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1:12

Welcome into the All Ball Podcast. I'm Doug

1:14

Gottlieb, and remember you can you

1:17

can listen to The Doug Gotlieb Show every afternoon three

1:19

to six Eastern time, twelve three Pacific XM

1:22

Serious two O three and two seventeen.

1:24

Don't ask me in which one you can find

1:26

it. We're on the same channel

1:28

as Dan Patrick on Sirius XM.

1:32

And of course you can go to Fox Sport Tradio dot

1:34

com. You can also download The Doug

1:36

Gotlieb Show daily on iTunes

1:38

wherever you downloaded this podcast. Remember

1:40

too, what is it to download,

1:43

subscribe and to rate our podcast?

1:45

Because I don't think it helps me financially, but it helps

1:47

my podcast rank ratings

1:49

or whatever. And the

1:51

downloads have been great. Listen. I'll leave the final

1:54

four with this. It was seventy six thousand,

1:56

six hundred two people. That was great

1:58

basketball four amazing

2:00

stories. I don't know how Auburn

2:03

got to where they should have gone to the national championship

2:05

without Chumakiki, but they probably

2:07

should have. Right. Virginia

2:10

is the national champion, coming from losing

2:13

to Maryland

2:15

Baltimore County to winning an ASS championship

2:18

amazing and then the way in which they won their

2:20

last three games, Michigan

2:22

State losing Josh Langford, losing

2:25

two pros, Heck nick Ward getting hurt, and

2:27

then winning the Big Ten, the Big Ten Tournament,

2:29

beating Duke, going to a final four

2:32

and coming back and having him ball in the air

2:34

down three chance to tie the game

2:36

late. Incredible. And

2:40

then Texas Tech, who lost four starters, and

2:43

like I think the world of Chris Beard. I

2:45

would only say this with Chris Beard, if

2:47

I could, I could make one change,

2:50

I would have taken out Odiosi after he made

2:52

the free throw to put him up three. I know they switched

2:55

five all year long,

2:57

but he gets beat. And then I don't know

3:00

why Culver, you

3:02

know, leaves the best player

3:04

on the floor in the corner open for a

3:06

jump shot instead of given up the easy two. They

3:08

would have had a one point lead. But they're

3:10

college kids. This happens, and

3:14

I thought, ultimately it costs them. Obviously, there were

3:16

some calls that went the way of Virginia. I

3:18

also, I'm gonna play for you something that

3:21

you might find interesting. This was Tony

3:24

Bennett on my radio show,

3:27

talking about a conversation he and I had

3:30

after the college basketball season last

3:32

year when they lost to Marylyn Baltimore County. You

3:34

bring up Key and he did have a huge

3:37

championship game, But I also think it speaks to you

3:40

and your ability to read

3:42

the game on the fly because Keay

3:44

struggled, you know a little bit with

3:46

their size, with their length, and really they're just older guys,

3:49

right, he mean, he's a kid there. They're grown men.

3:51

And I thought you made and

3:54

they kind of changed their lineup. They went to a little bit of a

3:56

small ball lineup and it caused

3:58

you to change. Was was that

4:01

part of your plan um to play

4:03

Key that much in the championship game or is that something

4:05

you felt as the game went on. I

4:08

felt that as the game went on. And Doug, I'm gonna give

4:10

you some credit. You and I had a conversation. You

4:13

know, we go back so many years. You know, our

4:15

fathers were both you know, legendary

4:17

coaches who've poured so much into us.

4:20

And after last year's UNBC game,

4:23

you know, you and I talk. I can't remember if we did an interview

4:25

or not, but you talk and you challenged

4:27

me and encouraged me that

4:29

you know, obviously, like everyone would grow

4:32

from this game. But you know, can you can

4:34

you find ways when the tournament comes

4:37

to play differently even through the year, try

4:39

different things, whether it's offensively or defensively

4:43

or lineup wise. And I

4:45

remember that conversation and I and I knew

4:47

we had to do that because you know, obviously

4:50

we were good last year and DeAndre

4:52

Hunter allowed us to play small, and

4:54

then when DeAndre got hurt in the NCAA tournament

4:56

before that, we couldn't. We didn't have that

4:59

four guard lineup. Well. This year, when

5:01

Braxton and Key got eligible, I knew at

5:03

times we're gonna be able to play Key as a five

5:05

and Drey as a four or vice versa, and a

5:07

real small lineup. And then against Perdue,

5:09

we needed to go big with Salt and Mamady,

5:13

so you kind of challenge me. We added

5:15

some things and I really tried to think hard

5:17

about that, and I thought, in tournament

5:20

runs, you need to be able to have the versatility

5:22

to mix things up offensively or defense.

5:24

We used the offense against Texas

5:27

Tech in the championship game that we hadn't hardly used

5:29

all year because they ran a different

5:32

kind of defense with the way they forced it. On

5:34

the side and switched, and so you

5:36

have to have those things ready in those situations.

5:40

So yeah,

5:42

you know, look, I don't want to get

5:44

into fouls. By the time you download

5:46

this podcast, you probably forgot about the blow

5:48

by both the play by play of different

5:50

things. I will say this, and

5:53

I'm sure I'm annoying to a lot of people

5:56

who I'm friends with in college basketball, text

5:59

back and forth with Ironically all

6:01

four of these teams. I

6:03

worked a little bit for Bruce Pearl, I know Stephen really

6:06

well. Uh Dane Fife who is going to be our

6:08

guest, and coaches. I communicate

6:10

with them often throughout the season. Tony Bennett

6:12

don't communicate as much with but we go way way

6:15

back. My dad, of course, was the coach at

6:17

UW Milwaukee. His dad's

6:19

a Wisconsin legend. He's always been super

6:21

kind to me. At

6:23

some point I'll have him on this pod and we'll talk about

6:26

how Clay Thompson became a Washington

6:28

State Cougar. I'm forgetting.

6:30

Oh, and then Chris Beard has two

6:34

former local and state assistant coaches and head

6:36

coach Sean Sean Sutton

6:38

on the staff, and I'd become pretty close with coach Beard

6:40

as well. So I know all of these guys, and

6:43

so I'm probably annoying to them, and that I do text them

6:45

and call them and give you let's not give you my

6:47

two cents. Sometimes another set of eyes. It's

6:50

valuable. And I always tell him like, hey, listen, if you don't

6:52

if I don't know, I'm talking about fine. But

6:55

what I told Tony Bennett,

6:58

what I encouraged Tony Bennett to do, I was like, look, I

7:00

think your style of play is fine.

7:02

I think you're going to get to a fun four. I

7:04

think you've got a chance to win a national championship.

7:07

But I think your percentage chances

7:09

increase if you continue

7:12

to add to your offensive repertoire.

7:14

Remember, here's the guy who played overseas, here's

7:17

the guys playing in the NBA. And

7:19

it's not for lack of knowledge. It's just

7:22

you can't simply depend on blocker mover

7:25

and not have other tricks in

7:27

the back. They went to some ball screen continuities.

7:30

This year, they've put in more NBA

7:32

sets. Of course, I think most of the college basketball

7:34

world loves one of their elevator plays

7:36

that they ran. But

7:39

more than anything, I encouraged him.

7:41

And this is just a general philosophy I have in

7:44

life, but especially in sports, which is, hey,

7:47

the goal of a team when they're preparing

7:50

for you is to make you play left

7:52

handed, make you do something that you might

7:54

be uncomfortable doing. And oftentimes

7:57

coaches will fall back on, well,

7:59

you know, it's a bad matchup for us, it's just a

8:01

bad matchup. That's what it was. We lost

8:03

because it was a bad matchup, and

8:06

that's reasonable. Sometimes there are certain styles, certain

8:08

teams where you just don't match up well against.

8:11

You know, you just got limitations based upon

8:13

your personnel. That's going to happen. On

8:15

the other hand, I remember I was

8:17

I was covering I don't want to tell you the team's

8:20

name, but I was covering a team this year and

8:23

at the end of a game, they

8:26

ran a play for a shooter

8:29

for a left handed shooter, and

8:32

he came off of It's one of those plays

8:34

I call it the nail when you drive to the

8:36

base in instead of throwing the hammer, you'd

8:38

come back behind you and the shooter from

8:40

the top of the key comes to shoot the basketball.

8:42

Well, they ran that play and left handed

8:45

player shot fakes and even though the right to

8:47

go to the right was open, he wanted to come back to

8:49

a strong left hand. He went back to the defense it wasn't

8:51

as open. They lose the game. And

8:54

so when I talked with the

8:56

coaches afterwards, I was like, hey, just question,

8:59

why didn't you on that to the other side of

9:01

the court. And they're like why. I was like, well, this

9:03

particular player is left handed. He likes

9:05

curling off the screen, you know,

9:08

moving to his left, and

9:10

then if he shot fakes, he likes one drouble to his

9:12

left. That's a that's an eighty percent shot for

9:14

him. He's like, wow, we

9:17

had never had

9:19

though that that lineup in

9:21

that position of a game to run

9:24

that play. And

9:27

I thought to myself, well, whose fault is

9:29

that right? And

9:31

again, this is the general philosophy I have, which is like,

9:33

especially a coach like to So this is why I told told

9:35

told I do it. This sounds really arrogant.

9:38

I didn't win him a national championship. I didn't

9:40

tell m anything profound that he probably didn't already

9:42

know and challenge himself. But this is a thought that I

9:44

have, which is, you know, look,

9:47

challenge yourself to sometimes

9:49

create artificial adversity. Take

9:52

a look at a different lineup, Take a look at

9:54

guys at different spots, not just in practice,

9:57

not just in scrimmages, not just in exhibition

9:59

games, but in real games. Take

10:01

a legit look at a small lineup, Take

10:03

a legit look at a big lineup through

10:06

three point guards out there at once, press

10:09

what does it all look like? Because you don't

10:11

know in a one and done scenario or

10:14

playing for your league championship, how

10:17

somebody's going to try and make you play, or

10:19

what type of matchup may ultimately

10:22

expose what you normally want to do.

10:25

And if you don't have a second

10:27

gear or a third gear or a you know, a different

10:30

If you don't have that, then what you

10:32

do can become stale, and

10:35

people spend all year figuring out whoa

10:37

what do you do? And how do we do it? How do we they

10:40

say, how do we stop them from scoring? And how do we score

10:42

against them? You know, I understand

10:44

the pragmatism to hey, listen, I just want to win

10:46

this game and don't win

10:48

this game, But sometimes you gotta play the long

10:51

game. You got to develop a bench, you

10:53

got to develop a small line up, You got to develop a big

10:55

line up. You got to develop a pressing line up. You got to develop

10:57

a what do we do against the zone, and what

11:00

do we do when we can't do that against his zone? Because

11:03

you know, my best shooter or my guy bet

11:05

who was best in the high post, he's in foul troup,

11:07

or he's sick, or he broke a pinky finger or whatever,

11:10

and so yeah, I encouraged him to run more some more

11:12

ball screen stuff, because like Dane Fife

11:14

is going to tell us, kids grow up learning to play

11:16

off ball screens, and yet we're retraining

11:19

them when they get to college to teach him how to play

11:21

motion game. At some of these schools, you gotta

11:23

sometimes play with some of their strengths. Tony did that.

11:26

But I would readily admit

11:28

I'm super annoying as a fan and a friend

11:31

and a basketball guy to so many of these coaches,

11:33

and I text them suggestions and things that I think.

11:35

We have long conversations, and generally

11:37

it's to continue to watch and evolve.

11:40

And yeah, you always have your base, you always

11:42

have your core ethics, you always have your

11:44

offense, you always have your defense. But

11:47

there are going to be times in which you gotta

11:49

change. I believe bo Ryan would

11:52

have won a national championship had he had

11:54

a different way of playing the ball screen against

11:57

Tias Jones and Duke, but they

11:59

always kind of lat hedged and sunk and

12:02

Thias Jones hit jumpshot after jumpshot

12:05

jumpshot, and people can tell me, well, it's

12:07

the officiating with Duke, like, no, it wasn't. Tias

12:09

Jones just made shots because

12:12

Wisconsin played true Pac line

12:14

defense and unlike Virginia.

12:16

Virginia plays pac line principles, but they

12:18

hard hedge ball screens. So

12:21

that that was my conversation with Tony Bennett,

12:23

and you can hear that conversation and it's entirety

12:25

if you downloaded part of the Doug Gottlieb Show.

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14:53

All right, Let's get to our guest of the week. His name is Dame Fife.

14:56

He's a longtime assistant Michigan State. It's also a dear

14:58

friend of mine. It was tremendous

15:00

player. Dad was a coach. Dad is a coach,

15:03

and I just think his his story

15:06

is a really, really interesting one and it kind

15:08

of tells the story a little bit about Michigan State basketball

15:10

this year. Um okay, so

15:12

let's start. Um. I always

15:15

love to do this. You grew up playing basketball

15:17

where? Wow?

15:20

Like, like, did you have a park? There

15:23

was a gym? Like your your first

15:25

basketball memory is where Clarkston

15:28

High School gym? My dad was a high school coach,

15:31

and I just go to practice every day, shoot

15:34

on the side all day. Okay,

15:37

So, uh, did the side hoops

15:40

have fan backboards or did they have wood

15:42

backboards or regular glass

15:44

backboards? I

15:47

grew up on glass backboards.

15:51

That's nice. That's a nice gym right there to have side backboards

15:54

that are nice glass, square, square

15:56

backboards. What what? What? Uh?

15:58

When your dad, obviously long time

16:00

coach, I mean, you even have a kid plays

16:03

for you now played for your dad? What's

16:05

he like? My

16:07

dad? Yeah? As a coach, well,

16:10

he's nuts. He grew up in the

16:14

post World War Two era where

16:18

the heroes were General

16:21

Patton, like eisenhowerd

16:24

Um. You know, the the

16:28

Armies and the Navies got

16:30

a lot of good athletes, and

16:34

so he was. His

16:38

favorite coach was probably at the time

16:40

Coach Night, coach Bob Knight, and

16:43

so um, I wouldn't

16:45

say he was. He

16:49

didn't use a lot of follow language or really

16:51

yelling atting people's faces, but he was.

16:55

He was very structured, very organized,

16:57

and he believed in playing with maximum

16:59

effort every second you're on

17:01

the court. He always told me if I

17:03

don't care what you play, I think he did

17:05

care. But if you're gonna play,

17:08

you're gonna do it your best, whether it's checkers

17:10

or basketball. And he held

17:12

me to that. And my brothers, Um,

17:15

now, your brother Dugan just see you know, um,

17:19

he not only he has a better name than you,

17:21

such a good name that

17:23

that one. It's memorable, right,

17:26

And he played at Michigan, and

17:28

you know, growing up, Doug and Doug was like you

17:30

know, like that. The negative nicknames were like Doug

17:33

slug or a Doug the little

17:35

bug. And I was like, no, no, No, call me

17:37

Dugan. Like there was a time when

17:39

I was like, actually it's more duke guy, go by

17:41

Dugan. They're like, no, that's Dugan Fife. You're

17:43

not You're not Dugan. Um,

17:46

what's it like to have it?

17:48

Like? Was he a nice big my big brother Greg

17:51

who's an assistant coach Oregan State. Um?

17:54

He was? He was? He would vacillate

17:57

between being an awesome big brother

17:59

and a terrible big brother. I

18:01

think sometimes I was the friends that he would keep,

18:03

but like, hey, we're gonna go meet at Jordan Elmentry

18:06

and shoot hoops, meet us there and then I'd go there

18:08

and there literally be nobody there right just to get rid

18:10

of me, or lock me out of the house, pants

18:13

me when we were in our

18:15

friend's pool and throw my shorts

18:18

up on the roof and then invite

18:20

other people over. So what was your

18:22

big brother like? Rotten? And

18:26

because I'm sure there's young people listening,

18:30

I would say that probably

18:32

until Dugan went off to

18:35

college, he was six years older than I was.

18:38

He was probably the worst big brother

18:40

that a little brother could have.

18:42

And I was the baby Jeremy who's we're

18:45

all three years apart, so Jeremy's a

18:48

middle child, but

18:51

Dugan was the worst big brother up until

18:53

about his nineteenth birthday.

18:56

Even then, he came home and during mid

18:58

season in his freshman year at Michigan, and

19:01

we were out shoveling off the basketball

19:03

court in our backyard. It was just a small

19:05

court. We shoveled it off

19:07

and I hit him in the lip on accident, playing

19:09

him one on one, and he pushed me down

19:12

and rubbed my face in the snow. And I was probably

19:15

about thirteen at the time,

19:17

but there wasn't a day

19:19

that I didn't plan to

19:23

somehow make Dugan

19:25

disappear in

19:27

my in my youth. It's

19:31

awesome. Um, well,

19:33

if if Coach Knight was your dad's hero,

19:36

and it's interesting because I don't know if

19:38

you know this. So my dad was a walk on into the

19:40

House State a JV player during

19:42

the same air when Bob Knight was there and

19:46

they were kind of on again, off again friends,

19:49

but he also looked up to Coach Night.

19:51

And although Coach Night, I don't

19:54

know, he didn't really recruit me. It

19:56

wasn't really My dad never wanted me to play

19:58

for him, not because of how he was, but more

20:00

because of how he played like that wasn't

20:03

right. But why didn't Dugan go

20:05

play for him? Well,

20:09

Dugan, um, my dad

20:11

played at Michigan. He

20:14

was with Rudy tom Janovic and just after

20:16

Kazzie Russell. But my

20:18

dad played at Michigan, and my

20:21

dad played pro baseball with the Twins

20:23

and then came back and was an assistant at Michigan.

20:26

Ironically, he was on the bench

20:28

when Michigan lost Indiana in the seventy

20:30

six National Championship. And

20:35

so when Dugan was young, Dugan was

20:37

born in seventy four, he

20:42

experienced Michigan

20:44

basketball up close and personal. And

20:47

so when he was young, four or five, six years

20:49

old, until my dad stopped coaching at

20:51

Michigan, he

20:54

was he was those those were

20:56

his heroes. So you

20:59

know that was ingrained in him when he was really young,

21:01

and we just we always went to Michigan football

21:04

games, Michigan basketball games. My dad

21:06

was good friends with Bill Frieder, and

21:08

so I

21:10

think it was just a foregone conclusion that

21:13

Dugan was going to go to

21:15

Michigan, And there

21:17

was never a doubt on anybody else,

21:19

with exception to maybe Michigan State

21:22

may be Stanford. Um,

21:25

I don't think that Indiana recruited him very

21:27

hard if you want the truth. Okay,

21:29

So then what about you? You're

21:31

a big score in high school, right and

21:35

um, I'm getting and because

21:37

of because your the respect that your

21:39

dad had, because of the because of your

21:41

brother being a hell of a player, like it

21:43

wasn't you were very heavily recruited.

21:46

Why did you go to eye you? Well,

21:50

it's funny because the very first

21:52

VHS tape that I that we ever

21:55

that I ever watched. I remember getting our VCR

21:57

when we were in eighty

22:00

five or late late nineteen,

22:03

but the very used to have to press the button down.

22:05

You just have to hold the record. There was the

22:07

the it was like I don't know, I don't know how you consider

22:09

those buttons, but you actually had to press the button

22:12

down right. The record button was always

22:14

the last button he had to press down right. And then

22:16

the remote control had a chord,

22:19

so we did we did get one with a remote,

22:21

but it had a chord. Um.

22:24

So so the very first VHS tape

22:26

that I watched was Michigan versus Indianna

22:29

for the Big ten title and this was Freeder

22:31

versus Night. Um,

22:35

I think Roy Tarpley was a senior.

22:38

Uh, Steve Alford was a junior. But anyway,

22:40

I just remember listening to Billy Packer

22:43

and Brett Musburger talk about

22:45

Bob Knight with

22:48

such interest, and it

22:51

was fascinating just how much they revered

22:53

Coach Knight and his personality.

22:55

And Steve Alford m

22:58

and Michigan ended up telling him. But

23:02

it stuck in my mind. And then came

23:04

the movie Hoosiers, and

23:07

that representative of everything that my

23:09

hometown pretty much was small

23:12

school, single school,

23:15

just me and my friends, just

23:18

dream of winning a state championship.

23:21

That was my dream, winning a state championship

23:24

for my dad. And so you

23:27

know, either way, I think

23:29

that Indiana started

23:32

recruiting my sophomore year. Dan Dockets ironically

23:35

was the first Indiana

23:37

coach to start recruiting me. But I

23:40

was just a dream of mine too, you

23:44

know, when I was young to just go play basketball

23:46

at Indiana for Coach Night, and Coach

23:49

Night I viewed

23:51

as was similar to my dad, his

23:54

offense, his defense, his principles.

23:56

My dad talked about him a lot. I

24:00

felt like, you

24:02

know, at an alternate universe, Dugan probably

24:05

would have went and played for him, too if

24:08

Michigan didn't exist, because Coach Knight

24:10

represented what

24:12

what the game was to hard work,

24:17

championships, doing

24:20

it right. You know, there

24:22

wasn't a lot of a

24:25

lot of cheating going on in his program.

24:27

It felt like we were just going to get an honest environment

24:31

that was going to make you better. And

24:34

that's what that's ultimately

24:36

what it was even when I went there. Okay,

24:39

so you show up first day on campus

24:42

at Indiana, what do you remember. Well,

24:46

my roommate was Luke Wrecker and Kyle

24:48

Hornsby from Louisiana. Kyle Hornsby

24:51

was a well

24:53

just he was a country boy,

24:55

and Luke Wrecker was a

24:58

sophomore. But the first

25:01

thing that I saw was Coach Night's silver

25:03

Lincoln. It's the first thing I remember. And

25:06

then moved

25:08

into my apartment and

25:10

then we played Open Jim and

25:15

I was fearless and here I am a McDonald's

25:17

all American thinking, I'm really good, and uh,

25:21

what made me good is that I understood the game.

25:23

I felt like I was way advanced. And

25:25

you know that as a son of the son of a coach,

25:28

it's a blessing and a curse. You

25:30

know, we are advanced, but then we think

25:32

we know everything and we're stubborn. But

25:37

I've gotten where I was by playing

25:39

hard, playing with effort, playing tough. And

25:41

so the first day of open gim I

25:44

ended up squaring off with a

25:46

with a six to eight, two hundred and thirty

25:48

five pound twenty

25:50

three year old named William Gladness. Yeah.

25:52

We nearly got him in Oklahoma State. I mean

25:54

he was a junior college transfer. We nearly got

25:57

him in Oklahoma State. We always like, we're like, man, we get

25:59

William Gladness, will be right. Yeah,

26:01

And and uh, you know,

26:03

I was always thankful that guys broke it

26:05

up before there were any conscient prone But I, oh

26:07

I did was set a screen on him.

26:09

Now will Is who's who's

26:12

passed away? But um,

26:15

great guy. But interesting enough

26:18

about will Is when you'd set a backscreen

26:20

on him, you know, screen him from behind, I

26:22

had to be careful because he had a bullet

26:25

lodged in his spine, and

26:27

so apparently i'd

26:30

hit that bullet. I hit

26:32

something and turned around

26:34

and he just said, gosh, that wasn't even as as

26:36

dirty as I could be, will But

26:39

uh, he said, you hit my bullet. You hit

26:41

my bullet and and and uh

26:44

so that was what I remember

26:46

is my first day on campus is uh the

26:49

whole team ready to fight me out of the gate. Um.

26:53

You I mean, you guys had a pretty good team,

26:55

right, yeah, Mike Lewis, you had Kirk Hasting.

26:59

Um, we were loaded. We had a ton of talent.

27:01

We just didn't defend it very well. We had first

27:03

rounders. Luke Rocker would have been a first rounder.

27:05

He ended up transfer and as you remembered it Arizona

27:08

and then to Itowa. Lewis who

27:11

was the all time assistant leader, AJ

27:13

Guyton, who was a McDonald or who who was

27:15

an All American. M Kirk

27:17

Haston was a red shirt freshman my

27:20

freshman year. We were

27:22

a bit young. I mean Lewis, Is Lewis,

27:24

and Guyton were older. But we

27:29

we didn't have a group that we

27:31

didn't have a great team. We had a lot of good parts.

27:33

We just didn't have a great team. And

27:36

I think because unfortunately,

27:40

there are a lot of there

27:42

are a lot of agendas, not necessarily from

27:44

the players, but from people who were attached

27:47

to the players that prevented us from

27:49

really being a great team.

27:51

You you guys

27:54

lost in two thousand of pepper Dye. And

27:57

I know that not just because read

28:00

history, but I was there. It was in Buffalo.

28:02

We thought we were gonna play you, and I,

28:07

you know, like again, I only played against

28:09

Indiana once. Here's my here, I'll give him. I'll give

28:11

you the all my Indiana stories. I got one.

28:16

Charlie Miller stayed at my house for

28:18

a summer, maybe two summers. He

28:21

obviously proceeded you at I use for

28:23

people don't remember. He's a wing, left handed wing

28:25

from Miami. He played for Frank Martin in high school

28:28

and so he played with US in AU before he signed in

28:30

Indiana. And so

28:33

I went to the what was at the university. It

28:35

was the under eighteen and

28:38

under twenty one like University Games teams

28:40

or whatever World Games team tryouts in

28:42

Colorado Springs, and I met Brian Evans

28:45

and he told them the greatest, most

28:47

unbelievable Bob Nights

28:49

stories. I mean, just had us howling, cackling

28:51

whatever. Anyway,

28:54

then my freshman year, we get ready to play

28:56

Indiana at Notre Dame. And the year before

29:00

Dame had beaten Indiana in South

29:02

Bend. And I think, don't hold

29:04

me to this one, because I haven't looked at the bisets. I think they hit

29:06

something like fifteen threes, which at the time, like

29:08

even now, as a ridiculous number, but the

29:10

time was unheard of, and as you know,

29:13

coach Knight was very It wasn't until Texas Tech

29:15

and late in his career where he embraced the three point

29:17

shot. And so he basically

29:19

thought it was bullshit basketball. And he told everybody,

29:22

you know, basically, Notre Dame beat us on bullshit basketball,

29:24

so we knew they were. He was gonna

29:26

be pissed because he didn't forget a game. And

29:30

I you had played Yukon and

29:32

the championship of the Great Alaska

29:34

Shootout, and Yukon kicked

29:37

the dog piss out of him, beat him by like forty

29:39

right. So we go down and they hadn't played

29:42

like a week they got back from Alaska, and I'm sure they

29:44

practiced like five times a day, right, he probably

29:46

kicked them out of the locker rooms some shit like that.

29:49

And we go down

29:51

and the night before they had just

29:53

put a new court down in

29:57

the arena, okay, and and

30:00

what is an alumni hall whatever, So they they just put

30:02

a new assembly hall I'm sorry.

30:04

There's two assembly halls, right, there's Illinois

30:07

and IU. So Assembly

30:09

Hall, and so we go in and like, if

30:11

you've been and I know it's been redone. This beautiful

30:13

now. It wasn't beautiful then, but

30:15

it was just it was gigantic. It

30:17

was the biggest arena I had ever been in at

30:19

that point in time my life. It's like our first road game

30:22

ever. And the court was springing

30:24

as hell and everybody is throwing

30:26

down bam bam bam. We're

30:28

like, man, we're gonna be good. And I was like, yeah, I don't

30:30

know we're gonna be that good. So the

30:34

things I'll never forget about Coach Night is

30:38

you're warming up and everybody

30:40

in You're looking down the other end and

30:42

there's the candy stripe pants and

30:44

there's IU damn, and the

30:47

band is playing. You're like, damn, I'm playing

30:49

Indiana on National TV.

30:51

Holy shit. And then out walks Bob

30:53

Night. And I had met him a couple of times

30:55

before, but you forget he's

30:57

a big ass dude. Right. He was like six

31:00

three to six four, and he had

31:02

that the red sweaters, and then you know all

31:04

the fans have the they want to be want to be Bob

31:06

Knights had the red sweaters and then he would always

31:08

have a He never he never came out by himself.

31:10

He already had a couple of dudes with him, right,

31:12

he rolled deep for a for a coach.

31:18

Yeah, so he comes out and and like

31:20

literally everybody stops,

31:22

like we're in layoup lines and dude stop

31:24

and look like there's coach Night, you

31:27

know, silver hair. He comes by and he shakes

31:29

John McCloud's hands and go sit down whatever,

31:32

and you're like, you know, like it was at

31:34

Basketball Royalty at that time. So

31:37

we're down, go ahead,

31:39

go ahead, We're down forty

31:41

to fourteenth a half and

31:44

I'll never forget, Like you're go running off the court and

31:46

you go right by the band and they're playing the fight

31:48

song, right, and then the last part of the fight

31:51

talking is oh you, and like the whole

31:53

place is shaking and the student

31:55

section is going, don't come out, don't

31:58

come out, don't come out. And

32:00

I remember going to the locker room going like, you

32:02

know, guys, they say, we don't have to come out in

32:05

the second half, like we're cool, we're

32:07

good. So here, here's here's the here's

32:09

here's here's the story I tell you all the time. So, um,

32:11

what was the big dude's name from Texas?

32:14

Shit, who's a knior at the Uh?

32:17

Yes? First name? Uh huh

32:20

Andre Patterson? Right?

32:22

So um,

32:24

we get our ass beat and I

32:27

play. Okay, we go down

32:30

back to South Bend. I roll into

32:32

my dorm at Dylan Hall and I flip

32:34

on ESPN and it's

32:36

right about to hit like the Sports Center. Gun,

32:40

Are you ready for Sports Center? So

32:44

in in somewhere in the second half, I had driven

32:47

in and tried to shoot a floater over Andre Patterson.

32:50

Part of it was it was probably a little

32:52

bit of weak floater. Part of it was it

32:54

was at Indiana, so it was goaltending I feel

32:57

wasn't called. And part of it is if

32:59

you been to Assembly Hall, you know they have like three rows

33:01

of stands that are low, and

33:04

then there's the wall, and then there's the

33:06

second and then there's the second level,

33:08

and then the third level is so far out there, I don't even

33:10

know how you see the floor right right, He

33:12

didn't block my shot. He caught my shot,

33:15

and I felt like through it in the direction

33:18

of John Cougar Mellencamp who

33:20

was sitting there. Gosh, and

33:22

and and it was add insult to injury

33:24

when he caught the ball and threw it out of bounds. He

33:27

goes, no, right,

33:30

so I get back right. Remember, like

33:32

grew up dreaming of play like love

33:34

Bob Knight, dreaming of playing maybe at four

33:37

against Bob Knight. My dad has notes, copious

33:39

notes from west point of going to his

33:42

you know, telling stories about he used to his jump

33:44

shot was called the blue dart when he played

33:46

at Ohio State. Like I know everything about Bob Knight.

33:49

And we get an as we gets an

33:51

ass with him by like forty at iu and

33:55

are you ready for sports inner? D D

33:58

D no, And there's

34:00

my shot. There's my float. Do you see forty four?

34:02

Notre Dame Gottlieb and Andre Patterson's

34:05

face laughing as he throws a shot

34:07

in the direction that that's my us story. Anyway, go ahead.

34:09

You were the lead. I was a leading

34:12

lead. They did not bury the lead. Anyway.

34:14

You were saying about coach Knight, the thing the thing that stuck

34:17

out about you, Well, you mentioned how big he is.

34:19

And when I was well,

34:24

I committed to Indiana, Okay, and then he came

34:26

up to visit me sometime late

34:28

fall, and we were still in football

34:31

season, just may have just had

34:33

finished, but we're making the transition to basketball

34:35

season. But I was a football player too, and it's

34:37

probably my first love. But I had

34:39

interest in playing QB at Indiana. Cam

34:41

Cameron was the coach at the time, and

34:44

I said, coach, you know I'm coming.

34:47

I just back then, if you signed in

34:49

the November early period, you couldn't

34:53

play football that fall, but if you signed

34:56

in the late period, then you could. Weird rule. But I said,

34:58

I'd like to sign in the spring so

35:00

I have an option to play in football. And

35:03

there was just dead silence. He looked

35:05

at the ground, he looked up, he

35:08

pulled up. He always wore elastic

35:11

band pants. I remember noticing that. But

35:13

he pulled up

35:15

a chair and he lifted his pant

35:17

leg up to his knee

35:20

and he said, you

35:24

see these pants. You see this lake? Yeah?

35:27

Yeah, coach, you see this calf. Now

35:30

that's a damn football calf. I'm

35:33

a football player. This is a football Leake.

35:35

I look at your scrawny legs, I

35:38

said, yep, I said, I'll

35:42

tell you what. You come to

35:44

Indiana you're coming to play basketball and

35:46

that's it. And

35:48

I looked at my dad, who

35:51

was in the athletic director by coach

35:53

at the time. He didn't

35:56

have much to say, kind of kind of left

35:58

me out to dry. I said, Okay, sounds

36:00

good, coach. It's

36:02

so needless to say. I signed

36:05

in the early November signing period. But

36:08

I remember that leg that he was definitely that the

36:11

leg of a tight end, maybe

36:14

a defensive tackle, but he was a big fellow.

36:18

Um So get beat by Pepperdine.

36:20

That was his last game as head coach.

36:23

What was it like to be a What was it like

36:26

to be a player during what was just

36:28

a crazy turbulent time at

36:30

IU. Because again, like the lens

36:33

we look at Coach Night now is so different

36:35

than the various lenses of his time

36:38

at Indiana, like eighties, early

36:40

nineties, like he would have run

36:43

for governor unopposed even

36:45

an exactly,

36:48

but in Indiana, I mean, you would like Night

36:51

outside of Purdue fans, like ninety

36:53

nine percent of people are going to vote

36:55

for for for coach Night. Obviously

36:58

it wasn't he wasn't viewed the same,

37:00

but like you guys still had

37:02

good players and you still had good teams,

37:04

and then all of a sudden, the Neil Read video

37:07

appears and the interviews

37:09

and all that stuff that that went bad. What was that? What

37:11

do you remember about that time? Well?

37:16

I always tell people now, you know, mostly

37:19

that when you catch Coach Night in

37:22

his worst moments, they're usually

37:25

in a game, and

37:27

that's that's the big stage. But behind

37:29

the scenes, and I'd say, for the most

37:31

part, being eight, very

37:34

complimentary and practice pretty

37:38

easy to work with it. In practice, his

37:41

frustration was all about effort when

37:43

when there was a problem, it was usually about effort.

37:46

Wasn't about a turnover, a missshot.

37:52

It wasn't about anything that that

37:56

you could control, yeah, you couldn't control.

37:59

And so mostly complimentary,

38:02

but they put the zero tolerance

38:04

on him. Okay, in the spring they

38:06

as in the administration. I don't have

38:08

any problem with that. You know, if you got a problem with

38:11

somebody, you got to you gotta deal with it the

38:13

way you see fit. And now was it fair enough fair

38:15

I don't know, but they did.

38:17

So we roll into early September

38:20

and I remember on the I

38:23

woke up Sunday,

38:25

I woke up Sunday morning, and

38:27

my roommate had called and he said, hey, they're going to fire

38:30

coach Night. So

38:33

this was after he grabbed a student's

38:35

arm and addressed told them to call mister

38:38

Knight or coach Night. But so

38:42

we drove up in Indianapolis for the trustee

38:45

meeting. President Brand

38:48

announced that he was fire

38:50

in him. And it was funny

38:53

because we drove back to Bloomington and

38:58

Edwarder came over to our house for me espn

39:00

Um met

39:03

with us. Andy Katt remember Andy Kats. I still

39:05

to this day talked to Andy Katz about that day.

39:08

Andy Katz was there. Um,

39:11

there were just that there were so many things,

39:13

and then the students march on the President's

39:15

house at the time, and

39:19

uh, I walked over that to

39:21

that just to see what was going on, and

39:24

uh it was. It was chaos.

39:27

I mean, you'd think there was a coup

39:29

going on. And to

39:32

see the passion

39:34

and the anger

39:37

and the frustration that

39:40

that people had for for this

39:42

this figure was

39:46

incredible. And I know myself

39:48

and my teammates. I remember being in the locker room

39:50

Jared Jefferies Sunday

39:54

night when Coach Knight came back. Thanked

39:57

Coach Night, and I

39:59

remember coaching going into a

40:02

little area outside the locker room, and I overheard

40:04

him tell a friend of his that

40:07

he couldn't face us, as in, I can't

40:09

do this, I don't I don't want to have to face these

40:11

guys. I don't want to leave them. And

40:14

you saw, you're able to

40:16

see Coach Night vulnerable, able

40:19

to see how much we mattered, how much

40:21

the school mattered, and

40:23

right or wrong, it was his time

40:27

he left. But

40:30

it was pretty um it

40:32

was pretty emotional because

40:34

a lot of us had had dreamed of

40:36

growing up and playing for that man, whether

40:39

it's Indiana or not, that was my dream.

40:41

And I was upset, I was frustrated,

40:43

but we

40:46

uh it

40:48

was a pretty uh surreal

40:50

time for a bunch of eighteen to twenty two

40:53

year old kids that didn't know which end was up

40:55

anyway. Okay, so what what

40:57

happened? Was there a did you guys get together?

40:59

Because um, I

41:02

just think that the leadership of that moment is fascinating,

41:05

And like Robs,

41:07

it was it was today you guys would all be in the transfer portal,

41:10

but that it wasn't that way then and

41:13

somebody had to have dudes over. Like I

41:16

heard a story Brian Evans. I never remember that.

41:18

I never forget the story that, uh,

41:21

you know, one year he kicked him out.

41:23

He would always kick you guys out of locker room and put all your

41:25

ship in the hallway right and you

41:27

wouldn't have they wouldn't have practice, but you're supposed to run

41:29

practice on your own. Then his kar and his wife

41:31

would come down and talk to Coach Knight loves you

41:33

guys, like it was like a It

41:35

was just one of the things that he would do. But

41:38

that sometimes in order to get away, you

41:40

know, they go they go to a manager's house

41:43

and all the players would hang out together

41:45

and they there was some tape and you tell

41:47

me if there's real, there's some tape of coach

41:50

Knight getting run over in practice where

41:52

you know, you're transitioning from offense to defense,

41:54

and he forgot and he got caught up in

41:56

the like the whitewash, and and he's like,

41:58

man, I'm telling you, we'd have bad day. We'd go to

42:00

a manager's house and we watched that tape over and

42:02

over and over again, him getting run over and laugh

42:05

our ass off. So so what

42:07

do you remember about like how did you because you guys

42:09

stayed together, you end up going to a final four. I

42:11

know everybody didn't stay. How did it?

42:13

How did it play out? Well?

42:16

I was transferring back to Michigan State, and

42:19

I went over to coach Night maybe Monday,

42:21

so we got fired on September tenth,

42:24

so probably September eleventh or twelfth. I remember

42:27

being in his kitchen and just saying, coach, look,

42:30

if you

42:32

know, if, if, if they're not keeping the rest of

42:34

the staff, then the number to go, because

42:36

I don't want to play for a new staff.

42:38

When we'd heard rumors of different coaches coming

42:41

in, and you

42:44

know, I wasn't sure what was going to happen with the rest

42:47

of the team in terms of who's coming and gone.

42:49

We'd all a lot of us said we were going to transfer.

42:52

I think some of them were bluff and I at

42:54

the time wasn't because I wanted. I

42:56

was okay. I was at peace with Coach Night

42:58

being removed, but I didn't

43:00

want to lose the rest of the staff, that

43:02

being Mike Davis and John Treelore. Pat

43:05

Pat Knight was the other assistant. I assumed

43:07

he was leaving, so

43:10

Coach Knight seemed to think that they

43:13

weren't going to retain Mike davis

43:15

or who's at University Detroit now, or John

43:17

Treeloor, who's a scout with Phoenix

43:22

coach, and I didn't think they were going to retain them either,

43:24

so they said, well, help me transfer. And

43:27

it's funny because there's so many coaches that

43:29

come up that have come up over the years that

43:31

coach Knight actually reached out to and

43:35

but I said, can you help me transfer? And he said,

43:37

you sure, this is what you want to do? I

43:40

said, yeah, I don't. I don't want to be a part of a

43:42

new staff and I'm not sure who's

43:44

who's going to stay, and it doesn't really matter,

43:47

you know, I don't want to be here party. I

43:49

don't want to change things. So

43:53

you know, I went back. I left right

43:55

away and announced I was transferred.

43:58

Meanwhile, Jared Jefferies comes up to me and says,

44:00

well, hey, you know, I'm

44:03

hearing that they might keep Mike Davis,

44:05

John Coach Davis and coach Trielor

44:08

and let them do an interim

44:10

just like oh Man. So

44:13

a long story short, I decided I was going to stay,

44:16

and Kirk Haston stayed

44:19

and Jared Jefferies was a freshman that

44:21

year. Tom Coverdale.

44:23

We had. We had a really good court group that you

44:26

know, over the course of two years, became

44:28

a damn good team even though Haston left.

44:30

It was funny because Haston

44:33

was really instrumental in me staying and

44:37

not that I mattered. I averaged five points a game,

44:39

but you

44:42

know, I was just, I guess, a vet

44:44

and they needed some vets. But Haston went pro

44:47

after that year, and Haston

44:49

was the one that talked me into staying and

44:52

said we're gonna win a national championship in the

44:54

next two years. Since when Haston

44:56

left, I didn't speak to him for a whole summer, but

44:59

I guess looking back, you've got a chance to be drafted.

45:02

I think he was fifteen or sixteen to the Charlotte

45:04

Hornets. Probably should have

45:06

left, but um, yeah,

45:09

we had a good court group. Jared Jefferies,

45:11

Coverdale, Kyle Hornsby m

45:13

Jared Odle. We were, we

45:15

were. I

45:18

don't have any stories like like Brian Evans

45:20

does about rallying over the our

45:23

coach getting run over, but um

45:26

I do think that, uh, you

45:28

know, we rallied on Coach

45:30

Night's behalf and

45:32

because he was still important to us and still

45:35

is. And you combine

45:37

that with Coach Davis and John

45:39

Treelor putting us

45:41

in positions to succeed. It was it

45:44

was a great recipe. But the other thing it was

45:46

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45:49

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48:38

you could the three things

48:41

you mean, give me three things that

48:44

Coach Night taught that you

48:47

believe into this day. You

48:51

know what, I think that even as

48:53

I work for coaches, Oh, the one thing you

48:56

can't allow as a coach is is

49:01

a bad practice and a bad practice

49:05

from a team, but it usually

49:07

starts from somewhere. Does it start from your

49:09

leadership amongst your players,

49:12

does it start from a player

49:15

or does it start where? Where does it stem from?

49:18

And Coach

49:20

Knight would never let

49:23

up. It was a relentless pursuit of

49:26

excellence and if

49:30

there was a bad practice from a player,

49:34

he dealt with it. He dealt with it in a way

49:36

that would typically make sure that it wouldn't

49:38

happen again. And so

49:42

there was no let up. And I

49:45

remember being in practice and

49:48

it was like a trance because you had

49:51

to be focused, you

49:53

had to be intense, you had to know what you were doing.

49:56

And when practice ended, it was it

50:00

wasn't release, but it was what did I just do

50:02

for the last two hours? Because of that? You

50:06

know, for for a twenty one

50:08

or eighteen to twenty two year old to maintain

50:10

focus for that two hours, for that

50:13

long period of time is I

50:15

don't think it could happen today, and

50:17

it barely could happen back when I played

50:19

in the early to late nineties, early two thousands.

50:22

Yeah, it's interesting because we used to our

50:25

practices were long and I never forget so

50:27

the old Gallagher. I but used to have a clock in

50:30

up, you know, behind the stands in one

50:32

of the end zones. And remember this is a sixty three

50:34

hundred seed gym, it's not really an arena. They

50:37

used to be a clock and guys

50:40

would you know, they're huffing and puff and they'd look up. And

50:42

we didn't. We didn't condition, you

50:44

know, coaches thing. You know occasionally during Christmas

50:46

break we do some we do some running, and we

50:48

do running as punishment, but we never did conditioning.

50:51

Right when I was at net Notre Dame, we

50:54

can. I thought John McLeod an interesting

50:56

way of doing conditioning. He had four quarters of practice

50:59

and aft at the end of every

51:01

quarter of practice you would do a conditioning

51:04

drill or two and then get water. That's how he did

51:06

it, or his coach Sutton like, we never

51:08

did any conditioning. And his whole thing was like, you can

51:10

make it through my practice, you can make it through a game. And

51:13

I'd never get like he'd be on your

51:15

shorts and guys that start looking up and

51:18

we would. Part of the problem was we had a bunch of and

51:20

I think you guys are the same thing. We'd have a bunch of smart asses

51:24

and you know, you get to like two and a half three

51:26

hours and be like twenty hour, roll twenty

51:28

hour roll right and

51:31

and and coach would it would

51:33

it would without any quay would happen a couple

51:36

of times the year where he got

51:38

he'd tell late Pat Noise, one of the

51:40

guys's snake who died in plane crash.

51:42

He got snake. You go up there, you

51:45

cover up that clock. You got

51:47

a bunch of clock watchers here, you got a bunch of

51:49

clock But we came here to work. We came.

51:51

It is the hardest thing you're gonna do when live. You

51:54

cover up that damn clock, and sure enough there'd

51:56

be like a white sheet over the clock, and guys are trying

51:58

to like look through the white sheet, like, man, I

52:00

think we've been here three hours. Man, fuck this, we

52:02

gotta get out of here, right. But it's

52:05

it's really amazing because now if

52:07

and I don't know what you and and

52:09

we used to make fun of Kansas

52:11

because Kansas, you know, they would dial

52:13

back their practices. A bunch that was Roy Williams

52:16

thing was like fresh legs, man, we go they go

52:18

like forty five minutes an hour when they get

52:20

to February and coach,

52:22

you wouldn't having any of that shit. And

52:25

but now I do think you need you're

52:27

better off going twice a day

52:30

for an hour and fifteen hour and a half just because

52:32

guy's attention spans aren't

52:34

dead long, let alone coach's attention spans aren't

52:36

dead long. Well, that's right, and

52:39

i'd say this too. There's a lot more for head

52:41

coaches to have to do now than

52:44

there was. And you

52:48

know, whether it's recruiting alumni, media,

52:51

m oh

52:53

and don't forget about your own family. Um,

52:57

you just wonder how how a guy

53:00

like coaches or coach k processes

53:03

things throughout it out the day. I mean,

53:07

but i'd say the other the

53:09

other thing that

53:10

um that I won't forget

53:13

is we

53:15

would always wonder what kind of mood um

53:18

Coach Night was in each day. It

53:21

always varied and it

53:23

could be there

53:25

were so many different

53:28

spots on the spectrum that he

53:30

could be. But being

53:33

in this business now, I

53:36

think it was just his way of not

53:38

allowing us to be comfortable and finding

53:40

things to to keep

53:42

us on our toes, which isn't

53:44

out of the ordinary in U sports

53:48

or the working world. I don't think I think good

53:50

bosses find ways to keep people motivated

53:53

without driving them away, and

53:56

those that understand that get

53:58

better those that don't look for excuses.

54:03

But there were so many different

54:07

personalities. When you talk about split split

54:09

personality, it just multiple

54:12

splits. But I think looking

54:14

back, it's probably you know, the old

54:16

method to his madness. And

54:19

then the third thing was a lot of

54:21

people. I mean

54:23

when you think of Coach Night, you think of motion offense

54:25

right right, right, I

54:28

think people do. But there was different different types of motion,

54:30

right. You guys would have you know, you'd

54:32

have the baseline runner, you'd have the triangle,

54:35

right. There was a couple of different times, but go ahead, yeah,

54:39

I think you know, we didn't have a lot of

54:41

bounce plays either, just

54:43

guys figured it out. But

54:46

the attention to detail on the defensive

54:49

end, I think where Coach Night was was his

54:51

best. And I

54:54

think the motion was just

54:57

a toy. I mean, motion allowed

54:59

him to coach the defense more. And

55:03

you know, I argue with coaches oh all the time. You

55:05

know, whenever he talks about how they used

55:07

to whip us, they said, now keep in mind, coach

55:09

I was for and for against Michigan State

55:11

while I was Indiana at Indiana,

55:14

and he'll even make the comment, well, you know, you

55:16

guys, you guys were motion

55:18

and you were hard to prepare for. But you guys, did

55:20

you guys prepare that much on defense? And I

55:22

said, Coach, there's a reason

55:24

why we beat you the mighty Michigan State. I

55:27

mean, and that's because it's

55:30

it's pretty similar to what we do here.

55:32

But I'd say that he doesn't

55:35

get enough credit. Coach Night doesn't get enough

55:37

credit for his defensive preparation

55:41

in the way his team's defended. Now

55:43

in his later years, they struggle. There's a lot

55:45

of turnover in players, and I

55:48

don't think he was getting the players that he really

55:51

he needed to. But the

55:53

defense is something that's underrated as

55:56

I look back on Coach's career. Okay,

55:59

so we did I

56:01

guess force baseline, We

56:03

did post a post double. We

56:06

worked on we that we call it, you know,

56:08

ceiling where we would

56:10

always we would seal off the lane you drove

56:12

baseline, you come over and help and take a charge

56:15

and trap that and then whoever was guarding

56:17

the ball, you were the You were the rotate

56:19

man, rotate man, or you were the flyer right,

56:22

and we'd work on you know, you

56:24

know, scramble, drill and out

56:26

of a double, out of a double team in the low post when

56:28

the ball is reversed, scramble as well.

56:31

But I'll never forget again. One of my first practices

56:33

of Oklahoma State, Um, I

56:36

said a coach, um, which

56:39

which way we forced him?

56:41

And he's like, what do you mean?

56:43

I was like, well, we forced some baseline, we forced the middle.

56:45

It was like neither like

56:48

noeral coach like, where's the

56:50

help? He's like, college man should

56:53

guard his man. I was like, all right,

56:55

coach, that's great, But if he happens

56:57

to go by me, which way

56:59

would you prefer he goes by me, to

57:01

the baseline or to the middle, like,

57:04

neither of you. He goes by you. The only

57:06

plays You're going to sit next to me and

57:08

help me coach? Right? It was it was

57:10

a little simpler then, right, like we did have

57:12

inbounds playsment and and I've talked about

57:15

this. Miles Simon enjoying enjoined me last week in the

57:17

pod and he was like, dude, we had three plays like

57:20

lut never brought up a whiteboard. Coach said,

57:22

never drew on a white board or whatever. I understand, but,

57:25

um, you guys did help to

57:27

the middle, right, was it was the help from the middle

57:29

or the help from the because like the players kind of and the assistant

57:31

coach is like, well, what coach really wants is like you

57:34

don't want you, but all right, we're gonna help from the baseline.

57:36

It was almost like whispering. You know what,

57:39

what was the general defensive philosophy

57:41

that was so good? It was baseline. It was baseline.

57:43

And it was funny because it just had changed

57:45

right around that era. To me, a

57:49

lot of it was metal and then it just had

57:51

changed to baseline. Probably

57:54

somewhere in the mid nineties or

57:56

I'm sorry, late eighties, early nineties. Before

58:00

that, I don't think there was defense. And I listened to my

58:02

dad talked about when he played in the seventies. Um,

58:06

he said, we didn't we didn't have defensive principles.

58:09

Guard your man and do a good job. Yeah,

58:12

that was that he's setting right there. Yeah yeah,

58:14

and uh, I want

58:16

you to turn his ass to the

58:19

glass. Excuse me. When we're in Arkansas.

58:22

Hey, we had the triplets now Marvin

58:24

delf and Alvin Robertson and

58:26

and we would we they would

58:28

get into you when you cross mid court, and we

58:31

wanted to make that point guard turn his ass

58:33

to the glass. Brother, you can guard like that,

58:35

you can play for me anyway. Yeah, there was no. There

58:38

wasn't anything like, hey, how are we playing this ball screen

58:40

like we're gonna you know, we're gonna we're gonna

58:42

ice it? Are we gonna trave it? Like? No,

58:45

he guard your man? Yeah,

58:47

that's right. Okay, score, Yes,

58:50

that's generally good. That's good coaching

58:52

right there. You know what, I always give my dad crap

58:55

about going against Rick Mount,

58:57

who he denies he had to guard him. But Rick got

59:00

fifty two against him against Michigan

59:02

and beat him. And that's without

59:05

that's without three point the three point shot.

59:07

How does that happen? How does

59:09

that happen? How does a guy score fifty two

59:11

points without the three

59:13

point shot in the count? You ever seen Rick Mount shooting

59:15

basketball? Yeah? Yeah, But

59:18

but do you think Rick Mount

59:20

would do it do it in today's game? Yeah?

59:24

See, I don't. And that's not to say that

59:26

Rick Mount wasn't incredible,

59:30

but I mean the defense today

59:32

is a lot different. I'd

59:35

agree. Listen. I remember going to

59:37

Final fours and Rick Mount would do shooting clinics

59:39

and I was like, Dad, does

59:41

he ever miss? And He's like, nope,

59:45

I mean it was. I was unbelievable.

59:49

And then you add in the three point line. Oh okay,

59:51

so, uh what do you remember about

59:53

the final four playing in it? Well?

59:57

I remember the flag. Okay, this was year

1:00:00

at nine to eleven and it's two thousand

1:00:02

and two, and I remember the flag. Okay,

1:00:04

it was it was a lot bigger. That's

1:00:06

the flag that's flying on the World Trade Center

1:00:09

near the World Trade Center, and it had

1:00:11

the burn marks and you

1:00:14

could smell it, and they had the firefighters

1:00:16

and policemen that were at ground zero,

1:00:20

and um,

1:00:23

it was it was as

1:00:26

powerful as as being

1:00:28

in the presence of of

1:00:33

of Coach Night or it was just it

1:00:35

was. It was an incredible rush.

1:00:38

And uh otherwise

1:00:44

and we were there. We

1:00:46

were there to win the game. The games

1:00:49

and and

1:00:52

again it's for

1:00:54

for for guys that we

1:00:56

had a lot of juniors and seniors. Um,

1:01:02

the intensity, the focus there there,

1:01:04

there wouldn't aside from

1:01:06

my kids being born, there's not a better moment.

1:01:09

There's not a bigger rush, There's not a bigger

1:01:15

a better time. You know that

1:01:17

the eighteen to twenties. You

1:01:20

always hear people tell stories, the older

1:01:22

people about the good old days. Yeah,

1:01:25

you know, my grandpa ninety two

1:01:27

passed away, but his

1:01:30

eighteen nineteen twenties World

1:01:33

War Two, Normandy other Grandpa

1:01:36

Philippines. You know, just the time when when

1:01:38

you were young, you were you were

1:01:40

out from under the umbrella of your parents

1:01:42

and it was

1:01:44

just an incredible time. In the Final four,

1:01:47

it was in Atlanta that that year, and

1:01:52

you know, there are a lot of great stories that came

1:01:55

from it. But ultimately,

1:01:58

Doug, I think we remember

1:02:01

the smiles that put on people's faces.

1:02:04

I don't remember much from the games, um,

1:02:08

but the smiles that we put on people's

1:02:11

faces, especially Indiana

1:02:13

that that was reeling from the coach night

1:02:15

firing. Um. We

1:02:18

gave the people from

1:02:21

a sports perspective,

1:02:23

from a basketball perspective, something

1:02:26

to smile about. We probably weren't supposed

1:02:28

to be there. I think we were a four seed that year. We

1:02:32

beat Duke who had eight first rounders.

1:02:35

US

1:02:39

well, I think it was insane. Yeah,

1:02:42

I don't know they had eight first rounders.

1:02:44

We had one CBA draft

1:02:46

pick that was me. So

1:02:49

I guess you could say we had one first rounder, right,

1:02:52

yeah, CBA,

1:02:55

Yeah, we USBL number I was the first.

1:02:57

I was the first overall pick of the USBL. What

1:03:00

game Oklahoma City,

1:03:02

Oklahoma, Oklahoma storm

1:03:05

en in Oklahoma, numb

1:03:08

one roll pick. A lot of fighting for that pick.

1:03:10

They traded up. There's at least

1:03:12

one ball back that was exchanged. Huh.

1:03:16

You and Chris Weber same thing in common?

1:03:19

Yeah, well first round picks,

1:03:21

um,

1:03:23

But you know you just you see those

1:03:26

smiles and just

1:03:29

an incredible time. Okay,

1:03:31

so how about this one? Um?

1:03:33

You you did fix your

1:03:35

shot or your the like. Look, you had

1:03:38

a little bit of the same thing I had, only you

1:03:40

fixed it. By the end of year college career,

1:03:42

I couldn't write like you were a big score mister

1:03:45

basketball, State of Michigan. Everybody

1:03:47

wanted you. And then you

1:03:49

couldn't make a shot in college until your

1:03:51

senior year when um,

1:03:53

again, like now you would probably shoot twice

1:03:55

as many threes, but you became nearly a fifty percent

1:03:57

three point shooter, and you actually

1:04:00

became a threat. How did you? How did you fix it? You

1:04:04

know what, there's

1:04:07

a ton of variables that go into that, but

1:04:09

I think I first had to understand a

1:04:12

couple of things. One of the physiology of it.

1:04:14

What's happening to I mean,

1:04:16

I Mike Davis, one

1:04:18

of my favorite people on Earth, took

1:04:21

over for Coach Night when he was fired. Coach

1:04:25

and act Detroit used

1:04:28

to call me quarter till and quarter

1:04:30

till just meant when the lights turned on. I

1:04:32

was great until the lights turned on and it was

1:04:34

game time. Not out of

1:04:36

the ordinary for a young player. And AJ

1:04:39

Guyton used to call me the practice All American

1:04:41

says, I was the best best pat practice player

1:04:43

in the country. And then the lights

1:04:45

turned on, and you know what, it's ultimately

1:04:48

it Ultimately it's it's choking.

1:04:50

You're choking. I like to look

1:04:52

at it as overcaring and put too

1:04:55

much pressure on myself, but to

1:04:57

understand the physiology component, what

1:05:00

is happening to your body? I

1:05:03

would find myself so worked up before

1:05:05

the game, so nervous about not

1:05:12

doing what I was capable of doing, so

1:05:14

frustrated, so anxious

1:05:17

that I would be exhausted before the game, and

1:05:22

you know, it would just manifest itself

1:05:24

into everything. It'd be dribbling,

1:05:27

it'd be anything that involved the small muscles

1:05:30

that the little muscles in your fingers,

1:05:32

your arms, anything that would would

1:05:34

affect the small muscles, the finesse

1:05:37

muscles, similar to what

1:05:40

a what would affect a pitcher or a quarterback,

1:05:43

you know, the big muscle things

1:05:45

like running and staying

1:05:47

in a defensive stance, and that

1:05:50

didn't involve the finesse part of it. I

1:05:52

was fine, but it was small

1:05:55

things, And so now

1:05:57

what did I do to change it? My senior year, I'd always

1:06:00

worked on my shot. I'd always worked on my game

1:06:03

a lot, a lot of shots,

1:06:05

a lot of time outside of practice.

1:06:11

You know, I think it. I'd like to say I just stopped

1:06:14

caring, but I didn't stop caring. I

1:06:19

just think that you

1:06:22

never know when it's going to click, and

1:06:25

you've got to put in the work. But it just

1:06:29

finally clicked. And

1:06:32

I think part of it was just

1:06:37

better perspective, just having

1:06:39

better perspective. That

1:06:41

the other part was I'd

1:06:44

seen every psychologist, talk to every

1:06:46

coach, talked to every

1:06:50

person you could think of to try to

1:06:52

try to gain that that perspective.

1:06:55

But I think ultimately

1:06:58

it was just the

1:07:01

pressure went away after I decided

1:07:03

that the game was

1:07:05

important, but

1:07:08

it wasn't my life, and it didn't define

1:07:10

me. And there were breathing techniques and there were different

1:07:12

things that you could do, but

1:07:16

it didn't define me. And how

1:07:19

often you've been a coach now for your

1:07:21

entire professional life, you know, you did one year

1:07:23

of hope and then how

1:07:25

often do you see this occurring where

1:07:28

you have guys with what I think the

1:07:30

layman would term a performance anxiety.

1:07:34

I would say that everybody has

1:07:36

some some some degree of

1:07:38

it. And

1:07:41

the best example

1:07:43

I can give you is something that I know you

1:07:45

struggled with, and that was that was free throws.

1:07:49

And so if

1:07:51

you take somebody in

1:07:53

the game at the free throw line

1:07:56

versus what

1:07:58

they shoot and practice, it

1:08:00

always is different. It's

1:08:03

always different. Ahead

1:08:07

My deal was so I'd

1:08:09

take quick, quick, kind of psycho it sorry,

1:08:11

interrupt um. So

1:08:14

it's mine started to manifest itself in

1:08:16

high school very late at the

1:08:19

free throw line and I

1:08:21

was a big score and I never forget. We were playing

1:08:23

at the Pond and Anaheim which is now the Honda

1:08:25

Center. I playing Domingus, who I

1:08:28

lost to my junior year and my senior they were loaded

1:08:30

Tayshaun Prince and Tommy Prince. Tayshaun was

1:08:32

just like a freshman Tommy Prince and Kenny

1:08:35

Bruner, like they had a squad. And

1:08:38

I remember getting to the free throw line in

1:08:40

the pond, and I had always been like, end

1:08:43

of the game, hold the ball, get fouled, make

1:08:45

free throws right, and like I just

1:08:47

all of a sudden felt off. I felt

1:08:49

like this is not where I'm supposed to be.

1:08:52

And then I went to Notre Dame and

1:08:55

I was one hundred and sixty pounds, and

1:08:59

I mean I was cocky as shit, like I was I'm

1:09:01

gonna be starting point guard, and we

1:09:04

started like lifting and we

1:09:06

were, you know, taking it back then Creatin was big

1:09:09

whatever, and I don't know what waterway or whatever. But

1:09:11

by the time we got to our first game, I was one seventy

1:09:13

seven and I was yoked right

1:09:15

man muscles, nineteen yoked,

1:09:19

but I was I felt like my body

1:09:21

was tight, and I felt like I felt

1:09:23

heavier. And suddenly I went from being able to dunk

1:09:26

to like, all right, now I'm like nicking

1:09:28

the rim and

1:09:30

and that hurt man. And then I was a little

1:09:32

bit you know, you're you know, your freshman year, like I was a

1:09:34

little lost offensively now

1:09:36

for me, the free throw

1:09:39

thing became kind of the It wasn't until

1:09:41

I got really to to Oklahoma

1:09:43

State where it manifests itself to any shooting

1:09:45

where I just had a fear of failure and so

1:09:47

I wouldn't shoot and I would um

1:09:51

but um. But I

1:09:53

also remember, I

1:09:56

remember like I could do I was

1:09:58

the opposite. I could do anything on a basketball

1:10:01

court. I just couldn't

1:10:03

get myself to actually shoot like

1:10:05

I can normally shoot, you know, And

1:10:10

then it become like a self fulfilling prophecy

1:10:12

where I wouldn't believe it was going to go in, so it wouldn't

1:10:14

go in, and so you'd take it and it would look bad shooting.

1:10:16

It would get worse and then you'd feel bad. And

1:10:18

it was it was really. I mean, I don't

1:10:20

know how you feel about your first three years in college.

1:10:22

Like I've never shown my son

1:10:25

a tape of me playing college because I'm so embarrassed

1:10:27

by how people guarded me. Because I'm like,

1:10:29

of course I can shoot, but you know what I mean, and

1:10:32

it's so hard, and I was I would so

1:10:34

I would as good as I was. And I

1:10:37

also had a coach. It didn't know how to coach me like I

1:10:39

love Eddie Sudden, but he didn't understand what

1:10:41

was going on with me mentally, where I just needed

1:10:43

somebody to go like, hey, dude, you miss it, don't

1:10:46

worry about it, you're not taking bad shots. Get

1:10:48

your ass back on defense. But instead he'd

1:10:50

take me out, and then I never

1:10:53

wanted to come out. I thought I felt like coming out

1:10:55

of a game was punishment, and so I

1:10:57

I would just like, shit, if I don't shoot, then he's not going to take

1:10:59

me out and I'm good, Whereas all the guys

1:11:01

on my team like, shit, shake the shock, you

1:11:03

miss, don't worry about it's gonna put you back in. And

1:11:05

I just couldn't get over that mental hurdle. Yeah,

1:11:08

well it is. It's a case of just you're

1:11:11

overcaring. And it's

1:11:13

funny because mine started in high school too,

1:11:15

and it started at the free throw one I

1:11:17

shot an airball, and then next thing, I know,

1:11:22

the crowd yell and airball and whatever. So then

1:11:24

I got to the point wherever you do down airball, So

1:11:26

then I'm just hoping and praying it hits the rim. As

1:11:28

the year went on, and it was my sophomore year,

1:11:31

and we lost a chance at a state

1:11:33

championship because of it. And

1:11:35

you know, if I could pinpoint exactly

1:11:38

why, and I could look back in like

1:11:40

six and seventh grade and say, gosh, I could make

1:11:42

Breeze rows better than I could in

1:11:45

college in seventh grade, and

1:11:48

and so you know, the pressure

1:11:50

gets to everybody. There's varying degrees.

1:11:52

I kind of look at it as three types,

1:11:55

you know, so the so the worst

1:11:57

one in baseball is an easy one to look to.

1:12:00

Um would be the Steve Sachs

1:12:02

or the Chuck Chuck noblock or the guy that's

1:12:04

going through it right now is the pitcher John Lester.

1:12:06

And what I'm for the Cubs, And I think

1:12:08

he's still with the now. I think he left. Who's with

1:12:12

I don't know. But he got to where he could actually kind

1:12:14

of kind of throw the first base but right,

1:12:17

but if the underhand it'd be something awkward.

1:12:19

And I was surprised, and I think you'll agree

1:12:22

with this that it didn't spill into his pitching.

1:12:24

Nope, and base

1:12:27

right. And so the

1:12:30

fascination of it, Um,

1:12:33

where where uh that

1:12:35

would be the worst though? Where Steve

1:12:37

Sacks or Chuck Noblocker? Remember Rich

1:12:39

Ankiel for the Cardinals. Watched it

1:12:42

unfold before my eyes when he was pitching

1:12:44

against the Braves. I think

1:12:46

it was the NLCS and he

1:12:48

just it just he just

1:12:52

went to hell right in front of us. And

1:12:54

uh. He ended up coming back as a hitter,

1:12:56

but never was an elite, elite

1:12:59

pitcher. And so

1:13:01

there's those. But I think most most

1:13:03

most players spend

1:13:07

their their pressure,

1:13:10

you know, spend there in the middle area

1:13:12

of if

1:13:14

they could just get over the hump as far as

1:13:16

dealing with the pressure, they would be elite, they

1:13:19

would be pros, you

1:13:21

know. And then there are the pros that

1:13:23

that really can handle the pressure. But you

1:13:26

know, shock for example. Okay,

1:13:29

in my opinion, Shack

1:13:32

didn't miss. Shaq couldn't hit a free throw

1:13:35

because of what you and I

1:13:37

had to deal with. Yeah he

1:13:39

had big hands, Yeah he had long arms. Yeah

1:13:41

he was seven seven

1:13:43

one three thirty.

1:13:46

But I think it was

1:13:48

completely in his head where most people say,

1:13:50

yeah, now he shot

1:13:53

thirty eight percent because his hands

1:13:55

are too big. You know, He's worked with every

1:13:57

coach, you

1:13:59

know, you just golfers, a golfers, you

1:14:02

know the things that involve those fanesse muscles

1:14:05

like pitching and shooting it's

1:14:08

Uh, it's delicate, and

1:14:10

the mental psyche is delicate, and that's

1:14:13

why there's so few great

1:14:15

pitchers. I'd like to

1:14:17

say, if, if, if

1:14:21

if every pitcher were

1:14:24

that that through ninety six mile an

1:14:26

hour could could put it where they want it, then

1:14:28

then we wouldn't have Greg Maddox Doug And

1:14:32

that's that's the truth. I mean, there

1:14:35

would be no room for for eighty eight

1:14:37

mile an hour fastballs, eighty six mile an

1:14:39

hour fastballs if if

1:14:41

you could put it where you want it. But the fact of the matter

1:14:44

is you

1:14:46

can because of the mental psyche. There's

1:14:48

just it's just hard to be elite. And

1:14:51

I just I think that's the fascination

1:14:53

is why did it happen

1:14:55

to you and I Why did it happen to

1:14:57

Steve Sachs, Why

1:15:00

did it happen to Shack Yeah,

1:15:02

Chuck Nablock and John Us Why do you think?

1:15:04

I like, why do you think do you think it's do you think it's

1:15:07

I'd like to think it's a sign of intelligence,

1:15:10

um right, that you think too much

1:15:12

that you think it about the rampifications of

1:15:14

it. Um you

1:15:17

know, I would I would say that would be my

1:15:19

My thing is I just overthought it. Joe

1:15:23

Crispin, whom you

1:15:25

played against, I know, Um,

1:15:27

Joe Crispin has a saying he would.

1:15:29

He's now a D three coach. His

1:15:32

brother Joe. Yeah, and Joe was a

1:15:34

great shooter, and I never forget. He

1:15:36

was like, hey man, you think you stink, Just

1:15:39

remember that you think you stink. And

1:15:42

I just couldn't. I just couldn't. I never

1:15:44

thought about us, never thought about a single

1:15:46

pass I ever had to make. I

1:15:48

never thought about anything else. I'd like, you

1:15:51

know, all these guys like my son was, hey,

1:15:53

dad, did you crossover? Go behind

1:15:55

your back? Is like no, I

1:15:58

just I would try and go buy somebody,

1:16:00

and if they would beat me to a spot, I would spin

1:16:02

or I'd cross over or go behind my back or

1:16:04

something something like that. I'd just react to it, like I didn't

1:16:06

go all this other one on cone bullshit. Um,

1:16:09

but I didn't have to. You know, where as you see little kids and

1:16:11

they're like thinking moves, like who thinks about

1:16:14

a move? But I would get up there and I

1:16:16

would start I would start thinking, and

1:16:19

you know, I think you know, as I've gone on now

1:16:21

as a dad and trying to teach as a coach, and

1:16:24

it's what I've what I've done. What I think

1:16:26

the proper way to teach things

1:16:29

is to teach process as

1:16:32

opposed to result, which is like, hey,

1:16:34

worry about your feet and

1:16:37

you're breathing in your hands, and

1:16:39

just don't even worry about the ball going in because

1:16:42

the more if your feet are right. You know, if

1:16:44

you just worry about these little things, your feet are right, your hands

1:16:46

right, it'll go in more more times than not.

1:16:48

I think that's the way. Okay, so let me

1:16:50

fast forward here because your time

1:16:53

is precious. You become a head coach

1:16:55

at twenty five years old at

1:16:57

Indiana produe Fort Wayne.

1:17:00

What was that like? You

1:17:03

know, once again being the son of a

1:17:05

coach um. You

1:17:09

know, the basketball component

1:17:12

was was easy teaching.

1:17:15

It came natural. I

1:17:18

think what you can't what

1:17:21

you can't get a head coach, much

1:17:23

less a twenty five year old to understand, is

1:17:27

that this is a

1:17:30

serious business and

1:17:34

they're you know, just like just

1:17:37

like the financial world or

1:17:43

you know, the movie business. This

1:17:45

is a serious business and there

1:17:49

are a lot of there's a lot of good

1:17:51

people and then there's

1:17:53

a lot of people that will will Um are

1:17:55

looking for the for the easy way

1:17:58

and growing

1:18:02

up the

1:18:04

way I did. I assume your same way, especially

1:18:06

in sports. Um,

1:18:10

small town you're you're you're not really

1:18:12

exposed to I wasn't

1:18:14

exposed to. UM.

1:18:19

You know that the the the

1:18:22

the bad parts of the of of

1:18:24

of humans. You know

1:18:26

that where UM

1:18:31

there's there's a the selfish

1:18:34

part of it, the selfish part of the world, the greedy

1:18:36

part of the world, and so UM.

1:18:39

At twenty five, I'm

1:18:42

just thinking, Look, if I'm just honest, if

1:18:44

I'm just kind,

1:18:46

if I'm just do

1:18:49

things right like Coach Knight did, I'll

1:18:52

be great. And it just

1:18:54

wasn't the way it worked. And and in

1:18:57

in in what in what way? I mean like listening like this

1:18:59

is a long way removed from it. Yeah,

1:19:01

but in what way? Well,

1:19:05

you mean an example, how

1:19:07

did it did? The way it changed me? I

1:19:10

went into it as a twenty five year old with

1:19:13

a very open minded, um

1:19:16

naive part of it

1:19:19

being so young, but just believing in

1:19:21

in people, UM,

1:19:24

with the utmost degree of respect

1:19:27

and honesty and integrity,

1:19:29

because that's all I've ever been around and

1:19:32

exposed to. And part

1:19:34

of it was my choice, you know, going to Indiana,

1:19:36

I was around a lot of great people. Part

1:19:39

of it was just being in a family and

1:19:41

in a town that that had great

1:19:43

leadership and great people, and

1:19:46

so um,

1:19:48

I entered a world of of um,

1:19:51

there's there's millions to be made, and

1:19:54

there's a lot, a lot of money in at stake,

1:19:56

and then you've got to deal with um

1:20:00

a lot of good parents, but many delusional

1:20:03

parents and coaches and mentors

1:20:06

and a lot

1:20:08

of different agendas. So essentially

1:20:10

I entered the real world, and the real world can

1:20:12

be unforgiving. And so as

1:20:16

a twenty five year old navigating

1:20:19

the the running

1:20:23

with the wolves was was a

1:20:25

big shock. So

1:20:28

an example would just simply be scheduling.

1:20:39

You know, I didn't understand that

1:20:43

you couldn't just play Michigan

1:20:50

State and lose,

1:20:53

because you and I were brought up as, hey,

1:20:56

let's play these teams to get better, right,

1:21:00

you know, So I was. I was excited

1:21:03

about those opportunities. I didn't care about

1:21:06

my record at that time. And

1:21:12

the more I was told and that

1:21:17

look, you gotta get wins, you gotta get this, you

1:21:19

gotta get I said, well, hey, look let's

1:21:21

get our players better. UM, I

1:21:25

would say that the recruiting world is even

1:21:28

at that level is

1:21:30

difficult in what way because

1:21:33

of everybody thinks they're pro. Yeah,

1:21:38

yeah, that's the that's the amazing part. Right, It's

1:21:40

like listen, do you know Indiana

1:21:42

produce way and by the way, like people

1:21:44

obviously google and terrible

1:21:47

like your last year, you're eighteen

1:21:49

and twelve a IPFW. That's

1:21:52

amazing. That, that's amazing.

1:21:54

Individual one basketball concerning the number of guarantee

1:21:57

games you had to play, the resources, the

1:21:59

fact that you're not even the most

1:22:01

famous i UPU, right,

1:22:03

like IUPU sorry pooe was much

1:22:06

more like wait what produced boor Wayne?

1:22:08

What the hell? It

1:22:11

was funny because I had an assistant named Jeff

1:22:13

Tongate, who's the head coach of the Oakland

1:22:15

University women, But he was assistant

1:22:17

and he was my assistant, and

1:22:21

he was at Division Division two school.

1:22:23

And when he came in on

1:22:25

day one and saw our budget at

1:22:30

ipf W, who was transitioning

1:22:32

from D one or D two to D one we

1:22:35

weren't in a league, he said, this

1:22:37

is you're funded. I got bad news.

1:22:40

You're funded like a bad, bad

1:22:42

Division two team and

1:22:47

go ahead, sorry, and

1:22:50

he said, the chances of us getting ten

1:22:54

home games out of twenty nine

1:22:56

or thirty at the time is going to be

1:22:59

really difficult. And

1:23:02

he said, you want worse news. He said, you're starting

1:23:04

going five out of the gate, and I said, what do you mean it goes

1:23:06

We got to play five by games, and

1:23:09

of the so many that

1:23:12

were played last year, let's

1:23:14

say there were two fifty two

1:23:16

and fifty buy games that were played last year.

1:23:18

He said three three teams

1:23:20

won a bye game. So

1:23:25

you start out going five. And

1:23:28

then the tough part was just getting

1:23:30

games, and even more difficult than that

1:23:32

was getting home games. But

1:23:38

you know that said that the building part, we finally

1:23:41

got into a league eventually.

1:23:43

And you said eighteen and twelve. It

1:23:46

was funny because the year I left, we were eighteen

1:23:48

and twelve, and that was the year

1:23:50

that Michigan State lost to UCLA

1:23:52

in the first round. And I

1:23:55

said, I think we were

1:23:58

eighteen and twelve, and I think Michigan State was nineteen

1:24:00

and twelve. I said, they're having a parade for us

1:24:02

in Pourt, Wayne, and they're ready

1:24:04

to fire is already in East Lansing, And

1:24:08

that's that. That gives you some perspective.

1:24:10

I said, we finished third in our league. Might

1:24:13

even finish a second. I don't remember, but um,

1:24:17

you know, Michigan we finished third

1:24:19

in the Big ten. We may be a three

1:24:21

seed, you

1:24:24

know. And I'd say eighteen at

1:24:26

the mid to low major level because of buy

1:24:28

games. Yeah, twenty

1:24:31

game high major more

1:24:33

than twenty. I mean, you can you know twenty

1:24:36

wins. I don't know if you know this, but over

1:24:38

one hundred teams per year win twenty

1:24:40

games. Um okay.

1:24:43

So so you go to

1:24:45

Michigan State. What is

1:24:47

tom Izzo like to work for? And look,

1:24:50

obviously you're not gonna say anything about a bunch of boss.

1:24:52

All I can tell you is, guys,

1:24:55

generally you know your staff, YouTube

1:24:58

haven't left and it's not for lack of opportunities.

1:25:00

So he must be prety damn good to work for. What

1:25:04

is he like? Everybody?

1:25:06

It's funny when I'm on the

1:25:09

road, get to know, somebody

1:25:11

talked to somebody, maybe just met from another

1:25:13

program. What's it like? What's it like working for his? Oh?

1:25:15

He's the best, you know? I say,

1:25:18

are you kidding me? They say, do you love

1:25:20

it? Do you love it? Dane? He

1:25:23

said, are you kidding me? It's

1:25:25

hard? Love

1:25:27

it winning? I love winning all

1:25:30

right, but coming into

1:25:32

work every day it's

1:25:35

hard work. I don't know if loves the right

1:25:37

word, but I'll tell you this dog, I

1:25:39

love him and he

1:25:42

makes me better every single day.

1:25:45

And you

1:25:50

know, I was looking at a job last year and

1:25:53

it paid more it was. I

1:25:55

wouldn't call it a lateral move, but it's

1:25:58

hard to make a lateral move from from

1:26:00

a program like this and a boss

1:26:03

like this. But I said,

1:26:05

I don't want to go. I said,

1:26:07

I just want to know that you bring

1:26:10

value or I'm sorry, I just

1:26:12

want to know that I'm still that you

1:26:14

think I'm still bringing value to your program

1:26:17

and that that

1:26:21

I'm still making your program better. And

1:26:26

you know, he obviously told me yes because I stayed.

1:26:28

But um, it's

1:26:32

it's every day that

1:26:35

that I feel I get better. And I just

1:26:37

told somebody that this morning. Um,

1:26:42

you know, why not take a certain job or go after

1:26:44

a certain job that's open. I said, you

1:26:48

know, it would take a lot to get me to leave,

1:26:51

and mainly because I'm

1:26:54

still getting better. I'm still learning here in

1:26:57

a major way and hard

1:27:00

to work for. But here's

1:27:03

the thing about Coachizo. What

1:27:06

he says he's gonna do, he's gonna do. And

1:27:10

at no point, even

1:27:13

in his worst day, even when

1:27:15

he's told me, you

1:27:18

know, I've done something wrong or done a bad

1:27:20

job, or he's disappointment at or yells

1:27:22

at me, or tells me look

1:27:25

for another job at the end of the year, at

1:27:27

no point do I not think that he doesn't

1:27:30

have my best interests in mind. I

1:27:32

know at all times that whatever he

1:27:34

does it it's for my best interests, much

1:27:36

like a player. But I've just never

1:27:38

been around a guy that's

1:27:41

more selfless than him. And we can talk about

1:27:43

him making big money and all that, you know what, he's

1:27:45

had chances to triple that and

1:27:48

put less time in in the NBA,

1:27:52

And so we're

1:27:56

in a part. We're in a situation

1:27:59

right now in college basketball that

1:28:03

there is not a better leader and I am going to

1:28:05

stroke my boss for a little for a second, there's

1:28:08

not a better leader slash

1:28:10

CEO out

1:28:12

there than than than coaches, because

1:28:15

he gets the most out of you, and

1:28:20

yet he does it out of love. And

1:28:22

we can talk about him getting in people's faces,

1:28:26

but him

1:28:28

doing that to somebody is different than say,

1:28:31

me or you doing that to somebody

1:28:33

because of the mont and love and time

1:28:35

and passion and work

1:28:40

that he puts into each individual player

1:28:42

and coach in person. You

1:28:45

know, this is a guy that grew

1:28:48

up in a really small Upper

1:28:50

Peninsula town, poor town.

1:28:53

He was poor. His dad owned a

1:28:55

shoe repair shop and

1:28:58

he was in their work. And if you didn't

1:29:01

five people came in to spend money that day,

1:29:03

Doug, you

1:29:05

needed him to spend money. So you had to learn

1:29:08

to treat people like

1:29:10

a million bucks and be genuine about

1:29:12

it. And so this is

1:29:14

just a larger a

1:29:18

larger two repair shop. Honestly, I've

1:29:20

just never been any anybody around

1:29:23

anybody that's as passionate and

1:29:25

caring about others as this guy.

1:29:28

As coachizo in his position,

1:29:31

he doesn't have to be he doesn't have to coach, he doesn't

1:29:33

have to put up with stuff. He could go to the NBA,

1:29:35

he could retire. It's

1:29:38

it's just an incredible time. And the book hasn't

1:29:41

been written, and I'm surprised why it has.

1:29:43

You can make a lot of money write in a book on this guy.

1:29:46

Where's fine sign? I

1:29:48

actually ran into the final four? But do you want him?

1:29:50

Have him him? Right? I want let me this?

1:29:52

I could I could change and I could, I could, I could write

1:29:55

it. Um Okay, so I gotta

1:29:57

I got a couple more. Um sure,

1:29:59

because I want to talk but this year's team. But

1:30:01

first I want to ask him. This is in regards

1:30:03

to this year's team. He has

1:30:05

certain things that he does, right, He always

1:30:08

he'd always you know, come over a call, time out

1:30:10

here, into game situations. Things you guys

1:30:12

prepare for. But what I've noticed

1:30:14

is some he

1:30:16

started some of it last year, but

1:30:19

really this year especially and

1:30:21

the team had some limitations. But I've noticed

1:30:24

kind of a bit of an evolution in

1:30:26

some of the stuff. You guys run like

1:30:29

you go back a couple of years ago when I was a CBS

1:30:31

like, it was the same plays and sets

1:30:34

and maybe even calls. You guys would run forever,

1:30:37

right, Look, and you still have your still

1:30:39

core. You know, you're

1:30:41

still rebounding, you're still transitioning. You

1:30:44

know, you guys are still running the lane super hard

1:30:46

and super wide. You guys still rebound

1:30:48

like wild dogs. But the actual

1:30:50

sets offensively have evolved.

1:30:53

There's some NBA looks, there's some ball

1:30:55

screens that are to the baseline side. There's some different

1:30:57

stuff. Who's the guy in the staff that convince

1:31:00

him to change. Well,

1:31:02

I'm sure there's a bunch of people, but um,

1:31:05

I guess from my perspective, my

1:31:07

approach with coach was, you know, he always

1:31:10

he's best friends with the late Flips,

1:31:12

Honors love Flip and

1:31:15

Flip would always come every summer and chalk

1:31:18

talk and the

1:31:20

coach would always I always,

1:31:22

since I've been here, would always hear coach talk about,

1:31:25

ah, you know, flipping his counters, flipping his

1:31:27

counters. Like that's

1:31:29

a good point, coach, Why why do you why

1:31:31

do you say flipping his counters? It's just you

1:31:34

know, like shouldn't shouldn't we have

1:31:37

counters to a set? Thinking

1:31:39

why doesn't he like counters? And

1:31:43

so so he

1:31:45

wasn't real big on counters

1:31:48

per se, you know, counterplace. So if

1:31:50

you run a pin down and

1:31:52

they go underneath the pin down,

1:31:55

you should we call it a fade. Just

1:31:57

script it, you know, just all right, try

1:32:00

a stretch. You're coming off of fate because they're going up the

1:32:02

gut. Counter Um

1:32:05

more motion principles, more reads. But

1:32:08

um,

1:32:10

after last year we lost the Syracuse.

1:32:13

Now there's a million reasons why,

1:32:15

but you don't want to hear any of them.

1:32:18

But I just

1:32:20

thought, all right, yeah,

1:32:23

yeah, some things

1:32:25

that we need to change, okay, And

1:32:28

I went down my list of things that need we need

1:32:30

to work on. Of course, naturally end

1:32:32

of the season, but I just got

1:32:34

to thinking, you know, today's

1:32:38

player, all right, forget about the personality,

1:32:40

the toughness, all that stuff. We can sort through

1:32:42

that. But to today's

1:32:44

player, especially the

1:32:47

young kids, are taught so much

1:32:50

with the ball in their hands. Okay,

1:32:52

and Miles Bridges is an example. I

1:32:55

just had this discussion with with a coach. But go ahead,

1:32:57

if you watch Miles play in college.

1:33:00

Okay, damn,

1:33:03

damn good. All those that good at good at what

1:33:05

he's good at. But one of the things

1:33:07

he had no idea how to do

1:33:09

when he got him, when we got him, was

1:33:12

played without the basketball. Right.

1:33:14

That takes time. So I said, we're pounding

1:33:17

a square peg to a round hole trying to teach

1:33:19

these guys how to move and cut, teach

1:33:22

them all these principles how to play without the

1:33:24

ball. And that's

1:33:26

great, we should and we should never stop. But

1:33:29

I said, we've got to start put putting

1:33:32

them in positions a that

1:33:34

they're good at and

1:33:38

b um, you

1:33:42

know, allowing them to not allowing

1:33:44

them. But but um catering

1:33:48

to you

1:33:51

know what, what what each player

1:33:53

can can do well? And

1:33:55

so I said, in addition, you

1:33:58

know, one of our biggest is that we

1:34:01

are we are running an NBA style

1:34:03

offense. And yet

1:34:07

the NBA seemingly has moved

1:34:09

a little bit. And we've,

1:34:11

as you kind of alluded to, you've

1:34:13

you, I said, we've we've stayed

1:34:16

the same, right, And

1:34:18

so we have guys like Miles Bridges

1:34:20

who and Jaren Jackson that

1:34:25

A they're young, incredibly young,

1:34:29

seventeen eighteen, and B really

1:34:32

don't know how to play without the ball. Jared was

1:34:34

better than Miles, but that's

1:34:37

a lot to ask considering we are so

1:34:39

young. And

1:34:41

so the the recruiting philosophy

1:34:45

I think needs to be changed. Needs to change

1:34:47

our recruiting philosophy. It's hard to survive

1:34:49

with a couple one and done. You

1:34:51

either got to go all in, in my opinion, or

1:34:54

really really limit your one and done. But b

1:34:58

we either recruit kids that know how to play way without

1:35:00

the ball, which is really hard to find, or

1:35:04

recruit the best talent that we

1:35:07

think fits our program, the best profile

1:35:09

that fits our program. And

1:35:12

you never know until they get here. But

1:35:14

what we do know is the guru generation,

1:35:19

the trainer generation, you

1:35:21

know, the kids that don't go play five on

1:35:23

five out in the park

1:35:26

or at you know, like

1:35:29

I call it one on cone generation. There

1:35:32

you go, that's right, We've got we've got

1:35:34

some amazing I that's what I sell

1:35:36

the recruits. It's funny. Look, I can put you through

1:35:38

the best cone drills you'll ever see, you

1:35:41

know, as good as as good as as

1:35:43

good as anybody, as good as the best in the country.

1:35:45

I could set up cones. Okay,

1:35:48

but you know the one thing

1:35:50

you're gonna get here is is this this and

1:35:52

this chance play for a championship, chance to play

1:35:54

for a Hall of famage, and you'll be pushed. Um.

1:35:58

But that was my that was

1:36:00

I know that was a long answer, but you

1:36:03

know that was my thought is we've got

1:36:05

to do a better job of putting

1:36:07

our players in position to

1:36:10

play to their strengths in

1:36:13

real time, you know, and

1:36:16

they'll they'll evolve, they'll develop. We believe in

1:36:18

versatility. And then the counters.

1:36:21

All right, so if they go start trapping

1:36:23

cashes his ball to ball screen, let's

1:36:26

not go away from Okay, can't, can't

1:36:28

set a ball screen for cashes. Let's

1:36:31

use it against them, you

1:36:33

know, let's let them trap cash and put

1:36:35

our guys in position to where now

1:36:38

we're going to punish them, you

1:36:41

know, if they start turning, if they start

1:36:43

playing on top of a down screen,

1:36:46

let's not go away from the down screen. Let's use

1:36:48

it against them. And

1:36:52

so those there were the adjustments that were my suggestions.

1:36:54

And coach is awesome. Coaches those

1:36:57

the best in listening. He may not agree

1:36:59

with it, but he's definitely gonna listen.

1:37:04

So how did now

1:37:07

that you've had a chance to decompress,

1:37:10

you guys had an amazing year, you know, right,

1:37:12

like not just you lose two lottery

1:37:15

picks and you win your tournament

1:37:17

in Vegas, you win the Big Ten, You

1:37:19

win the Big Ten tournament, you get to a final four, right,

1:37:21

like, of of things that can be checked,

1:37:24

you checked every box except for one, which

1:37:26

is in a national championship, right, I

1:37:28

mean, that's that's an incredible season. And then

1:37:30

you factor in all the injuries,

1:37:33

right, Like I think if you had arms, I

1:37:35

think you might you might go to a national championship

1:37:38

game. You know, forget about if you had

1:37:40

if you had Langford but

1:37:44

and I remember I was sitting us from

1:37:46

Steve Lavin and we did this. It was before one of

1:37:48

your games early in the season, and

1:37:51

I picked you guys to win the Big Ten

1:37:53

and I said, no

1:37:55

agendas. I was like, this is

1:37:58

a this is a great this is gonna be a great

1:38:00

college basketball team, because I'd seen in Vegas.

1:38:03

But how now that you've had a chance

1:38:06

to kind of decompress and think about it, how

1:38:09

did it come to be that you guys had this type

1:38:11

of year considering all

1:38:13

of the different things which could have caused it to go

1:38:15

south. Well,

1:38:17

I think what we did is we

1:38:22

knew going in that David Tillman was going to

1:38:24

be a great player for US. Okay, he

1:38:26

was having a great summer, changed

1:38:28

his body, and he just has an unbelievable

1:38:30

feel for the game. And

1:38:33

so we knew that Tillman was really going to help us.

1:38:35

He is he's

1:38:39

we used the term Draymond like, he's

1:38:41

Draymond like on defense defense

1:38:43

in that he makes up for a lot of mistakes

1:38:45

that other players make. And

1:38:49

um, we knew we had a

1:38:51

bunch of really good pieces. But the one

1:38:53

thing we couldn't really factor

1:38:55

is is um

1:38:59

we we didn't

1:39:01

know who was We needed people

1:39:04

to step up. So we felt like Tillman was going

1:39:06

to step up. We felt like obviously

1:39:09

Langford was going to be better. We

1:39:11

weren't sure on McQuaid or

1:39:14

Kenny Goings, and those guys stepped up in a

1:39:16

major way. We knew Matt was going to be a great

1:39:18

defender. Okay, Matt's one of the best

1:39:20

in the country,

1:39:24

but he just was so much more confident, confident

1:39:27

on offense. And I think part of

1:39:29

that was that Josh

1:39:31

Langford got hurt and Matt didn't

1:39:34

feel the you know, didn't

1:39:36

feel the guilt, maybe that it

1:39:38

was his time to make a player shoot when he knew

1:39:41

he had another elite player

1:39:43

next to him, you

1:39:46

know, Nick Ward getting hurt was was was

1:39:50

devastating, but it also helped other

1:39:52

guys gained

1:39:54

confidence and get better. M

1:39:58

Cassius Winston, you know, when Josh went down,

1:40:00

that was our other that was our third score.

1:40:02

You know, you had cash, Nick cash,

1:40:05

just when it's in Nick Ward and Josh Lankford, we felt

1:40:07

we're going to do the bulk of our scoring. So

1:40:10

then it forced us to be a

1:40:12

little bit more creative with cashes, and

1:40:15

there were times in games where maybe

1:40:18

I would be calling something for another

1:40:20

player to at least get the ball and

1:40:24

and there was Nope, we're ball screened

1:40:26

for Cash. Give Cash Bass,

1:40:28

he'll make a play. And

1:40:33

so I think that when it's all

1:40:35

said and done, how did we hang on

1:40:37

and keep getting better. I'll

1:40:41

give coaching some credit, I'll

1:40:44

give culture

1:40:46

a lot of credit, but

1:40:50

I think in the end, the players bought

1:40:53

into what we were doing, Doug, and that

1:40:55

is hard to do, especially when you've got McDonald's

1:40:59

all American kids that had a ton

1:41:01

of success, kids that are driven to be pros.

1:41:05

They bought into what we were doing. I'd say,

1:41:08

you're right. If we had Kyle Arns,

1:41:11

we probably would have played in that championship game.

1:41:13

And that's not to take anything away from Texas

1:41:15

Tech, but that

1:41:19

experienced player would would make a huge

1:41:21

difference because when Aaron Henry got in followed trouble

1:41:26

in the first half of that semifinal

1:41:28

game, we

1:41:30

felt like we could play six and a half guys

1:41:33

and the half was going to spell.

1:41:35

It was going to give mcquait a one or two minute

1:41:37

break and maybe Cascious a one or two.

1:41:40

We couldn't give mcquait a break, and I think it wore

1:41:42

mcquait out. And

1:41:44

I will give Matt McQuaid

1:41:47

credit or Texas Tech credit

1:41:49

for that. Could we have played Aaron Henry with

1:41:52

two files in the first half, Yeah,

1:41:54

but that's not really what we do. And we

1:41:57

felt like as long as we were close in the

1:41:59

game, we didn't need to play him. But maybe

1:42:02

that's for another day. No, Listen,

1:42:04

I mean I would, I generally would disagree

1:42:06

with that that philosophy. I thought it nearly

1:42:08

got that same thought. Um

1:42:10

hurt Virginia when they took Diaqute out with two

1:42:12

fouls, and then heck in the

1:42:15

that they took he took um

1:42:18

uh. He took ty Drome out with with four fouls

1:42:21

with with like five minutes to go against

1:42:24

Auburn, and ty Drome has never foul out

1:42:26

of a game. He only had four fouls

1:42:28

one other game this year, you know. And they don't foul or they

1:42:30

don't actually they're like Michigan. They don't get called for fouls

1:42:33

or they don't. They don't foul. But they

1:42:35

put Zion back in in our game and he

1:42:37

had two fouls. Yeah, listen,

1:42:40

I I think it's it's very much case

1:42:42

dependent, and I

1:42:44

played for a guy who would sit there and go

1:42:46

like, well, coach, you want

1:42:48

you want to leave him in or do you want to take him out? Like you

1:42:50

get five stop

1:42:52

fouling. Oh

1:42:57

yes, it was a It was a very simple filouse

1:43:00

you stop out and film's sitting next to me

1:43:02

and help me coach Like all right, okay,

1:43:05

I guess moving on. But

1:43:08

hey, listen, it was an incredible

1:43:10

incredible year. Uh

1:43:13

but you know what one last one last

1:43:15

thing on on I want to do on on

1:43:17

coach coach night because I got

1:43:19

time. I got time. No, no, I no, I know. But

1:43:21

with in terms of a podcast, you don't want it

1:43:23

to because people will download it more. If it's a

1:43:25

little bit, you know, you can splice it up, right, I

1:43:28

could splice it up. I don't know if you're worthy of two

1:43:30

pods. I don't know that. Um and I don't

1:43:32

know. I was saying, you can cut some stuff out. I

1:43:35

don't want to cut anything out. It's been freaking good.

1:43:38

Um put late in late night and have me put

1:43:40

some people to sleep. What

1:43:42

uh you

1:43:44

know? Like he he he was. He was on campus

1:43:47

a last week obviously, he made an appearance

1:43:49

and obviously he's got some memory issues that that's

1:43:51

working. What what what?

1:43:54

What feel what? I feel bad? Like? I feel like, look,

1:43:56

I'm I'm part of the Coach Sutton family. I

1:43:58

feel terrible that the image that people have

1:44:00

of him now is you know, um

1:44:03

in a wheelchair and yeah,

1:44:05

you know, unable to You're unable

1:44:07

to feel what it was like.

1:44:10

And people are right

1:44:13

and am I am I crazy? But you guys

1:44:15

playing against Texas Tech, like, there's

1:44:17

just there was a lot of Bob Knight in how Texas

1:44:19

Tech played, how they competed. You mentioned

1:44:21

the defense in the motion in the offense

1:44:24

right, like if you were to relay a man. I

1:44:27

can't say exactly what it would be like if Coach Knight

1:44:29

was in his prime, but a lot of what it might have

1:44:31

looked like was what Texas Tech was like. No,

1:44:35

you know what with the players they had, They

1:44:38

had men, and they had men that were

1:44:40

willing to, you

1:44:42

know, lay down their bodies for the

1:44:46

betterment of the team. And I

1:44:50

was just fascinated with one

1:44:53

that that their motion

1:44:56

and they didn't run a ton of it against us. No.

1:44:59

Um, But I give Coach

1:45:01

Beard all the credit, especially with they

1:45:03

got tired by the way, Garden, you guys, since they

1:45:05

stopped moving, they kind of stoped running when you guys made

1:45:07

that run the second half, they were gass. They

1:45:09

were tired, Yeah, they were.

1:45:12

They were. And I think that you know, obviously Owens

1:45:14

gets hurt with his ankle against us, and that's

1:45:16

nobody's fault and it's awful

1:45:19

to see it happen, But I

1:45:21

think it impacted him for the next game too,

1:45:24

you know, against Virginia. And I think that

1:45:27

you know, we did a number on them, as they

1:45:29

did a number on us. But

1:45:32

I think whichever team made it through

1:45:34

to Virginia was going to have a tough, tough game

1:45:37

for the simple fact that the

1:45:39

two teams that played in the second game on

1:45:42

Saturday night, it was a war. And

1:45:47

you know, it's back to the coach

1:45:49

Night, Coach Beard. Um. It's

1:45:53

interesting that any anybody who runs

1:45:56

motion today is you know,

1:45:58

I feel for him, but I fire them.

1:46:00

But their toughness, you know, it did it reminded

1:46:03

me of um, you

1:46:06

know those Coach Knights first team. You

1:46:08

know, he always talks the first championship team

1:46:10

with Quinn Buckner and Scott May and those guys.

1:46:14

It was a tough, rugged,

1:46:18

blue collar to one to

1:46:20

five team. And

1:46:24

I think that, you

1:46:26

know, if you get a chance to ask coaches, oh,

1:46:28

I think he'll he'll

1:46:32

readily admit that that

1:46:34

team was tougher, tough, if not

1:46:37

tougher than us, um,

1:46:40

especially in that game. Yeah, and

1:46:42

then rarely and that rarely happs. Then Moody made

1:46:44

some shots. They just you know, they made some shots and you know,

1:46:46

paying from yeah, and

1:46:48

and playing from behind his hard. It's just you

1:46:51

know, so much better to me, we

1:46:53

did. Yeah, No, I mean, yes, you had

1:46:56

had you had a run, You had him within grasp.

1:46:58

They they I talked to those afterwards.

1:47:00

I was like, you guys stopped running offense, like dude, we were

1:47:02

tired. Guarding them is hard. Yeah,

1:47:05

it's funny because I mentioned

1:47:07

McQuaid being exhausted. You

1:47:10

know that Shotty gets in the corner from Aaron

1:47:12

Henry. Yeah, okay,

1:47:15

late in the game. He makes

1:47:17

that nine and a

1:47:19

half times out of ten. But I think that Henry

1:47:23

getting in follow trouble really

1:47:26

hurt us. They're not playing Aaron

1:47:28

by any sense. Just McQuaid

1:47:30

makes that shot nine and a half times out of ten,

1:47:33

and he missed it to tie the game, Toman

1:47:36

gets the ball stolen with we're down

1:47:38

four a minute and a half. Hey,

1:47:41

those guys did a number on us too. It was

1:47:43

a great game, probably

1:47:45

not from a fan's perspective, but I disagree.

1:47:48

I was sitting there watching. I thought it was like it was like watching

1:47:50

there was like watching four prize three

1:47:52

prize fights. It was that was was

1:47:54

fantastic. But you're a coach. I don't consider

1:47:56

you a fan. You're a coach. I'm not a

1:47:58

cudn't have a team. You know, you

1:48:01

don't have any well, I have

1:48:03