1:23

So I'm Ayse uh, Ayse Birsel, and I was born in Turkey in

1:30

Isme and I grew up there. So hello Paba and if there any other Turks.

1:37

And I grew up in a family of lawyers and I was set to become a lawyer.

1:42

Then I thought, well, I love to draw, so maybe I should do something more artistic.

1:48

And I was gonna become an architect.

1:51

But then a family friend came to t and talked to me about industrial

1:56

design, and I had never heard those two words together before.

2:00

And I thought, yeah, that's interesting. And the way he talked about it, I love tea, right?

2:05

Here we go. And he said, you see how the edge of this cup is curved?

2:11

It's so that it can fit our, our lips better.

2:14

And it has a handle so you can hold hot liquid in your

2:17

hands without burning yourself. And then it has a saucer so that if you spill your tea, you want ruin your,

2:24

your mother's beautiful tablecloth. And in that moment, I fell in love with this, the human scale of, of design.

2:32

And I thought that's what I want to do. And that's what I've been doing.

2:35

And I've designed everything from office systems to concept cars,

2:40

to potato peelers, to toilets.

2:44

And in fact, I was known as the queen of toilets, uh, for a while,

2:48

which I took as a great compliment.

2:51

Because, I mean, who gets to design toilets, right?

2:54

It's a, it's a privilege. Most of you might have used or sat in something that I've

3:00

designed without knowing it. So then, um, at one point I took all of this and I started thinking

3:10

to myself, well, how do I design? Like what goes on in my head?

3:14

And I worked on kind of externalizing that for a year and I sketched and

3:21

thought about how I design in my process.

3:23

And from that, uh, developed deconstruction, reconstruction.

3:27

And I would show it to my friends. I'd like, okay, this is how I design.

3:32

And they'd be like, wow, it's so complicated, you know,

3:36

we don't understand you. So then I had to like simplify it and simplify it until it became

3:42

something that was like the simplicity on the other side of complexity.

3:47

And then once I had that, I, I've always thought that our lives.

3:52

Like our life is our biggest project. And I thought, well now I have a design process, why don't I apply it to my

3:59

life and see if life is truly a design project or that if my, my process works.

4:06

And so that's what I did. And from that developed, uh, design the life you love.

4:11

And the interesting thing about that was like, you saw how long it took me to

4:16

explain what industrial design is, right?

4:18

It usually takes me like five to 10 minutes for people

4:22

to understand what we do. But then if I tell someone, Hey, I teach people how to design their lives, they

4:29

go immediately, oh, I wanna try that.

4:31

I wanna design my life. So it's kind of like something so natural for us.

4:38

It's, um, it requires no explanation.

4:42

So then people start coming to design the life you love.

4:45

And then, you know, and it became a book,

4:48

There's quite a few things I wanted to just explore with you there.

4:51

There's the, immediately there's the book writing process and what that meant

4:54

for you and for people who, you know, have ideas and they want to get them out

4:58

there and communicate them, what that really takes and your experience of it.

5:03

There's this idea of, okay, people really attracted to the idea of designing

5:07

their own lives and what's behind that. So be curious around that.

5:11

Uh, but then to begin with, maybe there isn't something here, but I,

5:15

I wanna, I'd like to just check.

5:18

You said you felt a need to understand how you design, essentially.

5:24

I was thinking essentially dis process of deconstructing your process.

5:28

Which, which is called deconstruction reconstruction.

5:30

So thank you. Awesome.

5:34

It's all very, it's all very meta. Very meta. Exactly.

5:37

Uh, so was there a But you know, I, I don't know, maybe did you just

5:41

wake up say, oh, I really should do this, or was there something that

5:43

actually this, was there a need?

5:46

What was the thing that. Triggered you to actually start that even.

5:50

That's such a good question, Carlos. It, yeah.

5:53

Uh, well, I woke up one day and realized that, um, it was 2008 and all our clients

6:03

had taken their work in-house because of the, uh, economic downturn in the states.

6:10

And I hadn't seen this coming.

6:13

We were, it was, I was partners and I still am, but you know, with bbs

6:18

sec, my, um, husband and partner who's an automobile designer, um,

6:24

we had three young kids, uh, my stepson and our two daughters.

6:30

And the economy turned, and with it all our clients took their work in-house.

6:35

And I was like, what just happened?

6:38

You know, we were so successful and we were working with like some of

6:44

the top brands, um, in the states.

6:47

And it of course made so much sense for them.

6:49

Like, I totally understand it. We were on the outside and they, they were cutting budgets.

6:55

But long story short, I thought, um, I'll, you know, it's okay.

6:59

I'll go find a job, job.

7:01

So I went to see headhunters.

7:04

And then the headhunters were like, Ayse, you know, you're not

7:09

employable because you, you've never worked in an office before.

7:13

And it's true. I've always had my own studio.

7:16

And I was like, but I design office systems.

7:20

They're like, well, that doesn't count. So anyways, um, I found, Myself with a lot of time in my hands, and I really

7:29

felt, um, pressured because, you know, when you don't have kids, it's okay.

7:35

You, you can manage, manage by, right?

7:38

But when you have kids and you have to put bread on the table, it's a lot of stress.

7:42

So this friend of mine, Leah Kaplan, who's one of my oldest friends and

7:46

collaborator, she said to me, look, Ayse, you have all this time in your hands.

7:49

Why don't you use this time to think about how you think

7:53

because you think differently. And that was kind of the, they click for me, where I thought, oh, one person

7:59

still believes that I think differently and I have something to offer.

8:05

And, um, I read recently that, uh, all you need is one person to believe in you.

8:12

Mm. Uh, but that person can't be your mom.

8:15

So, so Leah was that one person for me, and I thought, okay.

8:19

So then I started like that, that's what got me started and I started

8:22

literally like mapping out my brain in sketching how I think,

8:27

it's very of that, um, the uh, YouTube video of the guy on the side of the hill.

8:33

You've probably seen that the festival. He starts dancing.

8:36

He's a bit of a crazy guy. I dunno if he's on something.

8:38

And then I think Derek Sivers did a Ted talk about it, but then the

8:41

next guy who copies him as a joke is the kind of the ally almost.

8:45

And then off that, back of that whole movement starts.

8:48

So yeah, she was your And everybody's dancing, right?

8:51

Yeah, exactly. So everybody deconstruct your process and then reconstructed, of course, you know,

8:59

So there's a, an element of circumstance, like you said.

9:02

2008 crisis. All right.

9:04

Needing to do something. I loved what the, the way you call it, I need to get a job, job,

9:11

Not pretend job As if I, I haven't been working for the past however long, and now I have to work.

9:19

And so I, I just wanna look into that as well because this is something I think

9:22

people in our community be interested in. Cuz there is this element of like, work is hard and there's the job,

9:27

job and then, well, what is it?

9:29

What, how would you describe it in terms of the contrast between what you were

9:33

doing before and then having to get a job? Job? You know, when you're your own boss, as I think many of you here are, there,

9:40

there is a sense of freedom that you get to decide what you want to work on, when

9:46

you want to work on it, how you want to work on it, who you wanna work with.

9:50

And that freedom is worth quite a bit for us, uh, and balances out

9:56

all the, um, uncertainties, right?

9:59

And the difficulties and the challenges and the hard work, and kind of that

10:03

sense of taking initiative of your life.

10:06

And my sense of, well, I don't know what the job job is like because I still

10:12

haven't landed one, but, uh, I think the idea is that, you know, you have a boss,

10:19

somebody else makes certain decisions for you, and that work is regulated.

10:25

And of course, like covid changed a lot of this and I think gave many people

10:30

a taste of being their own boss, even when they're employed by someone else.

10:36

This is the important aspect of this, I think I wanted to pick up on which

10:40

I, because I believe a lot of people who are, who follow our work, who are

10:44

interested in what we do are free spirits or caged potentially free spirits as well.

10:50

Because you talked about this idea of autonomy and freedom and um, choice.

10:56

And it kind of leads me onto the next bit of the question was around

11:01

why people are so interested in this idea of designing their life.

11:05

I've got this analogy of like this whole life being a race kind of thing.

11:08

And what happens is like, at the beginning, you've seen everyone at

11:12

this starting line and you dunno why they're at this starting line.

11:15

So you just join them and then next thing you know, you're running this

11:18

race and you're getting tired and you're getting slowly burnt out.

11:21

And you think, why am I doing this? Why am I running with all these people?

11:26

And they're like, well, what else?

11:28

What else do I do? And so this is for me this idea of like, well, what, how do I choose?

11:35

And if I'm gonna choose something, what could it be?

11:38

Which means it's a design problem.

11:42

Yes. It, it's just like you explained it.

11:45

I love that explanation. And it's, um, I think just like you said, there are moments in our life where

11:54

we stop and think, hold on one second.

11:57

Why? Why was I doing this?

12:00

And for different people, it happens in different moments.

12:03

Uh, for some people it happens as, you know, early on as they come out

12:09

of school and they have a great sense of self awareness and they want to

12:15

kind of take charge of their life. But like you said, for most people, life happens to us versus you defining

12:25

and designing and imagining that life.

12:28

But for almost everyone, there's a time where you suddenly go, hold on one second.

12:33

Like, what's my purpose?

12:35

Why am I here? What's the, like this quest for meaning?

12:38

And that's a great moment to think about designing your life.

12:42

I think that's why people connect with the idea.

12:46

And then there the, when you dig a little deeper, you know, like

12:50

the principles of design that I talk about is about optimism.

12:55

You know, no matter how hard the problem that we're going to

12:58

come up with a better solution. Or empathy, empathy for other people, but also empathy for yourself.

13:04

Collaboration, you know, asking for help and giving help and

13:09

building on each other's ideas. And, and then open mind knowing that, you know, sometimes often the, the ideas

13:16

come from like the worst places, right? Like, I mean, the economy crashed and then that's what led me to this awakening.

13:24

So it, um, those are the kinds of things, or seeing the big

13:28

pictures so you can connect the dots in new and different ways.

13:31

Those are like the principles of design and which allows people to

13:37

think about their life, something very personal, very serious, uh, but to

13:43

think about it, um, in a safe space.

13:47

Because creativity does create a safe space and gives you the

13:51

freedom to play with ideas.

13:54

And one of the things like we started our conversation with, what's your emotion?

13:59

The emotion of design is playful.

14:02

Uh, because when we're playing, we're like kids.

14:04

We're not afraid of making mistakes.

14:06

And that is essential because the, the more challenging the problem,

14:11

the more playfulness you need. Mm-hmm.

14:14

Of like, what if I did this? What if I did that?

14:16

You know, and but this plus this makes that, and then this plus that

14:20

makes this, well that's a good idea.

14:22

Hmm. So I think that's what makes the process work.

14:24

And then if I may add one more thing is like, that simplicity I talked about

14:29

in the beginning is essential because my goal was to make this accessible to

14:35

everyone, not just designers, really to anyone who's interested from ages

14:42

like 10 all the way to a hundred.

14:46

And I have worked with kids who are 13 and people who are 90 plus.

14:51

And the process works.

14:54

And it's transformative. It's one of our core values.

14:57

You know, me and Carlos have known each other for 40 years,

14:59

went to school together. And it was kind of awkward trying to work out what our company values were

15:03

when we've been friends for so long. But play was one of the things that, that actually came up when we did that

15:10

exercise probably 15 years ago now. Because I think we had both experienced work and business being

15:17

the opposite actually, that a lot of the work environments we'd been in.

15:21

And actually some of the creative, um, companies I've been in on the

15:24

outside had the feeling of play, but on the inside didn't feel that way.

15:28

And again, you can have a overbearing boss or you can have

15:32

a project you don't believe in. There's so many reasons why I think it's hard to live those values.

15:37

But yeah, I think for us, that's always been at the heart of all of our work,

15:40

whether it's Summercamp or the programs we run or anything we do, we try and

15:43

bring that element of play to it. And like you said, particularly around the idea that some of the conversations

15:49

and topics that get brought up are very, um, important to people.

15:53

So in some ways you don't wanna make it seem frivolous, but trying

15:57

to lighten that load is important. Otherwise, you can just spin out and go around in circles, we found.

16:02

So, yeah, I totally, uh, resonate with that idea.

16:06

I feel like our ideas are so aligned.

16:09

You talk about happy, I mean the, the who, who has the word happy

16:14

in their, um, business, right?

16:16

Mm-hmm. And then for me, who has the word love?

16:20

But the, the, this, I think we're all communicating that all of this is

16:24

for a purpose, and that purpose is to bring joy to people's lives, you know?

16:29

Well, the, the way I, I connect these, and I think this is, we,

16:33

you mentioned this in the past. So there's, when I think about the love, there's the design, the life you love, i

16:39

the word optimism, again, springs to mind is something that excites you, something

16:42

that's pulling you towards the future.

16:45

You know, something that's driving you towards a place rather than running away

16:48

from somewhere, you are going to somewhere that, that, that you, you want to go to.

16:55

And then there's the aspect of like, there's different ways

16:58

nec potentially to get there. Um, and that's the creative aspect of it.

17:02

And for me, having the word play is not only just the feeling of

17:09

joy, maybe in the process, but also the expansiveness and openness of

17:16

all the different possibilities. There's so many different ways we can do that.

17:19

So let's, let's play with them. Let's try all the different things and see, like you were saying before,

17:25

some dots might connect and suddenly something this, ah, this is what we

17:28

could do, this is what we could create. And this is in all within service of something.

17:34

And that's the other aspect I think that's coming out.

17:36

This is idea of meaning. Anya mentioned something about, you know, this attraction to this idea of

17:42

designing the life you love may be coming from this lack of agency in our lives.

17:47

Mm-hmm. And so how do I then find more agency?

17:50

So what does that mean in terms of what kind of life does that, that,

17:54

um, have to be, but ultimately there's a lack of meaning without agency.

17:59

Totally, and I, I think, um, when I was reading Anya's question or um,

18:05

statement I was thinking, for me the first step is giving yourself permission.

18:11

And that's not that easy, but giving yourself permission to design your

18:15

life or to have that kind of agency.

18:18

And I think, um, it's with the understanding that, um, agency doesn't

18:24

mean that you can do anything you want.

18:27

I don't think we get the, uh, the liberty that no one gets, that it's

18:34

just, uh, being intentional and like you said, like thinking about

18:40

what, what's meaningful for me? What, what are my values?

18:43

How do I bring them to life? And that, to me, this is like a.

18:47

Uh, lifelong journey. I, I've been talking about design the life you love for, I think,

18:54

um, 15 years now and doing it.

18:57

And just the other day I was working with my coach and I said,

19:02

I think I need to design my life. And then we started laughing, you know, and I said, you know,

19:08

I've written a book about that. But it was as if suddenly I was hearing myself for the first time.

19:14

And it had to do with the fact that of course, the kids have grown up

19:18

and now, like a new page is opening and, and I need to design my life.

19:23

And then, and that's exactly what I'm doing now.

19:26

But it's, uh, so to say like, I think, all these things we are

19:30

talking about agency or finding meaning they don't happen overnight.

19:35

I don't think it's, it's, uh, It's a, a renewal process.

19:38

It feels like. You know, different phases of your life. It's not like you're do it once and you're done.

19:42

It's uh, it's an ongoing evolution of your, as kids get older or work changes

19:48

or life changes, the world changes. Yeah, exactly.

19:52

I think actually it was the bit about agency.

19:54

It's like, yes. Doesn't mean you can do anything you want.

19:58

And I was gonna say, actually it does, but also it means you

20:02

are responsible for what you do. Mm-hmm.

20:04

It's like when you are given full autonomy and full agency and if you want it, cause

20:10

I I, and I'm relating it back to when we used to run an agency and an agency,

20:14

giving people agency within their agency. Exactly, but yeah, no, but there was this element of like, but there's, that

20:21

meant they also had responsibility or they felt responsibility, because any

20:25

choice they made was down to them.

20:28

And so without that sense of responsibility, agency can

20:31

be very destructive, I think. This is what I'm, I'm coming up with.

20:35

So part of this I think I wanted to communicate is we are very

20:39

much advocates for do whatever you want, but understand there may be

20:47

consequences and repercussions. And, uh, you talked about before, empathy.

20:50

There's empathy for ourselves, but then there's empathy for others.

20:53

So, so we could, you know, do whatever we want in terms of our businesses, but

20:56

actually are we able to take ownership of what that also means for other people?

21:01

Which then also then Connects to this idea of having a coach

21:03

in, which ties nicely to the idea of collaboration, right?

21:07

So I started working with my coach, um, Jean Easy.

21:12

Uh, Jean Easy. I always say Jean Easy because he makes things easy for me.

21:16

Sorry for that. Jean Early.

21:19

a designer, you keep branding, you know, can't stop.

21:21

Yeah. But it's, um, like I felt that I needed somebody that I could collaborate

21:28

with and just like in other project, if this is a project, and it is, I

21:35

needed the wisdom and the expertise of somebody other than myself.

21:39

And to have that back and forth and found it incredibly, um, helpful.

21:45

Because, well, thank you for, uh, saying like, I know I know what I'm talking

21:52

about, uh, but sometimes you don't know how to listen to yourself, right?

21:59

Mm-hmm. Uh, so I'm also part of, um, a 100 Coaches, which is a community that

22:06

Marshall Goldsmith, um, started.

22:09

And so I'll do a little, uh, detour, but Marshall Goldsmith is known as the

22:14

world's number one leadership coach. And I am, for full disclosure, I am Marshall's coach.

22:21

So, and he's my mentor, so it's kind of like.

22:24

But um, so I met Marshall when he was coaching a CEO that I was working

22:30

with, and then we became friends. And then when my book came out, um, he said, I say to promote your book.

22:36

Why don't you do a session and I'll invite my friends.

22:39

And then he showed up with 70 of his friends.

22:43

And yeah, Mar Marshall, I mean, when he shows up every,

22:46

everybody wants to be there. So, uh, we had like our biggest session at the time.

22:52

And then, um, in the moment he, he himself did the process and I ask people

23:00

who their heroes are to inspire them.

23:03

And then, um, so Marshall said, my heroes are my teachers, people who,

23:07

who've taught me everything I know. And then I said, so what are you going to do to be more like your heroes?

23:16

And then he had this big aha where he realized I need to teach

23:20

everything I know to others for free.

23:23

And from that, uh, he started the movement and he invited, uh, he put a, a message

23:30

on LinkedIn, a video, and he said, anybody who wants to learn how I think,

23:35

I'm inviting 15 people to learn from me.

23:39

And then 17,000 people replied.

23:43

Wow. So then, you know, he started 100 Coaches and I call myself member number one, and

23:49

Marshall always gives me credit because he says, this happened at your session.

23:54

So I'm very familiar with coaching and surrounded with amazing coaching friends.

23:59

And I think that, We can all use a coach one to one time for or another.

24:04

The thing that really stuck with me is like, we sometimes find

24:07

it hard to listen to ourselves. Yeah.

24:10

I think that would resonate with a lot of people. And on the topic of collaboration, the other thing is like, sometimes

24:15

we listen to ourselves in the wrong way, in the sense that, you

24:18

know, we work with a lot of people. We're trying to help them create, and they have these things they

24:22

want to create and sometimes they've created things and they're just

24:25

not sharing them with the world. Or they're creating things and they've got very myopic view about how it should be.

24:31

And there's something here around, whether it's with a coach, with other people,

24:34

just having a process of co collaboration, co-creation, you call it, and you, we

24:40

talked previously about co-design, how valuable that can be in terms of really

24:47

amplifying the, the beauty, the impact, the simplicity even of whatever it is

24:54

you wanna birth or, or offer to people.

24:57

And so I maybe what I'd like to hear and just get your take on, for anyone

25:02

out there who's scared of sharing anything that they've ever made

25:05

mm-hmm. Not to the extent that they wouldn't even share the, to the world.

25:08

They made something, they think they want to give it to everyone,

25:10

you know, to actually offer it as a product or a service, but they,

25:14

they've kept it so tightly that there, it isn't even out there.

25:18

And, and that's, there's something around, uh, maybe why it would be so

25:23

beneficial for them in your perspective to start sharing and, and co-creating or

25:29

letting go a bit, let's put it that way. That's a great question.

25:32

And, um, there are two pieces of benefit in my mind.

25:36

One is when you make something public, It makes it real and it makes it real

25:43

and it's harder to walk away from.

25:46

When you have an idea but you don't share it, I would just

25:50

wanna ask, is it quite real?

25:53

because once it's public, and it could be public, that, um, you share it

25:57

with your intimate circle, you share it with your friends, and then the

26:02

bigger circle, you share it with your community and then you know, you share

26:06

it on LinkedIn like, uh, Marshall did.

26:09

And then that's when you realize like, if Marshall had had this idea and kept

26:15

it to himself, nothing would've happened.

26:18

Once he put it on LinkedIn, he hid on it.

26:21

It was like an experiment, right? We experiment and we have, I think to somebody who would keep their ideas

26:29

kind of close to them, I would say we have so many ideas, and you have to put

26:34

them out there and see which one sticks.

26:37

Like, I didn't know this idea was going to stick, right?

26:41

I started as an experiment and then people responded to it.

26:44

If this didn't, this didn't work, I would've found some something else.

26:47

And you would've found something else, right? So that's one piece of it.

26:50

The other piece that I wanted to come back to collaboration, because we use the

26:54

word collaboration, but with, um, recently I did, uh, long study into, um, aging.

27:02

And what I realized is collaboration is actually simply.

27:07

Asking people for help and giving people help.

27:11

And once you start to do that, that does two things.

27:15

One is it builds trust, but two, it creates friendships.

27:20

Mm. Trust is essential to friendships.

27:22

Collaboration builds trust, leads to friendships.

27:26

And this is what the three of us are doing here right now.

27:30

Actually, maybe to everyone listening, it seems like we're doing a, a fire

27:36

chat, fireside chat, but we're actually building our friendship because if

27:42

this conversation, like an hour ago we, we didn't have this conversation.

27:49

Now we're collaborating. We're having this conversation.

27:51

This conversation is gonna lead to other conversations and other

27:54

collaborations, and it gives us opportunities to hang out together.

27:59

Hmm. And this is, I think, so important, um, that I wanna tell everyone here.

28:04

Uh, work, work with your friends and become friends with people you work with.

28:11

To me, that's one of the essential pieces of finding meaning in li in life.

28:16

And it's fun. Come on, you know. I was really curious that you, you say that in terms of friendship and this

28:23

idea of work as, as someone, actually Frances shared the podcast with me

28:28

recently from the Squiggly Career people about how to find friendship at work.

28:33

But there's, there's this real challenge. I think some people find it difficult to marry this idea of friendship and work.

28:41

And there's, and there's, you know, my hunch is there's something around

28:44

the idea of the emotional aspect of how we turn up at work and how we're

28:49

supposed to be professional and how we're supposed to be able to, you know.

28:53

There's something, there's a safety in a process.

28:55

Cause you don't have to think, you don't have to negotiate or you don't

28:58

have to deal with conflict so much. It's like, it's either a computer says yes or computer says no.

29:02

And so boom, if I'm in a, in a business with a culture's, like

29:04

very much, all right, you do this, you do that, and we'll be fine.

29:09

As opposed to when you're working with people that you enjoy working with

29:12

and there's, you know, start having an emotional connection and you start talking

29:16

at different levels, there's a experience there that I think adds to the work.

29:22

But then there's also, you know, you have to be comfortable with maybe

29:26

a bit of conflict and other, other emotions that come into, a relationship.

29:32

So I'm, I think what I'm trying to get at there is like, I think when you talk

29:36

about friendship, I think it's being open, opening ourselves up to all of

29:40

the person that we are working with, not just the transactional side of like, oh,

29:44

you've got that skill, you've got that thing you can offer, I've got, you know.

29:48

There's a piece of something that I've been practicing and trying to

29:53

learn is to have unconditional love.

29:57

And how, how do you do that? How do you do that across the board, you know?

30:02

Mm-hmm. And to be able to see other people with empathy.

30:06

And, you know, often, what bugs us about other people are the

30:11

same things that we have, right?

30:13

Mm-hmm. So, I mean, all these things tie together, right?

30:17

When we have empathy for ourselves and other people, and we can be forgiving and

30:24

unconditional, it's not just about them, it's also about us and loving ourselves.

30:29

So it, and then this is the other thing that I learned from this,

30:35

uh, design research we did about aging is that as we age, we learn to

30:39

love ourselves and self-acceptance.

30:42

And so I feel like, I mean, these are things that I couldn't

30:46

have talked about, even thought about 10 years ago, 20 years ago.

30:53

But now it's, um, both my research and my, uh, where I'm at with

30:58

my own life or coming together.

31:01

Um, and my whole thing is, okay, well I didn't know how to think about these 20

31:05

years ago, but I wish I did, you know?

31:08

Mm-hmm. I wish I knew. I knew how to love myself more when I was younger.

31:13

There's something around harvesting and capturing.

31:17

Well, this, communicating what you found with the research.

31:21

Yeah. To help others think about this long life.

31:27

You know, This is what I love about how projects, like, we're very lucky

31:32

because I think we're all here working on projects and not everybody works on

31:38

projects or think, thinks in projects.

31:41

But what I love about projects is they, they're a journey.

31:45

They take you places. So my, my project, like being a designer, it's natural for me to

31:51

think in project terms, right?

31:54

Um, and to. Kind of go into this unknown of like the ambiguity of like, I don't

32:01

know how this is gonna turn out. So design the Life You Love taught me one thing, and that is everybody

32:08

is extraordinarily creative.

32:11

And, um, I was at the design conference on, uh, Monday and Tuesday and somebody

32:17

said, we're all designers until school kind of kicks it out of us.

32:24

And I thought, I know exactly what you mean.

32:27

So anyways, what I found is if I can share my process and tools with

32:32

people, you know, because I need my process to be creative, right?

32:37

Then they are extraordinarily creative.

32:39

They just need, a little bit of guidance of like, how do you think creatively?

32:44

Anyways, once I realized that people can transform their lives through design,

32:50

pure design, it made me realize, they can think creatively about any subset of their

32:56

lives and we can co-design with this.

32:58

And so then we went to our clients like GE and said Why don't we design

33:03

co-design laundry with people? Why don't we?

33:06

And then we went to, um, Toyota, and then we said, why don't we actually, they

33:12

asked us like co-design luxury vehicles together, adventure with millennials

33:18

together, and then excellence with Harvard Business Review, And then, you name it.

33:22

And we ended up doing these co-design, um, studies, which were incredibly exciting,

33:28

and rich in how, like understanding how your end users think to build

33:36

empathy with them, and then for them to trust you through that collaboration

33:40

that I was just talking about. So then, we became together with my team, really interested in the

33:46

aging space because we had aging parents and we realized there's

33:50

not much out there for them. So I, um, talked at Amazon one time and then I told, as I was leaving, I told

33:57

my host, if you ever work on aging, my team and I, we wanna work on aging.

34:02

And they said, we need you right now, which never happens, right?

34:06

And that was our first project. We, um, co-designed aging with people who are 65 plus with Amazon.

34:13

And then through our work with Amazon, we got connected with the Scan Foundation,

34:18

which is the probably the most important nonprofit in the states around aging

34:24

policy for, um, for the government.

34:27

And here's the what I wanted to come to, together we created this yearlong

34:34

research, co co-designing with people who are 65 and older their lives.

34:39

And that changed everything. Um, because most aging research is very reductionist.

34:46

It says, you know, you age and something breaks down, whether it's your family

34:49

structure, financial structure, work structure, social structure.

34:54

But when you co-design with older people, By the way, none of them

34:58

thought it was too late to design their lives, even when they were 90.

35:03

We realized that they have a growth mindset and none of them

35:07

see their lives as shrinking. Of course, they have challenges and you know, these challenges happen at different

35:12

times, but that they're all about this expansions viewpoint of like, what's next?

35:20

And anyways, that changed our perspective.

35:24

And I learned all these lessons, and then realized, when we finished the

35:28

research, I was like, what do I do now?

35:32

This is such an incredible message and I just want to, what, what is the message?

35:39

The message is we have another 20 to 30 years longer to live.

35:46

We didn't have this time before, like our grandparents and great grandparents

35:49

didn't have this time before. And this is so exciting.

35:52

This to me, it's like the, the invention of, uh, moving

35:56

pictures or like automobiles.

35:59

And as, um, designers and creatives and entrepreneurs we're at the cusp

36:04

of this moment where nothing has been designed for this era because

36:08

this era didn't exist before. And I thought, I wanna tell, like, I wanna shout this from the rooftops,

36:14

and get people to understand, do you realize how thrilling this is?

36:19

And, um, and furthermore how amazing these older people are.

36:24

And so all those, the lessons I learned from them that I thought,

36:28

I wish I knew this when I was younger, went into this new book.

36:33

Well, we have the link for anyone who wants to pre-order.

36:36

Um, and please, um, well check out the link.

36:40

One thing I would pick up on, just that you demonstrating that idea of

36:44

how to collaborate you saying, you know, you asking for help to Amazon

36:48

at that moment led you on this path. So a very simple ask, it sounded like opened the door to this coming to life,

36:56

which again is a great example of, yeah, you showed a bit of a vulnerability

37:00

there by asking that question. Um, but the other aspect for me is more just.

37:05

It feels like, and I think we talked about this when we first spoke.

37:08

I, I'd only recently finished the a Hundred Year Life book, which again,

37:11

touches on similar ideas around this, um, opportunity that, that we have

37:17

to make the most of this new phase. And so for me it feels like almost a changing the

37:21

narrative around aging really. It feels like a bigger mission for this project.

37:25

Is that right for you? Because that feels to me like at the cusp of this is it's not just about teaching

37:31

people how to make the most of the time they got, but actually to tell stories of

37:34

it's not as bad as society's almost told us it is because it seems to be a lot

37:39

of negativity around getting old, right? And me and Carlos are hitting 50 next year and already, uh,

37:44

feeling a bit funny about that. So, um, yeah, it's nice to have stories of hope and optimism.

37:48

absolutely. And, you know, I'm amazed at this reductionist point of view.

37:53

You know, I come from Turkey and I live in New York, and it's this, like

37:57

these two opposing cultures, right?

37:59

The, uh, Eastern cultures, and Carlos, you and I talked a little bit about this

38:03

of like, I come from a culture where you respect your elders and value them.

38:09

And to this day, my best advisors are like my 80 year old aunts and

38:15

uncles, because I can't figure it out.

38:18

I, you know, and I'll, you know, they'll help me.

38:22

And then the, the youth culture in the states where the young are revered and,

38:28

and my sense is actually we're more alike than we think we are, and it's

38:35

not an either or situation, it's both.

38:37

You know, we, we need all of those things working together, and we have

38:42

so much to learn from each other. Well, I'd like to pick up on that one because I think we

38:46

are in a very unique time.

38:49

Well, actually that's an oxy, we're always in a unique time.

38:52

There's no, no time is the same as the other time.

38:54

This is more unique. This is more unique.

38:57

But the, I think the thing well, uh, the way I'll ground this, yeah.

39:01

Like Laurence said, I'm gonna be 50 next year.

39:04

I don't feel any different to how I was when I was 30 and.

39:09

I could even arguably say when I was 25, 20.

39:11

Like the, the things I like doing, the energy I have for life has not changed.

39:17

And so I can remember a few years back at Summercamp sort of like giving a

39:22

bit of a welcome talk and thinking, saying something along the lines,

39:25

I'll see you all here when we're 80. And this whole idea that actually rather than, oh, as I get older,

39:34

I have to get more serious. And you know, there's something about the, the world narrowing down as I get

39:41

older is like, I love this idea that how, cause how do more opportunities

39:48

turn up for us as we get older?

39:50

How can we look at the future of our older selves in a much more optimistic

39:57

way of, of all of the adventures that are still to come, as opposed to, alright,

40:04

I have to get everything done now. Even just like how that affects our energy.

40:07

Cause one of the things I, I believe that I've taken from my life, and

40:12

we talk about it a bit without the happy start, is the slow stupid

40:15

route of just not rushing anywhere.

40:17

Right. But just pacing ourselves through life.

40:21

Whereas we haven't got a massive business. No, yes, we're not millionaires.

40:24

But at the same time, you know, in it for the long game in terms of I wanna still

40:29

be around doing similar things when I'm 60, maybe when I'm 70, slightly less when

40:34

I'm 80, but still open up to the world. I'd love to see myself sat at a fire pit at the age of 80, talking to some 30

40:41

year olds, 20 year olds at summer camp. About what it is like to to live a life.

40:46

And you'll have hair, hair down by your ankles and you'd be

40:48

wearing a sort of gurus robe or

40:51

toga. No, I'd be, I'd be in beach shorts and a vest and like.

40:56

Laughing all the time. Laughing, exactly.

40:58

There we go. Exactly. If that, if that, if we can have that, not have this ageist thing of like,

41:03

oh, you can't be a kid when you're 50? It's like, yes.

41:05

Why can't we, why can't we play, have a attitude of excitement and

41:09

play no matter what age you are? Our research showed us that the thrill is not gone.

41:15

It's very much on, so we have some things to look forward to.

41:20

Yeah. That's the t-shirt, right? Um, Pauline had a couple of questions.

41:24

I know we've got two minutes just to maybe answer one of those.

41:26

She's a product designer looking to transition to work for herself

41:30

and create her own products rather than work just for clients.

41:33

And mm-hmm. I think she, her question was just around you starting Design the Life You

41:36

Love during a recession, any advice for anyone who's looking to build their own

41:39

brand or products in the next year at the moment of, you know, it's a challenging

41:43

time, right, for a lot of people. That's a great question.

41:46

f first of all, I think challenging moments are disruptive.

41:50

And so they're actually great moments for change, because if

41:54

things are going super well, why would you wanna change them, right?

41:57

Like, if the economy didn't hit, why would I like change what was working?

42:02

And then similarly, like Covid hit, and.

42:06

I started doing these weekly virtual teas, which are at 5:00 PM New York time.

42:13

So for you it's a little bit, it's like your 10:00 PM.

42:15

So for any late birds, you're invited to my, um, virtual teas.

42:20

So I would say the timing, challenging times are good times for change.

42:24

And the way I would do it is if possible, not to completely drop one thing and

42:31

start another, but to have to create kind of like a transition or a runway.

42:37

So for example, I started doing Design the Life You Love, but I continued my

42:41

studio, and figured out how got creative with using my time, so I could do both,

42:48

which you know, it's not easy to do.

42:51

But, uh, you'll hear a lot of people talk about, like authors talk about,

42:55

they, they write their books early in the morning and then they go do

42:59

something else to earn their bread. Mm-hmm.

43:02

And that's ki that, that's, that's true for me as well.

43:04

Like, I'll do all my experiments and kind of things that don't pay yet, early

43:10

in the mornings on weekends and stuff like that, but then still continue with

43:15

client work until I can switch, you know?

43:18

Yeah. That's. Yeah. The 80 20, like.

43:21

Mm-hmm. Yeah, Google time. And on that, cuz I, I saw a post by David Hyatt that said something

43:27

similar like, you know, during times of, uh, recession and, and challenge,

43:32

then there's opportunity, which, you know, makes really useful sense.

43:36

But I also wanna say there, this is something here around having

43:39

a bit of self-compassion around this in terms of when you are

43:42

scared, you're scared, you know.

43:45

It doesn't matter when there's a recession. If there's not a recession, it's like, if there's a fear of doing something new,

43:51

there's a fear of doing something new. And it's even worse when there's other fear going on around you.

43:56

So there's an element here of just, and like you, Ayse, you're

44:00

talking about creating a level of safety because the, you're not

44:03

putting all your eggs in one basket. The thing you're creating is not gonna be suddenly an existential

44:07

crisis if it doesn't work. So I just wanted to, I was really strong feelings about this just to

44:12

acknowledge, it's like, yes, there are opportunities in recession, but

44:16

don't think like, if I don't do it then there's something wrong with me.

44:19

It's like we also have to get used to uncertainty.

44:21

Really get used to the fear of maybe the money might not be there cuz there's

44:25

a risk involved with all of this. And so if, if we accept that there is a risk and, and somehow we will work it out.

44:34

And that's the thing, I think that's the hardest thing for most people to

44:36

believe that they will work it out.

44:39

Because we're so, we hold on so much to, to certainty.

44:44

And that's the journey that I've been on, particularly like holding on so much.

44:47

Like where is this gonna lead? How, how do I guarantee that this is gonna be a success?

44:51

As opposed to you're talking about lots of experiments and some things will fail.

44:55

That's such an excellent point. Um, I think part of it is something that I learned from another friend,

45:02

uh, Michael Bengay Stainer, who just wrote a book called How to Begin.

45:06

I would recommend that to everyone as well. Mm-hmm.

45:09

Where he talks about, and he talked to me actually, uh, he's in my book as well,

45:14

about the ambiguity of great projects.

45:18

I mean, that, that's what's exciting is the ambiguity, is that you don't know.

45:22

If you knew it, it would be a done deal.

45:24

Right. And I, I try to, it's not like I, well I'm saying these things and I'm like,

45:29

oh yeah, I practice them all the time. I'm saying it to also hear myself.

45:34

And I'm learning this, like I'm comfortable with the unknown and, and I'll

45:38

try to control things that I can control.

45:40

But then there are other things I'll do them.

45:43

I don't know where, what they will lead to.