0:00

You're listening

0:02

to the human upgrade with Dave Asprey. Formerly,

0:08

bulletproof state of high

0:10

performance. You're listening to the

0:12

human upgrade with Dave Asbury.

0:15

This is the thousand episode

0:18

of the Upgrade. And they

0:21

wanted to do something special. So it's

0:23

also the first podcast

0:26

that I've ever recorded out of my new studios

0:29

in Austin, Texas, where

0:32

I am living

0:34

for a while, which is fantastic and

0:36

fun, and it's helping me to support

0:39

our Upgrade Labs franchise. and

0:42

lots of those going around. Guys, check out

0:44

own and upgradelabs dot com if you

0:47

ever wanted to bring biohacking to

0:49

your town. PhD what

0:51

else could I do that special? How about

0:53

we party? What?

0:55

Well, we could have a party now. but

0:58

I'm gonna take you back to the

1:01

second maybe third blog

1:03

post that I ever wrote.

1:05

back in late twenty ten

1:08

was, hey, I

1:10

hate to say this, but alcohol's bad

1:12

for you. I know

1:14

that we enjoy it as humans for lots

1:16

of reasons, and you've heard me talk about

1:18

alcohol replacements that

1:20

hit similar similar

1:23

pathways in your brain, things

1:25

like true cava and all. But

1:27

I do not believe in

1:29

any way, shape, or form, that

1:31

we are going to stop drinking as a

1:33

species anytime soon. But

1:36

what could you do when you

1:38

wanna enjoy a really good glass of wine,

1:40

when you wanna have some amazing tequila, I'm in

1:42

Austin, apparently, that's obligatory.

1:44

So what do

1:46

we do about that? And you've heard me talk about glutathione

1:48

and vitamin c and PhD all

1:50

the precursors for glutathione PhD how

1:52

it Abbott that's

1:54

not what the show is about because, well, I already

1:57

taught you that. And if you've been a listener, you probably

1:59

already figured that one

1:59

out PhD you figured out you can get away

2:02

with Abbott there's

2:03

something new that is cutting edge biohacking.

2:05

And that's what I wanted to talk about with you

2:07

on the on the thousandth episode because

2:10

this is the first of what I

2:12

think is gonna be very, very many companies

2:14

with this innovative approach. It's a company

2:16

I I first spoke with

2:19

Abbott, what, four, five years ago, about

2:22

the potential for this, and it's

2:24

just now ready for the market. And I'm so

2:26

super stoked about it because it's a new

2:28

a new way of solving a problem that I think

2:30

all of us have. And

2:32

we're gonna talk about probiotics and

2:35

pre engineering them in a way that

2:37

you haven't really heard of before.

2:39

Our guest is Zack Abbott who

2:42

is the CEO and cofounder of a

2:44

company called zbiotics. This

2:46

is not like any probiotic

2:48

or anything else I've ever talked about

2:50

on the show before because it's the

2:52

first of its kind in the world. So this isn't

2:55

like a, hey, guys, I want you to go buy

2:57

this kind of podcast. Although,

2:59

frankly, I think this is a very worthy thing.

3:01

This is a holy crap. We can do

3:03

this now kind of podcast. It's

3:05

super cool. Zack,

3:08

welcome to the show. Thanks so much

3:10

for having me PhD I I love that introduction because

3:12

that's exactly how

3:14

I think about it as well, which is that I'm excited

3:16

about the technology and the new category that

3:18

we're building. Yeah. I'm excited about our product. PhD,

3:20

of course, it'd be great if everyone unbought

3:22

it. But really, what I'm excited about talking is

3:24

genetically engineered probiotics, and I think

3:26

the feature that we can build

3:28

with them.

3:30

Well, there you go. You just said the words

3:33

a certain percentage of our audience is now

3:35

up in arms. He said genetically engineering.

3:38

That means glyphosate, Monsanto,

3:40

and environmental devastation. Doesn't

3:42

it?

3:43

you know, my favorite topic

3:45

is talking about genetic engineering.

3:48

And and certainly, look,

3:50

the mission around antibiotics is to elevate the conversation

3:52

around GMO's PhD genetic engineering.

3:59

A

3:59

major

3:59

part of my strategy that Dave way longer

4:02

than I'm supposed to is to protect my

4:04

blood vessels. That's because if you don't

4:06

have good blood flow, nothing else is

4:08

gonna work. Just like you protect your

4:10

gut, you protect your brain, you ought to be protecting

4:12

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4:14

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vessels healthy is one of the most effective things

5:01

you could do to live a long time.

5:06

the mission around robotics is to elevate conversation

5:09

around GMO's and genetic engineering. And I

5:11

think that you're exactly right. I think that

5:13

a technology has been conflated with

5:15

bad business practices. So I certainly wouldn't advocate

5:17

and say that all demos are good

5:19

or all demos are bad. It's

5:21

more like it's a tool. Right? You

5:23

think of, like, let's say, your

5:26

anti guns. You probably

5:28

aren't anti metallurgy, the technology

5:30

used to make the guns. Right? because you recognize

5:32

that metallurgy can also make a spoon.

5:34

PhD that has a very different safety profile, a

5:37

very different kind of use case. Right? And so genetic

5:39

engineering is the same thing. It's a tool. It's

5:41

a novel tool. in our toolbox

5:43

that as we've sort of advanced

5:45

as a in terms of science and biotechnology,

5:47

it's something that we can do now pretty easily.

5:49

PhD it's a matter of how it's applied. Is

5:52

it applied responsibly? Is it applied for the

5:54

benefit of the user? All those

5:56

things are questions that we can do that we

5:58

can ask when we're trying to use genetic

5:59

engineering. And so I think that genetic

6:02

engineering could be used to make a lot of

6:04

things that are really amazing in advanced

6:06

humanity in ways that everybody

6:08

can align on. Right? Like, the purpose of genetic

6:11

engineering is to help us

6:12

the sort

6:13

of combat some of the major existential crises

6:16

facing humanity around climate change,

6:18

emerging diseases, feeding a growing

6:20

population of people. Genetic engineering

6:22

is a tool, biotechnology is a tool we can use.

6:24

We can leverage for that, and I think that's something we can

6:26

onboard with. Now can also be

6:28

used for things that people don't want absolutely.

6:30

And so really trying to elevate that understanding

6:33

of genetic engineering to a place

6:35

where it's not easy or isn't it

6:37

good or PhD. It's more like is this

6:39

use of it any good? And I think that there's a

6:41

lot of really exciting use cases.

6:44

Do you know how we make citric acid these

6:46

days? Yeah.

6:47

I mean, we use genetic engineering

6:49

to make lots of things. It's

6:52

I would say that my favorite example of genetic

6:54

engineering used in a really positive way is

6:57

human insulin. So, you

6:59

know, go back to the nineteen sixties and

7:01

seventies. We were literally slaughtering

7:03

tens of millions of cows and

7:05

pigs PhD taking their livers

7:08

and ruses and loading the under refrigerated

7:10

train cars and then driving them to giant factors

7:12

where we did a massive extraction of

7:15

pig and cow insulin. And

7:17

we gave that to people to keep them alive who

7:19

had a type one diabetes. PhD

7:21

then this little plucky kind

7:23

of new biotechnology company called

7:25

Genentech Zack E.

7:28

coli and genetically engineered it. so

7:30

that expressed human insulin. And

7:32

then in the space of a ferment a fermenter

7:34

about the size of a refrigerator, we

7:36

could

7:37

completely eliminate this slaughter of tens of

7:39

millions of animals that we raised and threw

7:41

away. Just took their livers pancreatic. Didn't

7:43

didn't we also eat them or were they too

7:45

stupid to do You're telling me and put them

7:48

Maybe not. It depends, you know, with PhD pharmaceutical

7:51

industry, like, who knows if if that

7:53

was considered, you know, acceptable.

7:55

So Regardless, it was certainly

7:57

a massively inefficient use of

7:59

of time and

7:59

energy and animal life. And

8:02

so the fact that we could then program a

8:04

bacteria to make human insulin as opposed

8:06

to cow or pig insulin, you

8:08

know, we were able to scale up

8:10

and now treat, you know, a growing population

8:12

and growing demand that

8:15

needs human insulin. And so nobody has

8:17

a problem with GMO's if you're diabetic

8:19

PhD going to die if you don't get insulin. Right?

8:21

It's a very safe use case it's

8:23

very valuable for humanity. And

8:25

there are so many other things that we

8:27

can do with genetic engineering and PhD as

8:29

I say, it's not something that

8:31

uniformly will be used for good. And, you know, and I would

8:33

argue that even in the scenario, right,

8:35

with glyphosate, it's a I think that the

8:37

fundamental purpose of that initially, right,

8:39

you could see was

8:42

meant for sustainability. Right? The idea that we could

8:44

get more yields per acre. mow

8:47

down less farm forest to make

8:49

farms on, and that's a

8:51

good goal. Right? Like, the the way it

8:53

got applied maybe is definitely

8:55

unsavory. And so I don't think that that's how it worked

8:57

out, but the goal of engineering

8:59

to make more sustainable

9:01

crops is is very possible. So

9:03

there's really cool science being done right now

9:05

with engineer microbes in fixing

9:07

nitrogen from the from the atmosphere. into

9:10

the root nodule of plants directly as

9:12

opposed to adding nitrogen fertilizer

9:14

which people talk a lot about, you

9:17

know, pesticides as as environmentally damaging,

9:19

but nitrogen fertilizer arguably is one of

9:21

the worst things we do agricultural. All that

9:23

nitrogen gets washed off the soil goes

9:25

into local waterways causes Abbott blooms,

9:27

one of the hugest sources of greenhouse

9:30

gas. And so but

9:32

there's all seventy percent of our atmosphere is

9:34

nitrogen. There's always nitrogen floating around there. Right?

9:36

And microbes are already capable of

9:38

fixing that into something that a plant can

9:40

use. So So that's a really great application of genetic

9:42

engineering where we can actually be more

9:44

sustainable in our agriculture as an

9:46

example. And so I think there's a lot of use

9:48

case for genetic engineering if he is

9:50

responsibly and applied well that

9:52

could really elevate us as a

9:54

humanity as we deal with existential crises.

9:56

I prefer natural solutions

9:58

because there may be unintended consequences

10:01

for anything, but there are some things we can do

10:03

now and something that you just stepped up there with

10:05

your big background and all this kind of stuff and

10:07

said, what if we solved the

10:09

alcohol problem? And the alcohol problem

10:11

just to be blunt guys, if you

10:13

drink even one Drink per

10:16

night, several nights a

10:18

week. Your brain won't look the

10:20

same. I am on the board of

10:22

Amen clinics. Daniel Amen is a

10:24

dear friend He's got a quarter

10:26

million brain scans. And he

10:28

shows people over and over what a little

10:30

bit of alcohol does when you drink it. And

10:32

the mechanism of action of

10:34

alcohol is that

10:36

it makes a lot of a chemical

10:38

called aldehydes. in the body.

10:40

And all of the things I've taught you to do are

10:42

to just blunt the aldehydes spike, the

10:44

glutathione, the vitamin c, and

10:46

things like that. aldihide is

10:49

something that causes aging via the

10:51

creation of advanced glycation end

10:53

products. Talk to me aboutaldihide for a little while

10:55

and then tell me what you've figured out with

10:57

gut bacteria and all the hide? Absolutely.

10:59

So all the hides are sort of a class of

11:01

chemicals that are highly reactive. Zack have a double

11:03

bonded oxygen PhD they are

11:05

able to react with a lot of things in your a

11:08

lot of things

11:09

generally, but then, you know, specifically in your

11:11

body. And so the

11:13

molecule alcohol is sort of

11:16

basically

11:17

oxidized to

11:20

acetaldehyde specifically. which

11:22

is an aldehyde. An acetaldehyde

11:25

is highly toxic. It's a

11:27

small molecule like alcohol that is

11:29

highly soluble. It kind of diffuses through your

11:31

cell membranes. It can bind to

11:33

DNA, creating DNA PhD x

11:35

and binds to protein, creating protein add

11:37

x and These things are highly

11:39

inflammatory and damaging, which causes cell

11:41

death. And basically, when

11:43

you're exposed to acetaldehyde, you

11:46

kind of you create all this sort of,

11:48

you know, as you put a Dave, you kind

11:50

of gunk up the gears, you create a lot of cell

11:52

death, you then which simulates a huge

11:54

immune response PhD you sort of get this inflammatory

11:56

response. dealing with kind of this havoc

11:58

that's being reaped. It's kind of like the bowl

12:00

in the China shot. And

12:02

it's a very small molecule, but it has this big

12:04

outsized kind of impact. And so The best

12:06

way to deal with that is

12:08

to turn that aldehyde

12:11

into another molecule that's

12:13

not as reactive. So we taste basically remove

12:15

that double bond and entering the acetate,

12:17

which is essentially acetic acid's

12:19

vinegar. And so that's a short

12:21

chain fatty acid. And I'm sure talked

12:23

about that many times. Right? So things like butyrate,

12:26

propaneate, acetate, these are short chain fatty

12:28

acids that are actually anti inflammatory, good

12:30

for your microbiome, good for your body, So

12:32

we're taking this highly toxic molecule

12:35

acetaldehyde, and then we're converting it to acetate.

12:37

And that's the normal biological

12:39

process that happens your liver expresses

12:41

enzymes that break down the alcohol

12:43

into acetaldehyde, but then immediately

12:46

another enzyme that converts acetaldehyde

12:48

to acetyl And so that's normally how the

12:50

biology of your body works and how we

12:52

detoxify

12:53

alcohol. So

12:55

that's that, you know,

12:57

that's generally speaking what your body

12:59

is trying to do.

13:00

And then I can kind of talk about

13:02

where that goes wrong. on body of

13:05

Yeah. Let's talk about what happens during

13:07

that process. So I take a shot of tequila.

13:09

So I'm not worried about at

13:11

this point I'm not worried about

13:13

all the the yeast and mold

13:15

byproducts and histamines PhD other

13:17

additives that can be present in

13:19

wine or or flavored alcohols PhD stuff like that. So

13:21

I'm talking about pure, mostly alcohol

13:24

PhD water thing like a vodka tequila

13:26

whiskey, something like that. I take a shot

13:28

of it. k?

13:29

Goes into my stomach? How does it get

13:31

my liver? Yeah. So basically exactly.

13:34

Look, you whatever you're drinking, if it has

13:36

ethanol in it, I'm gonna tell the story

13:38

ethanol. Then there's all the other things that might

13:40

be in there that may have to deal with separately.

13:42

But the ethanol, basically,

13:44

goes Zack, gets absorbed in your bloodstream.

13:47

various stages during your digestive tract, some

13:49

it actually gets absorbed in your mouth, some gets it

13:51

over your stomach, and then some gets absorbed

13:53

in your intestines. And so that gets absorbed in your bloodstream.

13:55

The ethanol circulates throughout your body

13:57

PhD it has the effects that it has, which is

14:00

generally speaking why people drink. And

14:02

then it once it's in your

14:04

bloodstream, then your liver has access to it. So

14:06

everything kind of in your blood eventually gets filtered

14:08

through your liver. And Once

14:10

it hits your liver, that

14:13

alcohol is processed, as I said, in two stages

14:15

basically, and alcohol dehydrogenase

14:17

converts the alcohol into acetaldehyde. And

14:19

then immediately that acetaldehyde is

14:22

converted by another enzyme called acetaldehyde

14:24

dehydrogenase and it converts that acetaldehyde

14:26

into acetate. from acetate,

14:28

many other things happen metabolically to it.

14:30

But from a toxicity standpoint, the

14:32

ethanol has now been detoxified from

14:34

your body. So the story is a

14:36

little different though in your gut.

14:38

Most of the alcohol is absorbed into your bloodstream,

14:40

and your and your liver is excellent

14:42

at detoxifying it. unless you have a mutation

14:44

in the acetylide dehydrogenase enzyme,

14:46

but separate separate issue. For most people

14:48

-- Yep. -- that's very straightforward. And so

14:51

then what happens in the gut is that a

14:53

small amount of the alcohol that reaches

14:55

your gut before it's absorbed into the bloodstream

14:57

actually gets converted or

14:59

gets metabolized in the gut directly,

15:02

large part by your microbiome, by the microbes

15:04

that are living in your gut. And

15:06

your microbes, you know, alcohol, ethanol

15:08

is is toxic to human cells,

15:10

but also to microbial cells. And

15:12

so they express alcohol dehydrogenases

15:15

pretty regularly. And so some small

15:17

amount of alcohol that you drink is

15:19

converted into acetaldehyde by an

15:21

alcohol dehydrogenase on some of the one your

15:23

liver uses. But subsequently,

15:25

that acetaldehyde that forms in the gut is

15:27

not converted to acetate

15:29

because bacteria don't express outside

15:31

the hydrogenated as commonly. So

15:33

what happens is even though it's a very

15:35

small site of alkyl

15:37

Abbott, honestly not discussed very

15:39

often, the bacterial cholonic

15:41

pathway of alcohol metabolism, it actually ends up being

15:43

the major source of acetaldehyde in the body because the

15:45

liver is so efficient at both steps. even

15:47

though Imetel is much more the alcohol. So

15:49

we see cholonic acid alkylate

15:52

concentrations at three hundred to five hundred

15:54

micromolar whereas blood acetaldehyde concentrations

15:56

are closer to like fifty or sixty micromolar.

15:59

So we're seeing

15:59

like roughly

16:00

ten higher levels of acetaldehyde.

16:03

being formed in the colon rather

16:05

than the bloodstream, even though it's the minor

16:07

source of alkyl metabolism, which is really an

16:09

interesting observation -- Mhmm. --

16:11

how it gets overlooked because We're talking

16:13

about relatively small amount of acetaldehyde, but

16:15

sort of the dose makes the poison.

16:17

Okay. Small amount of acetaldehyde can wreak

16:19

a lot of havoc throughout the body. So it

16:21

forms in a colon. PhD much the alcohol

16:23

described, it gets then absorbed

16:25

in the bloodstream, wreaks havoc throughout your

16:27

body, pulling the China shop, and then it goes into your liver

16:29

and your liver very effectively and quickly

16:32

detoxivize it using an acid all diode

16:34

dehydrogenase. So generally speaking,

16:36

that's part of what you're dealing with when you

16:38

drink. People

16:38

have listened for a while know that there's

16:40

kind of three things in the biotic world.

16:44

There's prebiotics, which

16:46

is stuff that feeds bacteria in

16:48

the body. Right? And I

16:50

tell you which ones to take and all that kind of stuff.

16:52

We've got lots of episodes about it.

16:54

There's probiotic, which is

16:56

certain species of back criteria that do things

16:58

you want them to do. And then there is

17:00

post biotic, which is compounds

17:02

made by bacteria in the gut, and you can take

17:04

some of those. Those famous ones like

17:06

spermidine, talked about on the show and and wrote about even

17:08

before it was commercially available in my

17:10

aging book. So there's those things.

17:12

It's the food for the bacteria, the bacteria

17:14

themselves, and let's call it the poop the bacteria. Those are

17:16

the three things we have to play with in the microbiome.

17:19

And what you're saying is that

17:21

alcohol itself when we absorb

17:24

it isn't that big of a deal

17:26

because our liver's got that covered. But when

17:28

the alcohol functions as a

17:30

prebiotic in

17:32

the colon, that's when things

17:34

get really shitty. That's a And

17:36

very easy way to determine the colon,

17:39

make really bad levels of stuff that cause

17:41

most of the damage from drinking. Mhmm. Yeah. Well,

17:43

that's a

17:43

really interesting way to phrase to look at to

17:45

think of alcohol sort of as a probiotic. I

17:47

think that it may, like,

17:50

microbiologists might be upset by color because

17:52

it's probably not necessarily feeding

17:54

the microbes, which traditionally is gonna but

17:56

but you're right, it's the same principle, right, that,

17:58

like, it's an input to microbiome and

18:00

then PhD acetaldehyde is the output, which

18:02

is what we traditionally think of as a post

18:04

biotic. And so it's true. That's exactly right.

18:07

And so we're basically like we take

18:09

a live probiotic bacteria

18:11

to try and change that output

18:13

of the microbiome, to change sort of the

18:16

postbiotic it's a it's a really good good

18:18

kind of technology.

18:19

That's what you did with zubiotic. When you

18:22

first pitched me on this idea, like, five years

18:24

ago, you're a tiny little company The

18:26

first VC I ever worked with, a guy named

18:28

Rick Bolinder. I haven't talked to him in

18:30

literally, like, twenty five years. He calls me and I was

18:32

like, Dave. I found this company. It's

18:34

gonna change the world. And it were

18:36

very early days. I think it was just you and another

18:38

friend working on it. And I'm

18:40

like, this is massive

18:42

because no one's ever done a specific

18:45

genetically engineered probiotic

18:49

that's going to change the output of

18:51

bacteria in the gut to take away the bad

18:53

stuff. This is

18:56

massively interesting. PhD what

18:58

you finally sent me? I mean, it's taken a while. I

19:00

tried something, like, years ago in a little

19:02

unlabeled vial -- Yeah. -- a lot of unlabeled

19:04

vials. But you got the full

19:06

on, like, pre alcohol probiotic

19:08

drink that is, yes, guys, it is genetically

19:10

engineered one hundred percent with no

19:13

shame to do stuff that your

19:15

bacteria cannot possibly do. Right?

19:17

So I'm gonna open it

19:19

up here because I didn't open it

19:21

ahead of time. Yes. I

19:23

have a pocket knife in my pocket almost all the time

19:26

unless I'm on an airplane because, well,

19:28

that's how you're supposed to do it. And

19:30

it's literally a

19:32

little shot. You take this.

19:34

It's got live bacteria. It doesn't have to be

19:36

refrigerated. Right? Mhmm. And we can talk about

19:38

live so you can have this. In your

19:40

bag, you drink it. PhD then

19:42

you are protected from

19:44

the acetaldehyde spike Drink

19:46

you drink. How long you drink? do

19:48

you have to consume zbiotic?

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20:56

long

20:58

before you drink do you have to consume z

21:01

biotic? So pretty much immediately for

21:03

Drink. So those are bacteria in there. And I know

21:05

in this sort of probiotics industry, there's sort

21:07

of this belief that if they're

21:09

really alive, then they have to be refrigerated. And

21:11

that's actually not through, it's really

21:13

just the commercially available probiotics we have now

21:16

will grow in a liquid and so you have to

21:18

refrigerate them to stop them from growing.

21:20

But we use a bacteria called bacillus

21:22

subtletis, which is a really common microbe. You

21:24

likely eat it already every day of your life.

21:26

It's ubiquitous in the environment. It's on fruits and

21:28

vegetables. also been intentionally used in the fermentation

21:31

of soybeans in in in natto and

21:33

kombucha and things like that. And so this is

21:35

a bacteria that is naturally evolved

21:38

to existing environment, and

21:40

it forms an endoscore, which

21:42

is a highly resilient basically

21:44

a hibernation state of the bacteria. Four forming. Right? It's a

21:46

four forming bacteria. So Zack it can tolerate

21:48

huge fluctuations in temperature. Like, it

21:50

can literally tolerate boiling water. It

21:53

can for a period of time and freezing conditions,

21:55

it can tolerate huge swings in pH, so

21:57

it can pass to your stomach acid unharmed

22:00

in that in the sort of in the

22:02

shell. And then once it

22:04

passes and so it's in the dormant state, which means it's

22:06

it's shelf stable room temperature, forever.

22:08

They've literally pulled Baccila spores from

22:10

ice flows that are a hundred thousand years

22:12

PhD, and then they're able to cultivate, they're

22:15

still alive. And so

22:17

once it passes through stomach acid,

22:19

it senses the conscious environment of the gut

22:21

PhD it wakes up. And then we've engineered

22:23

it to express the same enzyme, same type of enzyme

22:25

that your liver uses to break down acetaldehyde.

22:28

So the idea is really that we're delivering

22:30

to you a a live

22:32

bacteria that has been specifically engineered

22:34

to do one additional function. Right? We already

22:36

know that Bacillus is basically the

22:37

safest and most well studied bacteria on

22:40

the and then we engineered it to

22:42

just perform a single extra function which is to

22:44

express an enzyme that already exists in your

22:46

body. And we just moved it to where it

22:48

was important, which

22:48

is your gut. Do you

22:51

guys see how freaking cool this

22:53

is? One of the earlier

22:55

podcast episodes was about

22:57

or forming probiotics. I mean, I call them

22:59

armor plated probiotics

23:01

from outer space -- Mhmm. -- or something like that

23:03

was was the title of the episode.

23:06

because it was about this strain. And keep

23:08

in mind, guys, a strain can do

23:10

many many different things, even e coli. There's

23:12

good e coli. There's bad e coli. I

23:14

mean, there's there's thousands and sometimes tens

23:16

of thousands of different strains. What

23:19

you've done though is you've taken a well known

23:21

sportformer and you've given it a

23:24

new superpower. to handle alcohol in a way that

23:26

bacteria haven't done before. That's

23:28

okay. And your bottle?

23:30

It it says proudly Right.

23:33

Like, what a troll congrats

23:35

on the marketing behind that, by the way. Just as

23:37

a as a guys will and say, yes, you can upgrade

23:39

your own biology. People got really mad when I

23:41

started talking about biohacking, and they'll

23:43

probably get bad they'll

23:45

probably get mad at you for saying, probably,

23:47

Abbott, but there's no glyphosate. There's no farm.

23:50

There's nothing. You're doing it in

23:52

a specific bioreactor.

23:54

Now let me ask you this.

23:56

I'm gonna take this the next time I drink

23:58

and guys I don't drink very often in particular

24:00

because of this reason I would love to enjoy

24:02

sake a little bit more than I do.

24:05

and maybe even some wine, although I think wine has issues

24:07

with histamine and whatever. So I'm

24:09

gonna do that, and then

24:11

I'm gonna poop. That's

24:14

true.

24:14

What's gonna come out of me and what might the effects

24:16

of that be? I I hope you do. So

24:19

great. Great question.

24:21

fair point. Great question. And so

24:23

this is exactly right. So the idea around genetic

24:25

engineering. And so you mentioned earlier about

24:27

Terminator seeds. Right? Like the

24:29

seeds that that that

24:32

certain companies have developed that basically can't

24:34

reproduce. Right? And so the purpose of that is

24:36

to contain the genetically engineered

24:39

organism. It's obviously been then leveraged for for,

24:41

let's say, your business practice. But originally, that was sort of like

24:43

a safety check. Right? That, like, it couldn't

24:45

replicate in the environment. And and from that

24:47

perspective, it's actually a good thing. Right? So

24:49

you don't wanna build something that if it escapes

24:51

into the environment, it's gonna cause a problem.

24:53

And so that is a is a principle that

24:55

we started with its biotic. believing that,

24:57

like, exactly like you Zack, we're giving you a live, genetically

24:59

and gene probiotic that you're going to eat, and then

25:01

you're going to pass out into the environment. It's

25:04

definitively not contained. We strongly believe

25:06

it's probiotics that containment is

25:08

not AAA solution

25:10

because it is never going to be a hundred

25:12

percent. Right? Like, kind of, like, drastic park. Like, life

25:14

will always find a way. So

25:16

at the end of the day, containment is not

25:18

a successful strategy for moving

25:20

genetic engineering forward. You have to build

25:22

things that you are comfortable with going out into the environment. And

25:24

so in this case, what we did was we

25:26

didn't break any evolutionary boundaries. Right?

25:29

So seventy percent of all life on the

25:31

planet expresses anositol hydrogenase.

25:33

Many of the microbes that are already

25:35

in your gut make acid all the high dehydrogenases. So

25:38

what we're doing here is we're not introducing a

25:40

new function. We didn't take a

25:42

gene from a bacteria in, you know,

25:44

the Mariana trench and introduced it into a

25:46

microbe in your gut. Right? because that's sort of

25:48

crossing ecosystems that that wouldn't

25:50

normally be crossed. What we did was we just

25:52

ensured that you were getting enough of the

25:54

enzyme at the right time. So there's there

25:56

are assays all PhD IDIrogenesis already in

25:58

your gut, and they're just not necessarily turned

25:59

when you need them. They're turned on all the

26:02

time, and they're turned off. And the truth is, the

26:04

solar subtlest is, you know, interacts

26:06

with all kinds of microbes in the soil. They

26:08

also have that idea. acid

26:10

all the hydrogenases.

26:12

So

26:12

really there's no reason why expectation

26:14

that the cell cells hasn't had this gene in

26:16

its genome already. It doesn't it's not

26:18

introducing a new function into its ecosystem.

26:20

So we're really combining that's a really

26:23

that's a really big explanation.

26:25

And it's so important.

26:27

There's something called plasmid level

26:29

transfer. And this is a problem if

26:31

you're gonna take a jellyfish gene

26:33

that makes it talk sick venom

26:35

or rattlesnake venom or something and put it

26:37

in some kind of other thing that you're

26:39

gonna inject in people. And and no one's ever

26:41

done that before, that would

26:44

be untested, and that is

26:46

a Jurassic Park kind of scenario. Right.

26:48

Possibly. But what you're

26:50

saying is there's plenty of this

26:52

gene already available in other

26:54

Bacteria. So, bacteria will swap

26:56

superpowers with each other. But

26:59

if z biotic bacteria Zack to

27:01

swap with other bacteria. Those bacteria

27:03

already have this playing card. They already

27:05

have this superpower. it's

27:07

just not turned on at the right place in the gut. So

27:10

on top of that, the zibiotic

27:13

probiotics are programmed so that they can't

27:15

reproduce anyway. there won't be any cell division

27:17

they won't reproduce. And even if

27:19

they traded their special

27:21

powers here, it wouldn't be a big deal.

27:23

Well, that think it's a you have a double

27:25

safety thing, which certainly passes muster for

27:27

me, but I don't have a PhD in microbiology.

27:29

I just know how life works. And what I I think

27:31

I wanna sort of adjust that a little bit. Like so

27:33

the second part of that's absolutely true. Right? That

27:35

that transfer is not an issue here. And so

27:37

we removed unknown unknowns. like you

27:40

said, like, if you put in a gene that has

27:42

never seen that ecosystem before, you don't you

27:44

don't know if it's going to cause a problem.

27:46

But the as you described as a

27:48

superpower, is not a superpower for the bacteria.

27:50

doesn't provide the bacteria with any

27:52

advantage

27:52

because acetaldehyde is a very

27:54

it's a highly reactive and very unable

27:58

PhD therefore uncommon. It's

28:01

not it's not part of, like, an ecosystem

28:03

or an important nutrient. So, like, having

28:05

the ability to break down acetaldehyde is not something that gives you

28:07

a competitive advantage of bacteria. It's only

28:09

a super power for humans. So the fact That's

28:11

what I mean. Super power for humans.

28:14

it doesn't make the bacteria stronger against Bacteria.

28:16

saying -- Exactly. -- Zack so there's no competitive

28:18

advantage. Exactly. Zack cool. It happily will

28:20

transfer the PhD so you you mentioned plasmas,

28:22

which are of transferable elements of DNA.

28:24

And so there's also a lot of design principles we

28:27

do at Zibiotics to ensure that we're

28:29

not encouraging sort of

28:31

like unsafe genetics. So for instance, we

28:33

don't use antibiotic resistance

28:35

cassettes or other selection markers. We make

28:37

markerless, scar less mutations in

28:39

their only chromosomal meaning they're

28:41

on the gene, the the chromosome of

28:43

the bacteria, the the main genome of the Bacteria,

28:45

and they're not transferable.

28:47

Now, that doesn't mean that they can never

28:50

be transferred But the point is that if they are

28:52

transferred, they're not giving any competitive

28:54

advantage or exposing the bacteria to a

28:56

gene that they don't already see every day

28:58

anyway. So we broke no evolutionary

29:00

boundary. So we basically removed unknown

29:02

unknowns. We're not introducing anything new to the

29:04

ecosystem. And so there's that means there's a lot

29:06

of things that we could build that

29:08

we won't. by putting those guardrails on us

29:10

ourselves. We we ensure that

29:12

we are doing things that we know are

29:14

ecologically safe. And I think that's really

29:16

important. The mission that the bacteria don't

29:18

replicate is not true. They do. That's we

29:20

grow them up in a bioreactor. They will

29:22

replicate, but it's a bacteria that

29:24

Dasilcellus is extremely common ubiquitosfractory,

29:26

and it's only expressing an enzyme

29:28

not other fact that the ecosystem

29:30

already has. So there's no issue with

29:33

it, basically, being in the

29:35

environment and replicating because it's not introducing

29:37

anything new to that environment.

29:38

Got

29:40

it. So the alcohol

29:43

metabolizing gene in zbiotic

29:45

after you poop it out enters the sewage

29:47

system and all. The gene is not new to

29:49

the sewage system whatsoever. Exactly.

29:51

and those bacteria are not even likely

29:54

going to keep expressing it over time

29:56

because after they reproduce, there's an

29:58

alcohol present, there'd be no need to.

29:59

Zack right. Exactly that there's there's no issue with

30:02

acetaldehyde in the environment. So, you know, this this

30:04

gene is not providing any it isn't

30:06

changing anything, basically.

30:08

that's

30:08

fantastically interesting, which

30:10

means that if people when you go

30:12

out to drink, like Drink probably will

30:15

over the holidays, if you

30:17

do this, you're

30:19

likely going to have a lot less hangover the

30:21

next Dave. But maybe more

30:23

importantly, heart disease, cancer,

30:25

diabetes, all of which are

30:27

risk Zack for alcohol

30:29

will likely go down. I don't think

30:31

you've had a chance to do any studies on that,

30:33

but we know that acetaldehyde is

30:36

a pathway for all those things. So just

30:39

being someone who can look at, you know, if you punch

30:41

yourself in the face, there's no study, it's gonna

30:43

hurt. But you can probably

30:45

assume that if you don't punch yourself in

30:47

the face, it's better. So I

30:49

I'm gonna go via that kind of very advanced

30:52

PhD level logic that

30:54

says reducing this noxious chemical

30:56

when you drink is gonna reduce your

30:58

risks of metabolic harm

31:01

based diseases. So we're gonna do

31:03

some studies. What studies do you have on Yeah.

31:05

And I'm glad you brought that up. So we

31:07

very care you know, as a scientist, very careful

31:09

to not you know,

31:10

imply or make any claims of that variety.

31:12

Right? Like, yes, we know Afzalat is a highly

31:14

toxic molecule without a

31:17

But we can't say for certain that breaking

31:19

it down in the

31:21

gut is going to create any sort of

31:23

health advantages like that. Really, what we

31:25

focused on how you feel the next day. And

31:27

so had an hypothesis that

31:29

based on the fact that ass we know assa all

31:31

PhD reached how we got the body, and we know

31:33

that having lots of acetaldehyde

31:36

creates the symptoms that you feel the next day Dave

31:38

clear evidence of that. Right? But nobody PhD

31:40

sort of decoupled alcohol metabolism

31:42

from acetaldehyde PhD as before, especially

31:45

in the gut. And so the idea

31:47

was that if the gut is the major source of

31:49

acetaldehyde PhD we know that acetaldehyde

31:51

makes you feel like crap the next day,

31:53

then if we can have some effect

31:55

on gut derived acetaldehyde specifically,

31:57

we could make an improvement there. And so that's

31:59

really what we focus on. So our data is around

32:01

First and foremost, we showed that we built

32:03

a car that runs. Right? Like, we made a

32:06

bacteria that could express acid all

32:08

the hydrogenase at in

32:10

in that asset PhD, Ajay's enzyme could

32:12

break down asset ID at physiologically

32:14

relevant rates, meaning, like, We know

32:16

how much acetaldehyde you're likely gonna be exposed to. We know

32:18

how efficient this enzyme is at breaking down the

32:20

acetaldehyde and then we show that it can do that

32:23

in the gut environment.

32:26

So if we show all those things, okay, we built we built a

32:28

car that can run. Now the question becomes, does

32:30

do people wanna drive that car? Right? Does it

32:32

does it provide them the benefit that they want? Do they

32:34

feel better the next can they perceive that benefit?

32:36

And so we did a lot of internal testing

32:39

to determine that. Right? So if I'm gonna bring

32:41

the world's first ever genetically. And I I wanna

32:43

emphasize that. You you said earlier kind of how sort of

32:45

monumental technology events. It is the world's

32:47

first ever genetically engineered probiotic

32:49

to go to market. So I mentioned earlier

32:51

about Genentech

32:53

making sort of bacteria that can make insulin. But at the

32:55

end of the day, they bring the insulin to

32:57

market, not the engineered microbe. And

32:59

so we are actually the first company

33:01

ever to bring a live microbe that has

33:03

been engineered to market. And I think that that's an

33:06

exciting advancement. And

33:08

I think a lot of people are applying this

33:10

technology to the drug industry PhD when

33:12

people are sick, which is important. But the fact

33:14

is that the technology has a lot of

33:16

advantages and benefits I think

33:18

for healthy people as well who wanna be

33:20

healthier. Right? And that's our focus. Right? It's making

33:22

healthy people healthier. I think that's kind

33:24

of the whole point of kind of the

33:26

biohacker movement. that bringing these

33:28

technology can really be a huge tool in our

33:30

tool belt. It requires you to be

33:32

responsible. It's not gonna get that gel free card. Right? You have to make

33:34

good choices, drink responsibly, things like

33:36

that. But Ultimately, by

33:38

using genetic engineering, we can bring

33:40

this new function to your

33:42

gut reliably. And so we wanted to show

33:44

that that actually resulted in a benefit for

33:46

people. And so At the end of the day, do you feel

33:48

better the next day? Dave, that's a really important

33:50

question. And so we did a lot of things

33:52

internally to validate that that we were

33:54

biochemically creating that advantage. And

33:56

then we did a lot of

33:58

studies and and questions

34:00

and and gather a lot of data around

34:02

whether or not a consumer, a healthy consumer would

34:04

would perceive that benefit and would like that benefit

34:06

and we have a lot of data that's consistent with the hypothesis

34:09

that we're creating that benefit. So for

34:11

instance, we ask people Like,

34:13

there's all kinds of sort of,

34:15

like, intermediate biochemistry we can we can examine

34:17

and and there are a lot of things we PhD. But at the end of

34:19

the day, what matters is if we give

34:21

somebody the product and then we ask them the next day, do you feel better

34:24

than expected the same as expected or

34:26

worse than expected? Right? A very

34:28

simple perception. of

34:30

efficacy. Right? So if we objectively create a benefit, let's say

34:32

we say we make you feel fifty percent

34:35

better. Are you going to wake

34:37

up the next day and Dave, well,

34:39

I still feel something so the product didn't work. Or

34:41

you can wake up and say, wow, I feel better than I

34:43

thought I would. I this product

34:46

worked. That's an important question when you're giving it to people kind of in

34:48

their in a choice in their healthy

34:50

life. And so when we did

34:52

that study, It

34:54

was really interesting regardless of how many people we

34:56

gave the product to. It was always about ninety

34:58

four percent or ninety five percent of people who said

35:00

that they felt better than expected and perceived a

35:03

benefit that. And then now that on the market, we've sold hundreds

35:05

of thousands of bottles of the product, we

35:07

consistently see that that's the case customer satisfaction is

35:09

right around ninety five percent.

35:11

which really really high, especially for a

35:14

product kind of in in the food or supplement

35:16

space. So all that

35:18

data is consistent with hypothesis that we're providing a real -- that

35:20

breaking down gut acid allaglyde

35:22

actually provides a real benefit

35:24

for people. Abbott you

35:26

say a real benefit, feeling better. So

35:29

am I gonna go out and just

35:31

have, you know, three, four drinks? Drink

35:33

I take one beginning of the first drink? Do I take

35:35

one with every drink? How do I use it?

35:42

I'm

35:43

committed to doing everything in my power to

35:45

age backwards. And one of the big things I

35:47

do is cryotherapy. Brief

35:50

intense cold exposure increases

35:52

collagen production, PhD it blocks the

35:54

inflammatory enzymes and the hormones that

35:56

break down the collagen you already

35:58

have. Cold exposure increases your

35:59

production of antioxidants like glutathione

36:02

and PhD and it also causes

36:04

you to burn extra calories. And

36:06

when you can experience cryotherapy inside a

36:08

full body chamber, you get the benefits of

36:10

cold therapy on the

36:12

vagus nerve. which can give you endorphin and dopamine rush

36:14

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36:51

You're listening to the

36:54

human upgrade with Dave

36:56

Asbury. Am I gonna go out

36:58

and just have you know, three, four drinks. Do

37:00

I take one at the beginning of the first drink? Do

37:02

I take one with every drink? How do I use

37:04

it? Yeah. Yeah. So you take the product.

37:06

One

37:06

so that what's this is what's great about this technology, right,

37:08

is that we are delivering you a live

37:10

enzyme factory. That's gonna be functional the

37:12

entire time it's alive in your gut, which

37:14

is for most people this bacteria will

37:17

pass through your gotten about eighteen to twenty

37:19

four hours. So one bottle

37:22

of antibiotics that you before drinking will be actively

37:24

producing enzyme the entire time it's passing through

37:26

your gut. So all night long, you

37:28

know, regardless

37:30

of other sort of like you

37:32

don't have one drink or more than one

37:34

drink over the course of one hour

37:35

or ten hours, the bacteria are

37:38

good for essentially a whole day. and they're gonna be

37:40

producing that ends on the entire

37:42

time.

37:42

That is remarkable in

37:44

terms of changing quality of human

37:47

life. this is a

37:49

pro human use of

37:51

genetic engineering with what looks

37:53

like appropriate safeguards in

37:55

place. and the idea that you're gonna take a little vial or

37:57

something probably before you go out. It

37:59

doesn't mean that you should go out and drink

38:02

an extra four bottle of wine.

38:04

Right? Exactly. Zack are the

38:06

negative effects of alcohol you would expect

38:08

to still be there even though you've mitigated

38:10

this big problem with antibiotic? I love that

38:12

question because it's exactly, you know, look, this is

38:14

science, not science fiction. This isn't a

38:16

magical cure all. Right? Like, we are

38:18

dealing with gut derived acid all the high. When you

38:20

drink, you are dealing with sort of a

38:22

a symphony or really more like

38:24

a cacophony of all kinds of interesting

38:26

biology. Alcohol is a really interesting

38:28

molecule, creates a lot of

38:29

damage on its own. Right? So you're kind it's kind of the

38:32

story of two molecules that ethanol

38:34

and then you've got acetaldehyde. And

38:36

so ethanol creates all kinds of problems

38:38

on its own. It's That's the thing, right, when you think about

38:40

liver health, your liver is doing the bulk of

38:42

the metabolizing here. And so the dealing with the

38:45

toxicity, the ethanol itself, that's largely your

38:47

liver's job. And so this product is

38:49

not helping with ethanol in any way. It doesn't break

38:51

down alcohol at all. So you can't drink

38:53

more. You still get just as drunk and you still have

38:55

to deal with the toxicity of the ethanol

38:58

itself, which you know, in addition

39:00

to, you know, putting strain in your liver and in kidneys, it's, you know, one of the major things

39:02

I think that people notice

39:04

is that it creates poor sleep.

39:07

Ethanol itself does that. It binds PhD receptors in your brain and

39:10

creates sleep issues. So even if

39:12

you lay in bed for eight hours, you're gonna wake up and

39:14

you felt like feel like it only lasts

39:16

for maybe one or two because you really didn't get the

39:18

deepest levels of sleep. And

39:20

that's all ethanol. Acetaldehyde

39:22

now kind of reetopic at the body and create some

39:25

of that that real deep misery that you

39:27

feel the next Dave. You know?

39:29

And so we're really dealing

39:31

with but, you may wake up the

39:33

next day depending on how much you drink PhD feel groggy because you

39:35

didn't sleep well, you know, maybe have

39:37

a slight headache or things

39:39

like that. But The good news is that, like,

39:41

that's sort of just kind of the veneer of sort of some of the symptoms that you might

39:43

feel if you've been drinking. They're easily

39:46

dealt with

39:48

you know, some bulletproof coffee and and and to get breakfast

39:50

basically, like a little bit of caffeine or something

39:52

like that. And so this is not to

39:54

get that gel free card. It's not go out and drink

39:56

as much as you want it. I'm

39:58

talking to

39:58

this audience specifically, I think, is a great

39:59

audience. Right? People Upgrade are trying to

40:02

optimize. So you're already putting

40:04

in place several things

40:06

that are healthy and responsible. Right?

40:08

You're probably, you know, not drinking on

40:10

empty stomach. You're pacing

40:12

yourself. You're mixing in water

40:14

between your drinks Drink you're making

40:16

sure that most importantly, I

40:18

think this is the least appreciated thing is

40:20

that is

40:22

sleep, is if you stop

40:24

if you go to bed with

40:26

your blood alcohol content at zero, you'll

40:28

get good sleep. You'll be dealing with the effects

40:30

of the outside eye, which we're trying to help with, but

40:32

you get sleep. So it is like stop drinking earlier in

40:34

the night. I think it's like a huge a huge thing

40:36

as well. So if you do all of those things,

40:40

and and then Zibox helps you with the acetaldehyde, then you're gonna wake

40:42

up and you're gonna be able to follow through on

40:44

all the other healthy routines and habits you have in

40:46

your life. And that's what's important. It's not

40:48

about enabling the drinking. The drinking

40:50

is the kind of thing that, as you said Dave,

40:52

just, you know, PhD people do. And that's

40:54

that's fine. That's it can be part of

40:56

a healthy social and psychological behavior. if

40:58

done a moderation and done responsibly. Right? But it can

41:01

then interfere with your health routines the next

41:03

day, like, you know, making Dave wanna

41:05

work out or socializing with friends or

41:07

it might be that And so that's what robotics is trying to preserve for

41:10

you is the ability to continue

41:12

with those

41:14

healthy habits. I think that it makes sense to do

41:15

the stuff that has been in the world of

41:18

biohacking since that very first

41:20

infographic I PhD out

41:22

there. like activated charcoal.

41:24

It doesn't do that much if

41:26

you're drinking pure vodka or Everclear,

41:28

which is pretty much all all

41:30

ethanol. And the more you distill it,

41:33

the more pure, the higher the proof, the

41:35

more it's just ethanol, which is responsible

41:37

for making you feel certainly, both the good

41:39

and the bad parts of it. Activated

41:42

charcoal works for the alcohols that

41:44

have not been distilled,

41:46

like beer and wine. In particular, it makes

41:48

a really big difference there. and

41:50

alcohol may in all

41:52

circumstances work well with charcoal

41:54

because alcohol stresses other

41:56

bacteria in the gut as well.

41:58

PhD then they can make lipopolysaccharides, which are

42:00

bacterial defense or bacterial stress toxins, and activated

42:03

charcoal mop set up nicely. So

42:06

I like the idea of having some charcoal present, especially

42:08

with beer and wine, but I always

42:11

take someone I drink.

42:13

PhD

42:13

there's no reason you couldn't take charcoal. At

42:15

the same time, you take antibiotic

42:17

or maybe spaced out by a couple minutes, the

42:19

charcoal won't absorb the bacteria as

42:22

far as No. Not at all. There's no issue at taking anything with

42:24

antibiotics because say it's a bacteria you're

42:26

already eating every day. Anyway, we just engineered to

42:28

express this extra

42:30

enzyme. So Anything that's normally present in your diet activated charcoal, especially in

42:32

the quantities you'd be taking it

42:34

as a supplement would

42:34

definitely have no effect whatsoever on

42:37

on b cell alerts.

42:40

So

42:40

I would say I'm adding zbiotic

42:44

to my stack of things. If you're gonna drink, you should

42:46

take activated Drink, you should

42:48

take zbiotic, not

42:50

exactly at the same time as the excavator

42:52

charcoal, you might also want to take

42:54

glutathione in a lupusomal

42:56

form because glutathione helps

42:58

the liver detoxify

43:00

alcohol, and the liver is still doing

43:02

work. Right. Different path. You might as

43:04

well make it so it's easier to do the work. Exactly.

43:06

Yeah. And so that, and we we like we think about it like that.

43:08

We try to describe it that way. Right? This is a

43:10

tool for your toolbox. It's

43:12

not it's like now, you know, you get out of jail

43:14

free, you get to do whatever you want, and, you know, it's your

43:16

one cure all the layering on responsible house whatever they may be.

43:18

It's just, you know, if it's a supplement routine like you're

43:21

describing, I I think behavioral routines are

43:23

really important. They're also making

43:25

more mindful I think all those things are really important.

43:27

So we definitely encourage you to kind of

43:29

use PhD bags alongside other

43:31

things you already do is

43:33

as somebody who invest in your health and your

43:35

responsible behaviors? Does antibiotic change the

43:38

feeling you get when you drink alcohol?

43:40

Yes. No. That's exactly right. The PhD that that's,

43:44

you know, I think an important point as I made earlier is that, like, this affects

43:46

alcohol itself and ethanol

43:48

itself in no way. It does not affect your

43:50

ability to metabolize

43:52

ethanol. So you have to still know your limits. You have to drink responsibly.

43:54

All those things are still important because it's not

43:56

gonna affect the way you the way you get because So you

43:58

get just as buzz. Do you get just as

43:59

drunk when

44:02

you are on zibiotic or when you're not on zibiotic, you just

44:04

don't pay for it with the aging

44:06

and all the other bad things

44:10

that happen when alcohol meets bacteria in your Bacteria

44:12

dealing with the downstream metabolic

44:14

product of ethanol. So after ethanol's

44:16

already been

44:18

metabolized, Like, that's that's when Zibataz comes in. So so your

44:20

intelligent ethanol has not changed at all. Howard

44:23

Bauchner: I'm remembering, over

44:25

the last couple of years, there

44:28

is this one weird company with probably

44:31

slightly demonic ownership. And they

44:33

swore up and down that

44:35

if you introduced a genetically

44:38

engineered compound into the shoulder

44:40

muscle. It would magically stay in the

44:42

shoulder muscle and not move elsewhere in

44:44

the body even though studies showed that

44:46

it did. how

44:47

do we know that

44:50

zbiotic stays in the gut? So that's actually a

44:52

really important point is that, like, the

44:54

that we specifically to I think that this is a

44:56

huge problem and I you know, I wish we could

44:58

go for another hour and talk about the microbiome because

45:00

I think that's actually what's really, really interesting. And

45:03

one of the so at Zibiotics, one of the things I

45:05

started with was, like, was really around the principle of

45:07

being as simple as possible. Right? Like, we

45:09

start with a simple biochemical

45:12

reaction, a single enzyme breaking down a single molecule that we

45:14

know is present in the gut. Right? Like, you can

45:16

do a lot of complex interesting things with

45:19

genetic engineering, but keeping it simple means less

45:21

things to break. And another aspect of that simplicity

45:23

is around the idea of like, it's

45:25

this extremely complex microbial community in your

45:28

gut. Right?

45:30

And PhD probiotics as they currently exist today are predicated

45:32

on the idea that somehow you're

45:35

going to interact in some

45:38

beneficial way with with your microbial

45:40

community, which quite frankly as a microbiologist I can

45:42

tell you is not a very strong

45:44

hypothesis. So your microbiome today, Dave, and mine are

45:46

very, very different. And yours today and yours

45:48

in five months will be very different. So the idea that this

45:50

one is like silver bullet microbe that can come

45:52

in PhD

45:54

positively affect everybody's microbiome the same

45:56

is unlikely. So what what

45:58

antibiotics is actually, you know, the fact that

46:01

the probiotic is incidental, that's a vastey

46:03

for a biological function. And so we really

46:06

sidestep all of the complexity of the

46:08

microbiome by ensuring that the bacteria

46:10

actually Zack choosing a bacteria that

46:12

actually doesn't seed the microbiome or or really have to interact

46:14

with the microbiome in any way. This

46:16

bacteria is just known to pass

46:18

your gut

46:20

in about eighteen to twenty four hours for most people.

46:22

And there's good data to kinda support that. And

46:24

so there's not really PhD, you know,

46:26

you've got transit times are not gonna

46:29

vary that much. And so it's not gonna see the guide. It's not

46:31

gonna interact in the microbiome. And it's just

46:34

gonna float down the river. And while it's floating down the

46:36

river, we've

46:38

engineered to make sure that it definitively, reliably will express

46:40

our enzyme, the acetaldehyde dehydrogenase. And

46:42

so as it gets as it floats on

46:44

the river and the acetaldehyde is in that river,

46:47

it's going to passively diffuse through the

46:49

bacterial membrane, which is another innovation

46:51

we did to make sure that we

46:53

got reliable consistent results.

46:55

And so it'll deal with outside the head in the gut as it's

46:58

passing through, and then you'll pass it out the other side. And

47:00

so then if you're gonna drink on Friday night

47:02

PhD then again on Saturday night, you

47:04

have to take another antibiotics because we specifically chose a

47:06

bacteria that doesn't seem to get, which I think is

47:08

actually a very important safety point that

47:11

trying to muscle your way in to a very

47:13

delicate ecosystem, which is your microbiome,

47:16

is a bad idea. It can create That

47:18

would be an invasive species if you've

47:20

engineered it that way. Exactly. And so we we

47:22

picked a bacteria that we know has loves

47:24

to engage with the microbiome and just pass

47:26

right through. It's some of you eat already

47:28

every day of your life. So really, we I can say, we

47:30

tried to create something that was changed

47:32

so little that that we

47:34

weren't introducing any unknowns. We we

47:37

we three billion years of natural evolution of the bacteria and

47:39

one hundred and fifty million years of evolution of the bacteria

47:42

with the gut Bacteria human human gut

47:44

microbiome, humanoid

47:46

got microbiome, Right? So all these things we didn't change, we just piggyback on something that already

47:48

happening with one single enzyme that performs

47:50

one function. So it's really a delivery of

47:52

a new biological function, which is

47:55

why I'm so excited about the category of

47:57

genetically engineered probiotics because there are

47:59

so many biological functions, any biological function

48:01

on the planet, right? Theoretically, we can

48:03

program into bacteria then not then you

48:05

can temporarily eat the bacteria and then

48:08

temporarily gain that function.

48:10

Now we won't do every biological function

48:12

because there's there's risks with that nature. But but even if you narrow

48:14

that field down to like a small

48:16

number, there's so much incredible

48:18

benefit you

48:20

can create. by introducing these biological functions in the gut where you

48:22

know that there are issues. Howard

48:24

Bauchner: I can see this future, and

48:25

it's better than the one we have

48:27

right now. And

48:30

Yeah. We engineered some microbes. We've been doing it for a long time. We

48:32

just never took them as probiotics because no

48:34

one had the guts to do it.

48:37

So thank you. I appreciate that you

48:39

did. I thank you so much. I I exactly.

48:41

I think you're paying. That's exactly the vision that we

48:43

see the future as well. Right? Is

48:45

that and I'm gonna something kind of bold here, and

48:47

I think controversial in theory, but, like, you

48:49

know, if you let me explain myself, I think that you'll

48:51

see that. Actually,

48:54

assuming you use

48:54

good engineering practices, engineering microbe

48:56

to perform the function is actually

49:00

safer than scouring safer and more efficient and scouring

49:02

nature to find a strain that does it naturally.

49:04

And and here's why. I know

49:06

it sounds like,

49:08

counterintuitive. But if you

49:10

say so, you know, you use farm extremity

49:12

as examples. So you scour nature, you try to find

49:14

a Bacteria, that can make

49:16

experimenting. But you Abbott any of the things that that

49:18

bacteria does is that Bacteria

49:20

e. Does it produce surfactants Zack

49:22

you said like LPS, you know, bacteria

49:24

toxins, all kinds of things. So you're basically gonna take that bacteria that we know nothing Abbott,

49:27

and then you're gonna have to try and characterize its

49:29

safety so that you can get that one

49:31

function that you want. Right?

49:33

And so there's countless examples in

49:36

nature. People think of nature as safe. Nature is

49:38

extremely dangerous. Right? Like, all of our

49:40

diseases and and all the poisons come

49:42

from plants. Like, this is that's that's a very

49:44

dangerous place to be. Oh, yeah. So it it's

49:46

so safe. Just walk outside and eat something. You

49:48

gotta see how you do. Whatever dirt

49:50

or plant. It's gonna just trash you.

49:52

Right. So nature of itself is

49:54

is is dangerous. And we have to kind of

49:56

filter that and make sure that we find things are safe. So

49:58

and currently, that's kind of where the technology

50:00

was and the seventeen hundreds, which

50:02

apparently if you wanna go back to, right, is that you take

50:04

something that's that's natural PhD then

50:06

you hope it's safe because it's natural. But what I would

50:08

argue is that if we start with

50:10

something that we have already

50:12

extremely well characterized to know to be so

50:14

Bacillus Suttles being the safest bacteria on

50:16

the planet, the second probably best studied

50:18

organism in existence besides E.

50:20

coli. And we know that bacteria is

50:22

safe. And then we engineer

50:24

it to do one specific function that we also know to

50:26

be safe then now we have we are leaning on decades of

50:28

safety data already as opposed to starting from

50:30

scratch or something we've isolated from the environment.

50:34

So engineering becomes a way

50:36

if, like I say, if done responsibly, and right,

50:38

there's big caveats to that. Right? We we talked

50:40

about ways that engineering can be done

50:42

responsibly, but if Dave an

50:44

engineer microbe can be better

50:46

characterized, better, like, less

50:48

unknowns to your to your human

50:50

health, safer, more efficient,

50:52

more effective and, you know, essentially something that we can rely

50:54

on better. And so I envisioning, that's that's, you

50:56

know, the ProLogemo thing isn't a gimmick.

50:58

Right? That's

51:00

because I believe strongly in the fact that genetically engine genetic engineering

51:02

makes the product better. And it's better

51:04

for you. Right? Like, so we're not if you walk into

51:06

a store and you have a choice between GMO,

51:09

corn and non GMO corn, there's no benefit

51:11

to you to take the GMO corn. Right? The

51:13

GMO corn is for the farmer. Right. It's not

51:16

for you, the user. Right? So we use engineering

51:18

to create a benefit for you, the user.

51:20

And I think that's a really important

51:22

difference. Right? And so the fact is

51:24

that we're about the fact of his jacket during because we created

51:27

something that did not exist before. You cannot

51:29

get this product somewhere else. It's not this

51:31

function didn't exist. We did that. And so

51:33

genetic engineering has Dave that possible. And

51:36

so I'm very proud of that. And I think that

51:38

people should be excited about that. We were applying

51:40

technology in a responsible way that creates real

51:42

benefits. So I have the same vision as you

51:44

that we walk into a grocery store ten years from

51:46

now PhD we look for the genetically engineered

51:48

probiotics because they've demonstrated

51:50

to be more effective, safer. And as long as I

51:52

say, we do these things responsibly. And so we're

51:54

working on advocating for clear and

51:56

transparent regulations around genetically

51:58

and

51:59

genome microgrubs. So that we all can can operate in sort of a safe sandbox. And

52:02

I think that's another really important thing again that

52:04

I

52:04

could talk for another hour about. But, ultimately,

52:06

that's an exciting feature that we're

52:09

trying to create. for me, I think that

52:12

regulation, it's not that inherently can't

52:14

be trusted. It's not like, especially when

52:16

it's reactive Zack political,

52:18

then then then incentives are

52:20

not aligned. And so I think

52:22

that this is an important point in

52:24

nexus for us as a as a as

52:26

a kind of growing new category of genetically

52:28

engineered microbes specifically is that if we can establish

52:30

scientific and rational regulations

52:32

now, then ahead

52:34

of sort of a Wild West scenario

52:38

where or stuffs all the place. And then there's sort of like a fear based

52:40

reactionary kind of or

52:42

or or to your point, or, you know, I I think there are

52:44

many different kind of scenarios that that result in bad

52:46

regulation. So fear based

52:48

reaction reactionary political

52:50

or financially motivated kind

52:52

of like somebody wanting to exclude it. That that's what

52:54

happens a lot, right, is that you know, a lot innovation

52:56

get by little guys like like, like,

52:58

antibiotics. Right? Like, by small new

53:00

startup innovative companies get squashed by

53:02

the big players who have the money.

53:04

to go through the very bloated regulatory process and --

53:06

Yes. -- clear regulation is important. I'm not saying that it

53:09

isn't. But ideally, it's done in

53:11

a way that that

53:14

guarantees safety and PhD

53:16

prevents both I say

53:18

especially unintentional bad actors,

53:20

you know, people who are trying to do good,

53:22

but but accidentally create something bad. Yeah. But then

53:24

but doesn't squash innovation. It allows

53:26

that sandbox to be there for

53:29

for everybody to kind of build great Upgrade.

53:32

Bauchner: It's funny

53:33

because regulations don't

53:36

stop bad actors. I mean, even if

53:38

Congress doesn't fund that kind of research,

53:40

you could still fund it and get away with it and

53:42

maybe even get, like, a little gold star for that.

53:44

That's precise.

53:46

So you know, telling bad people to stop doing stuff doesn't

53:48

matter. I want good people listening

53:50

to understand what bad people might do

53:52

so that we can see them doing it

53:55

Drink we can literally stop them by

53:57

taking hold of their throats because that's

53:59

how you stop people like that. There is no

54:01

other way. And then you can feed them their

54:03

own creations until their eyes turn

54:06

purple or whatever that happens. I don't even

54:08

know. But what I what I

54:10

do wanna know is that there is

54:12

a level of

54:14

industry regulation. Yeah. Where you guys

54:16

identify, don't do that, you know, gain

54:18

of function for negative things in

54:20

gut bacteria that might spread to humans would

54:22

just be

54:24

bad. So let's do let's not do that. I think there's a

54:26

very clear risk reward here. The

54:28

risk appears to be very, very low.

54:31

the reward appears to be very very high and you feel

54:33

it the next day. And in my mind, that's a

54:36

recipe for winter because if the reward is high

54:38

and you don't ever feel it, we don't really do

54:40

that as a species because we're lazy and there's a

54:42

reason we're lazy. It's to survive

54:44

famines. Right. That's all built into

54:46

our hardware. So anyway, I'm a fan of

54:48

Zebiotic. I am going to have some this evening. I'm going

54:50

out for sushi and I'm ordering sake. I

54:52

normally drink

54:54

maybe once every month or

54:56

two, and I like to make it older than I am,

54:58

it's going to be very good tonight.

55:00

I promise you that. And I'm going

55:02

to take zixabatic. Right? Before have it, PhD

55:04

I'll probably feel pretty good tomorrow morning, and that's PhD

55:07

whole point of it. Zach, thanks for

55:09

being willing to take a

55:11

really controversial but correct stand.

55:14

You're not doing it from a place of

55:16

making a ton of money. You're a PhD

55:19

microbiologist. You studied immune systems. You know what you're doing?

55:21

You're actually doing something good. I'm so stoked PhD I'm

55:24

so excited and I'm honored to have

55:26

an innovator in the field on for a

55:28

thousandth episode.

55:30

Thank you so much. Honestly, it's been hard to be on it. I love that takeaway.

55:32

That is that is the mission of the

55:34

company, is

55:35

to elevate the conversation, not

55:37

good or bad. And I think that this is really

55:39

the first of many for us. Right? Like, there's so

55:42

much good we can do with this tech. And I

55:44

think I'm really excited

55:46

about that. I'm also excited about

55:48

the opportunity to kind of move this

55:50

conversation forward. And so I love the

55:52

idea about not being programmed. You have a

55:54

savvy audience, and I think that they're they're smart enough to know that

55:56

that everything is there's there's

55:58

always, you know, two sides to every story. And

56:00

so I'm really excited to have been able

56:02

to chat with

56:03

you about it. One more question before we

56:05

go. I've got the three

56:08

pack here

56:10

of zbiotic and I've

56:12

got the whatever the heck pack this is, six

56:14

bottles and a dozen

56:16

bottles. How long does it

56:18

last? Because there's a code. You guys

56:20

use code Dave. If you would imagine, z

56:22

biotics, just the letters z biotics dot

56:24

com slash dave. Use code dave. Dave give

56:26

you fifteen percent off. But if I buy the and my percent

56:28

how long will it store? Yeah. I mean, so look,

56:30

as I said, the Bacteria Zack

56:33

sport, they'll last pretty

56:35

much forever. And so we put expiration or used

56:37

by day of eighteen months

56:39

from bottling, mostly because

56:42

they the seal on the cap over time could

56:44

degrade and, you know, whatever. So but, you know, it's good for a very long time. So

56:46

at least eighteen months, I'd say. Yeah.

56:49

at least eighteen months without refrigeration. And if you

56:51

toss them in the fridge, it's like it's gonna be years and

56:54

years if you really wanna Theoretically, we actually

56:56

advise you don't put it in the fridge

56:58

mostly because the bacteria when

57:00

they're gonna get colder, it can go into a

57:02

deeper kind of a hibernation

57:04

state. And so -- Okay. -- stages of room

57:06

temperature. That room temperature fast. Okay. But, you

57:08

know, fridge won't kill it or anything. It's just, you know, the your

57:10

yeah. optimal storage conditions is room

57:13

temperature. Yeah. Takes

57:13

longer to wake it up. Right. Gotcha. Yep. Alright, guys.

57:16

So order the twelve pack biotics

57:18

dot com slash dave. The reason you order twelve

57:20

of these is the next time you have a drink, you're

57:22

gonna have a drink with a friend.

57:24

You drink one, you give your friend one. You're probably gonna have a drink with several friends. You

57:26

will go through the twelve pack very

57:29

quickly, but it is an

57:32

amazing gift. just hey.

57:34

Take this little thing. Just trust me tomorrow morning.

57:36

You'll feel better. Do not go on a bender.

57:38

It's not good for you. Right. But I promise

57:40

you Christmas day, you're probably gonna have the egg nog.

57:42

By the way, the fat's a good thing to have

57:45

with it. That's fine. Sugar's probably not so

57:47

good. Have some zibiotic. Get it

57:49

for everyone in the house. Seriously,

57:52

the next day'll feel better. New Year's doesn't

57:54

have to be a zombie thing. And

57:56

this this is gonna help. And we'll get pick

57:58

up some glutathione, pick up some activated charcoal. There's all kinds of good stuff

58:00

out there. So you can have a

58:02

celebration. You can do the primitive

58:06

tribal alcohol thing we've always done. Maybe

58:08

don't do it all the time. And when you

58:10

do it, I am serious. I am not doing it

58:12

without antibiotic from here forward and

58:16

without charcoal without glutathione PhD all the stuff I've already taught you, this is a new

58:18

recommendation. c biotics dot

58:20

com slash dave and use

58:22

code dave save fifteen

58:24

percent, get the

58:25

big Zack, be done with it.

58:27

Zack, thanks for taking time right after Thanksgiving

58:30

to film. Upgrade collective. Thank you for being here. I hope you

58:32

enjoyed this. This is some cool shit. Like, this

58:34

is this is the future,

58:36

and it's happening. And part

58:38

of my

58:40

job is is to bring you this stuff before you're probably gonna about

58:42

it anywhere else. And this has

58:44

been on my radar for five years and wasn't ready

58:46

yet. And now it is.

58:48

So, yay, Thank

58:50

you so much. You're listening to

58:52

the Dave upgrade with Dave

58:54

Asbury.