0:01

Since J&K Security Solutions opened in

0:03

1987, our attention to detail and

0:05

customer service have been our strongest

0:07

assets. I'm President Jeffrey Beckman.

0:09

We'll always do our best to find the

0:12

most efficient and cost-effective solution to every job

0:14

we tackle. Whether it's security for

0:16

your home or business, installing video surveillance, or

0:18

being able to control your garage doors from

0:20

your phone, we can help

0:22

you feel empowered with simple and user-friendly technology.

0:25

Let's work together to secure your home

0:28

or business. jksecurity.com Since

0:32

J&K Security Solutions opened in 1987, our

0:34

attention to detail and customer service have

0:36

been our strongest assets. I'm

0:39

President Jeffrey Beckman. We'll always do our best

0:41

to find the most efficient and cost-effective solution

0:43

to every job we tackle. Whether

0:46

it's security for your home or business, installing

0:48

video surveillance, or being able to control your

0:50

garage doors from your phone, we

0:52

can help you feel empowered with simple

0:54

and user-friendly technology. Let's work

0:57

together to secure your home or

0:59

business. jksecurity.com Since

1:27

J&K Security Solutions opened in 1987, our attention to detail and customer

1:29

service have been our strongest assets.

1:33

I'm President Jeffrey Beckman. We'll always do our best to find

1:35

the most efficient and cost-effective solution to every job we tackle.

1:41

Whether it's security for your home or business, installing video

1:43

surveillance, or being able to control your garage doors from

1:45

your phone, we

1:48

can help you feel empowered with simple and user-friendly

1:50

technology. Let's work

1:52

together to secure your home or business. jksecurity.com

2:30

Today on the Graham Talks, Decefting the Dead, a conversation with

2:32

Elliott Van Dusen. Since

2:52

childhood, Elliott Van Dusen has been fascinated

2:55

by the supernatural and law enforcement. He

2:57

earned a Bachelor of Arts in Criminology

2:59

from St. Mary's University. Having served as

3:02

the Royal Canadian Mounted Police for 15

3:04

years, he retired as a court will.

3:06

Over the course of his career, he

3:08

specialized in major crimes, including homicide, sex

3:11

crimes, and drug enforcement. Today, he

3:13

serves as the Director of the Paranormal

3:15

Phenomena Research and Investigation Team. We

3:18

learn about his research and experiences

3:20

with the paranormal on the Graham

3:22

Talks. For me, looking

3:25

back at things, the first

3:27

memory I have of being interested

3:29

in the paranormal was the television

3:31

show Unsolved Mysteries. It

3:33

was two reasons for that. One, I

3:36

always wanted to be a police officer,

3:38

so I found the homicide cold cases

3:40

that Unsolved Mysteries would show very interesting.

3:42

But then every once in a while,

3:44

they'd talk about a ghost file or

3:46

a UFO file or even a cryptid

3:49

file. That too also

3:51

fascinated me. So

3:53

I watched that show religiously.

3:55

Then I think

3:57

in about 1997, I

4:00

discovered the X-Files TV show and that had come

4:02

out in 1993 but I didn't find it about

4:06

it until 1997 and

4:08

I thought it was really cool. It had

4:10

two law enforcement officers investigating the paranormal so

4:14

I decided to start my own kind

4:16

of research organization to look into

4:19

anything paranormal and unexplained

4:22

and then we moved to Halifax, Nova

4:24

Scotia from Sydney, Nova Scotia which is

4:26

about five hours away. Back

4:30

in 1998 and my mother had come

4:32

to me with a newspaper article talking

4:35

about a gentleman at the Nova Scotia

4:37

Community College that was teaching parapsychology so

4:39

I went on their website and

4:42

saw that they offered two different courses and signed

4:45

up for them both and the instructor

4:48

would later become my mentor

4:52

in parapsychology and it's

4:55

Dr. Darryl Walsh who's also part of

4:57

my organization that I still

4:59

run today which is called Paranormal Phenomena

5:02

Research and Investigation and

5:04

once I completed those two courses

5:06

of course my interest in the

5:08

subject never really waned so I

5:11

continued to seek out other

5:14

sort of educational opportunities that were available

5:16

at the time and at the time

5:18

there wasn't really much available for parapsychology

5:21

education but I ended up taking a

5:23

diploma program through the Stratford Career Institute

5:26

out of Toronto, Ontario and

5:29

then of course I went to St. Mary's University

5:32

where I studied criminology which is

5:34

a mix basically of sociology and

5:36

psychology then I got recruited by

5:38

the RCMP so I

5:40

kind of did the opposite of what Fox Mulder

5:42

did where he went from kind of behavioral sciences

5:45

to the paranormal whereas I had come

5:47

from the paranormal into

5:50

the RCMP doing law enforcement and I spent,

5:52

I did 15 years, I just retired May

5:54

2020 and I spent

5:57

8 of those 15 years doing major

5:59

crimes. behavioral science, homicide

6:01

type work. But

6:04

I also continue to kind

6:06

of do the paranormal from the side of

6:08

my desk, I guess. Tried

6:11

to take a few more courses and

6:13

eventually I took a degree program while

6:15

I was a police officer.

6:21

I learned very quickly you don't talk

6:23

about the paranormal in law enforcement. At

6:25

least that was my experience. I have

6:27

talked to a few police officers that

6:29

have had the opposite experience. But much

6:32

like Fox Mulder did in the television show,

6:34

I received a lot of ridicule for being

6:37

interested in the subject. So I

6:39

pursued it quietly. And

6:42

then about a couple of years before I

6:44

retired, I knew I was getting ready to

6:47

probably medical out of the

6:49

Royal Canadian amount of police. And I

6:51

started to do the odd

6:53

podcast here and there. And then

6:56

I had a huge file I worked on

6:58

in Rhode Island haunting. And

7:00

I wrote a book on it and started

7:02

to come back out and out

7:04

of the closet, so to speak.

7:07

And then once I was

7:09

back out there and I retired from the RCMP, now

7:11

this is pretty much all that I do because

7:14

I'm on pension and I have the

7:16

fortunate opportunity to just kind of work

7:19

at this at my own time and

7:21

at my own leisure and do

7:23

as much of it that I want now. Sure.

7:26

When you were in the

7:29

amount of police before

7:31

you retired, what sort of

7:33

experience, did you have any experiences in

7:35

that capacity as essentially a police officer?

7:39

Not as a police officer. Before I joined

7:41

the RCMP, we had, my

7:44

organization had investigated a haunted house

7:46

in Kentville, Nova Scotia. It

7:48

was built in the 1800s. And

7:51

a couple had just bought it and moved in. They

7:54

had only lived there for about six months. And

7:57

they had reported a few different things, which is what

7:59

piqued my curiosity. So, one,

8:02

they said that they would see an apparition of

8:04

a female walk down the main stairwell, kind of

8:06

like a split entry home. They

8:10

had a dog pass away and they started

8:12

seeing the spirit of the dog in

8:14

the house, especially in their bedroom. They

8:17

thought they were seeing faces in

8:20

photographs, which I'll get to in a minute.

8:23

And they also had

8:25

pennies that were materializing in the house

8:28

on their own. So there's a

8:30

lot of activity going on. So I was certainly interested. So

8:32

I put together a team

8:35

of about five of us and

8:37

we went down and of course

8:40

we get there and we scan the house and

8:42

it's clean. And they showed us the jar where

8:44

they collect all the pennies, but I mean, it

8:46

wasn't anything impressive. You know, it just looked

8:48

like a change jar that someone was saving up

8:51

their change with. But we checked,

8:53

you know, the kitchen and the living room in

8:55

the house and there was no pennies laying around,

8:57

no loose change. And

9:00

as the evening would go on, we

9:02

would take our base readings with the

9:04

electromagnetic field radiation detector, which is used

9:06

to, you know, check the wiring

9:08

in the house to make sure that there's

9:11

no unshielded wires or dangerous levels

9:13

of radiation leaking out of them.

9:16

And by the stairwell where they used to see the

9:18

female at first come down, we were getting quite

9:20

a high reading there. And

9:23

it was pretty consistent. And

9:26

then around three in the morning, I had

9:28

an investigator that was checking the camera in the

9:30

kitchen, dining room area about

9:32

once every hour, just to make sure the

9:34

tape was still good and batteries were still

9:36

good. And sure enough,

9:38

at three o'clock in the morning around there,

9:42

he had found a penny at the base

9:44

of the tripod that had appeared. And

9:47

where the camera was situated at, there was only one

9:49

way in, one way out. And the entire investigative team

9:51

was sitting in the living room, which was the only

9:53

way in and out. And

9:55

so nobody else in the household had,

9:58

you know, come in through there. none

10:00

of my investigators had gone in through there except

10:02

for the guy that was checking the equipment and

10:05

You can hear everything on the audio So, you

10:08

know, you could kind of hear our conversation in

10:10

the background and then when he would go check

10:12

the equipment You could hear his footsteps really clearly

10:14

on the tape But at no time do you

10:16

hear any metal hit the

10:18

floor or anyone shuffling around or

10:20

anything like that And of

10:22

course right where the penny was at the base

10:24

of the tripod was outside of the camera Lens

10:27

is few so you don't actually see anything

10:30

on there And

10:32

that's kind of all that happened that night

10:34

which was you know, really interesting So we

10:36

got these high emf readings and we have

10:38

a penny that you know appeared that we

10:41

couldn't explain so we asked if we

10:43

could come back a second night and She

10:46

said sure and so we came back a second night.

10:48

I brought a bigger team this time about ten of

10:51

us So we had most

10:53

of the team inside and we had two

10:55

guys outside with night vision on

10:58

the house as well. So When

11:00

we were in the house again, we started

11:02

getting those high emf readings near the stairwell

11:05

So one of my investigators had the idea

11:07

to turn off the power to the

11:09

house so we asked the homeowners

11:11

if we could just kind of go down to the

11:13

breaker box and turn off the master power switch and

11:15

they were okay with that and Once

11:19

that was done the emf readings near

11:21

the stairwell stopped So

11:23

he turned the power back on and

11:25

of course the emf readings started up again

11:28

So he asked me to kind of stop my

11:30

foot where I was standing So I did that

11:33

and he kind of followed the noise and the

11:35

wiring and the electrical underneath the

11:38

main floor and He

11:40

found basically unshielded wires because the home

11:43

was built in the 1800s. So That

11:47

kind of explained Why

11:49

we were getting that constant consistent

11:51

high emf reading so we

11:53

let the homeowners know because that might be

11:55

something you want to get Fixed sure so

11:57

the fire breaks out What?

12:00

So I was kind of like, ah, I

12:02

mean, that's kind of good, even though it

12:04

wasn't paranormal. We kind of saw one mystery.

12:07

And then all of a sudden, about halfway through the

12:09

night, we got a radio call from

12:12

one of our guys outside and they asked if

12:14

there was anybody upstairs in the house. And

12:16

we said no, we were all downstairs at

12:18

the time. And he was kind

12:21

of panicked, sounded like he was panicking. And

12:23

he said he was going to go upstairs and check

12:25

it out because him and the other investigator outside thought

12:27

that they had seen somebody in an upstairs bedroom. And

12:31

so he went upstairs and when he opened

12:33

the bedroom door, he said that there was

12:35

a female apparition of

12:37

a little girl sitting on the bed

12:41

where they had seen movement in the window.

12:44

And he froze and was terrified

12:47

and eventually got on the radio and

12:49

yelled for us to come upstairs. And

12:52

by the time we all got upstairs, there's about six

12:55

of us in the room, I think, as

12:57

a time the apparition had disappeared. So the

12:59

only one that had seen it was my

13:01

investigator, Adam. And

13:03

we put the EMF reader on the

13:06

bed and we were still kind of

13:08

getting sporadic spikes on the

13:10

EMF, which was interesting because it wasn't near any outlets

13:12

or anything like that. It was right in the middle

13:14

of the room. Yet it was detecting

13:17

electromagnetic energy. And

13:21

we kind of felt drawn to the closet. I couldn't

13:23

explain it. We all just kind of were

13:25

staring at this closet door that was shut and

13:28

one of the investigators opened it up. And as soon

13:30

as he opened it up, all six of us in

13:33

the room immediately felt like this

13:35

ice cold. And I policed up in

13:37

the Arctic for five years. It

13:40

was even colder than that. So colder

13:42

than like minus 60 degrees Celsius. Go

13:46

right through us. Like it felt like it went like

13:48

right through our chest and it kind of took your

13:50

breath away. And then the coldness

13:52

just kind of dissipated. And

13:55

we had a reverend on our team at the time.

13:57

So he just kind of said like non-denial.

14:00

combinational prayer type thing and then the

14:02

room kind of felt like it was that piece

14:04

of the emf reader stopped buzzing and the

14:07

like I said the cold spot had dissipated and That's

14:12

that's all the activity that kind of

14:14

happened at that house. We were able

14:16

to solve the photo Photograph

14:18

issue later on with the faces in

14:20

the photograph. So what it was was

14:23

because it was this old 18th century

14:26

home or 19th century home with

14:28

those nice wooden door frames with the

14:30

high gloss on it Whenever

14:33

they would take pictures It

14:36

was basically visual pareidolia, which

14:38

is when your mind Tries

14:41

to look for a face. So same

14:43

as if you look up at the clouds long enough

14:46

You'll eventually you know see Mickey Mouse up in the

14:48

clouds or you'll see a knife in

14:50

shining armor Whatever your mind wants to kind

14:52

of lead you to believe That's

14:55

what was happening with the with the photograph But

14:58

we still could not explain Adam seeing

15:00

the apparition or the penny

15:03

so there was no doubt in my mind that

15:05

that house was haunted and that

15:08

was my first I Would

15:11

say that was my first experience with

15:13

the paranormal and that was just before

15:15

I had joined the police force

15:17

probably about two years before Something

15:19

after having that experience I mean, did you

15:21

accept it right away that this was a

15:24

paranormal experience? Were you? Trying

15:26

to obviously you did do some research

15:28

to try and figure out what's you

15:30

know, what is logical here? What is

15:32

just our bodies and brains doing their

15:34

thing? But was it difficult to accept

15:36

that you know, there you just had

15:38

an experience I

15:41

think for some of the investigators it was for me

15:45

I've always been a believer.

15:47

I'm definitely a lot more critical now,

15:49

you know fast-forwarding I've

15:51

been doing I've been doing the you know, paranormal

15:54

research investigation now for 25 years Sure,

15:56

so the longer and the older

15:59

I guess I find them more like

16:01

critical I get, especially after being in the police

16:03

force. But at the time, those

16:05

two things sat okay

16:07

with me. I had

16:09

read other literature that pennies in

16:12

particular show up at certain haunted

16:14

houses, but other people have reported

16:16

other coins materializing as well. We

16:18

had a poltergeist case here

16:21

in Nova Scotia back in the 1800s that

16:24

the Society for Psychical Research had

16:27

investigated in Windsor, Nova Scotia. And

16:31

they had foreign coins coming

16:34

from Europe that were materializing

16:36

over there. So that

16:39

part wasn't uncommon. And

16:41

then of course, the investigators

16:43

seeing the apparition as well. I

16:50

felt there was something

16:52

paranormal happening for sure.

16:55

Now apparitions, there's different theories on

16:58

it. So we know that high

17:00

excessive amounts of electromagnetic energy can

17:03

cause people to see apparitions.

17:05

And in this house did have some of

17:07

that down by the

17:09

stairwell. So that could have been

17:11

possibly why the homeowners were seeing

17:13

this apparition walk up and down

17:15

those stairs. There's

17:19

also been other cases as well. One

17:21

as recent as 2005 where carbon monoxide

17:23

has been linked to people seeing

17:26

apparitions. There was a lady getting a

17:28

shower and this

17:30

apparition had appeared. And

17:32

of course, she freaked out because she's in

17:34

the shower and this apparition appears in the

17:36

shower with her. So she calls a paranormal

17:38

investigative team. And when they

17:40

conducted their investigation, they found out she had

17:42

just had a brand new hot water tank

17:44

installed and it was installed improperly. So it

17:46

was giving off excessive amounts of carbon

17:50

monoxide, which was causing her

17:52

to hallucinate. So there's certainly,

17:54

you know, normal, rational, scientific

17:56

explanation about why people see

17:58

ghosts. then there's also that

18:03

other percent where you just can't explain

18:05

this. Yes. Anyways, I think one day,

18:07

you know, we'll possibly be able to

18:10

kind of clean the field up a

18:12

little bit and have stronger explanations for

18:14

things. But, you know, right now, just

18:16

with the technology that's available and all

18:19

the experiences that are reported by people,

18:21

because that's what we do as parapsychologists,

18:23

we study and that's why

18:25

parapsychology is actually considered a social

18:27

science is because we study the

18:29

human experience. That's what's being reported

18:31

to us as humans experience with

18:33

these apparitions. So, yeah,

18:37

I think I where I was a believer

18:40

and those two things were not out of the ordinary

18:42

for the paranormal. I think I was OK with those.

18:46

It was so it's interesting is when

18:48

our minds do these things, when the

18:50

wiring's not right, when there's carbon monoxide

18:53

and things of that nature and we

18:55

start to hallucinate or see things, the

18:57

carbon monoxide, I understand more. The

19:00

wiring, to me, is still like always kind

19:02

of a weirder, more tricky one to

19:07

understand. Give me

19:09

a better understanding of the EMF

19:11

and how that affects our brain

19:13

and how the human brain ends

19:15

up going to creating these images in

19:18

front of us, these hallucinations, you

19:21

know, without the aid of, you

19:23

know, gases or a substance or anything

19:25

like that. Well,

19:27

the biggest study that we're

19:29

aware of was

19:32

done by Dr. Michael Persinger, who's

19:34

deceased now, unfortunately. But he was

19:36

a neuroscientist at Laurentian University in

19:39

Ontario, and he created what's

19:41

called the God helmet. So he took

19:43

a snowmobile helmet and he

19:45

had placed electrodes in it and

19:48

he found research participants to participate

19:50

in a study. And he

19:52

had a belief that people

19:55

are experiencing the paranormal, but

19:57

that he believed it was.

20:00

being caused by something in the environment.

20:04

So he didn't doubt people's experiences, but he

20:06

thought that there was some sort of like

20:08

scientific explanation for it. So he created the

20:10

God helmet and what he would do is

20:12

get participants to put this helmet on and

20:15

he would slowly increase the magnetic

20:17

field through

20:20

the electrodes in the helmets. And once it

20:22

got to a certain point, people

20:25

started reporting apparitions. They would see

20:27

apparitions that they didn't know. Some

20:30

people would report apparitions of deceased

20:32

loved ones. And then other people

20:34

would even report religious figures such

20:36

as the Virgin Mary and Jesus

20:38

Christ. And

20:41

he was able to kind of

20:43

keep replicating those results. And after

20:45

he passed away, actually, the

20:49

research assistant or some assistance that he

20:52

had on the

20:54

patent to the God helmet, they

20:56

have kind of a homemade version of

20:58

it. You can buy it. It's quite

21:00

expensive. It's about $650, $700 US. I

21:04

believe it's called the Shira helmet. They renamed

21:06

it, but you can actually purchase it yourself

21:09

and people

21:11

can do their own kind of experiments

21:13

with it. But we know from that that,

21:17

you know, people can, I

21:20

don't want to say hallucinate, but

21:22

they can experience, you know, an

21:24

apparition from that increase. And

21:27

my partner, Dara Wall, she

21:29

actually had a case where somebody was reporting

21:32

a haunting in a house, but it was

21:34

only in the bedroom. And

21:36

when he went to investigate, he

21:39

found out that there was this old

21:41

alarm clock next to

21:43

the bed and it

21:45

was giving off high excessive amounts

21:47

of electromagnetic radiation. So

21:49

the EMF reader was just through the

21:51

roof on this thing. And

21:54

he had made that suggestion to the

21:56

homeowners to replace that clock or unplug

21:58

that clock and just kind of see and

22:01

make note of any sort of activity that

22:03

happens in the house. And

22:05

once that clock was removed from

22:08

the room, the people stopped experiencing

22:10

seeing an apparition late at night while

22:13

they were sleeping. And

22:15

they never ever did have any other activity

22:17

happen. So that's

22:20

kind of where that

22:22

part comes from. Now

22:25

the geomagnetic activity from

22:27

the Earth as well has also been

22:29

linked to UFO sightings. I

22:33

know when I used to investigate UFO

22:35

sightings, sometimes they would occur near

22:38

fault lines or wherever there's like

22:40

geoactivity occurring and

22:43

people would report those types of UFOs as like

22:45

balls of light in the sky. So

22:48

we know that certain things

22:50

cause us to

22:52

experience things differently. There's

22:55

other things as well besides like carbon

22:57

monoxide and radiation. There

22:59

was one of my other

23:01

mentors, Lloyd Auerbach, who's a parapsychologist in

23:04

California, had this really amazing case I

23:06

always refer to with on

23:08

a podcast. But it was almost like the

23:10

perfect scientifically designed haunted

23:13

house. But this architect had

23:15

kind of built this house and

23:17

he kind of did a few different things. He was

23:19

experimenting with his architecture, I guess. And

23:22

this couple had finally moved into

23:24

this house, but they started to

23:26

experience all kinds of what

23:29

they thought was paranormal activity. They

23:31

were reporting balls of light floating in the

23:33

air, furniture in

23:35

the walls spontaneously catching fire,

23:38

one room that was freezing cold compared to

23:40

the rest of the house. Another

23:44

room where they would walk in and they'd

23:46

feel sick to their stomach. And

23:48

when Lloyd and his parapsychologist

23:51

assistant went

23:53

and investigated, they found a whole bunch

23:55

of issues with the house. So one

23:58

of the issues was that the new subdivision was built

24:00

on a landfill. So the balls

24:04

of light that they were experiencing was

24:07

actually a lot of static electricity mixed

24:09

with methane gas that was coming up

24:12

through the ground. And that's

24:14

what was causing the sparks and the

24:16

fires to break out. The

24:18

room that was ice cold when they

24:21

called in a surveyor, found out

24:23

that there was running water underneath

24:25

the house, which has been associated

24:27

to people experiencing haunting activity. But

24:29

the running water was the reason

24:31

why the room temperature was very

24:34

different than the rest of the house. The

24:36

room that they reported where they would walk into

24:38

and not feel very well. There

24:42

was a lot of things that were uneven in that

24:44

room, the flooring was uneven, the

24:47

design of the room was uneven.

24:49

So it was messing with their

24:51

equilibrium in their

24:53

head, the fluid in the

24:55

brain, which was same as if you

24:57

got onto a circus ride. I can't do

24:59

those anymore without gravel at

25:02

this age. But when you get

25:04

on those types of rides, because

25:06

it's uneven terrain, the fluid in

25:09

between your ears kind of move and it caused

25:11

you to feel nauseous and feel off. So

25:14

they were able to get them out of the lease.

25:17

The landlord didn't want to let them out of the

25:19

lease because they had just signed it, but they basically

25:22

threatened them to go to the

25:24

city to report all these kind

25:26

of non-code

25:30

violations they found with the house. The

25:33

owner decided to let them out of

25:35

the house. So there's a multitude

25:37

of things that can cause

25:39

people to experience hauntings. And that's

25:41

what a true paranormal

25:43

investigator looks for. You come into

25:45

these cases with

25:47

that mind like, okay, what is

25:50

occurring in this location that

25:52

is causing this experience? And you try

25:54

and rule that out first before jumping

25:57

to, you know, just, oh,

25:59

this, this. house is haunted or this

26:01

location is haunted. Let

26:04

me ask you this. When we have

26:06

these sort of things going on and

26:08

the environment is like this, there's obviously

26:10

some elements that can be easily explained.

26:12

Water running underneath the house, that explains

26:14

the cold spots. And some of

26:16

it you can easily connect the dots. Some of it

26:19

though I do wonder, does

26:21

having some of these things open

26:23

up a portal ever or not

26:25

portal but something? Our

26:27

senses may be more is the

26:30

correct word to experience things that

26:32

are indeed paranormal that we otherwise

26:34

wouldn't experience without the aid of

26:37

some of these outside

26:39

factors. Well,

26:43

I would say yes,

26:45

certain conditions

26:47

I think would

26:50

make people more susceptible to seeing

26:52

stuff. I know for example, when

26:55

your arasibility is low, so

26:57

when you're tired or you're just about

27:02

ready to fall asleep, our minds

27:04

are pretty relaxed and there's

27:07

been lots of parapsychological

27:11

studies that have been done which show

27:13

people tend to score higher on results

27:16

with extra sensory perception

27:18

and psychic abilities when

27:20

their mind is at a relaxed state.

27:25

So I definitely think that

27:27

you have to look at each location

27:31

separately and kind of see what's the

27:33

area. The other thing as well that's

27:36

interesting that we, your

27:39

certainty a lot of research pop up

27:41

on is infosound. Infosound that we cannot

27:43

physically hear as humans but

27:46

exists in the environment and we know

27:48

that certain infosound

27:50

have also caused people to feel

27:52

eerie, feel like they're being watched,

27:54

possibly even see something like a

27:56

shadow out of the corner of

27:58

their eye. There is

28:01

technology that exists to monitor

28:03

for infra-sound. We

28:05

purchased one, but we haven't had

28:08

time to play around with it. I

28:12

know there was one case where it

28:16

detected the elevator from

28:18

the building next to the house. There was

28:20

an apartment building next to this house that

28:22

was experiencing some paranormal activity.

28:24

They were able to pick up

28:26

infra-sound coming from the apartment building

28:29

because the elevator was really old

28:31

and it wasn't in

28:33

its best operating condition. It was causing

28:36

an excessive amount

28:38

of infra-sound, which could have

28:41

possibly contributed to the haunting. Some

28:45

things in the paranormal, that's why it's the paranormal,

28:48

you simply can't explain. They

28:52

couldn't confirm 100% that the

28:54

infra-sound was causing that issue,

28:56

but it certainly raised a

28:58

red flag. Another example of

29:01

things that we can't prove are

29:03

electronic voice phenomena, for example, because

29:06

there's four different theories to

29:08

what an EVP actually is. One

29:11

theory is that it's audio-paradolia, so

29:13

similar to visual-paradolia,

29:16

like I explained earlier, that when

29:18

you hear something that's nonsensical, the

29:20

brain is

29:22

designed to try and make sense of it. So I

29:26

always find if someone gets you

29:28

to listen to an EVP and they tell you what

29:30

they think it says, now that's all you can hear.

29:32

But I find more times than not when somebody's like,

29:35

can you listen to this EVP and tell me what

29:37

you hear? A lot

29:40

of times, unless it's extremely clear, there

29:42

are some very clear EVPs. A lot

29:44

of times you're like, yeah, I hear

29:46

something, I hear that voice, but I

29:48

cannot tell what it's saying. And

29:50

it's not until a person tells you what it is,

29:52

then all of a sudden, that's all you can hear.

29:55

The other theory is obviously the one that we

29:57

all want is that it's a disc hermitant. to

30:00

be trying to communicate with us through a

30:03

recording device. The

30:06

other one which I have actually

30:08

experienced on a case

30:11

was what they

30:13

call crossover communication. There

30:15

was a couple, two guys talking back

30:17

and forth on Facebook Messenger, but they

30:20

were using the audio instead

30:22

of typing out. And

30:24

all of a sudden when one guy was responding

30:26

to his friend, this other

30:28

voice popped up on the recording.

30:31

And so they had come across our website and sent

30:33

us the recordings and just asked us if we could

30:36

look into see what this is. And

30:38

they thought it was kind of strange. And

30:40

it was not your typical EVP or typical

30:42

EVP is quiet, it's almost like a war.

30:46

This one was like very loud, very prominent.

30:49

I had a friend that had just

30:51

gotten out of tech crimes with the RCMP and

30:54

they analyzed all the digital evidence

30:57

for the police.

30:59

It could be drug trafficking, cell phone

31:01

information, it could be fraud,

31:04

investigation through computers. So

31:06

I sent him the audio clip and I asked

31:08

him if he could analyze it for me. So

31:10

he was able to isolate both voices and run

31:12

it through some electronic software, engineering software. The

31:16

best guess that he could come with

31:18

was come up with was that somehow

31:21

another communication through Facebook had

31:24

been recorded on these guys' conversation.

31:30

And it kind of made sense that explanation

31:32

just because like I said, it didn't sound

31:34

like a typical EVP. It was just too

31:36

prominent. But it was some

31:38

sort of electronic interference that had occurred,

31:41

which is another theory for the

31:43

EVPs is that you're picking up,

31:45

not so much now with

31:47

portable phones, but cell phones and other

31:49

things in the area might record

31:52

on your recording device. And

31:54

then the last theory with

31:56

EVPs, which I also know somebody

31:58

that personally had this happened to them. It's

32:01

Michelle DeRoche. She runs the

32:03

Outer Realm podcast at Toronto

32:05

with Amelia Passano. So she

32:08

was on an investigation once

32:10

and her and her

32:12

tech person had gone to the house to

32:14

interview the homeowners to get she'll interview

32:16

to see whether or not they

32:18

had enough information to conduct a full

32:20

scale investigation. But that evening

32:22

when Michelle went to her house, her daughter

32:25

was at home sick with her husband. So

32:27

she was really worried about her daughter. And

32:29

while they were doing the interview, you know,

32:32

Michelle was asking questions collecting information

32:34

from the homeowners. And

32:37

then they went home and her

32:39

tech guy downloaded the statement and was

32:41

transcribing it for her. And while he

32:44

was transcribing it, he could hear an

32:47

unnatural flow of conversation occur on the

32:50

recording, he could hear the Michelle

32:52

ask you question, the homeowner was

32:54

responding to the question, midway through responding to

32:57

the question, all of a sudden he can

32:59

hear Michelle blurred out and

33:01

say, I got to get home.

33:03

My daughter's really sick. And

33:06

it didn't interrupt the flow

33:08

of conversation or anything like that,

33:10

like it would, because if somebody

33:12

just blurted that out while they're telling a story,

33:14

you would stop speaking and probably say, jeez, well,

33:17

maybe you should get home to your daughter or,

33:19

or whatever, or acknowledge it

33:21

at some point and it

33:23

wasn't acknowledged. And the tech guy that was

33:25

sitting next to Michelle while the interview was

33:28

being done, never heard her say that. So

33:30

he thought that was strange. So he called her up and

33:33

questioned her about it and said, you know, during the

33:36

interview, I heard this. And she said,

33:38

geez, she's like, I was thinking that a lot while

33:40

I was at the house. But I

33:42

obviously didn't say it out loud, you know, because

33:44

that would be rude and, and

33:47

whatnot. And she's trying to

33:49

find the recording for me. She said it's

33:51

on an old cassette tape, but

33:53

I want to use it during some of

33:55

my parapsychological lectures as like an example. But

33:58

that's the fourth theory. on EBP's is

34:01

that it's a telepathy being

34:03

recorded from either the investigators, the

34:05

homeowners, or even somebody that's just

34:08

in the general area. So

34:10

we know that EBP's exist, kind of

34:13

cycling back to the point of these

34:15

four theories, we know that EBP's exist,

34:18

but we don't know exactly what they

34:20

are because there's, there's

34:22

four examples that

34:24

I've experienced either personally or

34:27

through close friends that

34:29

have all recorded an

34:31

EBP but for different reasons. When

34:35

it comes to EBP's and the, not

34:39

only that, but also let's kind of

34:41

expand this a little bit beyond just

34:43

EBP's because obviously some can be very

34:46

compelling. Another thing that a lot of

34:48

people have been using and utilizing is

34:50

things like a ghost box where it's

34:52

a series of sounds that

34:54

come through a radio scanning something and

34:57

sometimes it can come across as fairly

34:59

logical. Sometimes it's really you just caught

35:02

a DJ saying a word or a

35:04

commercial that kind of makes sense, but

35:07

there is sometimes a specific sound to

35:09

some of those noises

35:12

when they come through. What's your thoughts

35:14

on that and is that an EBP

35:16

of some sort? Yeah.

35:21

Yeah. And I think I know kind of where

35:23

you're getting at with that. I

35:26

do have a spirit box, for example,

35:28

which uses AM

35:30

FM radio stations and it cycles it

35:32

through and you

35:35

can ask questions and sometimes you get

35:37

word responses and exactly what you said.

35:40

My only experience with those devices is

35:42

the words that I hear I can

35:44

tell are clearly coming from the DJ

35:46

at the radio station or the news

35:49

anchor. But I have

35:53

seen a couple of videos

35:56

of some impressive ones where

35:59

it's not just a one. word answer. It's like

36:01

a four or five word answer and

36:03

it makes complete sense. So

36:08

I don't and I do know from

36:10

other things there was a great documentary.

36:13

It's quite old now. I can't

36:16

even think of the name of it. It's at all but

36:19

it

36:21

was about an Italian guy that could talk to

36:24

go through a radio and

36:26

he had removed the receiver

36:29

and transmitter from the radio but voices

36:31

were still coming out of it. So

36:33

we know that you know spirits can

36:35

use communication devices to communicate

36:39

to us through it. I actually had a case

36:41

I was telling you earlier where I wrote my first

36:43

book Evil and Exeter The

36:46

Haunting in Rhode Island. Spirit

36:49

would besides

36:51

manipulating the TV turning it on and

36:53

off by itself and all that stuff

36:55

had spoken into the

36:57

homeowner cell phone using

37:00

Siri and had left a

37:02

message for her. So we know

37:04

that you know ghosts can

37:06

use electronic

37:08

devices to communicate. I do think that

37:11

for the most parts I

37:13

find those tools a little bit too

37:17

noisy and

37:19

I personally stick to your tape recorders,

37:23

your digital recorders for

37:25

those but I mean I do think that

37:28

they would work in the right condition. I

37:31

don't find them to be the best tool.

37:33

I've never had much success with it.

37:35

In fact I was at the fortress

37:37

of Lewisburg in Cape Breton. I was

37:39

asked to help out a local paranormal group

37:42

to do a paranormal lecture out there and

37:45

I had brought one Spirit Fox just to

37:47

show people how loud they are and whatnot

37:49

but it was

37:51

actually so far out in remote that there

37:53

was no radio stations it could pick up

37:55

so the device itself couldn't even work anyway

37:58

because it was so remote it had to be. had

38:00

no AM FM stations to kind of tap into. So

38:04

again, it depends on your location, your conditions

38:07

and your environment. But

38:09

I do think, you know, again, I do

38:12

think that they

38:14

can work in certain circumstances. The

38:17

apps I'm a little bit more skeptical of, I

38:19

know, the same group that I helped

38:22

out, they use, I think

38:24

it's called audio, audio

38:26

fox is the app, I think they use.

38:29

But what it does is you basically ask

38:31

questions, and all of a sudden, it'll just

38:33

kind of like randomly like shout out words.

38:36

But I don't,

38:39

I don't find those ones reliable. And I'm

38:41

not a software engineer. But I think if

38:44

you could get somebody to go through those

38:46

apps and kind of reverse engineer them, you

38:48

might see that a lot of them are

38:50

designed for entertainment purposes only. You know,

38:54

obviously, somebody's downloading a ghost app. So

38:56

it could be pre programmed with words

38:58

associated to hauntings and ghosts and demons

39:01

and things like that. So a little

39:03

bit more skeptical of the the apps.

39:07

Again, I kind of prefer the old

39:09

the old style, you know, go with

39:11

your digital recorder. If you have

39:15

a tape recorder, that still uses

39:17

cassettes, you know, use that as

39:19

well. But

39:22

yeah, I mean, they're all tools that are

39:24

available for sure. That

39:26

wraps up the first part of our conversation with

39:28

Elliot van Dusen in part two, what was happening

39:30

in Rhode Island at a home that shocked Elliot?

39:33

What personally happened to Elliot and

39:35

his family when they encountered a

39:37

demonic entity? Has there ever been a time

39:39

where Elliot felt that it may be time to walk

39:42

away from the supernatural for safety? Those

39:45

questions and much more in part two. Until

39:47

next time for the great talks. I'm Tony

39:49

Brewski. Thanks for listening. For

40:02

nearly four decades Jmp Security Solutions has

40:04

provided projection for homes and businesses I

40:06

know first hand I'm just Beckman and

40:08

with my wife Kim we started Changes

40:11

Kurdish listen to our attention to detail

40:13

service. After the sale on product knowledge

40:15

or the foundation of our success saved

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his curious routinely been recognized as the

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best or Madison for security companies. We

40:22

expect that trends continue as the next

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generation, our son Jeffrey takes over as

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President and of project. What is valuable

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you take a scary.com. Era's

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is another different single. Is a vote

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