1:23

I suppose I'm kind of like a, is it a hybrid career?

1:27

I don't quite know what the term is, but I am, I

1:30

started sort of writing in my, probably in my

1:33

forties and sort of writing and getting published.

1:36

'cause those two things are obviously separate. You can often write and not be published.

1:40

And I suppose at the moment, I would probably describe

1:43

myself as kind of being a consultant, a broadcaster and

1:47

author, stroke journalist. And now I could probably add another string, which

1:50

would be content creator, because one of the things

1:53

that seems to be doing quite well on my Instagram is me

1:56

doing Reels where I basically hold up various household

2:00

items to my Ear and pretend that they're a telephone

2:02

and then have imaginary conversations on WhatsApp.

2:05

Um, and it's funny because I've tried so hard and

2:08

I've worked for different people doing social media, but actually these are probably more popular than

2:12

many of the other kind of jobs I've been paid to do.

2:16

Um, which just shows you that sometimes you can do something

2:19

completely unintentionally and people just find it

2:21

funny and it resonates. Um, so I, I guess I had children quite late, so it's

2:27

kind of worth saying that, you know, up until I think I

2:31

had my first daughter at 40. Up until then, I was hard to the, you know, I am

2:35

trying to think nose to the grindstone career wise.

2:38

So I'd kind of climbed up the, the greasy pole and

2:41

was at the top of the greasy pole, but very much wanted

2:44

to slide that down again. Um, and so a lot of what I kind of write about kind of, I

2:50

suppose, the disparity between expectations and reality.

2:54

So kind of expecting the world to be one way, expecting

2:57

success to be one way, and then kind of realizing

3:00

that it can be another way. Um, and I think that's something that, uh, I'm now

3:05

in my late forties, I've kind of come to realize and

3:08

it's been a, a positive, you know, that, um, I, I kept

3:11

waiting for my life to start and it just didn't start.

3:15

And then I realized I had to start it kind of myself.

3:18

I'm curious about that, 'cause, you know, I've been

3:21

playing around with this idea of the midlife startup

3:24

and just messing around with some thoughts based on our

3:27

own experiences, myself and Laurence, in terms of just

3:29

taking the, the back roads of life rather than the

3:33

motorway in terms of the slow scenic route, and then what

3:37

that means in terms of just a kind of a more emergent

3:42

winging it approach to work.

3:44

When you say you were waiting for it to start,

3:47

what did start mean? Um, it's, it's interesting I think, um, because I'd done

3:54

all the things that, I suppose it's all, you know, as a Gen X

3:57

kind of generation school kid had been told, um, I'd sort

4:01

of done all of those things. So I'd kind of gone to university, I'd got

4:06

a fairly good degree. I'd got into a career.

4:09

I'd stayed in a solid job for 17 years, actually

4:13

staying with the same agency and had worked my way up to

4:16

sort of managing partner. So I was kind of managing an office with three

4:20

other people and, um, I still just kept projecting

4:24

into the future because I knew that I wasn't happy.

4:27

So I was. Earning quite a lot of money at that point.

4:30

Um, so I had all the kind of materialistic things.

4:33

I mean, I wasn't massively wealthy, but

4:35

I was pretty privileged. And yet I was also suffering from lots of

4:39

physical symptoms, so I was feeling like I had headaches all the time.

4:43

I was feeling grumpy and drained. I was constantly feeling like in meetings that, I

4:48

mean, I, I write quite a lot about this, how I was

4:50

almost disassociating so people would be talking.

4:53

I worked in market research and we did a lot of research

4:56

into big advertising campaigns or new products

4:59

that were coming out. And I'd often be sat in meetings, just sort of

5:02

doodling in, in the kind of exercise, but often quite

5:07

sort of saying often quite ridiculous kind of doodles,

5:10

you know, like drawing, you know, often drawing the

5:13

clients and sort of, there was kind of part of my personality

5:16

that was very much, um, suppressed in that role

5:19

because I couldn't, I couldn't show up and be my real self.

5:23

You know, I'd been like a very playful child, very sort of,

5:26

I suppose, quite outgoing. And then I feel like this kind of marketing career

5:30

capped some of that. And so I was kind of pretending that I was

5:32

someone that I wasn't. And so there'd be this inner voice all the time

5:36

that would be going, this is shit, you know. This me all was talking bol, you know, all this

5:41

stuff will be going on. And I think that's what was kind of causing

5:45

a lot of my symptoms, my physical symptoms.

5:48

'cause I was trying to squash that person down.

5:51

And actually I, I wrote a book, my first book

5:53

that I got published was about a woman who is struggling in her career.

5:57

And everybody within that narrative was, was

6:00

based on people that I, I did actually work with.

6:03

So I kind of, I found that quite cathartic.

6:06

But I think it was, Part of why this is, you know, sort

6:08

of called exploding your life is that it was an explosion in

6:12

that it was this realization that I'm not, I'm not happy.

6:16

I don't really know what to do about it. I know that what I'm doing at the moment

6:20

isn't making me happy. And and gradually trying to sort of discover what

6:24

would make me happy. And I have to say, 'cause some people might be thinking,

6:28

God, what an amazing position to be in that you can just

6:30

go and seek your Happiness. It wasn't like that.

6:33

I didn't kind of drop out and go to Tibet for six

6:36

months or anything like that. Afford to do that.

6:39

That's an option that's only open to a very

6:41

small minority, I think. I had to earn money.

6:44

So basically I just started to segue, um, doing sort of

6:49

some sort of writing online that was turned into a blog,

6:53

trying to sort of, um, do some social media stuff that I was

6:56

interested in and gradually, gradually started to sort of

6:59

discover work that I enjoyed. And I suppose the writing really, really helped.

7:04

And I'd, I'd definitely say if you are listening and, and watching and thinking, oh, I'm at a loss

7:09

about who I'm and what I want to do, start writing.

7:12

And even if that's just a load of brain dump mm, it's often a

7:16

really good tool to help guide you into sort of finding out

7:20

who you are and what you want. 'Cause I sort of feel that that's what I did.

7:23

I sort of discovered, I rediscovered this place inside myself.

7:26

Again, when I was writing, I realized I, I really enjoyed it.

7:30

And that's kind of kept me going actually. So I still work now.

7:32

So I still, I work at head of brand, uh, company.

7:37

It's another Startup called Jude who are amazing.

7:40

And I'm still kind of writing and I, but I think what's

7:42

happened is my attitude to work has shifted.

7:45

So I think now maybe other people will feel this

7:48

is true too, but I kind of feel like it's not

7:50

my core focus anymore. There's like me, there's my personality, there's my

7:54

work, there's my writing, there's my relationship,

7:57

there's my friendships, there's a whole other

7:59

load of stuff that exists. Whereas I think probably for the first 18 years

8:04

of my career, it, it was very narrow.

8:07

It was, it was really just work. And a partner, but it was kind of shopping.

8:13

That was it. It was traditional capital, you know,

8:16

things and that was it.

8:18

So I feel like it's much richer now. So work is just one aspect of, of my life.

8:24

I think that's an interesting part there, this whole

8:28

identifying with work, and that being the thing

8:32

that we, you know, we have this narrow focus.

8:35

It's all about the career or the job or

8:38

the things that we do. And I don't know if it feels like it's still a very strong

8:44

narrative, you know, while younger people are looking,

8:48

it feels like, um, new generation is just trying

8:51

to understand a different ex uh, relationship to, to work

8:55

and life and what it means to be successful, there's still

8:58

a very strong attachment to this idea of that work is

9:01

the thing that defines us. From your experience, why do we get forced down that path?

9:09

What is it that just narrows Our view and focus

9:11

are purely on the work? I think 'cause from, you know, when we are at school, the

9:16

first question that people ask us is kind of, what are

9:19

you gonna be when you grow up? And we are kind of, we are not necessarily encouraged to say,

9:25

I'm gonna be a great dad, or I'm gonna be an amazing lover

9:29

to my partner, or, you know, I'm gonna do all the domestic

9:33

admin around the house, or, you know, I'm gonna.

9:36

I, I'm gonna have two cats and I'm gonna love them to death.

9:39

Mm-hmm. Gonna write, you know, you're really encouraged to just see

9:43

yourself as your profession. And we carry that on when we go to parties, when we

9:47

meet other people, um, we tend to almost immediately

9:50

ask them, what do you do? You know, what's your job?

9:53

And we are still very status driven.

9:55

So there are certain jobs that we kind of. Might give you extra kind of Brownsey points

10:00

and respect and some jobs that might less so.

10:03

And certainly with me, because I was in market research, market research, a lot of people, when I

10:07

introduced myself and said I did that, they thought

10:10

I was one of those people with a, a clipboard who kind

10:12

of come and harass you in Tesco, you know, and ask you

10:15

20 questions about how your shopping has been that day.

10:18

And I used to always then sort of, I'd follow it up

10:20

with not that kind of market research, like I do other kind

10:23

of market research, and then I would try and name some of

10:26

the big brands that I kind of worked with and piggyback

10:29

onto their reputation. So I'd be like, oh yeah, you know, so I'm like,

10:32

my big client is kind of like Estee Lauder, you

10:35

know, I do like loads. So it's kind of, it was very much kind of, all of

10:39

my identity was tied up with work, but funny enough, I

10:43

didn't feel proud of, of that.

10:45

You know, I didn't feel, I would feel very empty inside.

10:48

So when I did use that as an introduction, I

10:51

didn't feel like, oh yeah. You know, um, because I think part of the problem is, is you

10:55

can never, you can, once you go down that route of purely

10:58

defining yourself by your professional success, there's

11:02

always gonna be somebody who's better than you in the room.

11:05

There's always going to be someone who is, has got

11:08

more money, a bigger house. You know, it's a, it's a very narrow definition.

11:13

And now I think once, one of the interesting things is when

11:15

I meet someone with a really impressive job, I always

11:18

think, oh, that's great. What about all the other stuff?

11:20

What about what's going on? And so, and, and often when I read profiles of people,

11:24

I'll notice that they leave all of that stuff out.

11:27

So they talk quite often about the daily routine of the,

11:30

the founder of the, you know, massively successful business.

11:34

But sometimes they, they leave the rest of it. And I'm like, well, who feeds your cats?

11:38

And, you know, mm-hmm. You know, what do you, what do you love doing with your kids?

11:41

And, you know, what's the thing that your wife gets really irritated about?

11:45

You know, what's your, you know, why can't we talk about those things?

11:47

'cause actually, the fact that you've done 16

11:50

conference calls while you were running on a treadmill

11:52

at 6:00 AM, I don't find that impressive, that level

11:55

of obsessive productivity is actually really damaging.

12:00

So I think, uh, hopefully now one of the things

12:03

that's happened, I think post covid is that people

12:05

are starting to think, I want more out of life.

12:08

You know, hopefully, I'm, I'm hoping that younger

12:10

generations are, are thinking, you know, I, I want to find

12:14

other definitions of success. And I do hear that amongst colleagues

12:18

when I talk to them. And they're all much younger than me, and, and

12:20

they do seem to be talking that kind of language.

12:24

Um, that, the trouble is, is that in London, you

12:27

know, living in London, you've got to earn a certain amount of money in order just to survive.

12:31

So it's still, it's still a really tricky one.

12:34

You can't suddenly go, oh, I'm gonna start a business selling

12:37

beanie hats 'cause that's what I really wanna do inside.

12:40

Mm-hmm. Um, so I'm always, yeah, I'm always cautious 'cause I sort

12:44

of think I, I still have to do, you know, and certainly

12:48

when I'm freelancing, I do a lot of work I enjoy and I

12:51

would, you know, I have to go and just do it just in

12:54

order to earn, earn money. And I think we all have to do that.

12:58

Um, but it's just, if you can, if you could do a sidestep into stuff you're more interested in, I

13:03

really think that's when you are more successful.

13:05

So, like my, you know, my books haven't made me

13:08

kind of a millionaire, but I feel, I feel more

13:11

successful since I've been writing and being published.

13:15

Um, much more successful than when I was a managing partner

13:19

and could you use that as a, as a term to describe myself?

13:23

So on one hand, there's this story or this narrative

13:26

about the, our self-worth and values defined by how much

13:31

we do or how much we have. Then the challenge I'm hearing with that is then there's

13:36

always someone who's done more or someone who has more.

13:39

And I think we talked about this a little bit in our

13:42

conversation before about this idea of comparisonitis.

13:46

We're always looking to compare ourselves.

13:49

So I wanted to touch on that before we maybe just

13:51

think about some other ways of thinking about success.

13:54

So from your experience of this whole comparisonitis

13:58

thing, what, why, why do we fall into that trap?

14:00

Um, I think as we expect to get the payoff, you know,

14:03

so if we've, if we've done what we were supposed to

14:06

do, we, you know, we got the job and we worked really

14:08

hard, and then we got the, the family and the house

14:11

and the car, then we want to feel successful and we want

14:16

to feel fulfilled inside. And so I think quite often we use that to judge other

14:21

people as well and to make ourselves feel better.

14:24

I mean, I, I think I sort of described it to you, I mean,

14:27

Miranda Sawyer, who wrote a really good book about sort

14:29

of being in your forties, she said, um, she's the only

14:32

one who doesn't have the box on the back of the house.

14:35

And, and the box on the back of the house effectively,

14:37

the kitchen extension that everybody has as another

14:41

kind of tick for success.

14:44

And they all look exactly the same.

14:46

So, you know, you go to your friend's house and you

14:48

go, oh, what house am I in? Am I in the, am I in, you know, Jackie's

14:52

house or Jean's house? 'cause they both are exactly the same, but

14:55

that's definitely a tick box for success.

14:58

And I get caught up in it too.

15:01

So I spent a lot of time really mourning the fact

15:04

that I didn't have the box on the back of the house. And then kind of realizing that.

15:08

In order to get that, I would have to go back

15:11

into probably a corporate kind of environment again.

15:14

And if I did my, my duty there and really got my head down,

15:19

I could have one of those. And then I sort of thought I, I've started now sort of

15:22

thinking, do I want that? And yeah, sometimes I bloody do.

15:25

Like, sometimes I do think, like at the moment we've got

15:28

a car and it's got gaffer tape holding the bumper on because

15:31

we've, we've not got round to fixing it and we've also

15:34

been budgeting and we've got loads of other stuff to do.

15:38

But I still find myself caught in that trap.

15:40

And we all have our personal triggers.

15:42

So your, yours might not be the box on the back of the house.

15:45

It might be meeting somebody and realizing that they've got

15:47

a holiday home or they've got a brand of trainers on that

15:50

you can only buy in Korea and they're like 5 million pounds.

15:54

Or, you know, you are all gonna have your, your flashpoints.

15:58

But I think I've got better now at kind of

16:00

taking a step back and thinking, what do you do?

16:02

What do you have to do in order to get that? And what, what do I really want that, is that actually

16:08

gonna make me, make me happy? 'Cause you can still be miserable.

16:11

I've got plenty of friends who've got enormous houses

16:14

and their marriages are just bullshit and their

16:16

relationships with their kids are not great and.

16:18

Mm-hmm. They're stressed. And so I think we all know that that's true, but still

16:23

we buy into it, you know, because the messages are

16:26

so strong and pervasive. You know, when we're on the tube, when we're watching tv,

16:31

that materialism and having a lot of material stuff is

16:35

what defines you successful and makes you happy.

16:39

And it's very hard actually. 'cause, you know, I, I, I was totally like that as a child.

16:43

I totally wanted to have all of that material success.

16:48

And I think it's only now that I'm realizing it, it

16:51

doesn't work, you know. Within reason.

16:54

Because the, the thing is we have to be very cautious that of course you need to have a roof over your head.

16:59

You need to have food. You know, these are all. The basics you need to have, you know,

17:04

I, when you say that, and you mentioned it before,

17:06

you like this being a very kind of balanced view

17:09

that I think of Maslow's hierarchy, hierarchy of needs.

17:12

You know, there's a certain, well we have needs for

17:14

material safety and physical safety, uh, in terms of

17:18

having food on the table and, and, and not feeling like

17:21

someone's just gonna walk into our house and steal stuff.

17:24

Funny because I'm still looking in the background and

17:26

I'm sort of thinking, I wonder what their kitchen looks like.

17:29

You know, I still, I mean, I'm still, I still have

17:32

that kind of schizophrenia a little bit where, you know,

17:35

I find it hard to not want, you know, not want those

17:38

things or not to wonder. You know, I have to, if I go and visit somebody, I've, one

17:42

of my best friends has got amazing, an amazing house.

17:45

And I go inside and I feel myself sort of sink, you

17:48

know, I feel, I feel like, I have all those voices, like, you're not successful enough.

17:51

You could have achieved this, but you haven't, you know,

17:54

you made some bad choices. All those things are coming up.

17:57

And then I'm sort of looking around and then I'm like,

17:59

I walk away and I still feel this horrible kind of

18:02

sense of failure, really. That's the only way I can describe it.

18:05

And then I sort of have to take a deep breath and sort of go, hang on a minute, you're getting wrapped

18:09

up in that thing again. Mm-hmm. And you need to stop.

18:12

Well, you said before you take, you, you, you've

18:14

been able to take a bit of a, well, a step back.

18:16

And so I'd be curious to, to talk about that. And I think given what we talked about, you know,

18:20

this, this magic number or magic number, a number.

18:23

We, we had some I. Comments about the, using the, the, the 40 number, because

18:29

for some people that's still very young, so, okay, cool.

18:33

And on the, we have the majority of people here,

18:37

the overwhelming majority are here, are 40 and over.

18:40

There's this thing around, and I remember when I was

18:42

young, I couldn't wait till they get to the age of 40

18:45

for some reason in my head, once I was at 40, it would be

18:48

all fine, you know, sorted.

18:51

And, and there's this, like, up until then it is, I dunno,

18:55

there was, it was gonna be a rollercoaster ride.

18:58

And then you hit this age of 40 and you're supposed to have done certain things or whatever.

19:02

It's, is it achieved, got the certain job, it's got some

19:06

certain type of lifestyle, you know, whatever trappings that

19:10

modern life is giving you. But even then, like you're saying, we fall into this

19:15

behavior of thinking, oh, I haven't got enough, it

19:19

isn't enough because someone else has more than me.

19:22

It's funny 'cause I have a whole lot and I noticed that

19:25

Ray has said about kind of a thought spiral and sort

19:27

of when you, when you get caught, caught up in that.

19:30

And really, I, I mean I love self-help books and I've been

19:33

reading them from a very, you know, I probably was reading

19:36

self-help books when I was about eight, nine years old.

19:39

And through, throughout that period of time, I've kind of

19:42

gathered a whole lot of tools. And some of them are things like, um, exercise, like

19:48

just going and, you know, doing a, a walk outside.

19:52

Some of them is actually being with my, you know,

19:54

being with my kids. There's a kids just walk in here.

19:58

Some of it's just kind of like doing that.

20:01

Um, sometimes it might be doing some breathing.

20:04

Like I, you know, I do have an app on my phone and I

20:07

try and basically do a bit of meditation now and then.

20:11

So it's kind of, there's a whole variety of tools

20:13

that I kind of use. And that gets me out of the catastrophizing.

20:19

That's what I would call it. Well, there's, there's something for me there

20:22

about being present. So the link I'm making to this whole comparisonitis and maybe

20:28

just, this, these unpleasant feelings that we may get

20:31

when we go and see someone who's got a nicer kitchen,

20:33

a bigger house, a nicer car, and more holiday homes.

20:38

Like you said, sort of like there's a self-criticism

20:41

or regret because of an actions that we

20:43

didn't take in the past. Or there's a kind of a looking to the future of

20:50

like, okay, what does that mean in terms of where am

20:53

I gonna be if I don't have this house or this space?

20:57

These kind of like thoughts that take us out of like

20:59

experiencing what we're experiencing right now.

21:02

I mean, I've, I've written about this quite a lot, kind of in the eighties there was this whole idea

21:06

that, you know, you could have it all, you know, you

21:09

could, as a woman anyway, that you could kind of, you

21:12

know, Shirley Conran wrote this amazing book, which

21:14

actually was misinterpreted, which was, I think it was called Superwoman.

21:17

So it was all about, you can have the career, you can have the kids, you can have the relationship, have

21:21

the friends have them, you can have the whole thing.

21:24

And I certainly kind of absorbed some of

21:26

that information where basically I thought I

21:29

could have it, have it all. I do talk quite a lot about kind of people pleasing, and

21:34

I think that's, that's another thing about doing the things

21:37

that you don't love, you know, judging other people

21:40

on kind of material things. It's all sort of tied in with that notion of

21:45

wanting people to like you and sort of judging

21:47

other people and stuff. And a big thing for me, I think was just that post

21:52

40 I experienced a, you know, more recently I've

21:56

experienced kind of literal kind of losses in terms of,

21:59

you know, my dad died, um, very unexpectedly sort of

22:03

probably just two years ago. Uh, you know, I had fertility treatment in my forties.

22:09

These, some of these kind of medical sort of things

22:12

and losing people, I think actually those things,

22:15

unfortunately, even though you don't choose them, they bring

22:17

you into the present because you are, you are having to,

22:21

and you're, you're basically gone from somebody who's

22:24

kind of preoccupied by the meeting that they've got that

22:26

morning to actually thinking about really big questions,

22:29

which is like, what happens if, if I die tomorrow, will I

22:34

be, will I be satisfied with what's happened thus far?

22:38

You know, with my parents dying now, are they, it it

22:42

sort of sets you off on a path of looking backwards

22:44

and thinking about their lives and were they happy

22:46

with the path that they took? And so I now find that actually some of those really

22:52

deep, quite heavy things has helped me stay present.

22:55

'cause even with things, I mean, you know, even

22:58

things like grieving for example, um, it's a

23:01

very visceral sensation.

23:03

You know, you do, you kind of feel, you feel quite heavy.

23:07

You can be crying, you know, you can be very up and down.

23:10

And I sort of, I think now I'm much more, maybe

23:14

that is through practicing some of the mindfulness.

23:16

I'm more in tune with my emotions and sort of

23:18

like my feelings and, and not avoiding them.

23:20

And I think a lot of the behavior before I was

23:23

basically avoiding feelings. So I was running all the time.

23:27

I think a lot of working people are that, you know,

23:30

people say that to me now. They're kind of like, you, you, you find it very hard

23:34

to relax and that's true. Um, and that's, that's something I learned from

23:37

my own parents that we didn't prioritize rest.

23:40

We just didn't, you know, you were only, you had

23:43

to be busy all the time. Um, now I think I've probably got better

23:46

at noticing that too. So sort of going, hang on.

23:49

You are really, you are, you are, you're getting really

23:52

sucked into that busy thing and you need to come back

23:54

into this, this moment now.

23:57

Um, something, I mean, it's very hard, but I think

24:00

you all, you just have to practice it, you know?

24:02

Um, and unfortunately life circumstances can

24:05

force you into it too. Another factor around the busyness is that how, like

24:10

we were saying before, our value and our self-worth is

24:13

tied to how much we do and, and how impactful or how broad

24:19

the impact of that doing is. Whether that's, you know, managing people in a company

24:25

or being a TED talker, But this whole idea of

24:30

not stopping, and being, because it then means that

24:36

we have to feel stuff or these feelings come up.

24:40

And, you know, talking about grief and how I think some

24:44

people try suppress it. And I've been very, um, guilty of just like try to push away

24:48

the feelings because I didn't know what to do with them. It's like that, ah, this feels really horrible.

24:52

How do I put, how do I, what do I do with this?

24:56

How do I, what, what is this supposed to, what value is

25:00

this to me to feel shit?

25:04

But then there's something around how I think I'm seeing what I'm hearing is I like, actually it's just the

25:09

processes, feeling shit is is the what you need to do.

25:13

But also, I mean, that's something to not, I mean it depends what your sort of spiritual beliefs are.

25:18

But the level of shit that you feel, certainly when you miss

25:20

somebody is really reflective of how much you love them.

25:24

So it's really comes back to, now I'm starting to

25:27

realize that now, is that my productivity, productivity

25:32

really took off after my dad died and I, in

25:34

lockdown, I wrote two books. I launched a podcast.

25:37

I was just going mad in terms of doing stuff,

25:41

and I was totally trying. I mean, now I look back on it and I think, oh, we

25:44

were just totally trying to avoid feelings and it was

25:47

a complicated situation in, in the situation that he,

25:50

you know, circumstances, it wasn't easy, um, because he

25:53

had a problem with addiction and he was an alcoholic.

25:56

So there was all sorts of other issues as well. Um, but now when I get these heavy feelings, and I

26:01

do get them still, because that's the other thing with

26:03

grief is that people often think, oh, you get over it.

26:06

You, you never do. I still strongly believe that, you know, 10, 20 years on, you

26:10

have these very, very strong feelings of, of, of loss.

26:14

Um, I'm now much better at recognizing, but you know,

26:17

that's, this is normal. Not only is it normal to feel like this, this

26:21

is a reflection of the fact that you loved your father, you know, and he loved you and that, and

26:25

you are missing that love. That's the absence of, of, but the love is

26:28

actually still there. It sounds really cheesy, but I'm still carrying that.

26:31

It's just that I don't have anyone to sort of

26:34

bo it back to me again. Um, so I think once you sort of accept that it's, it's

26:40

normal and it's natural. And I would say if anyone, you know, if anyone is grieving,

26:44

it's really helpful to sort of find resources that, that

26:47

are kind of filled with other people who are going through

26:50

it because there's an awful lot of kind of, yeah, you feel

26:54

so much better just knowing that it's a, the feelings that

26:57

you're having a a, a normal whatever that means, um.

27:01

Hmm. But I guess, yeah, that's definitely, definitely

27:03

made me more present. But definitely thinking about my parents and their

27:07

definitions of success. 'Cause they, I think both of them were kind of

27:10

workaholics pretty much. Um, and so now I sort of think, well, it's not

27:14

surprising that you grew up to be a workaholic too.

27:18

Um, you know, and, and like you've already touched on,

27:21

we, we respect workaholics, you know, um, but we have

27:25

this strange thing where we sort of go, you know,

27:28

hope you're keeping busy. That's another thing that people say, oh,

27:30

you're keeping busy. And if you said, no, I'm not keeping busy.

27:32

I'm just sitting in the garden doing absolutely nothing, you

27:36

would be judged, you know? Um, so there's this whole, apart from the kind of

27:40

what are you gonna be when you grow up, you know,

27:43

the kind of keeping busy. And then there's this whole notion around kind

27:47

of judging one another by how much stuff they have.

27:49

You can see how we get caught in these narratives.

27:52

Um, and it's hard to, to jump out.

27:55

And even with my, when I write my books, I still

27:58

want to have success. I still want to.

28:01

You know, I have mad fantasies where I wanna be on Oprah's

28:05

Book Club and you know, I wanna be, you know, I wanna

28:08

be as big as Marian Keys and, and what's that all about?

28:10

Why can't I just be happy just writing?

28:13

Um, so there are still, I still kind of wanting

28:17

to be successful. But I guess what, what I want now is to be

28:20

recognized for the things that I really enjoyed doing

28:23

versus for something that didn't really feel like it

28:27

was me and my best work. You know, I was, I was sort of trapped in someone

28:32

else's body for a long time. One of the things that we, we've been exploring, um,

28:39

the Happy Startup School in our programs and our coaching

28:43

is this connection to needs.

28:47

And so, a way I would interpret what you're saying

28:49

before about the feelings, you know, the feelings of grief,

28:52

feelings of loss, feelings of sadness, 'cause there's

28:54

this need for connection with someone with your father

28:58

who's no longer around. And then how identifying these things, these feelings and

29:04

what they connect to in terms of these needs are, are ways

29:07

to navigate our way forward and understand what, what kind

29:11

of actions we need to take. And I'm linking that to this, you know, we're talking

29:16

about how do we navigate the second half of life, let's

29:19

put it this way, given that we've used a certain compass

29:22

in the past, uh, which was this objective measure of

29:25

success based on some kind of numeric, uh, approach.

29:29

You know, you, we, we talked about, we, we've been led

29:32

by other people's metrics. What is your, now, now your process of defining

29:39

that and working with that? You said about doing stuff that you love and

29:42

being known for that. How you, how, what is it that's, helping you

29:46

define those things? Um, it's an interesting one.

29:49

I mean, one of the exercises that I find really helpful,

29:52

like I said, is writing a lot. So using writing, not just writing for publishing, but

29:57

just writing for myself. What I've found is that when you write, there tends to be

30:02

a, a gut kind of feeling which points you in the direction

30:06

of the thing that you want. You know, you're sort of like, oh.

30:09

The more that you write, the more you're kind of like, oh, this is how, you know, this is what I love doing.

30:12

This is kind of how I feel. It helps identify what you don't want as well.

30:17

I mean, I wish I kind of, what I wish is that

30:19

I discovered way earlier. 'cause I mean, there may be people who are listening

30:23

and they're kind of like, That little voice that's

30:25

on your shoulder that's going, this is shit. I hate it.

30:28

I hate this, this, this jerk is driving me mad.

30:31

You know, I, I wanna, you know. All those thoughts, listen to them.

30:35

Don't just go right, I'll have some booze and that

30:38

will shut that one up. Or, you know, I'll go and have an affair with someone

30:41

and then I'll feel better about myself, or whatever

30:43

those things are that we use to numb or escape,

30:46

listen to that voice. And I think all that's happened with me is I've got

30:49

better at listening to it. And then I, once I, once I listen to it, sometimes that

30:54

voice isn't right, by the way. 'cause sometimes the voice can be like, you're really

30:57

shit and you are a failure. This is another voice, which is really your

31:00

gut, which is kind of telling you who you are.

31:03

Um, and if you're feeling increasingly every time

31:05

you go to work, feeling like the real kind of, it's

31:08

not coherent with who you are, then listen to that.

31:11

Um, and I think that's all I've probably done.

31:14

But I've also had to take direct action. So I basically had to, you know, I was lucky that I

31:18

was made redundant from work, and within that

31:20

redundancy I got a payout. If I hadn't got that, I wouldn't have been able to

31:24

then embark on a sort of hybrid career of my own.

31:28

Now almost every decision I make is driven by the

31:31

fact of financially. Is it rewarding enough that it's worth my while?

31:35

Or is it something that I would love to do? So like, you know, if I love doing something, I will do it.

31:40

And does it feel like the gut voice is going yeah, that's

31:42

great, that's brilliant, you do that, then I do it.

31:45

Um, if it's really financially rewarding, I do it.

31:48

If it's neither of those things, then I don't do it.

31:50

Um, it's kind of the older you get, the better you

31:54

get identifying that. So you're kind of, you know now, I used to spend

31:59

a lot of time because I was very much in the sort

32:02

of Instagram world where there were so many people

32:04

pre covid where it's like, let's go and have a coffee.

32:07

You know, let's go and have a coffee. And I would go and have coffees with a million

32:10

different people. And now I'm just like, no, I don't wanna have a coffee.

32:14

Like, I'll be completely frank with you. But unless there's something happening out of this,

32:18

like, be it a friendship, I, we feel some sort of gut

32:22

risk connection that we're gonna be friends or there's

32:25

some work coming out of it, which is gonna be well

32:28

paid or it's gonna be some creative pursuit that I'm

32:30

really into, I'm not into it. Do you know what I mean?

32:33

I won't, I won't do it. And I think through using that kind of traffic light

32:37

system of red, you know, Amber Green for everything,

32:41

life gets a lot easier and you just find yourself doing more of the thing.

32:44

And it's funny because I'm now at a bit of a crossroads 'cause I've kind of realized I've written

32:48

five books and they've been published, but I'm not living

32:51

off the proceeds of that. So I'm now at the point where I'm kind of, I could

32:55

write another book, but actually what I want to

32:57

do is take some time and reflect what I want next.

33:01

And obviously I'm working at the same time, but it's

33:03

kind of, am I gonna just keep on writing books?

33:06

Am I still happy writing books and not getting a sort of

33:09

salary out of it, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, what do I do?

33:13

Um, and it's interesting 'cause actually it's the two things.

33:15

It's kind of the material, you know, there is still that materialism about wanting to be a Sunday

33:21

Times bestselling author. But yeah, I, I mean, I actually think for anyone

33:25

who's kind of in their 40, not 40 or is just in

33:28

early forties, I really do strongly believe that life

33:30

gets better as you get older. Um, and I didn't believe that for a long time.

33:35

And for women, I think aging in particular is

33:38

a really quite a tricky thing to navigate.

33:41

But I do now. I do, I sort of, I sort of, as long as you're lucky

33:45

enough to have your health, I think in terms of your

33:49

clarity on what you want, it becomes much, much clearer.

33:54

And that's why they call it the midlife crisis often,

33:56

is that it's the, it's the snake shedding its skin.

33:59

You know, the old, the old sort of skin comes off and the

34:01

new snake comes out, whatever. Probably not a good analogy.

34:05

Um, but you do feel, feel.

34:08

You know, you're like, right, I've got no time for bullshit.

34:11

I don't wanna waste time having coffee with people I don't like, you know, I don't give a

34:14

shit about your big car. You know, you can drone on about your holiday, but

34:18

I'm not gonna listen to it because I know that's not what I want at the moment.

34:21

And you sort of, yeah, I think you do.

34:24

You just become much, much lost, less tolerant of, uh,

34:28

certain things, which, which makes your life better.

34:31

Sounds like you are a point now of reflection.

34:35

You know, you're saying, okay, well given everything

34:37

I've done so far, where do I want to go next?

34:41

And I, I, I've come to value that much more

34:45

recently in terms of not the incessant doing and,

34:49

and, and just plowing on, um, though stopping and just

34:54

thinking, just feels, and I, I still have a bit of a

34:57

reaction to it 'cause it, it feels a bit too passive.

35:00

But there's something here around, given what you said

35:02

before, there's something here around feelings. There's something about just, just checking in,

35:07

and then, then being able to, to carve out the, the

35:12

right strategy, the right path for the future based on

35:15

what you've learned so far. And it could be a completely different path because

35:21

you think, okay, you know, this isn't working, so I'm gonna do something else, um, which I think is

35:26

challenging for some people. And so, a question I had was really around how

35:31

has your tolerance for risk evolved over time?

35:37

I think it's really interesting when we think about risk.

35:39

'cause I think I was really risk averse, which is

35:42

obviously why I stayed in the same job for so long.

35:45

Um, but because I came from a, you know, we are all,

35:47

we, we are the way we are because of our childhoods.

35:50

And I think my childhood, we moved a lot.

35:53

We lived in different countries. My parents were divorced.

35:56

Um, we had what would be described as a bohemian

36:00

sort of upbringing. You know, I have something like upwards of, I can't even

36:04

keep count six to nine sort of step and half brothers.

36:08

You know, my mom's married three times. I mean, none of that's judge judgy, but what I wanted

36:13

instability for a long period of time actually,

36:15

that's what I wanted. And actually now, I mean, children come into it actually

36:20

is that now I'm probably more, um, open to taking risks.

36:24

You know, like now I'm even considering like, do I wanna

36:26

move to a different location? But the children are now the big factor of kind of like,

36:31

is that gonna be okay or not? Uh, what about that?

36:34

You know, I think they're much more cautious now.

36:36

My parents really did not, I don't think they, they were

36:39

not inconsiderate, but they did, they lived their lives

36:42

and children lived with them. They didn't live their lives for their children, which

36:46

is what we tend to do now. It's like everything we do is driven by what they need.

36:50

They've got a play date, we all go to the play date. They've got an activity.

36:53

We all get activity. Some of it, I think is not particularly

36:56

healthy, um, necessarily.

36:59

But yeah, I think to your question, I'm, I'm probably, I wish I was, I could take more risks, but

37:04

I've now got, you know, I have to consider them too.

37:07

I can't just go off and do whatever I fancy, you know.

37:10

So maybe I'll take kids out of the equation then,

37:12

because that is a very specific pace, case in point.

37:15

'cause we have, uh, well, there's a sense of

37:17

responsibility, uh, not only for their physical wellbeing,

37:21

but also their emotional wellbeing and how these, how,

37:24

how the choices we make in the present will potentially

37:27

impact their futures in all sorts of ways, and I, and

37:30

that's, that's an interesting thing there for me. But at a personal level, you said, you know, your,

37:36

sounds like your appetite for risk is be, is greater.

37:39

How has your relationship to risk changed?

37:42

Why are you feeling, forgetting the kids that

37:44

you'd like to shake things up or you're happy to

37:47

shake things up more? I think basically, um, probably, the age that

37:51

I am probably losing my father had a big role in

37:54

that because I think I, I, I realized that I'd had so

37:57

many conversations with him around the things that he

37:59

was gonna do when he retired. So he was like, you know, when I retire I'm gonna do

38:04

this and I'm gonna, he, he always used to say, when I retire, I'll write a book.

38:08

He was a doctor in philosophy, so he was like an academic.

38:11

And he died without having, he didn't retire.

38:14

He didn't get to retire the year that he was supposed

38:16

to retire, that it happened. And I think the whole notion of retirement is weird anyway.

38:22

'cause it's kind of like what you're gonna live your whole life, not enjoying yourself, just so you can sit on a

38:27

cruise in a Hawaiian shirt or smoking a cigar and then die?

38:31

It's kind of, it's just weird. It's like you're storing up just for

38:34

that retirement moment. Um, but I think for me now, I've sort of felt, look,

38:38

you know, it sounds really grim, but you know, death

38:41

can come at any moment and we never really know

38:43

what's gonna happen to us. And as we get older, we just, we have no, no idea.

38:47

And so it is a bit of that cliche of I've got to do the

38:50

things that are gonna make me happy and fulfilled now

38:53

because I can't, you know, I might be exactly the same.

38:56

I might retire and pop my clogs the next day, you know?

38:59

And then, you know, I'm kind of, I'm often trying

39:02

to keep that perspective now of, I think, along

39:05

with my own voice, there's also my father's voice now

39:07

sort of saying, listen Nik, you need to get a move on.

39:10

You know, do the stuff that you wanna do because

39:13

you know, you've, it's, I haven't got that long left,

39:16

you know, on the planet. And so you can't keep putting off like thinking,

39:19

you know, I kept thinking, I thought, you know, when I'm 40, I kind of had this idea that, you know, I was

39:24

gonna be living by the coast. You know, I thought that might have happened,

39:27

it hasn't happened. That's kind of one of the things I really wanna do.

39:31

I wanna go and swim in, like in the sea.

39:33

I haven't really, you know, I haven't done that. I like the idea of doing that.

39:36

I like the idea of, you know, sampling

39:39

life outside of London. I've lived in London for a long time, but I'm starting to

39:43

fall out of love with it now. But the other problem is that I have this whole idea that

39:48

when I live there, I will have a different life and

39:50

my life will be completely different to the way it's now.

39:53

Suddenly I will turn into a very active sport, you

39:58

know, sporty, outdoor person.

40:01

There's something about having children that we also need

40:03

to consider when it comes to our work and how fast

40:07

we wanna move with work. So I just wanted to just help invite you to touch a bit on

40:11

that to just, for anyone who, who is having, who does have

40:16

children and they are trying to do something different or

40:19

move forward with a change. Yeah, I mean I found it really tough in that I'd had

40:24

so much of my life without children and then suddenly

40:27

to, I think a lot of men and women find it tough.

40:30

I think they traditionally, they always say it's tougher

40:32

for women, but I think it's for both in that you suddenly

40:36

can't, you have to slow down.

40:38

I mean, you've got to, they've got this little thing that you've got to look after and you've got

40:41

to, everything's around their routines and stuff.

40:44

I still kind of haven't got it entirely sussed out.

40:47

The one thing I do know is that I couldn't, I

40:50

wouldn't be able to function if I was staying at home with them all the time.

40:53

Like, I know, I know that for myself. Um, 'cause I know that, and I'm lucky enough in that

40:59

'cause a lot of, you know, childcare's so expensive. I'm lucky enough that I can earn enough to pay for

41:03

childcare, 'cause that's a big, that's a big thing for

41:06

a lot of people, you know, childcare's so expensive.

41:09

, I feel the eternal guilt all the time because I'm always

41:11

feeling like whenever I'm doing something for myself,

41:14

I feel like I could be doing something for them. And the other thing which I think we're all familiar

41:18

with is there's just so much admin that goes around

41:21

looking after children. This kind of, there's obviously being with them,

41:24

but then there's this, all this other shit, like kind

41:26

of, you know, we've got lots of WhatsApp kind of

41:29

channels, which is partly why I started taking the piss out

41:31

of WhatsApp on my Instagram because I was getting sort

41:34

of upwards of kind of 15 messages a day about is it

41:37

PE day, is it World Book Day?

41:39

Can you bring a card in for the teacher? You need to log onto this platform and, and do a

41:44

donation, 'cause there's a workshop happening.

41:46

Um, can you, you know, I don't know, there was just so can

41:49

you volunteer for the PSA? You know, all of this really quite, some of it's

41:52

really good, obviously. We need to do that stuff, but I felt like it's a lot of

41:56

unpaid work and I'm sure if there's moms who are watching,

42:00

and I know we touched on this before, unfortunately, a lot

42:02

of that work can fall onto the mother rather than the father.

42:06

So the mom has a, a job then it's unpaid work, which

42:10

is organizing her kids. You know, entire universe, every day, even thinking

42:16

ahead, it's boring stuff. It's like, is there clean socks in the drawer

42:19

because they've gotta go to school tomorrow. You know, where's the Brownsey uniform?

42:23

Um, I end up doing this thing when I'm at work

42:26

where I'm WhatsApping other mums, 'cause my partner's

42:29

at home and he's got to get one of them to brownies.

42:31

So I'm basically organizing his childcare at work

42:35

whilst I'm in a meeting. And this is one of the bug bears where I think

42:38

there's loads of interesting books about it, where

42:41

that's a big distraction. You know, if women, you know, I'm pretty sure that

42:44

Cheryl Sandberg doesn't deal with that, you know,

42:46

and I mean, I know she's a controversial figure, but

42:48

I think if you, women could probably achieve far more,

42:52

if they weren't continually being dragged down.

42:54

It's like having big, massive stones in your

42:56

pockets every day that you are sort of carrying around.

42:59

So certainly when they're, it's been a

43:02

massive compromise. 'cause I feel like I, I, I, I discovered what I wanted

43:06

to do and then I had kids, and the kids have slowed

43:09

me down significantly. But, you know, I chose that and I was lucky

43:13

enough to have, you know, to be able to have them. So, um, people keep telling me it gets easier.

43:18

Um, but I dunno if that's true. I dunno if it is true.

43:21

I think that's a myth. I it is, it is true.

43:24

It is true. It gets different and it does get easier.

43:26

Um, I just wanna bring in Laurence, 'cause it, well,

43:29

from my, I I had my second child when we just started

43:32

the Happy, Startup School. And I think, um, my wife has a different opinion

43:37

as to whether that was a good thing or not. Um, We were lucky we both had kids around the same time

43:43

when we were growing our business or starting it.

43:45

And so, We were lucky.

43:48

I think that we had similar goals and visions for

43:51

how we wanted to work as co-founders together, which

43:53

I think is quite rare. which probably helped that we were friends before.

43:58

Um, but yeah, I think it's, it's a new phenomenon.

44:01

I think this idea of, like you said, putting our kids first.

44:04

My dad always said, they've come to live with you, not the other way around.

44:07

And that was one of the things that stuck with me. Is like, don't change anything because you've got kids.

44:11

Just, they'll, they'll follow you. So if you wanna go make a change, go make it.

44:14

Um, which sounds easy, right? It sounds so easy, but I think it's really hard to.

44:18

Yeah, I love that. I do love that advice though. I think that's really, but that's how my parents

44:23

behaved very much. Um, you know, so we did, we traveled a lot.

44:28

But it's just having that bad, it's like being able to be free, but also offering them that stability.

44:32

'Cause I think, uh, that was something that I felt like I

44:34

lacked was, it was kind of, I, I I wanted to have a kind of

44:38

very traditional upbringing. I wanted to have, you know, I used to say to my mom,

44:42

I'd go like, oh, you know, I want mum who's like, wears a pinny and makes me cakes and stuff, you know,

44:47

a mum's got pink hair and a nose ring and is like going

44:50

off to Nicaragua, you know? So It, it is hard, but I think it's good for them

44:55

actually a bit of change. 'cause they're gonna have to navigate change, you

45:00

know, numerous times. And also, I think the final thing I'd add to that, I

45:03

mean, we work with a lot of people who are, like you said, navigating this transition, let's call it.

45:07

I always just say to people, I always just think if you can be the best version of you, then that's good for the kids.

45:12

Even if it means maybe they sacrifice something

45:14

in the short term. You know, it might not be, they get all the, the best

45:17

trainers or the best of everything, but hopefully

45:20

you'll be a better person around them and longer term it's better for them.

45:22

So, I don't know, I think there's sometimes we have

45:25

this responsibility of they'll expect everything as we

45:27

need to put them first, but. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think that's always good for them.

45:31

If the collateral damage of that is we end up doing

45:35

something we don't wanna do, which is not good for anyone.

45:37

Yeah. And and then they're seeing you 'cause they're gonna

45:40

model themselves on you too, so they're basically seeing

45:43

you not living the life that you want and thinking

45:46

Exactly. That's okay. Yeah. There's something here around any resentment

45:50

that colors anything that you do for your kids.

45:52

I think if there is any of that element of resentment, then that's gonna come across and, you know, whether, if you

45:57

have to sacrifice going, doing something so that they can

46:00

do something for themselves. Um, there's also the whole material aspect of things

46:05

and wishing that they could have certain things.

46:08

Uh, my, my feeling around this ultimately is if

46:11

they can feel confident in themselves, um, because we're

46:14

all destined to fuck up our kids some way or the other. Mm-hmm.

46:17

But ultimately the, for me, if we can make sure that no

46:21

matter what, they feel that someone there loves them and

46:26

is always there for them no matter what and loves them

46:29

for who they are, they might not get everything they want,

46:31

but they will get what they need, which is essentially a, a solid foundation of self-confidence and, um,

46:37

self-awareness even hopefully. Yeah.

46:39

Is also the, the ability to apologize.

46:42

'Cause that was something that, I mean, I've screwed up quite a few times.

46:45

I, I find that often in the mornings, yeah, I'm

46:49

struggling in the mornings to get them both ready

46:51

and out and everything. Um, and I think sometimes when I'm in that position I

46:56

just apolo I do apologize, which I, I'm not sure my

46:58

parents did that often. You know, they didn't, if they did screw up, um, yeah.

47:03

Well, it's, I think it's about being human and

47:05

letting them know that we are human as well. 'cause then they don't feel like a, we're on this massive

47:10

pedestal and though everything that we say is gospel.

47:13

Um. Yeah, I think there's an element of love, respect, but

47:16

also them to realize that it's okay to get it wrong.

47:20

Because if they don't think that it's okay to get it wrong, you know, the classic thing you won't learn.

47:25

I'm conscious of time and then Laurence needs to go

47:28

and pick up his son to be a, a responsible father.

47:32

Um, is there anything that's happening in that you'd like

47:36

to point people towards? If people wanna get to know you, where

47:39

would you like to go? To the best place? Well, if they could, I would love it if they

47:42

could go on Amazon and they'll, they'll see a,

47:45

an array of books there. Um, they can pre-order one of my books, um,

47:49

which is out in August. That would be fab, um.

47:52

Nice. It's a big quit. If they wanna just have a bit of a laugh, then I would

47:56

say, go on my Instagram, which is just at Anniki

47:58

Sommerville, all one word. Um, because basically you can just watch a woman

48:02

in wigs tending to be different on WhatsApp.

48:06

Brilliant. I think that's, that's probably, it's a

48:08

bit of light relief. I mean, that's something we didn't touch on, but

48:11

that is very important too sometimes is not to take

48:14

ourselves too seriously. Well, if we can't laugh of half, uh, half of the things

48:18

that we have to experience, particularly as parents and the challenges we have to face and doing the Work Parenthood

48:23

balance, um, yeah, it's just, it gets desperate then.

48:27

Uh, so, well, thank you very much Anniki.

48:30

Uh, if anyone listening to this is curious

48:33

about, Anikki's work, the links are in the chat.

48:35

Being amongst other people who are navigating this

48:38

whole thing as well. Um, to feel connected, I think is the other thing

48:41

we want to, to create with this conversation.

48:44

Awesome. Thanks Nikki. Thanks everyone. Until next time.

48:46

See you everyone. You take care. Thank you.