0:00

net zero, carbon emissions, zero

0:02

racial wealth gap, zero poverty

0:05

those are ambitious goals

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and to help reached the world needs to take

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action together cities, committed

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1 trillion dollars in sustainable finance

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by 2030 to facilitate innovative

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solutions like renewable energy and

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clean technology and provide access

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to essential services like education

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health care and affordable housing there are

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also helping close the racial wealth gap

0:27

and increase economic mobility in

0:29

the us it takes everything to

0:31

reach europe for the love of making

0:33

a difference

0:42

how do we live in

0:44

us and dick

0:50

i'm sure nilly and i'm your host for

0:52

box conversations

1:03

i ask myself a version of this question

1:05

all the time like , else

1:07

i want to be as authentic

1:10

as i can be to the problem

1:12

is that authenticity is that big

1:15

fuzzy word and a sort of thing

1:17

you hear thing self help be ted

1:20

talks about how to be your true

1:23

self to be ourselves

1:25

to confidently be ourselves and to dream

1:27

the dreams come with

1:28

the your most authentic cel always

1:31

follow my inner insane the

1:33

myself

1:36

i don't find that stuff fair use i

1:39

never have

1:41

but the instinct to live a more authentic

1:44

life the choose our values

1:46

and lived them honestly that's important

1:49

and worth thinking for

1:52

though i was delighted to come across a new

1:54

book called how to be authentic by

1:56

the philosopher and writer sky cleary

1:59

what i

1:59

love about this book is that it's really

2:02

a study of existentialism and

2:04

it's practical significance today

2:07

existential isn't was the school

2:09

of thought that arose in postwar europe

2:12

and it emphasized human

2:14

freedom and our responsibility

2:16

to create ourselves every day

2:18

through the choices we make

2:21

clear , wrestles with this question

2:24

of authenticity through the eyes of

2:26

simone de beauvoir one of the

2:28

great twentieth century philosophers

2:30

and a remarkable woman who was very

2:32

much ahead of her time time

2:35

in the book cleary uses her own

2:37

life and relationships to explore

2:39

how to put was ideas into

2:41

practice into , cleary

2:44

onto the show to talk about

2:46

was philosophy of freedom and

2:48

authenticity and how it can help us

2:50

navigate the challenges of love

2:52

and marriage and parenthood without

2:55

sacrificing all the things that

2:57

make life purposeful in the first

3:04

cleary welcome to the show

3:07

shine thank you for having me

3:10

authenticity is such a loaded

3:13

the ambiguous term

3:15

the and

3:16

you seem to think we're confused about

3:18

what it means or what

3:20

it ought to me so i wanted

3:22

to start there

3:24

what does it mean for

3:26

you

3:27

the be authentic

3:29

the coming authentic for

3:32

some and of why is creating

3:34

your own essence so

3:37

often we hear authenticity as

3:39

you a process of finding yourself and

3:41

and being yourself whereas

3:44

this perspective this about

3:46

not about not yourself because there is

3:49

no

3:49

awesome song or fixed

3:52

print weekend yourself that you need to uncover

3:55

but rather authenticity

3:57

is authenticity process of creating

3:59

the

4:01

though it's about exercising your freedom

4:03

and understanding what's

4:06

eating

4:06

then on current shoes and

4:08

looking for ways he might be able to push back

4:11

against your choices and shaping

4:13

your existence

4:14

and what's important also here is

4:16

an ocean

4:18

to city being a process so

4:20

it's a continuous process of of self

4:22

creation and and self renewal

4:24

let's be real here

4:26

most people are faking this

4:28

right you think it's actually quite rare to

4:30

confront someone or meet someone who's truly

4:33

living an authentic

4:35

life in that way

4:37

how do we know that really like

4:39

at the he caught know whether someone

4:41

is creating themselves

4:43

in authentic ways it's partly it's

4:46

an individual process of reflecting

4:49

on the choices were making

4:51

and assessing the pressures around

4:53

us and understanding is these

4:56

choices that were making are truly

4:59

, result of our free choice but

5:01

also that's really hard to judge

5:04

whether someone else is doing that

5:06

but your height sit there is

5:08

a lot of and is superficial

5:11

notions of often

5:12

the city

5:14

you know it's a bus lead like

5:16

leadership or so

5:17

yeah

5:18

and one of the reasons i started

5:20

to look into this was this mantra

5:22

just your of and i'm like okay what

5:25

does that mean what is your true self

5:27

you know how do you find it what does that

5:29

even look like and suits you be yourself

5:32

through authenticity is

5:35

definitely a sort of an introspective process

5:37

but also an extra especially

5:39

if process as as engaging

5:41

in the wow

5:43

you think of authenticity as a poetic

5:45

quest to the the phrase from your but

5:48

the very existential

5:50

most idea that we

5:52

don't discover ourselves we make ourselves

5:55

why do you think it's so important

5:58

to remember our

6:00

identity is insects

6:02

that were always in this state of

6:04

are coming

6:06

into horror as existential

6:08

philosophy is that existence

6:10

precedes essence so

6:12

the idea there is that we exist

6:15

best were thrown into the world

6:17

and then we

6:19

create truly become and so authenticity

6:23

is what happens when we are

6:25

able to actively currencies

6:28

our freedom were always

6:30

always are always growing are

6:32

ways stretching beyond

6:34

the stats of our existence and wanting

6:36

to do that is what makes us human

6:39

when we talk about a painting it's like okay

6:41

there's a fix seem like a static

6:43

object that we can refer to it's

6:45

but when it comes to humans

6:48

we're not like a ping scene because

6:50

were always growing and and becoming more

6:52

than we are where

6:54

the some of our past actions we

6:56

are also the choices that when

6:58

making in the presence and were

7:01

also erin and sons

7:03

and goals went we are how

7:05

we stretch ourselves in

7:06

the future molson look like

7:09

when we refuse to make ourselves

7:11

in that way when we

7:13

run away from our responsibility

7:15

to choose

7:18

who and what we are you mean is that

7:20

word someone like beauvoir and other

7:22

existential us would call living

7:25

in bad faith where we

7:27

just kind of step into

7:29

roles that have been sighted

7:32

for us and we just embraced him as

7:34

though there are own in order

7:36

to not have to take on this

7:39

person of , deciding

7:41

for ourselves who we are because that's really scary

7:44

i think for a lot of people

7:46

that's of people order

7:47

the a scary but it's also

7:50

excited and exhilarate

7:52

yeah

7:53

yeah you're absolutely right about the

7:55

nuts and of leaning into

7:57

awesome

7:58

the and seizing offering

7:59

that you and escape from

8:02

being a sense determining

8:05

subject he is bad faith

8:07

which is pretty much the same as in author

8:09

the city

8:10

and the risk is that is where

8:13

not exercising our freedom

8:15

that returning see i

8:18

see the objects that you know just

8:20

boeing with the flow where being pushed

8:22

around by society or

8:25

pushed around by what everyone

8:27

else once for us the was

8:29

like to be human is too

8:32

french lungs that given

8:34

nice to transcend learn the facts about

8:36

live

8:37

is there an obvious example for you have

8:39

someone living in bad faith

8:41

in the i'm thinking of the famous example from

8:43

sartre where he's he's talking about

8:46

the waiter right is like sitting like sitting cafe

8:49

the deserving a waiter and he notices

8:52

that this guy is performing

8:54

this role he's speaking and

8:56

behaving and engaging in

8:59

the way the thinks he's supposed

9:01

to his ceiling or always

9:03

performing always role in

9:06

that sense it's a kind of bad says

9:09

the some other example that comes to mind pre of

9:11

just someone demonstrating

9:13

this kind of bad faith or someone running

9:16

away from discuss

9:18

imperative to be authentic

9:20

yeah i mean that lots of examples

9:23

of yeah i'm hesitant to put myself out and

9:25

that i disagree that in the book

9:27

do and i'll do it to door

9:29

and in fact this

9:32

anecdote is really one of the reasons

9:35

during me to exist eleven and

9:37

then exploring authenticity

9:40

i was feeling was lot of pressure

9:42

from society to be

9:44

a good girlfriend a good daughter

9:46

and good employees and i was

9:48

doing all the things that

9:51

things thought i was supposed to do doing

9:53

other things that things thought was supposed to make me it's

9:55

a good successful person i

9:58

was miserable

9:59

he

10:01

discovered existential philosophy especially simone

10:03

de beauvoir and realize that

10:06

wow okay i'm nuts reflecting

10:09

on my choices i'm not

10:12

seizing my freedom to

10:14

create the sort of person that i want

10:16

to become so i was in bad faith and

10:18

that bad faith was faith was was

10:20

of ignorance

10:21

yeah

10:21

what i also loved about simone de beauvoir

10:23

philosophy was that she had no played

10:26

stats

10:26

a person exists

10:28

the restrictions that stop

10:30

people from

10:32

doing authenticity and

10:34

it's important

10:35

the acknowledged on say we can to say oh if

10:37

someone's not exercising their freedom

10:39

then that's bad and

10:41

note we need to look at the situation

10:44

look at the context that they're operating yeah

10:46

in the book he talk a lot about

10:48

how we sleep our

10:51

freedom often by throwing

10:53

ourselves into these archetype all roles

10:55

and you're getting at that here right mother father

10:58

husband wife employees and

11:01

, think i understand the deeper point one

11:04

can be a mother or father and still live

11:06

in authentic lives but what happens

11:09

is we slide into these

11:11

roles and adopt a model given to

11:13

us by our culture or our society

11:16

but i guess i wonder what else

11:18

are we supposed to how do we embrace

11:20

our freedom and not fall into these pre programmed

11:23

roles i think we probably need models

11:25

we probably need guidance we probably need

11:28

the blueprints expecting people

11:31

to truly fashion themselves maybe

11:33

asking too much even

11:35

if that's a noble aspiration

11:38

anything

11:40

wonder what it's really important about authenticity

11:43

is holding ourselves in question

11:46

and thinking about are you

11:48

just sliding along rails

11:50

you just blindly plodding three

11:52

life fulfilling those roles

11:55

and it absolutely is difficult

11:58

to push back against also

12:00

acknowledge that you know a lot of people do

12:02

find fulfillment in

12:05

certain , like of of mother

12:07

wife husband husband

12:09

if you're only defining yourself

12:12

as a glass as an

12:14

attachment to maybe someone else

12:17

and not acknowledging the freedom

12:19

to

12:20

change in the future your freedom to

12:23

pursue your own goals if you're only pursuing

12:25

goal for everybody else is telling you

12:28

you can that's

12:30

possibly an indicator of bad thing maybe

12:33

myself back into the feel i should

12:35

get married i didn't have a child

12:38

ends of lot of slade

12:41

thought that they were authentic

12:43

possibilities for doing those things

12:45

as long as you live

12:47

a diversified nice and

12:49

don't like zip same yourself into

12:51

those roles and allow these and

12:54

ideals chew

12:55

the

13:08

the most interesting parts of queries

13:10

book or about our desire

13:13

for freedom collides with the

13:15

demands of love and relationships

13:28

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like dot l a b

15:50

why is probably best

15:52

known as the first philosopher to mainstream

15:55

this distinction oh really

15:57

unpack this distinction but

16:00

the insects

16:01

and gender why did she think

16:03

that distinction mattered and what did it

16:05

have to do what are notions

16:07

of freedom and authenticity

16:10

so what's interesting is that

16:12

technically but why didn't use the word gender

16:15

in the second sex but

16:17

split you're talking about his her t

16:19

idea that one isn't born

16:21

but rather a com a woman

16:24

yeah i'm how this is usually taken

16:26

to mean is that sex

16:29

is biological facts

16:31

gender for lack of lack better word better word

16:33

coming over

16:34

then he is socially

16:36

and culturally constructed and

16:38

the issue there is that

16:40

though so precedence to

16:43

, a socially acceptable

16:45

version of a woman or socially acceptable

16:47

version of a man our that usually

16:49

manifests is what way towards

16:51

becoming a woman or

16:53

woman becoming a man isn't

16:56

the rebels are now free choice as bad

16:59

as skyn it's about doing what we tells

17:01

doing what expected it as doing

17:04

what's rewarded not doing

17:06

lots punished for example

17:08

goals are often rewarded

17:11

for being the and obedient

17:13

whereas blaze are expected

17:15

to be strong and associates and

17:19

often we the in china rise

17:21

those six ways of thing the

17:24

problem is it these

17:27

the district ways of being hurt our

17:29

freedom and prevent us from expressing

17:31

ourselves in or

17:33

he cries

17:34

can we be authentic while still performing

17:37

are inherited gender roles in the

17:39

way you're describing or did beauvoir believed

17:41

you believe that authentic freedom

17:44

demands we throw off these

17:46

conventions

17:48

well to heart was interested

17:50

in getting rid of all

17:52

oppression so if

17:54

your performance of gender

17:57

is a result of being

17:59

afraid

17:59

to express yourself

18:02

or

18:02

the play and that's a problem

18:04

the why acknowledge those pressures and

18:07

she thought that you know it's really hard to

18:09

judge the choices

18:10

the people making which shouldn't judge

18:12

the choices people make

18:14

the her idea was that everybody

18:17

would be excellent

18:18

current freedom and we'd

18:20

all be able to teach ourselves into the

18:22

future i mean this as utopian

18:24

but you know her project

18:27

was getting rid of domination

18:29

and oppression so that we do have

18:31

more flexibility about

18:34

expressing ourselves

18:35

why did poof was think and

18:37

i'm quoting you here that being

18:39

in love for a woman

18:42

the always rest tipping into a state

18:44

of fear pressure and

18:46

obligation

18:47

you're riding in the second sex in the nineteen

18:50

forties and size and

18:52

he backed and things were different though as fuel

18:54

women in the workforce women had

18:57

spieler rights than they do now

18:59

in in some realms women weren't

19:01

allowed to establish credit they

19:03

weren't allowed to own property there

19:05

was no such thing as no fault divorce yet

19:08

and , have lost all these factors

19:10

as pushing women

19:13

in sue the confirm magic

19:15

trajectory of falling in love

19:17

finding the one getting married and living

19:19

happily ever after now

19:21

the problem with love is that

19:23

she saw love as saw love

19:26

to stability glove as

19:28

a means to marriage where

19:30

women

19:31

the be financially secure and

19:33

enjoying that we're not appreciating

19:35

love in itself love is

19:37

a means to another and

19:40

imagined authentic love

19:42

the be found

19:43

on the reciprocal the ignition of

19:46

to freedom

19:47

to one another

19:49

as individuals acknowledging

19:52

that each person has their own goals

19:55

and celebrating love

19:57

as something that doesn't necessarily

19:59

have to the to financial

20:01

stability so she wanted to free

20:03

love from the sun is

20:06

confines and to do that she

20:08

thought that's men and women

20:10

the needed to be free

20:12

you choose who they fall in

20:14

love with and free to leave

20:16

the romantic relationship

20:19

in ways that they choose

20:21

what does she think we owe are lovers

20:24

did you think we owe them anything

20:26

the iowa our mothers respects

20:28

we owe our mothers intersubjectivity

20:31

which is a term that

20:34

is she used to

20:36

describe that we acknowledge

20:38

that were subjects for ourselves and

20:40

other people or objects to us but

20:42

, other people as subjects and themselves

20:45

and were objects to them them

20:47

what this means is that we need

20:49

to acknowledge that

20:51

other people's lives are

20:54

as real and rich as

20:56

mine and that a choices a and

20:59

that's intersubjectivity

21:01

it's not just what we own mother's but

21:03

what we owe everyone that's the

21:06

key to ethical relationships

21:08

bubble one that's what love

21:10

is also based on

21:12

there's this question of levin sacrifice

21:14

that i kept thinking about read the book

21:16

and i really wanted to dig into a little bit

21:18

here to love

21:21

someone to truly love someone

21:23

i think is to surrender

21:25

some part of yourself to

21:27

care as much about another

21:29

person as you care about yourself

21:32

and maybe think that's wrong how

21:34

might that conflict

21:36

with this desire to

21:39

live in authentically surreal life

21:41

there's a conflict

21:43

i'm interested he misled he he's

21:45

surrender there you

21:47

decide to yeah that's you

21:49

know what it's you love someone

21:51

you need to give something of yourself

21:54

and i think that's not

21:56

where was coming from you know

21:59

and space and me on a

22:01

soulmate where you're lacking

22:03

in something and you find your other half and

22:05

together your fulfilled you

22:07

i blame plato and symposium say

22:10

that air stuff and either side

22:13

and you would jump at the time anyway

22:16

gonna fight night loves not like that because it's not

22:18

low

22:18

the weekend the completed and

22:21

you gotta be really careful if

22:23

you're surrendering yourself if what

22:25

you mean by surrender is

22:27

being vulnerable

22:29

absolutely being vulnerable

22:31

stink outta ten to another taking

22:34

a risk with another percent been

22:36

absolutely that's vital but he said

22:38

slide compromising yourself

22:40

or letting go of parts

22:43

of your

22:43

the existence or you're being

22:45

are important to you and

22:47

that's where it enters into problematic territory

22:50

and equip whole experience that probably

22:53

on both sides of it but the weekend to impose

22:55

our own expectations

22:57

on are lovers and

23:00

that is a failure to recognize their

23:02

freedom and their authenticity

23:05

why that is

23:07

one problem that you run into

23:09

with relationships is that

23:11

they so often become a desire to possess

23:14

another person and really to control

23:16

them

23:17

not for their sake but for our sake

23:19

the role they play

23:22

in our own identity in our own

23:24

life and when that happens

23:26

we get jealousy the get

23:29

resentment

23:31

and that on some level has

23:33

to lead to a clash of

23:35

mr obama says

23:37

love is renunciation of

23:39

all possession and all confusion

23:42

it affected your sharing sounds

23:44

send me a lot like jean paul sartre

23:47

perspective switches that

23:49

were always caught in that this

23:51

vicious cycle and domination

23:53

and possession and submission and we're always

23:56

trying to merge

23:58

with another person and

24:00

why she says that's

24:03

one of the projects as authentic

24:05

loving is to overcome that

24:07

desire to console the other person

24:09

to challenge acts

24:12

impulses towards jealousy

24:14

and seat thought that this problem

24:16

was wanting to wanting com

24:18

whole with the other or become one and

24:21

she's like know what we need

24:23

to do for loving authentically

24:25

is to act now

24:26

lance the other in

24:28

our have enough to acknowledge

24:30

the old clarity and to find

24:32

joy in the difference between us

24:35

it's a beautiful idea i think he

24:37

gets hard and practice and bourgeois

24:39

as you write about she had this i

24:41

guess kinda weird relationship with

24:44

sean paul sartre the in the famous french philosopher

24:46

who just mentioned you know and where ,

24:48

two of them agreed to be each

24:50

other's main lover but

24:52

they weren't monogamous they hooked up with other people but

24:54

they were always kind of committed to kind of staying kind each

24:56

other's orbits was like orbits non marriage

24:59

a non what we would call today i

25:01

guess and open relationships

25:04

did that work out

25:05

for her did she feel free

25:08

in that are did that become complicated

25:11

he always insisted that

25:13

the relationship was freely chosen

25:16

but it doesn't mean it was without it challenges

25:19

i agree to be prime to one another

25:22

but they would have contingent

25:24

of secondary lovers and

25:26

, lot of those other mothers were

25:28

hurt through their relationships

25:30

with was knowledge that a hurt people

25:33

and felt remorse in a way that a national

25:35

stature didn't think we

25:37

need to also look at

25:39

how they live their relationship so

25:42

you can live together they gave

25:44

each other a lot of space they had

25:46

this relationship of

25:48

hence companionship and

25:50

internecine that also

25:52

giving each other their freedom and

25:55

you know they were

25:57

the internet for their entire lives

25:59

and

25:59

the been very together in paris is month on

26:02

the cemetery

26:03

hundred eighty writing a book you say marriage

26:05

is a situation that necessarily

26:08

creates a tension between being for

26:10

others and being for oneself coming

26:13

authentic calls for a balance between

26:15

them both

26:16

there's no easy way to live in that tension

26:19

there will be moments where if something has to

26:21

give like sometimes

26:22

it really is zero some or my just

26:25

the wrong

26:27

about that

26:28

you're not wrong it is absolutely

26:30

always attention and there's

26:33

wave anxiety inherent

26:35

in relationship

26:37

yes or sometimes we think about

26:39

looking to stay as oh it's just it's

26:41

been for myself whereas before

26:44

like know it's our

26:46

coexistence with other people means

26:48

that were always in relationship

26:51

with others unless you coffin be a hermit

26:53

and then you're in relationship with nature in the wild

26:56

costs to live in society

26:58

is too fast

27:00

enough

27:01

they don't is concerned

27:02

constantly saying they out is pursuing

27:05

our projects and our goals and

27:08

bumping into other people who are

27:10

trying to do the same as well

27:12

and you're right in a marriage is

27:14

a culmination of a really

27:17

intense height of tension

27:19

between being for yourself and being for others

27:22

and the was concern was

27:24

that yeah in marriage quite

27:26

often be cleansed as such a

27:28

big ten cents austin it's

27:31

the woman who slides ensued

27:33

been for others and it's a man who slides

27:35

and said being forced himself and

27:37

so women often take that secondary

27:40

positions and of her quotes is it

27:42

is said marriage diminishes man

27:45

the and true that will make

27:47

always destroys a woman because

27:50

marriage is a very old institution

27:53

and there's so many very

27:55

strong role that we

27:57

all fully

27:57

we fight into and in fact

27:59

performance pretty much against marriage

28:02

know why she didn't marry herself up and

28:04

say she said she thought marriage

28:07

is the biggest first of all because

28:09

it was you know structure that have created

28:11

by man for men and encourage

28:14

women to and if submit

28:18

i wonder what you think

28:19

she wouldn't said about marriage today

28:22

the she writing and inedible twentieth

28:24

century and france the

28:27

world is very different

28:29

today certainly still so

28:31

hide in a bazillion different ways

28:33

but it is the a friend then

28:35

can i mean there's even a character and one of her plays

28:38

that says at the unquote all commitment

28:41

is a prison i don't

28:43

have that the your view i'm gonna be careful to

28:45

not conflate what was thought

28:48

with what you think that

28:51

seems not to me are certainly seems heavy

28:54

handed i don't know what you think about

28:56

that you think that our our commitment is a prison

28:58

idea

28:58

not i didn't think that all commitment

29:01

is a prison were defined by

29:03

our commitments me by defined by how

29:05

we launch ourselves into the world

29:08

and in an odi blah was extremely

29:10

skeptical of marriage as you point out

29:13

she any in the second sex she

29:15

does i acknowledge possibilities

29:18

for

29:18

authentic marriage and she says the

29:20

ideal would be that each human

29:23

being perfectly self sufficient

29:26

be attached to another by the free

29:28

consent of bell love alone

29:30

though was she saying is that

29:32

sure you can

29:34

hunter ensue union

29:36

it's it's between free and consenting

29:39

adults and acknowledge

29:42

the and you already have a relationship

29:44

and not for back

29:46

so hide ensued the traditional

29:49

ideas of marriage where women

29:51

are sort of pushed to do most of the house lack

29:54

in men take on the career

29:56

and women take a backseat when children

29:58

arrive in this

29:59

oh marriage was so heavy

30:03

with his baggage as tradition

30:05

that there wasn't there wasn't of hype

30:07

for it but it doesn't mean she said away

30:09

could never beat

30:11

hancock do you think it still loaded down

30:13

in the same way sir do you think per analysis

30:15

would be fundamentally different if

30:17

she were to make it today

30:19

things are changing and i mean it's easier

30:22

to get divorced it's like we have no fault

30:24

divorce now i mean it's so easy to get

30:26

the hate that it is to get divorced but

30:28

i still find myself sometimes sliding

30:31

and see you know traditional roles

30:33

and i catch myself and it's catch struggle

30:35

and it's takes it lot of reflecting

30:37

on it takes a lot of talking

30:39

with my partner and teaching my son

30:42

that's you know it's not my job to clean up

30:44

after innocent my job to do always the hundred

30:46

and it's and this is where that

30:48

becomes important as what sort of role

30:50

model and we're setting for our children

30:53

and army reinforcing these gender

30:55

stereotypes so yeah i think

30:57

it's a lot better and especially since more

30:59

women are working now and

31:02

women are accessing better korea's

31:04

even know the still a dos

31:06

of women in leadership in politics

31:09

and organizations but you know there

31:11

are some improvements for shot

31:13

you mention becoming a parent now i'm

31:15

a new parent of a sign that just turned three

31:18

years old about a month ago and

31:21

the book you talk about the experience of having

31:23

a child and becoming apparent as

31:26

or may have my thoughts on this do you think the demands

31:28

of parenting supplied

31:30

with the demands are conflict with the demands

31:33

of living and authentic and free

31:35

hi

31:37

master conflates and

31:39

often having children dance

31:41

and foods

31:43

encoding faction all encompassing

31:45

endeavor an impact in

31:47

the second sex improvised chapter

31:49

on motherhood she spends the first

31:51

ten pages defending

31:53

contraception and abortion

31:56

because she thought into the choice into bring

31:58

a new human into the way

31:59

yeah it's huge decision

32:02

and it's a huge commitment and

32:04

to be

32:05

forced into that against your will

32:07

is a travesty against

32:10

humanity and she realized

32:12

that often child rearing

32:14

often still full of cinema that there and

32:16

were saying this in the statistics that

32:18

women are still doing the bulk as

32:21

a child care and shows

32:34

okay after one last break

32:37

we talk about how big was philosophy

32:39

influenced her own friendships and

32:42

, we can learn from that stick with

32:44

us

32:54

net zero carbon emissions the

32:57

euro racial wealth gap zero

32:59

poverty those are ambitious goals

33:01

and to help reached him the world needs to take

33:04

action together cities

33:06

committed one trillion dollars and sustainable

33:08

finance by twenty thirty to facilitate

33:11

innovative solutions like renewable energy

33:13

and clean technology that

33:15

, will help provide access to essential

33:17

services like education healthcare

33:20

and affordable housing there are also helping

33:22

close the racial wealth gap and increase

33:24

economic mobility in the u s s

33:27

that's just a just having

33:29

ambitious goals is what helps the world make

33:31

meaningful progress and it's going

33:33

to take all of us working together to

33:35

make sure we continue to move in the right direction

33:38

because to address these worldwide problems

33:40

it's going to take worldwide action

33:43

it takes everything to reach zero for

33:45

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33:47

of progress learn more at city dot

33:50

com slash e f g

33:58

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34:27

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34:57

the thing the balkans and the gestern at

34:59

in this conversation is that romantic love

35:01

is authentic when it is based

35:03

on this appreciation for enter

35:08

your friendships my opponent number or something

35:10

or

35:11

though it was a book that came out

35:13

just recently called the inseparable

35:15

it was simone de beauvoir novel that

35:17

she didn't publish during her lifetime

35:19

she wrote about his friendship with

35:22

her best childhood friends with

35:24

as with look like

35:25

yeah and it's really story

35:28

of authentic friendship

35:30

and creating an into subject

35:32

the relations and

35:34

while we're

35:36

really taken read

35:37

that and they were best

35:39

friends at school of size as i had

35:42

other commitments and simone de

35:44

beauvoir really was struggling

35:46

with that this friendship is an

35:48

equal like it's not equal in terms of the

35:51

feelings people are putting into it

35:53

then

35:54

what she preferred it was

35:57

it's authentic friendship

35:59

has to be

35:59

based on feelings that afraid

36:02

though if a lot started to

36:05

try and manipulate zaza or

36:07

to seduce her into having a more

36:09

indepth relationships in she would

36:11

as and of disk

36:12

keep this in for subjectivity

36:16

why respected zaza

36:18

as way of being in the world and

36:21

stars are respectable cosplay

36:23

of being in the world and stay created

36:26

this the into subjective

36:28

relationship where they should

36:30

the very intimate secrets and

36:33

for example gaza confided in beauvoir

36:35

that she'd slice to split open with

36:37

an axe to get out of obligation

36:40

and would mix white wine with her coffee

36:43

in the morning just to get through the day so

36:45

dismissive really insane

36:47

that kind of friendship and

36:49

one lasted twelve years until

36:52

does untied and hoover

36:54

credits this relationship with

36:57

firing her philosophy of friendship

37:00

and seem authentic friendship

37:02

as respect for one another freedom

37:05

and spin vulnerable with one

37:07

another and sharing

37:09

confident says but also having

37:11

that's really that's friendship based on respect

37:14

i mean this is something i do love

37:16

about who bought me listeners of the show will

37:18

now at the deep affection for camo

37:21

i wrote my dissertation on camo

37:23

and i've done a couple of episodes about

37:25

can be on this very show and

37:28

i think can move was a better artist

37:31

then beauvoir but i think but was a better philosopher

37:33

then cameo but they both

37:36

share i think the same interests me can move

37:38

always rejected the existential flavor but

37:41

provided , of lump them under it anyway

37:43

and with from good justification

37:46

but one thing they both share and it's really

37:48

comes through in your final chapter and rebellion

37:50

which is really about politics and the responsibilities

37:52

we have to engage as they both

37:54

really thought seriously about

37:57

what we owe other people and they both

37:59

believe that to choose life to value

38:01

your own freedom is at the same time to

38:03

value everyone else that

38:06

entails commitments and responsibilities

38:08

not just yourself but to other people and

38:10

living in this tension were you trying to pursue

38:13

your own individual projects and be authentic

38:15

see yourself but you're also embedded

38:17

in this world where you are dependent on other

38:19

people other people depending on you

38:22

and you have responsibilities to that

38:24

extent outside of yourself it's just really homered

38:26

it's really hard and a word

38:28

that why used a lot

38:30

was ambiguity i think that's right we

38:33

are living in this tension we're we're trying to be true

38:35

to ourselves other

38:38

human beings and does not

38:40

blueprint that you it's just while

38:43

yet to get up every day and day and and act

38:45

as best you can and sometimes you

38:47

choose wisely and sometimes you'll choose

38:49

for labor you can get up the next

38:52

day and intuit again

38:54

yeah and a full the was failure is a fact

38:56

of life but that's not an excuse

38:58

not to act naturally

39:00

games

39:01

and you see where the

39:03

opinion that we all make mistakes

39:06

that related no mistake

39:08

big enough but you can't get up the next day

39:10

and change and take your

39:12

life into a new direction and accept

39:14

your responsibilities but

39:17

, you know her concern waste

39:19

rebellion was i think

39:21

as cheap as or that news

39:23

and if she was

39:26

really concerned place

39:28

so that we live on and she said

39:30

we must put a brake on the machinery

39:32

of our rather than go on wailing

39:34

it's wheel

39:36

if were just going along with

39:38

the flow doing that was supposed to do

39:40

maintaining the status quo in the

39:42

midst of oppression and

39:44

injustices then that's

39:46

on us were escaping our

39:49

responsibility for shaping

39:51

that conditions of our lives she

39:53

has justice can never be created with

39:56

injustice and so it's all

39:58

about responsibilities

39:59

you push back against

40:02

atrocities in the wild

40:04

that leads me to this

40:06

relationship between authenticity and and

40:08

happiness or desire for individual

40:10

happiness and our responsibilities

40:13

to the people around us if

40:15

we're trying to live an authentic life

40:17

happiness the right goal it

40:20

seems to me that if we take happiness

40:23

as the primary aim them were likely

40:25

to give ourselves over to diversions

40:28

and see pleasures and i guess i

40:30

wouldn't say that say makes an authentic

40:32

life and possible but i would say

40:34

that it undermines

40:35

yeah definitely

40:38

i don't think happiness is something we can pursue

40:40

directly an attitude both laugh and

40:43

, is another thing she shares in common with

40:45

can move as in the search for happiness

40:47

yet most of her writing does focus

40:49

on freedom freedom

40:52

theme of happiness that keeps coming back

40:54

and she says in her memoir in a sheets

40:57

i had always been concerned with spain

40:59

happy but she discovered that's

41:02

when not like empty vessels that can

41:04

be filled with oh the next act

41:06

or the next he nice new technology

41:09

is is gonna fulfill us and them

41:11

will be happy rather she

41:13

saw

41:14

happiness as

41:16

i kind of flourishing that comes

41:19

from living in harmony with

41:21

the world and is

41:24

a side effect of being authentic

41:26

a side effect of transcending

41:28

and pursuing goals that we choose

41:31

but of course as you rightly mentions

41:34

you know how many is never many given

41:36

how many is always many challenge and

41:39

how do we create harmony mrs we've

41:42

been talking about here with were

41:44

trying to pursue our goals and other

41:46

people are trying to do the saints then of course

41:48

we gonna crash into each other but

41:51

blast says that it's

41:53

important to embrace that kind

41:55

of ambiguity embrace the tension

41:57

embrace the sodas crashes

41:59

as long as people aren't

42:02

actively trying to a process

42:04

and if we can sort of

42:07

knowledge these tensions as a part

42:09

of life then she's

42:11

like that should be a source of joy it

42:13

can be in an assist from seeing

42:16

other people as threats to

42:18

seeing them as actually

42:20

the context of our freedom the context of

42:22

our goals and aspect

42:25

of our existence that we can work with

42:27

will push against she was of the pew

42:29

let's try and create friendships and work

42:31

with one another

42:32

there are you write a book that for

42:34

revoir happiness

42:36

doesn't fall from heaven we have to try to construct

42:38

our own

42:39

happiness and what's so interesting about

42:42

her is that she lived her life as a kind of experiment

42:44

in this regard her life was

42:47

a practical test of her philosophy

42:49

she really loved it was only tried the limits do

42:51

you think the she was happy and fulfilled in the

42:53

end

42:54

that's hard for me to judge about

42:56

is she said my philosophy must

42:58

be from wife and she said that very

43:01

early on and from

43:03

her memoirs

43:04

there were

43:06

many happy times in her life

43:08

but they're also sad times

43:10

and i think let her memoir

43:12

so us is that may be a good

43:14

life is one net isn't

43:17

just focused and happiness that one

43:19

that recognizes that there

43:21

are tragedies and sadnesses

43:24

in life as well and it's a matter

43:26

of working through those and

43:29

concrete happiness she thought

43:31

would come from

43:33

the responsible taking responsibility

43:35

exercising our freedom

43:38

but also enabling

43:40

others to do the same

43:42

the you issue something of a warning

43:44

in a book i think and it relates to this question

43:46

of happiness he said that we shouldn't be

43:48

too and i putting new here but

43:51

he said it recently too dependent on others

43:53

to define our worth and are value

43:55

in the world what happens when

43:57

we do that

43:59

then we become

43:59

the holding to other people's views

44:02

of us he becomes pushed

44:04

around by whatever people

44:06

one for us

44:07

you know that for losing game

44:09

because of the people have their own projects

44:12

and aunts or uncles and they're so many different

44:15

things they want for themselves and so would

44:17

just and i see this on social media

44:20

if were just trying to be beholden to

44:22

what everybody else months and get those

44:24

lights were going to be

44:25

how an insane any different directions

44:28

and

44:29

the thing about social media is that quite

44:31

often people are trying to present his

44:34

cohesive image of themselves

44:36

that stovall says that what we're doing

44:38

okay not in social media but if

44:40

were trying to present this image of ourselves

44:42

thin we're forgetting that were

44:45

fragmented being

44:47

what happens when we do that when we become

44:49

dependent in that way on other people's

44:52

views of us is we become

44:54

almost like objects in need of external

44:57

validation and you can never be really

44:59

free or even authentic and that

45:01

way and and the new right

45:03

this in the park and it's something

45:05

i've experienced the my own life i guess it's what people

45:08

would call

45:09

the past

45:10

syndrome can we speak for me here you know but i

45:12

had this thing where i've i've speak and

45:14

write and i share my opinions and ideas

45:16

and people consume those ideas and

45:18

as a kind of vulnerability and that and i'm constantly

45:21

worried about being judged stupid

45:24

things things are things i get wrong

45:27

or just stepping on myself

45:29

one way or the other and not being

45:31

as clever as i wanted the are smart

45:33

sharp as i wanted the and living

45:35

that way or fearing

45:38

that then me and and

45:40

anyone else who shares that from

45:42

actually just

45:44

in comfortable my own skin being free

45:46

to kind of

45:47

the now experience life as it is not

45:49

be cowed by

45:50

anxiety about the consequences sunsets

45:54

and i'd do it gets out what you're getting at diana

45:56

you only bring this up because you bring it up in the

45:58

balkans i don't know any

45:59

you have an anathema to here

46:02

the first one of the things that why

46:05

was deeply concerned about that

46:07

years so we need others and other people

46:10

are the context of our existence

46:12

and and we need others we

46:14

need them to understands

46:17

our existence in the world

46:19

but the problem is that we shouldn't be

46:22

defending ourselves through the gaze of

46:24

the other to such an extent that

46:27

you lose ourselves

46:28

and

46:29

why encourages us to be

46:32

comfortable with are ambiguous

46:34

existence and be comfortable

46:37

with the idea that

46:39

the coming sure we are

46:41

is the creative adventure

46:44

and one of the things that really inspires me

46:46

about prove why is she

46:49

is

46:50

challenging us to become

46:52

then you and poets about lives were

46:55

in

46:55

or eating our to transcend

46:58

the buried with stance and to

47:00

try and you know acknowledge our

47:02

engaging with other people but not

47:04

to the extent that we figure out who we

47:06

are

47:07

when we can

47:10

exercise our freedom and

47:12

and or and ourselves and authentic ways

47:14

stance is she thought that we were really

47:16

get to the truth of what it means her

47:19

to be human

47:21

there any other

47:22

examples are lessons from boof was

47:24

life a come to mind as

47:27

we can apply today that can

47:29

be a practical guide for us today

47:31

and our pursuit of of an

47:34

authentic existence

47:36

first of all be the poet of

47:38

your own wife acknowledged that

47:40

you're complex very fragmented

47:43

being and always

47:46

have the possibility of

47:49

changing your life and one of my favorite

47:51

quotes from but why is she says

47:54

don't gamble in the future at now without

47:56

delay and i love that

47:58

urgency season on pro life

48:01

and , challenging us

48:03

to say okay just because with done

48:05

something the past or just because maybe

48:07

we've got ourselves into some kind of that doesn't

48:09

mean we can't push ourselves

48:12

ensue new direction

48:14

it was seeking thing with each

48:16

the you accepts responsibility

48:19

and that means

48:20

they're having a responsibility to become

48:23

lucid about your life becoming

48:26

lucid about the choices you're making

48:28

and the world you're shaking around you

48:31

and the law says immobile or inaction

48:33

will always be upon us every

48:36

refusal is refusal choice every silent

48:38

the ball

48:40

read or what we do

48:42

whether we act or don't act they're

48:44

both

48:44

and i said

48:47

i would be to focus on building

48:49

into subjective relationship and

48:52

acknowledging that we can only become

48:54

are censored in collaboration with

48:56

other people

48:58

the other people reflects parts of

49:00

our being back to us we'll

49:02

learn about our existence true

49:05

our interactions with them yeah

49:07

you know

49:08

if i could add anything to that and and maybe a connects

49:11

a little bit to this idea of ambiguity but something

49:13

that kept jumping up to me was this notion of not

49:15

being attached to outcomes tiny

49:17

fixed outcome not being attached to any fixed

49:20

version of your self that we

49:22

are evolving messy creatures

49:25

constantly creating

49:27

ourselves and that it you become attached

49:30

to a story of yourself or version of yourself

49:32

your life will become about defending and protecting that

49:35

annual you will miss the opportunity to

49:37

become something else to grow

49:39

into something else and that is a kind

49:41

of

49:42

had face that is a kind of inauthentic

49:44

lifestyle

49:46

i think everyone would do well to resist

49:48

and i think of our and you in the spot to

49:50

good job of making that case

49:53

the roster

49:54

you

49:55

the book is had to be authentic simone

49:58

de beauvoir and the quest

49:59

for for filming sky cleary

50:02

thanks so much for coming in today

50:14

box conversations

50:17

is produced by eric jenny gus

50:20

are , is amy just dusk

50:23

dusk boy mixed and mastered this

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mastered or theme music

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was dreamed up by the mysterious craig master

50:29

cylinder and am fall

50:31

is or deputy is director

50:35

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50:37

if you have ideas for future gas

50:40

topics or really any thoughts at all

50:42

sentence of box conversations sentence

50:44

box dot and

50:46

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share it with your friends rate and review that's

50:51

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50:53

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of past conversation