0:00

I had an acting

0:00

masterclass with this woman who had

0:03

she played Mary Poppins on

0:03

Broadway, she but she was an

0:06

understudy. And she said that she

0:06

got a call and her mother had

0:10

passed away. I don't know if there

0:10

was no understudy under her or what

0:14

the situation was, but it was like,

0:14

I'm in makeup. I'm ready to go on.

0:19

The show must go on No, show. Mary

0:19

Poppins on Broadway knowing mom

0:25

just died up to go ahead. Just a

0:25

spoonful of sugar helps the

0:28

medicine go down. You know, it's

0:28

like how challenging that is. And

0:34

that's part of the commitment in

0:34

showbusiness is that no matter

0:39

what,

0:40

yeah, and I may be wrong, but

0:40

I think it's things like that, that

0:45

has gotten all walled into what it

0:45

is today, the show must stop so

0:49

that we can feel what we're feeling

0:49

like, I am not going to show up

0:54

smiling, when my life is falling

0:54

apart, that conflict with who I am.

1:06

Hello, and welcome

1:06

to this week's episode of The

1:09

interracial couple podcast

1:10

where it's not all black and

1:10

white. My name is Sarah,

1:13

and I am Matthew,

1:13

this week, one of the things that's

1:15

been on our mind is, or you can say

1:15

pivoting or redefining

1:21

relationships. You know, and I

1:21

think one of the things that comes

1:26

up in relationships is sometimes

1:26

they'll hit a snag, or they'll hit

1:30

something like, this isn't quite

1:30

working anymore. Like I love this

1:33

person, but it's not working. Yeah.

1:33

And when we don't know what kind of

1:38

what the answer is, because we've

1:38

always done it this way, how do I

1:41

change who I am? How do I change

1:41

who they are? I said, I can't

1:45

obviously can't do that. How do I

1:45

reimagine it can sometimes be

1:49

scary? And then the the result of

1:49

that can very often be drifting

1:54

apart or separating? Right?

1:57

Yeah. And sometimes

1:57

reimagining also, I think means

2:00

like, letting go of what you think

2:00

it should look like. or the

2:06

expectation of what you think the

2:06

relationship should look like, or

2:11

the thing that you are trying to

2:11

redefine not like. So I think so

2:15

much of redefining is letting go of

2:15

expectation,

2:20

right? A view of

2:20

the other of yourself of the

2:24

situation, what do you mean,

2:25

I would say like, of, of the

2:25

situation, and I think we have so

2:29

much expectation that this is how

2:29

our relationship should look like.

2:34

This is how our relationship should

2:34

function. And redefining actually

2:39

means taking a break from the

2:39

expectation. And reimagining like,

2:44

letting there be an opening of what

2:44

could be without expectation.

2:49

Because if you bring in the

2:49

expectation, then there is in that

2:53

space necessarily to recreate

2:53

something new. Right, and they just

2:58

have, like habits form and things

2:58

form and the way it should look

3:04

like the way it should be. There's

3:04

a lot of shirred in relationships.

3:10

Yeah, and I think

3:10

pattern, you know, we've talked on

3:12

this podcast a lot about patterns

3:12

and how they kind of creep in in

3:16

one place where one of our

3:16

competing patterns has come into

3:20

play is actually in the recording

3:20

of this podcast. Right? I mean, I,

3:26

you know, some might describe me as

3:26

fairly Angel. That would be one way

3:30

to describe me, when I commit to

3:30

something I commit really

3:33

seriously. And so one thing that

3:33

we've actually butted heads on in

3:37

this as that we said, we were going

3:37

to record an episode a week. And

3:41

that, to me, kind of means like,

3:41

come hell or high water. Yeah,

3:45

we're going to do it.

3:46

And for me, it does mean that

3:46

a podcast would be recorded once a

3:51

week. But the time could be

3:51

flexible, um, a very flexible

3:55

person.

3:57

Or it could be okay

3:57

to miss a week or two if you're not

4:01

feeling great.

4:02

Correct. So part of it, part

4:02

of it was like I my commitment is a

4:07

little bit. So this is what I'm

4:07

talking about expectation when we

4:10

decided to start recording this

4:10

podcast, my expectation was that I

4:15

was going to show up and be

4:15

vulnerable. And sometimes I'm not

4:20

feeling great and I don't want to

4:20

be vulnerable. So I don't show up

4:25

because I know that I won't be able

4:25

to be vulnerable. But for you the

4:29

commitment is different. The

4:29

commitment is showing up week after

4:34

week and doing it whether you're

4:34

going to be vulnerable or not. And

4:38

so those are two different ways of

4:38

working

4:42

Yeah, right i mean,

4:42

i you know, for me show business is

4:45

kind of deep in my bones you know,

4:45

and there's a saying right, the

4:48

show must go on, no matter what

4:48

happens the show must go on. I was

4:52

had an acting it was like a

4:52

masterclass. I'm trying to remember

4:55

where it was this woman who had she

4:55

played Mary Poppins on Broadway.

4:59

She but she was is an understudy.

4:59

And she said that she got a call

5:03

her mother had passed away. But the

5:03

understudy like there's I don't

5:09

know if there was no understudy

5:09

under her or what the situation

5:11

was, but it was like, I'm in

5:11

makeup, I'm ready to go on. The

5:16

show must go on

5:17

No.

5:18

Mary Poppins on

5:18

Broadway knowing mom just died out

5:22

to go out. Just a spoonful of sugar

5:22

helps the medicine go down. You

5:28

know, it's like how challenging

5:28

that is. And that's part of the the

5:33

commitment in show business is that

5:33

no matter what,

5:38

yeah, I don't believe in

5:38

that. Like, he just doesn't walk in

5:42

my passion, but who I am in my

5:42

values. And I may be wrong, but I

5:46

think it's things like that, that

5:46

has gotten all walled into what it

5:51

is today, like there is value in

5:51

the show must go on. But I also

5:56

think there is value in the show

5:56

must stop so that we can feel what

6:00

we're feeling like, I am not going

6:00

to show up smiling, when my life is

6:07

falling apart, that conflict with

6:07

who I am, right and

6:10

so in, in like a

6:10

relationship to I think they're

6:14

very, like, those are fundamental

6:14

differences between you and I. And

6:19

it showed up in our podcast, and

6:19

because it showed up on our

6:22

podcast, and also then showed up

6:22

big time in our life, because we've

6:25

done this pretty much every week,

6:25

for 69 weeks.

6:30

Yeah, it's been. It's been

6:30

more challenging the, during this

6:35

podcast, and I thought, if I'm

6:35

being honest, then I thought he was

6:39

going to be and part of it is that,

6:39

but also part of it is that I

6:45

didn't realize what I was signing

6:45

up for is that I'm a very private

6:50

person. And this podcast has really

6:50

cracked me open. And I'm private,

6:58

but I'm not private with everyone.

6:58

So I'm very open with my close

7:03

friends, and I will share what I'm

7:03

going through. But coming on to the

7:08

podcast and sharing my life has

7:08

been really, really difficult. I

7:13

have to I have to own that, that. I

7:13

that's the part that when I said I

7:22

was gonna be vulnerable, and I was

7:22

gonna show up, I just didn't know

7:26

that some weeks were gonna be

7:26

really hard. I run a small

7:29

business. And some days like there

7:29

are no sales, these crickets, we've

7:36

been in a pandemic, and I am

7:36

struggling, I can't get out of bed,

7:41

I am just, you know, I I can get up

7:41

and put makeup on. You know, and I

7:49

don't do a lot of makeup. But I got

7:49

to show up and like talk about it.

7:53

And I just want to nap and watch

7:53

Netflix and not doing that having

7:59

to do that week, week after week.

7:59

Like I salute the people that show

8:04

up and do that. Because it's been

8:04

hell, it's been a hard year.

8:10

Yep. So it's been

8:10

hard. So like, what has been the

8:14

evolution or evolving from that

8:14

hard because hard can me like, I

8:18

don't ever want to do this again,

8:18

hard can also be in a relationship

8:21

like this is too much to go on. And

8:21

then hard can also mean how do I

8:26

reimagine this so that it's

8:26

something that is, you know, that

8:30

is really stick and stick and still

8:30

be part of my growth and part of

8:34

like something that's really healthy?

8:37

Yeah, I think part of it has

8:37

become going back and asking

8:42

myself, why am I doing this? You

8:42

know, and why did I start to do

8:46

this? And one of the reason I did

8:46

that was I started this podcast was

8:52

that I wanted to share our love

8:52

with other couples and share how it

8:59

is being an in an interracial

8:59

relationship. And also just have

9:04

fun, you know, that is like I have

9:04

to keep coming back to it was like,

9:09

I wanted to have fun. And I wanted

9:09

to be comfortable. That was the

9:14

other reason I wanted to feel

9:14

comfortable on camera. Because I

9:18

knew for the social enterprise that

9:18

I was a run that I needed that

9:23

skill.

9:25

And that worked by them because the first time you actually had an interview that was

9:27

then made as far as a like a an

9:32

event on on the micro mentor

9:32

website, for example, was like you

9:37

hit it out of the park you did so

9:37

well compared to when you first

9:41

started being on camera and you

9:41

were running the crowdfund for Ico

9:44

to nia. And so that was a that's

9:44

been a total success.

9:49

It's been a total success and

9:49

now it's coming back to that and

9:52

he's like, what was my Why have I

9:52

got into my Why? You know, and is

9:58

it time to Imagine because my why,

9:58

like, I feel comfortable on camera,

10:05

is it time to change the commitment

10:05

because I am no longer having fun,

10:12

necessarily recording. And so it's

10:12

kind of coming back to that I have

10:16

achieved what I started it for. So

10:16

it might be a good time to

10:23

reimagine what the podcast could

10:23

look like. And in that time, so

10:28

many things were created out of,

10:28

you know, out of this podcast, we

10:33

developed an amazing channel for

10:33

couples, because I would watch you,

10:39

you know, you've always journaled

10:39

since we got together. And you

10:45

journal your thoughts every single

10:45

morning, and I was like, I want to

10:49

journal like, I want to put down my

10:49

thoughts on paper. But every time I

10:54

went to put down my thoughts on

10:54

paper, I was like, What am I

10:57

supposed to talk about again? And

10:57

so I just was like, I don't know

11:02

what to write. And from that, I was

11:02

like, What if there was a journal

11:07

out there that had prompts? So I

11:07

don't have to keep asking questions

11:10

like this. And I was like, I am

11:10

ain't the only person out here who

11:13

can journal, you know? So out of

11:13

that we develop the lovers journal,

11:18

which, you know, I would never have

11:18

imagined that starting this podcast

11:24

would lead to that.

11:26

Right. You know, so

11:26

it's interesting, because there's

11:31

like this to these two pieces,

11:31

right, though, like, what did I

11:34

expect? Yeah, what did I come for

11:34

that I got? And then what are the

11:39

things that were totally unexpected

11:39

and unexpected, can be a total

11:44

disaster, or it can be a total

11:44

blessing, sometimes very much,

11:49

depending on how we approach that.

11:52

So the unexpected was, how

11:52

difficult it was going to be, and

11:57

how hard it was going for me to

11:57

share my personal life with the

12:01

world that if you had told me, I'll

12:01

be right now, but it was really

12:08

difficult for me. And also, the

12:08

other x unexpected thing was the

12:12

beauty of the lovers channel. So

12:12

take your take, you know, I don't

12:18

know, like, both of those two

12:18

things. I could choose to be like,

12:22

you know, I don't know.

12:23

Yeah. And I loved

12:23

it. So like, a couple weeks ago, we

12:25

were kind of like, butting heads a

12:25

little bit about where to go with

12:28

the podcast. And, and one of the

12:28

things that we decided is we're

12:32

actually gonna we're going on a two

12:32

month road trip, by the way. Yeah.

12:38

We I have never driven across

12:38

America.

12:40

So we're gonna drive across and we're gonna drive back across. We figure it'll be

12:42

somewhere between an eight and

12:45

10,000 mile trip for two months.

12:45

Pretty exciting. We're not going to

12:50

bring all of our lighting and we're

12:50

not going to bring everything with

12:53

us. Let's go. You know, we've you

12:53

know, Sarah's got eco dunia. We're

12:57

selling the lovers journals. I also

12:57

do my writing and my and my

13:00

coaching and my filming, started

13:00

filming another little documentary.

13:04

So there's a lot of stuff going on.

13:04

So I thought, well, you know, we're

13:07

going to go take a hike, you know,

13:07

we're going to, we're going to take

13:10

a pause and see what's going to

13:10

come and the beginning of this

13:13

conversation was challenging. You

13:13

was because when we started this,

13:18

Sara said, let's do 100 episodes,

13:22

without thinking like,

13:22

without re evaluating. Let's do

13:28

until we

13:29

let the evaluate at

13:29

100. Correct. And then we got to

13:32

about 65. And Sarah was like, I

13:32

want to reevaluate. And though it

13:37

was like, Well, what are we

13:37

reevaluating? We said, we're not

13:39

reevaluating. Until we had 100.

13:42

No, I said when you said

13:44

yeah, but I but that was but that became a mutual agreement. Correct. And now it's

13:46

shifting that agreement. And, and

13:52

it's just as like this microcosm of

13:52

a relationship, because

13:56

relationships, like we make certain

13:56

agreements, but then the world

13:59

changes, like so much happens, the

13:59

pandemic hit, you can always be

14:04

something, you know, it's there.

14:04

We're human beings. We're

14:07

individual human beings on our own

14:07

growth trajectory. And we can't

14:12

expect that what we said on

14:12

Tuesday, was going to compare hold

14:19

perfectly true on Thursday, without

14:19

regards to what happened on

14:23

Wednesday. And a lot happened on

14:23

Wednesday in this in this analogy,

14:29

and that was, that was hard for me.

14:29

In fact, even a lot of this stuff,

14:33

just the way that we work together.

14:33

There are challenges that come up.

14:37

And for me, because I have more of

14:37

this like, American, like Western,

14:44

like masculine mindset of push,

14:44

push. Yeah, like I'm I'm doing

14:50

bench presses in my shoulder feels

14:50

like it's ripping itself apart, but

14:54

I said I was gonna do 10 of these,

14:54

and I'm gonna go and injure myself.

15:00

In the process, because I'm going

15:00

to push through the challenges no

15:05

matter what, which is kind of

15:05

crazy, like, it's also kind of

15:10

cool. And it's kind of crazy. And

15:10

it can really leave people like me,

15:16

injured. And I had a friend who was

15:16

doing it, it was up 50 mile or 50

15:21

kilometer walk in Israel. And he

15:21

was like, I'm doing this, I'm

15:25

getting my, you know, he had, but

15:25

he had had to replace his knee or

15:28

his hip. And he was like, I'm gonna

15:28

do it, and I'm gonna push no matter

15:32

what, and he got halfway through.

15:32

And he stopped. And here's a guy

15:36

who's like, super, like type a kind

15:36

of, you know, fits the Alfa

15:40

stereotype. You know, he was like a

15:40

special ops in Israeli military.

15:44

And he was like, wait, if I don't

15:44

listen to my body, that's the

15:48

reason why, at my young age, I had

15:48

to replace him because I didn't

15:51

listen, I didn't know when to stop,

15:51

because I said I was going to do

15:55

what I was going to do it. And it

15:55

was this kind of like, beautiful,

15:59

this beautiful thing. And I he was

15:59

like talking about it. And I said,

16:03

you know, you actually did get to

16:03

your goal. You just thought your

16:08

goal was 25 miles further, it turns

16:08

out where you were going, was

16:13

halfway there physically so that

16:13

you could learn this lesson that

16:17

Where is my limit?

16:20

Yeah. And I think the hard

16:20

thing is to learn that lesson. But

16:25

to know that you're not quitting, I

16:25

think now has been one of the

16:28

hardest thing for me is that I want

16:28

to listen, and I know how to

16:34

listen. But I also don't want to

16:34

quit, right? I don't want to quit

16:38

too soon. So how do you come to

16:38

that point? You know, and I think

16:45

for us going on this two months

16:45

trip, feels like the point feels

16:51

like the point where we take a

16:51

break, from the way in the way that

16:58

we've done this podcast. I feel

16:58

like I've been thinking about it

17:03

for a while. And it feels that the

17:03

way we've done it, we've got what

17:10

we needed.

17:11

Right?

17:12

And the Walt got what he

17:12

needed from us. And I learned the

17:17

lesson that I needed to learn.

17:19

Yeah, and I feel

17:19

like the second thing you just said

17:21

there to me was kind of like

17:21

powerful, because we didn't have

17:24

any real purpose when we started

17:24

this, like, what is the end game?

17:29

It was a little bit nebulous,

17:29

right? It was like 100. Well, what

17:33

happens at 100? Yeah, why not?

17:33

200,000? Why not? 50? What happens

17:37

at that point? We didn't know. But

17:37

what happened during that time was

17:42

this work that we did with the

17:42

lovers journal, and like that has

17:47

been an offering that I know is

17:47

touch people because we've gotten

17:51

messages from people. Yeah. Now,

17:51

from the podcast, we haven't gotten

17:55

that many messages from people,

17:55

we're getting a few. And they've

17:57

been very, really heartwarming, but

17:57

more from this journal, we never

18:02

would have done the journal, if

18:03

it is bypassed.

18:05

And so I really

18:05

being present in the moment. And

18:09

one of the things that I just have to say that I love about our relationship is that you definitely

18:11

have this tendency to say, you know

18:14

what, I'm going to look at this,

18:14

and maybe see, like, this wasn't

18:17

working exactly as I thought. So

18:17

it's time to move or pivot or

18:20

change or drop it or whatever,

18:20

which I've so much to learn from. I

18:24

also am like, I'm just lowering my

18:24

shoulder and I'm plowing. And there

18:29

are times where there's friction in

18:29

those two things. And actually,

18:33

like the other like, the other day,

18:33

we were talking about it, you were

18:35

like really upset at me, for my way

18:35

of doing it. Which I think is a

18:41

little bit weird in some ways.

18:41

Because, like, you need, like, I

18:47

need that thing that you have. But

18:47

you also need this thing that I

18:51

have. And it's what makes our

18:51

relationship so red, that yeah, it

18:55

grinds. It's like the gears

18:55

grinding in between until we like

18:58

lock into gear like, okay, we're in

18:58

sync again. And that can be really

19:01

uncomfortable. But it's not a

19:01

problem. Now, you know, and there

19:06

were these moments where I'm like,

19:06

I felt like bolting was a problem.

19:08

I was like, Who is this person I'm

19:08

with and you're like, Who is this

19:11

person I'm with? You know, like,

19:11

you know, I've married a stick in

19:16

the mind nightmare, you know, and I

19:16

arrived marry like, he's just so

19:19

immovable. And, and whatever. And

19:19

for me, it was just like, she just

19:22

like gives up How is she like ever

19:22

going to like, make her dreams

19:25

happen or whatever. And it's like,

19:25

those are ridiculous. Wait places

19:29

that we both went in that with our

19:29

frustration with each other.

19:32

Whereas, like, but you know, so

19:32

it's almost like that this moment.

19:38

And fortunately, we lived in that

19:38

fairly short. It was just, you

19:40

know, a couple of days or something

19:40

if this place of being frustrated.

19:45

But out of those are like

19:45

completely different ways of

19:48

operating. We both get to like we

19:48

basically just have this amazing

19:53

life. And we get to have this

19:53

amazing relationship and we both

19:56

get to learn things and grow in

19:56

ways and I just want to say that

20:00

there was a part of that in kind of

20:00

coming out of the challenge of that

20:04

was like, Oh my god, like, it is so

20:04

nice to do things the way Sara does

20:11

them. You know, it's feel so good

20:11

and, and I respect how you work in

20:17

those challenging ways, where you

20:17

don't mind just saying, you know,

20:21

what I've been trying for a long

20:21

time clearly didn't work, drop it

20:25

move on to something else. That's

20:25

beautiful. And I love that. And I

20:30

hope that some of my stubbornness

20:30

or whatever brings the same kind of

20:36

going to benefit in your life or

20:36

feeling of like, steadiness that I

20:42

actually got from from you.

20:44

Yeah, it does. And so with

20:44

that, actually, in the steadiness

20:50

is where I feel like, I don't

20:50

necessarily want to make a firm

20:56

decision about the future of this

20:56

podcast. I just want, I want to do

21:03

our two months trip, reimagine what

21:03

it could be, maybe this is our last

21:09

episode, it might be this is, who

21:09

knows, like, we might continue, but

21:16

I know that the universe is gonna

21:16

reveal how we continue. Because I'm

21:22

just, I just don't, I think that in

21:22

the way that we had been doing it,

21:28

I got the lessons that I needed,

21:28

right. And so it's time to

21:33

reimagine How else or what else

21:33

this is going to evolve, to be,

21:39

right. So we are not going to be

21:39

around for two months,

21:44

we're going to be

21:44

on the road, and having a great

21:47

time. And we certainly hope that

21:47

you also have a wonderful summer,

21:51

last year in the southern hemisphere, then we hope you have a wonderful winter. And yeah, and I'm

21:53

really, you know, I'm just I'm

21:59

excited to see what's gonna come.

21:59

And I kind of want you to know, as

22:05

someone who's been listening to our

22:05

podcasts that we're so grateful

22:08

that you have lent us your time and

22:08

your ears, and your feedback when

22:13

you gave it and, you know, we're

22:13

always around, you know, we're

22:17

still you know, a journal for

22:17

lovers on on Instagram, and we're,

22:21

you know, the lovers journal.com.

22:21

And you can certainly follow up and

22:27

email us at any time and definitely

22:27

stay in touch. And let's just kind

22:31

of see where this goes and take

22:31

some of this, this reimagining from

22:36

this moment into other areas of our

22:36

life that are just saying, you can

22:40

you can you, you can reimagine

22:40

what's going on you. You can open

22:45

up you can be curious again, you

22:45

can say that everything that's come

22:50

before doesn't tell me how it needs

22:50

to move forward in the future. It's

22:54

just been a foundation that we can

22:54

stand on for the future, but not a

22:59

not a not a, like railway tracks

22:59

into the future.

23:03

Yeah, so from the bottom of

23:03

my heart. Thank you for tuning in

23:08

every week. For the last I don't

23:08

know how long. A year and a half.

23:14

Yeah. So yeah. So thank you for

23:14

letting us share ourselves with

23:19

you. And yeah, who knows, we'll see

23:19

what the world brings.

23:23

Yeah, and with

23:23

that, have a beautiful few months

23:28

full of love and joy, and we are

23:28

filled with gratitude and to share

23:35

that gratitude with you moving

23:35

forward, whenever and whoever that

23:39

may be.