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1:17

Hello,

1:19

everyone. I'm

1:21

talking today with Alex Story.

1:24

borne in

1:25

France to an English academic. Professor

1:28

Jonathan Story and an

1:30

Austrian artist Heidi, Alex, grew

1:32

up in font and blue, France. where

1:34

he was expelled from three schools for

1:36

being turbulent. He

1:39

was then introduced to rowing by his

1:41

father to get some discipline Alex

1:44

left home at seventeen, moved

1:46

to the United Kingdom to pursue his

1:48

rowing ambitions and was an Olympian

1:51

in nineteen ninety six and

1:52

a competitor in the world championship in

1:55

ninety two, ninety four, ninety five,

1:57

and ninety seven were replaced in the top

1:59

ranks and

1:59

held the world record from ninety eight

2:02

for several decades.

2:04

Alex was then accepted at

2:06

Cambridge to study modern and medieval

2:08

languages He stood for parliamentary office

2:11

in two thousand and five, two thousand

2:13

and ten, and two thousand and fifteen in the poorest

2:15

parts of the UK. and

2:17

won the right to become a member of the European

2:20

Parliament for Yorkshire and the Humber

2:22

in two thousand and sixteen,

2:23

although he didn't take the seat. He

2:26

attended the NBA program at Judge Business

2:28

School in two thousand and fourteen to two

2:31

thousand and sixteen at Cambridge and currently

2:33

works in finance. as

2:34

head of sales at a US broker.

2:37

Alex also started writing

2:39

publicly in the aftermath of

2:41

the Black Lives Matter movement during

2:43

the COVID lockdowns and publishes

2:46

weekly in the UK and US press

2:48

for the express, the critics, Spectator,

2:50

Country Square magazine, National Review,

2:53

and

2:53

American greatness.

2:54

Today,

2:57

we're going to talk about a variety of

3:00

topics including Karl Marx

3:02

and John Maynard Keynes, Charles

3:05

Darwin,

3:07

and

3:08

Thomas Malthus, who originated

3:10

the hypothesis

3:11

that biological,

3:15

political act, biologically minded

3:18

political

3:18

actors used to justify the

3:20

claim that we are

3:22

suffering from an excess of population. And

3:26

so while the way we go with that

3:28

discussion. So very nice

3:30

to meet you, and I'm

3:32

looking forward to our conversation. It was my pleasure.

3:35

So we talked a little bit

3:37

about where we might want to start. If you had a bit of

3:39

a biographical -- Yeah. -- account

3:42

that will lead us the topic today.

3:44

So I'm gonna turn it over to you. Yeah.

3:46

So I'm a father

3:48

four. My first son

3:51

has Down syndrome. when

3:54

something like that happens, things

3:56

happen and use

3:58

the world is revealed in a

3:59

slightly different way.

4:02

when Joshua was born

4:04

and we took him home,

4:07

the

4:07

initial question

4:09

that anybody and everybody asked was didn't

4:11

you know. And initially,

4:13

I just said, well, we didn't

4:15

know. But it kept coming

4:18

back and back and back. And then

4:21

eventually, I just thought, what are you saying?

4:24

If we had known, what would do

4:26

you what do you think we ought to have done? And

4:29

essentially, what they were saying is it's

4:31

unusual to have a a downs

4:33

baby. Of course, if

4:35

you had known, you would have had an abortion

4:37

or you'd have either bought it at the baby. That's the that's

4:39

the thinking process. And,

4:43

obviously, accidents do

4:45

happen been accidents sometimes can be

4:47

very good for somebody in the sense that

4:49

Joshua, I think, may be a much, much better

4:51

person than it was before, simply

4:54

because I

4:56

realized that in that

4:58

day, on the day that I learned

5:01

this about his condition,

5:04

I thought the

5:06

most important thing is living and

5:09

life, and it doesn't matter whether he goes to

5:11

Cambridge or not, and it doesn't matter whether

5:13

he can speak a few languages

5:16

and any of that

5:18

actually became irrelevant.

5:21

And as my wife was crying,

5:24

as she discovered this, I

5:26

tried to not cry because I am the

5:28

man of the family. it's really

5:29

important that I don't and I stay stoic

5:31

about these things.

5:33

But I said to her, look, he he's not gonna

5:35

be very good at maths. He's going to

5:37

be like his dad. He's gonna quite

5:39

clumsy. clumsy like his dad. There's

5:41

lots of things like his dad that he's going to be.

5:43

We will love him. And

5:45

I think that really brought

5:48

our relationship even closer.

5:51

And so this

5:54

discovery that suddenly my son

5:56

was the subject of speculation

5:58

about whether he ought to

5:59

remain alive or not,

6:01

made me think very, very profoundly

6:03

in my view, but perhaps not profoundly

6:05

because I'm thinking -- Mhmm. -- it felt profound.

6:08

Right. Right. Right. Because I had to really

6:10

go into the nooks and crannies of the

6:12

thinking process. So

6:15

this thing, this question,

6:18

which keeps coming back even now, I

6:21

think was the seed of some

6:23

kind of thought process that started.

6:25

And that led me to the

6:27

field of Eugenics and

6:29

the study of Eugenics, or at least

6:32

trying to understand where

6:34

this ideology comes from. You

6:36

said you said that

6:38

one of the consequences of Joshua's

6:40

birth is that you became a better

6:42

person -- Yeah. -- and that

6:44

your relationship with your wife deepened.

6:46

Yeah. And you mentioned that that was the

6:48

benefit of the

6:50

of the trouble, let's say, or the unexpected

6:52

occurrence. And so in

6:54

what way do you think

6:56

more particularly, in what way do

6:58

you think having

6:59

had this experience, having had

7:02

your

7:02

son has made you a better person

7:05

and why specifically, do

7:07

do you see that it steepened your

7:09

relationship with your wife?

7:10

Because suddenly I had to man up.

7:13

and I had to take responsibility. And

7:16

I had to I had to be

7:18

there for her, you know. And

7:20

for for her in a way that was different than

7:22

before. Absolutely. So what why what made

7:24

it different? Well, because we were

7:26

both together. and this

7:28

was our family that we

7:31

were building. And everybody

7:33

in that family would be

7:35

my responsibility. Mhmm.

7:37

And so is this something like the

7:39

determination to take on a joint challenge?

7:42

Exactly. And actually when

7:44

I heard that sometimes men

7:47

leave their wives because of

7:49

a birth like that. I was

7:51

appalled, but also I thought I'm

7:53

not going to be like I will be something I'll

7:55

be somebody else. And

7:58

so my life up to then

8:01

had been relatively carefree.

8:03

You know? Yeah.

8:05

I I was also extremely lucky

8:07

because I fell in love with

8:09

my wife on the day I met him. and I

8:11

married her just a few weeks later. And

8:13

so And how long had you been

8:16

married before the Not very

8:18

not not very long?

8:20

we were married perhaps a year and

8:22

a half. I see. So this in some

8:24

sense was the first significant joint

8:26

challenge or challenge that you had in Well,

8:29

actually,

8:29

actually, the

8:32

first one was the discovery that I knew

8:34

nothing about a lot when

8:36

she had a a miscarriage.

8:39

Mhmm. Completely she had to. And

8:41

I just stood helpless. she

8:43

was screaming in pain. And I wasn't really sure

8:45

what to do. And I I felt and

8:47

I realized how little I knew about

8:49

things and I had

8:51

no idea about what to do and I

8:54

apart from trying

8:55

to say empty words, you know, to

8:58

try and So you felt at that point

9:00

that there was something missing from the way you were

9:02

looking at the world? No.

9:03

No. It's just that I was my point

9:05

is simply that when my wife

9:07

and I tried tried to have a child, the

9:09

first two were miscountains. And I just

9:11

I realized how little I knew

9:13

and how helpless

9:16

I was to help her. And so

9:18

when Joshua was born, the third

9:20

birth, I

9:21

was determined to

9:24

be a good old fashioned,

9:26

old school father. And

9:28

I thought that that was much much more important

9:31

than what people thought about me or my

9:33

political views or anything else. but

9:35

I

9:35

think it did determine a great deal

9:38

about how what I became afterwards.

9:40

Mhmm. And and so when you said

9:42

you wanted to become an old fashioned old

9:44

school father, as a consequence

9:46

of this

9:47

the

9:48

challenge, what how

9:51

did that manifest itself to you. What what was it?

9:53

You said you stroked to take on more responsibility,

9:55

and you made that clear to your wife. Yeah. And

9:57

you also regard the decision to take on

9:59

that responsibility as something that was transformative

10:02

-- Yeah. -- morally, but also intellectually,

10:04

which is what we're going to get into. Yeah. And

10:06

what did it mean to you to become an old

10:08

fashioned, old school father? as

10:10

opposed to, let's say, as

10:12

opposed to what?

10:13

Well, but I I mean, the the thing

10:15

that did rescue me was sports

10:19

I got kicked out of a few schools

10:21

mainly because I was always challenging

10:23

authority. And I think if you speak to a lot

10:25

of my peers, In fact,

10:26

one of a friend of mine David, I won't say

10:28

his surname because he might be

10:30

upset. Fine. Fine. Fine anyway.

10:32

But I was with his

10:34

surname and his son asked a

10:36

question about me and we've

10:38

been drinking a lot of really good

10:40

wine at the time. and

10:43

David just said, Alex

10:45

is just unmanageable. And I

10:47

think that this is this is something that had led

10:49

me to all into lots of problems

10:51

at school. And

10:53

my father did the old fashioned

10:56

thing of saying, you need some

10:58

boundaries, you need a routine,

11:00

you need to be able to work

11:02

through a process in order to go from

11:04

a to b. You need to be able to

11:06

become good at something. Right.

11:08

So so the adoption of a disciplinary

11:10

frame Exactly. And so and and and

11:12

and rowing is brutal in that sense. I

11:14

mean, we don't ride to one another, but we lift

11:16

a lot of weights. We train two or three

11:18

times a day. it's complete and

11:20

utter dedication. And this is, you

11:22

know, once you once you get onto that

11:24

treadmill, what happens is

11:26

that your your body

11:28

changes very quickly. Your

11:30

the perception of yourself changes

11:32

as well. You become big and strong

11:35

and fit. and

11:36

also because you you don't do any of the

11:38

things that your peers might be doing

11:40

such as taking drugs or drinking

11:43

wine or getting drunk at parties. All

11:45

of this is established

11:47

or all these land mines are

11:49

avoided. Mhmm. So why why did you do

11:51

it? If you were unmanageable and you were a

11:53

disciplined problem in school, Why were

11:55

you willing to subjugate yourself to the

11:57

discipline of rowing? And Not because of glory.

12:00

And I

12:00

think glory is important. And I think we live in

12:02

a in a glory free world. fact,

12:04

when the

12:05

when the queen's passing, what was interesting

12:08

was something that we started to hear

12:10

beautiful and sublime language

12:12

again. and it's in contrast to

12:14

the very clunky bureaucratic language

12:17

that we now hear more and more. Mhmm. This

12:19

idea of glory for me has always mattered. when

12:21

so when your when your father proposed

12:24

the ruling as a as an

12:26

option -- Mhmm. -- were you familiar

12:28

with it at all? No. No. Not really.

12:30

No. In fact, I was surprised that my father had

12:32

been a row, but then it turns out that my

12:34

grandfather was a row as well, and it also

12:36

turns out that story is a

12:38

is a is a Norwegian name, ST0

12:40

double r, means big in Norwegian,

12:42

and I'm six for eight. Mhmm. And

12:44

we have Norwegian Origins. And I

12:46

think if you trace the story family

12:48

back, we our

12:49

vikings. Mhmm. So I think we were

12:51

always boat people

12:52

in a Mhmm. But

12:55

now I That's quite a transition to go

12:57

from somebody who's making trouble like

12:59

that to someone who's disciplined in athletic.

13:01

And you said So how did you how

13:03

did you perceive opportunity

13:05

for what you call glory? Like,

13:07

why why did that back into you? Do you think?

13:09

And was it related to in

13:11

some ways to that impulse that had

13:13

driven you to cause trouble to begin with?

13:16

Maybe

13:16

I got into trouble

13:18

very often in I got

13:20

into fights for a lot. And

13:23

I think

13:23

the idea of being physically

13:25

strong mattered to me at the time and

13:27

it's something really good control. I

13:30

was impatient in certain things, but I like

13:32

the idea of of feeling

13:35

myself growing to a man because I started at

13:37

the age of thirteen fourteen. and that

13:39

transition, you

13:40

know, I was six foot I

13:42

was six foot when I was twelve. Mhmm.

13:45

And so I

13:47

going to the gym. In fact, spending

13:49

some time with my dad at the gym was

13:51

important. So all

13:53

of this was was

13:56

not subjugation. It was the desire to

13:58

do it. It was the desire to be

14:00

strong, and it was desire to push

14:02

myself and to prove to others.

14:03

that that child

14:06

that was always in trouble could

14:08

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14:10

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15:09

Mhmm. So Yeah. Well, it's a

15:11

it's a very it's a lovely way of

15:13

conceptualizing the idea of the regulation

15:16

of aggression, so to speak. Because

15:19

generally, in our

15:20

culture, we presume that

15:23

that a child's self

15:25

expression is limited in some

15:27

sense by force by the external world

15:29

and so that there's an intrinsic conflict

15:31

between the motivational

15:34

impulses of the child on the

15:36

hedonistic front, let's say, and also in

15:38

relationship to aggression and the force that

15:40

society applies to

15:42

inhibit that. But

15:44

it's a much better

15:45

idea to

15:46

conceptualize that in the optimal

15:49

sense as a kind of integration rather

15:51

than as kind of suppression. And

15:53

so you could say if you were a child, you

15:55

were physically larger. And so that is one

15:57

of the predispositions to a more.

15:59

That is one of the factors that predisposes

16:01

to a more aggressive temperament. because

16:03

if you're aggressive and

16:05

little, you tend to get pounded flat. But if

16:07

you're aggressive and big, you tend to be more

16:09

victorious. And so it maintains itself.

16:11

But But then you might say, well,

16:13

what do you do in a

16:15

situation where you have a child who's

16:17

motivated at least in part by aggressive and

16:19

competitive urges? And the answer

16:21

should be that you sublimate that

16:23

into something that utilizes

16:25

those capabilities on the

16:27

competitive front, let's say, but also

16:29

disciplines and harnesses them. And the thing that's

16:31

interesting to me about your story is that for some

16:33

reason, you you laid out some of the answer to

16:35

that, you were also willing

16:37

to abide by that disciplinary routine.

16:39

So did you start enjoying going to the gym

16:42

rapidly? Like, how did that all occur? The weather the

16:44

gym was again,

16:46

it's an act accident and a happy one.

16:48

My father walked into a

16:51

French Olympic gold

16:53

medalist who'd been a fencer.

16:56

of all things.

16:57

And the gym

16:58

had opened just close to

17:00

where we lived. And my

17:03

father got to speak to him.

17:04

And the

17:06

the the coach was great. And he he What

17:08

makes it great? Well, because he was

17:11

very he was very helpful and he was he

17:13

also had Olympic gold medals around his

17:15

name. Right. He was very, very

17:17

considerate. and understood

17:22

that there are certain things that

17:24

in terms of the training

17:26

programs were set and they

17:28

were. they

17:28

were they were really clear.

17:30

The he then he's the one

17:32

actually that told my

17:34

father about the Rolling Club.

17:36

that I should be able that I should I should

17:39

join. Mhmm. So there was this this

17:41

fatherly

17:44

nature to the to the to

17:47

the coach and

17:48

also it enabled me to spend some time with

17:50

my father because my father was an academic

17:53

and at a at

17:55

Incyad. and he would have worked sixteen to eighteen hour

17:57

days, and he was always writing. And

17:59

in those

17:59

days, smoking smoking the pipe in

18:02

his office. But

18:04

So

18:05

you had some good paternal role

18:08

models, both in your father, especially

18:10

in relation to the rowing and to his

18:12

encouragement of you, but also with regard to

18:14

this coach. Yeah. So then it also that

18:16

seems to indicate to me too that

18:18

when you decided to take on the

18:20

challenge jointly with your

18:22

wife and you because you mentioned that

18:24

you wanted to be an old

18:26

school father that you already had

18:28

a model for what that might look like in mind -- Mhmm. -- in

18:30

in some deep sense because you would have

18:32

been socialized optimally

18:34

when you were a teenager even under

18:37

relatively fraud conditions

18:39

given the behavioral issues at that point.

18:41

But what's interesting is

18:44

when

18:44

people talk about privilege, I

18:47

I do claim that I have privilege,

18:49

and my privilege is that

18:51

my parents are still

18:54

together. And that

18:56

the rock on which the story family was

18:58

built was solid. And

19:01

that's something that I think is

19:04

crucial when I was

19:06

political in Northern England in

19:09

Wakefield, for instance.

19:10

most of the trouble that you could see

19:13

stemmed from the fact that lots of boys and

19:15

girls had no

19:16

father figure anywhere near

19:19

the house. Right. And this is one of the

19:21

things that we might be able to cover later.

19:23

But there's a strong

19:25

Marxist tendency what

19:27

we're witnessing is the implementation of Marxist

19:30

policies. If you read the

19:34

communist manifesto, the most

19:36

important point in

19:37

the book is the

19:38

destruction of the family. It's the

19:41

number one one thing of

19:43

the book. nothing else

19:45

matters as much as that. And that's

19:46

standing in the way of the establishment of

19:49

the communist utopia. Exactly. But

19:51

it's the it's it's the

19:53

destruction of the family,

19:55

as Mark says it,

19:57

is important because it

20:00

means We

20:00

want people to have no past. We

20:03

don't

20:03

want traditions. We don't want people to

20:05

be able to remember certain things.

20:07

because -- Right. -- you would moderate the traditions to

20:10

rebuild to build the man of the future.

20:12

It's not mounded that the culture

20:14

revolution. When he had his gang of young people

20:16

go around and destroy while

20:18

a tremendous amount of of

20:21

of of China's immense past

20:23

-- Mhmm. -- in an attempt to wipe the

20:25

slate clean. which meant wiping a

20:27

lot of people off the slate by the way

20:29

to wipe the slate clean so that the

20:31

new Utopian man could

20:33

be built. Yeah. And that that's also allied with that

20:35

modern notion of radical social

20:37

constructivism, which is that we're only

20:39

what our socialization makes

20:41

of us. There's no intrinsic nature.

20:43

And so the idea, for example, that there

20:46

might be what

20:48

there might be multiple reasons

20:50

for the absolute necessity of

20:52

the nuclear family as the bedrock to

20:54

civil society that's just an arbitrary supposition

20:56

as far as the Marxists and the construct radical

20:58

constructivists are concerned. Yeah. And so

21:00

Yeah. That's so, I mean, that we saw it in the

21:02

Black Lives Matter manifesto. That's

21:05

the key point was the destruction of the Western

21:08

family structure. But

21:10

so my privilege is, if I have

21:13

any, is that my parents

21:14

were there, and it

21:16

wasn't always easy because in those days

21:19

when you were kicked out of

21:21

school, There

21:21

was a a nineteen twenties star

21:24

punishment that awaited me. I

21:26

mean, at

21:27

home. Yeah. It was really

21:29

scary. Now remember, because

21:30

in those areas, it was just one phone.

21:33

And we had some gravel in

21:35

front of the house. And me

21:36

coming back knowing that

21:38

I'd

21:39

misbehaved the teachers

21:41

I'd already called. Mhmm. It wouldn't be welcome

21:44

back at the school. And then I

21:45

heard my mother pick up the

21:47

phone doll, my my father's

21:49

office. Mhmm. She spoke quietly and

21:51

I could hear on the first floor my father

21:54

shouting down. Mhmm.

21:56

and that was petrified. So why do

21:58

you think you have a positive

21:59

attitude toward your parents given that they

22:02

were because you can

22:03

make a case that you know, the

22:05

school, you had multiple

22:08

disagreements with the school, and it's an

22:10

open question in such cases. whether

22:12

it's the school's fault for being arbitrary

22:14

and not dealing with you properly or if it's a

22:16

consequence of your misbehavior and they report

22:18

you to your parents, your parents don't take

22:20

your side precisely or that's one way

22:22

of looking at it. There's a there's

22:24

punishment associated with that and some

22:26

fear, but you speak of your parents

22:28

with respect. And so why is

22:30

that? Why why do

22:32

you think that despite your

22:34

fear

22:35

as a consequence of

22:37

the apprehension of the consequences of

22:39

your misbehavior, you still have this

22:42

overlying sense of the support and

22:44

integrity of your parents. Well,

22:46

that's

22:46

because I think they were right.

22:49

I accept that III

22:51

behave badly. I I don't blame the score.

22:54

and I don't blame my parents. I blame

22:56

my own behavior. And

22:57

I think one of the interesting things about

23:00

the life we live in is that the

23:02

person who takes responsibility his

23:04

action is always more pleasant to

23:06

meet than somebody who keeps blaming somebody

23:09

else for his for his words.

23:11

It's also hard to change other people. Exactly.

23:13

And it's but it's also easier to blame

23:15

somebody else. And I think the introspection,

23:17

and and this is the

23:19

sense of

23:21

self discovery, you know, questioning what

23:23

you've done and questioning how you

23:26

did it. And, you

23:26

know, what impact you might have had through your

23:28

words and your actions onto others, I

23:30

think, is is is a crucial aspect of

23:32

humanity. Oh, that's that's the confession, that's

23:35

the prerequisite redemption and attainment

23:37

fundamentally? Well, it's is. I mean, that's the,

23:39

you know, it's it's You have to know what you did wrong

23:41

and you have to come to terms with it because how are you

23:43

gonna change it otherwise? Exactly. and

23:45

and you have figured exactly what you did wrong, and then you

23:47

have figured out how how you might change

23:49

that if you could. And then you have to be

23:52

willing to When when you started growing, when you started to

23:54

discipline yourself, were

23:56

you also do you think attempting

23:58

to atone for your misbehavior? Were

24:00

those things tangled together? No.

24:02

I had

24:03

There's a very romantic side

24:06

to the way I look at the world.

24:09

So I'll give you an

24:11

example. IIII had a job interview

24:14

when I was

24:14

much younger. And

24:16

the person asked So what'd

24:18

you what what would you really like to be?

24:20

And I said, is that a real question?

24:22

The guy goes, yeah. I said, I would love to

24:24

be the night. on

24:25

a on a white horse with a

24:28

shining armor. Rescuing

24:29

how old were you? I was about twenty

24:31

five. Oh, rescuing rescuing

24:34

damzills and and distress. So I

24:36

didn't

24:36

get the job. But

24:40

but

24:41

I just thought I'd let it

24:43

rip. I'm just not I don't need to be to

24:45

be Where do you think that image came

24:47

from for you?

24:48

I don't know. It's an interesting one. I mean,

24:50

I I started reading a lot about medieval history. And

24:52

the more I do read about

24:55

medieval history, the the more

24:57

intricate and beautiful it becomes because there are lots

24:59

and lots of things in the tapas

25:01

of history that are worth looking at. Mhmm. And so it's not

25:03

just that once you once you get involved

25:05

in that kind

25:07

of of universe, it

25:09

drags you all the way to

25:11

the beginning of time in a way,

25:13

because you keep thinking that

25:17

that one

25:19

occurrence in, let's say,

25:21

eleven ninety was actually based

25:23

on a precipice position on a

25:25

on a on a philosophy -- Mhmm. -- for

25:27

five hundred years before, and then you start

25:30

to to dig into this really,

25:32

really incredibly rich soil, that

25:34

sound history. Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. Well, you

25:36

can see the lingering attraction of such

25:38

things in popular in the grip

25:40

of the popular imagination by

25:42

Well, you could say the Harry Potter series,

25:44

which has a real medieval element to

25:46

it, and also by a series like

25:48

the Lord of the Rings or the Hobbit, I mean,

25:50

that's a fantastically popular modern

25:53

myth, and it's set in

25:55

a medieval

25:55

ethos in some sense. And that's also

25:58

associated with that

25:59

that idea you had that seemed

26:02

attractive to you about glory, which is also kind of

26:04

an an anachronistic concept. Well, it's it's

26:06

it's it's, but I think I

26:08

don't know if it is. In fact, anachronism is

26:10

an interesting word that we if we have time, we

26:12

could perhaps Yeah. It wasn't a

26:14

criticism just No. No. No. No. No.

26:16

I mean, but it's an interesting term

26:18

because where the queen's passing

26:20

-- Mhmm. -- all those people who were saying that

26:22

the monarchy was an an

26:24

an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an an agonism. are

26:26

now proven completely wrong.

26:28

Mhmm. It's it's not an anachronism.

26:30

The simple reason that it lives

26:32

It lives its dynamic. It grows She

26:35

helped ensure that it didn't become a mirror in

26:37

acronyms. Where where exactly? But the point is that

26:39

that's what families do. And of course, the

26:41

monarchy has a very simple is

26:43

a very simple concept to

26:45

understand my son, Josh, understood that when she

26:47

died, Charles would

26:49

become king -- Mhmm. -- if you

26:51

try to explain the French constitution to him,

26:53

you'd find it much more difficult. Right. Right.

26:55

So she embodied something that echoes very deeply

26:57

for everyone. Well, absolutely. And it's a very

27:00

simple. She's the top of the

27:02

family. That's essential. Oh, she's

27:04

the she was the matriarch. Right?

27:06

And a

27:07

lot of people, a

27:09

very small number of people have

27:12

been talking about the

27:14

demise, the eventual demise of

27:16

of of the monarchy. But

27:18

actually, you

27:19

realize that the the support is very, very,

27:22

very thin. Mhmm. And what you realize is it

27:24

is not just on this

27:26

topic. It's on every single

27:28

topic that they push through. Mhmm.

27:30

And the reason for this is in my view

27:32

is the the fact that it's not anchored

27:34

in anything. It's anchored in theories. And

27:37

the theories that that they then try

27:39

to impose these

27:41

these theories on a very complex

27:44

reality. They're always wrong because the one

27:46

thing that they don't do is try to understand the

27:48

humanity. Well, that's why they

27:50

deny that the a priority structures

27:52

exist because that enables them to remain

27:55

invisible. You know, if if I start with the

27:57

presupposition that you

27:59

and

27:59

your

27:59

family are nothing but

28:02

what would

28:02

you call a

28:04

relativistic manifestation of

28:07

the arbitrary social contract, then there

28:09

is nothing to under can just replace

28:11

that with another arbitrary construct. And

28:13

the the danger in that, I would

28:15

say, apart from the fact that it's

28:18

just It's incorrect from on

28:20

multiple grounds, including biological

28:23

grounds, and much more than that.

28:25

but it also justifies your

28:27

use of power, and that might be the

28:29

underlying. It's so interesting because the Marxist

28:31

types tend to claim that power motivates

28:34

everything. And I always think about it as

28:36

more of a confession as an observation. It's

28:38

like, well, your ideology sets you

28:40

up such that your

28:42

tempted to use power because you believe

28:44

that people are infinitely malleable and they should be

28:46

made over in the image of your ideology.

28:48

And since you believe that there's nothing but

28:50

power that opens up the door for you to use to

28:52

obtain your whatever it is you're attempting

28:54

to do. Hypothetical utopia usually

28:57

results in the destruction of many people

29:00

instead. which indicates to me that maybe that was the point

29:02

to begin with. So okay. So back

29:04

if you don't mind, back back to

29:06

your son, you said and we delved into

29:08

that quite deeply that his

29:10

birth and your decision to take

29:12

responsibility for that, which I suppose

29:14

was being a knight on a white horse

29:16

for a damsel in distress. Let's

29:18

say, also catalyze an

29:20

an intellectual interest. Mhmm.

29:22

And you started becoming interested

29:25

in eugenics because of the

29:27

comments that people were making to you obliquely

29:30

about why your son was, let's

29:32

say, allowed to be born. And so

29:34

maybe we could track that a little bit.

29:36

Yeah. So I

29:37

think the

29:40

most shocking part of that

29:42

was when I was walking

29:45

with my son, he was only too very

29:48

small. And this woman came

29:50

along. And she said, you know that your son

29:52

will be a burden on the state?

29:54

Oh,

29:54

yes. And

29:55

Yeah. Well, you know, when the

29:58

Nazis started there before

30:00

they launched their full scale

30:02

genocidal movements, THEY

30:04

STARTED TO CLEAN UP THE MENTAL

30:06

INSTITUTIONS AND THE OLD FOGS HOMES

30:08

AND SO forth. ANY PEOPLE WHO ARE

30:10

IN LONG TERM CARE let's

30:12

say who were a burden on the

30:14

state and they definitely

30:16

regarded them as a burden on the state and they

30:18

further

30:18

pushed forward their

30:21

pregenocidal movement by

30:24

making the case that, well, not

30:26

only were these people a non

30:28

productive burden,

30:28

but their

30:30

quality of life was so

30:32

low that it was actually more merciful

30:34

to dispense with them altogether. And and

30:36

that really went -- Yeah. -- in a very serious

30:38

way, went out of hand very, very rapidly.

30:40

Yeah. People don't understand the genesis of

30:42

these sorts of movements, but that Like

30:45

nazi eradication policies

30:47

had their origin

30:50

in public health policy.

30:52

It's a great freight. Yeah. And it's

30:54

interesting to realize that

30:56

the the

30:57

Germans, in fact, considered

31:00

it a, if I'm

31:03

correct,

31:03

considered it the Eugenics

31:05

as a medical solution.

31:09

Mhmm. And that was in nineteen thirteens. So

31:11

I think the law was passed in nineteen

31:13

thirteen. So way before the the the

31:15

second law law. Mhmm. So

31:17

this concept already there and this

31:20

is the interesting thing that we

31:23

witness at the moment. And I think that's the

31:25

reason why son's

31:27

down syndrome, I think has been such an interesting

31:30

catalyst is the fact that we

31:32

seem to live in an era where

31:34

our betters and leaders whether

31:36

they're political or corporate are

31:39

increasingly anti human. Mhmm.

31:43

and you initially, you reckon it's a bit like the

31:45

blick in the matrix. You don't you you you

31:47

you you see something. you

31:50

wake you you wake up a little bit -- Mhmm.

31:52

-- and then you keep pulling on that string, and

31:54

then you suddenly realize that there

31:57

is this massive effort to try

31:59

and depopulate the

31:59

world. You know, Freud,

32:01

when Freud described

32:03

what came to be known as Freudian

32:06

slips, ex exactly the

32:08

observation he made is that he

32:10

listened to someone talking, there'll be a

32:12

disjunction in their speech. Something will emerge.

32:14

Right? If they say a noncommuter, or

32:16

they make a joke that's slightly off kilter and there's some

32:19

emotional awkwardness. There's something that

32:21

just doesn't flow and

32:24

freight and you learned

32:26

that behind that there was

32:28

an assemblage of complex

32:30

some personalities -- Mhmm. -- that

32:32

in some sense part of them had grip

32:35

control of the speech flow for

32:37

a moment. And then if you delved into

32:39

that, you'd start to see all sorts

32:41

of unresolved conflicts and

32:43

pathologies that characterize the per the

32:45

person's personality. And so that's

32:47

all there in a Freudian slip.

32:49

Yeah. And and people will reveal

32:51

themselves in some sense -- Yeah. -- and you

32:53

said when you were taking your son for a walk,

32:55

This woman was a woman who came

32:57

up to you and said that he would be a burden

32:59

on the state. It's like, you know, what

33:01

happens is the persona falls in a

33:03

situation like see something utterly monstrous

33:06

reveal itself, and then it snaps shut

33:08

again. And generally, what people will do is

33:10

they'll just they'll

33:12

just jump over that and continue on. But you

33:14

were you weren't able to do that because you had

33:16

this relationship with When it's yeah. Because it because

33:19

I think the reason why I

33:21

wasn't able to to move away from it

33:23

and ignore it is because it was a daily occurrence.

33:25

I mean, she was she was the worst

33:27

one. But But

33:28

again, this idea of didn't you know,

33:30

it

33:30

kept becoming a heavier

33:32

and heavier sentence for me to hear and

33:34

to to caring because because I kept

33:37

thinking you are

33:38

asking me whether I should

33:40

have, we should have bought it our son before.

33:42

We even gave him a chance to live. I

33:44

mean, that's the Right. Yeah. And you

33:46

had his, like, living, breathing, reality

33:49

right there to contemplate while all that

33:51

was occurring. No. I noticed when my

33:53

when my wife had when when we had

33:55

little kids, I lived in

33:57

Boston and when I was in

33:59

Boston with my wife, we were the

34:01

youngest parents we knew with the

34:03

oldest kids. And we were

34:05

young. My wife and I didn't start having

34:07

kids until our late twenties. Right. And

34:09

so we're already pushing the envelope in some sense, but in that

34:11

community at that time, we were still the youngest

34:14

parents with the oldest kids. And one of the

34:16

things I really noticed

34:18

was that MY WIFE

34:20

WAS OFTEN NOT TREATED

34:22

WELL, ESPECIALLY AT RESTAURANTS BUT

34:24

OFTEN SHOPS TOO WHEN SHE ENTERED THE

34:26

SHOPS WITH OUR LITTLE KIDS And our

34:28

little kids were very well behaved. And

34:30

and we had helped them learn how

34:32

to act properly, let's say, in a

34:34

restaurant. They didn't cause trouble. but they weren't

34:36

treated well. And I thought there's something very

34:38

pathological going on here because -- Yeah. -- there's my

34:40

wife and she's a perfectly pleasant person.

34:42

Although she has a

34:44

a bite, and that she has these children. They're very cute and they're

34:46

well behaved. And yet, when

34:48

she goes into a social situation

34:50

with them, She's

34:52

immediately treated like a second class

34:54

person, and she's treated

34:56

like she in some sense, she and the kids have no right to

34:58

be there. And I thought that's a hell of a way

35:00

to treat a young

35:02

woman with children. It's it's it's

35:04

not only wrong. It's the opposite of

35:06

what it should be. And that there's something

35:08

very dark lurking under there, which is also

35:10

associated with the reasons why we

35:13

were the youngest parents with the oldest kids.

35:15

That's part of that anti human proclivity

35:17

that you were that you were that you were outlining. So

35:19

you were experiencing this, you said, on a on a

35:22

relatively daily basis. Yeah. Yeah. Because that's a

35:24

lot in particular because

35:26

because it

35:28

was obvious. Interestingly enough, I couldn't see the year

35:30

downs. Right? So I

35:32

I just was the proud father of

35:34

a good looking child as I

35:36

saw it.

35:38

And I asked my friends, but can you see that he heads

35:40

down? Mhmm. And they went,

35:42

yeah. No. See,

35:43

because I

35:44

i figured i can't see can't see it.

35:46

and they used to think it was slightly mad or Right.

35:48

denial. You

35:48

know, but it wasn't it wasn't it wasn't it

35:50

was just a little bit. I can't see it really.

35:54

It's weird. Okay. So

35:54

how do you how do you and how

35:56

did you account

35:57

for that? I mean, obviously Well, not just thought

35:59

he was he was I

36:02

said to my wife, Nadine, who has to bend me. So

36:04

she's she's a saintry.

36:06

She's I said

36:07

to, you know, he's gonna be the

36:09

best looking down there's

36:12

ever been. It's gonna be a good looking one.

36:13

It's gonna look just like me.

36:16

And

36:16

she obviously cried. She didn't

36:18

laugh. I was hoping to try and make

36:21

Right. So you saw the you were

36:23

able to see the person behind the

36:25

syndrome, let's say. Well, I was

36:27

just I but but I I don't know. I mean, I I it's

36:30

I knew and I thought, actually, it's

36:32

amazing. He's quite he's he's looks

36:34

good. He's very strong. He's big.

36:36

He's he's fine. but

36:38

I couldn't and

36:40

I can't really explain why or

36:42

exactly why I couldn't see it. But

36:45

it was just an observation. And I used to, you know, by

36:48

when I used to ask my friends, they they they

36:50

probably thought I was I was perhaps

36:52

denial or if, you know, if you're a psychiatrist,

36:54

you might you might

36:55

go deeper into it, but I just How long after

36:57

he was born, do you say that you loved

37:00

him? Oh, by the as

37:02

soon as

37:04

I sorn. And so it's interesting that you were able to

37:06

manage that despite the

37:08

challenge,

37:08

let's say. Yeah. So

37:11

and I mean, it seems to me

37:14

that that's something that you're relating is that

37:16

you had a relationship with your son --

37:18

Mhmm. -- immediately that superseded

37:20

the condition. you know.

37:22

And then and you could think of that

37:24

as a form of blindness. That's one way

37:26

of thinking about it. But I've often

37:28

thought about with children, you know, because everyone thinks their child is

37:30

special. And of course, there's millions of

37:32

children and you don't necessarily

37:34

think that every child that you encounter

37:36

on the street is

37:38

special. And then you

37:39

might say,

37:39

well, are you blind about your

37:42

child? Or are

37:42

you blind to every other

37:45

child? And I would say it's the second that's true is

37:47

that you can actually see your children

37:49

-- Mhmm. -- but

37:50

you don't have enough mental energy or maybe enough

37:52

breath of character to see all other

37:54

children. And so maybe and I've thought too that love in some sense is the

37:56

grace of God, you know, is that if if

37:59

if you're in a

37:59

relationship with

38:00

someone that's characterized by love,

38:04

You see each other in

38:05

some deep sense and

38:06

you can't see other people like that because you

38:08

don't have the ability, but it's not like

38:10

the love is a delusion. It's the

38:13

opposite of love. Exactly. And that's the interesting

38:15

thing perhaps is the the

38:17

negation

38:17

of love. by,

38:20

you know, imposing and very smart people

38:22

who tell you that love is nothing but

38:24

a chemical. Yeah. Right. Right. Well, that's

38:27

And so and so And then and

38:29

it produces a delusion. They tell them the way

38:31

to look at things. I know. And of course,

38:33

for the robbing people, of is the most beautiful

38:35

thing, which is the the ability to emote

38:37

for somebody else -- Mhmm. -- and to

38:39

invest yourself in something. Mhmm. Well, and also

38:41

to live in

38:44

that condition, I mean, if you're if you're

38:46

around someone that you love and that love defines the relationship,

38:48

there isn't any better

38:50

thing you can do And

38:52

so then to minimize that, to call it some sort

38:55

of biological or biochemical aberration, which is the worst

38:57

form of unconscionable reductionism

39:01

is to reduce the highest

39:03

possible goal to something that's nothing

39:05

but, like, a trivial consequence -- Yeah. --

39:07

some underlying materiality.

39:10

It's polling. And it's it's really demoralizing. Oh, yeah. Because

39:12

the the the thing that elevates

39:14

everybody that

39:16

enables you to

39:18

sacrifice for for the greater, you

39:20

know, good of your family or whatever it

39:22

is is that notion of love. It's it's

39:24

what gives you the

39:26

ambition, it gives

39:29

you the motivation to

39:31

do greater things.

39:32

And

39:35

the once you start to get

39:37

into that thinking process, you realize just

39:39

how established in institutions

39:43

this idea of lack of love

39:46

has has

39:47

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40:54

And

40:56

so, and I think that's the that, again,

40:58

it's the denial of the

41:00

human being, and it's it's the

41:03

heart of stone versus the heart of flesh. In order to

41:05

be a good human being, you don't go

41:07

through a tick box at exercise.

41:10

Mhmm. You have to be you you have to

41:12

emote for the other person. And this

41:14

reciprocity is essentially

41:17

has been dismantled. it's no longer, you know, so that

41:19

you love your neighbor,

41:20

as you love your son,

41:23

you you treat

41:26

everybody equally. everybody

41:28

has worth. Now all of these

41:30

things is AAA reciprocal.

41:32

And I think that's the beauty of

41:34

the old

41:34

religion that we've lost. the the

41:36

new religion, which I know

41:38

that just just this is a bit of

41:40

a sidebar, but not really. Yeah. So there's

41:43

a Dutch proinatologist, friends to

41:46

all. who is a brilliant primatologist. And along with Richard

41:48

Rengam, those are probably the two

41:50

taught primatologists in the world. And

41:52

Rengam has been studying chimpanzee behavior for

41:55

decades at the Arun zoo and also in the

41:58

wild. And there's this

41:59

idea. I had a graduate

42:01

student once who

42:03

and he's now

42:03

a business calling you mind. Very smart guy.

42:06

Doesn't not

42:06

doesn't say much. But when he

42:08

says something, he's thought about it for like ten

42:10

years. Mhmm. And he thinks all the way to the

42:12

bar because he's also an engineer and he told me

42:14

once that I should stop using the term dominance hierarchy. And

42:16

it took me quite

42:18

a back because

42:21

I

42:22

understand

42:24

and believe that social animals

42:26

organize themselves into hierarchical

42:29

structure. and I'd never really considered the implications of

42:31

the term dominance hierarchy. And

42:33

he said, there's a Marxist

42:36

element to that terminology that you're not taking

42:38

into account. And I said, well, what do you

42:40

mean? He said, well, it's predicated on the

42:42

idea that the fundamental

42:45

process that arranges the hierarchies of social order is

42:47

the expression of power. And I thought, oh my

42:50

god. That's true. And I thought

42:52

really that that that strain of

42:54

Marxism had had mated biology to such a

42:56

degree that that becoming an axiomatic

42:58

presumption was really shocking to me. And

43:00

then I started talking about

43:02

hierarchies of competence and recently

43:04

of hierarchies of of voluntary play.

43:06

Now do all. And and

43:08

this isn't just an arbitrary re

43:12

configuring of my thought. It was a man named Yukpanczep who

43:15

studied play behavior in rats. Mhmm. And

43:17

he showed quite clearly that if

43:19

you paired juvenile rats

43:22

together and allowed them to play because they wrestle, that

43:24

in the first contact, the

43:26

bigger route could win over

43:29

the smaller route. ten percent weight advantage

43:31

would be enough to guarantee victory. So if you just studied one

43:33

play about, you could derive the conclusion

43:36

that the

43:38

bigger stronger and more dominant animal, one, and

43:40

the play was based on domination. But

43:42

he paired them together repeatedly, and this

43:44

is key to the issue of reciprocity.

43:47

He paired them together repeatedly, and and rats

43:49

live in social groups, so they

43:51

interact repeatedly. Once they have

43:54

established that initial

43:56

hierarchy of of ability,

43:58

let's say, in the wrestling ring,

44:00

it's incumbent on the little rep to invite

44:02

the big rep to play. But the

44:04

big rat,

44:04

if the big rat doesn't let the little rat win,

44:07

at least thirty percent of the time

44:09

across repeated boats,

44:09

even though he could win every

44:12

single time. he doesn't allow

44:13

the little rat to win thirty percent at the time, the

44:15

little rat will stop asking him to play. Mhmm.

44:17

That's a stunningly brilliant

44:20

observation. And then the wall

44:22

has shown you know, you have this notion of the alpha chimp.

44:24

Right? And everybody has kind of a crickger in

44:26

their mind of the alpha chimp. It's like

44:28

chest bumping.

44:30

Yeah. Playground

44:30

bully, thug, rises to the top, has

44:32

preferential sexual access, and thus

44:34

is more reproductively fit. And

44:37

DEWALT has taken out idea

44:40

completely apart. Mhmm. It's simply not

44:42

true. The first thing he's

44:44

demonstrated or one of the things he's demonstrated

44:46

is that Some chimps

44:48

do rise to positions of

44:50

sexual predominance and

44:53

social authority through the use of

44:55

physical intimidation.

44:55

Mhmm. But they tend to have short

44:58

lived rules.

45:00

Yeah. Their

45:01

troops tend to be very fractious and

45:03

emotionally unstable and and rife

45:05

with conflict, and they tend

45:07

to meet a very sudden

45:09

and violent end. Mhmm. Because if they ever weaken, then two

45:11

of the chimps that they've

45:13

intimidated will band together and tear

45:15

them into pieces.

45:18

and he's documented that quite continually. And then he showed too that

45:20

in many of the troops that he studied, sometimes

45:23

the smallest male has the

45:25

highest social status particularly

45:27

if he's

45:28

extremely good at reciprocal interactions

45:30

and peacemaking, and he showed

45:32

that the stable alphas are

45:35

the most reciprocal animals in the troop, male

45:37

or female, and that they

45:39

cultivate reciprocal social relationships

45:42

and mutual grooming constantly and track their friendship networks

45:44

and are extremely reciprocal. And so

45:47

the wall has shown like

45:49

banks have been that the true

45:52

basis of stable social

45:54

organization

45:55

is

45:56

is reciprocity -- Yeah. -- fundamentally.

45:58

and consent as well. Voluntary. Yeah. Exactly.

46:00

And then Voluntary Risk Products. And

46:02

this this may if we go back to sports,

46:04

that's the

46:06

voluntary investings, investment

46:08

of your life in

46:10

a in a discipline. It's voluntary. You want to

46:12

do it and because you think you can get

46:14

something out of it. When the the consent bit

46:16

is an interesting

46:17

one because we

46:20

we live in an era of revelation

46:22

in my view. things have happened where

46:24

suddenly, you know, we've opened a world

46:26

for those to for those

46:28

who want to see. That

46:30

that the

46:32

idea that we were living in

46:34

a on in a system

46:36

where consent had needed to be solved

46:38

-- Yeah. -- actually has been dismantled. how

46:42

did we see it? Now in the UK, we had

46:44

Brexit, for instance, it

46:46

took six years. We still have these

46:48

backlogs. But

46:49

what you see is more and

46:51

more people on the remains side of

46:53

the argument

46:54

denying the

46:56

vote nearly took place. or attacking

46:58

those people who voted in the wrong

47:00

way. Mhmm. The idea and the notion

47:02

that you should seek consent

47:06

or consensus his completely bottom up. And

47:08

and the reason for this is because as we

47:10

said, humanity, if you

47:13

think about this the

47:15

the the

47:17

this antihuman nature, you

47:20

can say, in my opinion, it's

47:22

worth much more than yours. We are not the same. There is

47:24

no risk prosidy. What we No.

47:26

Well, and there's no reciprocity if the fundamental

47:28

basis is a power. Exactly. But that's

47:30

what that's the interesting thing about the the

47:32

alpha male. because I completely see and

47:34

I think most of us see that

47:37

without consent, there can be no stability.

47:39

Mhmm. You cannot, you know, you

47:41

cannot create stability. out of a

47:44

perpetual warfare. But the thing

47:46

about perpetual warfare is that it

47:48

enables diltons to

47:50

to think that something is changing.

47:52

So in other words, they require discord in order

47:54

to have meaning for themselves. So they

47:57

so hatred is a

47:59

powerful emotion that replaces everything.

48:02

That's the that's that's in my view

48:03

one of the things that we're witnessing at the moment

48:05

where you have

48:08

one group that's hoping. Doesn't matter how how how many they

48:10

all represent or the the numbers

48:12

they represent. Mhmm. But they are quite

48:14

happy to impose their worldview because

48:16

they're right So your so

48:18

your theory is something like

48:20

the the generation

48:22

of chaos produces a landscape where

48:24

the narcissists are more likely to thrive.

48:27

It's something like that. Yeah. Because it's it's a question

48:29

of self importance. IIII asked

48:31

my wife what because she's

48:33

from East Germany. and his Germany was

48:35

an extremely unpleasant place. Mhmm. Yeah. One third of the people there were government

48:38

informers. I know. And we

48:40

we don't

48:42

have the time to go through it

48:44

today, but some of the stories that

48:46

have had parents and my parents in

48:48

Montoreme were were quite interesting. Mhmm.

48:50

But the but the what she said is,

48:53

I

48:53

I just

48:55

want stability. Mhmm. In other

48:57

words, I don't want perpetual

49:00

revolution. I want stability. And if you

49:02

think about societies,

49:04

most people

49:04

most people And,

49:05

you know, most of us here want

49:08

stability, and yet what we keep being

49:10

sold is change. Changes,

49:12

apps is change is the only You

49:14

change, change -- And the faster, the

49:16

better. -- especially in the face of an

49:18

emergency. Exactly. And and so so

49:20

what what does

49:22

that lead it leads to a confusion. It can

49:24

only lead to confusion. If the

49:26

one thing that you go for

49:28

is change, And

49:30

if you completely disregard stability, stability

49:32

whether it's in in society

49:34

or in the fam within the family

49:37

sets up is the the the it's

49:40

the thing on which you build everything else -- Mhmm.

49:42

-- without It's even the thing within

49:44

which so, you know, there are two

49:46

fundamental personality traits. So there's five

49:49

dimensions, but they clump. And one

49:51

clump is stability, and the

49:53

other clump is plasticity. and

49:56

people are higher in to the artists

49:59

and the entertainers. And so they

50:01

are agents of transformation, but

50:04

both of those personality elements working in tandem

50:06

are necessary for let's call

50:08

it the most stable solution to

50:12

emerge across the longest span of time. And so have

50:14

the proper elements of ordered

50:16

stability with an interleaving

50:18

of necessary transformation as

50:22

the environment transforms, and your dreams sort of do this.

50:24

So imagine that during

50:26

the day when you're conscious and

50:30

awake, The parts of your brain that are responsible

50:32

for that operation are imposing a

50:34

stable order on the world despite

50:36

its aberration.

50:38

because, of course, you don't do everything, so you don't map everything accurately.

50:40

There's another part of your brain that sort of

50:42

keeps track of the things that don't fit

50:44

in. And then when you go to sleep

50:46

at night, you're you become more plastic and

50:48

your brain starts to try to make order

50:50

and sense out of the things that don't fit

50:53

in, and the monstrosity of your dreams

50:55

and what would you call

50:58

it the the the

51:02

cherubic and monstrosity like imagery

51:04

and dreams is an attempt to

51:07

aggregate those aberrations and

51:09

to start feeding updates slowly

51:11

into the system that regulates

51:13

stability. And the artificial intelligence

51:16

engineers have found

51:18

too that In order to build a system of apprehension

51:20

that doesn't collapse, you

51:22

need part of the system to

51:24

impose something

51:26

approximating regularity And then

51:28

you need a separate system to keep track

51:30

of deviations and slowly

51:32

update the first system because otherwise it will

51:34

precipitously collapse. Mhmm. And so there's

51:36

a balance And here's

51:38

another This is something very cool too.

51:40

So imagine that there

51:42

is a a balance that needs

51:44

to be maintained constantly between the forces

51:46

of stability and the forces of

51:48

transformation. And then it's an

51:50

open question

51:52

how much stability you need and how much transformation because it

51:54

depends to some degree on how rapidly things

51:56

are changing around you. Mhmm. And so

51:58

it moves with the situation.

52:01

And so you need to be able to mark

52:03

the shifting boundary. Well, one

52:06

hypothesis that I think is a very good

52:08

hypothesis is that The

52:10

spirit of play emerges when the

52:12

balance between stability and

52:14

transformation is attained properly.

52:16

Mhmm. Imagine so if you're in

52:18

a team, Yeah. Or you're

52:20

even competing against yourself, you're

52:22

pushing yourself to the edge of

52:24

transformation. Right? And if if you're

52:26

playing properly you're pushing

52:28

yourself so you're transforming as rapidly

52:30

as you can without

52:32

exhausting or undermining yourself.

52:34

And that manifests itself as sense

52:36

of deep and maybe as the sense of

52:38

deep engagement that you found when you decided

52:40

to start growing instead of misbehaving.

52:42

Yeah. Right? So you you had

52:44

you hit that point of optimal play, that also

52:46

catalyzed your development, and you could say that play is

52:49

reciprocal in the most fundamental sense.

52:52

and we to play

52:53

with other people or to play against yourself

52:55

in some

52:56

sense. And the sense of

52:58

meaning that emerges is a signal

53:02

that you've balanced the necessity for transformation

53:04

with a necessity for stability. Mhmm. It's

53:06

a lovely idea. Right? because it it gives it

53:08

gives some

53:10

real deep grounding to the notion of existential meaning.

53:12

Yeah. Mhmm. And I think also in order

53:16

to

53:16

the the the the stability

53:18

pre supposes something else

53:20

as well. So you you the

53:22

the modulation, the the the way that things

53:24

modulate. In other words, you've got new

53:27

technologies, new technologies don't certainly mean that

53:29

we as human beings have bets or Mhmm. But we have more

53:31

-- Yeah. We we have -- stands for trouble

53:33

and and this opportunity.

53:36

So it's not technology is obviously changes all the time. We

53:38

can see it, but actually the reason why

53:40

you and I can read

53:43

the odyssey and feel

53:46

for Helen and is

53:50

that we can read a story from

53:51

two thousand or three thousand

53:54

years and the the the arc of the story remains

53:56

the same. Mhmm. And the tragedies Well,

53:58

that's sort of the the fundamental religious

54:00

claim

54:02

in some sense is that the arc

54:04

of the story remains the same. Exactly. Yeah. And so there's the eternal and there's

54:06

the the the ephemeral. Mhmm. And that's

54:10

that's the So what

54:12

what is immovable is the

54:14

thing that I think a lot of our leaders

54:16

refuse to accept. So what they're trying

54:18

so in order to what's

54:21

what presupposes stability is the desire to

54:23

keep them something as it is. It's

54:25

your respect for something. if you keep

54:27

selling the change story, what you're essentially saying is that

54:29

you you want to dismantle

54:32

what is

54:34

there because obviously, in this particular

54:36

context because it's bad. Well, if you're low status, let's say,

54:38

within the current hierarchy, one

54:42

medication is to advance yourself according to the rules

54:44

of the current game. And and maybe

54:46

you can't because you can't fit

54:48

in, but maybe you can't because

54:51

you're unwilling to be able, let's

54:53

say, and then you take the path

54:55

of false presumption, and that's a

54:58

narcissistic path. But then you're best bet

55:00

under those circumstances to

55:02

destabilize things because that way you

55:04

destroy the order that that

55:06

implies that your

55:08

particular contribution or that there is a

55:10

contribution at all and and that implies that your contribution isn't

55:12

isn't appropriate. So I I hadn't

55:14

thought through exactly the idea that the

55:18

that the sowing of chaos by

55:20

what

55:20

would you say

55:21

overvaluing transformation

55:24

is another trick of

55:26

narcissists and psychopaths and

55:28

Machiavellians to gain the upper hand. But that's

55:30

highly probable. You know, I've seen,

55:32

for example, I've had a lot of

55:34

demonstrations levied against me a

55:36

lot. Mhmm. And some of them were very

55:38

intense and unpleasant. Like, very intense and

55:40

un and the intense and

55:42

unpleasant. And they were

55:42

often they were mounted against me by

55:44

people of the left, although that happens

55:46

on the right as well and has happened to people.

55:48

I know by by radical right

55:52

wingers. was very interesting for me as a clinician to observe the people

55:54

who are fermenting the

55:58

than the

55:59

protests.

56:00

Mhmm. In my case, a lot of

56:02

them were female. About

56:04

sixty

56:05

percent, probably seventy percent and

56:08

a lot of them were left wing activist

56:10

types, university students. And

56:13

so but intermingled with those

56:15

women were a handful of

56:17

men And in Toronto, in particular, in

56:20

Ontario, I I encountered a lot

56:22

of protests.

56:24

And at a number of the protests, the

56:26

same men showed up. Mhmm. And as a clinician, I could just spot who those

56:28

people were. I mean, like like one of them,

56:32

for example, stood with a girl

56:34

about two feet behind me at I think it was

56:36

University of Western Ontario It's

56:39

one of the worst protests that I was in, and they had an

56:42

air horn. And air horns are

56:44

plenty loud enough to damage your hearing. Yeah.

56:46

And they were blowing that air

56:48

horn right on the edge

56:50

of where it was damaging to me. Mhmm.

56:52

And I looked at the guy, the girl, well, I thought,

56:54

yeah. Well, you know, I don't know what you're up to, but

56:56

he was I could tell what sort of person he was. He was

56:58

there to upset things so he

57:00

could pray on the women in the crowd

57:02

who were

57:04

the protesters. So he was coming to

57:06

advance himself as well, I'm on your side. I'm one of you. And it's like, he

57:08

was one hundred percent a

57:10

predator. And I saw him and

57:12

his ilk and all sorts

57:14

of different demonstrations. And so he's

57:16

this sort of person. If he's

57:18

so chaos, it gives him that

57:20

opportunities -- Yeah. -- that he wouldn't

57:22

otherwise have because he had no competence -- Mhmm. -- in any real sense. was

57:24

he was a those sorts of men

57:26

are so appalling that you can

57:28

hardly even imagine what they're like.

57:31

unless you're very unlucky and have had the

57:34

opportunity to get to know someone like that. Mhmm.

57:36

So that notion that that

57:38

chaos can be sowed,

57:40

so the the

57:40

narcissists and the Machiavellians can flourish. That's

57:43

a very interesting idea and highly

57:45

probable. Well, you certainly see it

57:47

on the protest front.

57:50

So

57:50

Okay. So back back to your son, people

57:53

were questioning the ethics

57:55

of your decision to

57:58

to

57:58

continue with his life

57:59

essentially.

57:59

Yeah. And and and

58:02

and also questioning

58:03

you about

58:04

the blindness that you

58:06

had that in some sense enabled

58:08

that. And then then then then you started you said

58:10

that gave you an insight into something that was deeply

58:12

anti human going on underneath the surface.

58:15

Exactly. And so I

58:18

I like reading.

58:21

And so I

58:24

read

58:24

the biography of

58:26

Keynes and

58:26

the biography of Keynes is all about

58:29

Keynes

58:29

as the economist. There there are, you know,

58:31

some segues into his politics. He

58:33

was liberal or

58:36

labor. certainly of

58:37

the left. Can you fill people in

58:39

a little bit

58:39

tell us a little bit about Keynes and and

58:41

the figure, and

58:44

they They are Keynes positioned him. Occupy is now econ

58:47

Keynes is the is the

58:49

cornerstone of the the the

58:51

western economic thinking infrastructure

58:54

in a way because GDP is

58:56

essentially the way that – the way that we

58:58

calculate our wealth in –

59:00

across the world. is an

59:02

equation that he came up with. Mhmm.

59:04

So he stepped the matric. Yeah. He was extremely

59:06

he was extremely influential. it

59:09

was what was interesting about Keynes is that he

59:12

is the one that

59:14

negotiated the

59:16

reparations that Germany had

59:18

to pay with the French after the first World

59:20

War. So he was a very, very influential

59:23

character already in

59:25

the in the thirties and forties, he obviously

59:27

was an asset manager, but he was

59:29

also very involved in politics

59:32

and in the field of

59:34

think tankery. In other words, he was very

59:36

close to Mosley interestingly

59:38

enough, which he was our

59:40

fascist leader and Mosley

59:42

had been In the UK --

59:44

Exactly. -- in the UK -- Right. -- and he had

59:46

been unsurprisingly

59:48

a very prominent Labour

59:50

mp MP. And he

59:53

was also very interested

59:56

in in sociology. So he

59:58

was he was He was part of the

59:59

Bloomsbury group that was very close to the

1:00:02

fabian group and the fabian group

1:00:04

became the the labor

1:00:06

research group So And this

1:00:07

is Kane specific, not obviously Kane. No. No.

1:00:09

I'm just explain I'm explaining

1:00:11

the kind of groups that

1:00:14

you had. So so -- Yeah. -- cadence was part of the Bloomspeed Group, but it was

1:00:16

very close intellectually to

1:00:18

characters like Sydney Webb. Beatrice

1:00:21

Webb -- Mhmm. --

1:00:23

who burnage all these people

1:00:25

who were who were extremely influential.

1:00:28

In fact, the LSE is a

1:00:30

product of London

1:00:30

School of Economics. Yeah. Exactly. Mhmm. And

1:00:32

so when

1:00:33

you read the book,

1:00:35

it's nicely written and

1:00:37

obviously, it's substantial amount

1:00:40

of research. but the thing

1:00:41

that completely goes by the wayside is the

1:00:44

most important part of what Keynes

1:00:46

himself believed

1:00:48

about about society.

1:00:50

And you

1:00:51

can only see it in a

1:00:53

in a in a in

1:00:54

an asterisk. Is it a little asterisk?

1:00:56

And as I said, you read

1:00:58

the sentence and it says, John had to go to

1:01:02

this place and

1:01:04

the the slight description below

1:01:06

his, he went to speak to the Eugenic

1:01:08

Society. And, of course, that's a Friday and

1:01:10

slip. Exactly. And and so,

1:01:12

again, it's the the glitch in the

1:01:14

machine because you're you're going, hang on, it's nineteen

1:01:16

forty three. We have

1:01:18

a war

1:01:19

going on with somebody who's very,

1:01:22

very four. eugenics.

1:01:24

We are, at war, we're sacrificing

1:01:26

the entire British empire to

1:01:28

defeat that man, and that man's

1:01:31

cornerstone ideology is Eugenics.

1:01:34

Mhmm. What is somebody as substantial

1:01:36

as John Maynard Keynes

1:01:38

doing at a

1:01:40

Eugenics dinner? And it

1:01:42

turns out that he was the president of

1:01:44

the British Eugenic Society from

1:01:46

nineteen thirty seven to nineteen

1:01:48

forty four. And his last

1:01:49

speech at the Golton Institute, Golton

1:01:52

being the cousin of

1:01:54

Darwin. Importantly, Golton was

1:01:55

a a

1:01:58

very very prominent Eugenics

1:01:59

Eugenicists. In that

1:02:02

speech,

1:02:02

he stood up and he

1:02:05

said the most important a

1:02:07

field of social endeavor is

1:02:10

Eugenics. And

1:02:10

so so we should do a sidebar

1:02:12

quickly so that everybody understands what

1:02:15

the field of Eugenics proposes, and the

1:02:17

idea is it's an offshoot of a

1:02:19

pathological streak of Darwinism

1:02:21

that claims that it

1:02:24

it stems in some sense out of the

1:02:26

claim that this the fittest survives,

1:02:28

but then there's a twist on that

1:02:30

to imply that the fittest are therefore

1:02:34

morally and physically superior

1:02:36

in some moral sense. And

1:02:38

then, which which is not an implication

1:02:40

by the way of of

1:02:42

standard modern biological evolutionary theory.

1:02:44

And then more

1:02:45

of that,

1:02:46

you can identify

1:02:48

those who are fit, let's

1:02:51

say by looking at those who are

1:02:53

currently successful in society and you

1:02:55

can infer their moral

1:02:57

and physiological superiority and then you

1:02:59

can rank order people by that

1:03:02

superiority, and you could improve the

1:03:04

race by not allowing

1:03:06

those who were substandard let's

1:03:08

say, to use the Nazi terminology to

1:03:11

multiply. And that's technically wrong from

1:03:12

the perspective of evolutionary

1:03:14

biology because it's a

1:03:18

tenant of modern evolutionary biology that you

1:03:20

cannot select

1:03:23

for fitness.

1:03:25

So you can select for a given attribute and you

1:03:27

can presume that that attribute is associated

1:03:29

with fitness, but you have no there's

1:03:31

no justification whatsoever

1:03:34

whatsoever for that claim because what constitutes

1:03:36

fitness in some real sense

1:03:38

varies unpreductible

1:03:40

unpreductively

1:03:42

unpredictably as the underlying landscape transforms,

1:03:45

and so

1:03:46

there's no basis

1:03:47

for Eugenics claims

1:03:51

in modern in the tenets of

1:03:53

modern evolutionary biology. But that

1:03:55

didn't stop hypothetically

1:03:58

biologically oriented thinkers who

1:04:00

were saying follow the science -- Mhmm. -- to lay

1:04:02

forth a Eugenics movement

1:04:04

that did capture much of the left wing

1:04:06

and the right wing in very many ways.

1:04:09

all throughout from about eighteen

1:04:11

ninety to about nine well,

1:04:13

till nineteen forty five. Well, actually, I'd

1:04:15

go much further than

1:04:18

that. eugenics is now the

1:04:20

is now the

1:04:21

core

1:04:22

home of

1:04:23

a modern societies.

1:04:25

I think

1:04:28

it's Eugenics has seeped through. Don't

1:04:30

forget that Keynes was one of the

1:04:32

the the drivers of the formation of

1:04:34

the United Nations and

1:04:36

giving the pound of Sterling's

1:04:40

supremacy to the American

1:04:42

by allowing the

1:04:44

dollar to be the

1:04:46

only currency pick to gold,

1:04:48

all the other currencies in the world would

1:04:50

have to translate or

1:04:52

exchange their their currencies into dollars

1:04:54

and then from dollar to gold.

1:04:56

And that's a really important point. So

1:04:58

in other words, he was already going for this

1:05:00

idea of one global government. And there are some really interesting

1:05:02

books that you can read. I'll send them

1:05:04

to you. Who is this so interesting?

1:05:08

one of them isurbanism and the empire.

1:05:10

And in

1:05:11

there, the

1:05:12

pamphlets states very quick very

1:05:16

clearly we start with national

1:05:18

socialism. We will then go

1:05:20

to international socialism. Mhmm. So this

1:05:23

idea that you consolidate socialism

1:05:25

at home nationally, and that's important because the national socialists

1:05:27

and the international socialists, the communists --

1:05:29

Mhmm. -- are essentially not

1:05:31

on different sides of the

1:05:33

of the equation. It's just a it's just a

1:05:35

progression. One is national and then it goes

1:05:38

into the international So

1:05:40

it's it's a progression towards

1:05:42

radical centralization. And and -- Exactly. --

1:05:44

and predicated on the idea of implicit superiority? Yeah.

1:05:46

Exactly. And it's it's and but

1:05:49

it's always done with the imposition. forces

1:05:51

always needed. Mhmm. And you can you can read everything's power, you know. So Well,

1:05:53

no. Well, that's right. And then if you if you

1:05:55

read my account for

1:05:58

instance, what happens is that

1:05:59

Adolph is very, very clear about his views.

1:06:02

You use

1:06:03

power to impose

1:06:05

to impose and you don't dwell too

1:06:07

much in the detail. That's what he says in his

1:06:09

book says, I I don't wanna be

1:06:11

criticized because of my policies. I

1:06:13

just want you guys

1:06:15

to understand the broad picture. Right. So so

1:06:18

in other words, it's a replica. Oh, yeah. Well, in

1:06:20

Hitler definitely led by inference

1:06:22

because if you look

1:06:24

at his statements, the statements of the sort that you

1:06:26

described, he would lay out a low

1:06:28

resolution vision

1:06:30

and Exactly. Insist in

1:06:32

some sense that other people fill in,

1:06:34

let's call them the gory details. Yeah.

1:06:36

Exactly. And so so the the

1:06:38

idea, when you start to think about what

1:06:40

it implies that booklet is so

1:06:43

interesting because they talk about the idea of free

1:06:45

trade as being an imposition on less

1:06:47

culture nations. And that book says

1:06:49

that China will have to

1:06:52

we will have to impose free trade on the

1:06:54

Chinese. It's nineteen o two at the at

1:06:56

the time because these people because

1:06:58

their culture doesn't hasn't moved on.

1:07:00

And therefore, because it hasn't moved

1:07:03

on, it's subject

1:07:06

to you know, Darwinian -- Mhmm. -- eradication. Exactly.

1:07:08

Mhmm. And so you've got so

1:07:10

so the reason why that's so important

1:07:12

is because if you then bring it

1:07:14

to the United Nations and what Keynes' view of

1:07:17

the world was? Yeah. So there's there's

1:07:19

a strange implication in that

1:07:22

phrase survival of

1:07:24

the fittest. Yeah. Because in some sense and this is

1:07:26

this is the case scientifically. The

1:07:28

Darwinian proposition is a tautology --

1:07:30

Yeah. -- because it really means

1:07:33

Those who survive survive.

1:07:36

Yeah. It doesn't mean those who survive are

1:07:38

most fit except in if you if

1:07:40

you gerrymandered the meaning of a

1:07:42

term fit. And you don't know what it means. Right? Well,

1:07:44

it changes too. Yeah. You know, so

1:07:46

so the way mosquitoes solve that

1:07:48

problem is Each mosquito

1:07:50

is not a lot of variability in mosquito

1:07:52

behavior as a consequence of socialization.

1:07:54

So mosquitoes have a lot of

1:07:56

off spring, you know, maybe who knows how many tens of thousands of

1:07:58

potential offspring per mosquito. And

1:08:00

there's some biological variability across

1:08:03

the set of offspring and

1:08:06

almost all of them eradicated before they reproduce. Otherwise, we'd

1:08:08

be knee deep in mosquitoes in no time.

1:08:11

But you can't predict a priority

1:08:13

which of the variants that

1:08:15

are produced by a mosquito pairing are going to be are

1:08:18

going to survive. You can't predict that without

1:08:20

running the process.

1:08:22

And so you cannot again, you cannot

1:08:25

define what's fit before it manifests itself. Yeah. And so

1:08:27

in some sense, the notion of the notion

1:08:29

of fitness was a it's

1:08:31

a bad verbal choice because

1:08:33

it implies something like moral superiority and there's or superiority even on biological

1:08:35

grounds and no there's no

1:08:38

evidence for a kind

1:08:40

of ethical

1:08:42

or value laden superior So

1:08:45

what's interesting about that if we start

1:08:47

to go deeply into this is

1:08:49

the is the fact that once you

1:08:51

once you start to repeat that slogan, the survival of the fittest,

1:08:54

all sorts of

1:08:57

politics.

1:08:57

Right. All sorts of things become

1:08:59

doable. The one thing that is removed is is

1:09:02

the emotional aspect

1:09:05

of of humanity because you can be

1:09:07

cast aside. Because if you don't survive, as

1:09:09

as you said, it's because you're not

1:09:12

fit. Mhmm. And so and

1:09:14

if you're not fit to survive, perhaps you shouldn't be allowed. Exactly. And that's what this this this is what

1:09:16

what happens when you

1:09:18

start looking into the thank

1:09:22

tanks of the fabian society from

1:09:24

eighteen eighty four to just our

1:09:26

Then they were precursors to

1:09:28

the modern socialist. Exactly. And

1:09:31

with the English they were marked as

1:09:33

socialist precisely. They were their own brand. Exactly. But the but the

1:09:35

template is the same. So Mucilini was

1:09:38

good friends with Lenin.

1:09:40

It's really important to realize

1:09:42

that he was the head of the

1:09:44

Italian socialist party and then he became a

1:09:46

fascist because he he was of the opinion

1:09:49

as was learning that you could

1:09:52

use power and force to take the

1:09:54

reins of government and catalyze the revolution.

1:09:56

Exactly. And

1:09:58

so, but Musanini himself says it as well, take nationalism first and then international

1:10:00

socialism. That's the way

1:10:02

we're going to

1:10:03

do it. And so

1:10:06

this idea of using regulation

1:10:08

and global laws in order

1:10:10

to impose on weaker states

1:10:13

is completely you

1:10:15

can see it now. there is

1:10:16

there there it's the

1:10:18

template was set, and it's been a process of

1:10:19

establishing through the

1:10:22

offices of these international

1:10:24

institutions a

1:10:26

a world which would

1:10:28

be governed centrally through the offices

1:10:30

of the United Nations or the

1:10:32

World Health Organization or all

1:10:35

these bodies. that strip you or me and anybody in this room of any actual

1:10:37

rights. And you could see it in places

1:10:39

like Austria where where the

1:10:43

the vaccine mandate was imposed. Mhmm. And suddenly,

1:10:45

when suddenly the state tells you

1:10:47

it is unconstitutional. but

1:10:51

we'll do it anyway. Mhmm. And the reason why is

1:10:53

because there's a there's a

1:10:55

scientific body of opinion that

1:10:57

says that you ought to

1:11:00

have drugs Yes. Those things. We and

1:11:02

a scientific body of opinion never says you ought. Yeah. As

1:11:04

soon as someone says that

1:11:06

the science says you ought They've

1:11:10

made the gap. They've made the leap from is to art. Yeah. And science concentrates on is on

1:11:12

art. And so the idea that

1:11:14

you can somehow blindly follow the science

1:11:19

AND ALSO THAT YOU'RE MORAL BY DOING SO IS ABOUT THE MOST

1:11:21

ANTI SCIENTIFIC PROPOSITION THAT THERE COULD

1:11:24

BE. YOU KNOW, IN THAT THE

1:11:26

COVID MANDATES AS WELL IN CANADA

1:11:28

HAVE recipitated what I

1:11:30

think will be a constitutional crisis there too. Yeah. Because Trudeau is being taken to court right now

1:11:32

on the grounds that his travel

1:11:34

ban, which had no scientific just

1:11:38

verification whatsoever, even by the admission

1:11:40

of the health personnel in

1:11:42

Canada that he attempted to

1:11:45

compel to produce a post hoc

1:11:48

scientific justification found that the

1:11:50

grounds for his actions were

1:11:52

so threadbare -- Yeah. -- and directed

1:11:54

towards ensuring his hypothetical electoral victory in the last

1:11:56

election, that they couldn't even fake

1:11:58

a scientific rationale post hoc when

1:12:01

they were demanded to by their

1:12:03

bosses. SO BUT CANADA IS IN SUCH ROUGHT SHAPE CONCEPTIONALLY AT THE MOMENT

1:12:05

THAT A SCANDAL OF THAT NATURE. I

1:12:08

THINK A SCANDAL OF THAT

1:12:10

NATURE IS SO PROPOSPEROUS TO CANADIANS

1:12:12

THAT they can't

1:12:14

even apprehend it. But I think the

1:12:16

the the what's really difficult is that

1:12:18

these scandals are coming thick and fast.

1:12:21

Yeah. Nothing changes. So the one constant that we were talking about, which has changed. The one

1:12:23

thing that is not changing is the

1:12:25

fact that these characters

1:12:28

who are intellectually

1:12:30

bankrupt. Are brazenly get out? Yeah. Well, this They

1:12:31

don't quite

1:12:33

change

1:12:36

all that. As soon as energy costs

1:12:38

hit mortgage rate levels in the UK, then that game is gonna

1:12:40

be up. Yeah.

1:12:43

Because it just won't a stay But

1:12:45

that's true and that's why we the the interesting thing is,

1:12:47

I mean, we we probably shouldn't spend too much time

1:12:49

on the political landscape in the UK

1:12:51

because it's complex. and

1:12:54

it's probably not that interesting in

1:12:56

the long term. But what's interesting here

1:12:58

is that some big things are

1:13:01

happening, which prove to

1:13:03

us to the observers that the current

1:13:05

the current leadership and thought the

1:13:07

current leadership structure and

1:13:09

the current thought process has led to

1:13:12

complete, has led us

1:13:13

or has been led by

1:13:15

people

1:13:15

who are

1:13:18

constantly constantly wrong. They're wrong in

1:13:20

everything they do. They're wrong in everything that

1:13:22

they say. Mhmm. But they're the wrongest.

1:13:24

vision. They're wrong every strategy. they're wrong in

1:13:27

their use of power. In particular, because what

1:13:29

we've seen in Europe

1:13:31

over the last, let's say, two

1:13:33

hundred years, is a desire through the fables.

1:13:35

It's interesting. I will I will send you

1:13:37

that book. Mhmm. It's very important. Fablesism in

1:13:39

the empire. What you

1:13:42

what you see is people despising people

1:13:45

who work for money. Yeah. Right. Right. People

1:13:47

the the markets aren't So

1:13:49

that's like the Dutch not

1:13:52

paying attention. attention to the farmers -- Exactly.

1:13:54

-- or the Trudeau government -- But that's evenizing the trucker. -- but it's deeply set. I mean, this and

1:13:56

the the reason why the fabians

1:13:59

decided to permeate the institution that's

1:14:02

the terminology that you you should perhaps keep in

1:14:05

mind when you read these books, the delineation

1:14:07

of institutions. So that's where the Long Beach --

1:14:09

Yes. -- institutions -- Exactly. -- that's the idea.

1:14:11

That's where the that's available? So so

1:14:13

it's really it's a it's a very interesting, a bit dry, but

1:14:15

it's an interesting book. And and then suddenly, what you

1:14:17

what you

1:14:18

see is that they notice very

1:14:20

quickly in the

1:14:22

early eighteen eighties that the working man doesn't vote for them or for their policy.

1:14:24

Right. Right.

1:14:27

And they're really said

1:14:29

that they really like this

1:14:32

chap called Israeli because Israeli

1:14:34

was a a very very

1:14:36

eridite small, funny, kind of And

1:14:38

if the working class is intractable and it's refusal to see its own best interests. Exactly.

1:14:41

And so so so

1:14:43

that's so that's part of

1:14:45

the process. So they decided we cannot win, but what we can do is become experts and through

1:14:47

our expertise, we go through

1:14:50

the channels and we enable

1:14:55

politicians to implement our policies because we will

1:14:57

advise them on the solutions. And that's

1:14:59

detailed out in yeah. It's in

1:15:01

it's in it's in a it's in

1:15:04

a book. And so

1:15:05

once you once you start to to look at these

1:15:07

things, you realize that the

1:15:11

the enemy of these

1:15:13

people is the person that says no to them. Yeah. So so so

1:15:15

you need force and you need

1:15:18

to to there

1:15:21

is no consensus to be had. And therefore, what we were talking about, which

1:15:23

is this

1:15:28

the this relationship

1:15:29

between you and me, this reciprocity --

1:15:30

Mhmm. -- this is a sign of

1:15:35

respect. -- you Absolutely. So so if we are

1:15:37

lot lots can change, technology can

1:15:40

change. But

1:15:42

if we as human beings, choose to that we are

1:15:44

the same -- Mhmm. -- in terms

1:15:46

of value before before god. Mhmm. If

1:15:50

we choose to accept that for for my actions, you might there's

1:15:52

certain things that they will have an impact

1:15:54

on you and vice versa. Mhmm. Then

1:15:57

we create a society

1:15:59

that actually is quite quite stable and

1:16:01

worth living in. If the moment you accept the

1:16:03

Fabian premise that there is

1:16:05

a small group of people who right

1:16:08

therefore

1:16:08

the others are wrong. Mhmm. That is the that

1:16:10

that's when you start to create a

1:16:12

a And that's justified

1:16:15

by reference to expertise. Exactly.

1:16:17

Mhmm. And so there is a there is a quote quote in the in

1:16:19

in the book where where one of

1:16:21

the fabian says, we

1:16:24

our aim

1:16:25

is to

1:16:27

make sure that when the

1:16:29

people come to

1:16:31

the barricades to to make

1:16:33

all the change the

1:16:35

constitutional changes to so that the moment they

1:16:38

come to the barricades, we will be able to crush them. In other words, you use

1:16:40

the constitution and the law,

1:16:42

you change them through the experts.

1:16:46

and you strip the

1:16:48

the masses as it were of their

1:16:50

of their frightening power. Once they

1:16:52

get to the barricaded too late.

1:16:55

That's the - that was the idea that

1:16:57

they were developing. And so all of

1:16:59

that becomes - I think with hindsight,

1:17:01

that's the reason why we live

1:17:03

in this era of revelation my So so

1:17:04

much if if if we choose to

1:17:06

see what what, you know, these discussions

1:17:08

and the where these

1:17:10

ideas come from and really just

1:17:14

try to to map them on today's world. We see lots and lots of strands

1:17:19

that lead from the

1:17:22

eighteen eighties to two thousand and twenty

1:17:24

two.

1:17:25

Do you have any sense?

1:17:27

You talked

1:17:28

to me before we started the

1:17:30

podcast about the entanglement of Cain's ideas

1:17:32

with those of Marx and Darwin and Malthus. Yeah.

1:17:34

And you talked about this profound antihumanism that

1:17:39

you saw manifested say in relationship to

1:17:41

your personal life because of the

1:17:43

existence of your

1:17:45

son Now, and we talked about

1:17:48

we took a pathway

1:17:50

through the notion that that

1:17:52

top down force is justified

1:17:55

by the existence of a a

1:17:57

privileged and fit elite with the rest

1:17:59

of the people, let's say, being

1:18:01

in some real sense necessarily expendable.

1:18:04

So I would like to

1:18:06

know how you think that the

1:18:11

Marxist ideas,

1:18:12

is the connection with

1:18:15

Marxism, the notion

1:18:17

that the masses need to be

1:18:20

transformed in their conscious apprehension by

1:18:22

the elites. Is that the fundamental

1:18:25

point of contact?

1:18:28

So the communist manifesto, both

1:18:30

by the way, Mindcamp and

1:18:32

the Communist manifesto say the

1:18:34

same thing. One of them is

1:18:36

one of them is we will

1:18:38

lead the revolution. There will be

1:18:41

a small group of

1:18:42

believers who will lead

1:18:44

this

1:18:45

world as or these people

1:18:47

to the promised land. So it's again the experts.

1:18:49

It's it's the the the reason why Marx is part of the picture,

1:18:51

in my view, or the

1:18:54

the the kind of the

1:18:56

the the ring as it

1:18:58

were -- Mhmm. -- is because

1:19:02

he sees humanity he sees humanity through

1:19:04

the

1:19:04

lens of something that actually doesn't exist, which is

1:19:06

class. I don't think that people see themselves

1:19:09

as part of a class.

1:19:11

They might have said it, they might they

1:19:13

might say in their speech because it's a it's a shorthand for, you know, if somebody is here, somebody

1:19:15

who's there. Mhmm. But actually, conceptually,

1:19:18

there is no such thing as

1:19:20

as as

1:19:22

a defined class -- Mhmm. -- and

1:19:24

you can see it in elections. I mean, lots

1:19:27

of politicians make mistakes and a mistake

1:19:29

they make is that they assigned somebody's

1:19:31

views about something on their political on

1:19:33

their supposition. Pre presupposits

1:19:36

consciousness. And this

1:19:38

presupposition leads them to to making the

1:19:40

wrong decisions or to be taken by surprise because the assumptions

1:19:43

they're made are not based on anything observable, but they're

1:19:45

based on their own delivery. You

1:19:47

could see that in IN

1:19:49

THE U. S. WITH THE DEMOCRATS SURPRISED THAT THE WORKING CLASS IS NO LONGER ON THE SIDE OF THE

1:19:51

DEMOCRATS. AND OF COURSE THERE TO BLAME

1:19:54

BECAUSE -- Reporter: RIGHT. Well,

1:19:58

you see this in Canada too. if the if the populace was just as enlightened as the leaders who were working on their

1:20:00

behalf, they'd

1:20:03

obviously be be supportive,

1:20:06

let's say, of Trudeau's radically socialist policies. Yeah. They're enlightened enough for that. Well, no. Of course, because

1:20:08

they've got they've got real droops

1:20:10

and real droplets as we know. I

1:20:14

I worked in a restaurant when I was a kid that was run

1:20:17

by a couple of small businessmen, a guy

1:20:19

who I worked directly for

1:20:21

his named Scottie Kyle, and Scottie was a rough guy. He

1:20:23

was about thirty two or thirty three. I was about fourteen. And he'd had most

1:20:25

of his teeth knocked out in fights. He'd been in

1:20:28

alcoholic for years. He quit drinking

1:20:30

about five years before I knew

1:20:32

him. unbelievably funny person and very,

1:20:34

very bright. And I was working for the socialists in my town at that

1:20:36

point when I was fourteen, and they

1:20:38

had a pretty good small business policy.

1:20:42

At that point in my province, Alberta, there

1:20:45

was one socialist and, like, two

1:20:47

hundred conservatives. That was it.

1:20:49

And the socialist was an old labor leader,

1:20:51

and he's actually a pretty good guy. In any case,

1:20:53

the people voted for him in this small town,

1:20:55

not because he was a socialist, but because

1:20:57

he was a good guy. In any case, the socialist,

1:20:59

the new Democratic Party, had a pretty good

1:21:01

small business policy. And so but

1:21:04

the guy I worked for and the

1:21:06

owner of the rest Ron, who was also a working class guy.

1:21:08

They didn't have anything to do with the socialists.

1:21:10

And I asked, Scottie, one day, I said,

1:21:12

why in the world

1:21:14

don't

1:21:15

you and and can? Support the

1:21:17

NDP. They have way better small business policy. And you're a small

1:21:19

business. He said, yeah. But we don't wanna

1:21:22

be a small business. said,

1:21:24

people

1:21:24

vote their dreams, not their reality. Yeah. I thought there

1:21:26

was so bloody smart, you know. Yeah. And I

1:21:28

think that's -- Yeah. -- and that's

1:21:31

part of the issue that's problematic

1:21:33

with regard to class consciousness is because a lot of people

1:21:35

who are in the lower strata, let's say, of the socioeconomic

1:21:39

hierarchy, don't identify to

1:21:42

use that horrible word. Yeah. With that strata,

1:21:44

they have aspirations and if not for

1:21:46

themselves, for their children, and they would like

1:21:48

to set up a world where the successful

1:21:51

can thrive Partly because they would like their children be successful. And then, so

1:21:53

that's a great reason I never forgot

1:21:55

that. And then, about the same time,

1:21:57

I'd be reading George Orwell, and

1:21:59

Orwell talked about the

1:22:02

fabian types -- Mhmm. -- a

1:22:04

lot, even though Orwell had some socialist sympathies being what

1:22:06

would you say the avatar for the working thoughts? The

1:22:11

the the road to Wagon pit. Yes. Yes. must read. He said in

1:22:13

that. He said that he couldn't understand the

1:22:15

middle class, you know --

1:22:18

Yeah. -- shoulder or elbow

1:22:20

pack wearing socialist who identified with the working

1:22:22

class but was not certainly not part of it. His observation was

1:22:24

part of the

1:22:27

reason that socialism failed to grip

1:22:29

the working classes because those socialists didn't love the poor.

1:22:32

They just

1:22:34

hated the rich. Yeah. And I also think the working class has a real instinct

1:22:36

for that working class. But that's you know, it's Has

1:22:39

an instinct for that and distrusts that

1:22:43

sentiment of envy. Yeah. You know, masquerading as compassion for

1:22:45

the poor. Yeah. Yeah. No. But that's a really interesting one. So

1:22:48

the the interesting thing about the dislike of

1:22:50

the rich is, of course, they are themselves

1:22:52

rich. And

1:22:54

there's a great there's a great description

1:22:56

in the book when they start off or the the

1:22:58

Fabrin Society first meets about fifteen or twenty people.

1:23:02

And the guy just notes that there's only one guy who

1:23:05

could feasibly call himself working class.

1:23:07

Right. And he was

1:23:09

always thought is a guy called Stan.

1:23:11

who went there by mistake. I can just stand there. Was it

1:23:13

passed on you thought? Maybe there's some clients for

1:23:15

me later. Right.

1:23:18

Right. So But the interesting

1:23:19

thing is they the one thing

1:23:21

they despised in particular was the

1:23:23

land owning class.

1:23:25

And so what

1:23:26

I think they were trying to do is to find

1:23:29

a way to become the new

1:23:31

aristocracy with the same privileges --

1:23:33

Mhmm. -- and to find ways

1:23:35

to be permanently funded and

1:23:37

that required the the ability to find pockets of capital and what's the best place

1:23:40

to seek permanent

1:23:42

funding, whether that's the

1:23:44

government. And

1:23:46

so the interesting thing is to you'll

1:23:48

see in the in the

1:23:50

writing. The the the aristocracy was

1:23:53

was

1:23:56

of where they came from -- Mhmm.

1:23:58

-- very often. But they wanted to

1:24:00

they wanted to

1:24:02

be able to in

1:24:04

a position where

1:24:05

they couldn't be removed from earning good money. And

1:24:07

at the same time,

1:24:09

they also wouldn't

1:24:12

have the the ties

1:24:13

to the working population that you need

1:24:15

when you're landowner because, of course, when

1:24:17

you're landowner, you work in agriculture,

1:24:19

you work with People

1:24:22

got dirty. We've got dirty females and

1:24:24

all sorts of things like that. So when they because

1:24:26

we're in touch with the reality. Exactly. And

1:24:29

so

1:24:30

what's interesting about the vocabulary used by the fabians is extermination. It's

1:24:38

it's everything that has

1:24:40

to do with commerce is evil and bad

1:24:42

and dirty and everything else. And you can

1:24:44

see the language already being That's disgust

1:24:46

language, not fear language. Yeah. So if you if you read I read a book called Hitler's table talk -- Mhmm.

1:24:48

-- and I had learned at

1:24:51

that point that there was large

1:24:56

connection between certain forms of

1:24:58

extreme political views and the

1:25:00

emotion of disgust

1:25:02

rather than fear. And

1:25:04

the table talk is a collection

1:25:06

of Hitler's spontaneous utterances at mealtimes

1:25:08

collected over about four years. and

1:25:10

all of the references to the people

1:25:12

that he wanted to exterminate

1:25:15

are disgust language -- Yeah. -- not

1:25:17

fear. But that's what George Orwell talks about.

1:25:19

It's the he says -- Yeah. -- it's

1:25:21

the smell. They smell bad. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And as a result It's

1:25:23

very visceral approach. It's

1:25:26

it's it's it's the worst

1:25:28

it's the worst that you can possibly

1:25:30

say. Right. That's what that's what he that's what he describes. But yes. So

1:25:32

to Marx fits into this because,

1:25:35

like, all of these guys you're

1:25:39

atomizing humanity in

1:25:42

in in in artificial

1:25:45

What what's the one I'm saying? Categories. Yeah.

1:25:47

Categories. And I think that that's what we are witnessing. Mhmm. Then put in there. That lays

1:25:50

in there. What my office

1:25:53

Malthus was the reason why Malthus makes sense is because he's the

1:25:55

first one that starts to go the

1:25:58

first one that starts to go for economic reasons.

1:26:00

economic reasons In other

1:26:02

words, for an abstraction -- Yeah.

1:26:04

-- perhaps we should have fewer

1:26:06

human beings. Right. Right. But too

1:26:08

many of us And then the concept

1:26:10

of a a life worth living. In other words, if you're poor, quite clearly, your life is not

1:26:16

going to be fun. Right? So in other

1:26:18

words, rather than say that humanity is sacred and the the person who is born

1:26:20

ought to be able to

1:26:22

live until his dying day, and

1:26:25

it might be tough. But actually,

1:26:27

if he is the

1:26:29

more

1:26:30

of us, there are the

1:26:32

stronger and more powerful we are, the more solutions

1:26:34

we can create, more brains they are, the more dynamic things become.

1:26:39

he was he was one of the first ones who he just

1:26:41

said, well, let them

1:26:43

die. Mhmm. Or that

1:26:45

that that will inevitably

1:26:47

occur as partly and exceeds it. And he was

1:26:49

proven wrong or that's -- Right. -- continues he's being continually wrong. And yet Well,

1:26:52

the the way the

1:26:54

the the Malthusian biologists deal

1:26:56

with out is they say, well, you just

1:26:58

start the time frame. Right? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's it's two hundred years of being wrong. And so Well, no.

1:27:00

It'll take five hundred years. Of course. But

1:27:02

eventually, it'll happen. But but this this no

1:27:06

then the – that we hear more and

1:27:08

more often is that the world is overpopulating. Okay.

1:27:10

So when you look at that, there's too

1:27:13

many people on it.

1:27:15

So the corollary there is there too many people? And what's

1:27:17

what does that mean? Well, we need to have fewer and how do you have fewer? Well, we're working hard on that right

1:27:20

now. Exactly.

1:27:23

Have we'll have what we we'll create humane policy. It's a little

1:27:25

bit like one fewer of our cuckoooos

1:27:27

and aspiration where where you take

1:27:29

out the where you

1:27:31

just get get Yeah,

1:27:34

where you

1:27:34

just take out the brains and you just dismantle

1:27:36

the guy

1:27:38

because he's refusing to refusing

1:27:42

to accept -- Mhmm. -- saying, but the Well, I I just did a criticism. I wrote it for the of a Deloitte memo

1:27:44

-- Yeah. -- that was published in May. Yeah. No.

1:27:46

I read Deloitte, you read that. The Deloitte

1:27:51

consultants claimed, well, we're we're in

1:27:54

an ecological crisis. And,

1:27:56

of course, that's of indeterminate

1:27:58

magnitude, but it's an emergency

1:27:59

crisis. And It's such an

1:28:02

emergency that no measures are too much. And if we don't take the measures, things are going to be much

1:28:04

worse

1:28:04

at someone's specified time -- Yeah.

1:28:06

-- future according to our models,

1:28:10

And so the solution to that

1:28:12

right now

1:28:12

is to get everyone to tighten their

1:28:14

belts, not us, of course, because we

1:28:16

have ample girth. But all those

1:28:19

without any apprehension or with complete

1:28:21

blindness to the fact that if you

1:28:23

take an economic hierarchy, There's

1:28:25

always people at the bottom that are barely holding on. The the port will always be with Yes.

1:28:28

Exactly. And and and there's, let's say,

1:28:30

several billion of them in the world right

1:28:32

now And

1:28:35

then if you add what to the top, Echelon's is a five

1:28:37

percent burden, let's say, you take out

1:28:40

huge swaths of the

1:28:42

people who are at the bottom. But if it's but if the O'Neill

1:28:44

is, well, we have to do

1:28:46

that because the Utopia won't arrive.

1:28:49

If we don't, and things will be worse, then, of course, you can

1:28:52

justify that continually. Yeah. And if it's

1:28:54

also driven by the ethos that, well,

1:28:57

you know, if those people were as good

1:28:59

in some intrinsic sense as we were, then they wouldn't be in the position where

1:29:01

they would be dying as a consequence of our necessary

1:29:04

actions. Yeah. And I see

1:29:06

all of that lurking behind the

1:29:08

fact that in the UK right now, your

1:29:10

energy prices have already what doubled, tripled. They're they're insane. Yeah. Yeah.

1:29:11

Yeah. And they're nowhere near as

1:29:14

insane as they're going to get.

1:29:16

Yeah. so, well, you know,

1:29:18

you should just tighten your belt. You don't to drive. You need to heat house. Switzerland.

1:29:20

Turn your thermostat

1:29:23

beyond nineteen degrees.

1:29:24

Yeah. Three

1:29:26

years in jail. It's gonna be -- Yeah.

1:29:28

-- it's gonna be a very cold winter. Yes.

1:29:30

It certainly is cold, dark, and hungry.

1:29:34

Yeah. And so so Malthus is essentially saying there's

1:29:36

a price to living. You know, so

1:29:38

there's the the the human being

1:29:41

can be discarded. It's the concept

1:29:44

of overpopulation becomes an

1:29:46

academic topic and that's

1:29:48

taken seriously. So it

1:29:51

becomes ingrained and then some more necessity to bring depopulation about. Exactly. And so

1:29:53

we're we're hearing people in positions

1:29:55

of, you know,

1:29:58

of power. talking about the fact that we need to retreat back to a

1:30:00

world where we had five hundred million people I

1:30:02

know. I know. So that's I mean,

1:30:05

that's seven point five million billion people that you're trying

1:30:08

to get rid of. That's So they're trying

1:30:10

to beat the communist record for examination. It's insane.

1:30:12

And yet, these people have And I think

1:30:14

the reason why I think the – so let

1:30:16

me just go through – do you have any idea who

1:30:18

came up as a five hundred million figure? Well,

1:30:23

I forgot her name, but it

1:30:25

was doing AAWEF0

1:30:27

there's a shock. Yeah. So

1:30:30

So they just threw that number off as

1:30:32

well. We think it's about five hundred million, but maybe a billion

1:30:34

difference. It's it's always people like them that will survive because

1:30:38

I mean, that's the Well, that's what people think. Yeah. Of course,

1:30:40

a bit as we say, the the the the

1:30:42

thing that we know is that they're always wrong,

1:30:45

and the reason why they're always wrong because the premise

1:30:47

of their argument is not based on observations. It's

1:30:50

based on wishful thinking.

1:30:54

And so self serving, narcissistic, wishful thinking

1:30:56

that comes along with the privilege

1:30:58

that's always what criticized. Yeah.

1:31:01

It's

1:31:01

really quite something. Yeah. So

1:31:03

so

1:31:03

yeah. So Malthus

1:31:05

is very important. Kain's

1:31:07

So Malthus

1:31:08

is important because he

1:31:11

says, too many human beings. Keynes is important

1:31:13

because he's the leading member

1:31:15

of the British Eugenic

1:31:18

Society. then Marx is important because he, just

1:31:20

like Keynes and and and