0:00

Sergeant and Mrs. Smith,

0:02

you're going to love this house. Is

0:04

that a tub in the kitchen? There's

0:07

no field manual for finding the right home. But

0:09

when you do, USAA Homeowners Insurance

0:11

can help protect it the right way. Restrictions

0:14

apply. This is the

0:16

American Greed Podcast, presented by CNBC.

0:19

I'm Stacy Keech.

0:26

In this episode of American Greed, an

0:29

heir to a timber fortune, a

0:31

devious psychic, and a quest

0:33

for love.

0:35

I only paid her $10 for several hours. It

0:39

was a bargain. Over a decade,

0:41

fortune teller Rachel Lee's bargain

0:44

cost Ralph Rains Jr. $15 million, and

0:48

much more.

0:49

The scam in this case was

0:52

so deep. He was essentially

0:54

brainwashed. With Lee

0:57

dealing the cards, Rains believes

0:59

his dreams are coming true.

1:02

Dada.

1:04

I'm beginning to think that it's

1:06

happened. She gave him

1:09

what he wanted most. Smile.

1:13

But the reality is, it was all false.

1:15

And it was all designed to steal his

1:17

money. Lee's scorched earth

1:20

scam leaves behind a trail

1:22

of devastation. His

1:24

whole family had been taken away from

1:26

him.

1:27

His whole family. It's a clairvoyant

1:30

con, where Rachel Lee and her family

1:32

see themselves living the good life.

1:35

There's my car. There's my

1:37

car. There's the car I'm going

1:39

to get. It's evil. It's

1:42

real evil.

1:56

Good morning,

1:58

Rachel. In 2013,

2:00

a fortune teller from Oregon

2:03

named Rachel Lee is in Monte

2:05

Carlo with her husband Blancey.

2:08

Bonjour. In

2:10

this mecca for the rich and famous, the Lees

2:13

treat themselves to a hotel costing $1,800

2:15

a night. All

2:18

I can say is, forget about it. They

2:21

gamble in black tie at the Casino Royale

2:24

and party at a club called Billionaire.

2:28

Hey, Oregon! Look

2:30

for her hat! Not a million

2:32

dollars! A billion dollars!

2:35

Lee appears to be having the time of her

2:38

life. Something that's

2:40

easy to do when all the money she's spending

2:42

belongs to someone else. Hahahaha!

2:55

Ralph Range Jr. grows up here

2:57

on the Range tree farm, about an hour

2:59

west of Portland, Oregon. My

3:02

dad purchased the place in the mid-50s.

3:06

We started out planting the trees, and

3:08

I watched my dad and I planted my first

3:10

trees when I was about 10. I

3:13

planted well over a

3:15

million trees over the years. It's

3:18

hard, dirty work, but at the end of

3:20

the day, you feel good. Trees

3:25

from the Range farm can fetch up to $1,000

3:29

each, but the family is careful

3:31

not to cut down too many. Theirs

3:34

is a sustainable forest, where

3:37

the public is welcomed. Though

3:39

it's enjoyed by many, no one knows

3:42

it or loves it as much as Ralph

3:44

Range Jr. When

3:47

I'm out here among the trees, I'm in my element.

3:50

You can see that. Living

3:53

alone among the trees, he will one day

3:55

inherit. Junior is described

3:57

as being bright but gullible.

4:00

He is socially awkward. He's

4:03

always been that way. And

4:05

really, other than working with some

4:08

of the people that were working

4:10

on the property, I don't

4:12

think he had a lot of social life.

4:16

He's intelligent, very intelligent, even

4:18

from the first time I met him, but very

4:21

sweet,

4:22

very naive almost. Raines

4:26

is an only child who stands in

4:28

the shadow of his father. A distinguished

4:30

World War II pilot worth

4:33

millions. My dad made virtually

4:36

all the business decisions and ran

4:39

the place, and I carried out

4:41

the orders. Junior is fine

4:43

with the arrangement. He's never really

4:46

cared about money. It means nothing to him.

4:49

He doesn't particularly care

4:52

about clothing or having

4:54

a nice house or beautiful

4:57

furnishings. That kind of thing

5:00

is just not of interest to him at all.

5:03

One thing that does interest him is

5:06

the psychic realm. I'm

5:11

deeply interested in the paranormal.

5:15

I have a strong interest in it, some

5:17

of the areas I believe in, some of the

5:19

areas I don't. While visiting

5:22

Bend, Oregon in 2004, fate

5:25

leads him to this psychic shop

5:27

run by Rachel Lee. I

5:29

stopped by and I visited with her, and

5:33

I got acquainted with her, and I liked her personally.

5:36

I only paid her $10 for several hours. It

5:39

was a bargain. When

5:42

Raines, Junior meets Lee, he's 57 years

5:44

old, and

5:46

he shares with her his one

5:48

great desire. I said

5:51

I wished I had a family,

5:53

was married and had a family, and

5:56

I said, well, it just hasn't

5:58

happened in my life. Lee

6:00

says she can help, but she

6:02

seems to take an interest in another aspect

6:05

of Junior's life story. She

6:07

said, well, I'd like to see your place. And I says,

6:10

well, I'd love to show it to you. I

6:18

showed her the place and she agreed it

6:20

was a lot of property. And she told

6:22

me, she said, I understand

6:24

a lot. And she said, I've earned a lot from you. And

6:26

I said, well, I've enjoyed showing it to you. It

6:30

doesn't take a fortune teller to realize

6:32

this land is worth the fortune.

6:35

You're sitting there looking out

6:38

at all this property. You

6:40

know that there's money there.

6:42

But

6:43

I think she realized that there was

6:45

a lot. This

6:48

was kind of a big one for her. If

6:51

you're not sure where to turn, reach out to

6:53

Rachel from the Canby psychic, a world-renowned

6:56

psychic using tarot cards, palm

6:58

reading, and her natural abilities to read into

7:00

your life story. In this TV

7:03

ad, Rachel Lee touts herself as

7:05

a guiding hand for those in need.

7:08

Rachel can help you find success in love, business,

7:11

and life. In reality,

7:13

though, Lee is a master

7:15

of the sweetheart's window. She

7:18

uses the promise of love to isolate

7:20

a lonely man and hijack his

7:22

financial life. Ralph

7:27

Raines Jr. is hardly her

7:29

first victim.

7:31

Rachel Lee was really skilled

7:33

at executing this playbook

7:35

of fraud. She clearly has

7:37

developed a skill over time

7:40

in figuring out what individuals need

7:42

to hear and then creating

7:44

just the perfect situation

7:47

to be able to extract money from them.

7:51

In Sacramento, California,

7:53

in 1999, a public transit worker who

7:55

will call Francisco says he He

8:00

meets Rachel Lee at Psychic

8:01

World. One

8:06

friend describes Francisco as being

8:09

kind of slow, and he comes

8:11

to Lee hoping she can reunite him with

8:13

a lost love interest. She

8:16

just said, this is your soulmate.

8:18

You may cross paths in two years, but it can also

8:21

be something that can take as long as 10 years.

8:25

Lee tells Francisco she is having

8:27

her own love problems and will soon

8:29

be getting a divorce. Then

8:32

she lets him in on a secret.

8:35

When she first saw me, she

8:37

told me that she saw

8:39

the most wonderful man.

8:41

She picked that up right away. You

8:44

don't need to be a fiker for that. As

8:48

their friendship grows, Francisco

8:49

goes with Lee to a car

8:52

dealership where she first refers

8:54

to him as being more

8:56

than a friend. She

8:59

came out of nowhere like my fiancee.

9:02

I'm more, she calls me, she says I'm

9:04

more, the word which means love

9:06

in English,

9:07

almost making me go beyond a friend

9:10

and making me like her possible

9:13

future husband.

9:16

It's good timing because Lee

9:18

needs her new amor to co-sign

9:21

on her new truck. Soon

9:23

Francisco says Lee has him shelling out

9:25

thousands to help her save her house,

9:27

pay for a divorce lawyer, buy

9:30

another new car, and take

9:32

out numerous credit cards and her name.

9:35

She'll always be wanting to do shopping. It's

9:39

like that was her passion. This

9:42

goes on for years and eventually

9:45

Francisco begins to hear from credit card

9:47

companies seeking payment.

9:51

Later Francisco files a lawsuit claiming

9:53

he's out more than $100,000 and in July 2003 he goes

9:59

to police, though his case

10:02

is never prosecuted.

10:05

Months later, Lee heads north

10:07

to Bend, Oregon, where

10:10

she sets up a new shop and begins

10:12

luring a much bigger fish.

10:19

Ralph Range Jr. has access to his

10:21

own money, and in the first two years

10:23

of their relationship, he is happy

10:25

to share it with Rachel Lee, the

10:28

woman who's helping him find love. Early

10:33

in their decade-long relationship,

10:35

Junior gives Lee cash, expensive

10:38

watches, and eventually

10:40

a Hummer. Then

10:43

on Valentine's Day, 2006, Range pays $915,000 for a 4,600 square foot

10:45

four-bedroom house

10:53

in the hills above Portland.

10:55

Mr. Range Jr. was in his late 50s.

10:57

He had never purchased a piece of real estate

10:59

before in his life. It's clear

11:02

that that piece of property was purchased

11:04

because Rachel Lee convinced him that

11:06

it would be a good investment for

11:08

him in the long run.

11:09

The investment never pays

11:12

off for him. Lee, on the other

11:14

hand, furnishes the home using Range's

11:16

money and for years lives there

11:18

rent-free with a litany of her own family

11:21

members, including her husband,

11:23

Blancey Lee. When

11:26

Junior buys Lee the house, the

11:28

scam is actually just getting started,

11:31

and it takes a huge leap forward one day

11:33

in October 2006, when

11:36

Ralph Range Sr. suffers

11:38

a stroke. For

11:40

years, Sr. has made all the

11:42

business decisions for the farm. Now

11:45

he's left debilitated, and Junior

11:47

is left with a major dilemma. All

11:50

of a sudden, I was the boss. Following

11:53

his father's stroke, Ralph Range

11:56

Jr. desperately needs someone to care

11:58

for his dad and keep

12:00

the family business running smoothly. Rachel

12:03

Lee tells him and his family a story

12:05

that makes it seem like she can help.

12:08

She convinced me that she knew how

12:11

to take care of people. She

12:13

did tell me that her husband

12:16

had died of cancer and that she

12:18

was the caregiver

12:20

of him until he died.

12:22

She later told Mr. Reans Jr. that

12:25

she had also helped her husband with her husband's

12:27

business and had done some

12:29

bookkeeping for his auto

12:31

business.

12:33

But there's a slight problem with the

12:35

story.

12:36

All of the things

12:38

that Rachel Lee told Ralph Reans Jr. about

12:41

herself were lies.

12:43

Blind to the truth, Reans

12:45

asked Lee to take care of his dad

12:48

the way she once took care of her dying

12:50

husband. I asked Rachel, I said, well,

12:53

would you like a job? And

12:56

I was confident with her. My dad got

12:58

along with her and I thought everything

13:00

was fine. In fact,

13:03

Reans trusts Lee so much that

13:05

he gives her another job as well.

13:08

Because Rachel Lee had told

13:10

Ralph Reans Jr. that she had previously served

13:13

as a bookkeeper, this

13:15

allowed her to justify her offer

13:18

to assist with the books and records for

13:20

the tree farm.

13:22

To Jr., Lee seems like a

13:24

godsend and he happily gives

13:26

her control of accounts belonging

13:28

to him, his father, and

13:30

the farm. I had other things

13:32

to do. I was doing mostly

13:34

the hard, dirty work around the place.

13:38

Outworking amongst the trees, Reans

13:40

performed zero oversight of his new bookkeeper.

13:45

Putting a check in front of him

13:46

and saying, Ralph, you need to sign this, he

13:49

would not have questioned it. I'm not even sure he even

13:51

would have looked at it.

13:53

Reans agrees to pay Lee

13:56

nearly $9,000 a month for

13:58

her caregiving services. And

14:00

sometimes she pays herself two or

14:02

three times in a single month. Much

14:05

of this is ostensibly for taking care of

14:08

Junior's ailing father. But

14:10

what kind of care is he getting?

14:12

Ethel

14:17

Kelly,

14:18

a neighbor who once worked for Senior,

14:21

says she gets a firsthand

14:24

look. Many times he

14:26

would be dirty in dirty clothes and

14:28

he hadn't had a shower for, gosh,

14:31

I don't know how long. It was disastrous.

14:34

You know, he was not

14:36

being taken care of.

14:38

It's painful. It hurts to

14:40

know that she treated my friend, you know,

14:43

Ralph Senior the way she did. And

14:46

then Junior, the kindest man

14:48

on earth, you don't do that.

14:51

Later, Rachel Lee brings Senior

14:54

to live with her at the home in Portland,

14:56

purchased with Rain's family money. When

14:59

he gets there, he lives

15:01

in a bed in the hallway.

15:06

Lee is a master of separating Junior

15:08

and Senior from friends and family, and

15:11

few people are able to ask, what's

15:13

going on? I would

15:16

call his cell number and leave

15:19

a message and he wasn't getting back to

15:21

me. And later I found out

15:23

the messages were being raised.

15:26

With few people watching, Lee

15:29

gets to business. Rain's

15:31

senior has more than five million

15:33

dollars in investment accounts he shares

15:36

with his son. For years, he's

15:38

left the money largely untouched. But

15:40

with Lee calling the shots, that's

15:43

about to change. Our

15:45

understanding is that Ralph Raines Junior was

15:48

very frugal by his own

15:50

account. Preferred shopping at

15:52

Walmart and

15:53

at Goodwill than to other stores. There's

15:55

no indication from his prior

15:58

practice that he ever would. have

16:00

liquidated those accounts on his own.

16:02

In 2007, Lee has rained sell $300,000 in stock,

16:04

and the proceeds land in pre-farm bank accounts.

16:12

After seniors' stroke, the farm accounts

16:15

were controlled fully by Rachel Lee.

16:18

By the time she took control of the accounts,

16:21

which we believe was about 2007, Ralph Raines Jr.

16:26

trusted her completely.

16:27

With Raines blindly signing

16:29

checks, Lee parcels out most

16:32

of the money she's stealing to herself and

16:35

her relatives. After

16:39

three years of friendship,

16:42

Rachel Lee is familiar with Ralph

16:44

Raines' deepest desires, down

16:46

to the last detail.

16:48

Ralph Raines Jr. shared with Rachel Lee

16:50

what his image was of the ideal

16:53

woman that he was attracted to.

16:58

He preferred women who were blond and

17:01

light-skinned, and

17:03

he was interested in people who

17:05

were exotic and not from this

17:08

area.

17:10

Raines' fantasy gives his

17:12

psychic friend an opportunity to set

17:14

the hook even deeper. In

17:16

October 2007, Raines

17:19

is waiting for Lee at the Portland Airport when,

17:22

seemingly from out of the blue, a mysterious

17:25

young woman approaches. She

17:28

was tall, slender, blond,

17:32

British accent. The woman

17:34

introduces herself as Mary Marks

17:37

and seems to have a paranormal

17:40

gift. From his perspective,

17:43

it was a chance meeting. They

17:46

got to talking and she said, is

17:49

your name Ralph? And

17:51

he said, well, yeah. Well, he

17:53

believes in psychics. And

17:56

so he thought it was

17:58

kind of a sign. Eventually,

18:03

Mary tells Raines that she's British,

18:06

living illegally in California, where

18:08

she works in a county. To

18:11

Raines, it's like a dream come

18:13

true. I'm

18:16

beginning to think that it's happened.

18:21

Yes, something has happened,

18:24

but it's not what Raines thinks.

18:27

Rachel Lee was in the business of committing

18:29

fraud. Not only did she support her

18:32

family with fraud, but she used all

18:34

her family members in committing this fraud. The

18:37

person he believes is Mary Marks is really, partially,

18:40

one of Rachel Lee's daughters, who at the time

18:42

we believe was approximately 17 years old.

18:47

Raines, of course, has no idea

18:49

that the woman he's falling for is wearing

18:52

a wig, or that she's related

18:54

to his best friend, Rachel.

18:56

Neither Rachel

18:59

nor her daughter tell him after

19:01

the first meeting, in

19:04

the years that follow, or even

19:06

when Portia Lee slash Mary

19:09

Marks comes to Raines with an idea.

19:13

She proposed to me. She

19:16

said,

19:17

you know, I'd like to be your

19:20

wife. I'd

19:22

like to help you manage the business, and

19:25

you do the work on the place. I love

19:27

it here.

19:29

Karen Fittimore learns

19:31

about her cousin's new British wife

19:33

from a name tag at a high school

19:36

reunion.

19:37

When I got there, Ralph entered

19:39

his hurt tone, and

19:41

I said,

19:42

I didn't know you were married. That's a heck of

19:44

a way to find out. And he said,

19:47

oh, it was a secret. We had to keep it a

19:49

secret.

19:50

Or she was going to be deported.

19:54

Like much in this scam, the name

19:56

Mary Marks is not chosen at

19:58

random. Mary Marks

20:00

is actually Rachel Lee's mother's

20:03

name. They

20:04

needed a real person behind

20:07

the fake persona so they could open bank

20:09

accounts and they could transfer

20:10

properties.

20:13

When Junior writes checks to Mary

20:15

Marks, his wife, the actual

20:17

Mary Marks can take them and deposit

20:20

them into accounts she opens. What's

20:24

more, Rain's wife is

20:26

just one part of the fake family

20:28

the Lees create for him. Hi,

20:33

Mom. Hi. Georgia

20:36

and I sure miss you. Around 2008,

20:41

Portia Lee, the young woman playing

20:43

Mary Marks, becomes pregnant, but

20:46

the father is not her beloved Ralph

20:48

Raines, Junior. Now, the

20:51

Lees need to convince Junior that he's

20:53

the one who planted the

20:54

seed. Raines'

20:58

friend Ethel Kelly says it's a

21:01

lie that could be nearly impossible

21:03

to sell.

21:05

I think he just didn't want

21:07

to push himself on anybody. So,

21:10

you know, companionship was just, because

21:14

he was not interested in

21:16

the physical as much

21:18

as he is, just having someone

21:20

care about him.

21:23

He's not that, he's a real gentleman.

21:27

Desperate to fit this square peg

21:30

into a round hole, Mary Marks

21:32

comes to Raines with a request.

21:35

Ralph Raines, Junior tells us that

21:38

Mary Marks asked him if he

21:40

would father a child with her through

21:42

in vitro fertilization, that

21:45

Mary Marks and Rachel Lee provided

21:48

Ralph Raines, Junior with a container.

21:50

And seems to be, oh shit,

21:53

it's a completely different package, but

21:55

it's the same choice. Yeah, yeah.

21:58

What now? I don't mean to jinx anything,

22:02

but what happens if it's a crazy runaway

22:04

success? Do you maybe do more?

22:07

Do you maybe extend or do they recast?

22:11

They put some second raiders in there

22:13

afterwards. No, that's not a thing. We'll

22:17

talk about that. No. Yeah.

22:19

Let me hit pause and then we'll talk honestly.

22:22

We committed. Andrew

22:24

and I really felt strongly

22:26

that we wanted this to be a limited run. Yeah.

22:29

The idea was, it's just four

22:31

months. You either see it or you don't, and

22:34

that's on you. It's

22:36

a bummer, but it's also,

22:39

I felt like I overstayed my welcome at

22:41

Book of Mormon. I was there for a year and a half. I

22:45

don't think towards the end I was in all

22:47

fairness, giving my all. I was

22:49

tired. I was somewhat

22:53

bored of doing the same thing. A

22:57

year and a half is a long time to say the same words

23:00

night after night. Sure. I vowed to never

23:02

put myself or my audience in that position

23:05

again. I want to leave with

23:07

them and I wanting more, and that's the

23:09

idea here. I hope

23:12

it is a resounding success and never say never.

23:15

But for now, I think the plan is January

23:17

28th will be our final show. Yeah. I come

23:20

from an improv background, and

23:24

the times that I have done theater, that

23:26

has been the real hard

23:29

thing for me. I think it's just

23:31

because I never was used

23:33

to it. I was used to constant

23:36

change and it suits me. Even

23:39

when I started working out of college,

23:41

I worked in film production and the

23:44

freelance life appeals

23:47

to me because it's always different. Then

23:50

I went to work for Conan O'Brien for

23:52

the better part of 30 years. Looking

23:55

at that face. You

23:58

guys are it. What is the grade I come? I think

24:01

it's funny, Rannells and I are now getting,

24:03

I think, inappropriately linked

24:05

to some of those comedic pairings.

24:07

And I do think of you and Conan as one of

24:09

the iconic comedic pairings

24:13

of all time in comedy. I

24:15

really do. Thank you so much.

24:22

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25:23

Were you

25:25

an acting kid? Were

25:28

you always kind of putting on shows? Yeah,

25:31

I'm sort of the

25:33

like, I'm

25:34

a case study in, you know,

25:37

the sort of story

25:39

that you hear about like, you

25:42

know, children of divorce

25:44

becoming, you know, meeting

25:46

an outlet. It's so a lot of return

25:48

to acting.

25:51

I'm sort of that cliche. I,

25:54

you know, my parents got separated

25:56

when I was five years old.

25:58

I

25:59

could see.

25:59

the sadness in my mom

26:02

and vowed to

26:05

try to pull her out of it by being goofy.

26:07

The first anecdote

26:11

I remember of being an

26:13

idiot was

26:15

my mom got called into school when I was

26:17

in kindergarten and

26:19

it's very hard to have

26:21

a reason for teachers to call

26:23

parents into school in kindergarten. They

26:26

called my mom in because I would apparently

26:28

walk into class late for some

26:30

reason and when I walked in I would say,

26:33

hi, toots to the teachers and

26:35

they did not like that. Or I

26:39

would say, Lucy, I'm

26:41

home

26:41

and so I

26:44

was disruptive at six. I always

26:46

had this desire to get laughs

26:48

and

26:53

make people happy. It was

26:57

one of those things that went from a

27:00

sort of, I'm

27:02

doing this because it brings me joy to I'm

27:04

doing this because I feel like I need to do this because

27:06

I feel like it's a passion.

27:08

I told my

27:10

parents, I told my mom at

27:13

a pretty early age this is what I want

27:15

to do. She said, great,

27:18

you're not going to be a professional actor until

27:20

you get an education.

27:24

She said, you can go to conservatory but you've

27:27

got to get a diploma. I'm so grateful for

27:29

that. I went to Carnegie Mellon and

27:31

I learned and was able to hold my craft

27:34

there alongside amazing people

27:36

in my class, Josh Groban, Leslie

27:38

Odom Jr. from Hamilton and

27:41

many other incredible things for Oreo Malley

27:43

who I did Book of Ormond with.

27:45

After that,

27:48

I struggled for about two

27:50

and a half years where I just really,

27:54

I wasn't breaking in at all. I

27:57

called up my mom one day and I said to her, I

28:00

think I'm going to go to law school because both of my brothers went to

28:02

law school.

28:03

And I feel like

28:05

I met somebody I really, really love. This

28:08

was Edo who had become my wife. And I feel

28:10

like maybe it's time to settle down

28:13

and this isn't going my way. And my

28:15

Jewish mother started crying and she said to me,

28:17

I'm disappointed.

28:19

Oh, wow.

28:20

And I said,

28:21

what Jewish mom says

28:24

disappointed when their son says I'm going to law

28:26

school. It's like everything my mom wants to hear.

28:29

She goes, you spent 15 years

28:32

dreaming about doing this and

28:34

only two and a half years try to live

28:37

out that dream. And I think that's a top out. And

28:40

I was like,

28:41

whoa. Wow.

28:42

And a week

28:44

after there

28:45

was this show on Broadway called

28:48

25th Annual Putnam County Spellingley

28:50

that Dan Fogler, a

28:53

brilliant actor, won a Tony for.

28:55

And my buddy saw it and he said, Josh,

28:59

there's literally only one person who can take over

29:01

for the sky when he leaves and it's

29:03

you. And I was like, oh,

29:06

you know, I didn't go to school

29:08

for musical theater. I think they didn't think

29:11

I was good enough to be a musical theater

29:13

person. Oh really? Wow. In the acting

29:15

category. Wow.

29:18

In Pittsburgh. In Pittsburgh.

29:20

In Yynzertan.

29:24

And so I auditioned and

29:26

I somehow pulled a rabbit out of my hat and

29:29

I got the role and it changed my life. And

29:32

I have a look back. Yeah. Yeah.

29:35

Did you, I mean,

29:37

because I completely just

29:39

did when you said something about, you know,

29:41

like making your sad mother happy,

29:43

like, oh boy, does that strike

29:46

a nerve with me? Because my

29:48

folks divorced when I was about four and

29:50

I have this

29:51

image of my mother in a

29:54

waitress uniform laying

29:57

on the couch of my grandmother's house with her

29:59

forum. Forum over her eyes

30:02

and that was like about a year.

30:04

I think yeah your Oh, I do

30:06

just where she just needed

30:08

to be quiet and heal

30:10

for a little while Yeah, and

30:13

and and I I forgot that same

30:15

pressure You know, I felt that same pressure

30:17

and it would come out at school too in the same way because

30:20

like I Wish someone

30:22

had taken a picture of when

30:24

I was in kindergarten on my

30:26

birthday If

30:29

it was your birthday you wore a little

30:31

crown all day And

30:32

then there was there was either a pink

30:35

or blue Like this felt

30:37

sleeve that would go over the back of your

30:39

little desk chair that said birthday boy

30:42

or birthday girl

30:44

on the back like some little arts and crafts

30:46

thing and I

30:49

That day apparently I was

30:51

a little amped because it was my birthday and

30:53

this is when they used to be able to do things Like that.

30:56

I was tied to my chair with a jump

30:59

rope by the teacher and My

31:02

brother who's three years older than me

31:04

just like during recess I was left

31:07

tied to my chair with a fucking

31:09

crown on my head That's incredible boy

31:11

on the back

31:12

tied to my chair and my brother walked by and

31:14

just looked in the doorway and just laughed Just

31:17

laughed at me and then went out to

31:19

play with the other children need by the way We

31:21

need to speak to your kindergarten

31:24

classmates and I there's got to be Visual

31:27

evidence of this summer. I Know

31:29

I don't I doubt it. I doubt it and especially

31:32

like well, it would be actionable at

31:34

this point to the tea. Yeah, by the way Raining

31:37

a child with a rope. Yeah, that

31:39

would probably be frowned upon them. Yeah Yeah,

31:41

did that was that a component

31:44

of you? Like has that been a component

31:46

of you, you

31:47

know, like wanting to make everybody happy

31:49

and kind of you know Sweating it out to

31:51

kind of you know, where you and

31:53

and where being a performer you kind of made

31:56

lemonade Or a lemonade out of lemons,

31:58

you know in terms of the urge of

31:59

of just trying to keep people happy? Yes.

32:03

A hundred percent.

32:04

Yeah. I was actually very

32:07

interesting. I had this out of body

32:10

moment the other night as I was doing the show and

32:13

we're in that overwhelming process

32:15

right now where we're doing tech during

32:17

the day, during previews, and

32:19

then doing a show at night. So things are changing.

32:22

Very stop and start and very

32:25

frustrating. It's very frustrating.

32:28

Then you have the added stress

32:30

of having to remember new

32:32

lyrics and new choreography to a song

32:35

as you're doing the show live for people.

32:38

It's very stressful.

32:42

I

32:43

had this moment of frustration on stage

32:46

where I was internally like, God,

32:49

I'm really upset right now. This is

32:51

frustrating. I hate that I'm worried

32:54

about what's coming up because I don't

32:57

want to forget it and script the show. I

32:59

just looked out in the audience and I saw how happy

33:02

they all were. It

33:03

was like,

33:04

you know what? There's

33:05

nothing to be stressful about. Yeah. I'm

33:08

giving these people a moment

33:11

to just enjoy their lives

33:13

and enjoy themselves. That's priority

33:15

number one, two, and three. It's just

33:18

a reminder of that's

33:20

what we signed up for. Sometimes

33:23

the clown is sad. Yeah.

33:26

That is

33:27

oftentimes when we're at our best. My

33:29

idol is Charlie Chaplin. There's

33:32

a man who was tormented from

33:34

the beginning of his life to the end of his life. If

33:38

you read his biographies, there's just so much

33:40

sadness. There's so much anger and

33:42

there's so much angst. At the same

33:44

time, the Tramp

33:47

gives us these

33:49

brilliant opportunities

33:51

to reflect off

33:54

of him, what humanity means,

33:56

whether it's the kid or whether it's

33:58

the kid.

33:59

it's Gold Rush or whether it's modern

34:02

times. And I think that that's, I

34:04

was blessed enough to know Robin

34:06

Williams. I've been blessed enough

34:08

to know a lot of incredible comics

34:11

who I think all have this underlying

34:14

sadness at their core.

34:17

And it's that marriage of

34:19

those two things that I think really sometimes

34:23

can both be volatile in the worst

34:25

of ways and volatile in the best of ways

34:28

in terms of performance. And

34:30

there are days when I'm really sad because

34:32

I'm not with my children.

34:34

And I try to weaponize that

34:36

through comedy

34:38

and that helps me get through it. It's therapeutic,

34:40

it's cathartic and it feels

34:42

like it's not

34:45

only giving others a chance to laugh,

34:47

but it's also giving me a chance to

34:49

express my grief in a way

34:52

that is unorthodox.

34:53

Yeah, yeah. Now, and you

34:55

have you've been pretty open about struggling

34:58

with anxiety. You've had specific,

35:02

I think it's generalized

35:05

anxiety disorder, is that it? That literally

35:08

couldn't be more perfect. I know,

35:11

it's crazy. That dad has got

35:13

very open about it because I want people to

35:15

know that misery

35:18

has company. And when I tell you

35:20

that at 21

35:21

years old, when it started, out

35:27

of the blue, it was

35:29

crippling. I couldn't leave bed.

35:32

I didn't know what was going on. Tell

35:34

me how that happened. So the first time it happened,

35:37

this is strange, but I

35:42

smoked something in college and

35:45

it sort of

35:47

started after that. Not to say I don't believe

35:50

in

35:53

marijuana and by the way, I still

35:55

use it. I thought

35:57

you were talking about fish.

35:59

I smoked a little fish

36:02

and it triggered me in a really bad

36:04

way.

36:07

So I had

36:09

this adverse response.

36:13

Was

36:15

that the first time you ever smoked weed?

36:17

That was the first time I ever smoked weed.

36:23

Instead of doing what

36:25

I've now found in my happy

36:27

place when I take

36:31

anything like that. Back then

36:33

I didn't know. I was just, somebody was handing

36:35

me something. I smoked it and I had a really bad response.

36:38

My heart just started

36:41

shortly thereafter and I don't

36:43

necessarily know that there's a cause and effect to that.

36:46

I think it was also just at a time

36:48

in my life when a lot was going on and I had

36:50

lost a bunch of weight and I felt out

36:52

of body. I didn't feel like myself.

36:55

My parents left my childhood

36:58

home.

36:59

It was all just like I was about to

37:01

leave college. Everything was like climate.

37:04

I went home the

37:06

summer before my senior year of college and

37:10

one night I thought I was having a heart attack. I

37:12

couldn't catch my breath. I could not

37:14

breathe. I started sobbing

37:17

uncontrollably. I

37:19

could not stop crying and I didn't

37:22

know what the hell was happening to

37:24

me. I went to go see

37:27

every doctor imaginable and

37:29

I thought that somebody thought maybe I had MS.

37:35

Somebody thought that I had all

37:37

of these different things. That

37:39

won't help the stress. No, not at

37:42

all. My parents, my stepdad

37:44

and my mom got blessed and we tried

37:46

everything like taking me to baseball and

37:49

everything would trigger me and just be worse. I

37:52

couldn't leave my house for like two weeks. One

37:55

day my brother is like, I think

37:58

you should go speak to. a

38:00

therapist. I was like, no, this is, some

38:03

physically is happening. Like this is, and I

38:05

felt like a prisoner in my own body.

38:08

Like that's where it felt. Yeah. Yeah.

38:11

And so I, I went to, I

38:13

finally went to go see, um, what

38:16

is the type of doctor that like looks

38:19

at neurological stuff. A

38:22

neurologist. Thank you.

38:24

You're welcome. It's one of those mornings. I mean, it was

38:26

right there for the taking. You got halfway there.

38:28

In your word neurological, there's a doctor

38:30

who actually has that. So

38:33

I saw a neurologist and the neurologist concluded

38:35

that indeed we

38:37

thought that it was, uh, something

38:39

to do with anxiety. So

38:41

I went to go see a, a psychiatrist

38:44

and a psychologist and, um, I

38:48

started taking medication and

38:51

over the course of a couple of

38:53

weeks, it was like someone

38:55

lifted the veil from this prison

38:57

I was in and I could actually

39:00

see straight again. And with the help

39:02

of, you know, um,

39:06

this SSRI that I've been on since

39:08

I was 21 and, and

39:10

talk therapy, um, I

39:13

can live my life and I am so,

39:15

I feel so grateful and

39:17

I feel so, I feel

39:19

like it's so important because I think a lot

39:21

of kids going through this don't understand

39:24

what's happening, what is happening. And

39:26

if there's a stigma for some reason,

39:29

which I don't quite understand, like I,

39:31

mental health to me is like any

39:33

other, um, medical condition

39:36

that needs to be sure.

39:38

And we, if you were walking around with a

39:40

broken bone sticking out of your leg, you'd go

39:43

to the doctor. And if you

39:45

walk around feeling like you want to die all the

39:47

time, you're like, that's my fault. I should

39:49

just get, you know,

39:50

I should just grin and bear it.

39:52

And that's the thing. And, and,

39:54

and, you know, some people can do it without

39:56

meds and God bless them. For me, it

39:58

was, it was every. Everything I

40:01

needed and more and I

40:04

still get a healthy dose of anxiety,

40:06

but it's not crippling. I can live my life. When

40:10

I feel that sort of like,

40:12

kind of overwhelming sensation, I'll

40:14

speak to a therapist and I'll just kind of talk to them

40:16

about it and I can reacclimate

40:19

myself and it

40:21

all feels good. After this podcast,

40:25

I'm going to go into a deep spiral of anxiety

40:27

about the fact that I couldn't remember a neurologist

40:29

to someone who treats neurological disorders. It's

40:32

okay. Now, this is something, you know,

40:34

I've always been struck because I see it in myself.

40:38

Like,

40:38

I'm not, like, I

40:40

would, if you were to ask me to typify

40:43

myself, I would say, I'm kind of shy

40:45

and

40:45

yet I'm a clown for a living,

40:48

you know, like I get in front of people and act

40:50

like an idiot.

40:52

And so it's interesting that

40:54

this anxiety reared its

40:56

head at a certain point, like, right to

40:59

when you're sort of like thinking,

41:00

I want to be on stage for a living. It's

41:03

very inconvenient, but

41:06

I see it so often that these

41:09

dichotomies and people that get up

41:11

in front of people to

41:12

entertain them, they

41:14

have something where it's like, you shouldn't be doing

41:17

that.

41:17

And do you, like, has that occurred

41:20

to you? And do you, are you struck by that?

41:23

I will tell you, there's not

41:25

a time when I

41:27

get in front of an audience, whether it's a talk show

41:30

or whether it's doing my hundredth

41:32

performance of a stage show where

41:34

I don't get this, like, deep

41:37

seated anxiety right

41:40

before I walk out without fail.

41:43

Right. And I've always

41:45

been like, I think it's,

41:47

I think it's something that a lot of performers

41:50

have, but they just don't talk about again, because

41:52

stigmatized, but like,

41:54

then you'll sort of hear about like people

41:57

like

41:57

Barbara Streisand and Adele.

42:00

literally like throw up before

42:02

they go on stage because they're so nervous.

42:04

And it is, I think it's

42:07

a real thing. And I

42:09

think there's a healthy dose of that that like

42:12

turns into the adrenaline that then

42:14

allows you to do, you know, like

42:17

I'll give you a perfect example of this. So

42:19

two performances ago, they

42:22

changed a bunch of stuff. They gave me a bunch

42:25

of new lines. They gave me some new choreography. And unlike

42:27

Rannells who's, you know, done like eight

42:29

Broadway shows, I've done, this is my third

42:32

and it messes with my head. And

42:34

when I get changes and I have to incorporate that,

42:37

I got seriously

42:39

anxious. And I walked on stage

42:41

with that anxiety. And I was like, oh,

42:45

it just, it's, you know, it

42:47

needs an outlet. And last night I was like, I

42:49

am not going to let this get

42:52

the best of me. I'm going to take a deep breath. And

42:54

I walked on stage and I, as I saw

42:57

the audience, I welcomed

42:59

their entrance applause and

43:01

I soaked it in and I let it ground

43:03

myself and I was able to go. But like,

43:06

it's always been a thing for me. I, there

43:08

was in a time where I did your show with code and

43:10

where I would not get, you know, physically

43:13

ill backstage before I walked out. I don't

43:15

know if that's like imposter syndrome. I

43:17

don't know if it's, you know, ironically

43:20

I share the same fear of public

43:22

speaking that everybody else in the world

43:24

does. I don't know what it is, but it's, I've

43:28

come to peace with it because I think it also

43:30

ends up being something

43:33

that is useful, something

43:35

that turns into this other energy that

43:40

you can,