0:00

You're listening

0:02

to the human upgrade with Dave Asbury. You're

0:06

listening to the human upgrade with with

0:08

Dave Asbury. Guys,

0:11

this is Dan the

0:13

blue Zones Dave has written

0:15

a really influential book by going

0:18

around and saying, well, where are their pockets of long

0:20

lived people? And what do they do? What

0:22

can we learn from that? And I

0:24

just thought it was really cool approach. So

0:27

It's about time. We have a conversation. So

0:29

thank you. Thank you. Thank you for coming on the

0:31

show.

0:32

I'm delighted. So if I could just put

0:34

a finer point on the on the introduction,

0:36

you know what I mean? People I

0:38

I write for National Geographic. It's one of

0:40

the hats I wear. But for

0:43

the for the Blue Zones it wasn't so

0:45

much about me. I I led

0:47

a very big team of people.

0:54

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I

1:59

write the

1:59

National Geographic. It's one of the hats

2:02

I wear. But for the

2:04

for the Blue project, it wasn't so much

2:06

about me. I I led a

2:08

very big team of people. The

2:10

first team of of experts

2:13

we use were demographers and

2:15

we literally parse through worldwide census

2:18

data to identify demographically

2:21

confirmed areas where people are living

2:24

measurably longer. So it wasn't just

2:26

sort of the hearsay of VELCABOMBA

2:28

Valley or hunt of hunt of

2:30

Valley of Pakistan. These were these

2:32

were real places that we before

2:35

we even began

2:37

to guess at what these people are

2:39

doing, we had confirmed their ages

2:41

of with a pre expedition. We

2:44

found five of these blue Zones. And

2:47

then I brought another wave of experts.

2:49

They're mostly epidemiologists anthropologists,

2:52

medical researchers. And the

2:54

theory was because

2:56

only about twenty percent of how long

2:58

we live as a population in

3:01

the developed world is dictated by genes.

3:03

The other eighty percent is something else.

3:05

Based on that assumption, then we went

3:07

to all five of these areas that I've been doing it

3:10

now for twenty years to find the common

3:12

denominators or the correlates, the

3:14

things that seem to be happening

3:16

in all five blue zones And

3:19

from that, distill some insights on how

3:21

we might be able to live longer.

3:23

And the value proposition I have,

3:25

Dave, is not that I don't pretend

3:27

people can live to a hundred and twenty. I

3:30

think we're ways from that. Theoretically,

3:32

I think we can't but the average

3:35

maximum life expectancy of

3:37

the human species at the current

3:39

level of science

3:40

in the developed world is

3:42

about ninety five.

3:45

What average max mean?

3:47

Like, what does that mean for ninety five? That

3:49

means if we did everything right,

3:53

and you're an average person, we

3:56

should be able to make it to ninety five. The average

3:58

person could make it to ninety five.

3:59

Okay. Well, but remember you have

4:02

you have outliers in one extreme

4:04

or who, you know, will run marathons and

4:06

take

4:06

all the right vitamins and be dead

4:08

at fifty by some weird cancer. And

4:10

then you have people who can drink

4:12

a fifth of liquor and smoke cigarettes and

4:14

they make it to hundred. And but

4:16

those are, you know, tiny fraction. But

4:19

most of us within two standard deviations

4:21

of the mean, the capacity

4:23

of our human machine

4:25

right now

4:27

is ninety five. The

4:30

potential, you know, and I know your work

4:34

pushes those boundaries. And theoretically,

4:36

I think it's possible, but we're not seeing

4:38

it yet.

4:40

I absolutely hear

4:43

what you're saying.

4:44

the

4:45

Yeah. Today, if you just kinda do

4:48

some of the stuff and you live in average life,

4:50

yeah, that's there. And I

4:52

have zero evidence that

4:55

a hundred and eighty, which is my, you know, my

4:57

minimum acceptable goal, is

5:00

the right number. All I did is

5:02

I looked at you know, when I look at our

5:04

outliers, We've got

5:06

probably a hundred and twenty as

5:09

is the oldest living human. And by the way, is

5:11

that a real number? Do you believe that one?

5:13

Yeah. Marie Camet,

5:15

yes, I do. I know there's some controversy

5:18

that she may have been assuming her daughter's

5:20

identity. she made it to a hundred and twenty

5:22

two and five months and marked the,

5:24

you know, outer limit. But, you know, you

5:27

you look at the number of supercentinaries, the

5:29

people who make a hundred and

5:31

tenor, it's not growing as a

5:33

proportion of the population. So

5:35

we, you know, we fall off -- Yeah. --

5:38

we fall off -- We're It's

5:40

somewhere around one ten or or one twenty.

5:42

And all I did is I said, I wanna do fifty percent

5:45

better than our best outlier Dave.

5:47

and use a whole bunch of technology in every

5:49

other learning that we have and see

5:51

what happens. And, you know, there's a

5:53

great chance that all die trying but I'm

5:55

gonna have fun doing it and hopefully learn a few things.

5:58

Right? There there's I didn't see a lot of downside

5:59

for that kind of a goal. And

6:02

there

6:02

isn't. And by the way, you can make it.

6:04

And if you look at, you know, life expectancy

6:07

for American men,

6:08

nineteen hundred was forty. You

6:11

know, we're now up to about seventy five, which

6:13

is almost a doubling. So, you know,

6:15

if we double it again, your hundred and eighty

6:17

is definitely within reach. But

6:19

it's probably by

6:22

technology or intervention.

6:23

We don't we we we

6:25

may be

6:27

merging towards it, but we don't know what it

6:29

is yet. You know, the the big the

6:31

big reason we're living so much longer now

6:34

is because of penicillin and

6:36

vaccines. you know, that created the

6:38

biggest because what used to kill us,

6:40

you know, in the before about nineteen thirty

6:43

was infectious disease. you

6:45

step on a nail and you'd be dead in

6:47

two weeks. Most people

6:49

died in World War Zones of infection,

6:52

not a bullet wounds. And, you

6:54

know, and Penicillin came along and all of

6:56

a sudden, boom, we had a way to deal with a lot of

6:58

the infectious diseases and then antibiotics.

7:01

you could foreseen that somebody would

7:03

Discovering orange mold in the connection between

7:06

that and increasing our

7:08

immunity. Likewise, you

7:10

know, there'll probably be some genetic

7:12

intervention, you know, some CRISPR

7:16

overture, which may

7:18

add that, but my work Dave mostly

7:20

focuses on, alright, here's,

7:23

these are real people living right

7:25

now who are living about ten

7:27

years longer than we are, biologically

7:31

younger at every decade, probably a decade

7:33

younger by a lot than their coronavirus and

7:37

they're suffering a fifth

7:39

Dave of heart disease, a tenth

7:41

Dave of diabetes, Zones in

7:43

one case about a tenth of what rate

7:46

of dementia. So I'm saying, okay, here

7:48

are these real people what

7:50

are they doing to achieve healthy ninety

7:53

five, occasionally a hundred?

7:55

And then, you know, if the intervention comes

7:57

along in our lifetime, you'll be

7:59

ready for it. You know, your body because the

8:01

first interventions will probably just slow

8:03

aging, not reverse it.

8:05

So you wanna be in this best shape you can

8:08

right now. And

8:09

that's kind of a a Ray Kurzweil approach.

8:12

What, you know, Ray's perspective is that, you know, singularities

8:15

here, you just have to last long enough. And, you know,

8:17

there's a bunch of people on that kind

8:19

of a train. You know, you're gonna upload yourself to the Internet

8:21

and live forever that way. And do

8:23

you think that's a kind of life extension? Are

8:25

you into that?

8:27

Not really. Gonna

8:28

freeze your head when you die? I

8:31

think I'll do that, actually. You are.

8:33

Are you on the list? Is that like a necklace for

8:35

the headfreezers? I

8:36

haven't noticed, but I just this

8:38

is a necklace for a coin iPhone in Jerusalem.

8:42

Oh, cool. But

8:45

it's Well,

8:47

we I mean, I think the best chance

8:50

that, you know, you can be reincarnated

8:53

as to to freeze yourself, much better chance

8:55

than I think, you know, cremation

8:57

or, you know, having the worms take you

8:59

over. So that's kind of a fun way to do.

9:01

I have several friends who are doing that right

9:03

now. III feel like I'm far

9:06

away enough far enough

9:08

away from death that I haven't really started making

9:10

arrangements yet, but who knows?

9:12

That is so interesting. It's

9:14

it's a rare treat to be able to talk with another

9:17

radical long term life thinker

9:20

and to be able to go deep on stuff like that.

9:22

You know, I I wrote a cover story for National

9:24

Geographic also on happiness. and a book

9:27

called the Blue Zones of happiness where I

9:29

took a data based approach to

9:31

what

9:31

drives happiness and most of what brings

9:33

true happiness what

9:35

people think bring true happiness is misguided

9:38

or just plain wrong. But one of the

9:40

happy coincidences of

9:42

the blue zones, longest of women

9:44

are in Okinawa, longest of men are

9:46

in the highlands of Sardinia,

9:48

the island of Ikaria, Greece,

9:50

off the coast of Turkey, the Nacoya

9:52

Peninsula, Costa Rica, and among the

9:54

seven day Adventists, those places are

9:57

in the top quintile, the happiest places.

9:59

So

9:59

unlike sort of, you know,

10:01

these Silicon Valley billionaires who

10:03

are, you know, super busy and

10:06

spending all their money on these heroic

10:08

interventions in metformin and

10:10

and testosterone and none

10:12

of which by the way have proven to

10:14

stop slower reverse aging and there's some

10:17

controversy The

10:19

methods that or the insights that have harvested

10:21

from Blue Zones are not only getting these people

10:24

an extra ten years, but

10:26

they're also happy. And

10:28

so, you know, in the same way that you're

10:31

taking this sort of hundred

10:33

and eighty year approach to

10:36

or after life approach that

10:38

also makes you happier right

10:40

now. It's we

10:42

share that that, I guess, parallel

10:45

philosophy. Howard Bauchner:

10:47

We do. And happiness

10:49

matters so much that

10:52

most people, if you were to say, do you

10:54

want ninety happy years or a hundred

10:56

shitty years? They're going to

10:58

say, I want ninety happy years. So

11:01

it it's it's almost the opposite

11:03

of the Amazon selling strategy. It's

11:06

about quality over quantity.

11:08

But if you can get both, you'd like both. but

11:10

buying a whole bunch of cheap crap doesn't

11:12

actually it's not very good strategy for the environment

11:15

or for your house or for anything else. And that's

11:17

why I think there's a rebellion against cheap plastic

11:19

disposable crap. You don't want a cheap plastic

11:21

disposable life either. And

11:25

so I I love it that you're studying what they're

11:27

doing.

11:28

With the other go

11:30

ahead.

11:31

Well, I'm just seeing that longevity and

11:33

happiness right now are so interlaced. You

11:35

can't pull the two apart grow. The same things

11:38

that are driving longevity also

11:40

drive happiness, getting enough sleep,

11:42

having a sense of purpose, being socially

11:45

connected, in having

11:47

low stress. These things, they

11:50

go hand in hand. In fact, we know

11:53

that if you can manage your life

11:55

to be in the top quintile of the highest

11:57

levels of subjective well-being or

11:59

life satisfaction,

11:59

it's worth about

12:02

six years of life expectancy over

12:04

being in that

12:05

the bottom six. So Zones

12:07

of the best longevity tolerance

12:10

is happiness. And there are lots

12:12

of things we know that you can do

12:14

that stack your your deck in favor

12:16

of happiness. In

12:19

fact, Zones of the

12:21

the best definitions of hell you

12:23

could have is to say

12:26

an unhappy, very long life.

12:28

Right? Like, why why would

12:30

you want that? So you you make

12:32

a great point about happiness.

12:35

the

12:36

Dave you ever done work with Dean Ornish,

12:38

like, the the super low fat guy?

12:41

He's

12:41

a he's good friend of mine.

12:44

So so when when he did his

12:46

original work, he'd said, well, guys, we're gonna

12:48

do lifestyle and meditation interventions

12:51

and a diet. Right?

12:53

But then he

12:55

talks about the diet as

12:58

as having caused the changes even though

13:00

it looks like lifestyle meditation in other

13:02

studies had Dave changes he was describing

13:04

to the diet. Like, he he had the

13:06

the mix of those two so intermingled that

13:08

statistically it was hard to prove that

13:11

eating, you know, a very high starch, high

13:13

sugar, low fat diet was

13:17

positive for that. in your happiness

13:20

books or happiness research,

13:23

how do you break apart the

13:25

value of community, strong

13:27

social structure, getting enough

13:29

sleep from all

13:31

the other variables like the sunshine angle,

13:34

the sun minerals in the water. I mean, it could be

13:36

anything. that's a conundrum for

13:38

all kinds of aging research. Howard Bauchner:

13:40

You know, you look for correlations. The

13:43

way that happiness research, which

13:45

is done worldwide, largely

13:47

by Gal, but also the Latino barometer

13:49

and the Euro barometer, they ask

13:52

people to imagine themselves on

13:55

a scale of one to ten with ten being their

13:57

best of life and one being

13:59

their worst.

14:00

And then they ask them seventy five other

14:03

questions about how often they

14:05

socialize in the level of their health, their

14:07

BMI, their religion, their

14:09

income level, their sex, their age, etcetera,

14:11

etcetera. and then through regression

14:13

analysis, which I'm sure you're familiar with.

14:15

You can find out exactly what

14:18

things most strongly correlate

14:20

with people reporting a very

14:22

high level of happiness. And when you do that

14:24

at a worldwide level, you get

14:26

a pretty strong correlation. And

14:29

I don't try to draw positive relationship

14:31

between these two, I like to

14:34

phrase it in in stacking

14:36

the deck.

14:37

So that's something that's very highly

14:40

correlated with high life satisfaction.

14:42

If you do it, there's no downside to

14:45

it, but it it

14:47

stacks it puts more aces in your

14:50

your life's blackjack deck in that,

14:52

you know, you too will will

14:55

You know, and and some of those things we know that

14:57

work are having five good

14:59

friends you can count on on a bad day.

15:02

you know, your the quality of your social

15:05

interactions and connections, the number one

15:08

driver by a margin. of how

15:10

happy you are. So when you say to yourself,

15:12

well, I wanna be happy. Should

15:15

I go on beat read a bunch of

15:17

positive psychology class books?

15:20

Or should I take a Tony

15:22

Robbins class? Or should I work

15:24

my ass off and make another hundred thousand

15:26

dollars this your knowing

15:29

that none of those will significantly add

15:31

your long term happiness still

15:33

starts to drive you towards maybe

15:36

things that do, like, you know,

15:38

being generous and

15:39

remembering your friend's birthday

15:41

and really nurturing

15:42

friendships. I mean, that that's the

15:44

stuff that really works. and it's you there's

15:46

not I can't sell you anything. You know,

15:49

and and marketers don't necessarily

15:51

seize that because there's not not a lot of money

15:54

in it. But we know, statistically

15:56

speaking, it's one of the strongest things you can

15:58

do.

16:00

Right. Just having those having those

16:02

connections. And

16:05

-- Yeah. -- it it's funny. When you're

16:07

looking at at kind of I

16:09

don't know if isolated pockets is the right word,

16:11

but but your in your research, you

16:14

came across intact

16:16

communities that that that

16:18

aren't had defined boundaries so

16:20

you could find where the suprasensinarians

16:23

are. like this, very popular

16:25

because I get in trouble with the

16:27

we don't assert there are more supersentinarians

16:30

there. The -- Okay. -- the the what

16:33

we found areas that has the

16:35

lowest rate of middle aged mortality.

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Oh, I wanna stop you there because I get

18:47

trouble with the

18:48

we don't assert there are more supersentinarians

18:51

there. The -- Yeah. -- the the

18:53

what

18:54

we found areas that has the

18:56

lowest rate of middle aged mortality.

18:59

And otherwise, they're getting that age

19:01

of the age ninety five without chronic

19:03

disease. you know, a

19:06

fifth Dave of chronic disease that we suffer.

19:08

And necessarily, because more

19:10

people are hitting that ninety five, there's

19:14

also more people bleeding into their hundreds.

19:17

So I'm not saying

19:19

that these people have greater

19:21

physical capacity or greater genes

19:23

than us. They're living a longer time

19:26

because they're avoiding the diseases that

19:28

foreshorten our lives.

19:32

Now

19:33

some of the some

19:36

of the the reflect almost

19:38

everything that I've heard about you from

19:41

the research Dave done just over the years

19:43

has been that you're sort of targeting people

19:45

lived a long time. But so from the beginning,

19:48

the target was just to find,

19:50

like, a higher health standard in middle but

19:53

wasn't to find people who were living longer.

19:55

That's just kind of sensationalism from the press.

19:57

Well,

19:58

I mean, they they all places that live, movies

20:01

play people live ten years longer,

20:03

but

20:03

it's not in obsession with centinarians. And

20:06

some That was not a target. That

20:09

wasn't the target. But, you know, not

20:11

coincidentally, in Okinawa,

20:14

you have a population of

20:17

the it's especially the women, not the men

20:19

in Okinawa, but you've for

20:21

women over sixty, that cohort,

20:24

you'll find about thirty

20:26

times more of them reach eight to one hundred

20:28

than a similar cohort in the United

20:30

States. And in Sardinia,

20:33

they have about ten times more

20:35

male centenarians per thousand

20:37

people, or per hundred thousand

20:40

then you would expect to see in a similar population

20:42

in the United States. But

20:45

that's just because they're not dying

20:47

younger, they're not prematurely dying

20:50

of heart disease, diabetes, certain

20:52

types of cancer and dementia. Howard

20:54

Bauchner:

20:54

Okay, that that makes a lot of sense.

20:58

For our listeners, what did you find?

21:00

Like like, what what are these people

21:02

doing to live longer? You don't think it's genetic

21:04

because you have multiple pockets around the world.

21:07

So is it, like, fifty percent high,

21:09

fifty percent happiness? Is

21:11

it, you know, seventy thirty? Like,

21:13

like, what what's the secret formula?

21:16

Well, I'll talk about diet

21:18

in a minute. And

21:20

have this new book, The Blue Zone American

21:22

Kitchen, which I'd like to talk about but Oh, yeah.

21:24

It looks like I've got a should grab my copy. It's right

21:27

over there. I unpacked it. I found it. Yeah.

21:30

Yeah. So

21:31

so

21:32

Okay. Bottom line,

21:36

in none of these blue Zones, do people

21:38

try to live a long time? None of them are

21:40

pursuing diets there's

21:42

not gyms, there's not exercise

21:45

programs, they're not calling eight hundred numbers

21:47

to buy supplements. They

21:49

just live their lives. But

21:52

the big insight is they

21:54

don't pursue health and longevity,

21:56

but rather it insulates

21:59

they their

21:59

micro decisions on

22:02

a day to day hour to hour basis

22:04

are marginally Buettner. So

22:07

they're nudged into moving every

22:09

twenty minutes or so because they live in environments

22:12

where every time they go to work or a friend's

22:14

house, or out to eat at the cajun's

22:16

a walk. They have gardens

22:18

out back. Like, I know you do. You know, I was

22:20

watching your great kale ornament today.

22:26

They have their houses aren't

22:28

full of mechanical conveniences. So

22:30

they're still doing house work by

22:32

hand and kitchen work by hand and yard

22:35

work by hand. The

22:37

option to be lonely isn't

22:39

there because if if you're not showing

22:41

up to church or the

22:43

local party somebody's pounding on your

22:45

door, the cheapest most

22:49

accessible and most socially accepted

22:52

food over time. And by the way,

22:54

the most delicious has been whole food

22:56

plant based. out

22:58

to unpack the diet a little bit more,

23:01

but that's mostly what we've been eating. And

23:03

purpose comes with mother's milk.

23:06

There's vocabulary for purpose,

23:08

so you were talking about the corrosive nature

23:11

of stress. For a lot of

23:13

Americans, it wakes up it comes

23:15

from waking up every morning and, you

23:17

know, not knowing what you're gonna do with your life

23:19

or if there's somebody gonna take care of you.

23:21

This is an initial in Blue Zones because you

23:23

have a strong sense of purpose and you're surrounded

23:26

by a family that's gonna take care of

23:28

you till your hundred and five. And

23:30

and and then and so, you

23:32

know, these are the things that I assert

23:34

we can learn from, and we ought to be paying

23:36

attention to not

23:38

only if, you know, you Dave a family

23:41

and you want your family to thrive, but

23:43

also if you're a government and

23:45

you're interested in lowering healthcare

23:47

costs and raising the general well-being of

23:50

the people who voted you into office.

23:52

Howard Bauchner:

23:53

And as I mentioned, before

23:56

we started rolling, I just

23:58

moved off SendGrid in sales for, like, six

24:00

So my laptop send is

24:03

a cardboard box. My backdrop is

24:05

a white wall, but I do

24:07

have your book. Oh, thank you.

24:10

The blue American kitchen. which

24:12

is cool. And it just does a fill a author.

24:15

Congrats. It's it

24:17

it's always like giving birth to have

24:19

a new to write a new book. There's just so much

24:22

that goes into it, which is really

24:24

cool. So hundred

24:26

recipes to live to a hundred. So

24:28

tell me your dietary philosophy. You mentioned

24:30

Whole Foods Fun Based. I'm I'm gonna want you to

24:32

define that a little bit more. Yeah. And then I'll

24:34

connect it to the book you're holding there. So

24:37

you know, as part

24:38

of a national geographic

24:40

project, we did a meta analysis.

24:42

So if you not want to know what a centenary

24:45

and to live to be hundred, you can't just

24:47

say, what have you been eating? Because

24:50

they they don't know. They didn't remember.

24:52

You know, if I asked you what you ate a week

24:54

ago, Tuesday, for lunch, you might

24:56

not be able to tell me. In order

24:58

to ascertain that, we found a

25:01

hundred and fifty five dietary surveys

25:04

done in all five blue zones over

25:06

the past eighty five years. And

25:08

then we did a meta analysis or sort

25:10

of a worldwide averaging. So

25:12

if you look at their traditional diets,

25:14

they're eating mostly whole

25:16

food plant based, about sixty five

25:19

percent complex carbohydrates,

25:21

not simple carbohydrates. And

25:24

the five pillars of every blue zone diet

25:26

are whole grains, greens,

25:29

tubers like sweet potatoes, nuts,

25:32

and then beans. And if you're eating a

25:35

cup of beans a day that's associated with

25:37

about four extra years of life suspectancy.

25:40

They did eat meat, but

25:42

only about five times per month

25:44

on average.

25:45

So my philosophy begins

25:48

and stops with, alright, here

25:51

here are the manifestly longest of

25:53

people. Here's the way they've been eating

25:56

this might be something you want to pay attention

25:58

to. And

25:59

I don't get

25:59

involved with sort of the micronutrients or

26:03

or trying to deconstruct the

26:07

nutrients in each of those general

26:09

food categories. But

26:11

I do over twenty

26:13

years of seeing these people and

26:16

eating with them. I I'm of the strong

26:18

opinion that that's correct that's

26:20

directionally correct as a way

26:22

to eat.

26:23

I I ended up writing my

26:25

big diet book, like, a dozen

26:28

years ago. And

26:30

I found out that legumes

26:33

of beans were

26:36

positive and so were night shaped as

26:38

So were positive problems for me,

26:41

and I wrote about lectins. And

26:43

then later, Dr. Gundry, who

26:45

you've probably have of met because he

26:47

worked with in Loma Linda

26:49

with one of the blue Zones, but he

26:51

also came out like me saying, I think

26:53

beans even though the fibers good in them.

26:55

The anti nutrients are so strong

26:58

that they're causing the problems

27:01

in the population that you worked with.

27:03

And so I I'm genuinely scratching

27:05

my head going, alright, Dave. I

27:07

hear what you're saying. When I try and do it,

27:10

it destroys my quality of life.

27:12

What what could be going on there?

27:15

Well,

27:15

two things. You're an end of Zones.

27:18

And -- Yes. -- secondly, these

27:22

I I don't know if, you

27:23

know, if you cook beans and

27:25

then rinse them, you get rid of

27:27

the vast majority of lectins. if

27:29

you, you know, if you eat king of beans and crunch

27:32

them. So

27:34

so I I don't I don't necessarily buy

27:36

the lectin argument But

27:40

really, I'll just stop and end

27:42

with, if it is indisputable

27:45

that the longest of populations are

27:47

eating lots of beans

27:49

throughout their lives n

27:51

n n n and

27:53

producing much better health income outcomes

27:56

than we are America. I

27:58

cannot tell you if it's it's because

28:00

the beans for sure. I can't tell

28:02

you if if there's something

28:05

else in their diet that's explaining

28:07

their longevity. But I can tell you

28:09

a major feature of every diet

28:11

of longevity, including by the way, Loma Linda.

28:13

So I'm not sure You know,

28:15

if if Gundry looked at the Adventist Health

28:18

study, which followed Zones hundred and

28:20

three thousand Adventist for thirty

28:22

years, he would see a ton of beans in

28:24

their diet. So I'm not sure how he

28:26

he discerned

28:29

that, you know, beans were somehow bad

28:31

for people in Loma Linda.

28:33

But but, you know, III

28:36

don't like drawing a positive. I

28:38

can't say beans cause a long life,

28:40

but I can't say beyond a shadow

28:42

of a doubt, people are living

28:44

a long time, have eaten a lot

28:46

of beans throughout their lives.

28:48

What does the Whole Foods plant based

28:51

diet mean? Like,

28:53

like, how do I know if it's a Whole Foods?

28:55

because I know that I take the shell off my walnut.

28:58

for instance. So, like, that's already processed

29:00

to certain point. How do I know, like, do

29:02

we eat the the skin of that Amami, or do I just

29:04

eat the inside? Like, like, what does Whole

29:06

Foods mean the way you use it?

29:10

Well, it's a single ingredient food.

29:13

I I guess that's a good place to start. If

29:16

you read the label and there's only one ingredient,

29:19

I mean, there's nuances

29:21

there, but

29:23

it it grows and so

29:26

it's taken out of the ground or

29:28

it's plucked off a tree or a

29:30

plant

29:31

the But

29:33

it it avoids the it

29:37

doesn't have added sugar. I think it's

29:39

a really important component

29:42

to it. It doesn't have

29:44

ingredients you can't pronounce. It

29:47

doesn't have emulsifiers, or,

29:52

you

29:52

know, you

29:54

know, to your point, it's not

29:56

ground down too much. Like, if

29:58

you overgrind even

29:59

a whole wheat,

30:01

it's not as healthy

30:03

as if you grind less. your

30:05

smoothie is healthier if you don't overblend

30:08

it, and it's still a little bit chunky because

30:10

your glycemic lowness you

30:12

know, I took a lesson from the Sardinian

30:14

Blue I start my day every

30:17

day with a really really chunky Minestroni.

30:19

and it's very very

30:22

the

30:23

low glycemic. So it

30:26

absorbs

30:26

very slowly. your

30:28

your microbiome loves it because there's

30:30

about forty different species

30:33

of fiber in there. You know, you have

30:35

about a thousand species of bacteria

30:38

They like a variation of fiber, full

30:41

vitamins, full soluble soluble

30:43

fiber and the chunky stuff. So

30:46

I don't get a spike like I would if I started

30:48

my day with cereal. I don't get bogged

30:50

down like I would if I bake bacon

30:53

and eggs for breakfast. That's

30:55

how I start my day and it's all it's

30:57

all whole foods just happen to be

30:59

cooked together.

31:02

and it's delicious by the it

31:04

sounds delicious. I'm just thinking that

31:06

if I ate that, I would have

31:08

a food baby. I would

31:10

have arthritis for a week because

31:13

of the the nitrates, and I am nitrates

31:15

sensitive. About a few four hundred people

31:17

appear to be, like, twenty eight percent of rheumatoid

31:19

arthritis is caused by the Nightshade family.

31:23

And I do farting all the time.

31:25

the

31:27

And and I'm I'm sort of and I'd be radically

31:29

hungry after I that. Like, I I would just feel like

31:31

my body wants me to eat sugar right now

31:33

to help deal with the load that it's of the

31:35

inflammation it just got.

31:38

I I, you know, III

31:40

think the

31:41

pursuit of finding

31:42

what works for you and your considerable

31:44

contribution to that body work is very important.

31:47

So by no means

31:49

what I say, you know, eat

31:51

this way because it's worked for

31:54

satinarians around the world. It has to work for you.

31:57

But I will say when it comes to microbiome,

31:59

the you know,

32:00

usually the best way, you

32:02

know, if you're feeding your microbiome, the

32:05

hundred truing or so, bacteria

32:07

in your gut, meat, cheese, and eggs,

32:09

a certain type of bacteria balloons,

32:12

and it dominates. And then The next

32:14

day, if they've been eating rib eye every day, if they've been

32:16

fed rib eye every and then all of a sudden you get

32:18

a couple beans, yeah, you might

32:20

get farty. But, you know, the

32:22

way to train it is to start

32:25

with a teaspoon or tablespoon of beans

32:27

and day one and then two tablespoons

32:29

and then wake work your way up to a cup.

32:32

that's

32:34

You'll get less party that way. It doesn't

32:36

stop the joint issues for me, but it did stop

32:38

the party I mean, I I love refried

32:40

B and C team a lot when I was younger, but

32:43

I don't because of just kinda

32:45

dialing in the personal precision. So thank you

32:47

for sharing that. tidbit. You you

32:50

put something else in your book. I wanna compliment

32:52

you on. This is a page that says regional

32:54

and contemporary America. You actually, like,

32:56

drove through the country

32:58

run on a road trip, and you talk about Appalachian

33:01

food, coastal food, you know, Persian,

33:03

Japanese. It it it's it's

33:05

pretty cool that you're teasing out

33:08

what's happening in the real world

33:10

that's still based on eating real food that

33:12

single ingredient, which I I like

33:15

a lot about your approach there. It

33:17

it is a way more natural approach than,

33:19

you know, the pop tarts diet. But

33:22

I could just say, you know, the idea behind

33:24

that blue zone America kitchen. So,

33:28

well, from what I discern from the longest

33:30

of populations, I did come up with a dietary

33:33

pattern. And then I worked

33:35

with an NYU researcher to find

33:37

subcultures in America

33:39

that followed this same dietary

33:42

pattern, and we found it among

33:44

the African, Asian Latin,

33:46

and Native Americans living

33:48

around nineteen hundred nineteen twenty.

33:56

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33:58

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34:00

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34:04

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34:56

You're listening to the human upgrade

34:58

with Dave Asbury. And

35:01

then I worked with an NYU

35:03

researcher to find subcultures

35:05

in America that followed

35:08

this same dietary pattern. And we found

35:10

it among the

35:11

African, Asian Latin,

35:13

and Native

35:13

Americans living around

35:16

nineteen hundred, nineteen twenty.

35:18

And then I found during the pandemic,

35:21

while other people were locking

35:23

down. It took a national geographic

35:25

photographer in

35:26

a van, and we went from Maine to

35:28

Miami

35:30

to Maui and then up to Minnesota. And

35:33

we found fifty Dave,

35:34

I would say heritage chefs

35:37

who Buettner are bringing

35:40

back this traditional way of eating. And it's

35:42

usually immigrants, by the way, fusing

35:44

the way they did things in the old country and

35:46

new country influences,

35:47

and then who could recreate these.

35:50

An important thing to remember, Dave, is

35:53

we evolved as a species

35:55

eat eating this kind of food.

35:57

So by the way, in in blue Zones, they're

35:59

not

35:59

vegan except for some Adventist. they

36:02

love meat. And by the way, if they if

36:04

they're given all the meat, they they want,

36:06

they'll eat it all the time. In fact, we're seeing this

36:08

in Sardinia. and not

36:10

coincidentally. And they're also eating lot

36:13

more processed food. And

36:14

almost every blue zone is disappearing as

36:17

their dietary pattern starts to

36:19

mimic you know, the standard American

36:21

diet.

36:22

So what what we I think we can both

36:24

agree on is a standard American diet.

36:26

The way we're eating right now is killing

36:28

us. probably, you know,

36:31

I wrote an essay in the front of that book, Blue

36:33

Zones American Kitchen, which will also appear

36:36

in January's issue of National Geographic.

36:39

But according to

36:41

the CDC, about six

36:43

hundred and eighty thousand Americans will

36:45

die this year

36:46

prematurely because

36:48

of the way we eat. And

36:50

it doesn't have to be like that. You know

36:52

the way more people

36:54

had

36:54

died eating the standard American diet

36:57

than have died in

36:58

World War one, World War

37:00

two, the

37:01

Korean War and Vietnam War combined. yeah,

37:04

we don't spend nearly as

37:06

much effort and time

37:08

trying to fix that as we do, you

37:10

know, with the Veterans Commission. And of course, people

37:13

give their life for our country, they need to

37:15

be recognized. I'm just saying is, you know,

37:17

we ought to be focusing on this other

37:19

big problem, killing more of us.

37:22

completely agree. I mean, look at our

37:24

reaction over the last couple of years to

37:26

something that is a tiny drop in the

37:28

bucket compared to what's happening every year

37:31

from preventable problems

37:33

driven by nutrition. Some

37:35

stuff has come out around from

37:38

Oxford saying that in the US,

37:42

you can predict that there's going to be extreme

37:44

longevity when there's an absence

37:46

of vital registration? In

37:48

other words, if they didn't have birth certificates,

37:51

there's magically a lot more older people.

37:53

Yes. I know that. Yeah. I'm sure you've

37:55

come across the research. I'm gonna explain it just a little

37:57

bit for listeners. And then just, like, tell me what's going

37:59

on with this because I think you're a smart guy. I think you're

38:01

heart smart. I think you're doing the right thing.

38:04

And it looks like from this this paper, there's

38:06

a couple others. They're saying poverty,

38:08

old age poverty, material deprivation,

38:11

low income, high crime, remote

38:13

region of birth, worse

38:15

health in the general population, and

38:18

fewer and other things like

38:20

that predicted remarkable longevity.

38:23

You're saying you're not looking at remarkable longevity,

38:26

but what these guys are finding is that

38:28

the areas, a lot of areas that you've looked

38:30

at, they have weird distributions of

38:32

people where it looks like some people might have faked their

38:34

birth certificates to avoid inheritance taxes.

38:37

So you must have thought about this. You must have

38:39

read the papers. Tell me your take on all this.

38:42

Yeah.

38:42

No, you're absolutely right.

38:45

We have when there's not birth certificates,

38:47

there's always age, exaggeration. With

38:50

you know, I write for National Geographic

38:52

where the fact checkers occupy

38:54

the corner office. And we before

38:56

we even published one word, we spent

38:59

three years in every one of

39:01

the blue zones checking birth certificates.

39:04

So there is a birth certificate and

39:06

not only checking the birth certificates, in

39:09

many cases verifying it by looking

39:11

at the baptismal record, And

39:13

a demographer named Michelle Kuwon

39:15

did that work. So we have a very

39:18

firm base on on

39:20

all blue zones they're

39:22

very good birth records. In fact, better

39:25

birth records in Costa Rica for example

39:27

than in the United States. We're all

39:30

Dave it very easy in Costa When

39:32

you're born, you're given a sequential number.

39:35

So it's kind of impossible to

39:38

you know, lie about your age because

39:40

you're born, you're given this this, you know,

39:43

an ID number that is

39:45

the the

39:46

guy was born five minutes before you

39:48

gets lower number, and the guy

39:50

born five minutes after you gets a higher number.

39:52

So you can't all of a sudden say,

39:54

What was so what was the other what

39:57

was the other

39:58

problem or

40:00

whatever? No. No. No. No.

40:02

Okay. Right. Right. Poverty. So

40:04

-- Right. --

40:07

two things. First of all, in every one

40:09

of the blue zones, they're kind of

40:11

they're deteriorating. The way people

40:14

are living today was not the way they were

40:16

living in the year

40:18

two thousand even or even two thousand ten,

40:20

And my work was mostly

40:23

the

40:24

synthesizing studies

40:26

that have been done in these blue zones up

40:28

to about the year two thousand. because

40:30

then things changed. And

40:33

or if you look at Okinawa of today,

40:35

Okinawa in the year two thousand

40:37

had the longest of population in

40:39

the history of the world. That was recorded in the World

40:42

Health Organization, published paper.

40:44

In two thousand twenty,

40:47

They

40:47

have the highest rates of obesity and

40:50

diabetes and actually the lowest

40:52

health of any prefecture in

40:54

Japan. So if a demographer

40:56

or if one of these people writing the paper goes to

40:58

Okanawa Dave and looks at

41:01

them,

41:01

of course, they they're gonna draw

41:03

What the hell? These blue zones are bunch of BS.

41:06

But we're we've captured a

41:08

population that live longer than any other

41:10

human, and then capture what was done

41:12

in human lifetime in

41:15

those populations. So that's where

41:17

most of my work has done. In Sardinia and

41:20

Costa Rica, the blue zones persist as

41:22

they do

41:22

among the seventh day Adventists.

41:23

So so you're saying that you

41:26

you did adequate work to

41:29

to validate the birth certificates of the people

41:31

you were you were looking at. And

41:33

just having known your work

41:36

from afar and your reputation amongst

41:38

people who know you personally because the number

41:40

of people who are doing longevity work is not that

41:42

large. Like, real hard core longevity

41:44

work. You have a stellar reputation.

41:47

Your motivations are are exactly

41:49

in the right place. And

41:52

I I greatly respect that.

41:55

And so I I'm I'm willing

41:57

to believe you where where you say, okay, and we validated

41:59

this to the

42:01

to the extent possible.

42:03

And, like, there's a whole bunch of people who've gone back

42:05

and all this. And there's actually a whole group of

42:08

Yeah. tribe that behaves

42:10

kinda like the the people who do editing

42:12

on Wikipedia. Like like, it it's a group of, like,

42:15

kind of insular kind of arguing to see

42:17

who's right, sort of things, who will go

42:19

in and try and validate stuff like that.

42:21

So you went down the path with your populations

42:23

and you came up with these results and

42:26

I'm mystified because I didn't come up with these

42:28

results when I look at it mechanistically

42:31

the But

42:32

I I'm still intrigued by by your work

42:34

and your perspective on it. So thanks for answering

42:36

the question. How long are you

42:38

gonna live?

42:39

Well, you know, if you look at

42:41

the trends that life expectancy since

42:44

about eighteen forty is going up two years

42:46

per

42:47

per decade,

42:49

And I think I do all the right things. You

42:51

know, I get enough physical activity. I'm

42:53

socially active. I don't have a lot of stress

42:55

in my life. I don't smoke.

42:58

You know, I believe a whole food plant based

43:00

diet with very little animal products

43:02

is is the way to go. I eat

43:04

that way. So,

43:06

you know, if you look at the if you look at

43:08

the life tables for me, my life

43:09

expectancy should be about ninety

43:12

two, but

43:13

I'm I'm in my sixties right

43:15

now. And if I get that extra two years

43:17

per decade that we see historically,

43:19

I should hit a hundred. And

43:21

yeah. And, you

43:23

know, I may be around for one

43:25

you know, some heroic

43:27

intervention that

43:29

you're closer to that I am,

43:31

that may just come along and, you know,

43:34

extend my life another you

43:36

know, I don't know,

43:37

a hundred years.

43:39

Do you run, like, anti

43:41

aging or age measurement

43:43

lab tests do you know your true age?

43:46

Have you had stem cells?

43:48

Any of the

43:50

the No. I don't think I

43:52

think there's more danger in those things

43:54

than there are --

43:55

Absolutely. -- actually. I

43:56

especially stem cells, Mike

43:59

Roysen just wrote a great book called

44:03

Upgrade Age Reboot. And

44:05

I he's a respected Cleveland Clinic

44:07

And

44:07

he wrote Upgrade

44:11

book about those interventions and really

44:13

outlines the dangers of them, you know,

44:15

as well as the promise. So there's

44:17

a there's some danger with those

44:20

the interventions.

44:21

It's really interesting

44:23

because some of the things Some

44:26

of the things that are

44:29

strongest in favor of a very

44:31

low meat diet comes

44:34

down to a couple amino acids, and you don't get

44:36

into the mechanistic, but I do. And

44:39

if you're eating animal

44:42

protein, specifically, methionine, which

44:44

is an amino acid that's more common

44:46

in animal protein. And

44:48

tryptophan These things

44:51

will raise a compound called

44:53

ImmTOR. And

44:56

the theory goes that if you have more of

44:58

those, then ImmTOR,

45:01

which causes growth in tissues, would

45:03

be higher, and therefore your cancer risk would be higher.

45:07

And that's one of the reasons intermittent

45:09

fasting seems to be important. And I think

45:11

you'll also find the fasting practices common

45:13

in a lot of your blue Zones as well. It's

45:15

not a practice. It's it was an involuntary.

45:19

Okay. More personal. investing.

45:22

Yeah. k. But they did real

45:24

fasting. Every one of the blue zones,

45:27

I'd

45:27

say, suffer to fast. But you're right, fasting

45:29

was part of their

45:31

their their history. So it's like it's

45:33

this interesting puzzle. It's like a big Rubik's cube, but

45:35

I don't know whoever gonna solve it all for everyone

45:37

because there's probably individual stuff

45:40

here. There are some people where like,

45:42

did I try it? I don't feel good. And there are many

45:44

other people say, yes, I try it. feel good. It's not

45:46

gonna be the same for everyone. but

45:49

the principles of fewer toxins don't

45:51

eat ultra processed foods.

45:53

I think we're in very

45:55

firm agreement on that one, Dave.

45:57

Yes. I I violently Asprey.

45:59

The

46:03

process food is at the core.

46:05

Is that we're and probably sugar, refined

46:07

sugars. I think those two things

46:09

are the number one and number two

46:11

scoundrels in our diet and

46:14

The other stuff I it's fine tuning

46:16

it. What

46:16

about seed oils? Like canola

46:19

and soy and corn? Are those better

46:21

than sugar or worse than sugar in terms of your

46:23

It's hard to say, but

46:25

they're not good.

46:26

Yeah.

46:27

I I only use olive oil.

46:29

Yep. Zones of the things that blew me

46:31

away as I was going through your recipes

46:34

in here, you had a crust, of course,

46:36

I have gluten that I'm not a fan of. You had

46:38

a crust that was made out of tallow.

46:40

I I think you probably found the only animal

46:42

product in there. And III

46:45

had the you know, I tried

46:47

to be journalistically honest about

46:49

these things. You know, this was a a

46:51

food archaeologist who

46:54

recreating a Thanksgiving, well,

46:56

an early seventeenth century meal.

46:58

Yeah.

46:59

And, yeah, those they

47:01

didn't they didn't have coconut oil there. That's

47:03

why I put coconut oil as as the alternative.

47:06

People in blue zones did eat

47:10

meat. They did eat

47:12

cheese. They did eat some butter.

47:14

Well, not really Not cows.

47:17

more sheep

47:18

and and

47:19

I I guess the Cheap and

47:21

good. Just because sheep and good are cheaper. Those are

47:23

more poverty animals than than cows. Yeah.

47:26

a cow that almost no cow was in any

47:28

blue zones. But

47:31

that, you know, my main work Dave

47:32

I get hired

47:34

by insurance companies. I have a

47:37

company

47:37

of two hundred people and

47:39

we go into cities and we help change

47:42

the environment

47:42

rather than changing people's behaviors.

47:45

And

47:46

when you're dealing with talking to

47:48

whole populations of people, you

47:51

you can't be it's hard to

47:53

be nuanced. You have to be very

47:55

simple. And for the blue zone

47:57

brand, I've made the decision that

47:59

we

47:59

we

48:01

only promote whole food plant based.

48:03

We know people are gonna get meat

48:05

in their everyday life, but we when

48:07

eating sort of a blue Zones way, we

48:10

we put forth the whole food plant Dave

48:12

knowing that people might slip some

48:14

cheese or some butter or some meat in

48:16

these recipes. But the base recipes

48:19

tastes maniacally delicious and

48:21

they're a hundred percent whole food plant based.

48:24

They take less than a half hour to make and

48:27

they are the core of the longevity

48:30

diets from around the world.

48:33

So if the populations in

48:35

these areas, eight as much

48:37

meat as they could get. They just didn't have very much

48:39

meat, and they're eating it five times

48:42

a month on on average. And

48:44

probably, some months

48:46

during, you know, the end of the season when you're

48:48

gonna harvest an animal or something to Dave more than

48:50

because they -- Correct. -- it was it was done

48:52

seasonally. the With

48:55

all of that stuff, are you a little

48:58

concerned that that which would been a precious

49:00

food to them is just missing from a whole

49:02

food plant based item?

49:04

Well, their meat consumption

49:05

has

49:06

quintupled. And at the same time,

49:09

their chronic disease rates

49:12

have skyrocketed and their life expectancy

49:14

is plummeting. Now, again, that's just

49:16

a correlation. And also,

49:19

what's also entered their diet is a lot

49:21

more processed foods. So They got

49:23

drugs of corn oil. At the same time, they

49:25

got more meat. because that's always that can

49:27

found. That's correct. Correct. But it's

49:29

hard to know what you know,

49:31

we do know that

49:33

the standard American diet,

49:35

which is includes about a hundred

49:37

and forty pounds of meat per person

49:39

per year

49:40

and about I'm Two hundred twenty

49:43

pounds, hundred and forty pounds of sugar

49:45

per person per year and these inflammatory

49:48

oils. We know it's killing us. We

49:50

know it's driving about true true

49:52

trillion. It's hard to know

49:54

which of those components are doing

49:57

the most damage. If you

49:58

look at the Adventist Health

49:59

Study, again, filed a hundred and three

50:02

thousand Americans for thirty years.

50:04

You see pretty clearly the people

50:06

who are either a hundred percent

50:08

plant based or eating some fish,

50:10

the pascatarians. They have they're

50:12

living the longest with the lowest rates of

50:15

disease, and they also have the healthiest weight.

50:17

they

50:17

weigh about twenty pounds less. So

50:20

there's probably some epidemiology study

50:22

that shows that people eat a lot of meat

50:24

healthier. I'm not aware of it.

50:26

Buettner, you

50:29

know, your specialty and your lot

50:31

better than me, as knowing

50:33

these sort of micronutrients and

50:36

how they interact with their genes and

50:38

our bodies

50:39

and I

50:41

I don't

50:41

know that science as well as I know the

50:43

population science. So I

50:46

I generally speaking, you

50:47

know,

50:48

here's what these populations do

50:50

I think we both agree that

50:52

it's smarter to try different

50:55

foods that work best for us, but

50:58

pay attention from both camps

51:00

of research and draw your own conclusions

51:02

because it's your life.

51:04

You're you're totally right. It

51:06

is your life and And

51:08

I I have

51:09

run the gamut because I I very

51:11

much have have tried all

51:13

these different diets to find what worked and

51:15

and I would have rather not written a

51:17

diet book, except I just realized I

51:19

thought I I and I I still believe that

51:21

I found you some some gaps in

51:24

our understandings that we take advantage of

51:26

around certain buttons that get pushed

51:28

for certain people. And

51:30

I I'm always tormented because I'll

51:33

see one paper that says one

51:35

thing, and I'll see another paper that says the opposite

51:38

thing. Yeah. And and so many

51:40

people listening are so confused right

51:42

now. Right? And the end

51:44

of the day is you can

51:46

tease out on some papers, you know, if it's funded

51:48

by animal rights

51:50

terrorist group. then maybe

51:53

they didn't have health. They had manipulation

51:55

of your behavior as as part of their

51:58

agenda. Or if it's funded by, you know,

52:00

the American Meat and Dairy Association,

52:02

assuming there is a settlement association.

52:04

Right. And and so you can look at funding

52:07

And then at the end of the day, you can read through the papers

52:09

if you have the knowledge and understanding to do that.

52:12

And what I just found was for me to survive

52:14

and even to thrive. I had

52:17

to do that. And I was willing to do

52:19

it. And I I still see compounding

52:21

papers, and then I looked for, okay, was there a mistake?

52:23

And then sometimes there's pockets of populations,

52:26

there's so much we don't know. The

52:28

fear of making a mistake nutritionally keeps

52:31

a lot of people from stepping up. And

52:34

what I want to say here is you look like they're reasonably

52:36

healthy. You haven't run the anti aging panels

52:39

where we can compare numbers. And even if we

52:41

did, you're an end of Zones. an end of

52:43

one worth were small studies. But everyone

52:45

listening is a small study. Like, it's totally

52:47

fine. Go eat a whole bunch beans and see how

52:49

it works. And

52:50

and and use a good recipe because

52:53

I don't want to turn you off to them. That's

52:55

a

52:55

fair point. Make sure that you don't just toss them in

52:57

Japan, boil them, and eat them. And the same thing with rice,

52:59

like you rinse it, you steam it. So there's

53:02

nothing wrong with preparing foods to

53:04

make them more nutrient available

53:07

and less toxic for us. And like that's

53:09

a core part of human behavior forever, knowing

53:11

how to do that well for beans and be really

53:13

in your interests. Right? I

53:16

really appreciate your time, Dan. It was fantastic.

53:19

Finally connecting with you. Thank you for

53:21

the work you're doing. And to tease out what

53:23

works for people. Have a wonderful

53:25

day. And guys, blue Zones. American

53:27

Kitchens, his new book. Thank

53:29

you very much, David. And I look forward to meeting

53:31

you in Austin. Yes.

53:33

As you come to Miami, Mikasa is

53:35

too possible. Thank you. I'll come on

53:37

over. As long as you don't mind, it'll meet in the corner of your

53:39

fridge. We'll be good. That's alright. We'll

53:42

we'll carten off of section. Really

53:44

enjoy to meet you, and thank you for the lively

53:46

conversation. Alright. Thanks, my brother. Alright.

53:48

Have a have a good day. Your listening

53:51

to the human upgrade with Dave Asbury.