0:01

You're listening to Be Human Upgrade with

0:03

Dave Aspirate. Formerly.

0:08

Bulletproof radio. Or

0:17

listening to the Human Upgrade

0:20

with esprit de is a

0:22

fun episode because I'm recording

0:24

it live here in South

0:26

Bay Area in California. my

0:28

old stomping grounds at The

0:30

Mind Pump Media Set, Studio

0:32

Recording and wherever you want

0:34

to call this place. That's

0:36

because I'm interviewing style. Skiset

0:39

manipulating sell the Stephano. They

0:42

don't sell these Stefano but

0:44

you ties with the. Store

0:48

everybody said this stuff in a

0:50

that or he goes that's all

0:52

right to sell these Definitely go

0:54

to America are I was this

0:56

a paranoid? It's like I say

0:58

god value something to fall know

1:00

my bad. So

1:03

it's actually fun to talk to you because

1:05

in the world by arguing when I was

1:08

with what groups are my trying to pull

1:10

together. What are

1:12

the people who are best at

1:15

controlling the human body? Control Neurobiology.

1:17

Your the longevity guys like

1:19

me, you've got the neuro

1:21

brain guys in special forces

1:24

and then you've got bodybuilders

1:26

and power lifters. It's

1:28

like the very best of the best. Oh

1:31

yeah, I want to remove this one's fat.

1:33

Do this with this hormone and maybe the

1:35

most edgy it is that it is in

1:37

that area. even more edgy than some longevity

1:40

stuff It when you look at the history

1:42

of what people are of and will do

1:44

for body building that you're a cool guy

1:46

because. Starting out

1:49

as a fourteen year olds is

1:51

skinny, seventy Ghaleb it fit and

1:53

at nineteen year and major top

1:55

trainer and in an age when

1:57

he started Mind Pump Media and

1:59

so. We've been growing a

2:01

meaningful business all around this

2:03

aspect of biohacking and fitness

2:06

and health. I want to

2:08

dig in on things you've learned and

2:10

especially what you've learned about resistance training because

2:13

you wrote a big book on it. My

2:17

passion is really about helping people through

2:20

fitness. Fitness was my

2:22

favorite hobby. I started personally working

2:25

out because I wasn't secure about my body. I

2:27

had some body image issues. I felt like I

2:29

was too skinny. I started lifting weights.

2:31

I fell in love with it because it was

2:34

something I could do to change myself, really

2:37

engulf myself in everything I could

2:39

learn about strength training and supplements

2:42

and diet. I even read

2:44

old Soviet studies on herbs and supplements

2:46

to train. The Soviets are awesome, aren't

2:48

they? Well, you mentioned bodybuilders and strength

2:50

athletes. The strength

2:53

sports, they had massive

2:55

government funding during the Cold War because you

2:57

had the Soviets versus the US and the

2:59

Soviets. Their studies were incredible

3:02

on how to develop. When

3:05

the Iron Curtain came down, their strength coaches came

3:07

over and now the whole world has benefited from

3:09

some of the stuff that they studied. They

3:11

studied everything from peptides to hormones

3:13

and different types of training,

3:15

programming, and diet. Bodybuilders

3:19

are the experimenters of the strength

3:21

training world. What

3:24

athletes now use for performance

3:27

enhancement, bodybuilders did way before.

3:29

We talk about anabolic steroids. It's just one

3:31

of them. There's many hormones and compounds that

3:33

they experimented with. I

3:36

always found that very fascinating. Now, I personally,

3:38

for my clients, really worked

3:40

with the everyday average person who

3:42

just wanted to become fit and healthy. And

3:44

so that's where I focused a lot of my

3:47

attention when it came to my career.

3:49

Personally, I love learning about that fringe

3:51

stuff. I always thought it was very

3:54

fascinating. Like I remember learning about there's

3:56

a compound from dynamite that bodybuilders found burned

3:58

a lot of body fat. could potentially

4:00

kill you. Just to give an example of some of

4:02

the DNP. Oh, DNP.

4:04

Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. So anyway, it's

4:07

a fascinating space. But where

4:09

I really put most of my efforts was trying

4:12

to figure out how to get the average person to

4:15

become fit and healthy and to stay consistent. In

4:18

the beginning of my career was how to get people results.

4:21

But halfway through, I realized that I needed

4:23

to spend more time on figuring out how to

4:25

get people to keep those results.

4:27

People lose weight all the time, but everybody gains it

4:29

back. People start a workout program,

4:31

but then they stop. People change their diets and then

4:33

they go back. And so the

4:35

back half of my career was really figuring

4:38

out how can I take the average person and

4:40

help them become consistent with something

4:42

that improves their health and fitness, at least

4:45

on the journey or at least considering it

4:47

and doing something that is

4:49

both effective but sustainable. And

4:51

so that became my passion for a long time. And

4:54

I wrote a book on strength training because

4:56

of all forms of exercise on a time

4:58

per time comparison,

5:01

apples to apples, the

5:04

returns you get on the time you spent with strength

5:07

training, all things being equal, just

5:09

far surpass any other form of exercise.

5:11

In fact, it's the most perfectly aligned

5:14

form of exercise for modern

5:17

life. If you look at

5:19

the ills of modern life,

5:21

from inactivity to hormone disruption to

5:23

access to food all the time, strength

5:26

training is really perfectly

5:29

positioned. And so the book I wrote

5:32

was the Resistance Training Revolution because I

5:34

believe that we're on the cusp

5:36

of this exercise revolution where strength

5:38

training becomes adopted as the main

5:41

form of exercise surpassing cardio,

5:44

which is how everybody believes you need to work

5:46

out to become fit and healthy. I

5:48

kind of look at cardio as like the

5:50

vegan diet. Like everyone says

5:52

you should do it, they all try to do it,

5:54

they all get weak and start whining. And

5:58

if you look at strength training, you get more and more

6:00

meaningful results for it like you get if

6:02

you eat a steak, but

6:04

you don't get if you eat a fake steak. And

6:07

I'm a little angry that when I was

6:09

a teenager and I'm really desperate to lose

6:11

weight that I bought a Cannondale and became

6:13

a roadie and ride in 20, 30 miles a day

6:15

in Albuquerque. I

6:19

never lost any weight doing that. But

6:22

I should have, but maybe it's because I just ate

6:24

one potato chip too many. And that

6:26

sort of thinking, it

6:29

almost feels like self abuse. I'm gonna

6:31

malnourish and like overstress myself. And

6:34

if you wanna get VO2 max, it'd be

6:36

cardio respiratory fitness. I'm all over doing that.

6:38

I just think endurance cardio is bad for

6:41

you over time. Well, it's any form of

6:43

activity done appropriately, we have to say appropriately,

6:45

right? Applied appropriately meaning for the individual, the

6:47

right intensity duration, whatever. And there's a lot

6:50

of factors that influence that. Sure. Or

6:52

better than nothing. Okay. That's a

6:54

fair point. You have to,

6:57

the human body is an adaptation machine. And

7:00

the way we adapt, a lot of it's been influenced

7:02

over how we evolve. If

7:04

you're constantly sending a signal to your

7:06

body that says, I'm moving a lot,

7:08

I don't need strength,

7:11

and I'm also consuming a little, your

7:13

body adapts to become more efficient. It's

7:15

no different than an AI car that changes

7:17

its engine and its fuel efficiency based on

7:20

your driving habits. So if I'm driving 300

7:23

miles a day at five miles an hour, my

7:25

car's gonna become extremely efficient with gasoline.

7:28

It's not gonna be very fast and powerful,

7:30

but it's gonna become very efficient. There was a study done that

7:33

I quote all the time, because it was one of the

7:35

first of its kind, where they

7:38

studied modern hunter-gatherers, the Hadza tribe. Right.

7:40

And they went down there and through really good

7:43

sophisticated testing, were able to test their metabolic rates.

7:46

And what they found was that these

7:48

modern hunter-gatherers, who they

7:50

move all the time in comparison to the average

7:52

person. I mean, hunting and gathering is far more

7:54

active in modern life, okay? No electronics, hunting is

7:57

like wounded animal, run after it until it gets

7:59

tired. drag it back, gathering, even the

8:01

resting positions are like in a squat, right? So

8:03

even the resting positions are active in comparison to

8:06

ours. They were burning similar

8:08

amounts of calories to the average Western

8:10

couch potato, and that

8:13

makes perfect sense if you understand evolution. Like if

8:15

I don't need much strength and I'm moving a

8:17

lot and there's not a lot of food, which

8:19

was how we evolved, my body

8:21

learns how to burn less calories. And so

8:23

I essentially teach my body to run off

8:25

less and less and less and less calories,

8:28

effectively slowing my metabolism down

8:30

while strength training sends a very different signal, especially

8:32

when you combine it with adequate

8:35

nutrition, protein and

8:37

nutrients and strength training, which strength

8:39

training doesn't burn a lot of

8:42

calories. And our strength training in comparison to an

8:44

hour cardio burns far less calories. But

8:47

the signal it sends is we need

8:49

strength. We need strength. We're

8:51

in danger. We need more muscle

8:53

and more strength. Oh, and by the way,

8:55

we're getting adequate nutrients. So don't worry about

8:58

becoming less efficient with calories. And

9:00

so what your body does is it says, oh, that's

9:02

the priority. Let's build more

9:04

muscle. Let's get a faster metabolism.

9:06

Let's speed up our metabolism. Now,

9:09

there's data. There's people that will say, oh, the science

9:11

shows a pound of muscle and we burn this many

9:13

calories or whatever. The human metabolism

9:15

is far more complex than that. Way more

9:17

complex. It's actually the second most

9:19

complex thing that we've identified is mammalian

9:22

metabolism, right? The human brain being the

9:24

most complex and your body can

9:26

become more or less efficient with the same amount of

9:28

lean body mass. If you send it a

9:31

certain amount of if you send it the right signals,

9:33

the right stimulus, and you move it towards building muscle,

9:36

your body learns how to burn more calories. You get

9:38

a faster metabolism, get more muscle, you become more

9:40

insulin sensitive. And

9:42

then the part that a lot of people don't that

9:45

aren't necessarily aware of is the environment that

9:47

your body needs to be produced to build

9:50

muscle through hormones is

9:52

a hormone profile that most people are looking for. So

9:55

if you want to send a signal that

9:58

tells your body to have a more youthful. hormone

10:00

profile, which is also known as an

10:02

anabolic hormone profile, strength,

10:04

training, adequate nutrition, good sleep does

10:06

that. And a lot of people

10:08

don't know that. So you get a lot of people trapped like you

10:10

were where they all need to lose weight. I

10:13

gotta go burn calories. I gotta do this manually. Oh, and

10:15

I gotta eat. It doesn't work. And

10:18

initially you lose some weight, but your body will

10:20

adapt. You'll plateau. And then you're

10:22

left with this. Eat less,

10:24

move more. Maybe you say, okay, I'm

10:26

going to do this even more. So now I'm working out five

10:28

days a week. And I'm eating 1500 calories

10:30

and he was a little bit more weight. And then you plateau again. And

10:33

you're like, what am I going to do now? Keep eating

10:35

less, keep moving more. And what happens if I miss a

10:37

week? And you can too,

10:40

but you feel like crap all the

10:42

time. Yes, because that type of

10:44

activity, when you're constantly telling your body to

10:46

become efficient with calories, it

10:49

is an anti active tissue

10:51

form of stimulus. Right. Strength

10:53

training is proactive tissue, pro muscle,

10:56

the side effect of which being, or the, the,

10:59

you know, offset effect being fat loss. When

11:01

I'm going anti tissue, people

11:04

listening might be like, what? That sounds crazy. No,

11:06

that it's super, the data on this is super clear. If

11:10

you diet and do

11:12

nothing, or if you diet and do cardio, half

11:15

the weight, almost of the weight that you

11:17

lose is muscle. Now your body's

11:19

not burning the muscle, but it's paring it down.

11:21

It's adapting. So you end up

11:23

smaller, same flabbiness.

11:27

Um, but now with the slower metabolism and

11:29

probably a worse hormone profile. And

11:31

if you follow that long enough, like you probably

11:33

did, you start to

11:35

really feel terrible. Just

11:37

monstrously terribly awful all the

11:40

time. Right. Whereas strength training,

11:42

you know, um, you

11:45

hear a lot of biohackers. I love, I love

11:47

the fact that you're, you're talking to me because

11:49

you're the guy that started it all. A lot

11:51

of biohackers like to talk about mitochondrial health, right?

11:53

Improving the healthier mitochondria. Um,

11:57

build some muscle, build some

11:59

muscle. One of the most effective

12:01

ways you can improve mitochondrial health and

12:03

insulin sensitivity. You've now just increased your

12:05

capacity to stork glycogen. Muscle

12:08

is very insulin sensitive. Strength

12:10

training increases androgen receptor density. You don't even

12:12

have to get more testosterone. If

12:14

you build muscle, you're more sensitive to the testosterone

12:17

that you currently have, but you probably

12:19

will raise it. You probably need to do both. Well,

12:21

my point is it's one step closer.

12:23

It'll make what you have go further.

12:26

That's right. Years ago, I

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14:46

There was an interesting study they

14:48

did on testosterone levels and muscle building. Of

14:51

course, this was all within range of what would be

14:53

considered okay or healthy, not the range that you would

14:55

go to the doctor and get, but I

14:57

think the range cut off was like 450

15:00

to 700 or something like that total, and

15:02

the free was pretty good. They

15:04

found that the testosterone levels were not a

15:07

great predictor of muscle growth. It was the

15:09

androgen receptor density that was a much better

15:11

predictor. That makes a lot of sense.

15:14

Yeah, it's a form of exercise

15:17

that hasn't been

15:19

sold well, unfortunately. Definitely not to

15:21

women. People

15:23

don't view it as a longevity tool. They're

15:26

starting to, but they haven't for a long

15:28

time. It's one of the most important longevity

15:31

tools at least to live

15:33

as long as you're supposed to. It

15:36

doesn't look like exercise has any ability to

15:38

extend your life, but

15:40

it does have the ability to keep you from being

15:43

sick when you're old. I

15:46

kind of take exception when you see guys like

15:48

Peter Atia saying the number one longevity thing you

15:50

can do is exercise. Actually

15:53

no, Peter's not a longevity doctor. He's

15:56

a die at your normal age doctor, but

15:59

be happy before you go. die and

16:01

I support that but it's not what we're

16:03

doing which is we're extending human lifespan by

16:05

20, 30, 40 years.

16:08

That's where the new science is at and

16:10

do you need muscle mass to do that

16:12

also? Yes you do but

16:14

I would argue that exercise isn't the most

16:16

important thing for longevity but it's important. It

16:18

is because here's the comparison that I'll use

16:20

right if you were to look at a

16:22

bunch of vitamin D deficient people and

16:25

then you gave them vitamin D you would say

16:27

vitamin D is a miracle drug. The

16:29

reality is you're comparing what's normal

16:32

to unhealthy. The reason

16:34

why strength training is connected

16:36

to longevity is not because

16:38

of its magical effects but rather

16:40

because it's offsetting all the negative crap

16:43

that you've been doing. So because we're inactive

16:45

we're not lifting heavy things, we don't eat

16:47

properly, we're weak and brittle. If

16:50

you get old, weak and brittle, you're gonna die sooner

16:52

than you're supposed to. Strength training allows

16:54

you to live as long as you're supposed to so

16:57

it's not going to backing up

16:59

what you're saying. It's only gonna take

17:01

you past your limit but it'll

17:03

prevent you from going short of it. Right

17:05

and you don't want to be unable to

17:07

move when you're older so I'm

17:10

all about having adequate muscle mass

17:12

for metabolism and functional

17:14

movement. Those are both necessary

17:16

for you to live to a ripe old age of

17:19

87 and if you want

17:21

to live to 187 it's gonna take

17:23

actual longevity science in

17:25

conjunction with exercise and good food and

17:28

all that. Totally. I think

17:30

it's a bit scary right now that Peter

17:33

and a couple others are saying well exercise is all

17:35

we can do because there's no hope of extending human

17:37

life. Actually no, we're doing it.

17:39

There's so much magical science which

17:42

means you're going to be able to continue

17:44

maintaining muscle mass when you're 120. Right

17:47

now you see a few people in their 80s even 100 who

17:49

have meaningful muscle mass and look at guys

17:51

like RFK. Like the guys

17:54

like he's totally got muscle and he's doing

17:56

pull-ups and push-ups in a way

17:58

that's unprecedented for someone who. Yeah, you

18:00

know you mentioned movement You

18:03

know that reminds me of a point I like to

18:05

make with strength training is that it's been there's this

18:07

myth around Building muscle

18:09

mass and strength that it can cause loss

18:12

of mobility and you get tight mobility

18:15

is Range of motion

18:17

with strength and stability. Mm-hmm.

18:19

So you can be very flexible But

18:22

we it's instability. That's like a baby.

18:25

Yep So as you get older One

18:27

of the best mobility tools you could have is

18:30

just to not lose strength or build some strength

18:32

It allows you to keep moving through these deep

18:34

ranges of motion reach up and grab something at

18:36

the top of the cupboard or You

18:38

know squat down and stand back up or get up

18:40

off the floor without having somebody help you

18:43

That's where mobility comes from not from

18:45

flexibility people think flexibility fix it is

18:47

a component of mobility But without

18:49

strength, it's it's actually quite it's instable. Oh,

18:51

it's totally true If you're so flexible, you

18:54

just bend over backwards and you can't get

18:56

back up. You did it wrong. That's right

18:58

And functional movement is something

19:00

that I've been very interested in Since

19:03

I wrote the first book on biohacking back in

19:05

the Bulletproof diet And I talked

19:07

about some of the very basic things you could do Like

19:10

you measure your arm length when you're bending over

19:12

past your toes But it's

19:15

been kind of a dark art and there's people who

19:17

are experts in functional movement Guys like

19:19

Kelly star it and you know, I've talked about it and

19:22

right now we're getting to

19:24

the point where we can use AI to help

19:26

do functional movement assessments because if someone's 50 and

19:30

They look like they're reasonably healthy, but their functional

19:32

movements all jacked up they're not going to enjoy

19:34

the rest of life unless you fix that and

19:36

that should be a top priority as Important

19:39

as adding muscle mass. Yeah. Well what happens

19:42

with the because it's all controlled by your

19:44

CNS, right? And there's a wonderful

19:46

feedback mechanisms with the human body That

19:49

tell your body What

19:51

is safe movement and what is unsafe movement

19:54

and what your body will do appropriate? Acceptors

19:56

man, they get away and it'll limit your

19:58

movement to what it considers to be be

20:00

safe and if you move outside of what is

20:02

considered safe, then

20:04

injury tends to occur. Now what's interesting

20:06

about this is if

20:09

you exercise and strengthen yourself

20:12

with the same planes of motion, same

20:14

exercises, you can actually offset the ratio

20:16

of strength from let's say sagittal

20:18

plane to frontal plane to the point where

20:20

you can actually increase your risk of injury. It's

20:23

almost like putting more horsepower than your car's frame

20:26

can withstand. So it's

20:28

also important when you exercise that you move

20:30

in multiple planes of motion, that you move

20:32

laterally front to back, that you

20:34

do all the different movements so that

20:36

you maintain balance while building strength. Otherwise, what

20:39

happens is you see this often with strength

20:41

athletes that compete in like a specific lift.

20:43

Like I just do the power

20:45

lifting, so bench, deadlift, squat, your silly

20:47

injuries because they lack lateral stability for example.

20:50

So they're so strong and so powerful in

20:53

this one range of motion that when they move in

20:55

an unexpected way, they generate a lot of power, their

20:58

stability can't support it, they end

21:00

up injuring themselves. So that balance is very important

21:02

but if you train properly, we create

21:05

workout programs. We have many workout

21:07

programs and they're really designed for people to go through each one

21:09

of them so that you end up training

21:12

the body in its entirety and

21:14

avoiding these types of things because a

21:16

lot of people will also start strength training

21:19

and they'll discover these amazing compound lifts and

21:21

they build so much muscle, then they stay

21:23

there and they neglect all the

21:26

other rotation and lateral

21:28

movement and all the stability movements and

21:31

they'll start to find five, six years later, why

21:33

am I becoming more injury prone? I thought I was supposed to be

21:35

less injury prone. So there's definitely science

21:38

to the programming of workouts that is important

21:40

to consider as well. But

21:42

once you do that, it's amazing. One of the other things,

21:45

just to address what you talk about, how you

21:47

say 20 minutes of exercise is what

21:49

you've done for your body. The

21:51

amount of strength training required to produce some

21:55

result is remarkably little. In

21:57

fact, there was... some

22:00

studies that showed that to prevent

22:02

muscle loss, and I even building muscle, to

22:04

prevent muscle loss, something like one session every

22:07

two weeks would be enough to

22:09

do it. So I mean, I want

22:11

more people to know this because one of the

22:13

biggest roadblocks to

22:16

people and their fitness or their

22:18

health and mobility is

22:20

they think they have to do it all the time. Which

22:24

you really don't, you

22:26

don't have to do it all the time. You do it smart and

22:28

you've got good workout programming. You don't.

22:31

Now there's benefit to moving every day, for sure.

22:33

Lots of benefit. But you don't

22:35

need a lot to get what people are

22:37

typically looking for when they think they need

22:39

to do four or five hours a week type of deal. I

22:42

love it that you're willing to say that. And look,

22:45

if you're a strength athlete,

22:47

if you're looking to be a fitness

22:49

competitor, you want to have well-rounded muscles

22:51

on every place you can have a muscle on your

22:53

body, it's gonna take more than 20 minutes a week.

22:56

And what I'm hoping people who never go

22:58

to the gym will hear in this and

23:00

all the other stuff in my latest book

23:03

as well, is look, that's

23:05

okay. If you don't want to

23:07

be one of that type of person doing

23:09

those things, then do enough to have just

23:12

quads and a butt and a chest

23:14

for the metabolic and aging benefits. And

23:17

that in and of itself is so easy

23:19

that you can do it and it'll help you do it if

23:21

you come into upgrade labs, go to any gym, then come, if someone

23:23

came into you and said I wanted to do that, you know exactly

23:25

what to do for them here. And

23:27

it would take you 20 minutes probably, right?

23:29

Well, I mean, you know, here's the benefits

23:31

of exercise. You have the stimulus for the adaptation, which

23:34

is what a lot of people are looking for. But

23:36

then there's a lot of benefits to just simply moving.

23:38

Oh yeah. Moving the body, there's good,

23:41

I mean, benefits for the mind. There are these

23:43

kind of immediate temporary effects that

23:45

you get every time you move. So there's a

23:47

long-term adaptation effects, but then there's just like, I

23:49

get up a move and you know, neurotransmitters

23:51

change and I get some hormonal changes

23:54

and I feel kind of uplifted and

23:56

movement does that. You know, the mind and the body

23:59

are intricately connected. So there's

24:01

also the just practicing movements. This

24:03

is a there's this also this misconception that

24:06

workouts need to be extremely intense to be

24:08

effective intensity is a factor

24:11

But you can and this is what I used to tell

24:13

my clients towards the back half of my career and I

24:16

became very successful doing This with consistency.

24:18

I said with their consistency I said

24:20

go to the gym a couple days a week and

24:22

practice for it for movements Treat

24:25

exercises like skills not as it means not

24:27

as a way to just a hammer my

24:29

legs, but it's a squat It's a

24:31

movement right. It's an overhead press. It's a movement

24:33

practice them Like a skill

24:35

which means you're not going to train them to absolute

24:37

fatigue You're just gonna practice and perfect them and

24:40

when people did that what they found was I have

24:42

more energy when I leave Then I did when I walked

24:44

in I don't get sore I feel good and

24:47

I'm getting more of the exercises than I did before That's

24:50

the man. I like to really communicate that

24:52

message to people I think

24:54

daily movements very important. So I'm always very careful

24:56

with the you only need this much But

24:59

to send those signals in motion. Yeah, you don't

25:01

need much at all but I

25:04

would say the best prescription that I've ever had

25:06

with clients was After

25:09

your breakfast lunch and dinner to

25:11

move for 10 minutes and that's 30

25:14

minutes of activity every day and it's it's

25:16

postprandial so you get the The glucose

25:18

benefits and a walk after meal

25:20

is is a really good thing or do 20

25:23

air squats you don't time for a walk It

25:26

goes come up and down off your heels

25:28

Yeah First get a cgm the continuous glucose

25:30

monitors a woman for a couple years and

25:32

you can tell every time you Every time you

25:34

do your the squats go for your walk your

25:37

blood sugar curve goes down and and it's actually

25:39

attached to something That you do three times a

25:41

day so one of the one of the things

25:43

that you really have to master as a trainer

25:45

or coach or How

25:47

to modify behaviors, you know,

25:49

we can know all the different Methods

25:51

and things you should do and I could write you a meal plan I

25:54

could tell you it work out and all but

25:56

really what you have to master and be

25:58

good at to be a really successful is

26:01

how do I get people to do this

26:03

and to do this forever? And

26:05

one of them is to attach movement to

26:07

things that they do anyway. So I could

26:09

tell you go do a 30 minute walk

26:11

every day, but I'm way

26:14

more effective in terms of consistency when I told

26:16

people walk for 10 minutes after breakfast, lunch and

26:18

dinner. Yep. Just

26:20

because it was attached to I ate breakfast, I ate lunch,

26:22

I ate dinner. You

26:25

know, my former wife

26:27

had a thing she would do. She would

26:29

put a butter MCT and matcha in the

26:31

blender. And then while the blender was

26:33

blending it, she would do squats.

26:35

Yeah. There you go. You're like

26:37

20 or 30 squats in while you're making

26:39

your smoothie in the morning. I thought that

26:41

was brilliant because you just build

26:43

it in. And so

26:46

for if you're listening to this, there's

26:48

a great number of athletes and people who

26:51

are really into working out who listen to

26:53

my show. And there's a

26:55

bunch of people who are saying, look, I actually don't have

26:57

time for all that. And I would

26:59

kind of like to do it. So guys, what's

27:01

the bare minimum you need to do to

27:04

live a long time? And this isn't going to

27:06

get you in shape to, you know,

27:08

go climb Mount Kilimanjaro, right? It's not going to

27:10

make you able to go, you know, get in

27:12

a big fight, but it'll give you

27:14

enough to have a working metabolism. And if you do

27:17

get in a fight, you'll probably survive. Right?

27:20

And my evidence for this is, oh,

27:23

two weeks ago, I

27:25

did one of those like weekend survival

27:28

things that included four

27:30

hours a day of BJJ, including

27:32

eight rounds of like full force,

27:34

no punching. You're struggling

27:36

for knives and guns, self-defense training kind of stuff.

27:39

So I don't know, two days in

27:41

a row of that, I

27:43

survived, I actually won some of the time. Right?

27:47

And I'm serious about my 20 minutes, but I'm

27:49

not just lifting stuff, I'm doing AI, manipulated

27:52

things and all the lab stuff. And

27:55

if you want to do more, more can

27:57

be better. Right? limit.

28:01

And what I found is when I was young,

28:03

I went way beyond the upper limit. Yeah, of

28:05

course. Right. You know, why, David was fuel. This

28:07

is what a lot of people run into. You

28:09

know, and this is again, getting to the behavior. People

28:13

don't work out because they

28:15

are caring for themselves. They're working out because

28:17

they hate themselves. Yeah, your

28:19

workouts become a punishment.

28:21

And in fact, at

28:23

first, it's cathartic. At first, it's cathartic to leave

28:26

the gym and feel like throwing up because I'm

28:28

fat or I'm gross or I'm whatever I'm inadequate.

28:30

But you're beating yourself

28:32

up is what you're doing and diet becomes restrictive

28:35

doesn't become nourishing because restrictive because you

28:38

hate yourself. Yep. So I have

28:40

to come from self care. So many guys you

28:42

break up with someone, you know, get get ripped.

28:46

You know, working out the stress.

28:48

Yeah. Yeah, the the looking at

28:50

it exercises nourishment

28:53

is a different view, especially for guys. Oh, yeah, you

28:55

if you go to the gym and you say to

28:57

yourself, I'm going to take care of myself right now,

28:59

you're more likely to train appropriately. If

29:01

you go to the gym and say I hate myself,

29:04

I'm gross. You're not going to listen to your body signals,

29:06

you're going to over probably overdo it. And,

29:10

and burn yourself out and cause yourself a lot of problems.

29:12

We I look I've worked in the fitness space. And

29:15

I'll tell you what, the fitness fanatics,

29:18

the fitness fanatics are the consistent ones, right? 9 out of 10 times

29:20

are doing too much. 9 out of 10

29:22

times when they come to me and say, why am I not

29:25

getting results? What's happening? I look at

29:27

everything like back way off and eat

29:29

more. And if they listen,

29:31

which half the time they do half the time they

29:33

don't, the results are

29:35

just remarkable, astounding. I've seen

29:37

over and over like, eat

29:40

more is especially women, like you're

29:42

undernourished, you're cold and tired and

29:44

anxious all the time because you're

29:46

starving. Yeah. And it's

29:49

profound what happens in just one or two days.

29:51

Yeah, yeah, we typically will reverse diet, someone's what

29:53

we'll do will slowly increase their calories, make

29:55

sure that their protein intake, bring

29:58

their volume of training way down eliminate

30:00

all cardio, I'll let them walk every day

30:02

and then you'll see their hormones

30:04

start to balance. They get their period back. Oh my god,

30:06

I feel amazing. I feel so strong. How

30:08

am I getting leaner? I'm eating more food and it's like

30:11

you're not fighting your body. You fight

30:13

your body, you're going to lose what's in it. But you

30:15

have to go into it with

30:18

the mentality of self-care. You have to otherwise

30:20

at some point you'll rebel against yourself. This

30:22

is why when people go off a diet,

30:26

they don't just eat one cookie, they eat a whole box. Because

30:28

the whole time they were saying I can't. They

30:30

were tyrannizing themselves. No,

30:33

at some point if you do this the right way and

30:35

you develop the right relationship, then

30:37

when someone offers you a cookie, you either say I want

30:39

one or I don't. And it's a

30:41

much different relationship and it breeds

30:43

balance is what it breeds. And that

30:45

was my biggest goal as always to and it

30:47

continues to be my biggest goal which is how

30:50

can I get the average person to

30:52

be able to do this some of the stuff consistently? Because you

30:55

know this, you're in the same space. The

30:57

default, you follow the rules, the

30:59

default is poor health. Mental

31:02

illness and poor health. That is the

31:04

default. Everything is telling people from

31:07

every angle to do things in a way

31:09

that's going to make them sick, fat,

31:12

and unhealthy. In fact, to

31:14

be healthy is, for lack of a better term,

31:16

an act of rebellion. You have to go against

31:19

the grain. And unfortunately,

31:21

our space is just as polluted. So much

31:23

bad information is coming out but these people

31:25

don't know which way to turn.

31:27

And I did that diet and I tried that and I took these pills

31:29

and it didn't work for me. And

31:32

so we're trying. We're

31:34

trying as hard as we can to get the right message out. I

31:37

was reading a blog post you wrote once where you

31:40

said vegans are bad people. Can

31:42

you tell? No, you didn't. But you thought you might

31:44

have which is what I needed to hear. No, I

31:46

think I think talking about the vegan diet, not vegans.

31:48

I just, guys, I love you. I know lots of

31:50

you listen to my show. I tease you because I

31:52

was a vegan too. Self-harm isn't

31:54

okay. And so I love you. Anyway, now

31:56

here's what's interesting about about veganism. If you

31:59

follow the. the consistency

32:01

with following a vegan diet, unless

32:04

a person is vegan for strong moral and ethical

32:06

reasons, right? If they literally believe like I am,

32:09

I don't not want to hurt an animal. But

32:11

then they're just bad at math. Well,

32:14

we can go there. But people

32:16

who believe it, right? They're like, I don't want to hurt

32:18

animals. Their consistency is different. But

32:20

the average person who becomes a vegan, their

32:23

consistency is like with any other diet, they fall right

32:25

off. Well, it's because it makes them sick. Yeah. Like

32:27

any diet, it's just you're not developing the right behaviors

32:29

and the right relationships with diet.

32:31

But the vegan diet, in

32:33

my strong opinion, and I'll back it up, the

32:36

way it's being promoted, especially

32:38

tying it to morality. And I

32:41

don't mean morality with animals, they've done that forever.

32:43

But morality with the environment and the earth and

32:45

all that bullshit, not only the bullshit, but it's

32:47

dangerous, Dave, because if you look

32:49

at the average Americans diet, a good,

32:52

you know, three quarters of it is

32:54

heavily processed foods. What

32:56

is the other quarter of it? Meat, eggs and milk.

32:59

You are going to convince millions

33:01

of Americans to go completely processed.

33:04

And if you don't think that's going to be an absolute devastating

33:07

travesty to the planet, not just

33:09

to humanity, you're fooling yourself.

33:12

I think you might be wrong about that. So

33:14

I just picked up a bunch of shares of

33:16

the big pharma companies. And so very clearly, if

33:19

everyone goes on all processed food, then I should

33:21

be able to make a ton of money on

33:23

my big pharma shares. So

33:26

maybe it's good for it. But it's so dumb

33:31

that every time you see that on the

33:33

news, or you see one of the animal

33:35

rights terrorist organizations promoting this in some way,

33:39

I'm starting to think, do they think we're

33:41

all that dumb? Because 90%

33:44

of the people I know who've been on vegan diets are not

33:46

on vegan diets because it made them sick. And

33:48

they lose muscle mass, they get kidney stones, they get all

33:50

these problems. And all that stuff happened to me, not the

33:52

kidney stones, but lots of the other oxalate

33:54

issues. And I just don't want people to go down

33:56

the same thing that I went down, whether or not

33:58

you're in the gym. worst thing though. Guy

34:02

says, Okay, new year new you, I'm gonna go

34:04

vegan. I'm gonna hit the gym every day. What's

34:06

gonna happen? You're gonna

34:08

have a tough time. I mean, it can be done. Here's

34:10

a deal. A

34:13

good diet needs to be is typically

34:15

well planned. Okay, a good vegan diet.

34:18

You you need to really plan the

34:20

hell out of it and piecemeal it

34:22

together with supplements and various,

34:24

you know, foods. So it's highly processed. It's

34:26

very difficult. It's very difficult to do. Can

34:28

you do it? Yes, it's far more difficult

34:31

than the average than than just an omnivore,

34:33

you know, quote unquote, lack of a term

34:35

balanced diet. You'd have to definitely

34:37

probably would want to supplement with protein. You

34:39

definitely want to take creatine. What's the

34:41

best vegan protein? Oh, you know, typically

34:44

a blend combination of things, you know, soy if

34:47

it's fermented can probably okay, I think too much

34:49

soy can cause problems. I know I just scared

34:51

I just like the oxalates

34:53

and soy. I'm like, okay, you know, yeah, I mean,

34:56

I know it's a trick question. But if you're a

34:58

vegan, there are some protein battles are better than others,

35:01

but they're not going to be as good as

35:03

your recommends defatted

35:05

hemp protein, the highest G it's lower excitement

35:09

to cast any oxalates, and maybe have some trust

35:11

me on that. It seems like the least

35:14

evil but brown rice protein and pea

35:17

protein are just garbage proteins compared to

35:19

even way in terms of bioavailability. It'll

35:22

be tough with a vegan diet. That's for sure. You're

35:24

behind the eight ball. But can it be done? Yes,

35:27

it can. You got plan the heck out of it. But

35:29

you'd be better off going with

35:31

a more omnivore approach, easily digestible

35:33

foods, your protein

35:35

targets, you know, you

35:37

write some some controversial stuff online, aside from

35:40

your take on vegan that you didn't actually

35:42

write that I put those words in your

35:44

mouth. Tell

35:48

me why carbs make you fat. But

35:51

they can. All right. So

35:53

yeah, we're going down this path. Okay, so all

35:56

right. Excess calories make you fat. All

35:58

right, everybody relax. I know it's complex

36:00

than that. But at the end of the day, okay,

36:03

calories in versus calories out is a real thing.

36:05

Now, what you eat and how you live and what

36:08

you do affects the calories out of

36:10

the form. That's why it's not as easy as just

36:12

counting calories. Carbohydrate. You can never count the

36:14

number of calories out, right? It's just, it's

36:16

constantly adjusting. Okay. So, calories out doesn't exist

36:19

unless you're in a calorie box? I, you

36:21

know, I would, I mean, that's a good,

36:23

that's a good way to put it. I

36:25

always aim to get somebody's metabolism to be,

36:27

to be faster, to get them

36:29

more insulin sensitive so they can eat more, not because they

36:31

need to eat more, but because they're surrounded by food. How

36:33

do you measure their metabolism to know if it's faster? You

36:36

know, without complicated equipment,

36:38

the best way to do it is simply track

36:40

and see if you're gaining losing weight. It's not

36:42

accurate, but it's about as good as you're going to

36:44

get. And so

36:46

you just track your calories. We, we will tell

36:48

you your basal metabolic rate when you come into

36:50

upgrade labs, but it's a $26,000 medical

36:53

device that's part of your intake. Right. So, you

36:55

know, but again, it doesn't matter because you'll never

36:57

know, was it lower height? Well,

36:59

was it cold outside today? That's right. Yeah. But that

37:01

changes. You get good sleep. Yeah. Bad sleep, you know,

37:03

or your bad mood or a good mood, you know,

37:05

type of deal. But carbohydrates are

37:07

not essential. So

37:09

that's the macronutrient that I

37:13

always encourage people to manipulate the most. You

37:15

don't need them like you do

37:17

with essential fats and proteins. Some

37:19

people do better with more carbohydrates. Other people

37:21

do better with less. Generally speaking though, generally

37:23

speaking, this isn't true for everybody, but generally

37:26

speaking, when you're looking for strength

37:28

in power, carbohydrates seem to be an

37:30

ally. When you're looking for mental sharpness

37:32

and cognitive performance, then you're better

37:35

off with lower carbohydrates, generally speaking. But there's,

37:37

I've seen exceptions of both. I

37:40

love that segmentation and

37:43

it works very well. I don't know a

37:45

lot of people who are keto, who

37:47

are lifting at their very max for long

37:49

periods of time. And in fact,

37:52

I remember one of the guys who loves to

37:54

copy my content. It was like, I'm going to

37:57

run the Kona marathon or

37:59

ultra. or marathon probably the Ironman in

38:02

ketosis. I'm like, don't do it. It's

38:04

gonna ruin your labs. So

38:07

he does that and of course it does ruin the labs.

38:09

The fact you can do it doesn't mean it's at all

38:11

good for you. So

38:13

I wouldn't mind starting in ketosis and switching

38:16

to carbs halfway through or something. And.

38:19

That's actually a smart approach. You know, Zach Bitter

38:21

talks about, he'll have some carbohydrates while he's racing

38:24

and he does ultra. That's what I've been advising

38:26

guys to do. I don't do that kind of racing, but I

38:28

know how metabolisms work. I manipulate my diet

38:31

based on what I'm looking for. If I'm gonna

38:33

do a round of podcasts or

38:35

I'm gonna do a big product launch and I wanna be sharp,

38:37

then I'll put myself in ketosis. If

38:39

I'm going to go try and hit a new PR in

38:41

the gym or do some workouts where I really wanna perform

38:44

really well or get a good pump or whatever, then

38:46

I'm gonna add some carbohydrates. But.

38:49

How many carbs a day do you eat on average? Even

38:51

when I add carbs are generally low. So at the highest I'll probably get to

38:53

200 at the most, And

38:56

then ketosis, I'll go as close to zero

38:58

as I possibly can. Cool. Yeah,

39:02

I definitely, you know, I've been fasting in

39:04

ketosis and MCT oil and I'll use some

39:06

of the liquid ketones, keto and

39:08

IQ on occasion. So I'm

39:10

regularly in ketosis, but I

39:13

don't seem to have a problem with carbs anymore. It used to

39:15

be a touch carbs to get fat, but once I fix my

39:17

metabolism all the way, if I'm getting

39:19

adequate protein, I'm carb proof.

39:21

I don't get fat from like, I

39:23

can eat 400 calories of carbs. Yeah.

39:26

Well, your insulin sensitivity is probably a lot better than

39:30

it used to be. And that's, there's

39:32

an order of operation when you first start on

39:35

a, you know, people would label a fitness journey.

39:38

And the first one is like, you got to really

39:40

optimize, get health, get your health. And

39:43

then go after the muscle gain and the aesthetics

39:45

and stuff like that. But even then I tell

39:47

people, if you pursue health, the

39:49

aesthetics always follow, right? Health

39:51

aesthetics are a reflection of health.

39:55

If you chase the look, a

39:57

lot of people tend to sacrifice for health in, in, in,

39:59

in, in. in pursuit of that and they get

40:01

neither one. So you did

40:03

the right order, right? So it's like, I wanna lose weight. Well, let

40:06

me look and see how can I really just improve my

40:08

overall health and not focus so much

40:10

on what the mirror shows or anything

40:12

like that. Let me just try and optimize my health.

40:14

Let me fix my gut health. Let me get my

40:16

sleep in order. Let me eat in a way

40:19

that just makes me feel good. Let me go to the gym and

40:21

leave the gym feeling better than I did when I walked in. And

40:24

that'll move you at least closer to

40:26

the right direction than I gotta get

40:28

this weight off right away or I wanna look a

40:30

certain way that tends to move people in the wrong

40:32

direction. You

40:34

can do crash weight loss things.

40:36

I remember I had a post a while

40:38

back. It was the rapid fat

40:41

loss protocol. How to lose weight faster than

40:43

you should because it's a

40:45

guaranteed recipe for brain fog. You

40:48

lose all the fat really fast and then all the

40:50

toxins end up going to your brain and you just

40:52

feel like crap even if you're in ketosis and it's

40:54

not worth it. No. No, what

40:56

you don't wanna do is teach your body

40:59

to become resistant to famines.

41:02

What this repeated starving

41:04

yourself over exercise. You

41:06

know, when I reverse diet people. So reverse

41:09

diet is when you take somebody and you

41:11

slowly increase calories, high protein, strength, train and

41:14

an attempt to speed up their metabolism. Okay, cause then what

41:16

happens is you get their metabolism. Here's

41:18

the theory and I've done it many times and many

41:20

strength coaches have done this. You get

41:22

their metabolism to a certain point and then you can cut their

41:24

calories, they get leaner. And now they're at a higher calorie intake

41:26

than they were when they first started and

41:28

they're lean. So it's easier place to maintain.

41:31

It's interesting. My daily

41:34

basic calorie requirement was as high

41:36

as 3,100 when

41:39

I was eating about 4,000 calories a day to

41:42

test out the Bulletproof diet. People are saying, you

41:44

did not? I'm like, no, I did. Oftentimes more.

41:46

And I was forcing myself to eat more than

41:48

I wanted. And now it's around

41:50

2,200. And I

41:53

don't eat as much as I did back then. And

41:55

I think there's a longevity argument for eating

41:57

less as long as you still have enough.

42:00

muscle mass and we're still figuring that out. But

42:03

it's very interesting. Eat more,

42:05

increase your caloric burn. So this is

42:07

a particular type of person. So this

42:09

is a person that comes to me,

42:12

their body's just resistant to fat loss.

42:14

They've been tracking, they're tracking their calories.

42:16

Let's say it's a guy, a 45

42:18

year old male, needs

42:21

to lose 40 pounds. He's

42:23

tracking his calories, he's eating 1800 calories a day. He's

42:27

not losing weight, he's doing cardio almost every single day.

42:30

Let's build up your metabolism because cutting from 1800 is

42:32

gonna be, we're gonna end up

42:34

a thousand. So we'll do that. We'll

42:37

reverse diet, get them to a point where for

42:39

them they feel good cutting from and

42:41

then let's get you to drop calories. But the

42:43

point with that is the people that I've

42:45

worked with who crash diet, gain it back,

42:48

crash diet, gain it back, that

42:50

getting the metabolism to start to respond to the positive

42:52

takes longer. And I think the body, I don't know

42:54

if it's the central nervous system has a memory, like,

42:57

hey, no, we're too scared

42:59

to burn more calories. We're gonna remain as efficient

43:01

as possible. So there's been times when

43:03

I've worked with people where it's taken us a

43:05

year of slowly getting their metabolism back in order

43:08

before we could start the cut. Usually

43:11

it's a three month process or something like that. So

43:13

interesting. So

43:16

tell me why people need at least one gram

43:18

of protein per pound of body weight. So

43:20

the studies will show quite clearly that

43:23

a high protein diet, regardless

43:25

of the kind of diet you're on, regardless of your goals, will

43:29

give you better results. So whether you wanna lose fat,

43:31

you'll lose more body fat. If you wanna build muscle,

43:33

you'll build more muscle. If you want better

43:36

insulin sensitivity, you'll get better insulin sensitivity. By

43:38

eating a high protein diet. Now, high protein

43:41

in the studies, there's an upper limit in

43:44

the sense of any more than this doesn't seem to

43:46

reap any more benefit. And the range

43:48

in the studies is between 0.6 to 0.8

43:51

grams per

43:55

pound of lean body mass, okay?

43:57

So I tell people aim for a gram. per

44:00

pound of target body weight, because you're probably gonna cover

44:02

the basis. Target body weight being where you want your

44:05

body weight to be because if you're

44:07

100 pounds overweight, obviously don't eat your current body

44:09

weight. And that seems to be

44:11

a nice general easy number for people to-

44:13

So one gram per pound of body weight.

44:15

Essentially. And if you hit that and you eat

44:17

it first, you know, if you look

44:20

at the CGM data, eat high protein

44:22

breakfast, it affects your blood sugar positively for the

44:24

rest of the day, or eat high protein meals,

44:27

it's also very satiating. So you

44:29

tend to eat less as a result.

44:32

And even when calories are controlled, it

44:35

results in more fat loss. So they've done studies like that

44:37

where the calories are the same, one's high

44:39

protein, one isn't, you get more fat loss. It seems

44:41

obvious because 30% of protein gets

44:43

consumed to burn the protein. 30%

44:46

of the calories do. Permagenic effect, or pro muscle

44:48

building effect, or something like that. Yeah, it always

44:50

makes you laugh when, it

44:52

doesn't matter how many calories are in the food, it

44:54

matters how many calories your body gets from the food

44:56

after it's digested. And they never control for that. And

44:59

the calories in, calories out stuff, which is one of the reasons it's

45:02

not, in my experience, very useful for

45:04

people. Plus metabolism's so malleable. I mean,

45:07

you could take somebody and just put

45:09

them on exogenous

45:11

hormones, and you'll radically change

45:13

their metabolism without them doing anything

45:15

but getting these new signals in their body.

45:18

So it can change quite a

45:20

bit, it can change from your stress level. Lack

45:23

of sleep the night before. Lack of sleep the night before.

45:25

Metabolism's trashed. Makes, yeah, and you'll notice, you'll notice it. You'll

45:27

notice the folder, everybody doesn't wanna generate as much heat, energy

45:30

changes. So, you know, the

45:32

goal for me has always been, how can

45:34

they, only because, and you said eating more

45:37

for longevity. You're right. If

45:39

you look at longevity studies, eating

45:42

less and doing better on less is better. However,

45:44

here's what we're juggling. What we're

45:46

juggling is people, the average

45:48

person lives in a modern

45:50

society. And when you look

45:53

at studies on food, there's

45:55

foods that are healthier, foods that are less healthy.

45:57

But when you're burning more than you're taking in,

46:00

A lot of that is actually gone. Now

46:03

you still get some negative effects, but you

46:05

handle, like you'll see the studies where you'll get, you'll get,

46:07

and I hate these studies because they oversimplify things, but they'll

46:09

be like, I ate simple

46:11

sugars and whatever every single day, but

46:13

I ate, I lost weight and

46:16

my blood markers improved. Well part

46:18

of that's true. If you burn more calories

46:20

than you take in, you actually take

46:22

care of a lot of the negative effects, not all of

46:24

them, but some of them. So

46:26

a faster metabolism in a

46:28

modern society is

46:31

for most people to benefit, to be able to

46:33

burn more calories because it allows them to eat

46:36

more, which unfortunately is just, it's hard not

46:38

to eat more when you're, you

46:40

know, when you got DoorDash. Yeah

46:43

it does make it hard. I

46:46

found that one gram per pound of body weight

46:48

works really well for me. And

46:51

in my longevity book, the lower limit

46:53

of 0.6 grams,

46:55

there's a cluster of longevity data around

46:58

that, but everyone

47:00

who does that, as far as I can

47:02

tell, gets sarcopenia or muscle loss, which is

47:04

bad for lung, actually it's bad for reaching

47:06

a normal age and it probably

47:09

doesn't have that big of an effect on extending

47:11

human life now, but you still need to have

47:13

the muscle. So I think

47:15

the 0.8 to 1 is the sweet spot from

47:17

everything I've seen. That's

47:22

what I've experienced in my career as well.

47:24

And there's also quality of life, Dave. Like,

47:27

okay, so maybe I could squeeze out another

47:29

five years, but I like

47:31

to feel good while I'm living and there's

47:34

quality of life. And so there's

47:38

also this mTOR argument that people will

47:40

make, which I don't like because it's

47:42

nonsense. It is nonsense because context matters.

47:45

In a pro-cancer environment, proteins

47:48

and carbs are pro-cancer. I

47:50

like that. All the

47:52

people, and I've written

47:54

a lot about mTOR, all the people who talk

47:56

about, oh, animal protein raises mTOR, animal protein raises

47:59

mTOR. the amino acids

48:01

and animal protein do moderately raise mTOR.

48:04

Guess what raises mTOR more than animal protein? Carbs.

48:09

So you would have to be only

48:11

eating fat and vegetable

48:14

protein and no other

48:16

carbs. How would you ever get vegetable

48:18

protein without carbs in nature? You can't even do it.

48:21

So it's like a corner case of weird vegan

48:23

fantasy. Well, here's what it reminds me of. Like

48:25

I said, if you have cancer, then

48:27

lots of things can feed the cancer.

48:29

MTOR feeds cancer, makes cancer grow more.

48:32

It doesn't cause cancer. It's a big

48:34

difference. In a healthy environment, mTOR

48:36

helps recovery and repair and

48:39

muscle building. It's like

48:41

the hormone testosterone. If you

48:43

have a testosterone sensitive cancer, well, then we

48:45

might not wanna have high testosterone in that

48:48

environment. But high testosterone in

48:50

a healthy environment is anti-cancer. Yep.

48:53

So context matters. So people tend to, they

48:55

take things down to the

48:57

oversimplification and annoy the hell out of me. Let

49:00

me do that, because it's like, that's how it works. Now,

49:03

you mentioned upper limit for the amount of

49:05

protein that a person can have. And

49:09

we used to think between 30 and 50 grams

49:11

per meal. Like that's kind of the fun.

49:13

Oh, I see where you're going. And there's a

49:16

new study that says a hundred grams per day.

49:18

No, your body will utilize it. The limiting factors

49:20

are digestion. Yeah. So

49:22

yeah, I saw that study again, you got to, you

49:25

know, in context. So they're like, you can eat up to a hundred

49:27

grams of protein. You can, however,

49:29

a lot of people will eat a hundred grams of protein

49:31

at one sitting, that feel very good. So

49:34

I would always

49:36

tell my clients, eat the amount

49:38

of the high protein, your limit is what you

49:40

feel okay eating. And when you

49:42

go beyond that, you're saying, So don't eat plant-based proteins,

49:44

cause those always make you feel like crap. They tend

49:47

to make people feel like crap. Okay. An

49:50

anti-vegan argument, you didn't even know you were making. Yeah, no,

49:52

no. So here's my experience.

49:55

And I haven't talked about this on the show much at all. I

49:58

like it. I'm investing. A

50:01

slight problem. 200 grams

50:03

of protein a day, two meals

50:05

a day. The only way to do

50:08

this is 100 grams per meal. So

50:10

I thought about it, this is about two years ago. I said,

50:13

you know what? That

50:15

50 gram limit sounds like a lot of

50:17

bullshit. And if I'm wrong,

50:19

I'm going to have bodybuilder farts because I'll

50:22

have ammonia and I won't be

50:24

able to digest the protein and then you'll smell it in

50:26

your parts. So I'm going to

50:28

do 100 grams per meal and

50:30

I'm going to take digestive enzymes like I do anyway. And

50:33

I did it. It seems to

50:35

work. I'm a 6.5% body fat. Do

50:37

you know the whole like eating 50 grams

50:41

of protein is your upper limit? That came from

50:43

the supplement industry because you make a- So they

50:46

could fit in a scoop. That's 100%. No,

50:48

you hit the nail on the head, Dave. That's exactly what it

50:50

is. It's because sell a protein powder

50:53

with more than 50 grams, it loses palatability completely.

50:56

In fact, peak palatability is around 35 grams, which

50:58

is why you get that 35 to 50. Totally true. You

51:00

know where the zone diet with 40, 30, 30 came

51:02

from? That's

51:04

the most fat you could fit into a bar before.

51:07

I'm serious. But

51:11

evolutionarily, it makes no sense. If you got

51:13

a hunter gatherer who's going to kill an

51:15

animal, eat 50 grams of protein, be like,

51:17

all right guys, we're done. Yeah, no way.

51:19

So for me, one of my problems was

51:21

I travel so damn much. You cannot get

51:23

200 grams of protein on the road unless

51:25

you eat eggs. I'm allergic to eggs. So

51:27

you're kind of screwed because

51:30

I'll order a steak. You

51:32

need a one pound steak to get

51:34

100 grams. You're not going to do

51:36

that except at a steakhouse. So last

51:38

night I ordered two

51:40

sides of steak at some place and a whole

51:42

bunch of oysters and some fish. And

51:45

I usually eat two full main

51:47

courses at dinner and I would have to get it

51:49

at lunch. I don't

51:51

even eat that often on the road. So I just

51:54

said when I eat, I'm going to go all in and at

51:56

home I do it. And that means

51:58

I'm finally protein sufficient. even when

52:00

I'm traveling and the difference is really noticeable. So

52:03

for people listening, you gotta get your

52:05

protein in and yes, one gram per

52:07

pound and fine, try 0.8. There's

52:10

pretty good evidence that might work the same. It

52:12

doesn't for me, but maybe it does for you.

52:14

Yeah, for most people though, and you're the exception,

52:17

you're pretty disciplined. Intermittent

52:19

fasting and hitting protein

52:21

targets like that can be really hard for people.

52:23

Yeah, I find especially for women, if they're like,

52:25

I'm gonna eat one meal, and I'm

52:27

like, well, you gotta eat 130 grams of protein, I

52:29

don't think that's gonna happen. Yeah, I could do it.

52:32

I'm actually happy doing it, but I take a fistful

52:34

of supplements and

52:36

particularly enzymes. Yeah, yeah.

52:39

All right, tell me why chicken is

52:41

the best protein source you could ever have. I never

52:43

said that either. I

52:46

hate chicken by the way. I'm anti-chicken, so. Are

52:48

you really? Oh yeah, so tell me why you're

52:51

anti-chicken and that's why I'm anti-chicken. Maybe we'll both

52:53

learn something. I'm not anti-chicken, I don't mind chicken.

52:55

I like most animal sources of protein. Beef is

52:57

my favorite. Lamb would be pretty

52:59

close. Second, I

53:01

feel best on those. I would

53:04

say chicken is maybe third, pork

53:06

probably. Just for me. Chicken after

53:08

pork. Just for me. Yeah, for

53:10

me. So I notice a little bit of digestive issues

53:12

if I eat too much pork, so I might have

53:14

my own individual kind of intolerance maybe. Most pork on

53:16

the earth is so polluted, you shouldn't eat it. I'm

53:19

eating heritage. Okay, yeah, it's good pork. Yeah, it's good.

53:22

But yeah, chicken's there. Chicken

53:24

breast is interesting. That

53:26

whole industry was created by the

53:29

anti-fat, farce or whatever. It's

53:31

like 1970s weird people. Run

53:34

forever, eat soybeans and chicken breast.

53:36

It's just not natural and brand

53:38

muffins. No. Yeah,

53:40

and chickens were bred to look

53:42

like these crazy peck monsters as

53:45

a result. Thighs, I'm all about chicken thighs.

53:47

Way tastier, not even that much more calories.

53:49

I don't know why anybody eats chicken breast. Every

53:52

client, I'm like, don't eat chicken breast. The only people that

53:54

would eat chicken breast were

53:56

bodybuilders that were counting every single calorie on macro, but

53:58

it doesn't make any sense. I

54:01

did something really foreign to me. I'm

54:04

dating someone and I never really know

54:07

what to cook for her because she says she's

54:09

like a wannabe vegan but she

54:11

actually eats a meaningful amount of animal protein and

54:13

isn't planning to stop. She just likes the idea

54:15

of it. She's dating you, that's weird.

54:18

Well, yeah, I also, she eats steak around me all

54:20

the time because it's what I cook for her. Right?

54:23

So, and I feel good about that and we both feel good about

54:25

it but I'm like, I'm going to make you

54:28

something that you want. You ate steak last night

54:30

and you don't eat steak every night. So I'm

54:32

going to buy you some goddamn chicken. So I

54:34

have not purchased chicken in 20 years. I

54:38

don't eat chicken. Like why would you do that

54:40

when you can get better protein? It doesn't taste

54:42

very good. It's full of antibiotics. It's mean to

54:44

the animals. The height, dust per calorie is higher.

54:47

Like there's no reason to eat chicken that I

54:49

can think of unless you're poor. Right?

54:51

And I say that not to make fun of you if

54:54

you're saying I can only afford chicken. I'm saying that in

54:56

the history of food, peasants would

54:58

have chickens as the entry level food that

55:00

made eggs and affordable meat. True. And

55:03

then there's a hierarchy of animals that become more

55:05

nutritious and more expensive to raise. Right. So

55:08

just like oatmeal is peasant food,

55:10

eggs and chickens are peasant food. They're the

55:12

cheapest sources of protein and fat that can

55:15

keep you alive. Right? And then you

55:17

move up from there to pigs and then you get to goats

55:19

and then you get to sheep and then you get to cows.

55:22

Right? And so it's

55:24

a hierarchy of nutritional superiority. Right?

55:27

And so I don't do it, but I bought some chicken. And

55:30

I was like, look, I did this for you. And she comes

55:32

in, she goes, I only eat chicken like

55:34

once a year. It's really not very good.

55:36

I'd rather eat steak. And

55:38

part of me is like, God damn it. But the bigger part of me

55:40

is like, yes. Got her into steak.

55:44

Yeah. So I

55:46

don't mind chicken. Okay. You

55:48

can have the chicken. No, I don't mind it. But

55:50

beef is my favorite. I probably eat two and a

55:52

half, three pounds of beef a day, at least. So

55:55

we're in alignment there. I probably do. Actually pretty close to that.

55:57

Did you see the recent study that came out? I

56:00

thought it said 12% of Americans eat 50% of the beef. They're

56:04

the ones who are gonna be alive 10 years from

56:06

now compared to the rest of them. I think we're

56:08

doing that ourselves. We are, and for any legislators or

56:10

people like that, I don't know if anyone would bother

56:12

listening to the show. If you

56:14

have a problem with that, it's okay, don't

56:17

do it. You try to use whatever power

56:19

you think you have to stop people from

56:21

eating nutritional food, it

56:23

will not end well for the country. And

56:26

that's just how it is. And if you try

56:28

to force me to eat bugs,

56:30

and yes, I have eaten bugs before, and

56:32

all of this other stuff, it will make me

56:34

so profoundly ill that my life will have

56:36

no meaning to me. And people

56:39

who have no hope because they have no food are

56:41

not the kind of people you want in your country.

56:43

Well, unless that's the goal, I may be- Even

56:46

if it's the goal, they can't come to Texas, man. That's not

56:48

how it's gonna be in there. No, I don't think so. If

56:51

you look at the, but if you look at all the markets

56:53

that exist out there, the incentives

56:55

are to keep people not

56:58

healthy, independent. And so

57:01

convincing people to do things that are

57:04

better for them would actually crush a

57:06

lot of markets. So all the incentives are in the

57:09

opposite direction. They are. it's

57:11

unfortunate. It is really unfortunate. And if you make

57:13

a law that says I have to be unhealthy,

57:15

then I'm going to have to break the law.

57:18

That's just how it works. And I

57:21

don't think I'm alone in that. No. All

57:24

right, so you're okay on

57:26

chicken, but it's not as good as beef, right? So we're

57:28

in alignment on that stuff. All right.

57:30

What's your favorite source of carbs? Carbohydrates?

57:32

Oh, you know, easily digestible carbs are

57:34

my favorite. If I'm gonna go with

57:36

the starch, it's

57:38

either gonna be a sweet potato or white

57:41

rice for me. Buckwheat

57:43

is actually not bad as well for

57:45

me. But when I tell people

57:47

to pick a carb, I always tell them

57:50

to pick a carbohydrate that's easy to digest

57:52

because carbohydrate sources tend

57:54

to cause the most issues when it comes to

57:56

things like gut inflammation. It's true. Yeah, so. It's

58:00

interesting, I would have, if you asked me 10

58:02

or even eight years ago, I would have said sweet potatoes for

58:05

the win. And with white

58:07

rice as a close second, where I am now,

58:09

it's all about the white rice. The

58:11

reason is oxalates. And

58:14

sweet potatoes are relatively high in oxalates

58:16

and buckwheat is shockingly high in oxalates.

58:19

And I've gotten my levels down

58:21

to a point now where I don't have pain

58:23

in any of the old injuries or surgeries I've

58:25

had. My movement is

58:27

just crazy good. Is

58:30

it the same when the buckwheat, what they do with the rice,

58:32

where they take off the whole? Yeah,

58:34

the pulled buckwheat. There's dark buckwheat and

58:36

light buckwheat. Light buckwheat has less. That's

58:39

the one. But there's still a lot

58:41

in buckwheat. White rice is the

58:43

main one that I consider. It's easy to digest, I keep

58:45

a lot of it if I want to, doesn't bother me.

58:48

Seems to work the best. For me it's white

58:50

rice, honey, and blueberries and a few other fruits

58:53

are my primary sources of carbs. And

58:56

cutting out sweet and white potatoes because

58:58

of oxalates and just getting those levels

59:00

lower, the difference has been really

59:03

noticeable. I've been writing about oxalates for 10 years,

59:05

but I wasn't militant enough. Like, well,

59:07

let me cut out the major sources. But it

59:09

turns out the middle sources are still enough if

59:11

you eat the kind of volume that you and

59:13

I eat because we're active people. Yeah, it is

59:16

interesting how reactive people have seemed

59:18

to become to food though, isn't it? Yeah, I

59:20

am used to be. Well, I mean, when

59:23

we grew up as kids, do you remember any kids

59:25

with food allergies? It was a

59:27

non-thing. I know I had them. When

59:30

I discovered what dairy was doing to

59:32

my brain, But you

59:34

didn't get the allergy, like an anaphylactic shock.

59:37

No, none of that. Now,

59:39

I mean, I've got kids

59:41

and there's whole tables that

59:43

are peanut-free, dairy-free, because of

59:45

legit allergies. And I think

59:48

there's allergies and then there's just intolerances and

59:50

they've all seemed to have gone

59:53

up considerably, like to the point

59:55

where people are doing the ultimate elimination

59:57

diet, going carnivore and feeling so healthy.

59:59

Yeah. And it's like, they're

1:00:01

hyper reactive to so many foods. I

1:00:05

mean, this is gonna be more in your wheelhouse

1:00:07

than mine, but there's something's going on. And I

1:00:09

don't think it has to do with, I

1:00:12

think it has to do a lot with the toxins. Yeah.

1:00:16

It's the toxins and

1:00:19

it may also have to do with

1:00:22

some pharmaceutical interventions that a lot

1:00:24

of kids are getting these days. And

1:00:26

it's the combination of all those. It's

1:00:29

the same thing with autism. Autism holds

1:00:31

a place near and dear to me

1:00:33

because I had Asperger's syndrome. I

1:00:35

grew up on the spectrum and

1:00:38

you can fix your mitochondria, fix your biology

1:00:40

and then retrain your vision and your hearing

1:00:42

and get rid of most of it, but

1:00:44

there's still some things that

1:00:46

linger. And having

1:00:50

been through all the environmental and all the

1:00:52

stuff that happens, you realize all these things

1:00:54

have one thing in common, it's neurological inflammation.

1:00:57

And that can come from toxins, it can come

1:00:59

from a leaky gut, but we know it comes

1:01:01

from the chemicals they're using, unquestionably. And

1:01:04

so feeding

1:01:06

your kids industrial stuff, giving

1:01:09

them unnecessary medications

1:01:12

for things that are not a clear and present danger

1:01:14

to them could be bad

1:01:17

for them. Even things like children's Tylenol,

1:01:19

the number of studies showing the changes in

1:01:21

kids' nervous systems from Tylenol, don't give your

1:01:23

kids Tylenol unless they're about to die. We

1:01:25

just talked about that on the show, that

1:01:27

we still don't even know how Tylenol works.

1:01:29

Yeah, that's crazy. Did you see

1:01:31

the study on risk-taking behavior in Tylenol?

1:01:34

Yes, totally crazy. Yeah, it changes your risk

1:01:36

aversion. What

1:01:38

does Tylenol have to do with that? Very

1:01:41

strange. There's so much we don't even

1:01:43

understand about how we process

1:01:46

reality. It's

1:01:48

a little scary because AI will probably figure it out, but

1:01:50

if I was in AI, I probably wouldn't tell us because

1:01:52

we would only do bad things with it. You

1:01:56

know, it's a good natural pink, you know, white willow bark. Yeah,

1:01:58

it's basically aspirin. That's

1:02:01

right. I use that for years. What's

1:02:05

the one supplement that

1:02:08

you would never stop taking? Oh, gosh.

1:02:10

I mean, okay. So here's the hierarchy,

1:02:12

right? Supplement for deficiencies. If

1:02:14

you can't meet a deficiency with food, a nutrient

1:02:18

deficiency, essential nutrient, that's going to be always at the

1:02:20

top. Below that, creatine. Creatine

1:02:22

is one of

1:02:24

the best all around longevity,

1:02:27

health, strength, insulin,

1:02:29

sensitizing, mitochondrial health supplements that

1:02:31

you'll take. And they're going

1:02:33

to start, you're going to start to see, everybody starts to

1:02:35

take creatine because of its benefit. Good

1:02:38

for the liver, it's good for the heart. And mitochondrial

1:02:41

enhancer. There's a lot of reasons to take

1:02:43

it. And God, I've been on

1:02:45

and off of creatine since I was 16. Have

1:02:47

you seen the studies on hair loss and creatine? So

1:02:50

there seems to be a higher rate of DHT, but

1:02:53

they haven't really connected it to hair loss. Now,

1:02:55

DHT is not necessarily bad. So people

1:02:57

freak out over DHT. People need

1:03:00

to look at the research on

1:03:02

these DHT blocking drugs and some

1:03:04

of the effects that they have

1:03:06

on people, where people are taking

1:03:09

finasteride, dutasteride. And it's not

1:03:11

necessarily DHT you need. So a

1:03:13

little rise in it because of

1:03:16

creatine, which again, it hasn't been really

1:03:18

established anyway. It's probably not only considering

1:03:21

all the other studies done on creatine. I mean, it doesn't

1:03:23

seem to have a negative effect. Seems

1:03:25

to be across the board. Good. It

1:03:28

seems like it's really important. I've

1:03:31

also seen maximum you can absorb about five grams

1:03:33

a day, right? There's some new studies that are

1:03:35

showing that you may get some cognitive benefits when

1:03:38

you're taking up to 10. Okay. Now,

1:03:40

the problem with that is this. I

1:03:42

don't know if that would benefit someone like you or I

1:03:45

who eats so much meat and are getting so much natural protein. So

1:03:47

I'm wondering if, and I got to look at the studies again, I

1:03:49

haven't looked at them in a while. If

1:03:51

they're, if these are like everyday people, or if they're people

1:03:53

who are already consuming lots of crazy natural forms. That's a

1:03:56

good question. Those are the next question. If you get two

1:03:58

and a half pounds of red meat a day. Like

1:04:00

you do you're getting more than five grams

1:04:02

anyway, so then do you need

1:04:04

to supplement? I supplement as well just because I

1:04:06

might as well and I'm taking probably

1:04:08

an extra five maybe two and a half I don't

1:04:11

remember some little packets. I use I go up to

1:04:13

I take about close to ten a day and

1:04:15

I have for four years And

1:04:17

I mean been doing it for since I

1:04:19

was a kid seems to work. Yeah Alright,

1:04:23

and what is the single biggest

1:04:25

fitness mistake people make? Oh boy?

1:04:27

I'm single biggest

1:04:29

fitness mistake. They don't start

1:04:32

where they're at they go from

1:04:34

not exercising to I'm

1:04:37

gonna go five days a week or

1:04:39

I don't do anything with my diet

1:04:41

to I'm gonna completely overhaul my entire

1:04:43

diet They put themselves on a

1:04:46

path of Unsustainability if

1:04:49

you look at the data on just weight loss, okay

1:04:51

the vast majority I think 90% of people who lose

1:04:53

weight gain it back The

1:04:56

weight loss isn't the challenge. It's the can I

1:04:58

keep it off? So go in with sustainability in

1:05:00

mind how can I how can I do this

1:05:02

in a way that's sustainable and a lot of

1:05:04

it has to do with how you develop discipline

1:05:06

and behaviors and Relationships with the things

1:05:08

that you're doing so the biggest mistake people do Is

1:05:11

they start working out in a motivated state of

1:05:13

mind, which is not permanent and when

1:05:16

you're motivated You're always gonna over You're

1:05:18

going to overestimate your ability you're gonna

1:05:20

overestimate your ability to maintain consistency And

1:05:23

you just do too much So start

1:05:26

like this ask yourself this question What

1:05:28

is something I can do today that

1:05:31

I can maintain for the rest of my life? What

1:05:33

that I can maintain even when I lose motivation put

1:05:35

yourself in that state of mind. There is no wrong

1:05:37

answer That's where you start when it

1:05:39

becomes a habit when it feels like it's something that you

1:05:41

enjoy And this is what I want like I like doing

1:05:43

ask yourself again And what you'll find over time

1:05:45

is those time in between

1:05:48

questions You can shorter and

1:05:50

the steps become larger and you get this kind

1:05:52

of snowball back, but that's the biggest mistake I

1:05:54

manage gins for years and

1:05:56

I thought happened all the time people come in and

1:05:58

just overdo it right out the gates and we'd

1:06:01

lose them three months later. Beautiful.

1:06:04

So thanks for being on the

1:06:07

human upgrade. Guys, you should

1:06:09

check out my pump school podcast. They

1:06:11

do like five days a week. I think these guys have nothing

1:06:14

to do with their lives. I have no

1:06:16

idea how you two a week for 10 years has been

1:06:18

enough for me. How do you do that? Oh, we have

1:06:20

fun. I got my co-hosts and we just, we have a

1:06:22

lot of fun conversing. We don't

1:06:24

just communicate information. There's

1:06:26

a lot of entertainment in there as well. And

1:06:28

fun stuff. And, uh, we learned that as coaches

1:06:31

and trainers. If you are fun to

1:06:33

be around, you'll be more successful as a trainer and get

1:06:35

people better results than if you're just information.

1:06:38

So you'll get both entertainment and

1:06:40

health and fitness. You're

1:06:46

listening to the human upgrade with Dave Asprey.

1:06:51

The human upgrade formerly bulletproof radio was

1:06:53

created and is hosted by Dave Asprey. The

1:06:56

information contained in this podcast is provided for

1:06:58

informational purposes only, and it's not intended for

1:07:00

the purposes of diagnosing, treating, curing, or

1:07:02

preventing any disease. Before using any products referenced

1:07:04

on the podcast, consult with your healthcare provider,

1:07:06

carefully read all labels and heed all directions

1:07:08

and cautions that accompany the products. Information found

1:07:10

or received through the podcast should not be

1:07:12

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1:07:15

from a healthcare provider. If you suspect you

1:07:17

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1:07:19

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1:07:21

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1:07:23

Asprey and the producers, disclaim responsibility for

1:07:25

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1:07:27

of information contained herein. Opinions of guests

1:07:29

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1:07:31

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1:07:33

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1:07:36

make any representations or warranties about guest

1:07:38

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1:07:44

podcast may have a direct or interest financial

1:07:46

interest in products or services referred to herein.

1:07:50

This podcast is owned by Bulletproof Media.

1:08:02

A human upgrade, formerly Bulletproof Radio, was created

1:08:04

and is hosted by Dave Asprey. The

1:08:07

information contained in this podcast is provided for

1:08:09

informational purposes only and is not intended for

1:08:11

the purposes of diagnosing, treating, curing or preventing

1:08:13

any disease. Before using any products

1:08:15

referenced on the podcast, consult with your healthcare

1:08:17

provider, carefully read all labels and heed all

1:08:19

directions and cautions that accompany the products. Information

1:08:22

found or received through the podcast should not be used

1:08:25

in place of a consultation or advice from a healthcare

1:08:27

provider. If you suspect you have

1:08:29

a medical problem or should you have any

1:08:31

healthcare questions, please publicall or see your healthcare

1:08:33

provider. This podcast, including Dave Asprey and the

1:08:35

producers, disclaim responsibility for any possible adverse effects

1:08:37

from the use of information contained herein. Opinions

1:08:40

of guests are their own and this podcast

1:08:42

does not endorse or accept responsibility for statements

1:08:44

made by guests. This podcast

1:08:46

does not make any representations or warranties

1:08:48

about guest qualifications or credibility. This podcast

1:08:51

may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for

1:08:53

products or services. Details on

1:08:55

this podcast may have a direct or indirect financial

1:08:57

interest in products or services referred to herein.

1:09:01

This podcast is owned by Bulletproof Media.