0:08

the christ in the gospels is quite merciful

0:10

and one of young's

0:13

propositions was

0:15

that there's an ancient line of religious thinking that

0:17

has mercy and justice as the two hands

0:19

of god too

0:21

much mercy is the devouring mother

0:23

everything's okay no one's ever called to

0:25

account and so, no one ever matures

0:27

and takes responsibility but

0:29

justice, without mercy is

0:31

too harsh because we all fall short of the

0:33

mark so, god

0:35

rules with a balance of justice and mercy,

0:37

and the price in the gospels hints

0:40

of temper and judgment is presented

0:42

and quite a merciful manner but in this revelation

0:44

the his his a judge it's like know

0:47

he are unworthy and since the select

0:49

are few and you think what what

0:51

does that mean it's like well imagine

0:53

sorting yourself out into the

0:55

select and and the unworthy

0:58

perhaps most of us select

1:00

but i doubt it and you certainly

1:02

aren't going to start that way no

1:05

nothing that isn't approximating the ideal

1:07

is select sox in any case

1:12

proposition was that ideal

1:14

is a judge that

1:17

makes perfect sense because an

1:19

ideal is something which

1:22

he was fire and the gap

1:25

between you and not ideal it's your ideal

1:27

is spelled judgment

1:29

and so that's one of the reasons

1:31

people are very afraid to have an ideal to

1:33

make it that's why i wrote do not hide things

1:36

in the fog it's like well he's

1:38

lay out an ideal you should pursue an ideal

1:40

why wouldn't you well when you make your ideal

1:42

explicit it's turns into your judge

1:45

well then you can listen to that jobs and

1:48

and move forward and transform but

1:50

you know it's pretty damn harsh because

1:54

it too especially to begin with me pause

1:56

it an ideal especially if you're in a mass

1:59

god

1:59

every bit of you is being judged

2:02

as unworthy

2:03

the

2:04

is there an endless reasons not

2:06

to once that

2:09

and then the the way forward

2:11

is to have that idea because those ideals

2:14

are in some ways noble truths these things

2:16

about loving the collective because

2:19

the collective is the same it's true whether

2:21

people want to adopted or not at least in my

2:23

opinion that things that are consciousness

2:25

knows to true vital

2:27

the idea that exists i think it's true you

2:30

are in fact that

2:31

community across time though

2:33

so knows no difference between

2:36

what's good for you and what's good for other people there's

2:38

actually no difference not if you're not

2:40

have you extended part of the aren't technically

2:43

the same thing

2:44

so you so you have this ideal

2:47

that is there whether you acknowledge it or

2:49

not and you it and you feel

2:51

that thing and then but where it gets you get

2:53

up is when you have an expectation you're

2:56

going to magically travel

2:58

and teleport from where you are which

3:00

is full of your own corruptions and full of your

3:02

own selfishness to meet that

3:04

ideal immediately so the mercy

3:06

comes from saying this is the ideal

3:09

that the expectation of judgment that i'm

3:11

going to be at that right away

3:13

is false so let me appreciate

3:16

myself right here where i am in this journey

3:18

with all my fault however many

3:20

they are open up my entire closet

3:22

of internal monsters pet on

3:24

the head and say okay here we go eliminating

3:27

more of those and becoming like

3:29

the ideal surrendering to the journey

3:31

rather than that expectation and their

3:33

the judge no carries the sting

3:36

and the bite in the harshness because

3:38

it's you're judging yourself according to a timeline

3:41

where you're hoping to get closer to this yes well

3:43

in the homework starts to become pregnant

3:46

right right is lachlan that's great that's

3:48

that's not as that's a really sustaining

3:51

the

3:52

a relief to sustaining process to

3:55

because technically speaking again

3:58

seeing yourself

3:59

towards the desired goal is the

4:02

essence of the positive emotion that nourishes

4:04

us and i mean technically that's

4:07

dopaminergic lead mediated incentive

4:09

reward

4:10

and so

4:11

you don't have to get to the goal

4:14

you have to

4:15

speier to the and move towards

4:17

it and that then that doesn't even matter if the goal

4:20

which will you approach it because years

4:22

you know your ability to horn europe

4:24

what constitutes the is going to become

4:26

more sophisticated as you move towards it and

4:29

you might think well that's terrible

4:31

but it isn't because means the game doesn't have

4:33

the end

4:34

right because you may you hit

4:36

the idea of oh well game over receptive

4:39

no no no that is is and be it works it's

4:41

just it's gonna get better

4:43

better and better and it's

4:46

it's it's why it's life is the perfect game

4:48

i mean if you have a really good for those of us who

4:50

played video games you have a really good video

4:53

game or even really book or even a really good movie

4:55

series or show and it comes

4:57

to the end and you're like ah there's

4:59

a huge letdown at the termination

5:02

of thing that's incredibly engaging

5:04

message when jackson

5:06

were you when and isn't that moment satisfaction

5:09

but it's replace almost immediately by the

5:11

disappointment of the cessation of the game

5:13

and the recognition that in a finite game when

5:15

you really want to be playing the incentive game and that's

5:17

what life is the infinite game of

5:20

renewal of life and that's why it's so

5:22

good will never replace it a can't get better

5:24

and as hard as hell and

5:26

it's are to fell at the same time and that's

5:29

that's the way we want

5:30

it seems like that's the way we wanted i

5:32

mean that's another thing or talk about little bit new

5:34

book is like

5:36

well when you look back on your past generally

5:40

having done something difficult that you

5:43

remember

5:45

the jubilee i would say so

5:50

then there's something about use it craves difficulties

5:53

optimal difficulty at least strangely

5:56

enough this show is sponsored

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jordan now

7:11

the not hide unwanted

7:12

things in the fog which seems

7:15

to we live in a constant state of distraction

7:17

now you've mentioned twitter a couple times it's like

7:20

his twitter bringing any of us happiness or

7:22

is it keeping us all in a constant state of fog

7:24

any you know overload and the endless

7:26

ah obsession with politics that

7:29

all seems like a fog to me you know

7:31

i do my august off the grid and and

7:33

i do yeah i do that to get

7:35

out of the fall so

7:37

we're clear direction his death destruction

7:40

is definitely far the

7:42

in new york distract yourself i think

7:44

you distract yourself mostly when your conscience

7:47

is bothering you give you don't

7:49

want to face what it

7:51

is in life that that is uncomfortable

7:54

on dot chapters again quite practical

7:57

it's it's it's it's a reminder to

7:59

pay it engine often to negative emotion

8:02

resentment and that sort of thing because it can

8:04

tell you while

8:06

resentment is very useful maybe

8:08

you get maybe your partner is talking

8:11

someone then there are little bit more animated

8:13

than you'd like and you get jealous and

8:16

that jealousy is associated with a whole set

8:18

of insecurities or

8:21

maybe they're flirting then they shouldn't

8:23

be it's not that easy to

8:26

determine a maybe you have big fight about

8:28

that but you could just as well pretend

8:30

that didn't happen you know either

8:32

motion comes up on jealous on resentful

8:35

it's associated with experiences like that in

8:37

the past the psychoanalyst would have called that you

8:40

could notice that you can take a while should i

8:42

be jealous there's something wrong

8:45

with me or there there's something wrong my partner

8:47

there's something wrong with the relationship and

8:50

after handle

8:52

that and who knows what you have to

8:54

untangle to get that straight you

8:56

can bear the jealousy and see what will happen in the

8:59

or maybe to disintegrate because your is

9:01

flirting it's you that it's not

9:03

like you repress it exactly and

9:05

this chapters and attempt to distinguish repression

9:07

from this hiding in the fog it's that's

9:09

you get a hint that something's wrong

9:13

and then to and then you have to

9:15

unpack that his to pull the information

9:17

out you know why so maybe

9:19

your partner is flirting they

9:22

shouldn't be and so then you have

9:24

to find out why they're dissatisfied

9:26

with the relationship or what's tempting the

9:28

more or what is crooked

9:30

in their soul left the moment or the mate

9:33

or what they're dissatisfied about terrible

9:36

journey of exploration and discovery

9:39

you know that's what was presented as something that's positive

9:41

it's it's often not

9:43

at all it's so hard it's like doing

9:45

surgery on on a separating wound

9:47

it's and it's no wonder people avoid it

9:50

but it's not helpful you

9:53

know because all does is leave that

9:55

that those things grow and multiply

9:57

in the dark and if you ignore them they

9:59

just cast

9:59

it do they was better that's just self

10:02

protection for most people that most people they

10:04

they see it they know that that

10:06

truth behind them of whether it's about

10:08

partner whatever may be but they

10:10

just it's just self protection like oh i just

10:12

gotta keep moving on as things are that were just

10:15

creatures of habit

10:16

when i got well sometimes it's that

10:18

announced it especially gets to be doubt

10:20

if it's if it's if it's accumulated for

10:23

a long time because if you wouldn't

10:25

have the if you wouldn't deal with it when it was a kitten

10:27

you're not going to deal with it when it's a full grown

10:29

lion and so

10:32

but i think mostly it's and something

10:35

else i i returned to in the book is it's deceit

10:37

resentment and arrogance i

10:39

already know what i need

10:42

to know that's arrogance

10:44

the seed is i don't have to pay attention

10:46

to that and resentment is

10:48

well can go to hell and so can

10:50

he or she no went

10:52

outside that's a pretty dark triad

10:57

and you don't want the spirit that

10:59

embodies out to take over your life that's

11:01

for sure motherhood

11:05

isn't as high of and occupation

11:07

as it should be then

11:09

that's a cultural failing we're also

11:12

how many mom following year so

11:14

many more fans

11:15

i didn't wanna see know when my have

11:18

little kids it was often

11:20

the case that she wasn't well treated in

11:22

restaurants and so forth especially if especially wasn't

11:24

there

11:26

so in that wasn't good or i thought

11:28

that was a sign of real cultural sickness

11:30

that a a mother with a young child is treated

11:34

badly that's very bad idea that's

11:36

, of this casual so anyways when you're

11:39

eighteen or seventeen or nineteen or twenty two

11:41

it's like what he wants exactly

11:43

what what he wants and

11:46

that's that's home i wrote about

11:48

that in chapter three of this new book

11:50

beyond order don't hide things in the fog

11:53

you have to let yourself know what you want

11:56

while so you make you make of what you want and

12:01

what is that what he wants someone who's productive

12:03

and generous and honest that's a real good

12:05

start you want someone that you're physically attracted

12:07

to

12:08

i

12:11

you want someone who's the education

12:13

and intelligence roughly match or exceed

12:15

your own

12:16

stop reading

12:21

oh

12:23

and then if you've

12:24

someone like that then

12:27

that's really want right

12:29

and and you should that new should you

12:31

should know the soft and because it at least

12:34

you're looking in the right place at

12:36

the some

12:44

i know a lot of young men follow you

12:47

would rather die do a

12:49

do or say that not

12:52

all the time you're quite a little extra

12:54

bucks

12:55

tell them all the times i get out

12:57

there and ask and say my clinical practice to

12:59

it's like not gonna find some unless you ask

13:01

and you know for all

13:03

there's a lot of criticism

13:05

the

13:06

aimed out the

13:09

you know those those the men's movements

13:12

to teach men how to be a player how to act

13:14

women how to there's a lot of negative

13:16

press aimed at those and i can understand

13:18

why is this kind of a psychopathic element

13:21

to it but one of the things those movements

13:23

do do is to really encourage

13:25

young men to overcome their fear of approaching

13:28

women and and these and asking them for

13:30

their phone number for a date or for

13:32

a conversation or for a coffee and profile

13:35

up on i'm on

13:37

a dating profiles dress up

13:39

nicely get a professional

13:41

photograph taken the know put your best

13:44

foot forward and have

13:46

enough courage to approach some women and maybe

13:49

get over your fear and yes it's

13:51

so but i would say the young women if you

13:53

find someone who you think fits

13:55

your criteria and you're

13:58

not being asked out asked them

14:01

never report

14:03

what's the alternative to wait in

14:05

with are on the vines that doesn't seem

14:07

very useful

14:12

what would you say would be the the keys to your successes

14:15

fifty years

14:17

loving each other and being

14:19

you know what seems to be a healthy functional

14:21

relationship when in society

14:23

today that doesn't seem like many of those

14:26

well we we really

14:28

do our best not to lie

14:31

the each other about anything and

14:34

we also

14:36

how fights

14:37

when they're necessary we don't let things

14:40

we don't hide things in the fog

14:43

that's the title of chapter of my new book

14:45

don't hide things in the fog and

14:48

we work through our issues if

14:50

we're if we have a dispute we do our

14:53

level best to get to the of

14:55

it to find out what in the world's causing

14:57

at who's

14:59

need to change and why and

15:01

how and when and

15:03

then how we can progress

15:05

forward into the future without having

15:08

that issue dog us or

15:10

right behind us or interfere

15:12

with us at all and

15:15

that means a fair bit of

15:17

confrontation i would say but

15:21

in left so over the years

15:23

as we've said more and more things but

15:27

everything that in the open everything

15:29

that we can get his out of out in the open

15:32

if you can't ever without trust

15:36

if you trust your partner courageously

15:39

if you're not naive knowing that

15:41

you can be hurt and that you can be deceived

15:43

and you can also do both of those things for

15:45

you offer your partner your trust as

15:48

an invitation them

15:51

to be honest and forthcoming and

15:54

and while in

15:56

many issues come up and you delve into them and

15:58

straighten them out

16:01

in my marriage my relationship

16:03

with my children and my clinical practice

16:08

you have to negotiate that's when men

16:10

and women have to do and so i

16:12

talk about that particularly in three

16:14

of my new book which is don't hide things

16:16

in the fog

16:18

like

16:19

let's talk about sex for example

16:21

that's a good when there's a stumbling block and relationship

16:24

let's talk about sex hard

16:28

people don't do it they're uncanny like

16:30

you'll have sex still engaged in sexual acts

16:33

represents abstractly and disgust

16:37

you know so well how

16:40

often should we have sex

16:44

well

16:45

how are you can solve that problem the

16:47

offers more each person has to admit how

16:50

often they like to have sex they might be

16:52

uncomfortable without right off the bat might not

16:54

even know because the so uncomfortable

16:56

about it they never even asked themselves

17:00

and then you have to ask yourself what what

17:03

will i do if i don't get soft

17:07

people don't like that question either because it means

17:09

what you're going to get better and you're going to get resentful

17:11

and you can get moby and whiny and so

17:13

you're going to justify having an affair at

17:15

looking elsewhere and you don't want to admit

17:17

that yourself so you won't have the damn discussion

17:20

like as soon as you know that you're deeply

17:24

and if sexually frustrated

17:26

you're more likely just to see to stray

17:30

then you can be afraid of yourself enough to

17:32

overcome the fear to have the conversations

17:34

like look are woman if

17:37

we don't make love three times a week

17:40

i'm so windy and image sure that

17:42

i'm gonna go to strip bars and that doesn't

17:44

work out well for a relationship has

17:47

a sunday known she might say well why that what

17:49

you the hell up and you know i'm

17:51

so overworked i'm have sixty

17:53

hour have week work week i'm because lawyer

17:55

and i have three small kids and their clamoring

17:58

for my attentions my goddamn minnesota

18:00

miserable wretch that he threatens

18:03

me with you know marital disintegration

18:05

if i don't pull out another four hours

18:07

a week to please like fair

18:09

enough those are two good argument since who

18:11

the hell wants to have that discussion my

18:15

sense is it's slavery

18:17

or negotiation there

18:20

are more couples through this process many

18:22

times we'll get back to rule three

18:24

of beyond order

18:25

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19:30

[unk] j b p

19:33

there's a part in our chapter three

19:35

ah

19:37

there you talk about you talk about

19:39

the fall an

19:41

arm and ,

19:43

wrote on his senses has that sometimes years

19:45

so afraid that you will not allow

19:48

yourself to even know what you want

19:50

ah

19:51

i think that's very common it really

19:54

hit me hard sometimes i are

19:56

you know i admit i'm afraid to like i'm

19:58

afraid even map

19:59

the

20:00

even to really write down a map

20:03

out what i want

20:05

but i don't know exact i had a really

20:07

drop down and figure out what the fear

20:10

of was like why am afraid like and

20:12

and i had some have had some trouble figure

20:15

in that out like am i afraid

20:17

that i'll have to didn't do it am it that

20:19

i'll didn't feel inadequate based

20:21

upon i really want and where i currently

20:23

am i'm so i'm

20:25

just wanted to to maybe expand

20:27

on that on that bit and and just

20:30

cannot share like what'd you think why do i get

20:32

afraid to to really

20:34

admit even admit to myself

20:37

what i really want

20:38

if you know what you want then you

20:40

know when you're failing if

20:43

you don't allow yourself to know what you want you can keep

20:45

that foggy if

20:48

you don't set out the conditions for your success

20:50

than you can avoid your responsibility because

20:53

again that's not clear and the problem

20:55

with wanting something is that all you're

20:57

going to have to work for you're going to have to make sacrifices

21:00

and it's certainly possible that you want to avoid

21:02

that you

21:06

you might be afraid to make it clear because

21:08

other people could deny it to you too which

21:10

is something i read about fair bit and not chapter

21:14

problem is and

21:17

failing to make any of that clear protects

21:19

you right now but

21:22

it's really hard on you over the medium to

21:24

long term because if

21:26

you don't make it clear to what

21:28

you want or to other people the

21:31

probability that you're just going to into

21:33

it is pretty low and

21:36

and you can put that off indefinitely

21:38

day after day but the problem that

21:40

is you age who are you doing now

21:44

there's obviously a price to be paid

21:46

for that so that

21:49

chapter that's chapter three do not hide things

21:51

hide fog i

21:54

it's a it's a warning about

21:56

failing to pay attention the

21:59

knowledge the in a very strange

22:01

way it it emerges obviously

22:04

when we learned something we started out by

22:06

not knowing it and so what that means is that

22:08

knowledge goes through a transformation

22:11

process from being

22:13

absolutely not there to

22:15

be explicit and fully detailed

22:19

and , step of that as

22:21

emotion and so for example

22:23

you might center so frustrated disappointed

22:26

about the events of the day but be

22:28

unable to exactly specify why

22:30

that's extremely com you know you go home

22:32

to your partner and you be in a bad mood

22:35

and you know you'll snap at them for something

22:37

and they'll say well what's up with you and you'll

22:39

say well nothing you're just being annoying

22:41

when it's perfectly clear to both of you that is

22:44

actually something up with you and

22:46

then that disappointment and frustration

22:48

anger and sadness let's say or anxiety

22:51

is or sign that something isn't right

22:53

but

22:54

it is it i keep it isn't necessary

22:56

that you repressing knowledge of not

22:59

right it's that you just you actually don't

23:01

know and the emotion is

23:03

the first step in the process

23:05

by which that knowledge emerges and you

23:07

might have to sit and think and

23:09

talk to your partner to a for

23:12

god only knows how long before you're actually

23:14

going to put your finger on what it is

23:17

that you're upset about and it

23:19

could be very far removed

23:21

from whatever happened to trigger you

23:23

in the moment

23:24

and so

23:25

that's a fog and do you can keep

23:27

things in the fog just by not doing

23:30

that it's really easy it's know dip more

23:32

difficult than just sitting there doing nothing

23:34

because knowledge is active

23:37

and difficult yet at woods

23:40

know we've created we've created such

23:42

a

23:43

perfect fog these days like

23:46

really the fog has been it's

23:49

, such a bit the foggiest such a business

23:51

every little thing that taking that that

23:53

can be created to take away your attention

23:57

or

23:58

that can take away our attention from

23:59

during out who we are are like kind of spelunking

24:02

inside of ourselves and trying to get some

24:04

answers arm has really

24:06

been created it's it's

24:09

, masterful how much has been created

24:11

out here on the outside to our attention

24:14

away from delving inside of ourselves

24:17

well you know attention is the

24:19

basic currency right everyone

24:21

fights for it it's

24:23

incredibly valuable and it

24:25

it certainly is the case that also

24:29

very tempting to turn

24:31

your attention to the

24:34

thing that grasp you're term interest

24:37

rather than say pursuing the of

24:40

emotion that's a that's a good example and

24:43

of course we massive corporations working

24:45

night and day to

24:47

attention and there's

24:49

something sinister about that obviously

24:51

but but you ,

24:53

exactly lay responsibility at their

24:56

feet because there isn't that there's

24:58

a tremendous overlap between educating

25:01

people informing them

25:03

the

25:05

making them a ten to you and and

25:07

the lines between all of those things

25:10

are very foggy

25:12

let's say and difficult to lay

25:14

out it's certainly the case that one

25:16

of the ways that you can keep yourself in a fog

25:19

about usaf is by distracting

25:23

the through distraction with external

25:25

the

25:26

with anything in the external world obviously

25:29

computer technology cellphones games

25:32

well north

25:34

the negative in and of themselves perhaps

25:38

are there any moment oh yeah rocks

25:40

you at any moment yeah those the year the

25:42

little things are time consumers like yeah

25:45

, companies are businesses where that is

25:47

there that's or much that's business

25:49

is to get your attention everything's trying

25:51

to get our attention sometimes i

25:53

worry that the forces

25:56

that are out there that have like started to

25:58

in a really great the rhythm even

26:00

on how to get our attention and the how to keep

26:03

it that those forces are than

26:06

ours human abilities to who

26:09

keep them away from us do you feel

26:11

like that that's true or do you feel like that that i the

26:14

i really do believe that that's i

26:16

look as far as i can tell

26:19

we are teaching computers to read

26:22

our minds

26:23

fast we possibly can and

26:26

they're way better out than they were

26:28

ten years ago and they're going to be so much better

26:30

added in five years that we won't even be able to

26:32

imagine that and

26:34

when i say read our minds

26:36

no talking about something

26:39

oh yeah for example

26:41

i'm i'm i guess was hey this is all

26:43

i get like they're gonna guess what we're thank dinner

26:45

guess what we want for dinner or anything that probably

26:48

well they might

26:49

but they won't it by directly reading our

26:51

brain waves or anything like that they'll

26:55

there already

26:57

algorithms that target advertisements

26:59

to send it you are pretty good at deciding

27:01

what it is that you're motivated to pursue

27:04

and now oh yeah her i

27:06

just got an ad of my phone for your new book actually

27:08

so yeah oh well good so i've been the

27:11

same process saving nefarious process

27:13

of the run that that

27:16

i think it's facebook but i might be

27:18

wrong about this that one's oculus and

27:21

, headset the vr headset company now

27:24

you can you can rak

27:26

i mean months

27:28

with a vr headset and

27:30

psychologists use the tracking

27:32

a by movements to

27:34

map attention in high detail

27:36

now look if

27:38

you look at our eyes you see that

27:41

there's a colored circle and a dark circle

27:43

in the middle and then them surrounded by white

27:46

and that makes your very

27:48

visible to other people animals

27:50

too but tell their people particularly human

27:53

eyes are quite unique in that regard and

27:55

it looks like we've evolved to have

27:57

highly visible eyes

27:59

and reasons

28:00

for that is that other we communicate

28:03

with other people and they can read our motivations

28:06

by watching our eyes so

28:08

if you stand the corner and you look

28:10

up at nothing in the sky

28:13

and you stand there long enough someone

28:15

will join you and then if is two people

28:17

them they'll be ten right away and

28:19

the reason for that is that we

28:22

and it is against something uniquely human

28:25

we attend to where other people

28:27

point their eyes i'm assuming

28:30

that if they're interested in we

28:32

might be interested in it too and

28:34

so that's and human beings are

28:36

visual animals about half our brain

28:38

is is taken up with visual processing

28:40

were much more visual that virtually any other animal

28:43

and so computers are soon

28:45

going to be able to track where we place our eyes

28:48

which of course advertisers are incredibly interested

28:50

in that's going to speed

28:52

up the ability of the

28:55

high powered computational devices to

28:57

understand human beings

28:59

as a group but also each of us individually

29:01

to an immense degree men's

29:04

degree and and i

29:06

think we're probably ten years away from

29:09

computers that understand us better than we

29:11

understand ourselves of ai

29:13

machines are going to get extremely good at this

29:15

because it's so lucrative

29:18

two to able to gauge the

29:21

tension there's there's nothing that's more

29:23

valuable than that and so

29:25

do you feel like it's do you feel

29:27

like

29:28

there should be like it's hard to say

29:30

there should be legislation because hate

29:33

to put anything on our our are you know that

29:35

the gov it's the government's responsibility

29:38

but should there be rules

29:40

legislation between allowing

29:44

computers , a i to get

29:46

that advanced or is it still

29:48

does fall on the seat of us

29:51

as humans just a battle

29:53

kind of the dark arts of of of

29:56

these machines that can sort of like

29:59

hague earth the new a trance and then

30:01

monetize the trance said the same time

30:05

i think i think that legislation

30:08

in some senses it's gonna be playing

30:10

catch up and it's gonna be farther and

30:12

farther behind all the time because this

30:14

is moving so fast and with such power

30:17

and it's so distributed no

30:19

one is going to be able to the

30:21

even keep track of it much less regulated

30:23

i mean the the the

30:26

the interconnected environment is changing

30:28

so rapidly that even if you're tech

30:31

savvy you can't keep up with all the major

30:34

changes and there's there's

30:37

the evidence whatsoever that that it's going to do

30:39

anything but accelerate and so

30:42

i can't see how legislators

30:44

have the ghost of a chance at keeping up

30:47

with his even if they knew what to target

30:49

or what to legislate yeah and

30:52

me no more and more engineers or i think

30:54

china now graduates more engineers

30:56

every than the united states has engineers

30:59

or yet sonic be a years old and signing

31:01

be a damn and in your i've been over there and i've seen at

31:04

spa seen at six year old build year dam bridge

31:06

front of me you know him say has there been

31:08

highly capable

31:09

yes well in lots of other cultures are coming

31:12

online very rapidly and so

31:14

we're a while and there's ,

31:16

shortage of unbelievably amateurs

31:19

online as well and and programming

31:22

and and so we

31:24

ain't seen nothing yet heat and i really

31:26

believe computers are gonna your computers

31:28

can understand you so well i think it

31:31

i think be till it knows

31:33

what you're going to do

31:35

more accurately than you do i

31:37

think that's already true to some degree but

31:40

will them were at a real loss because then if

31:42

been afraid to make a plan for myself

31:44

and my life and i've been afraid

31:46

and i've been living been living fog and i binges

31:49

you know kind of sidestepping

31:53

really putting my fucking pants

31:55

on as a human

31:58

hating some action if

32:00

i'm in that fog and then the computer

32:03

is able to figure out what i'm gonna do

32:06

before i've even done it i haven't even made a

32:08

plan then surely the computer's going to make

32:10

a plan for me it feels like i think

32:12

the computer is making a plan for you all the time

32:14

already went by default looked

32:17

that's exactly what is

32:19

is advertising makes a plan you

32:21

it's there's no difference between those two

32:23

things except maybe one of sophistication

32:26

so you know i mean is when

32:28

you're watching something watching an ad pops up

32:31

that's a little world that you could visit

32:33

and the advertiser obviously you

32:35

to visit out and the the problem

32:37

there because you might think well would be really good

32:39

the computer can help make a plan but i think what's

32:42

more likely to happen because

32:44

, at least to begin with the computer is

32:46

going to be paid so to speak by the advertisers

32:49

to capitalize on your short term

32:51

impulsivity is that that

32:53

more attractive distractions

32:55

are going to be dangled in front of front and

32:59

that's and that that's likely

33:01

to keep you in the you and

33:04

and what can i do to battle the fog

33:06

like what can i do you

33:08

know as can i to retain

33:11

my humanity as

33:13

things get more tech

33:16

and more

33:18

and and as tech book comes far

33:20

smarter in some ways you

33:22

know in in technical ways and i'll

33:25

ever be

33:27

well you know i wish i knew the answer

33:29

to that

33:31

i don't that partly because

33:33

the the landscape that's unfolding

33:35

in front of us because it changes so rapidly

33:37

it's unpredictable

33:40

you know other rules in in my

33:42

do box address that to some degree

33:44

i think your your best the

33:46

best bet you have virtually the time

33:48

is to try not to lie

33:50

to yourself in my

33:53

first book

33:54

well rules for life i said

33:57

do not lie no i said

33:59

rule was told the truth or at least do not

34:02

lie because you know you made

34:05

union can you tell the truth you'd have

34:07

know the truth you know you might build

34:09

a tell some partial truth you

34:11

can't tell the truth but can

34:14

not say things that

34:16

you know to be false and in

34:18

the second new one

34:21

rule five is do not do things that

34:23

you hate which is also a kind

34:25

of lie and and i don't mean

34:28

don't do difficult things like get out

34:30

of bed at six in the morning and exercise you know

34:32

you might say well i hate doing to the gym and that

34:35

isn't what i'm a don't really hate going the gym

34:37

you just find it difficult i'm

34:40

thinking more that you might observe

34:42

yourself engaging in activities that

34:45

you find despicable they

34:47

didn't right then but certainly later when

34:49

your conscience dwells on them and that you

34:51

should stop doing that out

34:54

because that's because form of life

34:56

behavioral think the only thing we have to orient

34:59

ourselves is as

35:01

individuals is our willingness

35:03

to

35:04

to live

35:06

who live a life that's relatively free

35:08

of the unnecessary deceit

35:11

or of deceit at all

35:12

the better or worse life is short

35:16

how can we add a sense of urgency

35:18

to

35:23

well i would say by reminding

35:26

yourself that life is short that's

35:28

that's that will add a sense of

35:30

urgency by noticing you

35:32

know i calculated i don't know my

35:34

parents are when my

35:36

parents were in their seventies sixties

35:39

perhaps they are usually saw

35:41

them about once every two years we communicate

35:43

lot more that but we live a long ways apart though

35:46

i calculated you what my dad's prodigal

35:48

lived till his mid eighties or late you somewhere

35:51

in there and he six

35:53

he seventy let's say i'm going to seem forty

35:55

more times

35:57

like okay forty more time

36:02

that urgent

36:05

are you better get it right cause you don't have

36:07

it you don't have that many opportunities

36:10

you know it's the same when you're formulating relationships

36:12

in your adolescence late adolescence and early adulthood

36:16

you don't have that many experiments to run

36:18

you know and and you get

36:20

you get a hold a lot faster than you think

36:23

so

36:25

and attention

36:29

clinton is

36:31

and under rated

36:34

the

36:35

not the same is thinking

36:37

watching

36:39

see what's there in front of your eyes the

36:43

guide yourself as a consequence of what you perceive

36:46

the it's the

36:48

faculty that transforms thought if you

36:50

let it

36:52

so

36:53

and conscience alerts you was well tic

36:56

tic you know wasting time

36:59

the and

37:01

very few people are happy with that it's

37:03

summer burdened by more than others but virtually

37:05

no no one escapes that

37:08

voice of conscience supposed

37:11

to some degree that that's

37:13

, willingness not to engage in deception

37:16

chapter three and beyond order is about that

37:18

that people don't really be pressed the things

37:20

they don't want to face they just failed to unpack

37:22

them you know like

37:25

maybe your on youtube

37:29

regularly

37:30

every time you shut the computer off you feel

37:33

disgusted

37:35

but you don't pay any attention to that

37:38

for a while for two years but then you decide

37:40

you going to pay attention then you find out what the reason you're

37:42

disgusted is you're wasting your life and

37:44

you know that discussed

37:46

his indicating that have but unless you would tend to the

37:48

disgusted on target let it reveal

37:50

itself as informative you don't

37:52

know what the messages you just have a sense

37:55

of disquiet it's not easy

37:57

to transform that of disquiet

37:59

into an

37:59

credible plan and often

38:02

you have talk to someone about it as well

38:04

you have to discover there

38:07

would not like you repressing the motion exactly

38:09

it's that you don't undergo

38:11

the difficult

38:13

process necessary to unpack

38:17

the effort

38:19

it comes back to that assessing assumptions

38:21

that we said before the

38:24

goal of life is to live

38:26

a life which in retrospect we're glad

38:28

that we lived important

38:31

to give ourselves perspective the

38:33

develop that matter cognisance to step away

38:36

from the urgent to step away from the

38:38

phenomena logical day to day existence

38:40

because the present self is a petulant

38:43

child it's lazy

38:45

and at once the positive least resistance and dot

38:47

glass of wine and that new movie on netflix

38:49

on the couch looks really comfortable

38:51

very rarely does it yeah that's the danger

38:53

with impulsive happiness is that it does

38:55

have that present bound quality

38:59

in retrospect that

39:01

can lead to a life that's not while live

39:06

generally that

39:08

yeah the us

39:10

life

39:12

definitely place is philip philosophical

39:14

demands on you whether you

39:16

wanted to or not and so

39:18

it is useful to step back

39:20

in that's likely why the trade

39:23

openness evolve that's the creativity

39:25

dimension that's that dimension that that

39:28

allows people to engage in philosophical

39:30

discourse and to think laterally

39:32

and it does allow you to step

39:35

back and look at things on a broader

39:37

scale and to generate creative

39:40

alternatives the problem with examining

39:42

your senses it's very disquieting

39:45

no because

39:47

you want things to

39:49

the way you predict

39:51

and desire them to act and

39:54

you work within a set of axioms

39:56

and you act them out in order to maintain that

39:59

predictability

40:00

the desirable predictability

40:03

if you mess around the more fundamental

40:05

the axiom that you question the more

40:08

uncertainty you release

40:11

some of that can be positive plenty

40:14

of it can be anxiety provoking i mean just imagine

40:16

that you're in a relationship and in

40:19

a which is maybe a into you haven't

40:21

formalized and finalized but then one

40:23

day you allow yourself to ask the question is

40:25

this a relationship i be

40:29

that's a fundamental question just

40:31

emerged now you're destabilizing your entire

40:33

future your destabilizing

40:36

your present your destabilizing

40:38

your past

40:39

because

40:40

while engaging in the relationship you're acting

40:42

out the assumption that it's the proper relationship

40:45

but now you question that that the story

40:47

you told yourself about what was happening well

40:49

it happened even though it's already

40:51

happened was wrong and something

40:54

else had happened and then you have to think through

40:56

what actually happened so unbelievably

40:59

demanding and the more axiomatic the assumption

41:01

the more certainty is

41:03

cast into the troublesome

41:06

chaos now you could say yeah

41:09

but the alternative is

41:11

worse i believe

41:13

that that's true but but

41:16

the thing about the alternative is that you can

41:18

always forestall it round

41:20

yon and munyaneza that question tomorrow

41:23

you bet you bet and is and very

41:25

powerful temptation and no wonder

41:28

no would you wanna dig up the body now

41:30

or do you want to wait a months it's like well it'll

41:32

more rotten in a month but

41:35

but it's not a month it's not now

41:37

right it's not now

41:40

so i understand why people

41:42

don't want to delve into things even if their emotions

41:44

indicate that they should

41:46

i mean i would see this all the time if

41:48

you're trying to settle in important issue with your

41:50

partner let's say

41:52

that can be a tremendously troublesome

41:56

the excavation process

41:59

and

41:59

no shortage of pain but

42:02

if sorted

42:05

out then maybe things can be better

42:07

doesn't mean it's easy or or or

42:10

pleasant

42:12

quite the like

42:14

surgery and it's not like

42:17

surgery to remove something you

42:19

know that shouldn't be there it's

42:21

necessary but mans still

42:23

surgery

42:26

i think it's possible to develop a

42:29

ah take the

42:32

emotion towards that i

42:35

think it's possible that regulate

42:37

the level of discomfort that you feel

42:39

when you do assess your assumptions on

42:42

the show a lot of the time tried present

42:44

uncomfortable truths insights

42:48

that are accurate that

42:50

disquieting to that

42:53

to me gradually exposing

42:55

people and myself to more and

42:57

more of these and learning that it's not an existential

43:00

threat

43:01

not going to destroy my email

43:03

or learning or learning that it is existential

43:06

threat but that you can handle it correct

43:09

which is really what people learning in

43:12

exposure therapy that's effect it is

43:14

the thing they're afraid of is frightening

43:16

but there are tougher than they

43:18

think and so

43:21

and that's very useful to learn

43:24

yes i i i do while

43:26

it's also the case that

43:29

if you decide that you're going to delve

43:31

into trouble as it rises

43:33

you're likely not to avoid

43:36

the delving process more of the necessary

43:38

so the thing won't grow a monster

43:41

that's quite so large you know

43:43

and so once the relationship you

43:45

have your intimate partner is

43:47

reasonably well constituted and

43:49

you decide that you're going to address problems

43:51

as they arise then it's

43:54

less burdensome then the

43:56

total reconfiguration that might be necessary

43:59

before that has has been has

44:01

been started it's , it's

44:03

a form of mental hygiene i would say in some

44:05

sense and send you do

44:07

get better at that with and

44:11

ah

44:11

you you

44:14

perhaps you also get less likely to jump

44:16

to the worst possible conclusion

44:19

you know so so and that's

44:21

also useful you don't faster fi some

44:24

so much

44:25

if you feel like you're built all if

44:27

you want to grow if you want to improve if you want to become

44:30

a better human it's you

44:32

don't have people around you the also

44:34

want to the scared going to lose

44:36

friends you're scared to you're going

44:38

to be alone as you start to go out

44:40

on a journey of self improvement how

44:43

can people the courage

44:45

to do that

44:48

well one thing they can do is

44:50

copy contemplate the consequences

44:52

of not doing it

44:54

you lose friends well

44:58

you're going to lose the friends you don't want the best for

45:00

you the friends you want can

45:02

years i mean

45:04

you lose friends well maybe the new friends

45:07

may begin better friends or maybe

45:09

miracle of miracles your friends

45:11

pick up there

45:13

miss to and move forward maybe not

45:15

an are no no i'm not naive the optimistic

45:18

about such things but you

45:20

have to contemplate the price pay for inaction

45:22

and this and this i did with my clients all the time it's like

45:25

wow i don't wanna change jobs

45:27

well no wonder

45:29

like you to go up

45:31

put out to be interviewed you

45:33

have to send out five hundred resumes

45:36

you have to be rejected four

45:38

hundred ninety nine times you

45:40

have to polish your interview skills you

45:42

to update your cv which means you have to

45:44

take to real look at the

45:46

inadequacies in your preparation

45:50

maybe won't find a better job site

45:52

no wonder you're afraid of that okay

45:55

you're in this job you hate and it's

45:57

ten years from now

46:00

how did that look

46:02

think about that you already know

46:05

you're in a little hell you

46:07

know perfectly well as gonna get worse

46:10

which is more frightening the

46:12

action or inaction well the thing about

46:14

inaction is your blind to it he

46:17

we can hide from it well that's chapter three again

46:20

do not hide things in the fog do

46:22

not make the assumption

46:24

that inaction there's no price

46:27

so than you think i'm terrified

46:29

of this but i'm even more terrified of that

46:33

that you know have asked me for example

46:39

i

46:41

suppose why i was willing or

46:44

am willing

46:45

who

46:49

engage in the troublesome process of objecting

46:52

when i think something isn't going well

46:57

because i'm more afraid of the consequences

47:00

of

47:02

inappropriate silence

47:04

not that brave

47:07

that i more terrified of the alternative

47:12

so

47:13

so i don't engage in the alternatives and i

47:16

don't know maybe have a knack for that to some degree

47:18

maybe it's a consequence of clinical training but you know

47:20

i can walk into people's houses and look around

47:22

and i think okay or something up here

47:25

i mean people have that ability you

47:28

know i walked into a house once and and

47:31

the dishwasher with in the middle of the kitchen

47:33

and and it was undone

47:36

had obviously been there for couple

47:38

of weeks and the fridge had food in it

47:40

that shouldn't was no longer food and

47:43

the cupboards had on opened wedding gifts

47:45

in them

47:47

like five years after the marriage i thought

47:49

there's a lot of things in household

47:52

that are being swept under the rug

47:56

and that all laid out in in

47:58

the

47:59

the

47:59

go environs

48:02

like they hadn't negotiated who was

48:04

responsible for cleaning the fridge they

48:07

hadn't even been to open their wedding

48:09

gifts psych then

48:12

rotten deeply so

48:16

and so

48:18

i could see that was headed without

48:21

a tremendous amount of effort on the part

48:24

of the be and it work they were divorced

48:26

in only a couple years that in a very

48:28

ugly manner or for very ugly reasons

48:31

well i knew where that was headed

48:34

you know went under different circumstances i

48:37

would have said what

48:39

the hell is that box do in there

48:42

oh you know it's nothing yeah no

48:44

wrong

48:46

it's not nothing that's

48:48

a little puddle to hell

48:50

i can see it and so could you if you

48:52

looked but you won't and

48:54

i mean that literally because people won't look

48:56

the walk into a room like that and they will

48:58

not look at that think absolutely

49:02

the not because if they look they'd see

49:04

and don't wanna

49:07

see no wonder but the consequence

49:09

of blindness is worse it's it's

49:11

worse

49:13

i mean i have this you know my family

49:15

is would like some peace

49:18

because i seem to be embroiled

49:20

in one thing after another and

49:25

they have a point

49:27

that

49:28

these is very hard to obtain

49:31

and i can't be blind to what i in

49:33

the broader world around me notify

49:35

see it

49:36

see or dislike there it is

49:39

the season

49:41

who can you be exactly

49:44

you see that and children are watch little children

49:46

play

49:47

and

49:48

what what they're doing you know they're they're

49:51

they're they're attempting to grow but

49:53

they toyed with with identities

49:56

i'm i'm my little

49:58

granddaughter i wrote about her the book to

50:01

so funny watching her if

50:03

she she had pocahontas the disney

50:05

movie and she had a pocahontas doll

50:07

and she watched that movie a number of times

50:10

and then for well it's been a year

50:12

now she's only three now for a whole year

50:14

she has to name scarlet and elie

50:17

saab and once

50:19

her middle name but but she's called one

50:21

or the other and and seems

50:24

to be perfectly comfortable with if

50:27

you ask her if she's ellie she'll say yes

50:30

and if you ask your see scarlett she'll say yes

50:33

if you ask her if she's pocahontas so

50:35

also say yes and then if you

50:37

ask your she is scarlet elderly

50:40

or pocahontas she'll say she's

50:42

pocahontas and she's been she's

50:44

been insisting on that for a whole year

50:48

and know she's playing

50:51

this wrong i don't know how much of her imagination

50:53

is devoted to it but enough this

50:56

trip like that's if you're how old

50:58

are you forty forty one just turned forty

51:00

ah okay so know imagine

51:02

that you had a fictional identity for

51:04

sixteen years that's approximately

51:06

the same

51:07

relative length of time and

51:10

the kids you know they they

51:13

weave up a fantasy world and then they'll

51:15

let play out and identity in that then

51:18

they we vote another fantasy world in a play

51:20

on an identity without and a shape

51:22

that identity the ranch your

51:24

actions with other children and adults and

51:26

hopefully they find an identity that suits them

51:28

that other people also accept because

51:31

your identity has to be something that people

51:33

accept already isn't going to work for that's

51:36

all part of this exploration who

51:39

they could be no the

51:41

play is in fact the

51:43

the the exercising

51:45

of that realm of possibilities and

51:47

so a good father a good for that

51:50

matter but i think this i think at

51:52

least is an architect billie paternal role

51:54

puts a border of security around

51:56

the child in when the mother might be

51:58

inside that border security

51:59

she has young children at

52:02

play can take place there and

52:04

there players the

52:06

investigation of multiple and identities

52:09

with the hope of finding one that

52:12

suspension or that is also socially

52:14

desire

52:15

those things can't be dissociate it's one

52:17

of the reasons i think that the identity politics

52:20

has bothered me so much of snitches

52:23

you know it's bothered me it's like this author's

52:25

me and i've only recently realized

52:27

that some of it had to do with what

52:29

i as limitations on free speech

52:31

which is i have to say the words

52:34

you know some authority or some

52:36

population

52:37

demands that i say which i don't like

52:40

but do something else to which is

52:42

that it's based on a

52:44

very misleading theory of identity your

52:48

identity is not just

52:50

who how you feel about yourself at

52:52

this moment and you can't impose

52:55

that on other people because they don't know how to

52:58

deal with that even

53:00

if they wanted to they wouldn't know the rules of

53:02

the game you have to negotiate identity

53:04

with other people and so then you have to think

53:07

of identity as something that's negotiated

53:09

with other people so if

53:11

you if you have an implicit theory

53:13

of identity like the one that to be increasingly

53:16

dominating the cultural landscape

53:18

which is identity is something that's only

53:21

subjectively determined than can also

53:23

change from moment to then

53:26

you're misleading people as

53:28

they develop because they come up with a very

53:30

unsophisticated notion of what identity

53:32

is that's not good because

53:34

it's that's that's cool

53:37

like a book part of identity

53:39

is your value to other people at a

53:41

huge part of it

53:43

that's need subjective foods other

53:45

people make that decision

53:47

yeah so any and talk about that

53:49

in i think it's chapter three where you say

53:51

that's one of the ways we our sanity

53:53

is talking to other people and

53:56

interaction with our community

53:58

and and all of these other thing

53:59

the isolate us more and more ice

54:02

to a single yeah objective perspective

54:04

is going to lead to a certain madness

54:06

it is definitely did what

54:08

they exactly what i tried

54:10

to impress upon some of that trans

54:12

activists network

54:14

after me when i first made

54:16

some public statements i said look

54:18

i

54:19

i didn't say it this eloquently unfortunately

54:23

what are you would like

54:25

to have said now at least miss it

54:27

isn't obvious to me at all that

54:29

your theory of identity is

54:31

going to serve as a function that

54:33

you assume it is

54:35

not psychologically sophisticated

54:37

enough it's not sociologically sophisticated

54:40

enough you can't insists that

54:42

people play a game

54:44

that don't know how to play especially

54:46

when you also don't out a player except

54:49

to say that it exists

54:51

the

54:53

this sounded the issue was you

54:55

know a lot of us is externalized

54:58

because we're such social creatures

55:00

then everyone has weaknesses would you

55:02

know you're gonna

55:04

the a generate along

55:06

your weakest

55:07

the axis

55:08

and if you're forge and you will feel to control yourself

55:11

because some of your weakness will

55:13

be precisely that inability to control

55:15

yourself on that access like maybe maybe

55:17

have a biological predisposition the alcoholism

55:19

and know you have three shots of vodka

55:22

and twenty minutes and you're like on top of the world

55:24

you know there are people like they

55:26

often have extensive family history of alcoholism

55:29

a biological

55:31

phenomena are you can tell

55:33

if you're like that if it's really difficult for you to stop

55:35

drinking once you step it's a real

55:37

warning signs and means alcohols means great

55:40

drugs for you subjectively speaking

55:43

you know hopefully when

55:45

you drink too much other

55:47

people are going to start telling you

55:49

like know era

55:50

that's actually how you start diagnosing

55:53

alcohol abuse are you getting in trouble

55:55

with the law is interfering

55:57

with your intimate relationships is it interferes

55:59

with your ability to hold a job

56:02

it means that the the addictive substances

56:04

starting to dominate your life in a in a manner

56:06

that's counterproductive and other

56:08

people there

56:10

ensure that you stay

56:12

there wasn't enough so that you don't deteriorate

56:14

entirely you're lucky if you have

56:16

that and stop part of the point

56:18

i'm making that chapter and i would say in both

56:20

books and in maps of as well

56:22

is this the primary obligation

56:25

other

56:26

parents

56:27

is to serve as a proxy

56:29

for the social and the natural world

56:32

but let's say the social world why

56:35

while because you want to train your child to

56:37

be not only acceptable socially

56:40

but highly desirable social

56:43

and the reason for that is this by

56:45

the time they're about three three to four

56:47

ease the transition period

56:49

they're going to be spending more time

56:52

being socialized by their peers

56:54

then by you and that will increasingly

56:57

be the case as they develop and if you haven't

56:59

made them

57:00

if you haven't

57:01

encourage them during

57:03

judicious attention to

57:06

be socially desirable they're

57:08

going to be rejected by their peers and then

57:10

they fall farther and farther behind the developmental

57:12

trajectory

57:14

so

57:17

yeah that's probably how you help them with their

57:19

identity they can see the sort of person

57:22

that that everyone else always

57:24

play the game they chose and

57:27

it's honoring that they that they they

57:29

play whatever game they want for themself like

57:31

feared like your granddaughter she can play pocahontas

57:34

and you know if she wants to have

57:36

that identity as pocahontas great

57:38

the to demand and to shame

57:40

anybody who decides to call her l

57:43

for example

57:44

no this doesn't know any better knows that name

57:46

that's where i think it gets really that's where the

57:48

ugliness of it comes out like the the

57:50

freedom to express ourselves how we want

57:53

then softening the edges of

57:55

this of this thing and just recognizing

57:58

uk you know if you're if you know some by they

58:00

really prefer to be called something i was like

58:02

when i was thirty i changed my name from

58:05

one of my middle name was crests in the other middle

58:07

name was aubrey my legal name was michael

58:10

and all a big mess decided to take my

58:12

grandfather's name arby there was

58:14

a window there were my identity changed

58:16

while these the name from krista

58:18

aubrey and so lots of people would

58:20

call me chris an hour just gently say or

58:23

in i'd a change my name to aubrey and

58:25

but whatever i wouldn't like causa it wouldn't be

58:27

a screeching halt to the to

58:29

the day or anything like that a new just be gentle

58:31

encouragement but i didn't take personally

58:33

cause i wasn't attached to that

58:35

identity as the end all be i

58:38

attached to i'm an infinite being

58:40

of us point a locus

58:42

of consciousness that is embodying

58:45

a certain identity as this transitory

58:47

time is my own personal spiritual beliefs

58:50

and that to me is the solid ground right

58:52

so these other things the says this is

58:54

how we play this is the way is rhonda

58:56

said this is us being god and drag

58:59

right like this is us playing out our

59:01

role then it's on my opinion

59:03

it's fine to play out another role but

59:05

the moment you get so attached to

59:07

that infinitesimal aspect

59:09

of self and build these walls rather

59:12

than opening up the community that's

59:14

where i think it it leads to

59:16

the result as he said it leads to a result

59:19

that you're not actually in

59:22

trying to and trying to do this

59:24

changes identity

59:25

wow that's what i saw as a danger i would

59:28

say is that was the his use of force

59:31

which which is what happens you put

59:33

something into law it's forces

59:35

not only implied but relatively

59:38

in or stated relatively explicitly and

59:40

then there was the with the in a paucity

59:43

of identity and the interference with with

59:45

free speech and i

59:51

i don't think that those

59:53

concerns were

59:54

misplaced i think that

59:56

there's something about that issue that central

59:58

to

59:59

the continue

59:59

hold your war and is a war some

1:00:02

degree what constitutes identity the

1:00:05

we should have a more sophisticated notion

1:00:07

of identity

1:00:08

it it it's it's just not helpful otherwise

1:00:11

part of what i was doing constantly a clinical psychologist

1:00:13

was helping people craft an

1:00:16

ever more sophisticated identity

1:00:19

and what you want you want

1:00:21

to have the kind of identity that makes people

1:00:23

line up to want to play with

1:00:25

you

1:00:26

and if you ever have to use force

1:00:28

well that's

1:00:30

forces

1:00:32

inescapable but if you have

1:00:34

to use force to get people to comply

1:00:36

it is a sign that you're not playing

1:00:38

a very good game now maybe you don't

1:00:41

you can think up better one there's nothing that's going

1:00:43

to work state of emergency mighty know because

1:00:45

we allow governments to use extra

1:00:47

force during a state of emergency

1:00:50

that nobody thinks that's optimal

1:00:52

so if people won't play

1:00:55

because you're inviting them then the game

1:00:57

isn't configured very well and it's very

1:00:59

unlikely to be stable

1:01:01

rule is mikhail a safer

1:01:04

do not hide unwanted things in the fog

1:01:07

right , this is the opposite of hiding

1:01:10

unwanted things in the fog this is confronting

1:01:12

them and that's a

1:01:14

variant of st george in the which

1:01:16

is an unbelievably

1:01:18

pervasive mythological and

1:01:20

artistic motif and perhaps

1:01:23

also the oldest story that

1:01:26

we have all the stories

1:01:28

that we know our of king george and

1:01:30

er st george's a drag hey

1:01:34

amy about this one

1:01:37

difficult because

1:01:40

they're a with so many items

1:01:42

who

1:01:45

that's some looks separated although

1:01:47

the woman should be separated

1:01:50

the

1:01:51

so what i've done is

1:01:53

using a fabric fabric of

1:01:55

house and because his

1:01:58

the planning to the same direction and

1:01:59

the connecting point

1:02:02

capital should be separate

1:02:05

i wouldn't worried about the

1:02:07

council of the dark sky

1:02:09

and the dragon working

1:02:12

man

1:02:14

sure

1:02:16

forty five degrees young right absolutely

1:02:18

so the mass of the dragon and the massive the sky

1:02:21

are balanced against the figure

1:02:23

, the writer and it gives

1:02:25

it a cemetery across the

1:02:27

the

1:02:28

from the top left corner

1:02:30

to the bottom right corner he has zero

1:02:32

line there symmetrical across that axis

1:02:36

and the castle to be there and the dragon

1:02:38

had to be there and the woman had to be there all those

1:02:40

elements are crucial and so

1:02:43

this is what you do when you don't hide things

1:02:45

in the fog you confront them and you free

1:02:48

something of value as a consequence that's

1:02:51

that's it nuts

1:02:53

the most one of the most magnificent

1:02:55

discoveries of human beings that human beings

1:02:58

have ever made and images like

1:03:00

this are an attempt to make that conscious

1:03:02

to serve to serve to and they're

1:03:05

they're they're a guide to a particular

1:03:07

kind of action in the world the

1:03:10

voluntary confrontation with things you don't

1:03:12

understand that that you are afraid of and

1:03:15

the promise that something

1:03:17

the extreme value will emerge as

1:03:19

a consequence of that even though it looks dire

1:03:22

initially then can be mean

1:03:25

this is no joke because if you

1:03:27

go off to fight dragons is always the possibility

1:03:29

that you'll die or worse and

1:03:31

that's a real possibility it's it's not

1:03:33

something that can be hand waved away with any of

1:03:35

psychological nonsense

1:03:40

let's say

1:03:42

rule three do not hide

1:03:44

unwanted things and the five maybe you could

1:03:46

tell us a bit about that when jordan sounds interesting

1:03:51

well you know there's this friday and idea of

1:03:53

repression rights and that sort of

1:03:55

you do something wrong and you

1:03:58

decide you're gonna put that away the

1:04:00

feel more do have it you put it away and you don't

1:04:02

you know you force it down into the unconscious and

1:04:04

it's browse around down there causing trouble

1:04:08

that isn't exactly that can happen

1:04:10

i think but that is generally

1:04:13

the key to what makes

1:04:15

what freud was trying to get out with repressed

1:04:17

and so clinically and practically balance

1:04:20

what what it's more reasonable

1:04:22

to think about it as a form of voluntary

1:04:24

inattentiveness

1:04:26

so let's say i'm

1:04:29

i used this example in the book let's

1:04:32

say you phone find yourself irritated

1:04:35

at your wife

1:04:37

when she's showing some attention to

1:04:39

enable

1:04:40

you in a bad mood because

1:04:42

of that you

1:04:45

know you're the bad mood and you notice it

1:04:47

but

1:04:48

the do

1:04:48

though there you you can have

1:04:51

discussions with people anything while i'm not

1:04:53

going there and the reason you're

1:04:55

not going there is because it sort of surrounded

1:04:57

by negative emotion anger defence

1:04:59

this and all that and you know this something

1:05:02

under the surface that hasn't been made explicit

1:05:04

and it's if you delve into it would cause

1:05:06

a lot of trouble

1:05:08

you know maybe you'd figure out what was wrong

1:05:10

but it would be a lot of trouble for that's the for

1:05:13

you you

1:05:15

react in a way that you don't want

1:05:18

the let's take one step

1:05:20

backwards you're acting

1:05:23

why because if you want to get

1:05:25

what you want

1:05:26

you want to get what you desire well

1:05:29

perform the rocks then you don't get what you desire

1:05:31

you don't get your wife's attention let's

1:05:33

say i'm

1:05:36

maybe you're trying to pick up someone in the barn

1:05:39

keep getting we've asked well

1:05:41

, read the rebuff

1:05:44

the kind of

1:05:45

right you don't know why you being

1:05:48

rebuffed if you

1:05:50

rebuffed fifty times in a row

1:05:52

there's going to be a lot of information and all those

1:05:54

rejections and you you're

1:05:56

gonna have to save for a long time

1:05:59

about what's the

1:05:59

patterns are that those rejections

1:06:02

and then you going to have to extract from that

1:06:05

a picture of why you inadequate

1:06:08

or why the opposite sex is corrupt

1:06:10

and and deceitful and and prejudicial

1:06:12

which is the wrong conclusion to and

1:06:16

you build a picture of your own inadequacy

1:06:18

and then you have to notice how far as you

1:06:20

are some the ideal as a consequence

1:06:23

of that inadequacy and then you have to metaphor

1:06:26

there are some you see you can extract

1:06:28

out information that would solitary

1:06:30

from for the development of your personality

1:06:33

from doing pattern that analysis of repeated

1:06:36

failures reiser you

1:06:38

can just not do that i

1:06:40

mean that was that relates very much

1:06:43

too

1:06:44

you know when you when you talk about internal vs

1:06:46

as sarah locus of control let's

1:06:48

suppose i have failed three times

1:06:51

and businesses so to to prove to

1:06:53

link back to your story about the

1:06:55

rejections of the bar but in this case

1:06:57

i'm an entrepreneur who has on

1:06:59

three separate occasions and three

1:07:01

separate business endeavour's

1:07:04

if i am someone who is

1:07:06

going to attribute each of those failures

1:07:10

it's god it's because consumers are

1:07:12

dumb as because they're not there was sufficiently

1:07:14

ready the market wasn't ready from it's from

1:07:16

it's a those failures externally

1:07:19

i am removing the possibility of

1:07:21

having a feedback loop of learning

1:07:24

where i attribute some of those

1:07:26

failures to scissors that i made so that

1:07:28

when i go to my source business endeavors

1:07:30

i actually don't implement some

1:07:32

of the reasons why failed so in a sense

1:07:35

your attributes and style internal

1:07:37

vs external could be a

1:07:40

contributing to you either going into

1:07:42

the fog or getting out of the fog direct

1:07:45

i think that's of this that's a useful

1:07:47

way of looking at we can talk about internal

1:07:49

versus external too so

1:07:52

if you have an extra locus of control you

1:07:54

view yourself as sandwiches

1:07:56

be acted upon right you

1:07:58

you know that can be used

1:07:59

oh and many many circumstances so because

1:08:02

you might say for example but this entrepreneur

1:08:04

that he should take failure base rates

1:08:06

into account three phases is

1:08:08

nothing maybe you need it doesn't say

1:08:10

years before you've gathered enough information

1:08:13

to to to a successful

1:08:15

entrepreneur right so that's where

1:08:17

extra locus of control is actually useful

1:08:20

so you can't necessarily tell to begin with

1:08:22

which one is going to works if you use

1:08:24

an extra locus of control the problem

1:08:27

then is that you're never driven to change

1:08:29

anything about your fossilized

1:08:31

ideas and the old dad saying

1:08:33

that is operating your thoughts never gets

1:08:36

dethrone

1:08:37

that's a problem

1:08:39

the are limited if you have an internal locus

1:08:41

of and it always operates the

1:08:43

probability that you're going to get depressed is

1:08:45

quite high because every failure

1:08:47

is your full strength you know it might

1:08:49

be indicative of a fundamental flaw

1:08:51

so it's really to get this balance

1:08:54

right as a matter fast as

1:08:56

i mean of course you would know this senses and you

1:08:58

dispenser that it's the up when i tell

1:09:00

my students about this fundamental attribution

1:09:03

error of successes internally

1:09:05

and attributing failures as certainly the

1:09:07

only group that doesn't suffer that

1:09:10

glowing rosie fundamental attribution

1:09:12

her are depresses rice and

1:09:14

and i'm not sure if the recess now has said it's clear

1:09:17

that whether it's because

1:09:19

i start off with non

1:09:21

rosy view of the world that

1:09:23

causes me to be more likely to be depressed

1:09:25

or as it's one i am and about of the

1:09:28

person that glows he goes

1:09:30

away with the resolve this is amazing

1:09:32

this okay so this is a good place

1:09:34

to talk about something else is somewhat or to temple

1:09:37

every time you lunacy generally

1:09:41

speaking

1:09:42

in a surprise

1:09:44

there's no than this is technically

1:09:47

that which is not surprising contains

1:09:49

no information is mostly a definition

1:09:51

of

1:09:53

okay

1:09:54

surprises you it means it violates

1:09:56

one of your presuppositions okay

1:09:59

so then

1:10:00

means that presupposition has to

1:10:02

die

1:10:04

and it and i mean day because it's

1:10:06

virtually instantiated a

1:10:08

biological

1:10:10

let's say to neural structure or a neural

1:10:12

patterns i didn't care it's still a structure even

1:10:14

if it's a pattern is be the interconnections between

1:10:16

neurons that thing as to be

1:10:19

is trying to dig into that be extinguished

1:10:23

exactly how mention has to be extinguished

1:10:25

us a very very difficult like

1:10:28

if you get rebuffed when you try to pick someone

1:10:30

up in a bar might be because you are the most

1:10:32

undesirable creep in the

1:10:35

world

1:10:35

that's true for one person

1:10:38

somewhat less so it might

1:10:40

be you ah hopefully you don't

1:10:43

lead to that conclusion immediately and you start

1:10:45

with smaller presupposition that the

1:10:47

might be some externalisation enough on

1:10:50

in any case any little part of you

1:10:52

every time you are surprised by some

1:10:55

a little part of you has to die some

1:10:57

part of you have to die sometimes

1:10:59

that marriage

1:11:02

and presuppositions or higher

1:11:05

so

1:11:08

essentially irrelevant to your continued

1:11:10

actions and summer crucial so

1:11:12

a crucial one madison you're planning the future

1:11:15

and you married

1:11:16

okay the existence of your wife

1:11:19

is a critical presupposition to

1:11:21

you future plans were

1:11:23

many of them and so if if your relationship

1:11:26

becomes endangered or her life is put

1:11:28

in danger than that it's going to be very

1:11:30

impactful because her

1:11:33

absence is going to destroy a huge chunk

1:11:36

of your

1:11:37

your mouth of the

1:11:39

right

1:11:41

the price we pay for learning is to die

1:11:43

little bit

1:11:45

did the trick is to gnaw die

1:11:47

to mush right and

1:11:49

that's so i think he was alfred north

1:11:51

whitehead said that you know we have let her ideas

1:11:54

done instead of off that's the purpose

1:11:56

of armstrong though we can hit her idea of

1:11:59

them up

1:11:59

needs to be built rebirth

1:12:02

to some degree because your ideas are you

1:12:04

and they're actually alive too

1:12:06

and so when one of your ideal size

1:12:08

that's a good of you might be a big

1:12:10

part of you and it actually on

1:12:12

fun sometimes might be

1:12:15

such a big part of you

1:12:16

did you actually can survive

1:12:19

series and that's a traumatic

1:12:21

experience it's like it's blown up so

1:12:23

much as you please opposition network this

1:12:26

you might not be able to get yourself

1:12:28

back up and going again if you look

1:12:30

at sea

1:12:31

genesis of depression major

1:12:33

depressive disorder it's very

1:12:35

very frequently the case that the first

1:12:37

episode

1:12:39

you brought on by some major

1:12:41

trauma like cent of genuinely horrible

1:12:43

event and then the nervous system

1:12:45

is somewhat compromised after that and lesser

1:12:47

offence to produce an equal

1:12:49

the phone

1:12:51

oh

1:12:54

so if you're one of the high seas in the fabio

1:12:57

but sometimes when you have something have something father

1:12:59

just grows and then when done

1:13:01

some out it's trauma instead

1:13:04

having an argument about slowly

1:13:08

you end up in divorce court you know

1:13:10

debating who's going to have custody of your kids

1:13:12

for the next ten line

1:13:15

available on and on and pragmatic level

1:13:17

i just tell you that in my own a

1:13:20

marriage said the way that my wife

1:13:22

and i me we we rarely truly

1:13:24

frankly have any conflict by

1:13:27

the equivalent of your story about the

1:13:29

flirtatious sorry there's a haircut a

1:13:31

flirtatious neighbors if that were to

1:13:33

happen someone who doesn't let

1:13:35

things faster and meats and

1:13:37

so i will confront

1:13:40

the negative emotions that i'm ceiling

1:13:42

at the moment deal

1:13:44

with them then we had it out and

1:13:47

we move on as i'm very

1:13:49

very intolerant internal leads

1:13:51

to a an environment

1:13:54

of stress of pouting

1:13:56

this of turn it as is and

1:13:58

maybe it's part of my openness maybe the

1:13:59

my yes gregarious miss maybe

1:14:02

so i i can't sanctioned i

1:14:04

miss of his i'm angry you know

1:14:06

what i thought less divorces

1:14:08

negative emotion i mean you're you're

1:14:10

you're very enthusiastic you're obviously very extroverted

1:14:13

months how sensitive or negative emotion

1:14:15

so meaning that if i experience and i did of

1:14:17

emotion how how how catastrophic

1:14:20

will have beat for me

1:14:21

yeah

1:14:23

i mean i think i could handle it well

1:14:25

i mean probably the most negative

1:14:27

feedback that i ever can receive

1:14:30

is one that is created in my own

1:14:32

mind meaning that i am my worst

1:14:34

critic i am my worst right i

1:14:37

am a pathological perfectionist

1:14:39

so most of the

1:14:43

when i called the the looping thoughts

1:14:45

right the intrusive looping thought that

1:14:47

would constitute the majority of

1:14:50

my lived experience it gives a negative emotions

1:14:52

internal s stem from

1:14:54

me and point this or myself your

1:14:57

life was wondering because he for you

1:14:59

said you're someone who's intolerant of party

1:15:01

this and that sort of and that that

1:15:04

i'm like that to to the degree that

1:15:06

i engage in conflict it's

1:15:08

usually because i see something like

1:15:11

that happening and i want to get it cleared

1:15:13

up as as as as ice is that

1:15:15

might also be thrown a so so basis

1:15:18

you know so as of at least my

1:15:20

temperament operate that way i think oh

1:15:22

i can see where this going he doesn't

1:15:25

look good and other say something about

1:15:27

now than and if our dramatic

1:15:29

word i were going kind of a friday

1:15:31

and saying of leaking your back to try other than science

1:15:34

i would say that and and i'd i'd never

1:15:36

shared this publicly

1:15:39

in the the past

1:15:41

my home life with my parents was

1:15:43

such that my parents although they were married

1:15:46

for sixty years he got married

1:15:48

ninety sixty or there so both

1:15:50

alive had

1:15:53

an acrimonious with one

1:15:55

another and that there was a lot a

1:15:57

is not over hostility certainly

1:16:00

latent on there you know i used to

1:16:02

always joke that whatever all

1:16:04

the horrors that i experience and lebanese civil war

1:16:06

what was nothing compared to some

1:16:08

of the horrors of the conflicts between them which

1:16:10

wasn't always not as they were beating each other out that

1:16:12

there was this constant hostilities

1:16:15

and maybe in part because of that

1:16:17

i seek to exactly never

1:16:20

recreate that in my own home

1:16:22

and so you know i

1:16:25

my wife and i have a lot of public

1:16:27

displays of affection towards each other and i take

1:16:29

my god my children see

1:16:32

the love that my wife and i expressed

1:16:34

each other in a given day more

1:16:36

than the amount that i've seen my parents x

1:16:38

exhibit towards one another and fifty years and

1:16:41

so maybe that is part of the and powers

1:16:43

which is i lived that and i don't want

1:16:45

to replicate that so maybe as limited

1:16:47

as seems as seems so

1:16:50

the foggiest which created when you engage

1:16:52

in acts willful blindness when

1:16:54

your food know but you decide that you don't

1:16:56

want to beautiful