0:00

Welcome. To the Holy Post. Richard.

0:02

Dawkins says that he doesn't believe

0:04

one word of the Christian faith,

0:06

but he now considers himself a cultural

0:08

Christian. Any wants to defend the

0:10

christian values of his country against foreign

0:12

influence? Does this represent an alignment

0:15

between the new Atheists and Christian

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nationalists? Then. Curtis change shares about

0:19

The After Party the new curriculum

0:21

he's developed with David French and

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Russell more to help Christians focus

0:25

on hope and humility rather than

0:27

partisanship. Also. This week Mark Driscoll

0:29

gets booted from a men's conference and

0:31

another and fraction by a Florida man

0:33

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0:59

Is episode six hundred Thirteen Hey,

1:01

there was a backdoor post by

1:03

cast. I'm Phil Visscher I'm here

1:06

with Sky Jittery Hi Sky. High.

1:08

Fell. Skies beaming

1:10

and from the home office

1:12

in Wheaton, Illinois. Animals. Are you

1:15

with Kailash? Yes! Hi Caitlin! I

1:18

fell. Hey what do you are where

1:20

you going to say Sky? you are beaming and I

1:22

will hold off as it is not new my home

1:24

office. Oh. No, the

1:26

Home Office of Holly Post. Yea, I

1:28

didn't save us and I didn't say

1:31

skies beaming and from his home office

1:33

I didn't say that I know v

1:35

Home office as very. There's a tomato,

1:37

tomato, varied writing, distinct difference and Caitlin

1:40

is beaming in from, where are you

1:42

Caitlin. I. Am

1:44

in Dallas for our Holy Post

1:46

event tonight which is that only

1:49

my goodness and we are way.

1:51

Way. Way where near where that sorry I talked over the

1:53

name of where it is. It's. At

1:55

Irving Bible Church. Irving Bible

1:57

Church. Okay, so if any one is listening to.

2:00

On Wednesday your two days late

2:02

you miss the can't answer. That

2:04

they honey. Very professional podcast studio so

2:06

I'm recording from their very cool. I

2:08

literally got to go with a little

2:10

switch and on there's a light on

2:12

outside the door that like a red

2:14

segments as recording. It's. A Very

2:17

fine that is so cool.

2:19

Yeah, nobody can afford nice

2:21

stuff like mega churches. That's

2:23

why I was. I have

2:25

already. We're them. You

2:28

have are you do have a light. I

2:30

have one of those lights in my home office. And.

2:33

Not to the for when we're doing podcast

2:35

but also when I'm recording my with God

2:37

daily daily devotional. So smart. Recorded home and

2:39

put that on so that the kids and

2:41

the dog and the wife in the people's

2:43

yeah I'm I'm sure the Diamond K know

2:46

I've seen since a scratch on the door.

2:49

Yeah, but does he not do it when the light is

2:51

on? He

2:54

shouldn't. Have yeah

2:56

and Train em. You're asking too

2:58

much of Steve. Okay, aside from

3:01

the theme song, Was.

3:04

The news that most.

3:09

Of those. Vows

3:12

guy that the whole

3:15

house and not all

3:17

the post and sometimes.

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Today's episode is sponsored by Sundays. This

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food you feed your dog! And thanks to

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Sundays for sponsoring this episode. Last.

4:36

Week. We. Had a story

4:38

that started with the with two

4:40

words florida Man and included the

4:42

use of a bible. And

4:45

if you don't remember, as a Florida

4:48

man went into a Walgreens to buy

4:50

some headphones, gotten and gargle with the

4:52

manager and smacked the manager in the

4:54

face with his bible on Easter Sunday.

4:57

That's. Really something. And you

4:59

would think it'll be weeks

5:01

and weeks and weeks before

5:03

we have another story involving

5:05

a Florida man. And

5:07

a bible. And of eyeball.

5:10

And. It was about six days.

5:13

Florida. Man climbs one hundred

5:16

and fifty foot t mobile

5:18

tower with bible, throws objects

5:20

at police. Objects

5:25

that are not the bible. Now he

5:27

did not throw the bible. And me,

5:29

though classy, that's good news is

5:31

respectful and odd. Incident occurred in

5:33

Miami when thirty eight year old

5:35

man named Richard Smith climbed a

5:37

hundred and fifty foot T mobile

5:39

cell phone tower brandishing a bible

5:41

and disrupting service. According. To

5:43

Reports Smith's activities created a

5:46

major disruption, resulting in a

5:48

half million dollars in damages

5:51

and impacting nearby businesses and

5:53

communities for five hours. He.

5:56

Was actually turning stuff off

5:58

and disconnect the stuff on

6:00

cell tower and then throwing

6:03

things down at the police

6:05

like a monkey. Miss

6:08

Isn't that not not done yet?

6:10

Here we go. Smith is that

6:12

began at seven am. Upon reaching

6:14

the top, Smith shut off the

6:16

cell tower. Eye witnesses reported that

6:18

Smith perched atop the tower repeatedly

6:21

shouted. Case. You

6:23

wanna make any guesses at what

6:25

he repeatedly shrouded from the top

6:27

of the tower? Guys

6:30

didn't related to any conspiracy

6:32

theories. Ah

6:34

not on not not

6:37

explicitly know. How.

6:41

Metal behind it which may have been motivated

6:43

by some theory, but I am just. You

6:46

and guess you know. Now. I don't. Target.

6:50

Repeatedly shouted i've got a job

6:52

to do I've got to finish

6:54

my job. Negotiations

6:57

between and negotiations between Smith

7:00

and the police lasted approximately

7:02

four hours before he agreed

7:04

to descend voluntarily. His actions

7:07

indicated a level of knowledge

7:09

about tower operations as he

7:11

avoided touching power supply clamps

7:13

that could have done right

7:16

is fried his bible so.

7:19

What? Are you make of that? That's interesting

7:21

and there's actually a picture of him

7:23

or top the cell tower. He's wearing

7:25

a red shirt and blue shorts and

7:28

he has his bible tucked into the

7:30

back waistband a be sure it's like

7:32

at a pistol. Says

7:34

I in sword yet his sword he

7:36

needed his sword for in case there

7:39

is a sword drill on top of

7:41

the T Mobile cell tower. At.

7:44

As amusing as the scene

7:47

sounds, I'm yeah. I'm

7:49

guessing there's a mental health and going on

7:51

here. Yes, Doesn't. Work.

7:54

Like digit would you? Did you not guess

7:56

that for the guy who slapped a Walgreens

7:58

mountain with their bibles? Oh yeah, me while

8:00

I'm here. Going on the I am. It.

8:04

Maybe maybe not. I mean there are people who are

8:06

just. Aggressive. And violent.

8:08

But the the. Climbing.

8:10

Of a tower and shouting something that doesn't

8:12

quite make sense. It

8:14

was unless yeah it's a really good

8:16

at least not johnny lot of the

8:19

protests or may not have a dog

8:21

something he doesn't on hell a banner

8:23

seen something ones is now Lego banner.

8:26

This. Seems very related to other times

8:28

when people has held up a

8:30

bible that had no discernible connection

8:32

to the other things they were

8:34

saying or doing like. Another example

8:36

of. Just as you have

8:38

a bible in your pocket or in your hand, doesn't

8:40

mean the thing you're saying or doing is. Good

8:43

or not, a sin or. Healthy.

8:46

The. Questions was the bible upside down?

8:49

She. Came probably have a smoker

8:51

headed sky you think they could.

8:53

There could have been eschatological motives.

8:56

Was there is there any aliens angle

8:58

to this right? Well that's why I

9:00

asked about the conspiracy theory think again

9:02

Spears if there is really playing the

9:04

cellphones and signals and mean or microchips

9:06

and vaccines or whatever. And so I

9:09

did. Known as part of. What

9:11

this guy was about. Yeah.

9:13

We don't know yet. he is

9:15

currently in custody. And

9:17

that the nice thing is upon

9:20

coming down he expressed gratitude towards

9:22

the first responders and cooperated with

9:24

authorities. So he what

9:26

he didn't want to other than throwing things that the

9:28

police. Didn't

9:30

make trouble, kids just

9:32

wanted to do his

9:34

job with his bible

9:36

in his shorts waistband.

9:39

Okay, but to be fair, it doesn't sound

9:41

like the Bible had any active role in

9:43

this event. right? Maybe

9:45

he walks around everywhere with the bible and

9:48

I really felt. I. Think both of

9:50

these stories are very American in that like

9:52

weird stuff happens but in America there's just

9:54

usually also a Bible. Their. Yes,

9:56

Weird stuff happens and a bible.

10:00

Rak. A Bmw news segment for

10:02

us felt something with a bible

10:04

yeah something weird and survival. I

10:07

and and at support I'm guessing

10:09

I'm hoping many of them start

10:11

with Florida man cause. You

10:14

know cause then there's gonna be

10:16

a Gator, There's gonna be something

10:18

fun. Hey Florida listeners are you

10:21

offended by are focusing. May

10:24

also have your state or are you

10:26

having the same thoughts when you walk

10:28

at herself? That's a very. Long running

10:30

trope in humorous media. The Florida man

10:32

thing, it's on. Its everywhere. Been around

10:35

for decades. Yeah, yeah, or without blaming.

10:37

I know, My

10:39

my As you know the strange thing

10:41

happens. and there's a bible that we

10:43

could trademark that could be there for

10:45

hours on end up and a bible.

10:48

And. A Bible was there. Okay,

10:50

did you hear I don't wanna

10:52

talk about this very long but

10:54

it was interesting as As and

10:57

Kristin Do May wrote about it.

10:59

Did you hear what happened at

11:01

the Strong Men? Stronger Men's Conference?

11:03

The Strong Smelling Man Conference at

11:06

a are now the Stronger Mans

11:08

Conference in Springfield, Missouri add a

11:10

big mega church there When Mark

11:12

Driscoll got up to speak, Member

11:14

who Mark Driscoll as Sky Dream

11:17

remarked, you're a hybrid. Of I'm. Using

11:20

that he'd gone away after he

11:22

was disgraced and and fired by

11:24

the board. But it hasn't gone

11:26

away, he just has because I

11:29

know I'm Erica Fell. This is

11:31

a medal hasn't gone away and

11:33

a bible and he showed off

11:35

as the Stronger Men's Conference. A

11:38

conference which in the past has

11:40

included things like monster trucks driving

11:42

over cars and boxing. Men, Boxing.

11:45

And so it's a macho it

11:47

say hey guys were macho and

11:49

we're Christians conference and about. And

11:53

a Bible says. That's

11:56

our next Sunday coffee mugs and

11:58

the bible. Sir

12:00

Mark Driscoll was speaking cause of course

12:03

he's manly man. He's known for yelling

12:05

at men to get their act together.

12:07

and you know, be men, Be strong

12:09

men, Not a feminist, not week, be

12:11

strong. So he was invited to speak

12:13

at this. Stronger

12:16

mans card for it's slightly

12:18

faster Horses is A is

12:20

a big. Our Country

12:22

Music Festival. In

12:24

Michigan Huge Country Music festival Michigan it's

12:26

called Faster Horses. Yeah, I don't know

12:28

why, but you can either have a

12:30

faster horse or you can be a

12:32

stronger man. but you can't have both.

12:34

So and this against Mark Driscoll chose

12:37

to be a stronger Man but the

12:39

opening acts because they don't just have

12:41

opening speakers of opening acts. The opening

12:43

act at the Stronger Men's Conference. And

12:45

the bible was a man

12:48

who was at a poll.

12:50

A. Poll was set up on

12:52

the stage, a very muscular

12:54

man showed up, took off

12:56

his shirt, which was actually

12:59

a red leather top of

13:01

some sort. Pulled. Out

13:03

a sword Swallowed the sword

13:05

and then climbed the poll.

13:08

With. This when you anyway the

13:11

sword to down his throat.

13:13

That's the I A manly that manly

13:15

wouldn't say I'm is Halen you would

13:18

say wow if you saw a man

13:20

do that you would say while. The

13:22

only thing that would make it better as if like the

13:25

polls on fire. Ah, That's

13:27

really the Fire Amateur summer. Burning.

13:29

Yeah, there should have been fire in

13:31

there somewhere. I driscoll. Didn't. Go

13:34

for that. He didn't like it, but

13:36

instead of telling the organizer of the

13:38

conference before he got up to speak

13:40

that he didn't like it, he decided

13:42

to just save his thoughts until he

13:44

was on stage at the conference with

13:47

the organizer sitting in front of him.

13:49

And said there was a jazz a

13:52

bell spirit that opened our events. There

13:54

was a platform it was a high

13:56

place on it was a poll at

13:58

Asher A poll. The same thing that

14:01

used in a strip club for women

14:03

who have the jazz a bell spirit

14:05

to seduce men. In. Front of

14:07

that was a man who ripped

14:09

his shirt off like a woman

14:11

does in front of a poll

14:13

at a strip club. That man

14:15

then ascended and then he swallowed

14:17

a sword. This

14:19

infuriated the organizer of

14:22

the conference who. Called.

14:24

Out from the audience. You've

14:26

gone out said you're outta line Mark

14:29

he yelled from the audience. And

14:32

then he yelled, you're Done

14:34

And. Cancelled.

14:36

Mark Driscoll talk and Mark

14:38

Driscoll had to leave the

14:41

conference because he found the

14:43

exciting manly opening act a

14:45

little to. Demonic.

14:49

Yeah. And then pay. I saw the clip

14:51

somewhere on mine are though the pastor

14:53

of the churches in organizer the conference

14:55

whoever he was gone up afterwards and

14:57

said that Marks and violated Matthew eighteen

14:59

are not taught her to him directly

15:01

first about his offense rather than going

15:03

on of the platform. Raise.

15:05

Your I think we'd I think

15:07

we'd all agree with that right?

15:10

If you are offended at the

15:12

Asher a poll sword swallowing stripper

15:14

at your your Bible conference you

15:16

should talk to the organizer. I

15:19

think this story is. Absolutely.

15:22

Amazing. It is.

15:24

It is the turn

15:26

doc of consumer Christmas.

15:30

Eve my record ah can do yeah yeah

15:32

a do unpack that sky jump and paso

15:35

if for those who don't know it is

15:37

to duck in his it's a turkey stuff

15:39

with a duck stuff with a chicken. And.

15:41

Some people. Cook. This is a

15:44

the others. Poultry. Within a

15:46

poultry kind of. Kind of cuisine, things

15:48

that are doc and so on one level.

15:51

You have these various elements that

15:53

kind of just encapsulate consumer christianity,

15:55

and the central one here is

15:58

that of spectacle. Like. Image

16:00

in the monster truck thing. And so here you

16:02

have a conference opening up With yeah, this guy

16:04

with the poor with the sword with the whole

16:06

thing. I've never been to this conference but I've

16:09

been to other. Christian Conferences

16:11

ministry conferences that I had to

16:13

attend when I was working for

16:15

city and report on and I

16:17

have seen elephants on stages. I

16:19

have seen mariachi bands walking through

16:22

crowds I have seen as a

16:24

high dive act where a high

16:26

diver dove into a baby pool

16:28

of water. I have seen the

16:30

craziest, stupidest things and ministry conferences

16:32

and I've never been able to

16:34

understand why this happens By there

16:36

is is to be clear. Are

16:39

these men's events? Know these

16:41

are ministry conferences. I've.

16:44

seen other weird of a men's events. Via.

16:47

It's like that. for some reason there is

16:49

this. Circus. Like spectacular

16:51

desire for weirdness and.

16:54

Only yeah, the like carrying that sound but

16:56

I guess I've seen that at like. Have

16:59

gone on says this as so so you

17:01

have the spectacular elemental this Okay, then. Wrapped.

17:04

Around that chicken is of the

17:07

doc of spiritual warfare. Because

17:09

you have Mark Driscoll here saying that this isn't

17:12

just a poll, it's an Asher report which is

17:14

a a pull that was set up in the

17:16

Old testament. a high place for people to worship

17:18

idols and he talks about a spirit of jazz

17:20

a bell and also like he brings in spiritual

17:22

warfare to the summer. I don't like.

17:24

why isn't a flagpole. And Asher

17:26

a poll. but this poll is an ass

17:29

or a pole and as far as I

17:31

know the ass ripples in the Old Testament

17:33

were not were prostitutes are German was that

17:35

there were for strippers would this yet so

17:37

edges. But the fact that he brings in

17:39

like the some monique spiritual warfare element to

17:41

this a slinky couldn't just say hey this

17:43

is really obscene and unbecoming of. Of

17:45

the seriousness of this conference, he has

17:47

to make it spiritual warfare. I think

17:49

that's like right in line with was

17:51

consumer crochet and then it has to

17:53

be sexual. It. Catches be this

17:56

is trivializing the gospel or

17:58

this is not worshipful. This is

18:00

ridiculous. Yes to make of sexual by talking master

18:02

proposals and a man stripping off his shirt. nos.

18:04

I don't know if anyone else thought the act

18:07

was sexual because it has been. This was a

18:09

crazy circus act with a really strong guy with

18:11

a sort of Mcmartin just makes of sexual and

18:13

then the sort of. The

18:15

could a garage hear that? The know that was the

18:17

already did the turkey. What's what are your wrapping around

18:20

the turkey? What?

18:22

Will your will. It was bigger than a turkey

18:24

or ostrich. Guide stuff the

18:26

Turkey inside an ostrich. Again,

18:28

And will around the whole thing

18:31

is this. Vacant. Had

18:33

thing it's rapid and him has taken

18:35

of victim. yes. Yes, So

18:37

on one hand, you get the passer

18:39

going up going. I'm a victim basically

18:41

because. I've. Been having my nephew

18:43

eighteen rights violated his Mark Russell talking about

18:45

this publicly rather than coming to me privately

18:47

and I don't have marked risk of make

18:50

and how this but the fact that he

18:52

didn't talk to this passer behind the scenes

18:54

are going like do that was wrong with

18:56

that was inappropriate that he waited to get

18:58

up on the stage to to proclaim his

19:00

judgment on this whole thanks to his mouth

19:02

it sees a prophet of God but it's

19:05

like the whole thing is is all done

19:07

for the audience on every level. and whether

19:09

it's Mark. Calling. This out for

19:11

the audience or the passer getting up in

19:13

defending themselves. And for the ice, it's all

19:15

for the consumption of the audience and side.

19:17

Holy cow, What level do you want to

19:19

pick up? this thing and the layers of.

19:22

Dysfunction. And grotesqueness

19:24

is that's why. Called the

19:26

turducken of Consumer Christianity is

19:28

like one perfectly constructed story,

19:31

that elixir, not a whole

19:33

freaking mass. That's. Good

19:35

mess as you missed an important one.

19:37

Oh, was that hell. Why

19:40

on earth when there's a man

19:42

that he believes is sexually seducing,

19:44

etc. A bunch of man. Why

19:47

is the phrase you use jazz

19:49

about Spirits Because it always the

19:51

women that are? It's the problem

19:53

is that he's finance and he

19:56

seducing nance any be seducing man.

19:58

That's very why. As. The

20:01

series of the man who who cut

20:03

off his concubine or the men inside

20:05

of and Gomorrah that tried to assault

20:07

the other met like there are writer

20:09

wine rate metaphors in scripture. you can

20:11

you hang worse? a man seducing other

20:13

men. But of course with Driscoll with

20:15

this kind of brand of masculinity, the

20:18

background. Besides, really women. Were

20:20

I, we have only one Leon

20:22

how are as surrogates lack of

20:24

throughout massage and eight we've got

20:26

spectacle. We've got victimhood. Wow.

20:29

Certain Warfare yeah, we just

20:31

stuff the asteroids inside an

20:33

elephant and as his, you

20:35

know. Wow. That's something. Okay

20:37

guys, folks at home. men,

20:39

women, and children. There

20:42

isn't necessarily anything to learn

20:44

from this story. I apologize

20:46

for the lack of of

20:48

application to this story. It's

20:50

just profoundly interesting. If you're

20:53

serious, What happened last year

20:55

at the Stronger Man Conference.

20:57

A take came out into

20:59

the arena. An actual army

21:02

take. And then the

21:04

dirt. the top opened and who

21:06

was driving it? Chuck Norris the

21:08

action hero for nine. Years

21:11

joking. I'm not the are you

21:13

being serious? Yeah, that's what happened

21:15

last year. Yes,

21:18

I forget. What is is helping

21:20

me view all the women's events that

21:22

I scoff at. Speak has ah ha,

21:24

there's a lot of like you're beautiful

21:26

and here's t and it's pretty. Honestly,

21:29

I'll take all of that over. That.

21:31

Now any day. I also that's a

21:34

big is t over the sea and

21:36

it's funny. Now I'm it's a drinker.

21:38

I'm all for it. By the part

21:40

I don't get is if Driscoll new

21:42

the reputation of this conference that they

21:44

do these over the top spectacular. Rid.

21:47

He has never probing with over the

21:49

tell us nightingale. Yeah, right.

21:51

So it was specifically a shirtless man

21:53

send the in a poll on a

21:55

stripper pole yet on an accurate but

21:57

idol. I. Didn't see much of the.

22:00

Video but from what I could tell the man was

22:02

not. Working. This poll the

22:04

way stripper would he would. You know that

22:06

lot of the I have no idea of

22:08

i like a specific. Okay

22:11

I'm just saying I don't know what

22:13

and her skull saw know what? I

22:15

did Not look at the bridge videos

22:17

of all that sexual that's is not

22:19

gonna leave. What about them Are gonna

22:21

leave that alone? Okay, I'm gonna move

22:23

on. Hey y'all are all of our

22:25

stories. Have a point. Accept that there's

22:27

some the messed up stuff happening and

22:30

sometimes is is can't look away cause

22:32

it's so. It's so I'm

22:34

It's that so messed up, oppressive. More

22:36

road cleared. Yeah, as low

22:38

weird ruff ruff a brothel. More our

22:40

federal for more. wrote a piece. About

22:43

New Atheism: Because Richard Dawkins is in

22:45

the news. Richard Dawkins haven't heard about

22:47

him for a while. He wrote he

22:50

was one of the four horsemen of

22:52

the apocalypse of New Atheism. Back.

22:54

In me, I'm early two

22:56

thousand after. After Nine Eleven,

22:58

there was a lot of

23:00

talk. There was a new

23:02

atheist. Explosion of

23:04

publishing that while religion really is bad

23:06

and we're not going to pretend it

23:09

isn't anymore, we're not gonna be nice

23:11

about this anymore. We now see how

23:13

high the stakes are that we have

23:15

to get rid of all religion. And

23:17

so we're taking the gloves off and

23:19

Richard Dawkins wrote his famous book, the

23:21

God Delusion that was going to make

23:23

everyone are give up. On Christianity and

23:25

then the whole thing kind of

23:27

petered out to a certain extent,

23:29

and the movement. Kind. Of ended,

23:31

he said something last week that caught

23:34

a lot of people's attention. On

23:37

he said in a viral

23:39

video he was arguing for

23:41

Christianity. Kind of. This is

23:43

Russell Moore describing it. Dawkins notes

23:45

the plummeting of church attendance and

23:47

Christian identification in his country, the

23:49

Uk, and says that on one

23:51

level he's glad to see it.

23:54

Yet, on the other hand, Dawkins

23:56

continues he's quote slightly horrified to

23:58

see the promotion of Ramadan. In

24:00

the Uk, the holy month

24:02

for muslims are after all,

24:05

Doc. And said he's a Christian In

24:07

a christian country. And. That

24:09

is very confusing So that he clarified

24:11

he made it clear that he's a

24:13

cultural christian, not a believer. He loves

24:15

the Hims and the Christmas carols in

24:17

the cathedrals. Everything about Christianity accept wealth

24:20

The Christ he says. I like the

24:22

live in a culturally christian country although

24:24

I do not believe a single word

24:26

of the christian faith. So.

24:29

Are Christians have been trying to figure

24:31

out how to react to this bomb.

24:33

Our buddy Mike Bird wrote a piece

24:35

covering it as well. like is this

24:38

good? Because Dawkins is promoting. Christianity.

24:42

Or is it bad because

24:44

he's promoting a completely gutted

24:46

cultural christianity? Which also leads

24:48

to I've heard some of

24:50

our our Krista Nationalists friends

24:52

say cultural christianity is actually

24:54

a good thing because it

24:56

points a whole culture in

24:58

the direction of christian values.

25:00

It puts Christian values in

25:02

public. Russell Moore has said

25:04

cultural christianity is a bad

25:06

thing and the sooner it

25:08

dies out in the Us,

25:10

the better. So

25:12

Richard Dawkins. Seems.

25:15

To agree with Christian

25:17

nationalists. And. Not with

25:19

Russell more. What? Do you

25:21

make of that? guys? Who. Came.

25:25

And went on makes you are going to

25:27

Macys go first because sky versatile trying to

25:29

get over your to duck and thing so

25:31

caitlin. As a lot and. I.

25:34

Don't think that the question should be is

25:37

it good or is it bad because it's

25:39

I think a mix of both. A part

25:41

of what Doc into their ticket leading I

25:43

think is a really true that advocates Tom

25:45

Holland to has his line about has another

25:47

new Atheists are sign off the branch they're

25:49

sitting on. When it comes to that the

25:51

fact that they want forward a vision of

25:53

common lice together any liberal democracy and which

25:55

we value the inherent and dignity of all

25:57

humans in which we have certain shared values.

26:00

In how we treat each other in the

26:02

things we value as important and his point

26:04

is that you're not getting that from, know

26:06

where you're getting that as a gift of

26:08

Christian faith over time in the country that

26:10

you have lived and and you should recognize

26:12

that and I think to that. Like.

26:14

In that context, for cultural, christianity is a

26:16

good thing in the sense that I would

26:19

prefer to live in a community where people

26:21

even if they are not christians have by

26:23

osmosis learned some values the I think have

26:25

their route and christianity. I think it's better

26:27

than better community to live in than a

26:29

community without that. On. The

26:32

other hand the part of it that's

26:34

really negative and with this is it's

26:36

a good point that both Dawkins and

26:38

Chris nationals are doing the same thing

26:40

with Christianity which is instrumentalize in it

26:42

for another goal slam Zoc and saying

26:44

I like Cassini to the extent that

26:46

it provides the things for me Chris

26:48

a national thing I like Christianity to

26:50

the extent that it provides these kind

26:53

of political goals for me and of

26:55

really appreciate Russell more point that know

26:57

you actually need the Christ part of

26:59

this that the stories. Of the

27:01

Death and Resurrection of Christ is the only

27:03

way that you make sense of all these

27:05

other values and I think that's a better

27:07

way for us to approach this. Adding some

27:09

people are either thing. Yeah, let's embrace cultural

27:12

christianity because it's at least some kind of

27:14

christianity, so that's great. Let's go without hamlets,

27:16

pit this version against other faiths and be

27:18

like I would rather live in a christian

27:20

country than these other countries. or saying no

27:22

cultural christianity is really bad. You're either fully

27:24

a christian or let's reject all of that.

27:26

Instead, I think are in is to say.

27:30

Let's. Act like discover together we're These

27:32

values come from if you are acknowledging

27:34

with me like Dawkins as that they

27:36

don't come from nowhere that into pop

27:38

into people's minds are not universally held

27:40

are believed. Actually they do come for

27:42

them. Christian faith, But. Why? It's

27:44

not just that you pick and choose like,

27:47

okay, in Genesis, there's this picture of humans

27:49

made me much about that's really got. I

27:51

take that. No, actually, it's that by itself

27:53

doesn't lead to the kind of communal life

27:55

that were looking for, in part because the

27:58

death and Resurrection of Christ. He

28:00

just how we value not just individual

28:02

human lives but what we think is

28:04

necessary to create a common life. if

28:06

resurrection as possible and indeed is coming

28:08

crisis coming again and we will be

28:10

resurrected as well. We can treat human

28:12

made in the image of God differently

28:15

because it's not up to us to

28:17

create everything here and now in other

28:19

forms. Were there might be some influences

28:21

of Christianity in some sense, we still

28:23

have some kind of you know, Provisional.

28:26

Values of Christianity But we don't have the

28:28

whole story, it's It's still really easy to

28:30

say it's know my political project more important

28:33

than your life or value or dignity because

28:35

it's so much bigger and has such greater

28:37

consequences than what happens your individual life. Just

28:39

a doctrine of the image of God doesn't

28:42

get you'd fully out of that you meet

28:44

the death and resurrection of Christ. You need

28:46

the eschatological picture of Christ's return. So I

28:48

think our our way to respond all of

28:50

this is not to say culture Cassini good

28:53

or bad is to say we have a

28:55

new opportunity. An opportunity to go down the

28:57

rabbit trail with people of where did you

28:59

learn these ideas and can rediscover together? Where

29:01

they come from, they come from. It's really

29:04

beautiful story that isn't faxed. Also true.

29:07

Or not I. Sky. Okay,

29:11

First of all, I have to get

29:13

this off my chest like that or

29:15

Duggan.the I got no, I got snagged

29:17

when dark and said that he is

29:20

slightly horrified. How could

29:22

you be slightly horrify? That's like

29:24

the moderately extreme my a house

29:26

or a little bit serious. I

29:29

just that a noise or get him out.

29:31

Okay, sorry Brian that my home was mildly

29:34

destroyed by the to exactly yeah ordeal. And

29:36

I'm I'm I'm I'm a little bit pregnant

29:38

or whatever it's is that you see these

29:40

are not yet arms that you can Mari.

29:43

Yeah or is so more on women's terms?

29:45

We need more women's terms from you Sky

29:47

That's good one. I'm trying to think of

29:50

things that are honor off. You know they're

29:52

not. They're not on a on a dimmer.

29:55

That. Out of the of has he has not on

29:57

the Zimmer. I get. It. Correct. Side.

30:00

Not on a dimmer. Yeah. Or

30:02

it. So Now did the substance of what

30:04

he's saying. They're I'm obviously concurrent highly with

30:07

both with what Russell Moore said and what

30:09

Caitlin as saying that you you can't. Cut.

30:11

The branch you're sitting on and on. All

30:13

these virtues that we see in a society

30:16

that's been deeply embedded through Christian faith comes

30:18

from a belief in a real source. I

30:21

don't wanna say defend Dawkins. I just want to

30:23

understand him a little bit and I think. The.

30:25

Best I've been able to come up with. Is. That

30:28

he's viewing the benefits of christianity

30:30

a little bit like the way

30:32

you might argue. I'll.

30:34

I like a society in which children

30:37

believe in Santa Claus. And.

30:40

Obviously as a grown adult, I don't believe

30:42

in Santa Claus, but it's charm mean to

30:44

me that there are children love even songs.

30:46

I love the Trial of the Saw. I

30:48

love I love the fact that they wait

30:51

in line does sit on his lap at

30:53

the department store. I love the Tv shows,

30:55

all that but when they grow out of

30:57

it as they will with time and intelligence,

31:00

It's better for them to grow out of

31:02

it. but then they can have their own

31:04

children that they and in culture eight into

31:06

that stuff. The Ama I entered fun of

31:08

me how old use the gospel. We hope

31:10

we don't stop giving presents on that of

31:12

Van right soon as I write want to

31:14

lose? I don't want to leave the feel

31:16

even though I don't believe a yes any

31:19

of it's true rice. So I think what

31:21

Dawkins a Sane is in a very kind

31:23

of. Patronizing. Way is he

31:25

saying. I hope there's enough ignorant

31:27

people in society that still believe

31:29

in Jesus said we get the

31:31

benefits of Christianity, or for the

31:33

rest of us who are really

31:35

intelligent who move beyond such superstition

31:37

and mess. We don't need that,

31:40

but there's a segment that keeps

31:42

going and we're grateful for the

31:44

byproducts of bad. But we we

31:46

intelligent, scientifically minded, enlightened people. We

31:48

don't need the myths anymore, thank

31:50

you very much and. And.

31:53

That gets to the idea of will how to use

31:55

of from the effects of christianity and yet denial of

31:57

it's truth claims like he does and I think it's

31:59

a little. That like the Santa Claus? not. Even

32:02

even more so how yeah, if

32:04

if what's annoying him this week

32:07

is is that. The. U

32:09

K's officially recognizing Ramadan.

32:12

Hop. On What basis do you

32:14

say that doesn't belong here? If

32:18

you're not saying, won't see we have

32:20

a state church and state religion and

32:22

so you know we're Christian nation and

32:24

feet if you don't, if you yourself

32:26

don't ascribe to any of the tenets

32:29

of the faith and don't feel logically

32:31

that anyone else should. how do you

32:33

reject the tenets of someone elses face

32:35

on what basis? Other than that, we

32:37

should all be faceless. Except I want

32:40

the trappings of the one that we

32:42

used to have because I like the

32:44

Christmas cookies. But. His base

32:46

exactly. He likes to Christmas cookies. His

32:49

base is is he thinks the the

32:51

fruits of Christianity is better than the

32:53

fruit of Islam. He

32:55

and his unapologetic about that. I.

32:58

We talked about this actually on last week's

33:00

Sky Pod with with Judaic, the same story

33:03

and and. I'm

33:05

not a Brits. I'm not gonna sit here and

33:07

criticize the Uk. But. I

33:10

do find it ironic that thera there

33:12

on out there at underprivileged minority we

33:14

we can write necessity I do find

33:16

it ironic their Dawkins is sitting here.

33:19

you know at the pinnacle of British

33:21

society as as a as a professor

33:23

and world famous writer and scientists. Even.

33:26

Apartment empire that colonize the quarter of the

33:29

world. And now he's upset that some of

33:31

those colonize people's are coming back. To.

33:33

Great Britain there and bringing their cancer with

33:35

them And and it's a holds. The.

33:37

The fact of being a call. It a colonizer

33:39

and yeah, you're complaining about it. Came.

33:42

Over having a hard time not interrupting

33:45

you. I'm

33:47

trying to be nice and other

33:49

part of this is it's important

33:52

is. I think having read this

33:54

article and read a few other take on went

33:56

up and said. I do

33:58

think part of what challenging about trying to. Live in

34:00

a pluralistic society and claiming that you come

34:02

from nowhere which is what you kind of

34:04

have to do with you're going say, I'm

34:06

not coming from any tradition, I don't belong

34:08

to any. Say, I'm not. I'm just a

34:11

person who rational discerns all the things. I

34:13

believe. It is so hard to exist in

34:15

a pluralistic world if you come from nowhere

34:17

and no one and it's just you out

34:19

there in the world. And I do think

34:21

this is. Another, Again, I'm just

34:23

going to say this about multiple things. He

34:25

said that this is an opportunity for us

34:27

to to freshly articulate one of the guess

34:30

of Christianity that we have forgotten or haven't

34:32

practiced well, one of them being that we

34:34

actually can have better resources for engaging a

34:36

pluralistic world. We haven't always done this absolutely,

34:38

but we could because we can say really

34:41

strongly. I do come from a certain place.

34:43

I. Come out of this tradition, I was taught

34:45

these things in my church as a child

34:47

or as an adult. This is where I'm

34:49

coming from and there's almost a greater security

34:52

there. Because. I'm coming from a

34:54

stable community that isn't threatened by other communities.

34:56

I then because I can say I come

34:58

from their can interact with someone like Dawkins.

35:00

This is doing interacting with people from other

35:02

parts of the world, other religious traditions and

35:05

not like our conversation threatens my identity to

35:07

they know where I come from. I come

35:09

from these people and we believe these things

35:11

and I can learn. From you and I ask questions

35:13

from you I can. Bring the gift of my tradition, You can

35:15

bring the gift of you are but if we just exist

35:17

as. Isolated. Individuals like with

35:19

our own made of ideas about the world

35:22

than every conversation I have with someone threatens

35:24

my identity because we're always figuring out how

35:26

much do I agree with you and how

35:28

much as instead of this out the relative

35:30

safety of acts lives I've soon as in

35:32

my own city and some interface conversations and

35:34

some community organizing conversations were because we all

35:36

com as churches the Skinny or getting Group

35:38

requires you come through a church or another

35:40

mean organization. There's a little bit more freedom

35:42

to disagree and talk through why we disagree

35:44

because everyone knows where they come from like

35:47

you're coming from the conservative church. I I

35:49

can kind of know why. You believe the

35:51

things you believe and what you believe. You're

35:53

coming from the synagogue or this mosque or

35:55

this and secular comey organization. I have some

35:57

sense of where you're coming from and what

35:59

commitments you bring. If you and I think

36:01

too often a darkened ask way of engaging

36:03

with the world that many Americans believe as

36:05

well and many christian american slave as well

36:08

is I leave my commitment of the door.

36:10

I enter into the public square as an

36:12

individual with my own individual beliefs and that

36:14

makes it really scary to encountered difference. It's

36:17

a little easier to encounter difference if you

36:19

know where you come from and your i

36:21

know. Where. Other people come from

36:23

her. Okay, that's interesting point.

36:27

Do you know. That. There

36:29

was a country song inspired by

36:31

Now the Holy Post. To.

36:33

Do lasted, You know us? Just.

36:36

You The answer is. No.

36:38

Can a Dusty? you know who? Dusty

36:40

Davies's you know who does diseases with

36:42

with many and them on the show

36:45

Dusty D Vs American politician and Pastor

36:47

who has served as a member of

36:49

the Oklahoma Senate since December. Twenty Twenty

36:51

three. He's remember the remember the Republican

36:54

party. He is also a Christian nationalist

36:56

who helped write the statement on Christian

36:58

nationalism. One of the

37:00

ones that was trying to officially

37:02

formalize Christian nationalism while he was

37:05

running for Oklahoma Senate. and he's

37:07

been. Introducing all

37:09

sorts of bills that

37:11

are making pinpoint trick

37:14

is secretly Oklahoma said

37:16

it's he's an abortion

37:18

evolutionist. Me he has

37:20

a very strong position

37:22

of among abolitionists. abortion

37:24

abolitionists said our absolutist

37:26

absolution right. I absolve

37:28

you of your abolitionism.

37:30

I'm sorry everyone I

37:33

apologize and going fast.

37:36

He also proposed a bill

37:38

to. Legalize pornography in the

37:40

state of Oklahoma. So he's He's

37:42

basically saying. Work.

37:45

Pm. Caitlin. Wow, that's just that's wild.

37:47

I didn't know that been. Yeah yeah he

37:49

he had like eight bills that he wanted

37:51

to introduce right away that are driving his

37:54

colleagues crazy because there are they all. Sort.

37:56

Of crotch christianity centric.

37:59

Ah, I'm a little bit like

38:01

the I would want another one was

38:03

is taking away no fault divorce. So.

38:06

It's like the whole under viewing the

38:08

sixties. Undoing the sixties

38:10

to make Oklahoma more

38:13

explicitly christian. So. We mention

38:15

I'm on the show a few months

38:17

ago and I said just off the

38:19

cuff Dusty Beavers sounds like the name

38:21

of a country singer. Turns

38:24

out Dusty Diverse plays the

38:26

guitar. So. He

38:29

wrote a country song in response

38:31

to me saying his name sounded

38:33

like a country. Singer.

38:36

And senate. Posted. It on

38:39

Twitter and people set it to

38:41

me and it's basically what this

38:43

is what Dad Richard Dawkins is

38:46

saying. But there's a there's a

38:48

slogan that's been traveling around in

38:50

far right Christian nationals circles that

38:52

Krista nationalism is good or than

38:55

trans and kids. So.

38:57

Them kind of us a

38:59

bumper sticker slogan, so he

39:01

turned that into a country

39:03

song inspired by us. Mentioning

39:05

him isn't that far, Is

39:07

it a photo Arabs. So

39:09

the be christened Nationalists view

39:12

is. What? We have

39:14

right now is a religious

39:16

worldview. It's pluralism. It's secular

39:18

pluralism. and what it gives

39:21

us is the transitioning of

39:23

kids. I'm. Chris. Nationalism

39:25

is preferable to be be

39:27

supposed neutrality that we have

39:30

right now that is really

39:32

promoting all sorts of dangerous

39:34

gender ideologies. Same thing Richard

39:36

Dawkins is saying is that

39:38

Christian Nationalism abreast actively. he's

39:40

promoting Krista Nationalism but just

39:43

at a at a. Superficial.

39:46

Sense. That. We're a christian nation.

39:49

And and we should be a Christian nation.

39:51

Disney Cruise, nationalism, Caitlin, Know,

39:53

I think I don't. I think Richard Dawkins his

39:55

throat and Kristen S. is. Because

39:57

I think we're married, we are not.

40:00

Good at articulating what Christian national them as in

40:02

our own context, to let alone in a. Browser.

40:04

Text nobody again. I. Don't

40:06

think that the quite the same thing anyway. I

40:09

think Dusty Beavers agrees with

40:11

Richard Dawkins. but Richard

40:13

Dawkins thinks the secular thing

40:16

that smells like Christianity is

40:18

better than Islamic culture.

40:20

and Dusty Beavers says the

40:23

secular thing is actually terrible

40:25

and it must be overcome

40:28

by real, very strong

40:30

biblical Christianity in the legislature.

40:33

Yes no interesting how anybody want

40:36

out that I will I think.

40:38

The here's what's. Here's

40:40

why things in same on this is whether

40:42

it's at Us To Leavers or Richard Dawkins,

40:44

they're actually. Coming up with

40:47

of a and new spin on what

40:49

has been a very very very old

40:51

heresy and that is is a little

40:54

bit was what Russell more gets into

40:56

in his peace but like. Christians.

40:59

Of doing this already. There. Are

41:01

so many spicy evangelicalism? There's so

41:03

much of a journalism that says

41:06

we're not really that interested in

41:08

jesus. Were. Interested in is what

41:10

we think we can get from him. Within

41:12

we can a better marriages. We think we

41:14

can raise better kids, We think we can

41:16

have better communities, We think we can get

41:19

better jobs and cars and health and wealth

41:21

and die. It's and all these other things.

41:23

and so much of American of Angelicas amuses

41:25

the suppose it benefits of following Jesus in

41:27

place of actually following Jesus. One of the

41:29

most classic example this I said this on

41:31

the sky pod is even the popular way

41:34

we share the gospel. If you would rather

41:36

go to heaven when you die and avoid

41:38

helm than put your trust in Jesus, even

41:40

that formulation is not really interested. In. Jesus is

41:42

only interested in using him instrumentally to

41:44

get to heaven, and so all of

41:46

that stuff is no different than saying

41:49

I just want to use Jesus to

41:51

make my country better. Or I just

41:53

want to use Jesus to hang on

41:55

to some of the cultural values that

41:57

make my. Community. Recognizable

41:59

to me, Which is what Dawkins

42:01

the same, but none of it is

42:03

interested in Jesus so they'll pick your

42:05

poison. It. I don't care what

42:07

you want to be shot, or poisoned, or

42:09

stabbed or hung, it's all gonna kill you

42:11

because it's not. Ultimately, Jesus. Okay,

42:14

so are we happy about Richard

42:16

Dawkins saying let's not get rid

42:18

of the Christmas cookies. I

42:25

think I've ice ice and authority by.

42:27

I do think we should view this

42:29

as an opportunity to articulate the guess

42:31

that Christianity does offer. But.

42:33

No further than that and say where

42:36

did a conference and because. Not

42:39

only are people looking for an ethic that

42:41

helps us live a healthier public life which

42:43

I think he is in have mistaken kind

42:45

of confused way trying to get at which

42:48

is I want to live in a community

42:50

where these values are valued. Do I think

42:52

that recognizing Ramadan and does that south absolutely

42:54

not. But I think was trying to articulate

42:56

if I'm being a suitable possible is there

42:58

are values Christianity has given my community and

43:01

I don't wanna lose them know I say

43:03

amen to that. But

43:05

we have to. Wonder how they

43:07

came to be so prevalent and we're

43:09

They come from in the story of

43:11

scripture in the gospel that Christianity proclaims

43:14

and I think that's an important not

43:16

just to size point that we are

43:18

telling people the true gospel and were

43:20

thing like you actually you need to

43:23

actually democracy and he is not just

43:25

things that Christianity gets you that's really

43:27

important. But also because if we're

43:29

not clear about the stories, we will

43:32

pick and choose what parts of the

43:34

value and ethic we. Keep and what

43:36

parts we discard. And if you

43:38

really believe the whole story, it not

43:40

only gives you some really great gifts

43:42

the dark and seem to recognize, but

43:44

it gives you some other gifts that

43:46

you won't necessarily get outside of the

43:48

Christian store. You might get some general

43:50

dignity of humans from other religious traditions

43:52

or from secular thinkers, but there are

43:54

some really uncomfortable guess of the Christian

43:56

tradition. Things like we actually sacrifice on

43:59

behalf of the poor and the vulnerable,

44:01

the people that in many of our

44:03

society's we would much more willingly trample

44:05

over for our own success and wealth

44:07

and comfort. We I think the whole

44:09

thing and only way any of that

44:11

makes sense is the death and Resurrection

44:13

of Christ. You might get some image

44:15

of God value of humans. Why on

44:17

earth would you sacrifice the things you

44:19

have for someone else who doesn't seem

44:21

to be contributing much to society? Unless

44:23

you believe that Jesus Christ really lived

44:25

a perfect life, died on across, resurrected,

44:27

and you will be resurrected and live

44:29

in redeemed. Creation Imperfect relationship with other humans

44:31

and creation and for ever but the only

44:33

story that make sense of why we would

44:35

do some of the things that Christians have

44:38

done throughout history of sacrificing greatly of risking

44:40

their lives of giving their lives on behalf

44:42

of not just an abstract gospel that human

44:44

beings and their belief that the death and

44:46

Resurrection of Christ meant they could do things

44:48

that they would otherwise would otherwise make no

44:50

sense in the world we live in and

44:52

will miss out on those gifts of the

44:54

church if we don't at least ones that

44:56

can be identified by people who aren't Kristen.

44:59

At I think the Blind Spot The Cubans

45:01

or titillating They're both for dusty leavers and

45:03

for Richard Dawkins is that in order to

45:05

have the kind of society the Dawkins apparently

45:08

rallies or even a Christian national is kind

45:10

of. And. A utopia that

45:12

does viewers may want. You ultimately

45:14

need a critical mass of citizens

45:17

in your country or community that

45:19

genuinely believe. The. Gospel.

45:21

And that means you have

45:23

to actually persuade. A critical

45:25

mass of people. In. In the

45:27

beauty and goodness and and. Reality.

45:30

Of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Dawkins

45:32

doesn't want want that. He doesn't want

45:34

to actually convince people that the Gospels

45:36

true and a lot of Krishna nationalists

45:38

have given up on the. The.

45:40

Mission of persuasion and winning people to

45:43

the beauty of the gospel in favor

45:45

of just forcing it upon them through

45:47

legislation and passing laws that they may

45:49

or may not agree with. So and

45:52

all of this you actually need genuine

45:54

Christians. Who. Believe the story or

45:56

and live it out to a critical mass

45:58

to make the society reflective. These are the

46:00

kingdom of God that everyone apparently seems. You've suddenly

46:03

realize they're good. Yeah.

46:05

Yeah, okay. I

46:07

think we solved it. Thank. You

46:09

everyone, We solved that. We also

46:11

wanted to mention that we're not

46:13

unaware of what's going on in

46:15

the Middle East right now over

46:18

the weekend between Iran and Israel.

46:20

None of us are geopolitical experts,

46:22

so we're not going to try

46:24

to decipher what's going on other

46:26

than to say that we're aware

46:29

of it and and we hope

46:31

are all praying for the peace

46:33

to the Middle East and that

46:35

cooler heads will prevail and that

46:37

we don't get caught. Up in June

46:39

jingoism, murder or in of the remember that

46:42

there are people made in the image of

46:44

God on every side in that we need

46:46

to pray. All. Of them

46:48

to either of you guys have thoughts

46:50

about what's going on. And

46:54

Caitlin. Okay, I'm

46:56

hi. ah I'll just ago when he said

46:58

sandwiches. I think a lot of us are

47:01

probably. Hearing. A lot about

47:03

this Am. It's easy with internet and

47:05

smartphones to get constant updates on things

47:07

that you have little ability to control

47:09

and and very far away from you

47:11

and. Be. Anxious about

47:13

them and it is good to take

47:15

this seriously and to be concerned. I'm.

47:18

Exactly because of what you say on behalf

47:20

of human beings made in God's image that

47:23

are being harmed Am. But. I

47:25

think the best that we can council

47:27

is not yours that position to have

47:29

on this conflict. Or here's an idea

47:31

for what the President of the United

47:33

States to do Or that to say.

47:35

We really do believe as we've just

47:37

been sending Aussie met talking about the

47:39

the death and Resurrection of Christ changes

47:41

everything and that our hope is in

47:43

his return and the redemption restoration of

47:46

all things. and if we really are

47:48

firmly rooted in that. It

47:50

does mean that prayer actually matters.

47:52

It does mean that our continued

47:54

hope in the face as as

47:57

fear and suffering. Really matters and matters

47:59

or christian that are much more intimately

48:01

affected by this than we are. but

48:03

it matters for us to to maintain

48:05

a rated nest in that hope and

48:07

truce and then from that place fall

48:09

to are nice and and pray for

48:11

God to intervene Where it seems humans.

48:14

Cannot. Yet. So

48:16

we pray for the people of Gaza. We pray

48:18

for the people of Israel. We pray for the

48:20

people of Iran. They're all. To. A certain

48:23

extent along for the ride of what

48:25

their leaders are doing. Without.

48:27

Your none of those people have

48:30

the ability to just change the

48:32

course of what's happening right now.

48:34

I'm and so that's all we

48:36

can do is is pray and

48:38

hopefully God and and wise men

48:40

and women can know can inspire

48:42

peace in those situations. Sky, you

48:45

want to wrap this up and

48:47

send us home. An

48:49

hour. I think that was the best way.

48:51

They're just. that's why we're committed in scripture,

48:53

prefer leaders and pray for peace and he

48:56

awaited. No one wants to see this expand

48:58

to a wider conflict in which countless innocent

49:00

people will be caught in the crossfire. So

49:02

I hope all the Holy Posers will join

49:04

us and praying for over sisters and brothers

49:07

and everyone else in that region. Yep!

49:09

Yep yep take a when. You.

49:12

Have a new episode of your podcast coming out this

49:14

week! Yeah, when you're

49:16

listening to this, it will have come

49:18

out yesterday and oh my god you

49:20

haven't seen it yet. It's such a

49:22

man question. This week we talk about

49:24

what a kid it might your to

49:26

ask me recently, which is why do

49:28

humans not have superpowers? I would like

49:30

to fly. Wow.

49:34

Sales for years. The thing you saints

49:36

it oh man if a kid anthony's

49:38

glass me that I would like how

49:40

ridiculous. I had an incredible conversation with

49:42

a brilliant theologian Chris Mcclelland about that

49:44

and she had all these like really

49:46

deep important thing for us to learn

49:48

together about finite dependent human creatures. She

49:51

has wire he interesting things to say

49:53

about will we have Superpowers an eternity

49:55

million a great conversation and I think

49:57

it's a good lesson that when the

49:59

kid asks. The questions. And a school that

50:01

years they are. That's ridiculous question. Maybe don't

50:03

do that, roll your eyes are scars. Maybe

50:05

get into it with them. It's. right? Yeah.

50:08

Wow. Okay so all of you

50:10

who helped us launch Thailands podcast

50:12

curiously Caitlin last week we hit.

50:14

Wow! how high did we get?

50:16

Like number six on me Apple

50:18

podcast men like to below Joe

50:20

Rogan or something like that. It

50:22

was crazy. Your guys and number

50:24

one of job. Number. One

50:26

on the religion. Section. Yeah, yeah,

50:29

we beat the cute priest who reads

50:31

the bible every day. We've never gotten

50:33

a podcast higher than the cute. Free

50:35

to read the bible every day. That

50:37

was amazing You guys! so I could

50:39

spread the word about Taylor's podcast and

50:41

I come back next week and we

50:43

will talk to you then! Thanks by.

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to sleep Matter. into

52:55

these interview might guess Curtis trying

52:57

says spiritual formation of horrors of

52:59

them. In. Other words: if

53:02

the church and it's leaders ignore

53:04

an area of spiritual formations, something

53:06

or someone will form that part

53:08

of our lives. Instead, he says

53:10

that's exactly what happened with politics

53:12

for many reasons. Average a local

53:14

leaders have avoided talking about politics

53:16

and the church, and as a

53:18

result, many evangelicalism had their minds

53:20

and spirits malformed my political media,

53:22

some even to the extent of

53:24

idolatry having their identities primarily defined

53:26

by their allegiance to one political

53:28

party or the other. In response

53:30

to all of this malformation, Chain

53:32

along with David French and Russell More

53:34

have developed a free small group curriculum

53:37

called the After Party. As you'll hear,

53:39

the goal of the curriculum isn't to

53:41

help Christians determine what they think about

53:44

politics. It's not about issues or candidates.

53:46

are parties? What about how they should

53:48

think about engage in politics. How do

53:51

we carry the values of God's kingdom,

53:53

especially humility and hope into the public

53:55

square grid? A Chain is the founding

53:58

Executive director of Redeeming Babbel. He's

54:00

in a host of the Good

54:02

Faith Podcast and the author of

54:04

the Anxiety Opportunity how worships the

54:06

doorway to your best self. Here

54:08

is my conversation with Curtis: Checks.

54:17

Criticizing. Welcome to the Holy Post was

54:20

great to be here. Have been a fan

54:22

of your work. We as good faith sort

54:24

of think of ourselves as the little sibling

54:26

to you to you guys as the older

54:29

sibling here so out an honor to be

54:31

are brought into the circle. I more more

54:33

like what fraternal twins or something I were

54:36

know as a were just older we've been

54:38

around longer but admire your were free much

54:40

as well. Where decide what the after party

54:42

which is this new relatively new curriculum that

54:45

you put together with our friends David French

54:47

and Russell. Moore and many others. Let's begin

54:49

with the backstory on this whole thing before

54:51

we get into exactly what it is and

54:54

what you hope to accomplish with it. How

54:56

did the idea for this. Emerge.

54:59

It really began of friendship. I was

55:01

friends with David for over twenty five

55:03

years, were part of a fantasy baseball

55:05

league that spans all the way back

55:07

to his days and Harvard law School.

55:09

And so we've been friends. We worked

55:12

together on suffered in various projects and

55:14

both of us and word. Post.

55:16

About three years ago. realizing.

55:19

How much the church or has

55:21

been paralyzed has been divided by

55:24

politics, arm and that we? They

55:26

haven't had a really good play

55:28

to run in searches and you

55:30

know when you look back to

55:32

Twenty sixteen and.when Trump came down

55:35

the elevator I don't think any

55:37

of us saw and for saw

55:39

the damage that political polarization would

55:41

do to the charts. We were

55:43

all caught off guard and Twenty

55:46

six team in twenty twenty. We.

55:48

Had no excuse. We know we

55:50

knew what was going to happen with

55:52

the next election and yet if you

55:55

look around, there was really very little

55:57

resourcing done to local churches pastors

55:59

coming. These and how to handle

56:01

political polarization that most. Pastors,

56:04

Were left to fend for it by

56:06

themselves and and we realize that the

56:08

how much that play of just silence

56:10

and trying to hope you can make

56:12

it where it your way through it

56:14

hasn't worked and we can talk about

56:16

why that doesn't work. But our realization

56:18

was what we can't let that happen

56:21

again And twenty twenty four that would

56:23

just. Be as an utter failure. Okay,

56:25

so let me back up a little bags. I'm

56:27

sure his own of you guys have these conversations

56:29

three years ago at the time where this was

56:31

all been incubated. But when when you looked at

56:34

the church weather and twenty twenty or and twenty

56:36

sixteen realize as use put it, passers had no

56:38

play. They. Didn't have anything to

56:40

run. Did you ask why? Like.

56:43

Obviously, over the decades, the

56:45

Evans cultures, especially in America,

56:47

has created mountains of resources

56:49

for marriage for parents, seen

56:51

even vocation for all kinds

56:53

of other areas of formation

56:55

and disciple ship. What's your

56:57

explanation for why we have

56:59

not created resources for Disciple

57:02

Super? I'm Public Engagement or.

57:04

Political. Theology or just citizenship? Why

57:06

is that such of a black

57:08

hole in our disciples? So. That's

57:11

a great question for small. To be clear, it's

57:13

not that we haven't created any. I mean, if

57:15

you know we can point to people like Lawson's

57:17

forearm and other partners that we found him tried.

57:20

But I think that I think

57:22

there's two big reasons why there

57:24

was a overall on rather sort

57:26

of gaping hole on the first

57:28

is because of that our own

57:30

internal divisions, the fact that you

57:32

know large bodies that our national

57:34

bodies that you would expect to

57:36

be the ones to produce these

57:38

results are for these these resources

57:40

are themselves. Have these very divisions within

57:43

their own bodies. was very hard for

57:45

that. They have to work out a

57:47

lot of internal tensions first before they

57:49

can actually mount a voice, and then

57:52

the second I think is a is

57:54

that the resources that has been produced

57:56

have tended. again. there are exceptions to,

57:58

but have tended to. Define politics

58:00

in the most standard way that we've

58:02

come to allow politics to be defined.

58:05

which is the what a politics it's

58:07

about. How do we think about the

58:09

issues and how do we think about

58:11

how to vote? That it's subjective. Things

58:14

like how do you decide between the

58:16

what of party policies. Are. A

58:18

particular candidate and so forth and we have

58:20

missed that. Politics is as much if not

58:22

more about the how how do we relate

58:24

to one or the how do we hold

58:26

differences, how do we hold our own beliefs

58:29

and so forth. So I think the time

58:31

is ripe for making this shift from the

58:33

what of politics, the how and that's been

58:35

I think is is that was one of

58:37

the gaping holes with have to fill. A

58:40

I don't know I'm may I go back

58:42

to my own language or much for I

58:44

would call it a gaping hole because the

58:47

reality is people have been shaped in their

58:49

in their political theology they have been formed

58:51

in in their disciple ship on on public

58:53

matters but it's just not happening in most.

58:55

Local. Churches in Attend Missouri happening

58:58

from their passers. It's coming through

59:00

social media algorithms, cable news consumption,

59:02

other places, many of whom invoke

59:04

the name of God or. Jesus.

59:07

Or the Bible in advocating for certain

59:09

points of view. Which then I think

59:11

we were all surprised into a sixteen

59:13

or twenty twenty one that came flooding

59:15

into the church. Before

59:18

we get into the content of your

59:20

curriculum and the after party. What

59:23

do you think it's gonna take

59:25

for church leaders are pastors to

59:27

embrace? A curriculum

59:29

like this when for in some cases

59:31

decades they have been kind of form

59:33

to just stay away from anything that

59:36

isn't any way political. Yes

59:38

for so I would buy were just

59:40

agree with your previous comment when I

59:42

say gaping hole I'm talking about gave

59:44

me their within the evangelical screw national

59:46

establishment if you are right right national

59:48

resource ecosystems and I think what they

59:50

what is going to involve them at

59:53

local passers at least will be willing

59:55

to check out something like that hard

59:57

it is exactly recognizing that point which

59:59

is that. Here's your formation of whores

1:00:01

A vacuum right? We don't form are

1:00:03

people somebody else already will be doing

1:00:05

that work and it. and I don't

1:00:07

know how many pastors I have spoken

1:00:09

to in than Russell and Dave. We

1:00:12

hear this all the time a com

1:00:14

and to the variation of Fox News

1:00:16

or Now and M S N B

1:00:18

a me see how different any I

1:00:20

would see whatever political channel but listen

1:00:22

to take Fox News for now. Fox

1:00:24

News has them for twenty five hours

1:00:26

a week. I have them for one

1:00:28

and a half. And you're

1:00:30

lucky that if you're like and if

1:00:33

you're lucky exactly like of your exams

1:00:35

that's in the you know if somebody

1:00:37

was basically going to church. And so

1:00:39

we have to realize that spiritual formation

1:00:41

abhors a vacuum saw people are getting

1:00:44

warm, you're just not getting form by

1:00:46

Jesus. And so our job as Shepherds

1:00:48

of Our Flag is to actually. Shape.

1:00:51

Our people, as it is different people and all

1:00:53

things in all parts of their lives, especially the

1:00:55

part of the lives that are d for. Individuals

1:00:58

and d forming the church and politics

1:01:00

is right up there right now as

1:01:02

probably the number one to defamation all

1:01:05

a force right now. so that brings

1:01:07

up the question or eight one one.

1:01:10

Problem. You're trying to solve his. Passers.

1:01:12

And churches haven't had good resources in this

1:01:15

area or a while now they do. Here's

1:01:17

the after party: an excellent resource, but the

1:01:19

second piece of the. even if you have

1:01:21

a great resource, if you have the means

1:01:24

you. Do. You have in Dallas Willard

1:01:26

language, the vision and the intention yeah to

1:01:28

utilize those means are what are the barriers

1:01:30

you think to to those pieces of it

1:01:33

to the vision And you know you mention

1:01:35

that passers recognize coming to see that. Spears

1:01:39

or Formation of Whores A vacuum. but there's

1:01:41

gonna be a risk involved. Insane. Hey church.

1:01:43

I think we should use the after party

1:01:45

and and study this in our home

1:01:47

groups or classes or whatever because City Boy

1:01:50

just not interested in having their idols exposed

1:01:52

or a hit. So what else you think

1:01:54

it's It's a purchase leaders to. Accept.

1:01:57

This resource and utilize it for it's

1:01:59

buttons. Will. I be

1:02:01

One thing is to accept that there

1:02:04

is no magic bullet that will solve

1:02:06

this immediately and once and for all

1:02:08

that the for spurs information slow it

1:02:10

takes a process and that also is

1:02:13

take some wisdom on what is the

1:02:15

best context. For. That formation to

1:02:17

happen. I'm a former senior pastor of an

1:02:19

Evangelical Covenant shirt so obscure know if this

1:02:21

is true for you but when I was

1:02:24

at least when I was a senior pastor,

1:02:26

I spent. Maybe. Seventy five

1:02:28

percent of my time working on the

1:02:30

Sunday sermon and all of the accoutrements

1:02:32

around have to sit around that service

1:02:35

rights. The facilities are planning the slides,

1:02:37

everything. And that's true in most churches.

1:02:39

Yeah, true for most pastors. And

1:02:41

so it's very tempting for passer

1:02:43

than to think, oh, if I

1:02:46

finally have to like Jin of

1:02:48

my energy and courage and whatever

1:02:50

comes to deal with politics, just

1:02:52

going to be in the Sunday

1:02:54

morning services like that's my Big

1:02:56

Hammer, Know my imitation. To.

1:02:58

Pastors and church leaders is to actually.

1:03:00

That do that are generally speaking that

1:03:02

I don't think it's a Sunday morning.

1:03:05

Service is a ideal setting for spirit

1:03:07

of permission, our politics and least as

1:03:09

your first play. That's you run because

1:03:11

it's one too many. Communication is if

1:03:13

you haven't been talking of us before

1:03:16

he will come as a shock and

1:03:18

will raise suspicions. I'm people, if you've

1:03:20

got a purple congregation most likely you're

1:03:22

going to say something that was a

1:03:24

real say, Multiple things that will irritate

1:03:27

both sides of for all across the

1:03:29

spectrum. and your Monday morning inbox. Is

1:03:31

going to be ugly so we

1:03:33

don't mind. Kurds with his stats

1:03:35

don't don't take it. You know

1:03:37

from that serve big of contacts

1:03:39

right there. Start small and by

1:03:41

small I mean small groups. Start

1:03:43

in your smart and that's why

1:03:46

we design the after party curriculum

1:03:48

to be a small group curriculum.

1:03:50

Know my elevator pitch for the

1:03:52

after party is what Alpha did

1:03:54

for Evangelism. The. After party wants to

1:03:56

do for politics or what they're what was the beauty

1:03:58

of Alpha. For those who know. The Alpha

1:04:00

curriculum is is a trusted curriculum

1:04:02

that is inserted into small groups

1:04:05

and because it's a small Gibson

1:04:07

embodied community faced faced conversation not

1:04:09

on social media and also not

1:04:11

one too many and eight nights

1:04:14

Sunday morning service you can actually

1:04:16

talk but the content. Of

1:04:18

the after party structures, the composition just

1:04:20

like the Alpha does to channel it

1:04:23

in helpful ways and so start their

1:04:25

start. Small start with once Margaret start

1:04:27

with a couple small groups. It doesn't

1:04:29

have to be a big campaign but

1:04:31

starts planting more healthy seats. Yeah,

1:04:34

okay, let's go back to the you

1:04:36

mentioned earlier. the desire to shift from

1:04:38

the question of what to how in

1:04:40

politics. Describe.

1:04:43

What that looks like for the after

1:04:45

party for them and arena where. Bring

1:04:47

this up as because if people search

1:04:49

for the after party online or in

1:04:51

social media wherever they're going to find

1:04:53

some Pick Some critics who are trying

1:04:55

to say that this curriculum is trying

1:04:57

to get you not to vote for

1:04:59

Donald Trump which is really a what

1:05:01

question right? What I: what should I

1:05:03

do with my vote? Yeah that's not

1:05:05

what this curriculum is about Sarah said

1:05:07

to answer those online social media troll

1:05:09

else ah described this shift from what

1:05:11

to how and why. It shouldn't be

1:05:14

polarizing. For. Churches that engages. Yes,

1:05:16

because he is nowhere in the

1:05:18

curriculum in the Sixers successions about

1:05:20

an hour, hour and a half

1:05:22

of experience, but maybe twenty minutes

1:05:24

of video Egypt because the Russell's

1:05:26

small group conversations are individual reflections

1:05:28

so it I encourage people to

1:05:30

check out for themselves. Watch the

1:05:33

videos, you know you can skip

1:05:35

skip the exercises, just watched the

1:05:37

videos twenty minutes per per session.

1:05:39

In. Know where would you find? David

1:05:42

Russell or myself? Advocating.

1:05:44

For them to vote for any was

1:05:46

for what can what to do with

1:05:48

their votes, Any candidate, any party and

1:05:51

he policy it's not about that's our

1:05:53

it is about the how it is

1:05:55

about how do we become people in

1:05:57

politics characterized by hope and humility. Those.

1:06:00

The twin virtue that we

1:06:02

believe that Jesus cultivated in

1:06:04

his disciples, especially around politics

1:06:06

and especially in Jesus' day.

1:06:08

an era of incredible. Political.

1:06:11

Polarization. First century Israel that he called

1:06:13

his disciples to hope and humility and

1:06:16

and. You can have. Hope

1:06:18

and Humility. Or be low in Hope

1:06:20

in Humility. Whether you're a Democrat or

1:06:22

Republican, Progressive or conservative, it's not a

1:06:25

what division is a how how are

1:06:27

you approaching these issues And that's actually

1:06:29

what Jesus was so much more clear

1:06:31

about, right? If you look on the

1:06:33

Sermon on the Mount, I challenge people

1:06:35

to draw a straight, uncontested line from

1:06:38

the Sermon on the Mound to a

1:06:40

specific policy on the border or on

1:06:42

Israel, Gaza, or on your budget policy.

1:06:44

you can try and I and it's

1:06:46

it's were it's appropriate to try. But

1:06:49

it's gonna be a fuzzy and contestant line.

1:06:51

Other people will draw differently and they will

1:06:53

have good arguments on their side. But.

1:06:55

Read the seminal them out. You

1:06:57

don't. Do not lie, Do not

1:06:59

be angry, Do not add a

1:07:01

cast. Aspersions.spread lies, Do not kept,

1:07:04

Get caught. It's and scandal. Especially

1:07:06

sexual scandal. These are specific teachings

1:07:08

on the sermon about that You

1:07:10

can draw a straight line to

1:07:12

political behavior. Our and that's that's

1:07:14

clear, that uncontested than that applies

1:07:16

to everybody left or right. And

1:07:18

so we're trying to call people

1:07:20

Say that the clear message less

1:07:22

center ourselves and our communities around

1:07:25

a clear. Jesus how. versus.

1:07:27

What? What's been happening a lot in Christian

1:07:29

circles where we're sacrificing the how in order

1:07:31

to try to win on the what? which

1:07:34

is where where everything's more fuzzy into dust.

1:07:36

It. So when

1:07:38

of the scene we talked about the

1:07:40

salon and recent episodes of the Holy

1:07:42

Posts? Just the reality of living in

1:07:44

a very diverse society and diverse in

1:07:46

every regard, religiously ethnically, culturally, our values.

1:07:49

All that. There's a lot of disagreement

1:07:51

in our society. the byproduct of that.

1:07:54

Is. It raises anxiety levels. It

1:07:56

it's stressful. It's challenging. Take a

1:07:58

lot of discernment and. Energy

1:08:00

to navigate through the world

1:08:02

today and one of the

1:08:04

antidote. Said. That anxiety is

1:08:06

certainty. It just feels nice

1:08:09

to to put things back in really

1:08:11

clear packages that these things are good.

1:08:13

These things are bad. These people are

1:08:16

good. These people are bad. This party

1:08:18

is good. This party is bad and

1:08:20

I think one of the. The.

1:08:22

Challenges you have with this curriculum. Is.

1:08:25

People are gonna walk away. With.

1:08:27

The what been answered with the clear here's

1:08:30

right here is wrong here. As good as

1:08:32

Bass and frankly there's a large segments messy

1:08:34

of the average uncle church in America that

1:08:36

just. Doesn't. Tolerate nuance and

1:08:38

complexity. So what do you say

1:08:40

to those people who are exhausted and

1:08:42

just like. Curtis I

1:08:44

do. I don't want my politics to be complicated.

1:08:47

I don't want to have to think about every

1:08:49

last bit of this. I just want to know

1:08:51

who to vote for and who the bad guys

1:08:53

are. You. Will for

1:08:55

swatting. It's a great inside sky that

1:08:57

are anxiety is at the is the

1:08:59

emotional engine of our political polarization this

1:09:01

day which is why I actually wrote

1:09:04

before I wrote the After Party. So

1:09:06

the After Party is a course, but

1:09:08

it's also a book now that's coming

1:09:10

out in two weeks. Guy thorough with

1:09:12

Nancy France but before I wrote the

1:09:14

After Party last year I wrote a

1:09:16

book called the Anxiety Opportunity and that

1:09:18

was very deliberate because I don't think

1:09:20

you can actually address politics precisely with

1:09:22

unless you actually have. A

1:09:25

way to address the anxiety That's

1:09:27

nuts and plate. Yeah, I don't

1:09:29

think you can understand politics without

1:09:31

understanding the that the emotional engine

1:09:33

for the political polarization, his anxiety.

1:09:35

And it is precisely like you

1:09:37

said it's it is a search

1:09:39

for false certainty and so actually

1:09:41

a lot of our call to

1:09:43

humility in terms of our twin

1:09:46

valleys. I'm hoping humility is to

1:09:48

recognize that. The

1:09:50

humidity requires the ability to

1:09:52

hold uncertainty in ourselves and.

1:09:54

Also in the World and that actually

1:09:56

is a said spiritual formation of call

1:09:58

That's A That's a. The bible sub

1:10:00

issue and so yes we we tackle

1:10:02

that had a we don't tackle people

1:10:05

that's it we don't know tackle had

1:10:07

on any of the what issues but

1:10:09

we tackle had odds the how issue

1:10:11

of the search and desire or and

1:10:13

claim. For. Certain T for

1:10:15

our prolong political views and

1:10:17

this actually gets to sky

1:10:19

the title. Of. Our curriculum

1:10:22

are called the After Party because

1:10:24

we are ultimately calling people to

1:10:26

say that politics is a false

1:10:28

certainty. It's a false drug for

1:10:30

anxiety that that's a one. What's

1:10:32

happening, right is that we were

1:10:34

reaching for politics. It's the Xanax

1:10:37

for anxiety. Ah, as it it

1:10:39

should have the short burst of

1:10:41

certainty. and and in a sense

1:10:43

of security isn't it goes away

1:10:45

because they can't actually deliver on

1:10:47

that certainty. That and just turned

1:10:49

the news page. And. You'll see that

1:10:52

that it doesn't doesn't work. And

1:10:54

this is why we're calling people to

1:10:56

put our ultimate faith in the

1:10:58

After party. And by the after party

1:11:00

We mean what comes after partisan politics.

1:11:03

It's the after party. And what mean

1:11:05

by that is the ultimate promise of

1:11:07

certainty that disciples are called to hold

1:11:10

onto. which is the return of are

1:11:12

keen, the return of our true ruler

1:11:14

of all things And scriptures clear that

1:11:17

that with that event happens in the

1:11:19

future. It's like a party. It's

1:11:21

like of. It is the wedding

1:11:23

feast of the lamp when when

1:11:26

Jesus returns to restore and reunite

1:11:28

and repair all things. That's the

1:11:30

only moment when all of the

1:11:32

problems and travails and losses that

1:11:34

we fear in this world are

1:11:36

fully decisively addressed completely. All party

1:11:38

politics of you have are gay

1:11:41

are mere shadows, their mere pointers

1:11:43

to that day there. and therefore

1:11:45

they will disappoint us if we're

1:11:47

going to them to resolve our

1:11:49

anxieties. And this is. This is

1:11:51

our message. The yeah, this is the final

1:11:53

message of our after party curriculum is everything

1:11:55

points to that and that's what we hope

1:11:57

for in the future. And Jesus as return.

1:12:01

Raymond Retarded. Hard to say

1:12:03

better than that is. So

1:12:06

here's the challenge. Here's the problem. I know I'm

1:12:08

not telling you eating you don't already know, but

1:12:10

like. I'll give you story back

1:12:12

when I was a local church pastor

1:12:14

and preaching regularly I did a sermon

1:12:16

and I will I think was mostly

1:12:19

about identity and I mentioned something in

1:12:21

my sermon about the the danger of

1:12:23

getting our identity from from political engagement

1:12:25

rather than from or communion with Christ

1:12:27

and his people. and afterwards or a

1:12:29

gentleman came up to me kind of.

1:12:32

Not. Not angry, he was

1:12:34

genuinely, i think confused. and at

1:12:36

the time I was probably

1:12:38

thirty. And. He was. Fifty.

1:12:41

Something. And

1:12:43

he had young adult children. And he

1:12:45

was trying to. Get. Me to

1:12:47

clarify what I meant by by some things

1:12:49

I said and so finally said to him

1:12:51

Listen the I and I knew some of

1:12:53

his kids I said isn't more important for

1:12:56

you that your children grow up. And.

1:12:58

Are committed to following Jesus or that they grow

1:13:01

up and are committed to voting. For.

1:13:03

Your political party. And

1:13:05

he looked at me and he said and he wasn't.

1:13:08

Being. Facetious, Or or

1:13:10

sarcastic he said, what's the

1:13:13

difference right? right? He genuinely

1:13:15

did not see any daylight

1:13:17

between his political affiliation and

1:13:19

his commitment to Christ. so.

1:13:22

The. Reason I bring that up is because

1:13:24

for somebody like him who for decades

1:13:26

of his christian life has been to

1:13:28

form not by the church but by

1:13:30

the broader christian sub culture has been

1:13:33

formed to equate is Christian faith know

1:13:35

with his. Partisan. Identity?

1:13:37

Yeah. How

1:13:39

is this curriculum really going to help someone

1:13:41

like that differentiate the to or is a

1:13:43

better offer a younger person who's as wading

1:13:45

into this world to go? Oh okay, I

1:13:48

gotta be careful not to equate these things.

1:13:51

Will. You always want to hold out some

1:13:53

hope for people who are hot and idolatry.

1:13:55

And that's without his thoughts Idolatry when we

1:13:57

are actually tweeting or even elevating a different

1:13:59

identity. with our with. If

1:14:01

the. Identity of gotta Hit Jesus Ride.

1:14:04

So yeah I never want to say

1:14:06

there's no hope for such people. but

1:14:08

yes I would not say that. You

1:14:10

know I hold out like oh yeah,

1:14:13

this curriculum is designed for the. Bagger

1:14:16

Acting or even the Or or

1:14:18

the far left version of that

1:14:20

harass or that who are so

1:14:22

committed to it, the or progressive

1:14:24

politics right on our that they

1:14:26

equate it with Jesus So ah,

1:14:28

but I do think that the

1:14:30

the best way in the best

1:14:33

hope for people like that or

1:14:35

that they are actually. Friends.

1:14:38

Neighbors. Relatives of.

1:14:41

People. Who don't think that way and

1:14:43

who can actually call them out to

1:14:46

see the difference? You know. I think

1:14:48

the thing I will be most persuasive

1:14:50

to that person that uses magic is

1:14:52

that they meet and are become friends

1:14:55

with a committed Christian who has different

1:14:57

politics and that that is it becomes

1:14:59

a kind of living kind of question

1:15:02

marks for him from his worldview and

1:15:04

so what we want to do with

1:15:06

the after party is actually encourage, motivate,

1:15:08

give language to the audience that is

1:15:11

hungry for. And identity that is

1:15:13

not. Boil down to their party

1:15:15

identities and there are many millions

1:15:17

of them out the yes, ah

1:15:19

and and so we what We

1:15:21

have to give him a flag

1:15:23

to rally around terms that they

1:15:25

can use a It identity, a

1:15:27

political identity that is Christ centered,

1:15:29

not party political parties and or

1:15:31

I think those people are going

1:15:33

to the be most effective ambassadors,

1:15:35

evangelists, healers for people like the

1:15:37

person that you're talking about and

1:15:39

that this is the other problem.

1:15:41

With silence or was as the

1:15:44

strategy for for pastors and other

1:15:46

christian leaders as we are not

1:15:48

then nursing the people who are

1:15:50

actually hungry for a healthy identity

1:15:52

crisis we because we're advocating that

1:15:54

whole topic entirely so maybe they

1:15:57

don't fully drift over to the

1:15:59

far extremes. A political idolatry. But

1:16:01

they're left paralyzed and they're left discouraged

1:16:03

and they're left thinking am I

1:16:05

crazy arm and so part of the

1:16:08

work of actually. Offering.

1:16:10

Something is to say to those people.

1:16:12

know you're not crazy and in fact.

1:16:15

You. Know here's how right you officers

1:16:17

are correct spears out to Here's here's

1:16:19

your the others even further of health

1:16:21

that you can see down this path

1:16:23

of center in your politics and Jesus.

1:16:26

To us have this graph in the in or

1:16:29

to. Chart. Graph. God.

1:16:31

To Buy to Yeah, A To Buy To

1:16:33

write that illustrates what you're talking about of

1:16:35

Crysis, a podcast and most people are not

1:16:38

watching this and you tube like it. If

1:16:40

you can imagine an X axis with humility

1:16:42

and a Y axis with hope and then

1:16:45

you have these four quadrants. Yeah, Ah

1:16:47

were listen. To. Find all four

1:16:49

of them, but it sounds like what you are

1:16:51

describing earlier was the exhausted person. That's.

1:16:53

Low Kick defined using the hope and

1:16:56

humility component or who that person is

1:16:58

and how do you move them to

1:17:00

the quadrant you want? Yeah and to

1:17:02

well I'm gonna just challenge my abilities

1:17:04

to just narrate or visual realities overall

1:17:06

audio medium here skies because what you're

1:17:08

talking about is our hope. Humility out

1:17:10

to buy to it's a quadrants and

1:17:13

I have. I actually think this is

1:17:15

like one of our secret sauces are

1:17:17

three. I get party Sri Lanka and

1:17:19

so thank you guys. So it's think

1:17:21

I Hope and Humility on an X

1:17:23

and Y axis like Scar describes. And

1:17:25

if you do that you get for

1:17:28

profiles seizing have some he has high

1:17:30

in hope and humility. That's the disciple

1:17:32

because a disciple his humble like I

1:17:34

don't know everything. That's why I'm a

1:17:36

disciple of a disciple means learner and

1:17:38

know your Heidi votes. But you're also

1:17:40

hi Hope because as a disciples you're

1:17:42

a disciple of it means you found

1:17:45

a Rabbi. You found somebody who can

1:17:47

actually teach you for your hopefully I

1:17:49

can learn. So then the eggs, the

1:17:51

arm Italy's the City was high and

1:17:53

hope. And low in humility. That's

1:17:55

the combatants because the combat things I

1:17:58

can win. So that's why I'm. The

1:18:00

applied and but their loan humility cause they

1:18:02

think they're right and everybody else the other

1:18:04

side is wrong. Now Sotomayor saw are those

1:18:06

who are full of those. But the I

1:18:08

think the world is especially full of the

1:18:10

what you describe the great Austin and exhausted

1:18:12

is somebody who's high in humility. They don't

1:18:15

think they have all the answers but they

1:18:17

are. They also think that's hopeless like that.

1:18:19

That's why they're exhausted. That's why they checked

1:18:21

out. There. Pulling back in, the person

1:18:23

who's low in hope and low in

1:18:25

humility is the cynic because they think

1:18:28

they're right there. You're standing apart from

1:18:30

everybody else with their arms folded and

1:18:32

their eyes look and neo kind of

1:18:34

superiority over what else. And the one

1:18:37

thing that they're most certain about that

1:18:39

their rights is as everything's hopeless. And

1:18:41

so that's that's the cynic and what.

1:18:43

I really like that because of Will.

1:18:46

For one thing, it actually describes Russell,

1:18:48

David, and myself. So you know Russell

1:18:50

is the exhausted. He's. He's in

1:18:52

terms of what he's been through. I'm actually

1:18:54

the cynic. That's why of actually not been

1:18:56

that much of a politically gates bigger for

1:18:59

most of my life is because I think

1:19:01

that's all hopeless. and I I know better.

1:19:03

And will you know David, you can in

1:19:05

this regard to get proper to say that

1:19:07

David is is as temperamentally a combatant, so

1:19:10

it's a way for us to embody. These

1:19:12

characters are not answered. Recognize that each the

1:19:14

three of us have have our own distinct

1:19:16

roast curves. Towards the Disciples

1:19:18

and we actually start the course with

1:19:21

a quiz that invites the participants to

1:19:23

take a quiz and identify we're of

1:19:25

these or profiles that most identifies that

1:19:27

and the reason why I think that's

1:19:29

something of a secret sauce is because

1:19:31

it embodies this move from the watch

1:19:34

to the how are you do a

1:19:36

pot course i'm politics on the what.

1:19:38

eventually you give him a quiz are

1:19:40

starting quiz the diagnosis them on the

1:19:42

what of politics which means everybody's and

1:19:45

sorts themselves are you liberal or conservative

1:19:47

and. Where. Are you on the spectrum

1:19:49

and immediately your pitted against other people

1:19:51

are in that in that spectrum but

1:19:53

when you put them on this to

1:19:55

buy to of hope in humility well

1:19:58

you can be and exhausted conservative. And

1:20:00

you can be an exhausted progressive. you

1:20:02

can be exhausted, combatant, exhaust Rb sorry,

1:20:04

a progressive kebabs or conservative combat right

1:20:06

And so will we. Found in the

1:20:08

courses that is actually opens a really

1:20:10

interesting conversations because we leave them through

1:20:13

compositions of why did you could become

1:20:15

a combined or why did you become

1:20:17

an exhaust more the forces there And

1:20:19

then you find conservatism progressive talking about

1:20:21

very similar emotional or relational dynamics. It's

1:20:23

just the what it was different and

1:20:25

but we're not even talking about the

1:20:27

what we're talking about. All these how

1:20:29

dynamics. In our lives. So before

1:20:32

we wrap up in the in the ministry of

1:20:34

us, I'm curious to hear it in the curriculums.

1:20:36

Been out for a few months now. What kind

1:20:38

of feedback are you hearing? What changes are you?

1:20:41

Noticing. And churches are group center

1:20:43

engaging in the after party. Work.

1:20:46

We I I really. Encourage

1:20:48

because our hypothesis that if nothing else

1:20:50

we give people a way to connect

1:20:52

with each other across political differences is

1:20:55

happening. People are reporting that of this

1:20:57

is awful. Were able to actually gathered

1:20:59

together in our small group where we

1:21:01

know we have political differences but we've

1:21:03

been avoiding them all long and this

1:21:05

a surface them but we can there's

1:21:08

you're giving us some categories to talk

1:21:10

about it and you're giving a some

1:21:12

categories to find some common ground like

1:21:14

we're both exhausted or both kebabs and

1:21:16

so forth. And so I. Would say

1:21:18

that's been the most encouraging thing is that

1:21:20

that central. Instinct

1:21:23

hypothesis that we had that small

1:21:25

groups are the best place for

1:21:27

these compositions to happen. If you

1:21:30

can structure the composition correctly, that

1:21:32

has been validated. I would say

1:21:34

the biggest question mark for us

1:21:37

has been will people. Are.

1:21:39

Give it a chance. Ah, and and because

1:21:41

there's a lot of exotic, What? What it?

1:21:43

what. We get a lot of feedback. A.

1:21:46

From pastors or other gatekeepers. Small group

1:21:48

leaders of just sheer anxiety. I swear

1:21:50

I nervous as it's not a substance

1:21:52

of rejection they have. It's just like

1:21:54

I'm afraid of what this might do.

1:21:56

I'm afraid because they've been so used

1:21:58

to doing the final. Avoidance.

1:22:01

Strategy. This is inviting them to do

1:22:03

something different. And and that's the challenges can

1:22:05

week? Yes, enough people to overcome their own

1:22:07

anxiety in. I think that I'm one of

1:22:10

the in delusions a lot of us have

1:22:12

been living under his. Some of us thought

1:22:14

like back and twenty sixteen Okay, this this

1:22:16

Trump's. Candidacy is nuts. What? He's

1:22:18

never gonna win and he'll go away. Obviously

1:22:20

he want he didn't go away. And then

1:22:22

Twenty Twenty came along and both of the

1:22:24

pandemic and the election. everyone's like this is

1:22:27

madness by a won't last forever, the it'll

1:22:29

go away and what. And then we'll get

1:22:31

back to normal and ally churches. avoided a

1:22:33

dance. And of course here we are and

1:22:35

Twenty Twenty Four and. It's.

1:22:37

The new normal like it is still that

1:22:39

way and I think there are some folks

1:22:41

who are den delusional going. Well it's an

1:22:44

election year. This will be the end of

1:22:46

it. Finally in own. Trump and Biden aren't

1:22:48

immortal. they're gonna go away. It's not the

1:22:50

way and I will give access and I'm

1:22:52

hoping that more more churches are realizing we

1:22:54

cannot afford. To. Just ignore this

1:22:57

week. We. Can't

1:22:59

bypass this area of formation.

1:23:02

And rather than succumb to a partisan voice

1:23:04

in that formation there is a resource like

1:23:06

the after party that them there is rooted

1:23:09

in in hope and humility. If I can

1:23:11

get on my soapbox from one last thing

1:23:13

I would go so I get on a

1:23:15

sit does there and just as of Ira

1:23:17

apart from whether you use as curriculum or

1:23:20

not especially if he's as curriculum like. We.

1:23:22

Just need to be a tune to what. Media.

1:23:25

Are we marinate in in that

1:23:27

takes us away from hope and

1:23:29

humility? Because I would think if

1:23:31

if a group goes through this

1:23:33

curriculum that you've put together but

1:23:36

they're still sitting and twenty hours

1:23:38

a week of certainty and anger

1:23:40

and activism and and combative voices

1:23:42

or cynicism or whatever. it's not

1:23:44

gonna help like we did have.

1:23:47

We need to turn off those

1:23:49

voices and turn on the ones

1:23:51

that are calling us to humility

1:23:53

and hope. So.

1:23:56

And I wish our churches lifted those

1:23:59

values up more. He explicitly as

1:24:01

it relates to the public engagement

1:24:03

in politics. yeah cause I could

1:24:05

just to jump in with on

1:24:07

out. Final Really wonderful so box

1:24:09

message is that you're one of

1:24:11

our sessions on the exhausted. The

1:24:13

call to action for the exhausts

1:24:15

is actually to get off social

1:24:17

media is enormously exhausting. To be

1:24:20

other, you are exit bathed in

1:24:22

all those voices of anxiety, thirty

1:24:24

hatred that drives that particular quadrant

1:24:26

of people into exhausted. I think

1:24:28

you're hundred percent rights that. We

1:24:31

do need to call our people

1:24:33

to in this season. Two.

1:24:35

A Fast and a feast. Or we

1:24:37

need a modern from a fast of

1:24:40

and the fast as they fast. I

1:24:42

think from all the media sources that

1:24:44

do drain us from hope and humility

1:24:47

and I I I really do think

1:24:49

the or this is a season for

1:24:51

passers and and families or just really

1:24:54

does say let's take a thirty day

1:24:56

fast from political social media, political news

1:24:58

of on sorts and see what that

1:25:01

does to us and replace it by

1:25:03

feasting on Caesar's centered curriculum Content. News

1:25:05

and let's see what that does. I

1:25:08

have a deep deep hope that if

1:25:10

people actually do that built, their eyes

1:25:12

will be opened. at least some of

1:25:15

them be eyes to be of like

1:25:17

oh, that we've I've been eating toxic

1:25:19

food for years now and let's let's

1:25:21

beast on something better. I

1:25:23

agree entirely. So where can people go

1:25:26

if they want to learn more or

1:25:28

even start this curriculum at their own

1:25:30

church? So. For the curriculum

1:25:32

to check it out to do

1:25:34

after Das party.org after-party.org and the

1:25:36

curriculum is free so this is

1:25:38

anybody can take it. It's free.

1:25:41

Ads as a Jap or interest in very

1:25:44

soon on April Twenty third if they want

1:25:46

to just quickly check out the curriculum in

1:25:48

in terms of its elle substance, you can

1:25:50

order the book, you can preorder the book,

1:25:53

and depending whether Spock as Drops or the

1:25:55

after party is a book. Written

1:25:58

by myself and Nancy French. A

1:26:00

little teaser. We. Have music

1:26:02

coming out his own. Yes

1:26:05

called. The songs for the after party

1:26:07

are because Sky if you're a pastor

1:26:10

and your this actually do a Swiss

1:26:12

A, it's time to do a Sunday

1:26:14

service and healthy Krisher politics. What is

1:26:16

the worships that. Some. Like I

1:26:19

don't care as long as if not ukulele. Or.

1:26:22

Like Onward Christian Soldiers are like I have

1:26:24

found the of right. Let's say away from

1:26:26

Millicent anything on this is why we don't

1:26:28

have one. We don't actually. So we've covered

1:26:31

with Porter's Gate to actually produce a worship

1:26:33

album about Jesus censored politics and what I

1:26:35

have to give people. Music.

1:26:37

Words worship to actually seeing these truths

1:26:39

out as well, and so stay tuned

1:26:42

for that that's coming out later this

1:26:44

summer. Wine. And currency. Hear that

1:26:46

you're going multimedia on us because I thought

1:26:48

that that's how formation works, it has to

1:26:50

be and that his words on paper it

1:26:53

needs to be embodied and song and lived.

1:26:55

And yeah Richard and I'm working. I'm working

1:26:57

on my interpretive dance routine that assesses Curtis

1:26:59

saying since her for this American politics through

1:27:02

the gospel in his in his dance moves

1:27:04

as that would be great are Curtis They

1:27:06

do for the really good work that you're

1:27:08

doing along with the rest your team and

1:27:11

resource in the church when it so desperately

1:27:13

needs at Grateful to have. You'd in that

1:27:15

space. thanks er been her. Great.

1:27:18

To be or start. Thank you. To. Holy Post

1:27:20

Podcast is a production of Holy Post

1:27:22

Me.