0:00

Oh Tommy, Kel Weekend, Kel Nui,

0:03

Kel Weekend. It was certainly,

0:05

it was Tré Bon, Pormoire,

0:09

Tommy,

0:13

I enjoyed it. Stop it mate, you know I hate

0:16

it, you know I hate it. Well no, it's the last pod. Shut

0:18

up. Arete Vu, Arete Vu. I

0:20

enjoyed it, along with 80,000 and 64 other people,

0:25

I enjoyed it with a couple of chilled glasses

0:27

of champagne, actually. I took a

0:29

picture of it and a few people have

0:31

said, oh a nice glass of Vin

0:33

Blanc, nice glass of white. No, I

0:36

need everyone to know that it was champagne because

0:39

I'm just that level above, okay. It

0:41

was very, very nice night for Les Sous D'Afrique.

0:44

They did the job on New Zealand, narrowest of margins.

0:46

Some people are calling it a great World Cup

0:48

final, some people are calling it an epic, some people

0:50

are calling it the best ever. A tonne

0:52

to talk about Tommy. How was it for you fella?

0:55

Did you love the final? Yes I did. How

0:57

can you not love the final mate? It's the final of the Rugby

0:59

World Cup. It was unbelievably

1:02

close. I do think the Rugby

1:04

World Cup is a bit like you and a night out. I think we

1:06

peaked a little bit too early, we peaked at the quarters

1:09

because that weekend was unreal

1:11

but you're going to get that, aren't you? Semi-finals,

1:13

finals. It's not about the style of rugby you

1:15

play when you get to the knockout stages. It is

1:18

all about winning, all about winning. That's all

1:20

you're thinking about. You're not thinking, oh God, we better go

1:22

out here for the final and entertain everyone and play

1:24

some good rugby. If we win, we win.

1:26

Who cares? These guys care massively

1:29

and it was all about the stat on

1:31

the scoreboard. You look at some of those moments, you

1:33

look at things like the odd

1:35

drop ball, the odd miss kick and

1:37

all that and then you think, oh if Jordie Barrett

1:39

had got that kick or if Richie Moana had got that

1:41

or poor old Sam Kane. I mean a word

1:43

on him in a minute, brutal for him. Just feel so sorry

1:46

for him but not that it was the wrong call, I just feel

1:48

so sorry for that man. But then

1:50

you look at Peter Steffty-Toyt and you think, I'm

1:54

not going for the whole deserving thing as you know, but

1:56

to have that guy on a losing side would have

1:59

felt a bit wrong I think. 128 tackles, I think you

2:01

made. 128 tackles you made. Amazing.

2:06

Did you ever know stats when you were playing? Did

2:08

you have tackle counts or anything like that? Yeah.

2:11

You must have gone over 20 a couple of times.

2:13

Ask me my best ever.

2:14

Biggest ever tackle count, Dave. What is it?

2:18

All aggressive hits though. 100% dominant

2:21

collisions. 12 shots, none missed. 12 turnovers.

2:25

13 out of the 12, that's it. How

2:28

many attempted jackals in a whole career won

2:31

right in the last year? Because I knew my shoulders would go, mate. And

2:33

I got whacked from the side, I thought I'm doing that again. No way. Yeah,

2:36

but you'd be a different player now. Oh, I'd be flat out

2:38

now. Players spend loads more time on flexibility.

2:41

And people actually do their rehab now and they get injured. That

2:43

separates the old from the new. So

2:46

what's it like being back home in your

2:48

listed building in the city of Bath? Has it been

2:50

tough? Have you enjoyed it? But is it nice now

2:53

to come back to your fault? I came

2:55

back to an empty house.

2:57

My wife and kids

2:59

are on their way back from somewhere.

3:01

So I had half an hour on my own when I got back, which is, as

3:03

you know,

3:04

no one admits it, but it's the best half an hour of your life. What'd

3:06

you do? I watched car videos on YouTube. Same

3:09

as I always do. That's what I do. On the throne in

3:11

the toilet? No, I'm not an animal, so

3:13

far. Then they got back and

3:15

you've got a baby with a

3:17

cold, a toddler with a cold, and

3:20

a dog who about an hour after they get back, finds

3:23

a nappy somewhere that hasn't been locked in a bin, eats

3:26

it and spreads it out over the carpet.

3:29

You know me, Tommy. I don't complain. I'm like

3:31

Sia Khaleesi. I just get on with the job. All

3:33

days complain. All days complain. That's a fact.

3:36

All I want is an immaculate house,

3:39

loads of food ready for me to eat whenever I want

3:41

it, and the ability to go to the gym whenever I want

3:44

and stop for a coffee on the way there and on the way back, and

3:46

that not make me a bad dad. That isn't how it

3:48

works. So I'm just here faking

3:51

it like everyone else, mate. Been to the gym already, you're

3:53

asking. Got up at five. So, Tardier

3:55

listeners, Shanks in the gym this morning, he sent

3:58

me quite a funny picture of... you don't

4:00

know what a Jim bro is this guy was a Jim

4:02

bro at six o'clock this morning so do you want to explain

4:04

his outfit Tommy? It wasn't the biggest guy I don't

4:07

know what type of vest you call him where it comes really

4:09

low down by your side it's

4:11

really loose so you can you can basically see

4:13

how but you can see a lot of side boob you

4:15

have slammers on as well so he was doing

4:18

upper body with weight lifting shoes

4:20

on I sent a picture of him saying to

4:22

the flat I love this guy he's basically

4:25

looks like he should be working out in Venice

4:27

gym for Mr. Olympia when

4:30

he's a fitness first in Cardiff I used to go to the

4:32

CrossFit gym

4:34

in Bath and it was great and I'd have made that would

4:36

go in there is a top bloke and he

4:38

was the least beastly man you've ever seen about

4:41

five foot eight you know carrying a few extra

4:43

pounds not genetically gifted in terms

4:45

of strength and fitness right very bright

4:47

guy and he just wore variations

4:49

of the same t-shirt that said beast mode

4:52

on them and you'd see

4:54

him just finishing off a cigarette before he came in at

4:56

sort of 715 in the morning and flick it to the side

4:59

and he'd sort of cough up a little bit and

5:01

say right here we go beast mode they're

5:03

my favorite guys you see people in the gym and they just wear

5:05

the same kit exactly the same kit

5:07

every single day I just wonder where they've got

5:10

like seven of the same vest

5:12

and seven of the same shorts or they just

5:14

recycle it I'm that guy you probably have

5:16

to get your t-shirts and shorts back in Savile Row don't you

5:18

made in Savile Row so costing three bags

5:21

a gym kit couldn't find shorts that fit then

5:23

found some

5:24

and

5:26

bought six pairs of the same shorts

5:28

about five years ago they go below the

5:30

knee the NBA

5:35

their Chicago Bulls shorts retro but

5:37

I bought some shorts that fit ish ish and

5:40

I got two t-shirts that I rotate and

5:43

they are both from a

5:45

other brands are available a Nike kit drop

5:48

that Richard Hill organized for us when

5:50

you and I were at Saris and they

5:52

are from circa 99 2000 I'm

5:55

not joking holes in the lot

5:58

don't do flash gears for the gym fella don't do

8:00

Pollard's call up to start

8:02

in the final and how do you

8:04

think someone like Mani Lebok is going to cope

8:06

with basically being the number one choice

8:09

through all of tournament

8:11

come the final see you later? Yeah,

8:13

I thought I was happy with the selection

8:16

in the semi-final to stick with Mani

8:18

and to bring

8:20

Andre off the bench obviously it

8:22

didn't go too well for Mani in that game and then Andre

8:25

got to play the 50 minutes which showed

8:27

that he could probably push himself to go for

8:29

the full 80 in the final. So I was happy

8:31

with the selection after the semi it

8:33

was the one choice well one change

8:36

to the team that I would have made myself I would

8:38

have put Andre to start in

8:40

saying that I felt really sorry for Mani I thought he's

8:42

been outstanding for the spring marks brought something

8:45

new and different to the way they play and I

8:47

think he'll take a lot of confidence still

8:50

going back home now to play in the URC

8:52

for the Stormers He will take a lot

8:54

of confidence from the World Cup. He must

8:56

keep his head up and I think after

8:58

that Irish game He missed a few kicks, but since then

9:01

I can't recall him missing another one So

9:04

he needs to keep his head up high and he

9:06

should be very proud of himself Yeah, brilliant player.

9:09

Talk us through the coaching setup in

9:11

South Africa because

9:13

you didn't replace a specialized

9:15

hooker where Malcolm Marks went out You've

9:18

had four scrum halves in your

9:20

squad you had a 10 that started the

9:22

final that wasn't included in you've gone for a 7-1 split

9:25

again on the bench

9:27

Like it's incredible. Yeah, I

9:30

think they are they were remarkable

9:32

to Jacques and Rasi I think they've

9:35

been very innovative I think the

9:37

7-1 when they did it

9:39

the first time against New Zealand that tweaking

9:42

him. I thought it was just Because

9:44

Cheezin had picked up a nickel that he didn't

9:46

want to risk anyone else really So he just thought

9:49

let's go with the 7-1. It's nothing

9:52

game really. So yeah, it

9:54

was quite a strange one And then they went for it

9:56

now in the final again. So yeah,

9:58

I think they've been amazing I think just

10:01

if you just see the way that players absolutely

10:03

adore the two of them and I think that for any

10:05

coaches Exactly what you want you want the guys

10:07

to almost run through a wall for

10:10

you And I think the spring box team will

10:12

definitely do it for the two of them So they've

10:14

definitely got it right and I think

10:17

they were throwing a lot of curve balls The malcom

10:19

marks injury a few injuries before

10:21

the wolf cup. I think hondre lukanya

10:24

arm and yurta yoga and then obviously

10:26

malcom going down and then only having Bongi

10:30

as the real specialist hooker there Yeah,

10:32

it was it was quite a risky one to See

10:35

hondre but in saying that i'm not too sure

10:37

just wherever was probably the next hooker

10:40

to come up And they probably thought they'd

10:42

rather risk it and take hondre and it ended

10:45

up working out perfectly on the players adoring

10:47

them and all that There's this there's a funny balance

10:49

Isn't there at pro level where people

10:51

say things like you don't need your coach to be your best

10:54

mate You need your coach to yeah technically

10:56

improve you and there is a balance there Because

10:59

you know, I could walk in there and be friendly, but I couldn't coach

11:01

the guys, you know And you'll have great coaches who don't really

11:03

have relationships with the players off

11:05

the training field You've been right to the top and

11:07

won it and you're now friends a lot to these guys that have just

11:10

won it again Back to back the

11:12

emotional buy-in the fact that you're taking

11:14

a field for someone you actually To represent

11:16

someone you actually love and you don't want to lose

11:18

for them and let them down Would you

11:21

rather have a coach who was just wasn't bothered

11:23

about being your mate? But was technically excellent or

11:25

someone who really really bought into you as a

11:27

person and tried to get the best out of you

11:29

Emotionally, where would you sit? I would I would like

11:31

my head coach to be invested

11:34

in me as a person and um I

11:36

agree. I wouldn't want I don't want it to be my best

11:39

buddy I need him to be harsh with me and and

11:41

tell me when I step out of line But for

11:44

me the head coach needs to be a people's

11:46

person Tell the truth and

11:49

have the buy-in of the of all the players and then

11:52

my technical side I would like the assistant coaches

11:54

to have that so your forward coach your back

11:56

line coach come with the technicalities

11:59

and Yeah, I think for

12:01

me, that's a great recipe.

12:04

I think someone like Jacques has

12:06

probably got a bit of both. He's really invested in

12:08

the and cares deeply for his players, but

12:11

he's technically also very,

12:13

very clever and comes

12:15

up with some exciting things. Of course,

12:18

his main thing is defence and the

12:20

spring box strength is their defence. And Butchee,

12:23

every rugby team in the world from under-8s

12:26

all the way through to the spring box who've just won

12:28

the World Cup, talk about belief

12:30

and you've got to have belief and believe, boys, believe.

12:33

You know, you watch as much rugby as we do. We

12:35

all watch a lot of rugby because we enjoy it and

12:37

it's our job and all that stuff. A lot

12:39

of the time, the talk about belief can be a bit synthetic.

12:41

It can be just the stuff you say. I don't

12:44

know if I've seen a team that believes

12:46

in themselves and can go that deep, that repeatedly

12:49

as this spring box team. And all that they

12:51

talk about playing for the country, it's far more than

12:53

just winning games of rugby. I actually, when I

12:55

first hear it, I think to myself, oh, come on, this

12:58

is just good PR. This is stuff you say. I

13:00

feel like I really believe it now. Do you believe it? This

13:02

stuff is real, isn't it? No, it's definitely

13:05

real. It's been great to experience

13:07

it at home for the last two World

13:09

Cups. Just to see the country get

13:11

behind the team and how much it

13:13

means to all the people of South Africa.

13:17

It's just amazing. The

13:19

belief in the team, I think, it's definitely

13:22

changed with this squad. Since

13:25

about 2018, these

13:27

guys have gotten together and they

13:29

seem to win those games right at the death

13:31

of a few points behind. Even

13:33

the quarter and semi-final, I mean, the

13:36

semi-final, I still don't know how we won that

13:38

game. We were nowhere in

13:40

that whole game except for maybe five minutes.

13:43

Yeah, I don't know how they snuck through

13:46

there and got to win both those

13:48

games. And then on Saturday, I thought

13:50

they were the better team in the first half and then New

13:52

Zealand, the better team in the second half. And under

13:55

all that pressure, they still managed to hang on

13:57

to it. South Africa team that don't necessarily

13:59

want to play.

13:59

too much ball, they rely on their defence

14:02

a lot, they're quite happy too as well. But

14:04

give us a low down on Peter Staftey

14:06

type on the weekend because he

14:09

was man of the match I think by

14:11

a

14:12

country mile. No, look, I

14:14

don't think I've ever seen, he's a brilliant rugby

14:16

player, I've never seen him play a game like

14:19

that in my life before, he was just amazing

14:21

and I think he's got a lot

14:24

of drive within himself and I

14:26

think he would have known that if he has to put

14:29

in a good shift in a good game there's a good

14:31

chance that we could win the game.

14:33

So I think that would have carried him through

14:35

most of that game and yeah he's just

14:37

got an engine on him, he can run and go

14:40

all day long and I thought

14:42

he was outstanding and one of the best games

14:45

from number seven I would say we've

14:47

ever seen. And also the most talked

14:49

about Springbok of this generation

14:52

would be Sia Khaleesi for lots and lots of

14:54

reasons, there's a real interesting dynamic

14:56

around England rugby where it's

14:59

really really hard to get access

15:01

to the players to do interviews and

15:03

features and not all players love

15:05

doing media but it's kind of like there doesn't

15:07

seem to be anyone telling them this is what

15:09

you do, the atmosphere around it is really

15:11

closed and then you see Sia

15:14

Khaleesi just wandering up and down the touch line 10

15:16

minutes after he's won a World Cup offering,

15:19

no problem, I can do your channel, no problem, come

15:21

and speak to you, no problem. Because we're

15:24

English or British and we're cynical, we're

15:26

cynical about everything, we don't believe, we

15:28

want to question everything. There was a little point

15:30

where you're thinking is this guy too good to be true, is

15:33

this real? A bit like the belief thing and it

15:35

appears that he is real and he's just the

15:37

best guy and the best leader that

15:39

world sport has ever seen. Has he achieved

15:42

god-like status? Is he going to take over as Francois

15:45

Pienaar, as

15:47

the all-time great? Yeah I think

15:50

he's an amazing guy, like you

15:52

say I mean after a game he'll spend an

15:54

extra 10-20-30 minutes signing

15:57

for the fans and the same as when he walks

15:59

around. Durbin if he's having

16:02

a dinner and people want photos,

16:04

he sometimes even offers. If he sees a little boy

16:07

staring at him, he will often say, do you

16:10

want to have a photo? He's just

16:12

so approachable that I'm

16:15

sure you guys get vlogged

16:19

at all the games with all the fans

16:21

around you two guys. I've

16:25

never seen him say no or get upset

16:28

or not smile at a fan. He's

16:30

just an amazing person when it comes to

16:32

that and amazing leader. It's

16:35

our elections next year so I

16:38

would love him to throw his name

16:40

in the hat there because he would do a wonderful

16:42

job for it.

16:43

Where next for the Spring Box? Are you obviously going

16:45

to get quite a few players that are going to retire

16:48

after this World Cup? But if you look at the URC

16:50

and the players coming through, regardless

16:52

of the finances that's going on in Rugby,

16:55

you're still producing lots and lots

16:57

of new talent.

16:58

It's in a good place, isn't it? I think South

17:00

come rugby. Yeah, it is. We're

17:03

very fortunate that we've got brilliant schools

17:06

in South Africa that are producing great

17:09

rugby players year in and year out.

17:11

That's probably our biggest asset

17:14

is our schools and the rugby

17:16

playing schools. Lucky

17:18

to say, there are so many youngsters coming through in this squad

17:20

that was there at the World Cup. I think there will

17:23

probably be a handful that

17:25

will retire in the next

17:28

year and then obviously before the next World

17:30

Cup, there will probably be six or

17:32

so that would maybe not make it there.

17:34

So there are a lot of youngsters coming through

17:36

and those guys that are retiring, there

17:38

is a backup for them that is

17:41

maybe just as good or

17:43

in a few years time might be better. So it

17:46

is promising. There are maybe

17:48

one or two positions that we might be a little bit short

17:50

at the moment, but hopefully some youngsters

17:53

can come through and pull in there. But yeah,

17:55

I think it is in a good place at the moment and

17:59

obviously our coaches also... they're leaving now to

18:01

Ireland. So that'll be an interesting call

18:03

as well if Rossi just slots in and fills

18:05

in there while they find someone that

18:08

they would think will be suitable to replace

18:10

Jacques. And yeah, if Rossi

18:13

and Jacques actually leave, I think it would be

18:15

a little bit of a worry. That'd be big. That'd be interesting,

18:17

wouldn't it? Because they've, it turns out they've made

18:19

some punchy calls. Rossi's, I think,

18:21

without getting too deep into the last couple of years,

18:23

he's done a few things that you wouldn't call ideal

18:26

in the press, but actually

18:28

they've done some genius things as well and they are the best

18:30

team on the planet, two World Cups in a row.

18:33

So that sort of proves it. Butch, in

18:35

terms of what's next for you, before

18:37

we let you go, I've got people I know really

18:39

well at Leicester Tigers and they will have,

18:41

if you want to pay for it, they will have dirt on

18:43

Andre Pollard. They'll have something and

18:46

he's done well this guy, but we need to wipe him out. Yeah,

18:49

myself, me and Fronzo Pina, he's

18:51

gonna get some dirt on Sia so that he can

18:53

remain, him and John can remain the

18:55

best springboard captains, but I think

18:58

they're gonna have to find a lot of deaths to make

19:00

sure that their name is up there still

19:02

and then if you guys can get that on Pollard,

19:04

please. Now leave it with me because he

19:06

did some really, really bad stuff when he was at Leicester, really

19:09

bad. Next time I come over, can

19:12

you just look after me, Butch, and we'll wipe this guy out, okay?

19:14

No, you thought it, you thought it, yeah. Yeah,

19:16

unfortunately, I think he might be, he might be absolutely

19:19

perfect. Even, did you notice during the final,

19:21

he cut his cheek and he had that perfect like Rambo

19:23

blood streak on his cheek. That was absolutely

19:25

perfect. Perfect, like these pictures will last

19:27

forever and he's looked at the screens, they all look at the screens,

19:30

he's seen it and he thought I'm not even wiping that

19:32

because this is perfect. It was makeup.

19:36

Butch, thanks for coming on my butt and

19:38

see you soon, lots of love buddy. Nice to

19:40

chat again, nice to chat as

19:43

well. Thanks Butch, cheers boys. Oh

19:45

mate, he's looking good, isn't he? No,

19:47

I know. Do you know he's got a tattoo

19:49

on his back? No. Get the first

19:51

hit in, even if it's late. Yeah,

19:54

he was, he wasn't shy

19:56

of colliding. Oh mate,

19:59

I'm not sure he would. suited today's

20:01

game, he'd have to adopt his tackle technique, but

20:04

back when he played, some of the shots

20:06

he put in, oh my days mate.

20:08

Often you want to target 10s, you see it all

20:10

the time because 10s are smaller,

20:13

they just are, they're smaller than centres, they're smaller than

20:15

obviously back rows, but you never

20:18

ever wanted to go down his channel because he would

20:20

knock you and

20:21

he would rock you,

20:22

next minute you'd be on your butt. Hey rock you and knock

20:24

you and he'll absolutely give it a thing is Tommy,

20:27

what we found is, because obviously the

20:29

listeners wouldn't remember because there's probably quite a few,

20:31

I butch played at Bath where I was for a few

20:33

years and, ooh Bath friends,

20:35

Bath friends, but what we found is that as

20:38

soon as you got Butch James, a bit like having Johnny Wilkinson,

20:41

it really helps your team when you've got the ball, when

20:43

you haven't got the ball, suddenly your

20:46

13s and your back three become really really important

20:48

defensively because people don't target your 10 channel

20:50

anymore, there's always moves that run on a 10 channel,

20:53

but Butch just leathered people, he leathered

20:55

everyone that came anywhere near him and

20:57

actually yeah now and again he's a bit naughty

20:59

but generally he's just a brilliant hitter, it's

21:02

exhausting to play as a prop to play with

21:04

a player like Butch James or Johnny because everyone

21:06

goes wide all the time because they don't want to come anywhere near

21:08

him, so actually you're constantly going east

21:10

to west and it was tough for my fitness Tommy,

21:12

that's all I'm saying. So World Cup final,

21:15

let's get into it, let's get into the game. Couple

21:17

of specifics, don't need to be here all day because everyone's read 100

21:19

versions of it already but Wayne

21:22

Barnes first of all, now I was in

21:24

a swanky box sipping bubbly

21:26

but I did keep my eye on the game and

21:28

I have watched it back of course with

21:30

kids on my knee which is makes it quite difficult but

21:33

I thought while there is no such thing as a

21:35

perfect performance from a human being in a game of

21:37

sport, thought Barnes did really well

21:39

yet I'm hearing that of course

21:42

as is de rigueur these days, there

21:44

are people going mad online and sending horrible

21:46

stuff to him and whatever, what did you make

21:48

of it? I agree with your comment about Barnes,

21:51

he didn't call a red card, it was a yellow,

21:53

the bunker system which is separate to the game,

21:56

that's where the red card came from so it wasn't Wayne

21:58

Barnes that gave Sam King a red card.

21:59

card. Heavily involved Barnsey was,

22:02

which you're going to get on a game

22:04

like that because it's a final, because it's going to be

22:06

scrutinised because of the weather conditions. Weather

22:08

plays a huge factor

22:10

in sport in rugby.

22:12

More so I think in rugby because you have to adopt your

22:14

game plan to it. As soon as I saw the weather,

22:16

I'm thinking this suits South Africa.

22:19

It just does because the ball is going

22:21

to be unbelievably slippery. It's going to be hard for New Zealand

22:23

to get the ball a little bit wide. South Africa,

22:26

one of their main strengths I think

22:28

is their back line and their spot blitzing. They

22:30

don't often

22:31

blitz like a team. They could see the full line

22:34

coming up. They just make really good

22:36

decisions that they've acquired over time. They've

22:38

acquired a certain set of skills over time that make

22:40

them very dangerous. A bit like Liam Neeson.

22:42

They will find you and they will chop you. But look

22:45

at the wingers. Look at Creel. They

22:47

come out the line. They read the play

22:49

really well and there's a massive level of intelligence

22:52

there to know what to do because you see it

22:54

at Lowe's in league rugby. Like

22:57

the Gallagher or the URC. You

22:59

see at Lowe's where players shoot out the line. They

23:01

make wrong calls and that's where the gap is.

23:04

They punish for it but these

23:06

guys, these South African teams

23:08

are so intelligent in how they defend

23:11

and they shut down attacks

23:13

like you wouldn't believe. Even more so in

23:15

these conditions. We have to talk about Sam

23:17

Kane, the red card because

23:20

that obviously changed the game. Early doors

23:22

as well. There were some issues with South Africa.

23:25

They lost to Benambe really early which was

23:27

a massive blow for them because Dion Furee

23:29

had to play a large part

23:31

of that game as hooker when predominantly

23:34

he is back row.

23:35

But your views on

23:37

the Sam Kane before I go? Absolutely

23:39

the right decision and as nice

23:42

as romantic an idea as it is to say yeah but it's

23:44

a World Cup final so can

23:46

we go a little bit state of origin rugby league

23:49

and just let the boys play and don't

23:51

want to ruin the game. Absolutely the right call

23:53

and so often we say oh

23:56

no it's game over. It's game over. We do it, you

23:58

do it, I do it. So often red cards. are

24:00

not game over anymore because teams are incredibly

24:02

fit, they've got eight fit guys on the bench, they

24:05

can deal with it, it doesn't help, but they can deal with

24:07

it. And New Zealand absolutely

24:09

could have won that game without Sam Kane, just

24:11

from a rugby point of view, that was what it was,

24:14

the right call. But from a human point of view,

24:16

I just feel desperate for that guy because he just

24:18

gets pumped in the press anyway, constantly

24:21

questioned and whatever a lot of, you know, journalists opinions

24:23

are legitimate and all that, but huge amount of pressure

24:25

on him. He really came good at this World

24:27

Cup. And he will forever be the All

24:30

Blacks captain who got sent off on a World Cup final that they

24:32

lost by a point. I mean, it is just you saw

24:34

him, you saw him realise

24:36

what had happened, absolute panic

24:38

and then bang put the stony face on because he didn't

24:41

want to show weakness. And it caught

24:43

Chesley Colby later on when he got the yellow was less

24:45

able to disguise his despair. But

24:47

I just felt and feel just awful

24:50

for Sam Kane. And I sort of hope he's got

24:52

I'm sure he's got good people around him. I'm going to do a bit

24:54

of my poo catch now and ask you some questions.

24:56

Do you think that Jesse

24:58

Creel changed direction

25:00

and the height that he ran into Sam Kane

25:03

could have been a mitigating factor? No,

25:05

because the tackle is never low. He knows

25:07

the collision is imminent and he's never low. So

25:10

game over. Your mitigations don't matter. Do

25:12

you think there should be a system where it

25:14

was trialled in super rugby where you get a 20

25:16

minute red card

25:18

where the player gets sent off but can't come back

25:20

on? What you've got then is

25:22

you've got the thing where is it

25:24

foul play or is it an accident? And there

25:26

is foul play these days, but there isn't that much like

25:28

there aren't people deliberately doing people's knees. No one's

25:30

punching or elbowing or gouging anymore,

25:33

really. So you're asking rest to make

25:35

grey area decisions again, whereas this system

25:37

actually allows them to do the yellow.

25:39

I think the bunker system has really worked actually

25:42

where it doesn't work is when you're a

25:44

fan in the stadium. Think ITV

25:46

with 7.7 million for that final. So

25:48

I realised people in the crowd

25:50

are a very small number compared with that, but

25:53

let the people who are there live know

25:55

what's happening because I'm sitting with clients

25:57

and mates and sponsors and they're saying what's happening? looking

26:00

at I said I couldn't tell you I could not tell you the

26:02

French replays as we know are almost

26:04

entirely random timing and selection

26:07

is almost entirely random we've got no idea what we're gonna

26:09

get so you see someone score a try and they

26:11

replay a tackle from three minutes ago it's not quite

26:13

that severe but it's not far off so

26:16

I'm sitting there as a supposed expert

26:18

compared with other people on the row of seats I'm

26:20

on and no idea. I'm

26:22

not just saying this now because it is the final

26:25

I've seen a lot worse red cards than that 100%

26:28

it was yellow card

26:30

but I think

26:31

the power and the force is coming from Jesse

26:33

Creel is moving I think there's a change direction

26:35

Sam Kane isn't looking to

26:37

tackle him as you know he's not

26:39

moving forward he is upright I get

26:42

that he is upright he's looking to turn

26:44

he's looking to grab Jesse Creel turn him

26:46

on the floor which you see all the time turn him

26:48

to New Zealand side the force

26:51

is coming from Creel he does not

26:53

dip which is ultimately the reason

26:55

why he got red carded but

26:58

I'm just torn

26:59

between a yellow and a red which makes me

27:02

in that amber zone yeah but you're I think

27:04

you're torn between knowing

27:06

the laws as they stand and knowing that he didn't get

27:09

low at any point so he's off and knowing

27:12

what you think the laws should be right

27:14

it's different not all

27:16

tackles where people remain upright are red

27:18

cards not all because they're mitigating

27:20

factors see it all the time you're not always

27:23

gonna get a red card if you're upright it depends what

27:25

the mitigating factors are coming into that so

27:27

I am torn it's not just me flat of course

27:29

yeah I'm not the only one saying this of

27:32

course yeah yeah of course like all these things but

27:35

you've also got all of us a lot in TV studios

27:37

thinking what we're gonna say about this because we don't

27:39

know if it's yellow or red in it that would be

27:41

another real takeaway for

27:43

world rugby would be the confusion around that

27:45

it was a red and a lot of people can understand

27:48

why it was a red it wasn't that controversial

27:50

where you're thinking I don't want to say but

27:52

I'm just a little bit torn between a yellow and a red that's

27:55

just my view whereas the Sia Khaleesi one he's

27:57

bent at the hips he's trying to get low yes

27:59

he is very different and some

28:02

of the impact is shoulder first

28:04

before head is made. The stats

28:07

though like New Zealand with 40 men

28:09

had

28:11

they had nearly 150 carries they had seven breaks there

28:15

was like 37 defenders beaten South

28:17

Africa were just happy just to defend and

28:20

let New Zealand attack them. The

28:22

big difference was

28:24

points for goal New Zealand gave four penalties

28:26

away in their half, parlour knelt every

28:28

single one. New Zealand had a couple of chances

28:31

to go for goal they went for the line out didn't

28:33

come away with anything so the red zone efficiency was

28:36

huge for South Africa and the amount

28:38

of turnovers that New Zealand had as well and

28:40

that is down to conditions because

28:42

New Zealand then started to figure out

28:45

we're not going to be able to

28:46

beat South Africa just by taking them

28:48

on physically we have to try and shift the ball wide

28:50

and they went to shift the ball wide there were

28:52

quite a few knock-ons because it is wet it

28:55

is poor conditions you have to be so

28:57

accurate in that

28:58

and could have gone either way Barrett had

29:00

that kick at the end it

29:02

was an unbelievable final for loads of reasons

29:04

but I thought it's quite interesting how they obviously

29:06

did their prep did the box and

29:08

saw Richie Mowanga defending in the backfield quite

29:10

a lot heavy rain he got pumped

29:13

with high kicks in that first half didn't

29:15

go well rarely went well for him lots

29:17

of pressure decent kicks they could you know they could

29:19

compete with New Zealand put a lot of ball on the

29:22

floor in their own third they kind of

29:24

played all the rugby in a sense for a lot of the

29:26

game not all the game because actually in that first

29:28

half from set piece South Africa really threatening

29:31

using Colby coming left to right a few times they

29:33

made a lot of ground and look you know New Zealand was

29:35

scrambling to defend them so they didn't play all the

29:37

rugby stats are stats they are but South

29:40

Africa have won four World Cups the only World Cup

29:42

final in which they scored a try was four years ago

29:45

they haven't scored a try in the other three so they've won

29:47

three out of four without scoring a try as

29:49

you said earlier playing all the rugby

29:51

that isn't the point winning World Cup finals

29:54

is where it's at and they're very very

29:56

good very very very good at

29:59

winning knockout rugby. They're good at knockout

30:01

rugby. At knockout rugby in three games

30:03

on the bounce, one by a point. It's

30:05

the finest of margins. There's decisions like the R.D.

30:07

Surveyor penalty, which Wayne Barnes

30:09

then says, you know, I didn't see that. And this is kind of happens.

30:12

This is what rugby is. This isn't in the last minute. This

30:14

is the game. It's every game that happens. It's

30:16

infinite variables. You know, it's human bodies coming

30:19

in at different angles with different levels of

30:21

fatigue and whether it's something like

30:23

infinite variables going into each breakdown

30:25

or not far off a lot of variables. So very,

30:28

very hard for it to be immaculate. But

30:30

I just think that the South Africans look

30:32

like they did their homework very,

30:34

very well indeed. And New Zealand were always

30:36

going to be threatening at points. But South Africa

30:38

managed them so well in the Kirtley Arrins to tackle

30:41

in the corner. The last ditch tackle, I think it

30:43

was on Rico, Juwani. It's like that kind of

30:45

stuff that is it's desperation

30:47

tackling. But every team has produced

30:49

that at some point in this World Cup. They just produce

30:51

it when they need it. Their bench is unbelievable

30:54

as well.

30:54

And the effect they have, these players that come

30:56

off the bench onto the team is just

30:59

huge. The Onfuri, I mean, the

31:02

line outs weren't great. But what a player. What

31:04

a player. Quagger Smith, R.G.

31:06

Sniman. These guys have a huge

31:08

impact. The front row, the bomb squad coming on. All

31:11

of these players have such a big impact

31:14

on the game. It's incredible. It's not just 15

31:16

because 50, 60 minutes. Well, sometimes

31:19

after 30 minutes,

31:20

these boys come off the bench, come onto the

31:22

game

31:23

and end up turning the game around and win it for them. It's

31:26

it's a huge effort. It's a massive squad effort. There

31:28

was one New Zealand mall, they

31:30

caught and drive a line out and tried to mall right

31:32

in the South African line in the second half.

31:35

And I was just right above that. And I just watched

31:37

Dion Burry there and

31:39

he's and he's not a big man by modern

31:41

standards. And he just was working

31:44

so hard. And he just ripped

31:46

through the middle of straight through the

31:48

middle, all legal, ripped through the middle

31:50

of the All Blacks Mall. And I was just like, that's the

31:52

sort of thing that 99.9 percent of people won't

31:55

notice. But without him, there is a very good

31:57

chance they score at that point. It

32:00

was set up quite nicely. Therefore,

32:02

there was a very good chance they don't win the World Cup. You know,

32:05

tons of those moments over the course of a game, but 37

32:08

years old, oldest ever springbok debutante,

32:10

and now he's a World Cup winner. Amazing

32:12

story, amazing set of gambles from

32:15

the South African management. Just wonderful

32:17

for them. Do feel for Ian Foster a

32:19

bit, as we've spoken about before. Obviously, feel

32:21

for Sam Kane, but feel for Ian Foster,

32:23

because he was told he was getting the sack before he even

32:25

landed in France. And you think, well, that is a bit rough.

32:28

Wouldn't it have been nice if he could have done a two-fingered

32:30

salute on the way out, helped with a picture of him

32:32

holding the World Cup. But I don't suppose he'll be short

32:34

of options. I think he'll be all right for cups of tea and toast.

32:37

Yeah, it'll be fine, it'll be fine. A quick reflection

32:39

on the home nations then, Tommy, because we've covered all

32:41

of their tournaments in detail on earlier pods

32:44

when they got knocked out of the tournament. What's the general

32:46

move in Wales, please? That's good, mate, it's good.

32:49

We used to call the final. There wasn't that much

32:51

expectation from us. Good game

32:53

against Fiji, good game against Australia.

32:56

Looking back,

32:57

probably should have beaten Argentina because we had

32:59

the chances. But scoring more

33:01

tries, I think, last year, year

33:04

before, we were averaging maybe two and a half tries a game.

33:06

Coming out of this World Cup, we were averaging four, which

33:09

is where you need to be at. So attack

33:11

was the issue coming into this, and

33:13

we certainly look better in attack. So all

33:16

in all, quite happy. I'm

33:18

seven out of 10 for Wales at the moment. Where are you

33:20

with England?

33:21

And keep it short. I think England are an interesting one, because

33:23

they finished third in the World Cup, they finished strong

33:26

in the bronze final, which loads of

33:28

people watched on telly, amazing, even though it's the third, fourth

33:30

playoff. The overarching sense is that

33:32

they've delivered as much as we really

33:35

expected or hoped they might deliver in the

33:37

World Cup than they were. And that's

33:39

fingernail away from being in a World Cup final. And

33:41

then who knows when the rain comes down, you know?

33:43

So they did very, very well in terms

33:46

of this tournament. But I think the real question mark

33:49

is how do they go against France,

33:52

Ireland, Scotland, Wales? I'm just listing

33:54

Six Nations teams. How do they go in the Six

33:56

Nations when they don't have an attack which

33:58

is repeatedly threatening to face? and scoring tries,

34:01

they need to find tries now, that's where

34:03

it's at. And the bronze final

34:05

probably summed them up a little bit in that they dug in

34:07

and won against an Argentina team that really

34:09

fought and they got the job done, but Henry

34:12

Arendelle touched the ball minus 37 times

34:14

and was no threat at all. And as I said

34:16

in commentary, Tommy, there's

34:19

a responsibility on him to come and look for work. There's

34:21

also a responsibility on the team to create

34:24

space and actually give him the ball. But that

34:26

doesn't seem to be part of the plan. When he did get the ball, he

34:28

hoofed it one and you think, is this a team

34:30

that was just set up to do well in this World Cup? And

34:33

now they're going to start trying to layer on the attack. Felix

34:36

Jones, the coach, is coming from South Africa to help

34:38

with the attack. Double World Cup winner. That

34:40

should really, really help England. But England

34:43

need to find an attack and

34:45

we won't know if they have or not until we get to the Six

34:47

Nations,

34:48

but in isolation, did great. Like

34:51

Henry Arendelle, because I think he's a really good player.

34:53

You're right, he didn't get much of the ball. What's the point in having him

34:55

on the field? Yeah, player of that talent if

34:57

you're not going to give him the right ball in the right situation.

35:00

What I would say is just have a look at Mark

35:02

Talaia. Exactly. See his movement, see

35:04

his work rate, see what he does. When Sam Kane went

35:06

off,

35:07

he became that extra carrier and he just

35:09

works and works and works. And you

35:11

don't have to be 18

35:13

stone, 17 stone to be

35:15

able to pick and go. What you've got to be is good

35:17

on your feet and you attack players

35:19

differently. You know, he doesn't stop moving

35:21

Talaia. He's a bit like a smaller version

35:24

of Adi Sovea. Just a little bit. Just

35:26

wriggles, spins, footwork

35:28

and runs at arms rather than chest. And

35:32

he does an unbelievable job. You'd be quite happy

35:34

putting him in on the back row for New Zealand.

35:36

Is that good? He's the new Jack Knoll. Yeah, he

35:39

is. I think Ireland and France are

35:41

in a good place still, even though they got knocked

35:43

out. And they got knocked out against the two finalists.

35:46

Feel a little bit sorry for Ireland, the beats in Africa

35:48

in the pool stages. They win their group and

35:50

then they get New Zealand, don't they, as a reward.

35:52

So the way the pools were

35:55

structured, I did feel a little bit

35:57

sorry for them. But whether or not they would have beaten them

35:59

in the final. again I don't know it could have gone either way I think

36:01

the quarter-finals were super close France

36:04

similarly

36:05

I mean tough old draw for Ireland of course not not

36:07

just them you look at the route the box took to victory

36:09

geez that's got me the most savage route to a World

36:11

Cup victory ever so I really wanted Ireland

36:13

to flourish at this World Cup and they they

36:15

sort did that quarter-final could have gone

36:18

anyway fascinating to see how they bounced

36:20

back the next couple of years but yeah it was

36:22

it was kind of an Irish sporting

36:25

tragedy wasn't it but the game just

36:27

moves on right Scotland yeah I mean

36:29

Scotland ultimately fella

36:31

I live in Bath and it means that Finn Russell's back playing

36:34

for Bath and making offloads out the back so everyone around

36:36

here is happy so where I am everyone's

36:38

buzzing that Finn Russell's home early and played

36:40

a few games for Bath but what do we always say

36:43

about Scotland we say they play some really good stuff

36:45

they play some really good stuff but they can't quite get it done

36:47

against the big boys you know they just got to start

36:49

getting it done against the big boys yeah but how'd you do that it's

36:52

a tough one what do you make of them

36:54

horrendous pull to start with because you got

36:56

to the best in the world in that pool you

36:58

expect a big game you always get a big game from

37:00

Scotland and the Six Nations there's always

37:03

one I was expecting it in

37:05

the rugby World Cup didn't get

37:07

it but it's where they are at the moment

37:10

they're

37:10

not the level of Ireland they're not level of South

37:12

Africa that's just a fact they aren't at the moment

37:14

but I think if they keep going in in the

37:16

direction they are then some

37:19

stage we're gonna see improvement I think

37:21

we slowly seen improvement with Scotland year

37:23

after year but it's not big improvements but they're

37:25

going in the right direction as as you

37:28

mentioned we talked about all these sides at length

37:30

in previous pods so do have a listen

37:32

and just boost our numbers will you because

37:35

forget enough downloads ITV might have us back for

37:37

the Six Nations and if we don't well means

37:39

on toast okay for the next seven years

37:51

team of the tournament time David which

37:54

is definitely gonna see us get hammering

37:56

yeah

37:57

it's just because people have got their favorites and

37:59

you can never be

39:21

Peter

40:00

Steph du Toit. Now he's at six,

40:02

he wears seven but he often plays six, he

40:05

mostly plays six. I don't know whether that's like a little

40:07

sort of Francois Pina sort of tip

40:10

of the hat because he wore six and played seven, if

40:12

that makes sense. They kind of go a bit left and

40:14

right or they sometimes wear the numbers a different

40:16

way around in South Africa, it's something like that isn't it? A

40:19

little bit but mostly, mostly

40:21

du Toit plays six so he's my six. I don't think anyone's

40:23

arguing with him being in your team, Tommy. And he looks

40:25

like a six as well, doesn't he? I've

40:28

gone seven, Livani

40:30

Botia, another good tournament, great

40:32

player. Great shot. Jack Morgan's close

40:35

I think but Livani Botia gets

40:37

a nod for me and then number eight world

40:39

player of the year, Adi Sovea. Obviously,

40:42

easy shout out eight. Okay right,

40:44

scrum half Aaron Smith. Love it. Number 10,

40:47

Andre Pollard. Ultimate

40:50

winner, didn't play that much. Abstakes

40:52

were at the absolute highest, nailed

40:55

it, nailed it, nailed it. I think I'm right in saying

40:57

he comes into the World Cup late, doesn't miss a single

40:59

kick. That's right, 100% record. He's the boss mate.

41:01

Okay. He's the boss. Left

41:03

wing Mark Talaia. Tons of choice

41:06

on the wing, could have picked 300 guys. He

41:08

wins because he's relentless.

41:10

Got banned from a game from going out

41:12

a little bit late. What a reaction you

41:14

got from him. Incredible. I thought he was

41:17

mega.

41:18

Yes, Akis at 12. That's kind

41:20

of easy call, dare I say that. Yeah, he

41:22

was nominated for world player of the year and

41:24

he was brilliant through the tournament. Yeah,

41:26

and Niall Fillebo at 13. Just love him, love

41:28

him, love him. It also might be the most

41:30

handsome guy in the World Cup actually I've been wondering. And

41:33

again, on the right wing, there's 100 guys you can

41:35

choose, but who would I pick to start

41:37

in my team? I'd pick Chaslyn

41:39

Colby. No, would I? Love him. And at fallback,

41:42

Hugo Keenan, that's who I would pick. I mean,

41:44

there are lots of guys that you can stick Freddie Stewart

41:46

in there, take Boden Barrett in there. Ramos. Ramos,

41:49

you can stick Portuguese fallback, forgotten his

41:51

name. Sousa Gedge. Sousa Gedge. I've forgotten

41:53

how to say it is the truth. Sousa

41:56

Gedge. Yeah, well, when you get to my level

41:58

of broadcast, mate, you're picking. And

42:00

I chose a lot of Portugal games to commentate

42:03

on. So his engagement was fab,

42:05

every time he played, he loved watching him play. But

42:08

who would I actually pick in my team? Hugo Keenan.

42:11

So there you have it. We'll pop that on ITV Rugby for you to

42:13

rip into.

42:14

And that is our final act

42:16

of the 2023 French World Cup. It's

42:18

been a ruddy great tournament. Thanks to

42:20

Shanko and our co-hosts, we've had Nollie,

42:23

Lowell, Warbs, Barks, Drico and our

42:25

contributors from the ITV team and beyond,

42:28

Butchie and Co. Shanks and I will

42:30

be reconvening for our own pod Flats and

42:32

Shanks very shortly. So be sure to rate,

42:35

review and subscribe to that if you haven't already.

42:37

I can promise you, there'll be loads of chat about meat, probably

42:39

a bit more chat about barbecues and meat on that.

42:42

A little bit more chat about TV

42:44

box sets. By the way, I'm really struggling at the moment,

42:46

Tommy, but it's been a notre plesia

42:48

and au vois for now. Thank you, Tommy. Thank

42:59

you.