37

a gasket stands so high in the in

43:40

the sort of echelons of English rugby partnership

43:42

is because of both of your profile is

43:44

that it

43:46

is your product for us altogether off the pitch

43:48

as well. I mean, you doing gladiators, you know,

43:50

there were it was a

43:53

time where English rugby players were recognizable up

43:55

and down the high street as opposed to I think the

43:58

current crop would say there aren't many necessary that. they

44:00

walk outside it would be great if there was a PR

44:03

came into a room both

44:06

of you I've got a great idea

44:08

I'd love to know his reaction a

44:11

lovely I think gladiator's will you remember

44:22

that I mean it was very very

44:24

funny watching it back again yeah and

44:26

it was enjoyed yeah I can

44:28

only imagine how many reruns

44:30

I don't know it must have been generational right

44:33

they'd find bits of information right and yeah and

44:35

you could tell right the way you knew there

44:37

were bits of information that got out was you

44:39

would get on the coach to go to training

44:42

from the Peterson hotel and we used to go

44:44

and train at Quinn's whatever and the forwards would

44:46

always be on the back and

44:48

you just knew something was out right

44:50

because it would be like and so you would

44:52

sort of sit halfway politically so right and then I

45:01

think there was one time Jerry gets

45:03

on and suddenly they'd found out that

45:05

he used to be a bus driver

45:07

on the borderline in bath right so

45:09

he gets on and then it starts

45:11

off and

45:14

suddenly you hear ding ding next stop

45:16

please drive you know alright Jerry drive

45:19

ding ding right so Jerry's sort of

45:21

looking around going what the you know

45:23

and they're killing themselves laughing right so

45:26

this is just ding ding right and

45:28

I mean he's getting just

45:30

for a letter until you could just

45:32

rely and all you had to do

45:34

in that it was just keep quiet

45:37

keep quiet because Dowie Morris will say

45:39

something even worse right and

45:41

he did he pipes up with something

45:43

and the whole focus goes change Harry

45:45

to Dowie and you're thinking

45:48

it was brutal wasn't it yeah people who

45:50

listened or watched that we just never imagined

45:53

we were any of us were friends no

45:55

it the banter was was

45:57

hard you the pieces into

46:00

one of your old teammates of the day and mentioned

46:02

we were doing this. He said, ah, Buscot, which I

46:04

thought was a very good nickname. Who's that, the L'Oreal?

46:06

No, the L'Oreal. Oh yeah.

46:08

Oh yeah, Jason Lowell would call me Buscot.

46:10

Buscot. Oh, that was a very good one,

46:12

actually. But it's interesting because both of you,

46:15

I mean, the profiles you had meant there was a

46:17

lot of front pages as well as back. The

46:19

environment you were in, was there ever someone who

46:22

you could bounce it off, or did you just

46:24

have to wear it? Did you ever compare notes

46:26

and sort of, are you alright there? I think

46:28

Will started at, what was it, Inspirational Horizons. Was

46:30

that you? You formed a company,

46:32

I think, called Inspirational Horizons. Yeah,

46:35

yeah, yeah, that didn't get mentioned. Right,

46:37

so Will was one of the

46:39

first, certainly in our country, we

46:41

always had rumours of Australians, Kiwis

46:44

being professional rugby players in

46:46

the amateur era, and Will was one of the

46:48

first ones, I think, in the UK, certainly

46:51

England, to sort of get on

46:53

that wagon of forming your own company

46:55

going out and maximising,

46:57

utilising your profile as

47:01

an international and a captain. And that

47:03

was, it was all, to

47:06

me anyway, all seemed quite separate, and then we formed

47:08

a company, the England

47:10

rugby team formed a company before

47:12

the World Cup. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

47:14

yeah, in 91. Yeah,

47:16

yeah. And that was all linked together just for the World

47:18

Cups and the internationals and what promotional

47:21

PR stuff we could do at that

47:24

time with the restrictions that were given

47:27

to us as amateurs. Did you come up against

47:30

a few brick walls in trying to push that

47:32

sort of thing through? Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah,

47:34

and the work, well, the interesting bit was

47:36

when he looked back, I remember I worked

47:38

for Mobile Oil, right? And

47:41

I just, there

47:43

was so much that needed doing, right? And

47:45

I remember giving up my job, and my

47:47

mum said to me, so what are you going to do? And

47:50

I went, I've got no idea. I said,

47:52

and I genuinely had no idea. I said, but

47:54

there's so much that needs to be done here.

47:56

There was a guy, Don Rutherford, you

47:58

know? And I was like, what? I'd be talking

48:00

to Don almost like every day. I

48:03

remember there was a young guy, Mark Hines, who

48:05

was going to have his first cap, and it

48:07

was coming over to France, but he couldn't afford to fly his

48:10

girlfriend over. And I'm like, this is

48:12

ridiculous. All the committee are getting flown

48:14

over. And I'm arguing with Don. I said, you've got

48:16

to get this changed. There

48:18

was no one else to do that stuff. So

48:21

I had to sort of, you just

48:23

kind of get loads and loads of

48:25

bits done. And I just thought, I

48:29

need time to be. I couldn't work and

48:31

do all the stuff that needed doing. So, and actually

48:36

at the time, I sort of,

48:38

you give up your job, we

48:40

weren't doing hugely well. So there

48:42

was no great demand for anything

48:44

leadership wise, but you

48:47

just sort of thought, actually, I've got to give this a go

48:49

for however long I've got it. I'm going to give it

48:51

a go. But yeah, the

48:54

RFU, God, I remember, I

48:56

remember we toured 94, we toured South Africa. And

48:58

the parameter game, I think James Small

49:00

scored, first night game we played. Oh, it

49:02

was interesting. Flashed up on the big

49:05

screen, both ends, his bonus for scoring a

49:07

try. And we

49:09

were standing on the post going, this is interesting. I

49:13

mean, it was just different world. So

49:15

there was a few discussions with the committee guys on

49:18

tour. I don't think anyone as the

49:20

players doing what they were doing. I mean, Rory, if

49:23

there were poster boys, it was people that

49:25

scored tries and people did big tackles and

49:27

a captain. Very good

49:29

Nike advert as well. It's not the winning, it's

49:31

the taking apart. Yeah, taking apart.

49:33

They did it well back then, actually. And

49:36

that was, I think that was better than 91, wasn't it? So

49:39

we didn't actually take, I

49:41

can't remember, the money went to some sort of founder.

49:43

It did, didn't it? But we just wanted to make

49:45

the principle of, we should

49:47

be able to do, there should be adverts with players

49:49

on it. There should be, you know, and Mora was

49:52

leading charge. He

49:54

was pro, was he? Mora, yeah,

49:56

yeah, of course, yeah, yeah. He was, you

49:59

know, whatever needed. doing. We're doing it.

50:03

We had all our jobs that allowed us to

50:07

train. I remember going for one of my interviews

50:09

with, I think

50:11

I was on the buses, so I was on Badger Line

50:13

and I was missing games because of my shift work and

50:15

so the club kind of went right, we've got to change

50:17

this because we need you and the team. I

50:19

went for an interview with British Gas Southwest as

50:21

it was at the time. I was

50:24

sat in this office that is

50:26

about twice the size of this

50:28

studio. I'm having a cup of

50:31

tea, fruitcake, mug saucer and I'm

50:33

chatting and for 25 minutes we talk about the

50:35

game that's just been played, the game that we're

50:37

going to play and the

50:39

last five minutes Shakespeare asked me, well Gerry you've

50:41

got the job. I said, oh what does that

50:43

entail? What can I get

50:45

time off for? And he said, anything rugby related? I

50:48

said, sort of want to train because

50:50

of rugby. Can I have time off? Yeah, yeah of course

50:52

you can. If I get invited to a charity

50:55

golf day because I'm Jeremy Guskal, the rugby player, not

50:57

Jeremy Guskal who works for British Gas. I'm going to lay

50:59

off. Yeah of course you can. I went to about

51:01

two days a week if that. So it

51:03

was, yeah it was in a

51:05

month. A month. That was you.

51:10

But yeah that was it but not the, and then

51:12

the promotional stuff came in. Do you know what I

51:14

did want to put in because we haven't done it

51:16

yet, I can't believe we haven't, is our Continental Tires

51:18

question of the week, feel free to agree or disagree.

51:20

A couple of questions about those you came

51:23

up against, the best presenter partnership you've

51:25

played against? I'll

51:27

let you go first. Did you

51:29

look for the one you most

51:32

enjoyed playing against because of how

51:34

things fitted together and you knew

51:36

you could get over the back of them or did you

51:38

want the ones who challenged you the

51:40

most? The challenge, I mean

51:43

Horan Little were Bunts

51:47

and Little. You knew what was coming with Bunts.

51:49

Well certainly

51:52

you did. So it was like, but Seller. was

52:01

pretty special. Luckily they kept messing him around. I

52:04

think Sharvey and Cellar, Sharvey

52:06

had almost like pace like him

52:08

right, so he worried the

52:10

hell out of me because he had gas. I'm

52:14

not sure, Horan, and I'm not sure

52:16

that Tim, it didn't frighten me in

52:18

the same way that Sharvey

52:20

did and Bunsen Little

52:22

were the same, but I mean there

52:24

were a few good combinations out there.

52:26

It would be the best teams, so

52:28

for me Horan Little were special. They

52:30

were youngsters, they were kids coming up

52:32

through, were just so gifted and talented.

52:36

You always said Sneeman, didn't you this

52:38

time? Sneeman, blimey. We were playing in

52:41

South Africa on the world, 17

52:44

consecutive games, and

52:46

this was at Twickenham and we managed to beat them 13-7.

52:50

I scored it, yeah, it was a little

52:52

chiff across them. Someone tapped it down, I caught it and

52:55

went round close to the post as I could, that

52:57

was 97, yeah, 97, 98. I played in the

52:59

under 21s game before it and we won, and

53:04

then you went on the one and Will

53:06

Coadby did the other sport for a bit. There

53:09

was a moment where Sneeman got the ball and I normally

53:11

showed people there outside, I showed them out the side and

53:13

went, he

53:16

had some serious wheels and one of the boys came

53:18

over and helped me. I was just about getting there

53:20

and someone got there and just stopped it, otherwise that

53:22

would have been it. I'd have let him go on

53:24

the other side, he would have gassed me, we scored

53:26

and we were lost the game. But yeah,

53:28

that was the only thing that I think pacing

53:30

any sport, whether

53:34

it's of mind or of foot, is

53:36

where you've got to be careful. He was a

53:38

guy, you played when

53:41

we played in the Twickenham. South

53:43

Africa, yeah. Luckily

53:48

he was about, he was over the hill by then. But

53:51

Christ, when you watched some of his, wow, he had power. And

53:59

we played against Loewe. which was

54:01

yeah you played with him as well

54:03

do you pay with my last international

54:05

yeah was like a great photo that

54:07

what I've been joined anyway myself and

54:10

and Jonah and you can just look I mean it is

54:12

thighs were like that and I'll sat next to him I

54:14

look like a school kid right and

54:16

literally a shrinking violet next to this enormous

54:19

man but yeah playing with him was a was

54:21

a great joy and playing against him was just

54:23

a bit of a worry he'd literally see the

54:25

ball going along the line and thinking you've got

54:27

to be there you've got

54:30

to be there and there's no way you

54:32

can crumple but you're just thinking keep going

54:34

on the outside can't keep going oh oh

54:36

yeah I better go and help he was

54:39

he's courageous you see yeah we talk about

54:41

Jerry actually which which I you know one

54:43

of the one of the bits

54:47

I think for me that sort of some we during

54:49

the World Cup in 95 yeah we

54:52

decided for a bit of team building I don't

54:54

know how this came under the guys of team

54:57

building we'd go paintballing right and it

54:59

was forwards against backs right right and brilliant idea

55:01

so yeah so Jerry worked out that he wasn't

55:04

having any part of this he was gonna spend

55:06

the four hours or whatever it was in a

55:08

wheelie bin right so this is what happens if

55:10

you run out

55:19

of ammo right you just put your gun above

55:21

your head and you walk back and you know

55:23

and I remember I found this really interesting spot

55:25

where I could see

55:40

there was like a walkway over it was a

55:42

big disused factory and I

55:44

could hear more crawling right it's one of

55:46

the great one of my most

55:48

satisfying moments as

55:51

captain and eventually his ugly little face

55:53

appears right he's obviously and he's chuntering

55:55

away they're coming I

56:00

just managed to get him right between the other

56:02

side. Can't repeat

56:04

what he said, but I just lay there laughing

56:06

for about 20 minutes. He hated it. But

56:09

yeah, so courageous. He just... Yeah,

56:11

the face. He was a model at that point. Do

56:14

you want to mean it was the face? Was that the

56:16

cotton traders? Yeah, a bit

56:19

of catalog stuff as

56:21

well. South Africa, Florida, California.

56:23

So it wasn't all bad. I'm

56:26

not doing that to make you fucking happy. Are

56:30

you modeling for anyone now? No, not

56:33

currently. Tell me about

56:35

your relationship with Brian. Because

56:37

the two of you, it sounds like you

56:39

got on with it. Did you bang him a little?

56:41

Shall I say from the outside? It's

56:43

keeping time to think. Yeah, well I'm sure it was

56:45

from the same... It was very

56:47

new to me and we had that game in 1990.

56:52

And there were some decisions making... I

56:55

mean, Will wasn't like straight away, boom, this is what's going

56:57

to happen. There was a little bit of a chat and

56:59

you could see that game. It was

57:01

an important game. And Rob and

57:03

Will would have a conversation and then Rassim Frassim

57:05

would come up and you'd just see some flipping

57:08

spittle going everywhere. Flittle

57:10

jostleskulation and flipping pointing

57:12

and all that kind of stuff. And

57:14

then there'd be a scrum. And you'd

57:16

think, was there a conversation that went on? Or was it just going to

57:19

be done? But he

57:21

came to Harlow Quinn's and he became Best Buddies. Yeah.

57:25

He was... it's weird, isn't it? He's

57:29

a very smart, eloquent boy, right? So if

57:31

I ever said, right, hey guys, I think

57:33

we should do... You would

57:35

be the first voice you'd

57:37

do is why. And you had

57:39

a very good reason as to why this was... And

57:41

you would get picked to pieces. And

57:43

I think I used to try and go for dinner

57:46

with him maybe once a month just to try and

57:48

get to know him. Got nowhere near him.

57:51

Really? Absolutely. I

57:53

think, hey look, and I understand, right, the one

57:55

thing he wanted more than anything was to

57:57

be England captain. And silver spoon. had

58:01

got it and he just

58:03

wanted it and the two times that I was injured,

58:06

Rob got it. Right. So,

58:08

but you know, it's not the kind of thing that you

58:11

ever dwell on and in 2015 I think, I

58:14

remember getting a letter and Rob

58:16

got one as well saying, you know, there

58:18

was a certain allocation of World Cup tickets

58:21

for ex-players but there was a slightly bigger

58:23

allocation for England captains.

58:26

And I rang Moro said, have you got your letter?

58:29

You know, and he said, what was it? I said, well, you know,

58:31

you've just seen that. It's great, isn't it? If you're captain England, you

58:33

got, you're getting a few more. Oh, sorry, Brian,

58:36

wrong number. He went. Fucking

58:38

mad. But

58:41

so he, oh no, I get

58:43

on a lot better with him

58:45

since it's all over, you know, I have seen

58:48

him socially, you know, not through choice,

58:50

but it's like, and

58:52

I have so, but he

58:54

was, he

58:56

was interesting. He was hard work,

58:58

but yeah, yeah. This

59:01

the bit, right? You know, I would say at

59:04

times he was really hard. I would say at times

59:06

he was hard work and, but

59:08

in a good way, it's all just, yeah,

59:11

yeah. There was nothing toxic. It was challenging.

59:13

And you got a decent answer. You could

59:15

go with it, but it was so different,

59:17

like, obviously catching the end of this era

59:20

and coming into, you know, walking into that sort

59:22

of back change rooms, playing, I think I

59:25

played his will in 19. Go on. Because

59:28

I asked you about this before we recorded in his

59:30

last game for Quinn's. We will play it. And what

59:32

did you say? This is not true. Obviously we've heard

59:34

that they, you know, he took captain in late 88

59:36

when I was 10. So I basically

59:38

said, I've watched you since I was

59:40

11. I got moved to the centres at 14. And

59:43

then suddenly these two guys were the guys that I

59:45

was trying to, I hope we

59:48

just beaten them and he just went just fuck off.

1:00:00

I'm not a magician winner. I'm not what he

1:00:02

wanted here that time. I've

1:00:04

already been here that way. I

1:00:07

really like you. But you

1:00:09

were going to go on

1:00:11

to say something before you got into that or

1:00:13

not. The era that it was, it was relentless about

1:00:16

what you had to take verbally, physically,

1:00:19

in training, you know, thirty nights, first,

1:00:21

first and second, talked about loads of

1:00:23

times. But it was also

1:00:25

passing the test that you were mentally tough enough.

1:00:29

I've always said stories about Jerry, the fact that he

1:00:31

did that on purpose to players. So you

1:00:33

have to go through that. I

1:00:35

mean, me and Bolsh got through

1:00:37

probably quicker than most because you

1:00:39

give him something back. But you've also got to

1:00:42

back it up with playing. You can't say it

1:00:44

and not deliver it. But

1:00:48

it was part of that era that the

1:00:50

fact that you get through that and then

1:00:53

you're into the inner sanctum. But

1:00:55

also, Tins, I think that's the – you

1:00:58

also, as a group, people

1:01:01

were just honest. You can imagine Dino

1:01:03

and Wints and those kind of guys,

1:01:06

they would tell you straight what they thought. There

1:01:08

was no, oh, a bit sensitive about his feelings,

1:01:10

right? They told you.

1:01:12

And I think that's the bit that I

1:01:15

think is very, very different, say, to –

1:01:17

and generations are different, right?

1:01:19

But you had to deal with

1:01:21

that because there was no – and you would have had

1:01:23

that with Dono and all that sort of stuff. And it's

1:01:25

like, that's great as long as it comes off. If it

1:01:27

doesn't come off, you'll find out very quickly. But that's the

1:01:30

difference of playing. I never had

1:01:32

any fear of getting the ball and trying something.

1:01:34

There could be a move called, I've

1:01:36

got the ball. My bat, my ball. If

1:01:38

I can see something, I'm going for it. But I'm not

1:01:40

afraid to fail. And

1:01:44

the same thing as, you know, you've got banter

1:01:46

on the coach in the changing room, in the

1:01:48

hotel, in the team room. It

1:01:51

exists because generally the

1:01:54

team's going well. If you're

1:01:56

playing poorly, I think it drops

1:01:58

off because you're a bit worried. to

1:02:00

be worried about saying something but if

1:02:02

your team's going well the banter is absolutely flying

1:02:04

around the room around the change room but also

1:02:06

think even even in a game you can give

1:02:09

somebody something for that oh yeah I'm going well

1:02:11

but I also think it was almost like you

1:02:13

you know I'm sure tins are the same people

1:02:15

seem to think you play for England right you're

1:02:18

all best mates yeah you're not you

1:02:20

know you have mates and everything but your teammates and what

1:02:22

I would like to think is that you

1:02:25

know you didn't get on with some guys

1:02:27

and vice-versa you know but they

1:02:29

were your teammates so if anyone from outside

1:02:31

had a go it's just like I don't

1:02:33

know you know he's my teammate

1:02:35

and you might not go for a beer with

1:02:37

him but he's your teammate and I think that's

1:02:40

that was the bit is just there was no

1:02:42

one in the team you couldn't I

1:02:44

genuinely I don't I think

1:02:46

I've gone you

1:02:48

can't with everybody just gone

1:02:50

more yes yeah and I

1:02:52

could see anybody that I used to play with

1:02:55

and and have a beer now you

1:02:57

just didn't have the time when you played in drink you've summed

1:02:59

that up absolutely perfectly and that's exactly

1:03:01

what I thought this show would be which is

1:03:03

it was what it was and now

1:03:05

there's a sort of a slightly different feeling to it and

1:03:08

the question I was sort of gonna finish with is that

1:03:10

you obviously had that very very sad news about the

1:03:12

judge last year and I'm alright you all got back

1:03:14

together again was it the yeah I can't remember which

1:03:16

which team it was 92 93 91 92 yeah you

1:03:21

had a reunion with the great and the good that was

1:03:24

that very much the same ethos but once

1:03:26

we were teammates and now actually we've been through so much

1:03:29

it's sort of good to see you again type thing

1:03:31

yeah no I hey look I speak for

1:03:33

me I think it really was it was

1:03:36

really good to see lots of them

1:03:39

and I think that's the bit where and

1:03:41

not because he's sitting here but there's quite where you just

1:03:43

think I wish I'd sort of made a

1:03:45

bit more of an effort to see more of glad

1:03:48

you do know with

1:04:00

But it's like, and I think that's the bit, and

1:04:02

it's like with Dino, you know, we were in France

1:04:05

and I said to him the other day, I want

1:04:08

to organise a Geofancy lunch, he said yeah,

1:04:10

and I was getting teagie and him and

1:04:12

so some of us might, you know, and

1:04:14

I just thought actually I want to go

1:04:16

for lunch and just have a chat. But

1:04:20

I think for the judge, it

1:04:22

was really, really good to see, you know, lots

1:04:24

of guys that you quite

1:04:27

haven't seen for 10, 20 years. And

1:04:29

it was like, again, it is your friends

1:04:31

from school, uni, wherever it might be, when

1:04:34

you're that close and it's that intense

1:04:36

and that emotional, everything's in there, you

1:04:39

pick up where you left off. It was a

1:04:41

very, very, I mean, it was a very special

1:04:43

team in what was a very special era as

1:04:45

well. It sort of felt like the

1:04:47

era that we grew up in. It was a lot of,

1:04:49

it's very different to where we are now. Are

1:04:52

there any itches you'd love to scratch from what

1:04:54

was or are you, as a whole,

1:04:56

when you look back now? I've never watched the World

1:04:58

Cup Final of 91 because we lost and why would

1:05:00

I want to watch

1:05:07

it? We

1:05:09

played World Cup Final on Saturday, working on Monday

1:05:12

morning. That's the difference of eras. Having a cup

1:05:14

of tea with British Gas. It's

1:05:18

really translate to his golf day. No,

1:05:22

I'm one of those people I want

1:05:25

to live life and I was

1:05:28

fortunate, as we all were,

1:05:30

to play a time and an era that

1:05:33

was just good fun and a good crack.

1:05:36

We had some success along the way. But

1:05:39

no, I've got no scratches that

1:05:41

need itching. Well, no,

1:05:44

I, you know, exactly

1:05:47

the same. It's almost like on

1:05:51

that, sometimes I don't have anything in the house

1:05:53

in terms of, I don't know, Jerry or Tim,

1:05:55

but it's just like, because part of it is

1:05:57

I don't want to live the whole time. just looking back. I Loved it.

1:06:00

I really did love it. It was. It

1:06:04

without it was very special time. but it's almost

1:06:06

like. It. Either. Yeah,

1:06:08

there's plenty a life in this stuff to

1:06:10

be enjoyed now so I don't have any.

1:06:13

Certainly. Don't have anything that I think it

1:06:15

is can get back together. They. Is

1:06:17

as you can you can yeah you

1:06:20

know were guy says and at tins

1:06:22

was looking as turn away and is

1:06:24

kind yeah this is gonna be good

1:06:26

because he to sell for you you

1:06:28

left off but there is evidence that

1:06:30

just get together to judge can together

1:06:32

at the at the world cup. Rob

1:06:35

myself, Dane and and Will because he joke

1:06:38

each other's memories about what happened and he

1:06:40

to all yeah I remember that that was

1:06:42

a really good cry out but weirdly it

1:06:44

wouldn't be certainly for backs it wouldn't be

1:06:46

about the game he get the full was

1:06:49

a member has a city at night it's

1:06:51

because it was. You know you to get

1:06:53

away with so much more clear in those

1:06:55

days and you can eat Kanye but this

1:06:58

just is reminiscing because we live life to

1:07:00

create memories hopefully the been fortunate you been

1:07:02

lucky and to look back on them and

1:07:04

they. Never get tiring. The. Of

1:07:06

the never not funny, they just get that

1:07:08

I had to uninstall embellishment. It's annoying one

1:07:11

else for them to us As far as

1:07:13

you think that that's very true right? And

1:07:15

I've done things will be exact. I think

1:07:17

because you'd go through. Experiences

1:07:19

together as a good and bad right. You

1:07:21

see each other, You really see each other.

1:07:23

You see see, see each other under pressure.

1:07:26

is he tried again Things wrong. She tried

1:07:28

to get things right. You go through, you

1:07:30

have. A great hall winning games disappointment

1:07:32

of let you know you ghost all that. So

1:07:34

I think when you like when we got back

1:07:37

together for lunch is like a times you just

1:07:39

it just. It's. The same humor

1:07:41

at least thirty years apart or something

1:07:43

but it just you straight into it

1:07:45

with people I suppose that you just

1:07:48

have a bond with because he goes

1:07:50

through. Something that was was was very

1:07:52

intense but really really special reserve to

1:07:54

dance around in bed after dancer it

1:07:56

straight into the of it just. as

1:07:59

as the best thing about it because it doesn't matter if

1:08:01

you don't see him for 15 years, you're straight back in

1:08:03

there. Yeah, very special. Oh

1:08:06

yeah, well they were inspirations to me.

1:08:08

They said, actually I've worked. Fuck off.

1:08:10

Something's never changed. Just before

1:08:12

we finish, do you want to do the honours? One

1:08:16

of the two will enjoy it far more than the other

1:08:18

by the sound of it. Yeah, I think they'll both. Well

1:08:20

I hope they'll enjoy it. We like to give gifts out

1:08:22

and we're on here. So this is our gin that we

1:08:24

are putting money back into the game to help for the

1:08:26

future of the game. Thank you. It's

1:08:28

good for us right now if you need something to strip the

1:08:31

paint back. It's

1:08:33

been a real privilege and I mean,

1:08:36

you grew up, we grew up, a lot of people

1:08:38

will have thoroughly enjoyed watching you at your best and

1:08:41

it's very, very nice to see the two of you

1:08:43

back together again. Pleasure to be here. Good on you.

1:08:45

Thank you very much indeed. Very, very special episode of

1:08:47

Rugby's Greatest Unions. I hope you've enjoyed it. If you

1:08:49

haven't seen the one yet with Gary Armstrong and Craig

1:08:51

Chalmers, which was very

1:08:53

interesting in itself, wasn't it, the Scottish version, then do

1:08:55

go check that out. Thank you very much indeed for

1:08:57

watching. This is The Good, The Bad and The Rugby

1:08:59

with content on Tires. We'll see you again soon. Bye

1:09:01

for now. You've

1:09:08

been listening to The Good, The

1:09:10

Bad and The Rugby

1:09:13

with Alex Payne, James Haskell and

1:09:16

Mike Tyndall. Thanks for listening. I'm

1:09:27

not Mike Tyndall. I'm not going to crash it. I'm

1:09:34

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