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0:27

ash presents okay

0:29

, now there's a shark here because essentially

0:32

in some sense sense entity

0:34

that's going to provide the solution

0:36

to this very complex problem has arrived

0:38

on the scene but it's quite it's

0:41

first of all it's been all improperly

0:44

right so that's an adolescent representation

0:47

so it braise a lot of nonsense

0:49

and it's been corrupted in a variety of ways

0:53

to to some degree what that means is that as

0:55

you mature and you're moving

0:57

away from your mere marionette status

1:00

your interest city like russo

1:03

all sorts of ways i mean you're participating the

1:06

happened representation

1:08

in the movie the matter is it

1:10

doesn't matter if you've been corrupted

1:13

to some degree as long as you have

1:15

an absolutely sacrificed

1:17

your compassion speech and vision

1:19

so you know that's a pretty hopeful message

1:22

because pinocchio was by no means a

1:24

perfect entity but he might be good

1:26

enough one of the the

1:29

arabs me

1:30

huntley about ideological

1:33

, of of

1:35

the of broadly speaking

1:37

world that their fundamental

1:40

dangerous that they always contain a too

1:42

convenient theory of too and malevolent

1:45

and for me any

1:47

theory that locate the fundamental problem

1:50

of evil somewhere the

1:54

it is dangerous now that

1:56

isn't to say that those

1:58

struck me corrupted

2:01

and aren't corrupt it's doesn't

2:03

exist and of itself it's it's

2:05

always the case that our social institutions

2:08

aren't what they should be and they're outdated

2:10

and their predicated to some degree on deceit

2:12

and use power

2:14

can manipulate them sometimes successfully

2:17

that problem never goes away

2:19

and never will but the

2:23

in the really morales

2:26

then you , every

2:29

moral right to allow your unexamined

2:31

motivations to manifest

2:34

themselves falling you can punish

2:36

the evil doers and always remain

2:38

on the moral side of the fence i got

2:40

a huge attractiveness in that i

2:43

think think this is i'm a you've explored a lot over the idea

2:45

from that associate since i do but that

2:47

is a good and evil cutting through the halls of every human

2:49

my have everything because Really

2:55

gets to the heart of of heart lot of what I call the

2:57

kind of infantile culture. I think this is a symptom

3:00

of of of childishness,

3:02

you know, whenever I was

3:04

learning about literature in and

3:06

Anna, what constituted? More sophisticated, Disney

3:09

films, childish films. Let's take Tolkien

3:12

Prince's. Good people. Look at

3:14

are bad people, look bad. The ugly

3:16

on their own feelings and complexity.

3:20

And if you have a complexity more quick noble

3:22

like a mervyn peake

3:24

the people on the thirty good or bad that

3:26

both they struggle within themselves and with other people

3:28

that is a mark of a kind of adult novel

3:30

as opposed to a it's a childish know from

3:32

my end up that's quite a point distinction and i think

3:35

most of the political and ideological battles

3:37

that i find myself in the middle of and i'm sure you do as well

3:40

i'll because people are just reducing everything

3:42

to this binary of good versus evil

3:45

and putting themselves on themselves side of good it

3:47

good it it a very in fantasy

3:49

almost an almost like a caricature

3:52

of religion you know it's it's a

3:54

it's on i see it again and again we had it in

3:56

this country with the bricks it vote effectively

3:59

what happened he and read and like cancer

4:01

toxic and and families fell apart

4:03

and either you wouldn't believe i know it wasn't reported

4:05

how much elsewhere but it's like a kind of ideological

4:08

civil war here but not the

4:10

one because it came down if

4:12

you

4:13

Evil racist to

4:15

pissed, and if you voted remain you, what

4:17

you would good and Progressive and and all

4:20

the the and Noble and virtuous, right?

4:22

And of course there are all sorts of reasons

4:24

to vote. Either way. I intend

4:26

this kind of caricature it

4:28

happens again with what you described you described

4:30

it as a picture of a

4:32

religion. And I think

4:34

that's what it is ology is and

4:36

this is one of reasons that

4:38

I've been inclined website

4:40

to go to

4:42

have my show. the rational

4:44

atheists the time of

4:47

and thinking mean i was convinced

4:50

as a consequence of reading young as

4:52

primarily but also the

4:54

north of nature primarily and

4:56

solzhenitsyn as

4:59

well that and

5:01

then biology as well as i studied

5:03

that more deeply there's

5:08

no escaping a religious framework

5:10

there's no way out of it and

5:13

he will you if you eliminate

5:15

it say as you consequence of

5:17

rush the isn't what

5:20

you reduces it's replacement

5:22

by forms , religion

5:24

that are much less sophisticated the mean

5:28

that when it's nothing but it's it's it's it's it's

5:30

a fun

5:31

it's a you know if i look back to my catholic

5:33

upbringing actually a new orleans you are

5:35

acknowledging your own capacity for seeing these at the

5:37

hearts of catholicism that's why we no

5:40

that's what you sit there and tell

5:42

the thing you've done wrong. the like to

5:44

get a check it out though well that and

5:46

that that's far from

5:49

trivial it's unbelievably

5:51

not and because it

5:53

was so common like a common part

5:55

of catholicism it can be passed over without

5:57

notice and so you

6:01

the the religion it

6:03

it i'm going to talk about christianity more

6:05

specifically because it's the dominant

6:08

form it's it's it's the form of

6:10

religious belief that primarily

6:12

undergrads are social structures

6:14

it's are operating system my

6:17

producer came up with the and i

6:19

thought it was out on and

6:21

it does localize the drama

6:23

between good and evil it

6:26

makes you responsible for and

6:30

and , you in

6:32

encourages you let's say you would tend to

6:34

the ways that you fall short of the ideal

6:36

and when you criticize

6:39

instruction like that on the criticize

6:41

the questions that gave rise to it

6:44

out of existence the questions

6:46

might be well what's ,

6:48

nature of the good what's the nature

6:50

of evil those are religious questions what's

6:52

the purpose of our life on

6:55

how do you orient yourself if you're trying to

6:59

let's say rather than down on

7:01

how should you conduct yourself etc

7:03

yourself etc questions don't go away

7:06

and they can't not be answered

7:08

and so the way that

7:11

the traditional religious structure there's

7:13

them is in a mysterious

7:15

ways the ritual it uses music

7:18

it uses art that uses literature users

7:20

stories all these things that are outside

7:23

the realm of easy criticism and

7:25

then some of that translated

7:27

sensible

7:29

explicit dogma that's the part that's

7:31

most susceptible to rational criticism

7:33

what kind of student organizations where

7:35

they part of the i can fix the

7:37

that

7:38

and the media and so were

7:41

like that sam was month

7:43

and other one was a black

7:47

san the other one ironically

7:49

was and the

7:52

room can if any the mac the current

7:54

and put a technique it's

7:57

new the can execute

7:59

recession rewrite

8:02

a commemorate of the groove

8:06

, i'm saying

8:08

that saying encourage center violence

8:10

sexual violence and through my

8:12

writing on the block

8:19

because you are pointing out that that such

8:21

activity is not heard in

8:23

person the central culture in canada

8:25

but an aberration elixir

8:28

have something i don't know an

8:30

honor killing and

8:32

there are no by random you know about ah

8:35

young , or to do with on and

8:37

i was a candle you know member member

8:40

of you know her memory and i wrote

8:42

something or phone and other

8:44

than so that's because i didn't

8:48

explain

8:49

the your glorifying sexual violence

8:51

by doing that exactly i

8:53

have no idea i wish i could answer

8:56

blessed i am

8:58

okay so that that particular i'm

9:01

ah boo boo accusation

9:04

not only how

9:07

about about reception the use of

9:09

deception and the lies

9:11

that are just about true but

9:13

they just sort of they're not going you

9:16

sneak them by because they're

9:18

close enough to the truth maybe to pass but

9:20

then there are our allies that are the antithesis

9:23

of the true antithesis of the truth right

9:25

there the truth it

9:27

seems to me that the the nation's that

9:29

your glorifying sexual violence in

9:32

the antithesis category

9:35

, untruth not only is is a lie

9:37

it's the opposite of the truth yes

9:40

that's when about the blog i can understand

9:43

i can understand because

9:46

they've applied get an emotional about it

9:48

emotional about the i bet i can understand

9:50

them to talk about a

9:52

a situation any said that that has never

9:55

happened to the best as a different

9:57

story and that how do you separate

10:00

those i think

10:02

it called the complaint

10:06

the situation of the blog and

10:08

and and i but i don't oh for sure

10:10

because i remember

10:13

it might not

10:15

just shoot it came up when

10:17

he threw them in order for

10:20

outset of i

10:22

call it has kids mobbing because

10:24

it was like see fading phat

10:27

though i am et

10:32

how can i think for all those

10:35

that like having by king

10:37

dogs coming at you all at once and we're

10:39

so how bout we call this

10:43

yes absolutely look i've

10:45

watched lots of people respond to twitter

10:47

mobs over the last four years and

10:49

my experience has been there by

10:52

twenty people on twitter especially when an administrative

10:54

organization then climbs it's

10:57

the seriously damage someone

11:00

as and most people climb back and apologize

11:03

as fast as they possibly can and it's

11:05

no wonder because it's very

11:07

unnerving and destabilizing the

11:11

review your someone who who

11:14

is obviously deeply opposed to such

11:16

things as sexual exploitation

11:18

clearly an

11:21

assault and var and the use

11:23

of arbitrary barrel and since nonetheless

11:26

you're , by precisely that kind of

11:28

behavior and then it's

11:31

encouraged in every possible way as

11:33

far as i can tell by the administration

11:35

who immediately fold in the most cowardly

11:37

of possible ways and

11:40

so i just this i just it's outrageous

11:42

and i can't understand why there

11:44

isn't more noise about it i can spend

11:46

your the wrong target clearly

11:49

thank you i can stick

11:50

the motivation or but i can think

11:53

of not standing up for me

11:55

what i see i thought the whole canada so

11:57

that for me like the the people like things

12:00

anything that i love with

12:02

comments on the of both and me to

12:04

be people donating people like that like

12:06

like i am overwhelmed

12:09

by self esteem human family of road

12:11

rage and i'm still into the thinking thinking

12:13

of i wanna thank them if the and it's an input i

12:15

didn't have the same to compete on my

12:17

personalized think you're not so you do

12:20

so at some ten thousand people support

12:22

you and twenty people complain and yet

12:24

the university

12:25

then you saw like what the hell's

12:27

up with not exist really i

12:29

mean the or how come there's no proportionality

12:32

every sports if the if

12:33

the overwhelming body of

12:35

the population is supportive of what

12:37

you have who you are let's say and what you've

12:40

done which is nothing

12:42

that that deserves the kind of treatment

12:44

that you've been through why isn't the university

12:46

a sensitive to the public opinion supporting

12:49

us they are sensitive to the hypothetical

12:51

public opinion damning you

12:54

this issue of cancelling is so

12:56

important to me in a democracy

12:59

all of this legislation that that

13:01

focuses on hate speech and

13:03

and limiting what can be said on the internet into

13:05

it so ironic the benefit is that

13:07

as you might know john stuart mill who is you

13:10

know where the fathers of utilitarianism and very

13:12

often invoked in this current

13:15

sort of collective this setting but

13:17

that with the mandates rates aren't

13:19

he he says else with an advocate

13:21

for the kirby said that

13:23

the problem with sloshing free speech if

13:26

not just that you might learn

13:28

something new now but

13:30

you have the upper the leaf

13:32

and little and you

13:34

think about new reasons why you might

13:36

believe or don't believe that the eve

13:38

and ah on the metric that

13:41

a collectivist arguably are heaps of a

13:43

consequentialist utilitarian like john stuart

13:45

mill is

13:47

i'm a cancelling

13:49

censorship is not good

13:52

for humans let alone democracies

13:54

the her

13:56

another fundamental pillar he hoped

13:58

for the only the only real

14:01

the for opposing free

14:03

speech apart from ignorance which is the

14:06

free speech isn't just another right and you don't

14:08

know well from look

14:13

you've already figured it all out you

14:16

don't have to think what you're trying that

14:18

day well that that's the other possibility but

14:20

it's the to do with those two things go hand

14:22

in hand very frequently is that it's

14:25

very often that people who are

14:27

trying to hide something justify

14:30

that to themselves with commentary

14:33

uncertainty about their beliefs the

14:36

down on the the and

14:39

so the have to believe

14:42

that people like robots to be allowed to it

14:45

doesn't with whoever they want and wing it and

14:47

you think thank you already know

14:50

your life is perfect and you're already god

14:54

and then more power julio

14:56

right and you can shut down free discourse because

14:59

the heights of already been scale

15:02

i haven't met anyone like that yeah

15:04

most , i see

15:07

no jewish thought that there's

15:10

some things they still have to learn and subways

15:13

and how are we going to approach that

15:15

specially you want to find out how

15:18

, wrong wrong should

15:20

talk to people don't agree with agree know

15:22

maybe ninety percent of what they of is

15:25

not worth attending to not easily

15:27

be probably the same goes

15:29

for you but ten

15:31

percent might be just what saves

15:33

you in the next crisis see

15:36

that's also an indication their of why people

15:38

are often to

15:42

former representation

15:44

so to speak form a relationship with the archetype

15:47

of the great father because to something the

15:49

archetype perfection and

15:51

the individual in relationship to that archetype

15:54

is always pathologically flawed and

15:56

so the embarrassment of that realization

15:58

which is exactly what's happening you're right now there's

16:01

often enough to stop people from doing it

16:03

so what what that to say

16:05

what that means in some sense is that in order

16:07

for you to mature and

16:10

it's possible matter you have to

16:13

understand the route the manner in which

16:15

you're deeply flawed in relationships the

16:19

your protest historically

16:21

determined and that's a very bitter no

16:24

it's much easier and people do this all the time to

16:26

engage in half witted formulaic

16:30

on ideological criticisms of the

16:32

system as a whole it's okay the

16:35

probability that the system is more flawed

16:37

the you is pretty damn low

16:39

well you might want to start with you know getting

16:41

rid of your donkey years in your tail and stopped

16:43

bringing nonsense before you judge the

16:46

entire you , know

16:49

process by which human beings have

16:51

come into come so

16:54

anyways that's kinda what that means if

16:56

this can happen to you like the lesson

16:58

here there's only two lessons here either you're

17:00

a bad person you got exactly what you deserved

17:03

or this can happen to anyone

17:06

and so look the hell out i can

17:08

certainly agree and i i sense

17:10

of pendant for can keep pendant eye center for

17:13

people and real-life but also

17:15

on the blog i have right when something

17:17

isn't like for example from

17:20

them for figure for care for situation

17:22

the in montreal

17:25

wet whenever you add soya like that in

17:28

cancelled or change or something maybe

17:30

the after that side against montreal like

17:33

a sense of i said bravo

17:35

to the for the

17:38

they they

17:40

are for and and earned even the prime minister

17:42

of quebec i may have

17:44

a poor thing bubbles and thing

17:47

that i feel sublet when you know thing that

17:49

academic freedom

17:53

who must be for that like the senior academy

17:55

and is protected

17:59

so that a real

18:01

commitment to it if should see what

18:03

i mean you have to be academic the

18:08

bulk of the abstract intellectual work

18:10

intellectual our

18:11

goes on at university so that's where the cutting

18:13

edge is it's not the place the

18:17

is but it's one of the main places it's certainly

18:19

the main place where training

18:21

, that is still instituted

18:24

apprenticeship without is still institute institute

18:26

so if that comes under assault if that's

18:28

if than what

18:30

to protect the same thing in

18:32

the rest of the culture if if if

18:35

it goes where it's paramount if it if

18:37

it's threatened where it's paramount it's going to be threatened

18:39

everywhere and that's why people should

18:41

pay attention in in to you and

18:44

, and should

18:46

put as much pressure as they possibly can

18:49

on the administration mode ellison to reverse

18:51

they're insane decisions and insane half instead

18:54

of kowtowing to a tiny minority

18:57

of students who don't even represent the

18:59

communities they purport to represent

19:01

you know my guess is as if we took those

19:04

and it's easy enough to find out but

19:06

no one will do it if we surveyed

19:09

these student organizations

19:11

presented them with your story and surveyed them

19:13

i suspect that the vast majority

19:15

of students within those organizes organizations

19:18

them would be

19:20

appalled the been done to you know

19:23

there's a handful of students who say

19:25

they represent portion

19:27

of students but who actually don't who

19:30

complained bitterly in the background and use

19:32

deception tube the

19:34

rate of forced to bear on someone like you

19:36

and somehow that's okay and despite

19:38

the fact that thousands of people

19:40

as their support for you the

19:42

university won't change for

19:45

what to to indicate their commitment

19:47

to what to this insane

19:49

arm idiot he that purports

19:52

to be anti racist you can see how fair

19:54

it is in your case oh

19:56

where where where matching an actual

19:59

enjoy the bunch of hypothetical

20:01

injustices yes and my

20:04

take on it was at the beginning that okay

20:06

they saw as whatever path of that

20:08

it's i

20:10

now i'm i'm like

20:15

the target because of all of a of

20:17

it's as if you see what i mean like a few a target

20:19

noticed a target you've also been hit

20:23

it certainly

20:25

helps exactly like my caddie like

20:27

when you are a researcher when

20:30

you are you are member of

20:32

the three years the your services across the province

20:34

and the country

20:36

your reputation even if you want to go

20:38

find another job somewhere

20:40

else your reputation of all what your have

20:43

right for your your reputation is done

20:45

yeah look i the other thing is

20:47

the committee's i said on hiring committee so here's another

20:49

rule about hiring committees

20:52

this episode episode by cheetos they

20:55

had to lay yeah they have to wear yemen's

20:57

leave your mind and that's exactly what latina

20:59

as are doing all across the country the

21:01

rewriting the rules and pushing the boundaries

21:03

in their communities to leave their own unique

21:05

mark for you they're just they're

21:07

super bowl that to make an impact weather

21:10

it's true art music fashion

21:12

food or something else and cheetos

21:15

with celebrate what they're doing by shining a light

21:17

on their transformative power the

21:19

desert the way a program celebrates those

21:21

leaving their mark and latino to me

21:23

checking

21:27

bearing on spotify batman ,

21:29

buried is presented by cheetos they had

21:31

to wear yeah yeah batman and buried

21:33

on spotify to learn more and

21:36

so

21:41

and there's a preponderance of qualified candidates

21:45

candidates who show any sign whatsoever

21:47

of scandal are immediately removed

21:49

from the pack the

21:52

using the diary committees won't this

21:56

so as soon as you've been brushed with scandal

21:58

with scandal then here's another question for tonight

22:01

the think is through and i'm still not exactly sure

22:03

what to make amends i could go back to the university

22:05

of toronto what about my graduate

22:07

student what bloody chance to they marketing

22:10

know it doesn't matter about their publication

22:13

rate so let let's say they come up with a stellar

22:15

publication but they're associated with me

22:18

soccer they gonna find a job while the

22:20

answer to that is perhaps not

22:22

and so what am i supposed to do without as a moral

22:25

person the my supposed to not go back to the university

22:27

because merely being associated

22:29

with meat is enough to increase

22:31

the probability that my qualified students

22:33

won't be acceptable to any hiring committees

22:36

these shots or on billy active even

22:38

if image them and it's not obvious

22:40

that you can manage them mean , still

22:43

going through this you have months to go without

22:46

gainful employment you know

22:48

and the the doubts

22:50

creep in when you are accused of this

22:52

sorta thing because anybody

22:55

with because sense pays attention to the that's

22:58

right if you're psychopathic to the core you don't

23:00

care what other people think reasonable

23:03

listen you're modifying behavior

23:05

all the time as a consequence of the effect you

23:07

have on others

23:09

so it was a well i'm reprehensible enough so

23:11

an institution that i admired

23:14

we and me , of i

23:16

know and the for canada right let's

23:19

say something he alone people believe

23:21

what they read and i do not appeal

23:23

quest some rough life philip defenses other

23:26

scientists he was approached some even then

23:29

with call my for fate worse when

23:31

isn't it that said it

23:33

so much much much my foot that

23:37

it

23:41

such a way that is as and

23:44

we're well you know what they say whether smokers

23:47

and vacuum or

23:50

thing even

23:51

and i took the men the rid of

23:54

can i say the punishment or less discipline

24:02

the reality is proportionate disproportionate

24:05

had and severe

24:07

his then

24:13

so what do you do know what are you

24:15

doing a mean how ,

24:17

you been on what

24:19

structure in your life in the aftermath of this

24:22

i've never imagined that we can be working

24:24

as high said that that without

24:26

having the enter

24:28

without saying like i'm a i'm

24:31

very taking earthwatch

24:34

i'm remain thank you keep our strategizing

24:37

going things i'm working

24:40

face of the for

24:42

like all my time i'm not putting it

24:44

on my research on that

24:46

the earth of putting it on that

24:48

suits or course the defense silva here

24:50

, on foot i'm

24:53

i'm living day by i'm i

24:57

am fine and percent said i'm

25:00

know i know

25:02

why no my band

25:06

the man you have freedom

25:08

feet the free expression for me

25:10

academic freedom class

25:13

that electrolytes math

25:15

i know for sure one of my friends

25:17

one said the to suffer matter and that

25:20

lot of them are now at the mouth of five

25:22

lucky to have been amazing soon mother

25:25

flab has more and that cannot

25:27

be naming but everyone knows had more

25:30

they can really , and like i

25:32

felt like know those articles salon

25:34

need from the heavens and so the

25:36

merits of had success and

25:40

and should see when i mean yeah

25:42

we're will mean yeah fortunate enough to have some

25:44

of canada's preemie

25:47

you know take a second look when i was doing

25:49

and actually think it through and it'll come out

25:51

in support of me thank god for that says

25:54

and and to that was definitely

25:56

a lifesaver harm it

25:58

repeatedly overtime so

26:01

so thank you know that absolutely

26:03

it's thank god there are people who still the

26:06

actual story is take the

26:09

actions of your far right

26:11

everyone is that you know any prospective

26:13

employer can google docs and it comes up gonna

26:16

take the risk you know the accusation is

26:18

sufficient to damn you and

26:20

and us

26:23

that you put a finger on the on the absolute

26:25

catastrophe of the non crime

26:28

hate like yeah well

26:30

it's it's a permanent state especially

26:32

in a in a technological

26:35

universe where nothing is ever no

26:38

matter how long the lag and

26:40

it's worse because the government his there was no

26:43

compunction to address this or this or

26:45

note aberration mean to has well

26:47

i said they are moot

26:50

because the strategy is that if you oppose

26:52

hate speech laws your office the a hateful person

26:54

why else would you oppose hp show you know the whole thing

26:56

and and any politician doesn't want to stand up

26:58

in parliament

26:59

he would seem to be siding with the the evil guys

27:01

tobacco you have to make a very good

27:04

that argument to stand up against hate speech

27:06

laws because you're faced with the problem that

27:08

there is such a thing is hate speech yeah

27:11

i mean honestly so whenever it pernicious

27:13

and terrible it's like okay the

27:16

arguing uphill to this is again

27:18

why it's such a the

27:20

recall that we ever had free speech to begin

27:22

with it's almost inconceivable

27:24

to me that we managed to generate

27:27

the baseline presumption of innocence

27:30

that's a miracle the the

27:32

fact that you could go bankrupt and start

27:34

again that's start miracle the

27:36

idea that you ever had free speech

27:38

and the thought that was genuinely the case

27:40

that's case miracle and none of this

27:42

of is the appropriate

27:45

respect and or that it deserves

27:47

because it's so unlikely it's

27:49

is usually unlike commit i know in the book i

27:52

talk of ever get kind of very very short

27:54

history of free speech from the integrates

27:56

to die and it's and adult the point

27:58

of that is trick to accentuate

28:00

this point that actually the fact that we have it is

28:02

astonishing and unlikely so unlikely

28:05

and and all the more reason why we need to

28:07

defend that when vigilant

28:09

about any cracks the pier

28:11

in this in this because a

28:13

will go away very away very we

28:16

don't defend it and it's hard a particular

28:18

when it comes to the idea of chapter

28:20

on hate speech because and and and

28:23

took the up of the other side

28:25

the because just trashing

28:28

the opposing argument isn't gonna help we have to talk

28:30

about it and explain what you know

28:32

why it's important nevertheless well for one thing

28:34

like you said hateful speech exists

28:37

that , not points let's acknowledge that

28:39

that hateful speech exists and

28:41

it can be harmful and it can do damage but

28:43

then but is a state

28:46

that might in the future be completely unscrupulous

28:48

or that is going to decide for you what what

28:50

you can say and thirds of the things that we have to tackle and

28:53

know but and the other key things

28:55

is that no one knows how to define hate speech note

28:57

unesco the european court of human

28:59

rights think they they all agreed there's

29:01

no way to define hate speech every european

29:04

countries that has hate speech laws has

29:06

different heights v shows different deafened

29:08

subjective abstract concepts

29:10

such as hate such as offense such

29:13

as a perception you know and

29:15

these are on the statute books and you don't want this stuff

29:17

on the statute books because it all very well i mean i know the

29:19

we talked about the snp and and crime bill

29:22

to defense i'm always running into people

29:24

are saying yes okay technically

29:26

someone can and imprisoned for saying

29:29

some an offensive joke technically

29:31

yes but no one in their right mind

29:33

no jury know judge

29:36

is going to the we've got common hey

29:39

put that so myopic i mean what because

29:41

you don't know who's gonna be in charge you

29:44

know who that judges

29:45

you how can you you can be certain

29:48

that some

29:49

it doesn't , of you and

29:51

that you don't approve of that will in guy

29:53

that will in in

29:56

happened you the

29:58

vague wording

30:00

book is

30:02

coming speak at some point

30:05

if it's not today they succeed know why

30:07

the the future the

30:11

of the and i get it , as

30:13

you say to certainty so so

30:15

, yeah i think it's i think

30:17

is actually one of the most important arguments

30:20

of he should make arguments of

30:22

that and that we need to do you know free speech needs

30:24

to be defended and everything ration it's not

30:26

something that you know that he

30:28

you get it and then is there forever know that's not true

30:31

or there's something about human nature as something

30:33

about people in power way

30:35

that we are her that

30:38

out will , will collapse

30:40

it's it's an edifice that is not secure and

30:42

at any given time and but

30:44

it's hard it's of

30:47

being smeared the risk is you're going to be smeared

30:49

you can't be associated with the worst possible kinds

30:51

of people because of course it's only really

30:53

controversial speech that ever acquires protection

30:55

and a while

30:58

then what what what these awful people

31:01

it's it hard to make the case but

31:03

it's okay for nonetheless has to be made and particularly

31:05

by politicians have been incredibly disappointed

31:08

hurt by the way in which politicians

31:10

in this country have not made any

31:12

kind of effort to effort to if anything

31:15

is from what i can see as the removes even

31:17

in the parliament's pushed her father

31:19

had to be shows we should be repeating the not pushing for

31:21

them but the no one wants to the argument know

31:23

wants to be tainted yeah well they

31:25

get identified one you can

31:28

what happens when you get put on

31:30

the list this list it that it that that that that

31:32

identify areas what we're going to call them

31:35

the not the problem is a very clever that evading even

31:37

a a label but

31:39

they like making their lists they like observing

31:42

and saying in a huge you you you are you are problematic

31:45

ah in and

31:47

, are now they have a an electronic

31:50

trail they they that that these are

31:52

the people that absolutely love going through all of your own

31:54

tweets and messages and anything

31:56

they can find can as unopposed

31:58

appointed by the if you can do that twenty there is no

32:01

if you if you had complete unfettered access

32:03

to written on line or it's the emails

32:05

text messages that you couldn't construct a case

32:08

to damn someone a lot actually ones

32:10

who thinks it's more or less saved me is

32:13

right well by the time the

32:15

time my political statement which was a philosophical

32:19

spiritual not a political statement

32:21

my already

32:22

one hundred hours of lectures on line and

32:25

so essentially everything i'd ever

32:27

said to students was recorded and

32:30

there wasn't that it wasn't potty the

32:32

smoking pistol so very

32:35

small no servant but this is why

32:37

it's also

32:37

the i appointed unending a astonishing

32:40

the white you are mischaracterized because because

32:42

it's all their have that

32:45

very very very clear and explicit

32:48

about your point of view and so when

32:50

they tried demonize you intending to the think people

32:52

can check and i'll realize that your the i think what

32:54

they're doing they're relying on

32:57

the reputation of

32:58

the kind of barrier to be believe in investigating

33:00

who you really are yeah well as opposed to some degree

33:03

that that works but it it doesn't really

33:05

work because one generally

33:08

happens is that you know for

33:10

who wouldn't open a lecture be

33:13

my reputation there's three or four

33:16

who do they're curious and

33:19

the haven't even more perverse effect on

33:22

in some cases on the true believers be

33:25

there are primed to find anything

33:27

i said offensive but that

33:31

or maybe the and find it then

33:33

that's not good well

33:36

interesting when you meet that the when

33:39

you get into conversation

33:40

and you can see that you're not what

33:42

they thought you were and they don't know quite

33:46

her and that don't another

33:49

reason why we need more speech not the

33:52

the nation so that people can be disabused of the

33:54

the fantasies that they've been wallowing in

33:56

and have died you very much enjoy that when that

34:00

people expect one thing and then they actually

34:02

actually speak to me and me and

34:04

they they don't see that that this there's no

34:06

evidence of it because it doesn't exist yeah well

34:09

it public

34:11

domain to i mentioned those two interviews

34:13

that channel four interview that

34:18

they'll lose at gq and those

34:22

those interviews basic and

34:25

first have nothing but the

34:29

attempt by the to have

34:32

a conversation with the person that exists

34:34

in their imagination frightened

34:37

no relationship to me it the

34:39

rarely the case with with newman

34:42

and yeah i'm less so with

34:45

helen lewis but was still there

34:47

issue quite reassuring though isn't

34:49

it the it that

34:51

people can see through it you know

34:53

the reassuring is and mutton what's

34:55

what saved me and this is given me

34:58

an endless why of hope i

35:01

would say is that all

35:03

i've ever had the it's

35:05

just here's the situation

35:08

where is and and

35:11

every , so far so

35:14

far you know

35:16

i haven't lately damaged

35:19

yeah i'm one

35:21

of the things one of the

35:23

learn most i think since since a titania

35:25

kicked off and and , became a

35:27

known thing is i've learnt simply

35:29

not to trust trust

35:32

perception of someone as someone has

35:34

constructed in the media or online

35:37

or you know i said it's

35:39

not a net and i've i've the

35:41

him i'm coming from the background i did most

35:44

of my friends always on the left i didn't really know

35:46

a conservative people and now i have

35:48

a lot of friends were conservatives you know

35:50

and that just nashville

35:53

and that they were made out to be an even some famous

35:55

conservatives who people to set that up they're

35:58

evil they want to eat babies basically they quickly you

36:00

know and and you get to know them and you realize

36:02

oh my goodness this said that the perception

36:05

is from the how far removed

36:07

from the reality they once

36:09

had a dog with into it myself because everyone

36:11

seventy that i

36:14

certainly had that experience read

36:16

repeatedly i , trusted know

36:18

why i like whenever i hear hear

36:20

way people to let people online ice i i never

36:22

trusted unless i know someone personally i'm

36:24

never gonna trust that again and again

36:27

there's an important lesson for me i did

36:29

there was a report on love to some the by to

36:31

be tough switches right leaning think tank

36:33

move back very very good recall on the state

36:35

of academic freedom and you can i think they

36:37

never let eighty three out of a hundred

36:40

and forty you know uk university for

36:42

can't have some kind of anonymous ah

36:44

i'm reporting system so it's it's

36:46

it's very very widespread i'm

36:49

and yeah and it just it's it is

36:51

a huge su at very very can and

36:54

i think books that are said to me a lot of it is

36:56

may well be well intentioned

36:59

but i think the point is that it that it

37:01

off processes and procedures disciplinary

37:04

procedures were you know the end

37:06

result may not be anything at all it may just

37:08

be a few weeks of

37:10

i'm a you know see the chair

37:12

of your faculty you will go to see some committee or

37:14

you will have to pay trips to a job

37:16

but as a colleague of all you

37:19

know it's a process is the punishment

37:23

that's awful would not happens to someone it's

37:25

so awful it just

37:27

chronically ill you that fall

37:31

the shadow on them right

37:33

, right i have a chilling effect

37:35

is what would you see happened to one person who to bomb

37:38

will university he didn't he just watches

37:40

of didn't say things like that again

37:43

result you know we publish

37:45

will you say meetings wouldn't say he

37:47

just become more more careful and another

37:50

thing i think is the is that of he talks a little

37:52

spot of the fight well which is the one way to turn

37:54

us people is not to not to

37:56

control the big things that could form a little things

37:58

seven thirty of the a

38:01

habit every time you say something little

38:03

you know some school directions the constantly

38:05

to put a show the word was worried whether to say

38:07

this not fast talking to the most

38:09

efficient way to tell people the sheet the

38:13

sort of in some sense the ultimate reach of

38:15

totalitarianism because your life

38:17

is made out of small things you know

38:19

big things are rare and and sell them

38:22

and so having to watch that why

38:24

to say to watch your sense of humor for example

38:27

you know and fair enough you can few can cross the line

38:29

and line and person reads the crowd

38:31

properly and but you see great

38:33

comedians man they're right on that it's right

38:35

there right at the point where they shouldn't

38:38

be saying what they're saying want some of them

38:40

farm pounds outline on purpose you

38:42

know but everyone knows but but

38:45

to chill that is to take almost

38:47

all the fun the dynamic fun out of

38:49

social interactions that that's

38:52

a free spirit and that makes all

38:54

that partly what makes life worth

38:56

living it's these things are

38:58

happening well

39:00

that the universities are doing it tough

39:03

how shameful i will tell

39:05

you another institution in

39:09

an adjunct jordan was sort of getting

39:12

to it and it's sort of gets back to the

39:15

where the cello player for the new

39:17

york feel

39:19

how do you say that

39:22

the is definitively

39:24

better than the other for

39:26

it it is subjective

39:28

and are ,

39:31

and and are subject to

39:33

start by you the

39:36

the answers is sort of make

39:38

a bad

39:39

and you'll get in you'll get on there interfere

39:43

in you'll get into the the sundance film

39:45

festival so i've

39:47

had five films all turned down

39:49

from the from , sundance

39:51

film festival now

39:54

joe working king

39:57

what happened how do you know i mean that canoe

40:00

i'm thinking why don't you organize your own damn

40:02

conservative royal masturbated might as well

40:04

and at but at that that the

40:08

the the academic india was thinking

40:10

how do we define that and that

40:12

his we spoke about

40:14

guy hits forty home runs and a season

40:16

that define a ball and

40:19

our when the guy drains fourteen

40:21

three pointers and pointers and game that's

40:23

pretty definable but how do we do it

40:25

with documentaries and there's and was

40:27

you could you could make the case with your film

40:30

that are mean it the success

40:32

i hope i've got reasonable

40:34

success at the box office

40:37

enough success at the box office so it should have been

40:39

economically interesting for a place

40:41

like netflix or walmart a

40:43

grades the other

40:45

them that sort of been corrupted

40:48

is you used to be able to go

40:50

on to the website rotten tomatoes

40:53

and literally check the or

40:56

of , film and not

40:58

an exact science your

41:00

film gets a score and my film gets a score

41:03

and hurt the store and it's pretty

41:05

good get

41:07

no safe spaces are the

41:09

critics have it under

41:12

fifty percent somewhere forty

41:14

six percent and the audience

41:16

has

41:17

nine percent and i would argue

41:20

wait we now must remove

41:22

the critics the equation

41:24

because the the critics and

41:27

so woke that there's

41:29

nothing your dennis prager could

41:31

make gone with the way

41:33

oh and it would get under fifty

41:35

percent on rotten tomatoes so they've

41:38

screwed up their own they've corrupted

41:41

their own system or sort of polluted their

41:43

own you must now

41:46

with the audience and because there's two scores

41:48

there's the critics scotland me and then there's

41:50

what the people thought and we now

41:52

have to throw out the critics in by the way

41:55

it's , two way street one

41:58

of the you know films

42:00

that would be an oscar nominated film

42:02

that started it started a young

42:04

gay black man who was struggling with

42:06

the sex was that ob ninety

42:08

and but the critics and sixty

42:10

five with the people you know that's a testable

42:13

hypothesis you could rank order films

42:15

by discrepancy between critics and audience

42:17

and then rate them according to the ah

42:20

affiliation and you'd have the answer right there

42:23

you can drive in or good statistician to do

42:25

that in a day be very interesting thing

42:27

to do to me why would he wrote vision

42:29

to do with this get our

42:31

just an island the great boy

42:33

george nice very simple answer is no

42:36

it's it's not only

42:38

the theme of the film as it

42:41

does it have dennis prager

42:43

his name take a look

42:45

at the arc of clint eastwood

42:47

directed films and watch how they

42:49

shrank in the eyes of the critics

42:52

over the years since he spoke

42:54

to the famously

42:56

, to the bar the empty bar stool

42:58

at the at the convention

43:01

at the those film about the that that featured

43:03

the car and an asian family next

43:06

door with

43:07

the me nuts gordon ramsay racism

43:09

ia gran torino even buy some of

43:11

the actors that were in it too i thought were extremely

43:13

ungrateful left my personal opinions

43:15

i thought that was a remarkably

43:18

the on racist film mean

43:21

that guy eastwood was played

43:23

a character who was you know a standard conservative

43:25

as the archie bunker type essentially but

43:27

as he got neighbors he

43:30

plays his

43:33

the family who he saw as becoming morally

43:35

corrupt how in the world tell

43:38

me you absolutely be

43:40

by jordan i think you're not factoring

43:42

in your there's

43:45

two factors there's is what

43:47

there the film and then

43:49

who directed the film the

43:52

us you know a bad film

43:54

was directed by mark ruffalo there

43:56

would be the issues he's

43:58

a progressive after dennis

44:00

you don't know any act as if you

44:02

pick the actor

44:04

that's on your george clooney if george

44:06

clooney directed gran

44:09

torino it be fifteen points higher

44:11

percentage points higher with the critics

44:14

that's that's my answer

44:16

and i might have been to do it has seen as to call analysis

44:18

maybe somebody listening could whip that up because

44:20

a good graduate student in psychology could do that

44:22

very quick with a b or have my one of

44:24

my people do that that would be fun since when

44:27

things are loved about been a clinician history

44:29

i talked a lot of people who are really different

44:31

than me like seriously different from

44:33

me and if i wasn't

44:36

learning something from them when

44:38

i was in discourse with the

44:40

it was because i wasn't conducting

44:42

the discourse proper

44:46

they are be a valuable things even

44:48

if you don't learn

44:50

even if you don't learn more reasons for

44:52

why your position less right at

44:54

the very least you have benefited

44:56

from a very rigorous mental exercise

45:00

yeah well that helps you as you said already you you

45:02

want to differentiate a necessity year

45:04

old beliefs while why

45:07

because your beliefs a

45:10

set of facts at your disposal

45:12

your beliefs are tools that

45:14

you used to navigate the world

45:17

them more finely tuned those

45:20

tools more different like i

45:22

have have at home was shot

45:24

with all sorts of power tools and and one

45:26

of the things i learned to live renovated houses

45:29

number of times one of the things

45:31

i've learned is that if the job

45:33

is difficult you don't have

45:35

the right to and then you can

45:37

go down to home depot which has the

45:40

thousand square feet of tools which

45:43

is just phenomenal new can find

45:45

some little gadget that somebody spend half

45:47

their lifetime devising that makes

45:49

about job easy that that's

45:52

ideas ideas are tools they're not

45:54

they're not sachs then you have to surf

45:56

in them and take care of them and the

45:58

radiator

46:00

that and way in the right way may make

46:02

the minimum oh ben

46:03

metaphor beautiful you know it seems like

46:05

so talking about those that both the truckers situation

46:08

and then the joe rogan situation it seems in

46:10

many respects like intellectuals

46:13

or elites have gotten us into this mess

46:15

and it's the joke that the truckers in the joe

46:18

rogan of the world that are getting us out

46:20

of it arguably the

46:22

what does this say about education

46:25

and academia civil discourse

46:27

and democracy moving forward

46:30

well it says that the highest and lowest

46:32

always have to be united what

46:35

that means is somebody's idea that is like is

46:37

that while i learned that in part from watching

46:39

partners die meistersinger opera

46:41

because he the libretto elaborates

46:44

on that theme it an absolutely stellar

46:46

manner it because

46:49

in his opera

46:52

the opera details about the

46:54

actions of guilds of man and

46:57

so each killed is made out of domain

46:59

expert so one of the heroes is a cobbler

47:01

whose expert shoemaker well

47:03

who cares you make shoes like well you

47:06

have good shoes so that isn't a concern

47:09

of yours but if you didn't you think

47:11

it was very important and if

47:13

you're a good enough cobbler you get the same

47:16

and if you're a good and of singer you get to elect

47:18

a master sing the lovely

47:21

structured frequency metaphors

47:23

so one of the things wagner did so well

47:26

in that opera was to point out that true

47:28

expertise means the

47:30

differentiate of abstract knowledge

47:33

all the way down to the point of behavioral implementation

47:36

then it is one thing i really like about

47:39

the trained as a behavioral psychologist

47:41

i'm very interested in psychoanalytic theory but

47:43

it's very abstract existential psychologists

47:46

very abstract meaning of lifestyle like

47:49

yeah but where does the rubber hits the road

47:51

well the truckers know that fisher

47:54

price they really know that because they're down

47:56

there move and good to people they're doing the

47:58

actual work in the most in green

48:00

manner know they might have a problem

48:02

with high order articulation

48:05

up to their leaders i not was a pet

48:07

that by time not so sure either success

48:09

specific i

48:12

don't have a

48:13

oh and every canadian to get themselves

48:15

there and talked to some of these chocolate like they'd be

48:18

prior to be don't have a truck they don't have

48:20

trouble with enunciating blunt truths

48:23

but you know you

48:25

were pointed problems among the intellectuals

48:27

while the intellectual chattering classes

48:29

criticizing the truckers there's a divorce

48:31

between the intellectualized framework

48:34

ethical framework and that practical

48:36

reality that the working class people represents

48:39

and

48:40

i mean your your observation that the

48:42

truckers of the joe rogan sir are

48:44

serving as redemptive agents is a

48:46

reflection of the idea of

48:49

brilliance of individual

48:51

sovereignty the notion of individual sovereignty

48:53

as the basis for political stability

48:56

like or who should you consult on

48:58

not just to be but with ideas the

49:00

people who drives trucks what why because

49:03

they're navigating the roads they're delivering

49:05

the nights in a real sense healthy

49:08

so they know they they're get you bet well

49:10

i adore that they are the people they have their families

49:12

there era

49:14

your your life is real it's not abstract

49:17

the point where the abstractions

49:19

themselves become a problem the and pick

49:21

up there almost like a litmus for

49:24

how we're doing

49:25

the things that were getting wrong and they're showing

49:27

i sit in the face look ah

49:30

it's almost like a heated like a boil that finally

49:32

erupting look these these are the problems

49:34

right with we would have kept silent if you didn't

49:37

screw things up so much by snowy

49:39

of real problem you're not fixing them

49:42

you saw the same thing with yellow jackets

49:44

in france like grabbed

49:47

energy policy started to make energy too

49:49

expensive for ordinary people like well we

49:51

have to save the planet it's like what

49:54

about not on our backs there's

49:56

guys said so and

49:58

we're going to see a lot more about i i

50:00

suspect especially if the elite

50:02

types of their utopias schemes if

50:05

the elite touch with their utopian schemes

50:08

keep walling themselves off from

50:10

the people that they hypothetically represent

50:12

is away the uk jumped out of

50:15

the weather uk voted for breakfast the

50:18

common people thought no to have

50:20

to abstract too much of the tower

50:22

of babel the leaders of got too

50:24

far away from the people they represent then

50:26

i think that made the right decision

50:31

more power to rogan in the truckers okay

50:33

so this is very interesting too because

50:35

so inaugural ends up being a

50:37

master of fire all you

50:39

can think about that as there

50:42

is a book written a while back by primatologist

50:47

also wrote demonic males richard

50:49

wrangham and he talked about

50:51

the origin of fire and as far as rang

50:53

him is concerned we invented fire about two million

50:55

years ago and that enabled us to

50:57

cook food and that enabled us

50:59

to swap intestinal

51:01

length for brain so

51:04

if you look at a chimpanzee you know chimpanzees

51:06

are like the ultimate in couch potatoes

51:09

right they're they're they're both this high in their

51:11

shape like this they have this huge barrel

51:13

body and reason they have that is because

51:15

the leaves and so they have to spend

51:17

like eight hours a day eating leaves they will

51:20

eat meat if they can get it there for like eight

51:22

hours a day eating leaves and just showing them over

51:24

and over because like leaves a they don't

51:26

want to be eaten so they're pretty tough and inedible

51:29

and be they don't have any new trick nutritive quality

51:31

to speak up so the chimpanzee as to spend

51:33

all of it's time to it which is rather

51:35

mindless endeavor all things considered whereas

51:38

human beings two million years ago or thereabouts

51:41

invented fire and as and consequence of that

51:43

we could cook meat and meat is incredibly

51:46

energy are rich and

51:49

so and it's easy to digest once it's

51:51

court and so the consequence

51:53

of the invention of fire was that the

51:56

way we are today we could have a brain

51:59

instead of a gut so the

52:01

idea that pinocchio mastery

52:04

of fire it's as

52:06

something more than merely a means of cooking

52:08

that's how it started out right but you can think of our entire

52:10

technological capacity

52:13

as stemming from the mastery of fire

52:16

now the other thing you can think of and this is very much

52:18

worth considering is that pinocchio

52:20

masters fire and not turns the

52:22

whale into whale dragon and so the idea

52:24

there to is that and this and this old ideas

52:26

that our technological

52:28

prowess the

52:31

something that makes nature

52:33

itself angry and

52:36

of course you might say what do you believe this an answer

52:38

to that is while how many of you have environmentalist

52:40

leanings and that's exactly

52:43

the story that your follow iirc

52:45

as you're still wondering about whether or not mastery

52:48

of fire was in somehow against the natural

52:50

order and that it will end up in all of our death

52:53

then you know that's a reasonable thing to worry about but

52:56

nor mastering it was gonna end up pretty badly

52:59

to and in you were going to talk about alleges

53:01

the pope potential

53:03

proposed legislation in the uk that sort

53:05

of i'd understand emerged out all this

53:07

the what's happening on the legislative

53:10

front

53:11

well she tried to say something about that are of

53:13

i mean get was give you that

53:15

arab as mentioned it already and is what give me a little

53:17

bit of background to that i'm jordan of

53:20

is twenty nine teen that that that

53:23

round about that an issue i think we may twenty

53:25

nineteen of such a lot of talk about what had

53:27

happened to you at cambridge in

53:29

policy circles and government circles

53:32

and out of those sorts of discussions

53:34

i suspect that kind of crystallized

53:37

a manifesto commitment in the conservative

53:39

party manifesto for the december twenty nineteen

53:42

uk general election had

53:44

a very a very strong statement

53:46

about the importance of the university sex important

53:49

our education in a post break that economy

53:51

and also signaled some concerns

53:53

about what was going on that especially

53:56

on academic freedom to that was remarkable

53:58

to see i still remember when i when i saw that man

54:00

about the came up to that's absolutely fantastic

54:02

it's like they're going to be serious about this ah

54:05

and indeed they indeed they

54:07

they started dropping important

54:09

piece of legislation i think it's really the probably

54:12

one of the first of its kind that fits

54:15

that that that that is that clear and

54:17

unimplanted in in

54:19

in the west or the uk that leading away

54:21

on this it , the legislation

54:24

itself you know some people you know my

54:26

view is that it's it's a shame that it's hard to come

54:28

to this you know we do not great we do

54:30

not want governments stepping

54:32

into and regulating and

54:36

, internet two cups of the the university

54:38

that's not what the

54:40

legislation does it just

54:42

provides a right for

54:45

academic makes or visiting speakers

54:47

you've been disinvited academics be

54:50

hi i'm fairly to at

54:52

a direct line of appeal to

54:54

an ombudsman effectively at a necklace

54:56

so called academic freedom champion

54:59

and that's said as a kind of quasar

55:01

judicial process that which is gonna would

55:03

hold in principle open up university

55:06

to significant financial my ability through

55:08

fine if they were found to have a

55:10

breach that duty to promote academic freedom

55:12

and and protect the rights of instincts because

55:15

ah and so on so i think you are you in

55:17

principle may may may have had a a

55:20

line of of of the appeal to

55:24

new post as and when it it it it

55:26

it comes into being now there's still

55:28

some problems with the legislation for example i think

55:30

our fun i agreed that it doesn't go

55:32

, enough on protecting

55:35

academics from ah academics

55:38

from interference or plus

55:40

the bit as as violation of curricular content

55:43

are you know that that freedom of speech academic

55:46

freedom of speech means freedom to teach

55:49

freedom to select content and freedom to deliver

55:51

it as they see fit of course to some extent

55:54

of the shed institutional enterprise eyes

55:56

defining correct and so on but there should be

55:58

a feasible presumption that active i

56:02

know how they want to ,

56:04

it it mean i think

56:07

he will it

56:09

will it think i hope shift a shift

56:11

the culture in some of the ways that the qualities

56:13

legislation shifted culture ten

56:15

years ago and and even

56:17

if it may be imperfect when it gets

56:20

brought ascent nevertheless i mean ascent think

56:22

that it will the make by

56:24

chance listen senior university

56:26

stop route the throughout the country to sit

56:28

up and realize that there are consequences

56:31

to to continue to to

56:33

allow this this culture to flourish

56:35

and

56:36

the negative other really it's

56:39

really appropriate that

56:41

initiative came from the faculty of divinity

56:44

at cambridge you know that it can be traced

56:46

at least to the offense perhaps

56:48

the events that took place there it's quite

56:50

that's quite something when you you

56:52

know step back and think about it well

56:55

i mean you know the in it's

56:57

it in his defense i are i had a

56:59

conversation with roger scruton rant about that

57:01

time who who expressed his ah

57:04

beat disappoint been at the

57:07

the treatment meted out to you and that

57:09

he said something quite interesting he said that when

57:11

he was in the eastern europe in the nineteen

57:13

eighties setting up a underground

57:16

universities in warsaw

57:18

pact countries dickie poland hungary and

57:20

czech republic ah by some

57:22

kind of strange quirk or though

57:25

the university of to give you know as you cambridge wouldn't

57:28

confer degrees or or

57:30

credentials it was considered politically dead

57:32

too difficult i think the divinity fact

57:34

he did have some kind of degree

57:37

conferring power had was able

57:39

to a credit to recognize that a diploma

57:41

in theology and that's exactly how roger

57:43

got his the students

57:46

at that their diplomas their diplomas were from the back to

57:48

dementia at the university though it was

57:51

i think from his point of view it it was especially

57:54

you know heartbreaking that that things developed

57:56

as as as they did in an

57:58

alley twenty nineteen but just

58:00

to reiterate i've had no

58:03

criticisms or fruit

58:06

from colleagues within the back of the i think that's

58:08

great excitement that's that you're coming over

58:10

and and and great grass teach

58:12

you that you then the kind of graciousness

58:15

than forbearance to to an

58:18

alleyway let bygones be bygones and

58:21

bygones and and go ahead with the

58:23

visit that had been planned back then which

58:25

which i think you probably wouldn't have been able to

58:27

to to to do anyway given

58:29

all the horrible things started to the

58:32

happened to you know that and county health wise

58:34

i'm in in twenty nineteen

58:37

there were like like i said i'm i'm

58:39

absolutely thrilled to be able to do

58:41

this well because like as seem to be able to

58:43

do it not something but also that i have

58:45

the opportunity again i think you'd have to be a pretentious

58:48

fool not to you cannot

58:51

and an opportunity like out and be

58:53

grateful for it and like every deep

58:55

there's mistake mistakes made you know

58:57

him nuts that but who knows you know

58:59

is if the upshot of this all is that

59:02

the protection for freedom of inquiry

59:05

speech in the uk is is strengthened

59:07

and maybe that's a model for the west is like

59:09

well as a the small

59:11

price to pay even though it was

59:14

you know it was unpleasant so now

59:16

sale of a you know so here's what

59:18

happens is that in the midst of this complete

59:21

chaos pinocchio as choice and the choices

59:23

neither save themselves which is very

59:25

very

59:26

selfish choice and reduces

59:29

him to and a historical individual

59:31

because he has no relationship left with his father

59:33

or he can put us fits himself at great risk

59:36

and ret rescue his father

59:38

know finish the process stop his father

59:41

from drowning your

59:43

life has changed dramatically

59:47

if

59:49

you could have taken a route

59:52

i guess i'm asking in a would you do it again

59:55

i do but i don't want our said in the cliched

59:57

way and maybe

59:59

it's a stupid quest you just don't know

1:00:01

but no are you okay yeah

1:00:04

yeah i mean it you know

1:00:06

on the one hand if i think about it logically

1:00:09

what i do it again in a heartbeat

1:00:11

there are few things i might do slightly

1:00:13

differently but i'm not even compelled

1:00:16

you know i think it

1:00:19

went pretty well in light of what

1:00:22

the the in play worse

1:00:25

but you know the the thing that we've

1:00:27

lost his security

1:00:31

right look at it is and you

1:00:33

the world

1:00:34

i mean people might you got a settlement from the university

1:00:37

but that

1:00:39

was a trivial proportion of your future

1:00:42

for your mutual future earnings it was nothing

1:00:44

he was enough so you didn't starve to death immediately

1:00:46

but that was all right

1:00:49

the a you know and be if

1:00:51

i if i'm honest about it we were forced to

1:00:53

move

1:00:54

out of our home to a different

1:00:56

city be uprooted our children's

1:00:59

lives which was

1:01:01

quite disruptive am but

1:01:05

i really don't feel

1:01:07

there was any choice i

1:01:10

don't know if i if i think about it as

1:01:12

a matter of choice i cannot find

1:01:14

the circuit that would have done anything

1:01:16

differently and i'm

1:01:19

i'm not all

1:01:21

i can say is our lives

1:01:24

full of purpose and

1:01:26

we're doing fine the

1:01:28

absence of security is something i think

1:01:30

about a lot but yes

1:01:35

i would say

1:01:37

there wasn't any choice nor should there have been

1:01:39

and i'm not

1:01:42

i'm not sorry i made the choices i did

1:01:44

in the slightest

1:01:46

when you look good man the new look

1:01:49

if you don't mind me saying you look different than you

1:01:51

did when i saw you before while

1:01:54

i'm older now well smith is a

1:01:56

years i've noticed this and when my clinical

1:01:58

clients when they

1:02:00

the integrate their aggression

1:02:04

their face is hard nick

1:02:06

think they look determined all of a sudden

1:02:08

instead of questioning and you

1:02:10

look like that more than

1:02:12

you did know some of that from getting older

1:02:14

but not all of it it's i

1:02:17

think you know if know if understanding

1:02:20

you correctly it's probably a lot about

1:02:23

the

1:02:24

you know getting catapulted into

1:02:27

the big leagues and learning

1:02:29

to to play that role

1:02:32

at some you know it's

1:02:34

trial by fire but certainly

1:02:37

it's been fascinating and

1:02:40

i'm looking forward to see what comes next

1:02:45

famous last words yeah

1:02:49

that's ominous governor from unionist pinocchio

1:02:52

dies

1:02:53

then his father brings them home and

1:02:55

so because his rescued his father the

1:02:57

benevolent spirit of nature appears

1:03:02

resurrect them and

1:03:04

turns them into a real human though

1:03:07

it's pretty funny as far as i'm concerned that the

1:03:09

answer to need she's great question manifested

1:03:12

itself in nineteen the

1:03:14

nineteen thirties in the form of in that form

1:03:16

of anatomy to charles movies so

1:03:19

you know and that's an that's an example it's an

1:03:22

example of a number of things succeed an example

1:03:24

of how archetypes work it's also

1:03:26

an example of how artists are on the edge

1:03:28

of discovery all the time and they

1:03:30

discover things they don't even understand

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