0:01

hard shoulder with kieran holidays

0:03

with nissan on news talk

0:05

you're welcome back there's

0:07

here and co to he with you until at 7 o'clock

0:10

i am absolutely delighted to be joining in

0:12

syria this cities thursday interview by

0:14

robert harris the prolific author,

0:16

his latest book active oblivion is robert,

0:19

a nasty, pleasure thanks a million for the

0:25

backdrop

0:27

to the book is this of political

0:30

turmoil a in england

0:32

and run across these islands actually if

0:34

her effort being accuracy and

0:37

so i suggest were in a period of political turmoil

0:39

at the moment ah yes receipt

0:41

of in in a bit as permanent state of revolution

0:43

for that six years so getting

0:45

very exhausting what have you made of

0:47

the elevation is liz truss

0:50

the

0:52

i haven't made that much of it rarely

0:54

of civic try to keep my eyes averted

0:56

and i've kept my head firmly in

0:58

the seventeenth century which is seems

1:01

to me in many ways of preferable period to live

1:03

in so yeah

1:05

i mean we'll just have to wait and see but

1:07

it's becoming england as britain's

1:10

first having been famous for his political

1:12

stability enough for promises

1:14

and six years this is the sort

1:16

of thing that the bet it is used to mock continental

1:19

congress for it it does is strange

1:21

pattern desire developing were

1:23

people don't get what they voted for or never get

1:25

it for a short period of time know you that you

1:28

are like camera new under a trace made

1:30

you like theresa may and you end up with those

1:32

johnson new and advice johnson you and that

1:34

were less trust his psychosocial shifting

1:37

game of hide

1:39

the prime minister and minister and

1:41

very weird as his to but in of

1:44

and we're going to have a period of unprecedented

1:46

turbo not just in politics

1:48

but of course in world affairs and

1:51

with had pandemic because the energy

1:53

crisis and these these difficult

1:55

times what is the root of that

1:57

turmoil

1:59

the

2:01

i think it's those a cyclical patton

2:04

and human affairs and we've had read a

2:06

sixty seventy years pretty peaceful

2:10

life compared to past

2:13

generations and it you just

2:15

sometimes feel that the paste is gradually

2:17

abs away and you start to live in

2:19

revolutionary times and times

2:21

feel that we've got lots of things all sort of

2:23

going on now all at once

2:26

i'm once i'm novice as a pandemic

2:29

has been a huge world event which we haven't

2:31

yet i sing and tonic some midterms

2:33

with the effect it's had on the world

2:35

economies and on chamberland

2:37

people behave how to behave very irrational

2:39

am and russia's behavior i suspect

2:42

in some respects is down to

2:44

puritans isolation during cove

2:46

it seems to have been bit started

2:49

behavior on the strangely and this the strangely having

2:51

great knock on effects that energy

2:53

and i'm on this economists have already

2:56

struggling because of the pandemic and are struggling

2:58

even more because of the energy crisis

3:01

and is that how you would describe these times

3:03

at revolutionary revolutionary

3:07

or turbulence i

3:09

, like to predict how it will end but

3:11

often pandemics have followed by periods

3:13

of great change and and

3:16

so we're living in that era now positive

3:19

change i

3:22

think you will be bumpy the

3:24

but you know i'm not an unnecessarily

3:27

pessimist because i

3:29

think previous generations of

3:32

surmounted worse challenges

3:34

them we face at the moment spirit in

3:36

a dead to be no shortage of people do is talk

3:38

about say the rise of populism and

3:41

than does is speaks

3:43

to democracy being under stress

3:46

not just here in europe

3:48

and russia but the states as well and

3:51

there they they are often accused and in turn

3:53

of hyperbole and i just wonder

3:56

you know given the several of your novels

3:59

are setting

3:59

and the backdrop of kind of democracy

4:02

being under threat or that status quo being a band

4:04

is and isn't he did do

4:06

you think they're guilty of hyperbole

4:08

do you think democracies under threat i do

4:11

think is under threat her is probably

4:13

always under stress at it's quite a rare

4:15

state in human existence

4:18

democracy a lot of countries haven't had a very

4:20

long and it's

4:22

wide open always to abuse

4:25

as if it's and it's can be pretty fragile

4:27

system especially nowadays

4:29

when this no longer and a consensus about safe

4:32

and way you have political candidates

4:34

such as said trump and belsen our

4:36

own in brazil who are deliberately

4:39

casting doubt on the electoral process process

4:42

even before they are like some takes place

4:44

some that their supporters can be energized

4:46

and that never used to happen and mm

4:49

people used to the saw the like a game of cricket

4:51

to notes as a captain shook hands

4:53

at the end of the game and walked off the pitch according

4:55

to you know if you're out you're were out mountain

4:58

know those rules and no longer apply didn't

5:00

as to do we take it for grant us as

5:03

with my bare or is that is that the human condition

5:05

the you always assume that the conditions

5:07

that exist in and around you will

5:10

exist in perpetuity exactly

5:12

in mean exactly roads to trilogy

5:14

of knows about sister knows about really all about

5:16

the collapse of on it appeared to be a very stable

5:19

constitutional settlement

5:21

or the by the republic collapsed

5:24

and m you know it

5:28

things change i'm in the soviet union disappeared

5:31

nobody really expected it to come so friendly

5:33

but it disappeared britain ,

5:35

out of the european union nobody knows

5:37

said most serious commons has never expected

5:40

that to happen but it happens trump was

5:42

elected president of the united states nobody

5:45

very few people would have predicted that

5:47

and ah in ah now

5:49

the whole existence of the united

5:52

states as an entity it's

5:54

quite seriously under threat i'm a monk

5:56

and gameplay so

5:59

to situate them which it no longer exists

6:01

in it's present form but

6:04

, know nothing does last forever

6:06

i'm in everything changes and

6:10

how

6:12

you know we have been human condition assuming this a

6:14

things exist in perpetuity how aware are

6:17

are are people that they are live in

6:19

a time of to i mean speed go back to the cicero

6:21

trilogy i mean scissors acutely aware

6:23

of the stress to the roman republic

6:26

am and right to be wary

6:28

of at it was replaced by in own

6:31

a system that by an emperor that

6:34

in ssl put during those two

6:36

seismic changes the shift from

6:39

the public to empire and then empire to

6:41

the unit that the fall of yes that that the fall

6:43

of rome as it's describes

6:46

the army peasant farmer in and rounds

6:48

role might notice huge made a difference or

6:50

allows them yo you know what when did when

6:52

it roman empire collapsed i wasn't there was a hazard

6:54

collapse yeah i know exactly know

6:56

for most people's lives will go on

6:59

the

7:00

undisturbed by by by a

7:02

change in democracy they won't go on

7:05

undisturbed though by an economic collapse

7:08

or pandemic those

7:11

are going to fit those will reach out and

7:14

touch everyone the

7:16

definitely feels the says something in the air

7:19

i mean i felt that now for some years

7:21

and a lot of my novels of address this very

7:24

issue , that what seems

7:26

solid beneath our feet am actually

7:29

consume give way but let's talk

7:31

about your latest novel an

7:33

act of oblivion it is it's

7:35

a chase still as i'll let you you give

7:38

the blurbs has a lot of as okay

7:41

okay act of oblivion was a piece

7:43

of legislation that was introduced in english

7:45

parliament and the some of sixteen

7:48

sixty when charles the second

7:50

the from exile

7:52

and became the new king and it was a deal

7:54

essentially between parliament and the king

7:56

the whole taking

7:58

up arms against the king oh any crime

8:01

that have been committed and civil war

8:03

would all be forgotten but

8:06

the one thing that was not added

8:08

to this acts of oblivion and forgetting

8:11

was anyone who's had a hand in the

8:14

death , the king of charles the first

8:16

and then he wanted sign the desk long to anyone

8:18

who sat in as a judge judge

8:21

the kings trial was required to surrender

8:23

to the kings masses they called it

8:26

this this amounted to some scores of

8:28

man those that surrendered i

8:30

quickly wish that i am fitness nut

8:32

wasn't the best out of out ah

8:34

on a lot of others went on the run you

8:37

know they ran to holland and switzerland

8:39

and germany and the to that i follow

8:41

in my novel colonel wall intel colonel

8:43

goff they flee

8:45

to new england's they they cross

8:48

the atlantic and them a

8:50

became fascinated by this whole story

8:52

and i invented a man who

8:54

coordinates the hunt for the

8:56

scores as both fugitives

8:59

ah and he has both fugitives animus

9:02

against bolland golf and he goes after

9:04

them his coat richard naylor and

9:06

the novelist mostly true

9:08

about their life on the run when

9:10

but i've just m personified

9:13

the person who's coming after them and

9:15

at one of the mechanics in

9:17

the novel is that s and

9:20

wally is our wally is

9:22

is rising this accounts

9:24

this memoir for his his

9:26

wife who i think of died actually

9:28

a job he doesn't know he's right into

9:30

account for her of his time

9:34

fighting with chrome while and those final days

9:36

and leading up to the trial and is that that's

9:38

your way of setting the chase story but

9:40

also offering some commentary an insight

9:42

into this

9:43

the an incredible period i mean these two guys

9:46

father law and son in law while

9:48

a or wally nobody knows quite how

9:51

to pronounce it why it read it saying way

9:53

they have ya know the last couple of moments in

9:55

understand why am i let me tell you i

9:57

said i think you're right because that is

9:59

that kind of the arms was three spouse in

10:01

wales we still suggest unless

10:03

they were not calling them walls that

10:06

, was actually wally and that would have saved

10:08

me a lot of misery because i kept finding myself

10:10

nearly rising where's wally wally

10:13

book or free weights volley

10:15

is a cromwell's cousin

10:18

than the new on another very well he commanded

10:20

of well group of cavalry in

10:22

in them so most regiment and

10:25

the he also had custody of charles the first

10:27

when the was captured by the army so the

10:29

was perfect position to write a memoir

10:31

and lot of these guys did write memoirs

10:33

are just beginning of the age of

10:36

of of publishing and memoirs

10:39

and he had a

10:41

lot of time on his hands because he and his

10:43

son in law basically hit out in bonds

10:45

and in assets and sellers even

10:48

sometimes out for months at a time

10:50

in the open it's

10:52

a story of survival run

10:54

a his son in law is quite a different kinds

10:57

of to him it med while

10:59

he was sixty and sixty and

11:02

under mm on a moderate rarely her

11:04

son-in-law it was forty was

11:07

a much more of a five round and a millennia

11:09

list and he believes that christ

11:11

would becoming again to us he

11:13

had all that are all those beliefs said

11:15

they were there an odd couple the

11:19

and the they play off one another

11:21

so as stable as they try to survive

11:24

and did they character they character well

11:26

as is as a central to all of the events

11:29

it is a peripheral tighter in the sense that

11:31

you know he's on he referred to

11:33

the wally through this

11:35

memories writing secretly is a fascinating

11:38

character and it's in an office as because he is

11:40

kind of reveres in

11:42

large batches the united kingdom

11:44

in england he is reviles

11:47

on this side of the irish sea yes

11:49

it's a curious fact that the cromwell

11:51

statue stands outside the houses of

11:53

parliament in london

11:55

which he did more to disrupt and

11:57

shut down then

11:59

any anyone else if he if he didn't like

12:01

what i was saying he dissolve parliament and a

12:03

one time he turns out and the point

12:05

of a gun they are not have a republican

12:08

in that sense the taliban and he was certainly

12:10

a sunday wanted the ace is priceless

12:12

we should cut off the king's head with the crown upon

12:14

it meaning that we're not only kill

12:16

him will kill the institution it

12:19

quickly became apparent that the

12:22

people wouldn't follow a parliamentary committee

12:24

that they there was no kind of binding loyalty

12:27

and the state and

12:29

he took over as lord protector which is effectively

12:32

military dictator and would

12:34

have accepted the crown i mean that you know

12:36

there was talk of a crumb well dennis day and

12:38

he would be king all over but

12:40

, the and the army wouldn't give him that

12:43

the army was much more radical ah

12:46

and in the end when you took this huge

12:48

personality what he loved him or los

12:50

dem no one could doubt the cromwell was the cromwell

12:52

figure once he was removed from the scene

12:55

whole thing the point i'm very

12:57

glad neither of

12:59

my men on the run while

13:01

a or golf came on the sixteen

13:03

forty nine expedition to ireland

13:06

and indeed while he opposed it from the

13:08

start is on the record as saying the should not

13:10

be a punitive attack

13:12

, the irish but have never

13:15

took any notice of it the

13:18

i know chrome well was

13:20

i mean that the irony is he he seems

13:23

to have caught malaria in ireland which plagued

13:25

him for the rest of his life and ultimately contributed

13:27

to his death by [unk] ,

13:29

[unk] fridays off yeah and

13:31

then that most i got him i'm

13:35

the the i'm republic

13:38

as it exists at the i mean it's it's strikes

13:40

me a maybe i'm wrong because this is a period

13:42

of history that i wasn't necessarily

13:44

aware of but are i get the sense

13:47

it doesn't get the attention across

13:49

the board may be

13:50

it deserves a certain age you know

13:52

i think

13:53

this may be true kind of as most of people would know

13:55

an awful lot more about the tutor years

13:57

and they would know about as good as

13:59

the

13:59

scroll much as the second yes definitely

14:02

i am earnest it is you're right it is

14:04

a curious thing of course is the romance

14:06

of they to the period the six

14:09

wives and and the has angle months

14:11

of of emotional love and

14:13

politics and then elizabeth as

14:15

a very striking as ,

14:18

the queen of a figure for modern age

14:20

reading lists dominant woman

14:24

woman it's is peculiar that the

14:27

the english revolution which is

14:29

what it was the republic which

14:31

not only changed of the islands

14:33

the british isles as it were including on

14:36

the relative ran out across

14:38

the world because britain became with

14:40

became huge army with a powers

14:42

of the first time with a military dictator

14:45

and a big navy and an expansionist

14:47

project in the caribbean on across america

14:49

this is the start of the modern

14:52

world as well as oh the scientific developments

14:54

stone you know you had new

14:56

tenants on in in a

14:59

in london so it isn't incredibly

15:01

dramatic an important

15:02

here in world history and

15:05

and full of drama and

15:07

why is been neglected

15:09

i'm not sure i suspect having grappled

15:14

with my nose it is it is a

15:16

very complicated story and actually

15:19

i've been lucky that the chase structure

15:21

that i have enables me

15:23

to give the reader the reader

15:26

i hope page turning story

15:28

was to the same time i can go back and look

15:30

at what happened before so i can select

15:33

it but writer from beginning

15:35

to end civil war novel would be

15:38

that would be very hard and i

15:40

think is full of religious difficult moves

15:42

presbyterians versus puritans

15:45

and song which a lot of people would

15:47

find quite hard isolated take what

15:49

what i found really engaging as i was this

15:51

and vision of of the

15:54

us is with describe it not new england's

15:56

at the times of into that

15:58

was a

16:00

you're in society wasn't us

16:03

very much so there's much to the new haven

16:05

yeah this is the small

16:07

sounds pushing out across new

16:09

england all settled within the last thirty

16:11

years or so i'm ,

16:14

named after places in england england

16:17

that was extraordinary and i say only

16:19

rarely with pretty fanatical

16:21

religious hell could have could

16:23

have withstood it really was

16:25

very very hard life in

16:28

this and this abundant

16:30

but quite hostile wilderness

16:33

and them and that really

16:35

flavors the books i mean they have to trek

16:37

across new england then they face lions

16:40

and bears and a

16:42

walls and a the

16:44

that you're never quite sure whether the native

16:47

americans are going to be friendly or not

16:49

i mean in the book climaxes rarely with a

16:51

war with with the indigenous

16:54

indian population so it's

16:56

, yeah it's tough on

16:58

you can see in that world where

17:01

modern america comes from the

17:03

dna of america is forged in

17:06

society , going to ask if you can draw a

17:08

not a steady a straight line but a continuous

17:11

mine from that

17:13

no puritan settlements to

17:15

the religious fervor that still such

17:17

part of the tennis political tapestry

17:19

their yes definitely i'm in the craziness

17:22

the to small have a drink

17:25

there's a t new can't drink until you're twenty

17:27

one

17:28

that you can go by any kind

17:30

of a powerful assault rifle data

17:34

the that sort of

17:36

out all the row v wade being

17:38

overturned an abortion they may much more difficult

17:41

this is at a time and the rest of the world including

17:43

ireland geminate making more available

17:45

or the fact that we're still towns in new england

17:47

that a dry on get a drink ah

17:50

, that's typically appears

17:54

and appears the religious rights

17:56

infatuation with israel because they

17:58

believe that israel will herald the

18:01

coming of christ and the rapture and

18:03

the the earth which is again

18:05

from the millennials few of

18:08

the extreme

18:09

range of garrisons know

18:11

you can see it the importance

18:14

religion in american politics

18:16

and on the supreme court of that fundamentalist

18:19

kind of christian religion

18:21

that is put that in the 17th

18:24

century if you want to understand

18:26

bit more about how it was put there if wanna

18:28

to know a bit more about the civil

18:31

war years and the republic

18:33

if you want just a good chase story

18:35

which is what this is active oblivion is the name

18:37

of is i have no robert harrison

18:40

absolute pleasure thanks for joining us next,

18:46

my thanks to the production team of the hard shoulder

18:48

to alex russo roshan davis to katherine

18:50

keane and decaying mike aquila

18:52

going beat him a light were i'm saying i'll be back tomorrow

18:55

at 4 have good eating folks, the

18:58

hard shoulder with kieran cut, hay with

19:00

miss on, weekdays from 4,

19:03

on newstalk