Guest host Fabiola Cineas talks with author, lawyer, and organizer Derecka Purnell about her recent book Becoming Abolitionists. They discuss Derecka's journey to defending the idea of police abolition, and what that position really entails. They explore questions about the historical and social role of policing in society, how to imagine a future where we radically rethink our system of criminal justice, and how we can acknowledge and incorporate current data about crime — while still rethinking our inherited assumptions about police.This was originally released in Jan. 2022 as an episode of Vox Conversations.

Host: Fabiola Cineas (@FabiolaCineas), reporter, Vox.comGuest: Derecka Purnell (@dereckapurnell), authorReferences: 

Becoming Abolitionists: Police, Protests, and the Pursuit of Freedom by Derecka Purnell (Astra House; 2021)

Police shootings database 2015-2023 (Washington Post)

The Black Jacobins: Toussaint L'Ouverture and the San Domingo Revolution by C.L.R. James (Vintage; 1989)

Black Reconstruction in America 1860–1880 by W.E.B. Du Bois (1935)

"One American city's model of policing reform means building 'social currency'" by Nathan Layne (June 12, 2020; Reuters)

"The Camden Police Department is Not a Model for Policing in the Post-George Floyd Era" by Brendan McQuade (June 12, 2020; The Appeal)

"Murder Rose by Almost 30% in 2020. It's Rising at a Slower Rate in 2021" by Jeff Asher (Sept. 22, 2021; New York Times)

Enjoyed this episode? Rate The Gray Area ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts.Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of The Gray Area by subscribing in your favorite podcast app.Support The Gray Area by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcastsThis episode was made by: 

Producer: Erikk Geannikis

Engineers: Patrick Boyd & Paul Robert Mounsey

Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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