0:01

Guess what day it is? It's

0:05

French Friday, it's French Friday, so

0:07

grab your fries and say hooray!

0:09

David French is here to play

0:11

on French Friday! It's

0:13

French Friday! David

0:18

French, welcome back. Thanks

0:20

so much for having me, Skye. So

0:23

we are in February 2024, the

0:26

South Carolina primaries are on the corner than

0:28

Super Tuesday. A lot of folks think that

0:30

both parties have got their candidates wrapped up.

0:32

It's going to be Biden, it's going to be Trump.

0:36

I don't like to do this all the time,

0:38

but I think I want to dedicate time today

0:40

to the election and the dynamics of this election

0:42

and what we're facing. So last

0:44

week, Robert Herr's report came out. He's

0:46

the special counsel that was looking into

0:48

President Biden's classified material that

0:51

was found in his home and investigating whether or

0:53

not there was any basis for charges

0:55

against the president for holding that material. And I don't

0:57

want to get into that story as much because that's

0:59

a whole other thing. But the bombshell

1:01

that came out of his report was not

1:04

about the classified material, but part of Robert

1:07

Herr's reason for not bringing charges against

1:09

the president had to

1:11

do with his age and mental acuity.

1:15

One point the report says he

1:17

characterized Biden as well-meaning elderly man

1:19

with a poor memory who had

1:22

diminished faculties in advancing age. And

1:25

therefore, to prosecute him didn't

1:27

make sense because a jury probably wouldn't convict

1:29

him given his

1:31

feeble-mindedness, I guess. This

1:34

got quite a reaction from the White House

1:36

and from President Biden himself, but it did

1:38

bring back into the spotlight the fact that

1:40

he is 81 years old. And

1:44

between him and Trump, they will be the oldest

1:46

people ever to run for the presidency,

1:49

surpassing four years ago the same

1:51

two candidates as John

1:54

Stewart pointed out in The Daily Show. So

1:57

I want to talk to you about this issue of his age and what to

1:59

do about it. First off, do

2:01

you think it's unfair or wrong for the press

2:03

to be making a big deal out of his

2:05

age, or is there

2:08

something really there? It's

2:10

not remotely unfair or wrong to

2:12

make a big deal about his

2:14

age when there are signs

2:16

that age is impacting him. If

2:20

he was 81, and I think we've probably met

2:22

people who are 81, I've met people who are

2:26

81 who, I mean,

2:28

they're absolutely on top of it, and they

2:30

are extremely vigorous.

2:35

You can't believe they're 81. When

2:38

I see Joe Biden, I absolutely can

2:40

believe he's 81. All

2:44

Americans can. 86%

2:47

of Americans believe he's too old

2:49

to be president. Why? Because,

2:51

Skye, he's too old to be

2:53

president. The

2:55

problem that we have, though, is when you say that,

2:57

then people say, well, what about Trump? I'm

2:59

with you. I think

3:02

Donald Trump is A, too old to be

3:04

president, B, too corrupt to be president, C,

3:06

and too incompetent to be president. You go

3:09

down the list. When

3:11

I say Joe Biden is too old to be

3:13

president, I'm not saying, and therefore vote for Donald

3:15

Trump. That's how people

3:17

fill in the blanks there. No, no, no.

3:20

Not at all. Better

3:22

than Trump is a really

3:24

low bar here. Sure. I

3:27

think he's better than Trump. I think that's a really

3:29

low bar. Guess what? When

3:32

86% of America thinks that he is

3:34

too old to be president, you

3:37

have an electoral vulnerability there.

3:41

The bottom line is you don't eliminate

3:43

that electoral vulnerability by screaming at people

3:46

on social media to shut up about

3:48

his age. We're

3:51

dealing with a universal human experience

3:54

at this point. We

3:56

have 81-year-old relatives. We

3:59

have some of our parents. parents might be in that

4:01

age range. And when

4:03

you look at that and you experience that, you

4:05

know that when you're 81, each

4:08

day you have might be

4:10

your best day and every

4:13

other day gets harder. And

4:16

you cannot just cause people

4:18

to drop that concern by

4:21

yelling at them about Donald Trump.

4:24

As much as I agree that

4:26

I think Joe Biden is a better, will

4:28

be a better president than Donald Trump, you

4:31

can still say, but I'm really nervous

4:33

about his age. And there's nothing wrong

4:35

with that sky because it's sensible,

4:38

normal, common sense concern

4:40

to raise. I think one

4:42

of the things that's interesting about this, this

4:45

criticism of Biden is it has

4:47

nothing to do with policy. It has nothing

4:49

to do with ideology. It has nothing to

4:51

do with partisanship. And as you put it,

4:53

it is a universally experienced human reality. We

4:55

all have people in our lives who age

4:58

and we recognize it. So it's an

5:00

interesting challenge for the Democrats

5:02

and for Biden because you can't just

5:04

chalk it up to partisanship or

5:07

biased media or something like that. The

5:10

other thing that was striking is when you go back

5:12

and watch footage of him from the 2020 election, granted

5:14

it was a weird election because of the pandemic and

5:16

he wasn't out on the road as much. So that

5:18

may have reserved some of his energy. Just

5:21

his speaking voice and presence had more

5:23

vigor than it does now. He

5:25

has clear, and this has been true of everybody

5:27

who's occupied that office. There's always those comedians who

5:29

will take photos of a president

5:32

on their inauguration day and then four,

5:34

eight years later and show how much

5:36

they've aged because everyone agrees it's an

5:38

incredibly challenging and taxing job. But

5:41

when you're 81 years old, it's

5:43

that much more taxing. So it's

5:46

clear the effect on him has been negative

5:49

and his stamina is not what it was. You

5:53

speak publicly a lot. I have to

5:55

throughout my adult life. And

5:57

one of the things I learned early on as a public speaker

6:00

is that if I am visibly nervous,

6:03

it makes the audience nervous. They empathize

6:05

with you and it's

6:07

distracting. So the sooner I

6:09

could learn how to hide my nervousness

6:11

and put the audience at ease, it

6:13

works better. And I've noticed myself when

6:15

I watch President Biden on television, I

6:18

get nervous watching him because he seems

6:20

so frail or what's he going to

6:23

say or is he? Yeah. And

6:25

it's very off-putting when that's the

6:27

commander in chief and that's the guy in charge

6:29

of the federal government. Whereas with

6:31

President Trump, I also got very

6:33

nervous when he would speak or do anything publicly

6:35

but I wasn't nervous for him, I was

6:38

nervous for me. What is he going

6:40

to say? What is he going to do? So

6:42

both these guys are really

6:45

unsavory candidates for

6:47

different reasons but it

6:49

feels like we're stuck with them. Yeah. Well,

6:53

and one reason why we're stuck with them is

6:55

because we have their

6:58

fate that everyone says I can't

7:00

believe they are giving

7:02

us these two candidates again. Well,

7:05

who's they? It should be we. Like

7:07

the statement is I can't believe we are doing

7:09

this again because there is Trump

7:11

is winning overwhelmingly

7:13

in the contested primary. There

7:17

is a tiny bit of a primary on the

7:19

Democratic side. I mean, there's a little bit more

7:21

sense that there is

7:24

a they on the Democratic side who are

7:26

giving us Biden but it really is a

7:28

he. It's Biden who's giving us Biden because

7:30

it's really up to him. The

7:34

Democrats are kind of in a bind because everyone

7:37

knows recent political history. If you mount

7:39

a serious primary challenge to a sitting

7:41

president, your party tends to

7:44

lose. That happened in 1976. There

7:47

was a Reagan primary challenge to Gerald

7:49

Ford and then Gerald Ford loses.

7:51

That happened in 1980. There

7:53

was a Ted Kennedy primary challenge

7:55

to Jimmy Carter. Jimmy Carter lost. That

7:57

happened in 1992. There

8:00

was a Pat Buchanan primary

8:02

challenge to George H.W. Bush.

8:05

H.W. Bush loses. So the lesson all

8:07

these parties have taken is if

8:09

there's a serious primary challenge to our

8:12

incumbent president, we're probably losing

8:14

this. It splits the party, it fractures it.

8:16

So it's up to Joe Biden to say,

8:19

no, I'm not going to pursue this. And

8:22

as we've, when we've had conversation,

8:24

Sky, with our own relatives and

8:26

loved ones, often the

8:29

last person to recognize that

8:31

they need to step away is the loved

8:33

one you're talking to. They're

8:36

the last one to reach that conclusion. Because

8:38

think about how hard that of a conclusion

8:40

that is to reach, to say, I am

8:42

now in such a twilight phase

8:44

of my life that I can't do my

8:46

job and I need to retire is a

8:48

hard thing for human being to confront. And

8:51

then when you layer it, the

8:53

pride of the presidency, the power of the

8:56

presidency, the perks of the presidency, and

8:58

then one of the things you're saying to Joe Biden is you

9:01

might lose to the guy that you

9:04

already beat and who

9:06

is also quite old and

9:08

who also completely garbles his syntax

9:10

and his words and everything. Why

9:12

should he be the one to step aside? And

9:15

so you really get into this dynamic

9:18

that is Joe Biden

9:20

has to decide on his

9:22

own that it is not time for

9:24

him to run again. And that's a really, really,

9:26

really hard thing to do. So

9:29

I concur with you on the on the

9:31

political realities of this, the history of parties

9:33

that run opposition candidates and the

9:35

primaries against their incumbent presidents don't fare

9:37

well. But it raises the question,

9:40

and maybe this

9:42

has happened, I've obviously got no insider knowledge, but

9:44

why aren't more stakeholder

9:47

Democrats trying to convince

9:49

Biden behind the scenes? Forget a public primary

9:51

challenge. Why aren't they trying to convince him

9:53

behind the scenes that this is not a

9:55

good move? And beyond that, I

9:58

don't know Biden at all. But I

10:01

tend to, no doubt he's

10:04

got an ego, anybody who runs for the presidency has

10:06

to. But when he decided

10:08

not to run in 2016, because he was

10:11

in that grief over the loss of his

10:13

son, and he did decide to run in

10:15

2020, I think there had

10:17

to be some reality to the narrative that he

10:19

chose to run in 2020 because he knew

10:22

the country was in peril with

10:24

Trump. Right. And that he was one

10:26

of the few Democrats that had the potential to unify the party and

10:28

put up a really good chance. So

10:31

I'm not saying it was without ego, but

10:34

anyway, bringing that motivation forward to

10:37

2024, I could

10:40

see Biden ending his career as

10:42

a genuine hero. Yeah. If

10:44

he were to go out saying, Hey, I

10:46

defeated Donald Trump, I turned the economy around

10:48

after the pandemic, we

10:50

passed the infrastructure bill, we've kept things back

10:53

on track. And I'm

10:55

going to magnanimous magnanimously, like George

10:57

Washington, step aside from the presidency

10:59

at the height of my power,

11:02

because I care about the country and the future. And I

11:05

mean, he could go down in history as a truly

11:08

saintly figure as a president if he were to

11:10

bow out now, but all that's at risk because

11:13

he won't. Where are the Democrats

11:15

behind the scenes trying to convince him that that's

11:17

the right play? Yeah, that's

11:19

interesting. I think there are Democrats in

11:21

front of the scenes trying to convince

11:23

him. So we'll get

11:26

into that. So we'll get into that. So

11:28

Mike Kelly gets reclined. He did a much

11:30

talked about sort of audio essay where he

11:32

walked through that Biden should step aside and

11:35

let a convention decide his replacement. So

11:38

there's actually in front

11:41

of the scenes, behind the scenes, a lot of people

11:43

are talking about this, but at the

11:45

very end of the day, it has to

11:47

be Joe Biden's call. And

11:50

then if you're a Democrat or if you're not a

11:52

Democrat and you're somebody like me who sees

11:55

Trump as a uniquely

11:57

dangerous figure, then

11:59

you... kind of you're in

12:01

this position where you

12:04

have a really tough sell that you're trying

12:06

to make because

12:08

you cannot say that his age doesn't

12:10

matter. That's gaslighting people,

12:12

that people get literally angry

12:15

at that. If you

12:17

try to tell them age doesn't matter

12:19

because everybody knows age matters. Everybody knows.

12:22

So you can't do that with a straight face although

12:24

people are trying it on Twitter, bless

12:27

their hearts. But there

12:29

is a way you can say, no

12:31

wait a minute, as difficult as and

12:34

as suboptimal as it might be to vote for

12:36

an 81 year old president who's obviously in

12:39

a difficult, on the down slope of

12:41

his mental acuity and his physical

12:44

vigor and all of that, he's

12:47

better than the other guy. And

12:49

a lot of Democrats are really sleeping on

12:51

how hard it's going to be to make

12:53

that case because the Democrats all know chapter

12:55

and verse the case against Trump. They know

12:57

all of the things that Trump has done.

13:00

I 100% guarantee you Holy Post listeners

13:04

that Republicans and independents do

13:06

not know all the details

13:08

of the case against Trump. They

13:10

don't. And that might be

13:12

gobsmacking to you, that might be shocking

13:14

to you, you might not believe it,

13:16

but believe it. And so

13:18

what you're having to do then is make a

13:21

case to somebody who doesn't know much

13:23

at all about Trump's scandals that

13:26

they should vote for the guy who's

13:28

in obvious decline because the

13:31

competitor who while he's in

13:33

decline, he presents himself differently, right?

13:36

That the competitor is more

13:38

dangerous, but for reasons that you don't

13:40

yet know. And

13:42

that's a really hard sell. And I know

13:44

there are people screaming at their phones while

13:46

they're listening saying, everybody knows

13:48

all the bats. No, live

13:52

in Tennessee guys, live

13:54

in Tennessee and ask a

13:57

Trump voter here a very basic.

14:00

question about a very basic Trump

14:02

scandal and you

14:05

will be surprised at the

14:07

lack of response. So

14:10

that gets to the point where I my

14:13

fear is that if Biden does stay in

14:15

the race and it is Biden versus Trump

14:17

in November we could

14:19

see a repeat of 2016. Yes. Where

14:22

Biden may well win the popular vote but

14:25

still lose the presidency because all it takes

14:27

is a few hundred thousand votes in

14:30

Michigan Pennsylvania and Georgia or

14:32

Arizona Georgia

14:35

and you know what was in

14:37

Nevada maybe and just takes a couple hundred thousand votes

14:39

in a few swing states to tip it for

14:41

Trump in the electoral college and

14:44

when you look at Biden's approval rate is

14:46

in the 30s there's some

14:48

question about will young people come out and vote

14:50

for him given how upset many

14:53

of them are over the Israeli Gaza

14:55

war going on and his administration's handling

14:57

of it the perception that inflation and

14:59

the economy is softer than maybe the

15:01

numbers would indicate it actually is and

15:03

then you throw his age and fragility

15:05

into the mix and some low

15:07

information voters who don't know about all of Trump

15:09

scandals and who just simply see these two characters

15:12

on television and go that guy's declining

15:15

pretty quickly and Trump may be speaking nonsense

15:17

but he always has so that's kind of

15:19

factored in but he presents himself with a

15:21

lot of energy and vigor that

15:24

could be enough to swing this election for Trump

15:26

and that's frightening yeah

15:31

sorry go ahead no I mean I'm

15:33

just affirming yes I want to get

15:37

into Ezra Klein's argument and we'll link to his

15:39

piece in the in the show notes you can

15:41

either listen to it or read it if you

15:43

have a New York Times but for

15:45

those who don't know who Ezra Klein is he's your colleague at

15:47

the New York Times he's very

15:49

progressive he's very liberal he thinks Biden

15:52

has been an excellent president supports most

15:54

of his policies but

15:56

what's given him pause is he mentions the fact that the

15:59

Biden White House House turned down invitations to

16:01

have the president interviewed before the Super

16:03

Bowl, which would be the largest audience

16:06

that the president could possibly engage in.

16:08

Typically, those presidential interviews before the Super

16:10

Bowl are not exactly hard-hitting

16:13

journalism. They tend to be softball environments

16:15

that allows the president, whoever's in office,

16:18

to speak to the American people. The

16:21

Biden administration turned that down, which

16:23

for Ezra Klein was like a huge red flag

16:25

that they don't believe this

16:27

guy can do it. He cites James Carville, who was

16:30

a strategist for Bill Clinton back in 1992. And

16:33

Carville said that every campaign has

16:35

certain assets, and the most desirable

16:37

asset is the candidate. And

16:40

the Biden campaign does not deploy Biden

16:42

like he is a desirable asset. They're

16:44

trying to, in other words, protect the

16:47

campaign from the candidate because they don't

16:49

have confidence in his strength to

16:51

pull this off. All that

16:53

leads Ezra Klein to say, we got

16:56

to pull Biden, and someone else needs to be

16:58

the candidate for the Democrats. And he floats the

17:00

idea of an open convention. So

17:02

describe, for those who aren't familiar with the inside

17:05

mechanics of partisan politics, what

17:08

does he mean by an open convention,

17:11

and what could that produce for the

17:14

Democratic Party? Yeah, so boy,

17:16

this is super intriguing. It is. And

17:19

just to affirm that when Ezra does this,

17:22

this really matters because Ezra, as

17:24

you said, is a progressive Democrat. If

17:26

I say, hey, Joe Biden

17:29

should really consider stepping aside, Democrats

17:32

are going to be like, oh, a

17:34

never Trump conservative. I'm going to totally

17:36

do what he says, right? But

17:39

if it is a progressive Democrat,

17:41

I mean, people pay much

17:44

more attention in a progressive

17:46

Democratic Party, obviously. Yeah, there's been a lot

17:48

of blowback for his piece. Huge

17:50

blowback. But essentially the way to think

17:52

of his suggestion is essentially

17:55

like rewinding the clock on

17:58

selecting a president. years and years

18:00

and years, the way in

18:02

which a party selected a president was literally

18:05

you would go to the convention. And

18:08

different candidates would be floated,

18:10

discussed, and decided, and literally

18:13

the convention decided who

18:15

the candidate would be. So

18:17

this was your classic sort of

18:19

smoke-filled room behind backdoor maneuvering, and

18:22

the convention would produce a candidate. Well

18:25

that's all been, that's been

18:27

done for a while, starting in the 60s, moving

18:29

into the 70s. We

18:31

moved into the primary era of selecting

18:33

presidential candidates. And so all the convention

18:36

is, isn't so much a, it

18:38

used to be the conventions were a hugely

18:41

important news event to cover because the convention

18:43

was actually selecting the candidate. Now it's just

18:45

an extended rally where

18:48

the candidate is already selected, they go in

18:51

and at the convention what the candidate does

18:53

is sort of introduce himself to the American

18:55

people or herself to the American people. And

18:58

it's the kickoff of like the final phase

19:00

of the campaign. What

19:02

Ezra is suggesting is, no, let's go back instead

19:05

of 2024, let's go back to 1924

19:07

and say,

19:10

and have Joe Biden step aside and then

19:12

it will be up to the convention delegates

19:15

to select the candidate.

19:18

Now on the

19:20

one hand part of me is like, the

19:23

journalist part of me is heck yeah. Yeah,

19:26

that'd be great television. That

19:28

would be incredible. I

19:31

mean three to four days of the

19:33

most intense, you know,

19:35

attention being paid, Eyes of America would

19:38

be totally fixed on this Democratic Party

19:40

convention. I

19:42

think there's a lot to the idea to commend

19:44

it Skye with one big caveat.

19:50

The big caveat is the convention

19:52

delegates tend to be well to

19:54

the left of America. So

19:58

just like with the Republicans, the

20:00

Democrats, if you're talking about your party

20:02

activists, your sort of core people who

20:04

really, you know, they put the signs in

20:07

the yard, they become delegates

20:09

to the national convention, these are

20:11

core Democrats. Now, I'm not saying

20:13

they're far left like Antifa or

20:15

something like that, but they're left.

20:21

And in many ways, probably left

20:23

of even the median Democrat. So

20:26

the question would be, how do you win

20:28

that group over? And would

20:30

you have the spectacle of a

20:33

number of candidates moving hard

20:35

to each other's left to

20:38

gather the convention delegates that they need?

20:41

And then at that moment, cementing

20:44

themselves is pretty far left

20:46

of the American public. And then jumping

20:49

into the race. And I think that that,

20:52

as just a practical matter, I do

20:55

wonder about that. I don't think

20:57

the Ezra suggestion will come to

20:59

pass just because Biden won't agree

21:01

to it. But

21:03

I do think it's very

21:06

intriguing. It would

21:08

be fascinating. And then

21:10

also it would require many of these

21:12

delegates to say, okay, we

21:15

need to focus on winning this election, rather

21:17

than accomplishing every line of

21:20

our sort of progressive platform. It

21:23

would require a lot of wisdom and restraint on

21:25

the part of Democratic delegates

21:27

to not necessarily indulge everything

21:29

that they wanted in their

21:31

ideology. Okay, there's

21:33

a hot sun pack here. Let's go with that, the

21:36

problem of the delegates being perhaps

21:39

more to the left than the average Democrat,

21:41

let alone the average American. One

21:43

of the reasons a lot of people suspect that Joe Biden

21:45

won the primary in 2020 is because

21:48

he was one of the

21:50

more moderate candidates running for the

21:52

Democrats. And he was able

21:54

to unite the party and get enough

21:56

moderate votes from Americans in general to

21:58

unseat President Biden. Trump. The

22:01

danger you're suggesting is that if Joe Biden were

22:04

to step aside and this becomes an open convention,

22:08

no doubt they will select a younger candidate

22:11

than Joe Biden. There's no way they're getting

22:13

someone 81 or older, but that candidate they

22:15

select might be far further

22:18

to the left than is

22:20

likely to be elected by a more

22:22

moderate American populace. In other words, they could

22:24

be handing the election over to Trump again

22:27

because they pick an Elizabeth

22:29

Warren or who pick your further

22:32

left candidate. So that's one risk. The other risk

22:34

though, and this gets into a little bit of

22:36

history of why we got to the

22:38

primary system in the first place, was

22:40

the Democratic Convention in 1968, which

22:42

was held here in Chicago, led

22:44

to a riot because

22:47

the candidate that was ultimately

22:49

selected in 1968 was not

22:51

an anti-Vietnam candidate and a lot of younger Democrats

22:53

who were very much against the war at the

22:56

time rioted because

22:58

they felt like this was old men

23:00

in a smoke-filled room picking a candidate rather

23:02

than the will of the people. So the

23:04

party, along with the Republicans, shifted to, all

23:06

right, we're going to have primaries in every

23:09

state now. When you

23:11

vote in a primary, you're essentially voting

23:13

for delegates to select a certain candidate

23:15

when they go to the convention. So

23:18

is there a risk at an

23:20

open primary that the

23:22

delegates will end up –

23:25

I mean, the Democratic Party is a pretty

23:27

broad coalition of a lot of different constituent

23:29

parts. Which span a big

23:32

ideological spectrum. A huge spectrum. How are

23:34

they ever going to come to agree

23:36

on a candidate that

23:38

won't lead to protests and a whole section

23:40

of the party just sitting out the election

23:43

and again handing it to Trump as a

23:45

result? Is what Ezra Klein

23:47

is suggesting actually riskier than having

23:49

an 81-year-old consensus candidate is my

23:51

point. Ha ha. That

23:53

is a great, great question. And I

23:55

tend to think it

23:58

is not riskier. at

24:00

the palpable relief in the American

24:02

people that, because again, remember 80 plus

24:05

percent of Americans think Biden is too

24:07

old to be president. So right from

24:10

the get-go, you're going to have a

24:12

big chunk of America saying, breathing a sigh

24:14

of relief. But

24:16

that's why the

24:18

actual convention process itself

24:22

would have to be very open, very

24:24

transparent, and very reasonable without

24:27

this sort of ideological tacking to

24:30

everyone gets one degree to the

24:32

other person's left to

24:34

sort of demonstrate their authenticity and

24:36

commitment. This is a different deal.

24:38

This would be a unique moment. But

24:41

yeah, Sky, there is no

24:43

path. Once Biden

24:45

decided to run again, there

24:48

is no path that is without

24:51

some degree of real people here. Okay,

24:54

the other piece of this that we haven't talked about

24:56

yet is, and it gets some airtime, but I'm not

24:58

hearing it as much. And Ezra brings it up in

25:00

his piece. Is this whole

25:03

thing about Biden's age really

25:06

a terrifying factor

25:09

because we don't have a vice president that has

25:11

a very high approval rating and

25:13

is well-liked? Like if there were a vice

25:15

president that the country was, yeah, we like

25:18

that person. And if Biden can't handle the

25:20

job and steps aside, we're okay voting for

25:22

him anyway because vice president

25:24

Smith steps in and it's all good.

25:27

But Kamala Harris is not

25:29

broadly liked and whether that is fair or

25:31

unfair, we could talk about, but isn't that

25:34

really a big factor in this that doesn't

25:36

get enough discussion? Oh, it's a

25:38

huge factor in this. It's a huge factor because,

25:40

again, let's remove this conversation

25:42

from social media where it's so mind-blowingly

25:46

dumb and aggressive. The

25:49

fact of the matter is lots of

25:51

Democrats are not happy with Kamala Harris,

25:54

lots of Democrats. And

25:56

so it's not just a Republican

25:58

saying, well, That's a real problem

26:01

that Harris is the vice president because

26:03

and then Of

26:06

course Republicans are not going to like

26:08

the Democratic vice president But lots of

26:10

Democrats remember she flamed out in the

26:12

primary. Yeah, she did not run a

26:14

good campaign in a very dramatic way

26:16

And I was actually kind of

26:19

stumped when Biden chose her To

26:21

be VP because she had flamed

26:23

out so spectacularly in the primary

26:27

And so yeah, this is the fruit of the

26:29

poisonous tree of her selection. So it goes all

26:31

the way back to

26:34

2020 and her selection as VP when I think

26:36

there were other candidates including

26:38

other black women Because

26:41

he we know he wanted to select, you know

26:43

a black woman as a candidate as a VP

26:46

Candidate there were other women

26:48

who I think would have been a much better

26:52

as His

26:54

vice presidential choice, but he chose Harris and

26:56

now here's where we are and this is

27:00

You know sky this is where? partisan

27:03

brain is bad

27:05

and It's really really

27:07

bad now because what partisan brain does

27:10

to people is it makes them unable

27:12

to see political

27:14

reality Mm-hmm, and when

27:16

they encounter information

27:18

that is contrary to their preference they

27:21

tend to disregard it and this

27:24

is one thing that I'm seeing happen in

27:26

parts of the left is they have decided

27:28

that Biden's age shouldn't matter and That

27:31

critiques of Kamala are inherently illegitimate. And

27:34

so they're just radiating anger about all

27:36

of this When

27:39

in part of in in written in

27:41

radiating their anger, they're actually making all

27:43

the problem worse Okay,

27:46

this is a crazy idea, but Could

27:49

Biden slip out of this mess?

27:53

by replacing Kamala Harris, I

27:57

Mean if you if somehow she dropped

27:59

out of ticket and he

28:01

put in Cory Booker or he

28:03

put in, I don't know, Amy

28:05

Klobuchar or Megan

28:07

Whitner, some other vice

28:10

presidential candidate that the country would

28:13

feel better about and his own party might feel

28:15

better about. Would that give more people a sense

28:17

of, okay, I can vote for Biden because

28:20

if he can't finish the job, at

28:22

least the veep is somebody that I can get

28:25

behind. But it's a way for Biden to still

28:27

be, you know, get all

28:29

the grandeur and accolades of being the

28:31

head of the ticket without stepping aside

28:33

but cooling everyone's fear or

28:36

is that just ridiculous? I

28:38

mean, you know, again, so there's a lot

28:40

of things where you would say, here's the

28:42

normal political rule response to this, which

28:45

the normal political rule response to this would

28:47

be ditching a VP is a big freaking

28:49

deal. And it's a huge deal. It's rarely

28:51

ever happened. You just don't do it. But

28:54

again, we're not in normal political times. And

28:57

I think a lot of

28:59

people overestimate the connection between

29:02

black voters and Kamala Harris because

29:05

black voters did not bond with Kamala Harris

29:07

during the primary. They bonded with

29:10

Biden in

29:12

the primary. So if he

29:14

replaced her with Val Demings,

29:16

say, for example, former Orlando

29:18

police chief, former representative from

29:22

the Orlando area, a member of Congress

29:24

was on the shortlist previously, ran

29:27

a really a pretty good,

29:30

she lost to

29:32

Marco Rubio, but she ran, you know,

29:34

a pretty good race against Marco Rubio,

29:37

replace Kamala Harris

29:39

with Val Demings. Would

29:42

that cause a giant explosion in the Democratic

29:45

Party? I could imagine it would if you

29:47

replaced Kamala Harris with a white dude. Sure.

29:49

That would, right. But,

29:52

you know, replacing Kamala Harris with Val Demings,

29:54

who's a black woman, I don't

29:57

know. But Sky,

30:00

It's where in the situation where a

30:02

lot of these ideas floated would be

30:04

political disaster in every

30:07

other circumstance. And now

30:09

here we're saying, well, maybe that

30:11

tells you how alarmed and

30:14

alarming all of this is that

30:16

we're considering moves that in any other

30:18

circumstance would just be a political catastrophe.

30:22

Taking care of your health isn't always easy, but

30:24

it should at least be simple. That's

30:26

why for the last few months I've been drinking AG1. It's

30:30

just one scoop mixed in water once a

30:32

day and it makes me feel great. That's

30:35

because each serving of AG1 delivers my

30:37

daily dose of vitamins, minerals, pre and

30:39

probiotics and more. It's a

30:41

powerful healthy habit that's also powerfully

30:44

simple. I don't know if you've

30:46

noticed, but in the last few months I've lost some

30:48

weight. I've been much more focused on my health and

30:50

part of that is establishing good sustainable

30:52

habits. One of the

30:54

problems is I hate taking pills and

30:56

loads of supplements and that's one reason

30:58

I love AG1. I

31:00

fill my shaker with extra cold water, add one

31:02

scoop of AG1 and I'm ready to go in

31:04

the morning. And if I'm short

31:06

on time, I'll just grab a travel pack.

31:08

Each is an individual serving of AG1 that's

31:11

easy to mix on the go. So if

31:13

you're looking to establish good healthy simple habits

31:15

that are sustainable, there's one product I recommend

31:17

to elevate your health and it's AG1. Try

31:20

AG1 and get a

31:22

free one year supply of

31:25

vitamin D3 plus K2 and

31:27

five free AG1 travel packs

31:30

with your first purchase exclusively

31:32

at www.drinkag1.com/holypost. That's

31:35

www.drinkag1.com/holypost. And

31:38

thanks to AG1 for sponsoring this episode.

31:41

Today's episode is sponsored by Sundays. This

31:43

is Phil. I have a dog.

31:46

You have a dog. We love our dogs and we got to feed

31:48

them something. Fresh food with human grade

31:50

ingredients is a better way to treat our dogs

31:52

than that old bag of whatever that

31:54

stuff is. Sawdust and cow bones, I

31:56

have no idea. But fresh pet food

31:58

is expensive and incandescent. And

32:00

that's where Sundaes comes in. No, not

32:03

today. The new dog food company that

32:05

makes air-dried dog food from a short

32:07

list of human grade ingredients. It's healthy

32:09

with beef, chicken and digestive aids like

32:12

pumpkin and ginger. It's convenient. Unlike other

32:14

fresh dog foods, it's zero prep, zero

32:16

mess and zero stress. Sundaes

32:19

is shelf stable and ships right to

32:21

your door. And it's affordable, costing 40%

32:24

less than other healthy dog food brands because

32:26

they don't waste money shipping frozen packages. We've

32:29

got a special offer for our dog loving

32:31

Holy Posters. Get 35% off

32:33

your first order of Sundaes.

32:36

Go to sundaesfordogs.com/holypost or use

32:38

the code HolyPost at checkout.

32:40

That's sundaesfordogs.com/holypost. Upgrade your pup

32:42

to Sundaes and feel good

32:44

about the food you feed

32:47

your dog. And thanks to

32:49

Sundaes for sponsoring this episode.

32:52

Okay, before we leave this topic, I

32:54

want to talk briefly about the Republican

32:56

side. Because as much as

32:58

the Democrats have an 81 year old president

33:01

that is not looking vigorous

33:03

on the campaign trail, either time

33:05

the Republican convention comes along, their

33:07

candidate may have been convicted of

33:10

multiple crimes. Right. And

33:13

is there any chance that the Republican

33:15

Party would take a look at their

33:18

likelihood of winning and say, we

33:21

need to replace the top

33:23

of the ticket as well. And is that Nikki

33:25

Haley's play here? Is that why she's not dropping

33:27

out? Or is it? I mean, I don't, I

33:29

cannot envision a universe in which Donald Trump voluntarily

33:31

steps aside. I don't think that's

33:33

ever going to happen. But is there any

33:35

chance whatsoever that the Republicans have an open

33:38

convention and replace Trump at the

33:40

top of the ticket? No, no,

33:42

no. Watch it happen after. Yeah,

33:45

right. There's no chance whatsoever. But

33:47

I would say the loyalty that

33:50

the Republican base has

33:52

to Trump is infinitely

33:55

greater than the loyalty the Democratic base

33:57

has for Joe Biden. Trump

34:00

has a cultish following. Joe

34:03

Biden does not. Okay. And

34:06

honestly, that has been a source of both

34:10

political strengths for Biden in

34:13

certain circumstances and weakness.

34:15

The strength is he's not

34:17

beholden to a cult. So he's actually

34:19

able to negotiate

34:21

and compromise. And he's actually gotten

34:24

some meaningful legislation through

34:26

Congress during his presidency, where if

34:28

he's totally beholden to a hardcore

34:30

base would be unlikely to happen.

34:32

But at the same time, when

34:36

you're rolling into an election, he

34:38

doesn't have as high

34:41

a floor as Donald Trump

34:43

has. Donald Trump has a high

34:45

floor. He also has a low ceiling. He

34:48

has a high floor because he

34:50

has an absolutely dedicated base. And

34:53

so what you're seeing in the lower

34:55

Biden approval rating is the disapproval of

34:58

a surprising number of Democrats and independents

35:02

where you don't see that same dissension within

35:04

the GOP towards Trump. And

35:06

so there's that disparity there. But

35:09

part of that, as you said early on,

35:11

is there's a lot of Trump voters who

35:13

simply don't know the facts about

35:15

what his scandals and

35:18

indictments and all these other things are about. As

35:20

we get closer to November, as these trials

35:23

are televised, or at least the verdicts

35:25

come out, whether it's the January 6

35:27

thing, hopefully gets back on track, the

35:30

trial in New York, in

35:34

the documents case in Florida, all these different pieces

35:36

start coming forward, it's going to be in the

35:38

news more. I suppose that even Fox News and

35:40

some of the right wing media is going to

35:42

have to cover some of that stuff. As that

35:44

comes to the forefront, you don't think that's going

35:46

to erode. I mean, there's been polls that say

35:49

if Trump were a convicted felon, some percentage

35:51

of his support would fall away. Yeah, but

35:53

you don't think it's going to be enough

35:55

to cause the party. Not within the

35:57

GOP. report

36:00

will fall away, particularly amongst independents, but

36:02

we have to realize this for the

36:04

MAGA voter and the MAGA adjacent voter,

36:08

anything that happens in the world, where do

36:10

they go to learn about it? Okay,

36:13

so let's say Trump is

36:15

convicted in the Manhattan case because that trial

36:17

looks like it may happen first. They

36:22

might get a news alert on their phone, Trump

36:24

convicted, and then let's suppose then

36:26

what? What the heck? I

36:28

got to turn into my trusted news source,

36:30

Sean Hannity, to figure out what this means.

36:33

Or I bet Mark Levin has thoughts on

36:35

this, right? And so this is how

36:38

the process works. They might get a news

36:40

alert or somebody says something that causes

36:42

some degree of alarm, and then they

36:44

turn to their trusted news source, and

36:47

their trusted news source says, this is total persecution,

36:49

it's proof that Trump is on the right track,

36:51

this is a banana republic stuff, I can't believe

36:53

it. And so this just happens

36:55

and happens and happens and happens. And

36:57

there's no better example of it than

36:59

January 6th. January 6th unfolds. If

37:02

you had polled MAGA voters before January

37:04

6th and said, would you

37:07

support Donald Trump if he tries to

37:09

violently overturn an election that he genuinely

37:11

lost? They would say,

37:13

no, no, are you kidding? No way.

37:16

Then he tries to violently overturn an

37:18

election he genuinely lost. And

37:20

guess who Republicans despise? Mitch McConnell and

37:22

Mike Pence. Yeah,

37:25

I don't know who said it. I don't

37:27

know who said it, but somebody commented that

37:29

the first party that pulls their candidate and

37:31

replaces them is going to be

37:33

the party that wins the election in

37:36

November. I'm with you. I don't

37:38

think either one is likely to pull their candidate. But

37:41

maybe nature will intervene and force one

37:44

party or the other's hand on this. And

37:46

we'll see. If not nature, then the

37:49

judicial system will be. Yeah,

37:51

exactly. Okay, let's transition

37:53

to a piece that you wrote earlier

37:55

this month, February 18th. You wrote a

37:57

column titled MAGA's violent threats are warping

37:59

like. in America. I think

38:03

especially for those of us who don't

38:05

live in stridently red parts of the

38:08

country, we may not recognize

38:10

this or maybe we get glimpses of it

38:12

on TV now and again but we it's

38:14

just not a lived reality. Talk about what

38:16

you mean by MAGA's violent threats. Yeah.

38:19

And we can look at that as

38:22

things that are happening to politicians or from

38:24

your own experience which was really vivid to

38:26

read about. So the

38:28

bottom line is if you have a

38:30

national voice against Trump

38:33

or you have

38:35

any local notoriety

38:38

or involvement in opposing MAGA,

38:41

there is a very good chance you're

38:43

going to face death threats and cyber

38:46

harassment and possibly attempted

38:48

physical intimidation. Just

38:50

a very good chance. And

38:54

you know everything we've seen this in

38:56

the politicians so or judges.

38:58

Judge Chutten who is hearing

39:00

the January 6th case and the federal January

39:02

6th case, she's been swatted. Jack

39:05

Smith who's the prosecutor, he's been swatted and

39:07

swatting is when someone made a fine move.

39:10

Yeah it's when someone makes a spoof

39:12

phone call saying you know

39:14

I'm Jack Smith and I just killed

39:16

my wife and I'm

39:19

gonna kill more people. And

39:21

then the police just come to

39:23

sin swarming on the location but

39:25

that was never Jack Smith. Nothing like that

39:28

ever happened. They might just be eating dinner

39:30

and then here come the cops just really

39:33

primed for violence and

39:36

it's extremely dangerous. There

39:38

was a young man was

39:40

killed in 2017 in Kansas I believe when he

39:43

was swatted over a gaming dispute. He walks out

39:45

on his front porch and he's just gunned down

39:47

by the police who were told

39:49

that a violent incident was unfolding. It

39:52

is so dangerous it's almost attempted

39:54

murder when someone does this.

39:57

And so they've been swatted. I know

39:59

a number of other people people who've been swatted. Mitt

40:01

Romney spends $5,000 a day on security to

40:05

protect his family. The Colorado

40:07

Supreme Court, I could just go on and

40:09

on, and you might say, well,

40:11

that's all national figures. Well, here

40:14

locally in this really prosperous suburb in

40:16

Nashville, there were doctors and

40:18

nurses who testified at local school board

40:20

meetings in support of masking in schools.

40:23

And regardless of what you think about masking in

40:25

schools, I know people get very emotional about that,

40:27

but no one who advocates it

40:29

should be subjected to someone screaming in their face,

40:32

we know who you are, we will find you.

40:36

I have people I know who run

40:39

for school board as Republicans

40:43

and oppose Moms for Liberty. So

40:45

they're not running as Democrats against

40:47

Republicans, they're running as Republican in

40:50

local races and they need security

40:53

because they're opposing somebody from Moms

40:55

for Liberty. So one of the

40:57

ironies of what you're describing is

41:00

an argument you will frequently hear from people who

41:03

are Christian nationalists or MAGA types

41:07

is that we Christians,

41:09

we who follow Jesus and who go to

41:11

church and who believe in the authority of

41:13

scripture, we are facing persecution

41:15

from liberals and Democrats and secularists and

41:17

they're out to get us and they're

41:19

out to get our families. And yet

41:21

the overwhelming number of stories I'm hearing

41:24

about genuine political persecution and threats of

41:26

violence against public figures or their families

41:29

are coming from Christian nationalists and

41:31

MAGA types. Yeah, yeah.

41:33

Since Trump was sworn in,

41:36

there has been an eight fold increase

41:38

in threats to members of Congress, an

41:41

eight fold increase in threats. Now, not all

41:44

of those are MAGA, okay, not all of

41:46

those are MAGA, but there's been an eight

41:48

fold increase. I have

41:50

talked to people, members of

41:52

Congress who have had FBI security

41:55

details around them for now going

41:57

on two to three years. because

42:00

again, members of MAGA. And

42:02

I do not want to say it's exclusively MAGA.

42:04

We saw the shooting at the baseball field. We're

42:07

a Bernie Sanders supporter, tried to kill a bunch of

42:09

Republican members of Congress. We saw

42:11

a person arrested for trying to kill Brett

42:13

Kavanaugh. We saw this riots in the summer

42:15

of 2020. So

42:18

it is not the case. This is all MAGA,

42:20

but it is absolutely

42:23

pervasive in

42:25

MAGA world. And so

42:27

what ends up happening is a lot of

42:29

people who want to raise their voice publicly,

42:33

they suddenly, and they have seen

42:35

it happen to other people that they receive

42:38

cyber harassment, threats, intimidation,

42:42

and it has a real chilling effect

42:45

at the local level. Because if

42:48

you want to assert yourself against MAGA,

42:50

you have to gird yourself for

42:53

something awful in

42:55

response. So I

42:57

know that you and your family have also been on the

42:59

receiving end of those kinds of threats. And I

43:02

imagine most people listening to this are like,

43:04

that's a world I don't live in. No

43:06

one's going to threaten me for my political

43:09

views, especially with physical violence. So

43:11

I want to talk about the broader

43:15

understanding of bullying

43:17

and threats and the chilling

43:19

effect that it has. Just

43:22

today, I was on a call and

43:24

I heard from Christian leaders talking about

43:26

how speaking not

43:28

even about Donald Trump, but just speaking

43:30

against some of the paranoia and fear

43:33

that's infecting churches results

43:35

in them getting threats. And it's

43:37

not just physical threats of physical

43:39

violence, it's threats of unemployment, economic

43:43

consequences, losing their ministry

43:45

positions, social banishment,

43:48

the fear that you're going to... So this comes

43:50

in different forms, but this

43:53

did not happen 15 or 20 years ago in our normal

43:58

political discourse. What

44:01

is the antidote to this beyond just the

44:04

physical violence of what's going on? But what

44:06

do you say to Christian leaders, school

44:09

officials, people who have

44:11

a voice and authority in their community

44:14

who are being bullied more

44:16

or less into silence by

44:19

the MAGA Right? Yeah. And,

44:21

you know, just to recenter around this,

44:24

like I've been involved in inter-Republican fights

44:26

before. I mean, I was a big,

44:28

my wife and I, we supported Mitt

44:30

Romney in 08 and 2012 in the

44:32

primary. And

44:34

then Santorum and Gingrich campaigns where there was

44:36

no love lost, right? In those disputes or

44:39

the Huckabee campaign in 08, McCain in 08.

44:43

But I didn't have to worry that the fact

44:45

that I was supporting Mitt Romney

44:48

versus John McCain or Mitt Romney versus

44:50

Rick Santorum meant that people are going

44:52

to come to my house or meant

44:54

that I was going to face people trying

44:56

to get me fired or bomb threats and

44:58

scares. Like I didn't, that

45:01

never crossed my mind. Right. But

45:03

with the MAGA movement, you have to think

45:05

through this through. And the way I would answer this

45:07

is neither

45:12

a republic nor a church

45:15

are maintained in a healthy state by

45:18

retreat or cowardice. And

45:20

so the bottom line is,

45:22

the bottom line is difficult as it

45:25

is, is if you want to protect

45:28

the church or protect our and

45:30

or protect our nation from

45:32

this malignant hatred, you have

45:35

to stand against it. And

45:37

that might look, and for different people in

45:39

different places, it looks like different things. I

45:42

mean, if you're, you know,

45:44

a person who doesn't have much of a public

45:46

platform, you have a vote, for

45:48

example, or you have whatever voice you have

45:51

in your own family and influence you have

45:53

with your own family and friends, and

45:56

you have to, you should exercise your voice.

46:00

Sky, there's a huge

46:02

difference between my inbox and my

46:04

Twitter feed. And

46:06

my inbox is full

46:08

of messages that say words like, thank

46:11

you. I appreciate you standing

46:13

up. I don't see how you take

46:15

all these slings and arrows, but I'm glad you're doing

46:17

it. And then the Twitter

46:19

feed is, he's horrible. He's terrible. He's

46:21

horrible. He's terrible. He's horrible. He's terrible.

46:24

And there

46:27

needs to be more of

46:30

the Twitter feed, the public facing

46:32

response to this stuff, because

46:35

these bullies gain power from the

46:37

perception that they're driving you from

46:40

the public square. It

46:42

just creates more incentive to be a

46:44

bully. It just creates more incentive to

46:46

attack. And I hate to say it.

46:48

We need more Americans willing to

46:50

be attacked by MAGA because

46:53

until that time, people won't

46:55

see really, truly honestly, how

46:58

much of a minority position the

47:00

hardcore MAGA position is. It

47:03

looks more majority than it is now because it

47:05

bullies people away from the public square. And

47:08

there's just no substitute for some gumption

47:11

and courage and resolve here. One

47:15

of the things that came up in the conversation

47:17

today I had was the reluctance

47:20

that many of us have to

47:22

publicly support those who are the

47:24

target of the bullies. And

47:29

for example, someone comes after you on Twitter

47:31

or social media about something you've said or

47:33

done, and you're just getting a pile on

47:35

by the MAGA side. I

47:37

might see that and go, oh,

47:39

poor David. I'm going to, I'll send you

47:41

a text going, you know, fight the good

47:44

fight, brother. Yeah. I'm with you, but I

47:46

won't necessarily jump in and defend you on

47:48

that social media site because I don't

47:50

want to deal with those crazy people. I want to stay out of

47:52

it. But that reluctance

47:54

to rally and support publicly

47:57

only feeds the

47:59

bullying. Um, so

48:01

what beyond just social media or people have a

48:03

public platform like you do What

48:06

does that look like in our communities? What does it

48:08

look like on a school board or in our church

48:10

or with uh, you know our neighbors? How

48:12

do we defend them when people are coming up to the

48:14

faces of doctors and nurses and saying we know where you

48:16

live And we're going to get you what do you do

48:19

in response to that? I mean if

48:21

you see something like that in happening

48:23

in front of you I would go stand with

48:25

the doctor like literally stand next to the doctor

48:29

And say i'm I

48:31

may not agree with him, but this is

48:33

totally unacceptable Now i'm not saying that somebody

48:35

who's very physically vulnerable or whatever should do

48:37

that But

48:39

if you're if you're a grown man

48:42

Go stand next to the doctor and

48:44

say this is totally out of bounds Totally

48:47

out of bounds and there were police there who are watching this happen.

48:49

Then I would turn to the police and I would say We're

48:52

getting really close here to actionable threats

48:56

Um, and so, you know, you're gonna have

48:58

to intervene if they're actionable threats, but

49:00

i'll give you another example A

49:02

dear friend of mine one of my best best friends Two-time

49:05

trump voter probably will vote for him again We

49:09

disagree on politics. I love him to death.

49:11

He He got

49:13

the covet vaccine and then one

49:15

day he posts on his social

49:18

media That he was

49:20

going to his second funeral in the

49:22

day of an unvaccinated covet patient and

49:25

he says Guys, i'm not

49:27

you know, i'm conservative i'm a conservative conservative,

49:29

but please get the vaccine I

49:32

I don't want to go to more funerals A

49:35

vaccine people have refused the vaccine and he

49:37

got gang tackled online

49:40

We'll stand up for him Like

49:43

seriously if he's your friend You

49:45

know and you know his heart stand up

49:47

for him. I'm just so tired of this

49:51

Mentality where everyone watches other people

49:53

get just destroyed and say well

49:55

that you know, that kind

49:58

of sucks for you, man You know Stand

50:00

up for people. There's

50:06

no other way through this. Everyone's waiting

50:09

for somebody to save them from this

50:11

moment. Is it going to be Judge Chutkin?

50:13

Is it going to be the Senate? Is it going to be

50:15

the Supreme Court? And look, I

50:17

think the Senate should have saved us from Trump. I think

50:20

the January 6th prosecutions are completely correct.

50:22

I think that Donald Trump should be

50:25

disqualified. But this idea

50:27

that we can just constantly punt to

50:30

other people our responsibility for this

50:32

culture and this country, and

50:35

then wring our hands when we

50:37

pun it to somebody who takes a fair catch

50:40

rather than trying to run with the ball.

50:44

I mean, the analogy is imperfect, but you get what

50:46

I'm saying. We just

50:48

can't do that anymore. Skye, we have to

50:50

be willing to stand up. And I know

50:52

it's hard, and I know it's inconvenient, and

50:54

I know it's stressful, and I know it's

50:56

trying. But do

50:58

you care about this outcome?

51:01

Do you care? If

51:03

you care, do something.

51:06

And if it's the smallest thing, if it's just

51:08

tweeting, if it's just

51:11

Facebooking and whatever, just

51:13

do something about this, guys. We

51:16

cannot sit back and lament it.

51:20

You have to defend this constitutional

51:22

republic. You have to defend

51:24

the church from wolves. You

51:28

have to. And we just

51:30

can't be in this mode of, well, God

51:32

bless you, David and Skye, for taking all

51:34

those slings and arrows. No,

51:37

that cannot be the answer. If that's your answer,

51:39

we're done. We're done. And

51:42

you can complain about it all day, but you are

51:44

part of the problem. It

51:46

reminds me of my wife, Amanda, who's

51:49

not a public voice

51:51

in any way. She doesn't go on social media. She

51:53

doesn't get involved in it, but she has a really,

51:55

really strong streak of justice in her. When

51:57

she sees something that's wrong, she can't help but speak up. years

52:00

ago, pre Trump years, she

52:03

told me, sorry about being in our public library here in

52:05

Wheaton. And she saw

52:07

a young girl, probably middle school

52:09

age girl who was wearing a hijab, and

52:12

an older man walked past her and said

52:14

something really derogatory. And my wife heard this

52:16

and was just like having none of it

52:18

and had to intervene and defend this girl

52:20

and make this man know

52:22

that what he said wasn't okay. But like, that,

52:25

that's the instinct that needs to

52:27

pervade more of our communities. Yes,

52:30

in this, in this moment. But

52:33

I want to talk about our political leaders

52:35

a little bit because you mentioned

52:37

in the article, someone in Congress who

52:40

decided not to vote

52:42

to certify the election results in 2020, because they

52:45

were a Republican because they were afraid

52:47

if they didn't go along with Trump's

52:50

big lie, there would

52:52

be threats, there were threats against this Congress

52:55

representative and their family. And so

52:57

fear basically drove them in line

52:59

with the president. Yeah. And more

53:01

recently, we saw that there was

53:03

an unbelievably comprehensive immigration

53:05

bill that would have secured the

53:07

southern border and changed the asylum

53:09

laws and gone a long way

53:11

to solve the crisis that's occurring

53:13

right now, had bipartisan support,

53:16

had supportive Republicans in the Senate had

53:18

the support of President Biden. It's

53:21

the number one issue Republicans say needs to be

53:23

solved in this country. And

53:26

Donald Trump spiked it killed

53:28

it because he wanted to be able to run

53:30

on that issue in the election this year. And

53:32

you saw all kinds of Republicans fall in line.

53:36

I mean, is it just cowardice? Is it

53:40

is it the fact that they are valuing their

53:42

political career ahead of the country and ahead of

53:44

what's right? And well, how do you what

53:47

do you attribute that behavior

53:49

to where they refuse to do what they know

53:51

to be good and right and true in

53:54

order to fall in line with Donald Trump? Is it

53:56

fear of retribution? Is it fear of losing their their

53:59

seat? Yeah,

54:01

you know, I don't

54:05

want to use the C word cowardice too much

54:08

because I do think there's a difference between cowardice

54:11

and ambition. So

54:13

I think for a lot of these folks, it was ambition. You

54:16

know, I mean, it's not that

54:18

they were cowards in the sense of I

54:20

know the right thing and

54:22

I'm going to choose the wrong thing. I think

54:24

it was more their competing values, my

54:27

personal advancement and

54:31

doing the right thing in this one instance. And

54:34

what they what they came down

54:36

to was my personal advancement is the highest

54:38

priority. And because what people

54:40

do is they fool themselves into thinking they're

54:42

indispensable people. So they say, you know,

54:45

if I don't if I sacrifice

54:48

myself right here and now in

54:50

a post Trump in a futile

54:52

gesture, then I'll be replaced

54:54

after a primary campaign by somebody worse.

54:58

And so you need me, you need me. So it's

55:00

this sort of ambition aspect, this

55:02

sort of sense of inflated sense of self

55:04

worth and importance. When

55:07

the reality is you would have

55:09

actually been much more important historically

55:11

speaking and much more valuable historically

55:13

speaking if you'd stood. And

55:17

a lot of people, their ambition and self

55:19

regard is so overwhelming that

55:21

they convince themselves that there is a

55:23

greater good and their

55:26

continued presence in

55:28

the public sphere. And

55:30

this is endemic. I mean, this, you know, I

55:32

had a friend of mine who was talking to

55:34

a Tennessee state legislator who has

55:37

gone from being a quite responsible individual to

55:39

essentially like a mini me of Marjorie Taylor

55:41

Greene. And the

55:43

question was, why are you doing this? And

55:46

the answer was, if I don't do this, I'll

55:48

be replaced by an actual Marjorie Taylor Greene type.

55:51

And the answer was, but if you're acting

55:53

exactly the same way, what's the

55:56

point? What's the difference here? Yeah,

55:59

I. I apologize if I've been a

56:01

little too passionate

56:04

about this, but I'm

56:07

just over this idea

56:09

that says, man, somebody's

56:11

got to save this country as

56:14

long as it's not me. Right.

56:16

And this relates a little bit to what we were

56:18

talking about with President Biden and his refusal

56:21

to step down. We have

56:23

come so far from the example of

56:25

George Washington, who after

56:28

defeating the Brits in the

56:30

Revolutionary War, marches into

56:32

the Constitutional Congress and lays down

56:34

his sword and surrenders power and

56:36

says, oh, I'm done. I'm going

56:38

home back to Mount Vernon when everyone assumed he

56:40

would step up and just take command

56:42

of the country. And then when he becomes president and

56:45

is elected after two terms, there was no constitutional

56:48

limitation on presidential terms at that point.

56:50

He voluntarily stepped away. Anyone who's watched

56:53

Hamilton has seen that famous song

56:55

where it teaches them how to say

56:57

goodbye. We

56:59

had that example early in the

57:01

Republic of very powerful, admirable,

57:04

virtuous men who

57:06

laid down power for

57:08

the sake of the good of the country. And

57:11

where are those people? Like, they're just

57:13

not there. All right, before we leave

57:15

that topic, I want to shift it

57:17

back to the local church. Because

57:20

some of the interactions I've had

57:22

with pastors, it parallels it a little

57:24

bit. I don't think it's quite as ambitious or

57:26

as duplicitous as we

57:28

see in Congress right now. But

57:31

there tends to be this mindset of, I'm

57:33

just going to keep my head down. I'm going to

57:35

keep my mouth shut because no good

57:38

will come of me speaking about these things.

57:41

And I need to stay in

57:43

this position so that I can shepherd people toward

57:45

the gospel. And therefore, I need to be quiet. I

57:47

talked to one pastor recently who said that a

57:50

lot of people in his town

57:52

have gone to three churches

57:54

that are very MAGA in their outlook. And

57:56

he said, we've lost a

57:59

significant percentage. of our people to those churches.

58:01

But he said on the bright side, we have

58:03

replaced them and they've actually grown. And I said,

58:05

okay, well, what have you done to do

58:08

that? And he's like, we just keep our mouths

58:10

shut. We just do not talk about anything that

58:12

could be understood to be political. And

58:14

people like our church because it's an oasis from

58:16

that stuff. And I didn't say anything

58:18

because it wasn't kind of replaced me. But I'm like,

58:20

is that the faithful response

58:22

right now to say nothing? And to just

58:25

keep your head down because this storm will

58:27

pass. And we all thought it

58:29

would pass after 2016. We thought maybe after 2020, it

58:33

didn't. It's still

58:35

here. What do you

58:37

say to the pastor whose posture is, I'm just

58:39

not going to talk about this and

58:42

it'll pass? One

58:44

thing we have to realize is this just

58:46

might not pass, at least

58:48

not anytime soon. I did a podcast

58:51

with Curtis Chang, our Good

58:54

Faith podcast with Curtis Chang several months

58:56

ago. And the question was, when

58:58

will things get back to normal? And

59:01

I said, one thing you have to understand,

59:03

this is one aspect of normal in America.

59:07

There is not sort of this

59:09

default normal in America where everyone

59:11

is sort of relatively harmonious, politics

59:13

are conducted within normal bounds of

59:15

morality, etc. We can

59:17

go and we have proven that we can

59:19

go decades into

59:21

dysfunction and

59:23

decades into darkness. I mean, you

59:26

look at the positive example of, say,

59:28

for example, George Washington and laying down

59:31

a sword or Abraham Lincoln

59:33

in the way that he wanted

59:35

to, his vision

59:38

for what America could be after the Civil

59:40

War. And then you

59:42

roll into Andrew Johnson and the end

59:44

of Reconstruction and the

59:46

Compromise of 1877 where small

59:49

men who had

59:52

deficient moral visions essentially

59:55

threw millions and millions of Americans

59:57

under the bus for almost a

59:59

hundred years. years with

1:00:01

their decision making. That's how consequential

1:00:04

small people can be in the life of

1:00:06

a nation. And so I think

1:00:09

the question is, who

1:00:12

do you want to be in the story right now?

1:00:15

Do you want to be one of the

1:00:17

ones who like so many other people when

1:00:19

America started to veer off track were

1:00:21

upset about it? But

1:00:23

if you look back in the history, where is

1:00:26

any record that they did anything versus

1:00:29

those people who saw us going off

1:00:31

the track and regardless

1:00:33

of whether they succeeded, they're recorded

1:00:35

for all time as standing against

1:00:38

it. And

1:00:40

I think that's an incredibly valuable. Now

1:00:42

that doesn't mean that a pastor needs

1:00:44

to have a position on the efficacy

1:00:46

of mRNA vaccines, right? Right, right, right.

1:00:48

I feel very bad for pastors who've

1:00:51

been put in a position where all

1:00:53

of a sudden their congregates want to

1:00:55

know what their position is on mRNA

1:00:57

vaccines, on the effectiveness of various kinds

1:00:59

of masks, on aid to

1:01:01

Ukraine, on the integrity of the 2020

1:01:03

election. You

1:01:05

don't have to have opinions on all of that.

1:01:08

Right. But the character formation

1:01:10

part of the job is

1:01:13

not optional. And

1:01:15

that really, that kind of goes sky back to some

1:01:18

of the stuff we talk about in the after party,

1:01:20

which is the curriculum that

1:01:22

Curtis and Russell Moore and I did to

1:01:24

try to reform the

1:01:26

way the church approaches politics. This

1:01:30

Micah 6-8 formulation, act justly,

1:01:32

love mercy, walk humbly. They're

1:01:34

not optional, not any one

1:01:36

of the three things. Kindness,

1:01:39

humility, justice, they're not optional.

1:01:43

And in pursuing all three at the same

1:01:45

time, it's very difficult. And that's

1:01:48

exactly what pastors can help us do, is they

1:01:51

don't necessarily tell us what exactly

1:01:53

justice looks like in any given

1:01:55

situation, but we can actually

1:01:58

really get a lot of instruction What it means,

1:02:00

how does it mean to operate with kindness and

1:02:02

mercy and humility in the public square?

1:02:05

That would be in the pastor's wheelhouse. And

1:02:09

just communicating that to the American

1:02:11

church would represent a culture change.

1:02:14

Yeah, I think about some

1:02:17

of the Republicans who have taken principled positions in

1:02:19

the last number of years, explicitly

1:02:22

Mitt Romney and Adam Kinzinger. I've

1:02:24

both heard them talk about how

1:02:27

they came to a point of

1:02:29

having to stand before God one

1:02:31

day and give an account for

1:02:33

what they've done. And

1:02:35

that thought of that

1:02:37

reality pushed them to do the right thing

1:02:40

and do the hard thing at the time.

1:02:43

And I

1:02:45

think church leaders have to have that moment

1:02:47

as well, where they need to do a

1:02:49

lot of soul searching and ask, okay, am

1:02:52

I equivocating on this because I'm genuinely

1:02:54

trying to be faithful and seek the

1:02:56

wise way to shepherd these people toward

1:02:58

God? And therefore, I need to be

1:03:00

careful about what I say and don't

1:03:02

say in that faithful pursuit or am

1:03:05

I equivocating because I'm afraid

1:03:07

and I'm worried that I'm

1:03:09

going to face unpleasant consequences for

1:03:11

speaking up? It may

1:03:14

appear the same on the outside. You might be careful

1:03:16

in what you say and how you say it. And

1:03:18

it's very different when it's coming from a posture of

1:03:20

faithfulness and wisdom versus a posture of fear and

1:03:22

self-preservation. But to come to that

1:03:24

place of self-reflection and be honest with oneself

1:03:26

about what's leading me to the actions

1:03:29

I'm taking or not taking and

1:03:32

to have a clean conscience before God in that

1:03:34

is really hard. And a known from the outside

1:03:36

can assume what's going on.

1:03:40

But I've had too many conversations with church leaders

1:03:42

where the basic attitude has been, I'm going to

1:03:45

get through this, my church is going to get

1:03:47

through this and we're going to get through it

1:03:50

by pretending it's not happening. And

1:03:52

like I don't think that's – You're consenting. Look at

1:03:54

it. I think the way to look at it is

1:03:57

if you are silent in this moment,

1:04:00

you're consenting to this moment. And

1:04:02

if you're saying, well, I'm not going to speak

1:04:04

unless I can be guaranteed that I'm going to

1:04:07

get some kind of positive response or I'm going

1:04:09

to have that the cost will not out the

1:04:11

benefit will outweigh the cost. That's not the calculation

1:04:13

we're in. That's not

1:04:15

the calculation. I mean, you

1:04:18

know, I, I want

1:04:21

to be very careful in this analogy, this

1:04:24

guy, but I have

1:04:26

been haunted by my Confederate ancestors.

1:04:29

And so I, my, both sides

1:04:32

of my family, my dad's

1:04:34

side, my mom's side, my dad's side, Confederate

1:04:36

officers, colonels, Lieutenant Colonel, et cetera. My mom's

1:04:38

side, Confederate enlisted, all

1:04:41

Confederates. And

1:04:44

I have, you know, ever since I began

1:04:46

to be, learn more about the civil war,

1:04:48

learn, just learning more as an adult human.

1:04:51

I've asked myself if

1:04:53

you took 2020 David and popped me in 1861, would

1:04:55

I have the fortitude to

1:04:59

say no? Yeah. And, and

1:05:02

this is something that I've thought a lot about it

1:05:04

when my whole tribe is saying yes to something that's

1:05:06

wrong, would I have the fortitude to say no? Okay.

1:05:10

I am not comparing MAGA

1:05:12

to the Confederacy. They're

1:05:14

not the same thing. In

1:05:17

the degree of harm. I

1:05:19

mean, you name it. And not the same thing. However,

1:05:23

I feel like the MAGA movement, particularly

1:05:25

within the church is a perversion of

1:05:27

church teaching and it's

1:05:30

a lot of my tribe going that way.

1:05:34

And so for me, it really was kind

1:05:36

of a defining moment.

1:05:39

It's not the same degree. It's not the

1:05:41

same severity, but my whole

1:05:43

tribe or 81 plus percent

1:05:46

are saying yes to this guy that I

1:05:48

really think we should say no to. What

1:05:51

do you do in that circumstance? And I think in

1:05:53

that circumstance, you have to say no. And

1:05:56

you have to say no. And you say it with kindness

1:05:59

and mercy. and humility with openness to arguments

1:06:01

that you might be wrong, but you gotta

1:06:03

say no. Yeah, regardless

1:06:05

if it's MAGA or the Confederacy or

1:06:07

any mass populist movement,

1:06:09

it's really hard to swim against

1:06:11

the current. Oh, so hard. It's

1:06:13

incredibly hard, and all the more

1:06:15

reason why we need godly women and

1:06:18

men who model that for us.

1:06:20

So, David, thank you for

1:06:22

your wisdom and your courage in all this,

1:06:24

and for continuing to write such insightful pieces.

1:06:26

We'll link to the stuff that we referenced,

1:06:29

and have you back next month for another

1:06:31

French Friday. I look forward

1:06:33

to it, Sky. Thank you. French

1:06:37

Friday is a production of Holy

1:06:39

Post Media, featuring David French and

1:06:41

me, Sky Jatani. Music and theme

1:06:43

song by Phil Vischer. This

1:06:46

show is made possible by Holy Post patrons.

1:06:49

To find out how you can become

1:06:51

a Holy Post patron and to find

1:06:53

more common good Christian content, go to

1:06:55

holypost.com. Thank

1:06:59

you.