0:13

Hello, everyone. I'm happy

0:16

today to be able to talk to Louise Perry.

0:20

We'll have an interesting conversation about

0:22

sexual dynamics and the relative

0:24

role of women and men. Louise

0:26

Perry, my guest today, is UK based

0:29

journalist author and columnist, writing

0:32

on the topics of sexual freedom, and

0:35

the current state of feminism

0:38

and the feminine. Her recent book

0:41

is the case against the sexual

0:43

revolution published in twenty twenty two, so

0:45

a new book. It notes

0:48

the emergence of widespread disillusionment

0:51

with sex particularly among

0:53

the young male and female alike,

0:55

and discusses the long term

0:58

psychological and social error

1:00

of a life of Hedonistic urges

1:04

in the midst of the upheaval of traditional

1:06

marital concepts. Louise

1:09

is also the director of the other

1:11

half, a new non partisan

1:13

feminist think tank, and

1:16

the host of maiden Mother

1:19

matriarch, a developmental progression,

1:22

a podcast about sexual

1:24

politics. Hello, Louise. Thank

1:26

you very much for agreeing to talk to me

1:28

today. You wrote a

1:30

rather controversial

1:33

book recently. Let's talk

1:35

about the book. I'm just gonna walk through the

1:37

chapters and give everybody a

1:40

preview of where we're heading. So chapter

1:43

one, sex must be taken seriously.

1:47

That doesn't sound like much fun. Number

1:50

two, men and women are different

1:53

Well, that'll get you in trouble. That's for sure

1:55

too. So some

1:57

desires are bad. Loveless

2:01

sex is not empowering. Consent

2:04

is not enough and people

2:06

are not products. Well,

2:09

if you were trying to pick a fight in today's

2:11

society, particularly

2:14

with those on the left, I would say, you

2:16

couldn't have picked six more contentious

2:20

titles for chapters with the possible

2:23

exception of people are not products.

2:25

I suppose most people on the

2:28

even the radicals would agree with that statement,

2:30

but the rest of it pretty much runs counter

2:35

to I would say

2:37

the juvenile delusions of our present

2:39

culture. I was interested

2:41

today I was

2:44

going through your book again, and I

2:47

noticed once again that you started

2:49

with the story of Marilyn Monroe and Hugh Heffnerin,

2:52

You know, I was just talking to my wife about

2:54

that the other day. I

2:57

think it was probably in conversation motivated

2:59

by the fact that this podcast was coming

3:01

up and We talked about

3:05

the emergence of pornography during our

3:07

lifetime, you know, and when where both

3:09

of us are around sixty and when

3:11

we were young, the

3:14

standard pornographic recourse,

3:17

you might say, was playboy.

3:19

But that soon multiplied like

3:22

a hydra, and first of all,

3:24

there was playboy. And it had some pretensions

3:26

to something like culture

3:29

and

3:30

there was a certain style associated

3:32

with it and a certain

3:37

what would you call it, veneer of sophistication.

3:40

You know, it was all jazz and penthouses

3:42

and and and New York

3:44

and freedom and youth and you

3:47

know, sexual activity between

3:49

consenting adults all free

3:51

of other entanglements, but completely conscious

3:53

of what they were doing. And there were eyebrow

3:56

interviews and, you know, sort

3:58

of in jokes. And so Playboy

4:02

was quite effective about generating

4:05

a kind of late rat

4:08

pack cool around itself. But

4:11

then The next iteration

4:14

of the pornographic ascent

4:17

was penthouse, and it was

4:21

It was the harder core version of Playboy.

4:23

It got a lot more gynecological, let's

4:25

say. And then hustler hit after

4:28

that, and everybody knew at that point

4:30

no matter what their attitude was toward

4:33

Playboy, that we'd

4:36

stepped into a new sort

4:38

of swamp of monstrosity.

4:42

And then, of course, it wasn't long

4:44

after that. Fifteen

4:46

years, maybe something like that, that porn

4:49

hit the Internet in in a way we

4:51

went. So let's start talking about

4:53

Marilyn Monroe. And her I

4:56

mean, she she she she

4:59

embodied this feminine

5:02

archetype of sex

5:05

kitten, I guess, the fem fatality too,

5:07

but she's more on the sex kitten end of things,

5:09

and she's still an icon.

5:12

And she's an icon that even gave rise

5:14

to figures such as madonna, I

5:16

would say, because madonna played with the

5:18

Maryland and rural image a lot and with a fair

5:20

bit of success, but Sounds like Marilyn

5:22

exactly had a good time with it. So

5:24

she died very young, by

5:26

her own

5:27

hand. And, oh, Lloyd, why don't you tell little

5:29

bit more of her story? Yeah.

5:32

She had a fairly miserable life from

5:34

start to finish. One of

5:36

the reasons I I decided to open the book by

5:38

talking about Maloman Row

5:40

and Hugh Heffner is partly

5:42

because just through through good luck

5:44

from my speech as a writer, they were they were born in

5:47

exactly the same year. Even

5:49

though, of course, yeah, Monro died

5:51

young and Hector lived well into

5:53

his nineties. And

5:55

they were both these incredible icons

5:57

of the sexual revolution, Marilyn

5:59

for her beauty and Heffner for his

6:01

success for Playboy magazine, but they

6:03

lived extraordinarily different lives

6:06

and they experienced sexual liberation,

6:09

so called, in completely different ways.

6:11

You know, Malomonro was

6:14

grew up in foster homes, there's victims of

6:16

victim of childhood abuse, and and of domestic

6:18

violence as an adult, and as

6:20

you say, die by her in hand, long

6:23

standing substance abuse issues, etcetera.

6:26

He had and I didn't suffer in that way. I

6:28

I mean, I do think that actually by the time

6:31

Heffner grew old, he

6:33

had lost the glamour that he

6:35

had as a younger man. I think that he

6:37

is evidence of the fact that even

6:40

the most successful playboy

6:42

has a shelf life, not

6:44

as shorter shelf life

6:47

as as as the sexually liberated woman does.

6:49

I mean, really, in reality, with a a modern

6:51

western lifespan, you're

6:53

talking maybe a culture of that.

6:56

You might be really sexually desirable, which

6:58

is why I think it's risky to place

7:01

all of your self esteem. On

7:04

that value or or indeed to

7:07

best your career, best your life around being

7:10

sexually desirable because it's really not very long.

7:12

Well, you know, that's that's

7:15

a good

7:17

place to to take a slight

7:20

d tour. You know, a

7:22

lot of your book makes a

7:24

moral case and moral

7:27

cases aren't particularly popular

7:29

now. But there are

7:31

some interesting ways

7:33

of discussing

7:35

morality technically that

7:38

I think might be worth delving into. So

7:41

one of the things that people who are watching

7:43

and listening might be interested knowing is

7:45

that people pursue different

7:47

mating strategies, so to speak. That's

7:49

how evolutionary psychologists or biologists

7:52

describe it. You can make the

7:54

same case in the animal kingdom to some degree.

7:57

And there are

7:59

short term mating strategies and

8:01

that would be associated with an ethos

8:04

of the glorification, let's say, or the

8:06

practice of casual sex, so

8:08

sex without relationship. And one

8:11

of the questions that you might ask is,

8:14

are there pronounced differences

8:17

between people who tend

8:19

to pursue short term meeting

8:22

strategies versus long

8:24

term mating strategies. Now long term mating

8:26

strategy would be accompanied by the formulation

8:29

of a relationship of mutual

8:31

support. That's

8:33

what makes it sustainable. And

8:36

the answer is, well, yeah, there are marked

8:38

differences one

8:41

of the hallmarks of anti social personality,

8:44

and so that's the personality characteristic

8:47

set that is associated with

8:49

criminality is a proclivity towards

8:51

short term mating strategies and

8:54

that is associated with early onset

8:56

of sexual activity and multiple sexual

8:59

partners, and then in its more pathological

9:01

form, a predatory or parasitic

9:08

lifestyle in relationship to

9:10

sex. And so that

9:13

has been elaborated more recently into

9:15

the analysis of so called dark catrad

9:18

personality characteristics. That's an emerging

9:20

model of the malevolent

9:23

and pathological personality, and

9:25

that involves Machiavellianism, which

9:27

is manipulative. Narcissistic,

9:32

which is virtue

9:34

free attention seeking. It's

9:36

a good way of thinking about it. Psychopathy

9:40

which is predatory parasitism and

9:42

sadism which is positive delight in

9:44

harmed other people and those --

9:46

all of those delightful characteristics

9:49

are associated with striking

9:52

proclivity for short term mating, and

9:54

that brings up the

9:57

stark realization that it's

10:00

a form of exploitation. That's

10:02

a good way of thinking about it. And it's

10:04

fundamentally the exploitation of women

10:07

because here's a good way of defining women

10:09

since we don't know how to do that in our society

10:11

anymore. We might as well start with basics

10:14

and throughout the animal kingdom,

10:16

and this is true all the way from sperm

10:18

and egg up to fully

10:20

embodied being. The

10:22

female is almost inevitably the

10:25

sex that pours more

10:28

resources into reproduction. So

10:30

that means that women have a higher

10:33

they're a higher cost for sexual reproduction

10:35

in case anyone's still too stupid

10:37

to actually understand that. Might

10:39

as well make it explicit. And what

10:41

that also means is that if

10:45

there's exploitation going on in

10:48

a sexual relationship, It's

10:51

most often, although not always,

10:53

the male who has less at stake,

10:55

exploiting the female who has far

10:58

more at stake, and it's enticing

11:02

for young women to believe. I

11:04

suppose if they want to pursue hedonic

11:06

pleasure that they can escape from that

11:08

reality, but it's very

11:10

difficult too. So that's one element. Then the

11:12

next element with regard to morality is

11:16

If you're playing a game that only works in the

11:18

short term for

11:21

others, but also for yourself,

11:23

then that's not a very good game. And, you know,

11:25

the point you were making was that Maryland

11:28

was playing a particularly short game.

11:31

And even Hugh who had

11:33

less to lose and arguably on

11:35

some dimensions more to gain

11:38

He was still pretty damn pathetic by the

11:40

time he hit. I would

11:42

say, what? Mid

11:45

fifties I watched one of his late

11:47

TV shows where he was touring

11:49

Europe with his three blonde bimbos

11:51

who were not the world's They

11:54

weren't the sharpest knives in the drawer. Let's

11:56

put it that way. And it was Hugh and

11:58

his three blonde clones

12:02

trazing painfully from full

12:06

glamorous restaurant to full glamorous

12:08

restaurant through Europe engaging

12:10

in conversations so pure oil and

12:12

painful that anyone with any sense

12:14

would have run away from the table screaming

12:17

after five minutes. So he turned

12:19

into his own parody, and

12:21

that was quite clear. I mean, anybody with any

12:23

sense at all. No matter how much they might

12:25

have been enamored by his young

12:28

and hypothetically glamorous self.

12:30

If you had looked at that with a

12:32

cold eye a few decades later,

12:35

it was looking was looking pretty oldest

12:37

boy at the frat party had

12:41

that whole stench about it, I would

12:43

say. So Alright. So back to Maryland,

12:46

you said that she had a pretty brutal upbringing

12:48

and was exploited

12:51

pretty early on. Might as well tell

12:53

the story about her

12:55

the famous photographs that launched Playboy.

12:58

Yes. So so Marilyn was the both

13:01

the first cover star and also the the first

13:03

naked centerfold in the first issue of playboy.

13:06

But the naked photos requires

13:09

without her consent. She'd taken them well,

13:11

she'd had them taken many years before when she

13:13

was much younger for very little money just because

13:15

she was desperate. She'd signed the release

13:18

with a false name, but somehow have

13:20

not got a hold of them and paid the photographer

13:22

rather than her in order to publish

13:24

it in playboy. And she wasn't even sent a

13:26

free copy and was apparently very

13:29

upset about it. Heffner ended up buying

13:31

the crypt next to hers at

13:33

the the cemetery in Los Angeles

13:36

where they're both buried, obviously, buried many

13:38

decades after she was, but they never

13:40

actually met in real life. So this

13:42

whole kind of relationship between

13:45

the two of them was very much initiated

13:47

by him. And, I mean,

13:49

this is the this is the point that I wanna make with

13:52

talk about Marilyn Monroe. She she is very typical

13:55

of female sex icons in

13:57

having this kind of tragic

13:59

backstory multiple

14:02

forms of exploitation by lots of people,

14:04

most of the men. And and

14:06

yet she has held up as this this

14:10

iconic figure of the other such revolution, which

14:12

we're supposed to believe was a good thing. Right.

14:14

And my argument in the book, it it is, of course,

14:16

the case against such revolution. My

14:19

argument is not that it was entirely bad.

14:21

I don't think you can paint any huge

14:24

historical event as entirely bad

14:26

or entirely good. But I think that

14:28

it has been falsely presented

14:31

mostly by progressives through roast

14:33

andted. Spectacles, and this is

14:35

my attempt to counter that. Yeah.

14:37

Well, there's no doubt she was an iconic

14:39

figure and still is. And part

14:42

of the reason It's hard to say

14:44

exactly why there's

14:46

something

14:48

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Obviously hyperattractive about her.

16:01

And I heard her interviewed once

16:04

in radio station where she said she could walk

16:06

down the street, I believe her

16:09

her genuine name was Norma Rae. Is

16:11

that right? Norma Rae? And

16:13

she said she could walk down the street as Norm Array,

16:16

and no one would look at her, or she could

16:18

walk down the street as Maryland, and then people

16:20

would just be attracted to her like mad. And

16:22

so gonna run a hypothesis by

16:24

you, you know, given that

16:27

that backstory for female,

16:29

sexual icons, and this is often the case

16:31

for girls who get dragged

16:34

or who agreed to participate

16:36

in the pornography industry that No.

16:39

They're often abandoned girls who

16:41

have a history of fractured

16:43

relationships and abuse. Now,

16:46

so here's here's a hypothesis. You

16:48

know that girls without fathers

16:50

hit puberty one year earlier. Hey,

16:53

that's a real biological mystery, but

16:55

here's a hypothesis. So imagine that

16:57

you're Bereft

17:00

of male companionship and

17:03

productivity and protection. And

17:06

maybe that's because you're culture

17:09

doesn't have enough men. Sometimes that happens

17:12

after wars, for example, or maybe

17:14

you're just in an economic

17:16

niche or social niche where

17:19

you're unfortunate, you know. So Now

17:22

why would you develop a

17:24

year early. From a puberty perspective,

17:26

well, the answer is one of the ways

17:28

that women can attract male attention,

17:31

obviously, and therefore, in principle,

17:34

companionship protection, productivity, all

17:36

of that. That that might

17:38

come along with a real relationship is by

17:40

being sexually attractive

17:43

and available. And so if

17:45

there's a dearth of males in the local

17:47

environment, then early puberty could

17:49

easily be a way of increasing

17:52

the probability of catching a mate early

17:54

enough so you don't starve to death,

17:57

let's say, Okay? So then

17:59

imagine that there's a psychological equivalent

18:02

to that. And this is where that

18:04

wave flight femoral architectite

18:07

might kick in. And so if

18:09

you're appealingly, vulnerability,

18:12

beautiful, and available, and

18:14

then you have that that

18:16

magic that goes that can go along

18:18

with that. When it's transformed

18:21

into something, truly

18:23

archetypal, which Marilyn did extraordinarily

18:25

well. You know, there was a bit of a little

18:28

girl about her. She had a very girly

18:30

voice, and that's how she's saying, and

18:33

she had a a kind of innocent

18:35

naive provocativeness that was

18:38

amplified paradoxically by

18:40

her overt sexuality. And

18:43

so she had some of the appeal of a

18:46

helpless child and some of the appeal of

18:48

a truly mature woman. And

18:50

that's a pretty that can be a very deadly combination.

18:53

And I think the fact that it's a deadly combination

18:56

is also a kind of adaptation. So

18:58

you can imagine that girls who are

19:00

abused might turn to that that

19:04

pattern of seductive behavior because

19:08

it's they if they turn on the

19:10

charm, full throttle in that

19:12

manner, it increases the probability

19:15

that even in their desperate economic streets

19:17

they might be able to attract the male. And,

19:19

of course, with Maryland, that was elevated

19:21

right to the point where she became literally the

19:24

poster girl for that approach. You

19:26

know? And then I mentioned Madonna

19:28

a little earlier. And when Madonna

19:30

first came on the scene, I thought she's kinda interesting.

19:33

She seems to be taking this Maryland

19:36

like archetype, but toying with

19:38

it consciously. You know, she

19:40

was a business woman, pretty

19:42

canny, She seemed to be in charge

19:45

of her own image, you know.

19:47

And I thought maybe she had a grip on the

19:49

archetype, but It

19:52

isn't obvious to me at all that she did,

19:54

you know. I Madonna's life has been

19:56

characterized by a continual pattern

19:58

of sexual attention seeking.

20:01

And she's also, I

20:03

would say, turned into her own parody even

20:06

in her I think she's in her late

20:09

sixties now. If I remember

20:11

correctly, she's still doing essentially

20:14

She's still doing photoshoots that are

20:17

leveraging pornographic attractiveness.

20:19

And that, I mean, that requires a lot of

20:22

maintenance and makeup by the time

20:24

you're at her stage of life, but it doesn't

20:26

really look to me like it's

20:28

aged particularly well. And

20:31

that's the problem with short term mating

20:33

strategy is that it's not a good iterating

20:35

game. You can't play with with other people.

20:38

Continually. You have to have multiple partners.

20:40

And it's not a good pattern for your whole

20:43

life course. That's partly

20:45

what makes it both immoral and unwise.

20:47

It just doesn't work across the

20:50

decades that you're going to be

20:51

alive. So Yes. Alright.

20:54

So back to back to Maryland, and

20:56

used. On that on that point, I

20:58

decided to call my podcast made in mother Matriarch

21:01

because it's my hub office that

21:03

one of the features of late

21:06

twentieth, early 21st century culture

21:09

is that the normal life progression

21:11

that women are supposed to pass through

21:13

from made into mother to made throughout. Has

21:15

been interrupted,

21:18

and we now have a very widespread problem of women

21:20

desperate to remain in maiden mode permanently.

21:24

And madonna is a beautiful example of that. She

21:26

can't she can't she can't

21:28

find it within herself to accept progressing from

21:30

from Maiden to Mavericks, and I think that's a lot

21:33

of I think the key cause of

21:35

that is the fact that we don't attach status

21:37

to maidens and to mothers and to make trucks

21:39

in a way that we

21:41

once did I think that all of the stages

21:43

is loaded loaded onto the maiden role.

21:47

But it's necessarily, as you say, a role

21:49

that you can't spend your

21:50

entire life And I think that explains

21:52

a lot of the psychological dysfunction

21:54

that women suffer from.

21:56

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that's

21:58

I think that's right. So what we have

22:00

is the domination. You

22:03

talk you basically laid out a three

22:05

part architect. And

22:07

it's it's an archetype of transformation.

22:10

You know, and I've talked to some

22:12

pretty bright women on my podcast and

22:15

number of them have commented that as

22:17

they progress along their careers and

22:19

their as they accrue productive

22:23

status, So let's say, as mothers

22:25

and mataracts, they don't necessarily

22:29

attain a commensurate status, particularly

22:31

among young women interestingly enough.

22:34

And maybe that's because the women are competing.

22:36

You know, I suppose a woman can

22:38

be attractive as a mother and a matriarch can

22:41

so the maintenance might take exception to that

22:43

because it's a form of competition. But

22:46

I do think too that our

22:48

culture, hypervalues the

22:51

maiden image, especially when that's

22:54

allied with it's

22:57

not versional maiden that's exactly exactly

23:01

held up as an icon. You

23:03

know, even though people like Madonna

23:06

will play with the idea of virginity, as

23:09

something attractive. It's only there

23:11

as a sexual magnet,

23:14

and it's only their tongue and cheek.

23:17

In some real sense. And

23:19

then our culture because it's a consumer culture

23:22

and also because, you know, it

23:24

concentrates on teenagers a lot

23:26

because they have they have disposable income,

23:28

and it's really the case that our culture became

23:30

consumerist oriented. When

23:32

teenagers started to develop disposable

23:35

income, it's not surprising at all

23:37

that the consumer market

23:40

tilts towards the made an archetype because

23:42

that's where there's spare money to be vacuumed up.

23:45

That's sort of a perfect storm in some sense.

23:47

And so but, yeah, so

23:49

our there developing hypotheses

23:51

here in the podcast and obviously you've thought this

23:53

through to a great degree is that part

23:55

of the reason that the sexual

23:58

revolution, claiming absolute

24:00

sexual freedom, is pathological is

24:02

because, well, it enables the male exploiters,

24:05

but and that's not good at all. But it also

24:08

isn't a good medium to long term

24:10

game Well, I would say either for women

24:12

or men. I mean, if if you develop

24:14

a long term partner in a woman

24:17

and you're a man, you might want a woman who

24:19

has enough sense to move from Maiden to

24:21

Mother to Matriarch and

24:23

to do that in a manner that

24:26

facilitates the you

24:29

know, the development of the relationship across

24:31

time. You know, and maybe I

24:33

wonder too if a woman who does that really

24:35

well is as she progresses

24:38

across that three part track.

24:41

Also, to some degree, integrates the

24:43

previous stages as she moves forward.

24:46

Because it might be the case that if

24:48

you're a successful matriarch,

24:51

maybe that's at the point where you become a

24:53

grandmother or something like that.

24:55

That you've also integrated

24:58

mother and even maiden and are still

25:00

capable of playing those roles when that's

25:02

appropriate, but are no longer only

25:05

limited to them. And I'm not saying

25:07

that's an easy thing to pull off because, you

25:09

know, it's not that hard to be it's not

25:11

that easy to be you know,

25:13

outstandingly, sexually attractive

25:15

male or female by the time you're in your

25:17

sixties, let's say, gets to be

25:20

old age is fighting against that pretty hard,

25:22

but that doesn't mean

25:24

that that can't be held

25:26

forward as you know,

25:29

an unattainable ideal to which we might

25:31

strive or at least hope might make itself

25:33

manifest. And I think that's actually I

25:36

think that's actually a possibility. Know

25:38

that you can you

25:40

can move towards something like a full integration.

25:43

Like like Russian dolls. think is

25:45

the perfect image for it. You know, the Russian

25:47

delta rotanes the the younger,

25:49

the smaller counterparts.

25:52

In the hole. That's what that's the aspiration. I

25:54

mean, I think part of the reason that we're so

25:56

focused on the maiden role is partly as

25:59

you say because it's a very consumerist kind

26:01

of product. I mean, a strange paradox.

26:03

We're on the one hand, I'd say Western society

26:06

is increasingly gerontocratic

26:09

in the power and assets

26:12

primarily are disproportionately held

26:14

by the old. But it's also still a very,

26:16

very youth oriented culture in terms of politics,

26:19

in terms of you know, fashion, beauty,

26:21

all of this kind of stuff. You have that kind strange

26:23

tension where young people simultaneously incredibly

26:27

culturally powerful but not actually very economically

26:29

powerful, which probably actually exacerbates the

26:31

feelings of of tension there. I

26:34

think another reason for it as well is I think

26:36

that I think that women's lives

26:38

tend to be more clearly segmented by

26:42

reproductive stage in a way

26:44

that maybe men's less so. I think that men's

26:46

lives change a bit less when they become fathers,

26:48

when they become grandfather's. And I

26:50

think that part of the resistance

26:53

to this natural progression comes

26:55

among women comes from the fact that so much

26:58

of feminism of the second wave has been

27:00

about trying to be more masculine in

27:03

every way, in a way that I think is

27:05

ultimately detrimental to women. That's why I called

27:07

chapter two men and women are different. Because I think

27:09

we have to just start from the premise that men and

27:11

women are fundamentally different. There is a sexual asymmetry

27:14

that is never going away. There are psychological,

27:16

average psychological nevertheless, at the

27:18

population level they matter, there are these

27:20

differences between men and women. And

27:22

actually, I think that any kind of productive

27:24

form of feminism has to start from that

27:27

recognition that those fundamental

27:29

differences aren't going anywhere.

27:33

Yeah. Okay. So so let's let's

27:36

Let's focus on that now.

27:38

So now we're off to chapter two. I'm

27:42

gonna make a counter case for a minute and

27:44

then let's hash that out. Alright.

27:47

So we

27:49

mentioned at the beginning of this podcast that

27:53

the fundamental biological differentiator

27:56

or one of them because there's a number is

27:58

that what makes a

28:00

creature female rather than male is

28:04

disproportionate contribution to reproduction.

28:06

And so you even see that with the sperm and the

28:09

egg. The egg is way,

28:11

way bigger in vert across

28:14

the biological universe than this firm.

28:16

And that means the egg

28:18

has more resources than this firm

28:20

and that is echoed at every

28:22

stage of sexual interaction in

28:25

animals and human beings. There's a few

28:27

exceptions. In in some

28:29

regards, like I think male

28:32

seahorses care for the young,

28:34

for example. They basically have something

28:37

approximating a pregnancy. But

28:40

that's enough of an exception

28:42

so that most people who are

28:44

biologically inform

28:46

know about it. It's extraordinarily rare

28:48

for a male, for the male to take

28:51

on that role. And so

28:54

women are the

28:57

half of the human race that bears disproportionate

29:00

responsibility for for

29:03

sexual reproduction, pays

29:05

a higher cost for it, and that seems

29:07

to shape everything, including mating strategies.

29:10

But but but here's

29:12

Here's the killer. And

29:14

so we could also say that it's been true for the

29:17

entire course of reproductive

29:19

history. After the emergence of sex,

29:21

which emerged a very long time ago

29:23

biologically speaking. But

29:27

the pill hit you know,

29:29

fifty years ago and was was

29:32

made widespread very rapidly and what

29:34

that did in principle and to some

29:37

degree in reality was give

29:39

females voluntary

29:43

control of their reproductive function really

29:46

for the first time in biological history.

29:48

And so that opened up a new question.

29:50

And this is a question. If

29:54

a woman has full voluntary control

29:57

over her reproductive function,

30:01

Why isn't she now just

30:03

a man? That's one question.

30:05

Or what exactly distinguishes her

30:08

from a man? Because one thing that distinguished

30:10

her was her differential role

30:12

in reproductive burden, and now

30:15

that's been ameliorated arguably

30:18

to some degree. And then also,

30:21

if reproductive function

30:23

is now a matter of voluntary choice,

30:25

why can't sex just be

30:28

fun and free. And I would

30:31

say we've been wrestling with those

30:33

two questions for fifty years. And longer

30:35

than that, inso far as there's been some

30:37

form of reliable contraception, but it wasn't

30:40

very damn reliable till the

30:42

birth control pill. Kicked in.

30:44

And so I think it is an open question

30:48

to what degree can sex just be, you

30:50

know, fun and fancy

30:52

free. And also, it's an open question

30:56

to what degree aren't women? Just

30:59

now the same as men. And so,

31:05

well, any comments on that?

31:07

Whole line of inquiry are more than welcome.

31:09

Well, that's the promise. Nice of the sexual

31:11

revolution that we that by introducing

31:14

this new technology shock.

31:17

We do raise the differences between the sexes.

31:19

And I think that to some extent, if

31:21

you live a very modern life,

31:24

you know, it's not just the pill, obviously, that's changed

31:26

in the last sixty years. We also have very different

31:28

ways of of working. People

31:30

are much less likely to do manual work. At

31:32

least in the west than they used to be. We

31:35

live much more mixed

31:39

lives. There's much less homosexuality than

31:41

they used to be. And so people are interacting

31:43

in the workplace, whatever in basically

31:45

in the gap egalitarian fashion between men

31:47

and women. If you live that kind

31:49

of life, where you're not really using

31:52

your sex to body for anything. You're just,

31:54

you know, living the life of the mind really.

31:56

You could believe that those differences are trivial.

31:58

And I think that's where we've had

32:00

some very strange political ideas around, for instance,

32:06

having biological males competing women's sports

32:08

is is is seem to be a

32:10

completely logical thing from people

32:12

who do essentially those lives who probably haven't

32:14

actually competed in sports. I mean, you'll notice that

32:17

female athletes tend to be opposed to

32:19

this because they tend to be completely aware of

32:21

the fact that there are huge differences

32:23

in performance between male and female athletes. But

32:25

for people Well, you can usually mark them into

32:27

silence though. Yeah. Some of them are brave

32:30

enough to say so many of them, yeah, as you say.

32:32

But many people who who we

32:34

don't really use do sports, we don't, like,

32:36

live very physical lives, may be genuinely

32:39

quite oblivious to this

32:41

fact because that seems to be the promise

32:43

of technology that it erases these different. I

32:45

don't think that it does. I mean, not only

32:47

because we don't yet have artificial

32:49

wounds. We still reproduce the old fashioned

32:52

way, and I think are likely to, for the foreseeable.

32:54

I don't think artificial wounds are just around the corner.

32:56

I think, actually, there are spectacularly difficult technology

32:58

to develop. And also because we

33:00

still have the same brains essentially

33:03

that our stone age ancestors did. We spent

33:05

ninety five percent of our species history as hunter

33:07

gatherers is humanity's first and

33:09

most successful adaptation. And

33:11

I think that we can't, no matter how,

33:15

you know, intelligent we are, no matter how does really.

33:17

We try. I think it's very, very hard

33:19

to erase those differences at a psychological level.

33:22

And the response interestingly that

33:25

I've had to this book since it was published. It's obviously

33:27

huge controversial title, the whole premise. It's a huge

33:29

controversial. But interestingly, I

33:31

haven't had nearly as much criticism

33:34

as I thought I would. And I've actually had

33:36

positive reviews even from left leaning

33:38

outlets and so on. I got an amazing review in

33:41

the observer, you know. I think it's because

33:44

actually an enormous number of women

33:46

across the political spectrum who have been

33:48

pro offered this promise of

33:51

you can live just like a man, you can have sex just

33:53

like a man. They're profoundly miserable,

33:56

and they do recognize that actually deep

33:58

down that promise is an empty

34:00

one. And I think there's

34:03

the the the emotion that I've had most

34:05

often from readers is just a sense of

34:07

relief that someone is saying

34:09

it and that it seems as if there's no

34:11

permission to say it

34:13

because I I think that the effort

34:16

of trying to pretend that men and women are

34:18

the same is ultimately rude us to

34:20

both sexes.

34:21

Yeah. Well, you see this weird phenomenon

34:25

emerging on the left in particular.

34:27

And think it's particularly rife

34:29

in university campuses where

34:32

you get a combination

34:34

of compassion and

34:37

low conscientiousness and high openness,

34:40

driving a particular political mindset

34:42

And so the compassion means, well,

34:45

we're going to accept everyone in the low conscientiousness

34:48

means, well, we're not bound

34:50

by anything approximating duty. And the

34:52

high openness means, you know,

34:54

we're create we're creative and curious

34:56

about every form of potential

34:59

self expression. And then

35:02

that produces this idea that

35:04

all sexual Drive.

35:07

You have a chapter in your book called nodal.

35:10

Something like nodal desire is good.

35:12

And so we'll talk about that

35:14

a little bit. We have this There's

35:16

this absolute clamoring

35:20

insistence that every form

35:23

of sexual desire and

35:25

behavior is to be valued,

35:27

celebrated, and promoted, and

35:30

that if you dare oppose that, you

35:32

are

35:35

There's something immoral about the opposition, so

35:37

that's merely a consequence, let's say,

35:39

of your bigotry. But and

35:41

so, you know, and you

35:44

you pointed out your book that you

35:46

often get artistic types like Andre

35:48

Gee, let's say, and left wing intellectuals pushing

35:51

for full sexual freedom. And

35:54

some of that's high openness and some of that's low

35:56

conscientiousness. That's for sure.

35:58

But then there's a kickback that's really

36:01

interesting to me. Because

36:03

it's the same radicals possessed

36:05

by exactly the same set of ideas

36:08

who make a very radical

36:10

counterclaim And the counterclaim

36:13

is something like, well form

36:15

of sexual behavior is must

36:18

be celebrated and is nothing but a

36:20

testament to the, you know, ever blossoming

36:22

range of human freedom. But

36:25

every form of sexual interaction between

36:28

particularly a young man and a young woman

36:30

is so dangerous right to its

36:33

core that there's

36:35

nothing more important than

36:37

full consent and that

36:39

consent has to be documented verbally

36:41

and maybe even beyond verbally,

36:44

formally for even interactions as

36:47

that were once as casual, let's

36:49

say, as dancing.

36:52

And so at Princeton University, for example,

36:54

there was a a push to

36:58

make men ensure that even when

37:00

they're dancing with a girl who

37:03

agreed to dance, that it

37:05

was incumbent upon them multiple

37:07

times during the dance to

37:09

ask verbally to ensure that that

37:12

once established consent was

37:14

still continuing. Now, you know,

37:16

if you weren't being cynical about that, you

37:18

might say, well, that's a stumbling

37:20

attempt to something approximating

37:23

awake politeness because if you

37:25

have any sense,

37:27

when you're dancing with someone, one of the things

37:29

you actually wanna know is do

37:31

they really wanna be doing it.

37:33

But it's very peculiar to me

37:35

in illuminating that this

37:38

insistence on negotiated

37:41

contract for every step of

37:44

a potentially sexual interaction

37:46

is being insisted upon not

37:49

by Christian apologists for traditional

37:51

morality, but by the same radicals who

37:54

are out there dancing three

37:56

quarters naked in the street in their dog

37:58

costumes

37:59

and insisting that, you know, every bit

38:01

of sexual expression is to

38:03

be lorded.

38:05

My suspicion with what's going

38:07

on there with this rise

38:09

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39:15

A very a bureaucratic attitude

39:18

to sex, shall we say? This idea of

39:20

asking for consent at every stage and so on. I

39:22

mean, the funniest example which I I mentioned briefly

39:24

in book is an is an idea

39:26

cooked at Western University students that you would have

39:29

a sign of contract before you had casual

39:31

sex and you take a photo of

39:33

of of either the pair of you with your contracts

39:35

and so on and and the joke obviously

39:37

is why not get dressed up in a

39:39

big white dress why not invite all your

39:41

friends, you know. It's this it's this sort of reinvention of

39:43

marriage. I think -- Right. -- I think

39:45

that that's basically what is going

39:48

for the day. That's that one. I

39:50

think what's going on with this reintroduction of

39:52

these new rules, post me

39:54

too, is that Complete

39:58

sexual freedom is not actually a sustainable

40:00

system. And what we've had

40:03

for many

40:05

centuries millennia up until the nineteen sixties

40:07

really is a very

40:10

complicated tapestry of laws

40:12

and norms. Which regulate sexuality

40:15

and which particularly regulate heterosexuality. Because

40:18

what you're dealing with when it comes

40:20

to heterosexuality is great

40:23

imbalances of physical strength, the fundamental

40:26

imbalance of reproductive roles

40:28

and also personality differences and

40:30

all of this which make it's just inherently very

40:33

very difficult to to deal with

40:35

mating smoothly. There is a lot of heartache,

40:37

there is lot of risk. And what we

40:39

have in most societies is

40:42

this complex dance of

40:45

marriage customs and, you

40:47

know, thinking more recently in the West? Shaperones

40:50

and asking of the the father's

40:52

hand and all of these things, which which is supposed

40:54

to basically control

40:58

sexuality. I mean, the the the the

41:00

progressive account of this is that they repress

41:02

people's sexuality to which they say, yes,

41:04

they do. But they but they do that because they have

41:06

to, because they that is completely

41:09

untrammeled sexual freedom is

41:11

not possible because of you

41:13

can't run a society like that and because

41:15

you will inevitably have people coming into conflict

41:17

with one another if that's permitted. So you need

41:19

people to be men and women to be

41:21

repressed. I think that's what marriage does. But

41:24

in a good way, you know, as a necessary

41:27

step, towards having productive relationships. And

41:29

I think there's an attempt to kind reinvent that

41:31

with this new

41:32

bureaucracy, but it's not nearly as good.

41:34

Yeah. Yeah. Well,

41:36

okay. So here here's rule is that responsibility

41:39

abdicated is vacuumed up by tyrants.

41:42

And so if young men and young women

41:44

aren't regulating their own sexual behavior, then

41:46

tyrannical bureaucrats will definitely step

41:49

in to have fun on that front.

41:51

So but You brought

41:53

up two points that we could pursue,

41:55

and one is an an analysis

41:58

of what actually constitutes consent.

42:01

And then we

42:03

could start with that. And then the other one was,

42:06

let me see if I've exactly got

42:08

this Oh,

42:10

yes. Inhibition

42:12

and oppression, let's say, of

42:15

sexual desire. See,

42:18

this this is something that has to

42:20

be handled conceptually very

42:22

carefully. So there's different

42:24

models of socialization

42:28

that permeate the, let's say, the psychological

42:31

community. And one of them is

42:33

an ethos of something like inhibition.

42:36

And repression. And so

42:38

the Freudian sort of fall into that camp

42:40

that the superego inhibits the

42:43

id. And and

42:45

squashes it down, I'd say, and that

42:48

part of what makes you a social

42:50

being is your ability to

42:53

suppress and inhibit desires

42:56

like aggression and sex. And

43:00

I don't think that's true. I

43:02

only think that's true when it's gone wrong.

43:05

So here's an alternative viewpoint. This is

43:08

the viewpoint of people like Jean

43:10

Pierre Gégé, who's great developmental

43:12

psychologist. He thought

43:14

of the developmental process

43:17

as one of the integration Now, you already

43:19

put forth a three stage model of female

43:21

development, and you could think about that as a

43:24

continuing model of complex integration.

43:27

And so the reason that sex becomes

43:30

regulated isn't because it's now

43:32

being inhibited. It's

43:34

being regulated because it's being integrated

43:36

into higher order games. And

43:39

so it's being integrated, for example,

43:42

and and maybe can even be celebrated within

43:44

this confined area

43:46

of or regulated area of integration.

43:49

It's becoming integrated with the more

43:51

mature realization that

43:53

sex outside of an iterated relationship

43:56

is actually a net negative even

43:59

for the parties involved, even if they're

44:01

primarily motivated by their

44:03

own hedonism and then

44:05

hypothetically their own will. And so

44:07

it isn't inhibition that's regulating sex.

44:10

And it isn't top down social control.

44:13

It's the necessity of integrating sex,

44:16

which can be just a uneventual desire

44:18

into a much more sophisticated symphony

44:20

of social interactions. Now,

44:23

when that fails, inhibition

44:26

is necessary. Right? So if

44:28

you have someone who's acting in an anti

44:30

social manner, parading their sexuality,

44:33

insisting upon the short term gratification

44:35

at their own expense and not of others,

44:38

then compulsion might have

44:40

to be brought to bear. But that

44:42

indicates a failure of the proper developmental

44:44

pathway rather than a manifest station of

44:46

a necessarily oppressive patriarchy.

44:50

And that's a much more positive vision of

44:53

the regulation of sexual

44:55

behavior. It's more like ordered freedom

44:57

than inhibition. And that

45:00

also opens up the other another positive

45:03

idea, which is that, you know,

45:06

we've thought, toyed with the

45:08

idea that the birth control pill

45:10

meant that impulsive hedonism could

45:12

now rule and that that would be

45:14

the highest form of sexual expression. And

45:16

the idiot artists who jumped on that bandwagon

45:19

were certainly of that mind. But

45:22

what we're seeing instead is that young

45:24

men and women are turning in

45:26

all ever greater numbers to a

45:29

very casual pornography, especially

45:31

with regards to the boys, to the abandonment

45:34

of any relationships whatsoever. And then

45:36

interestingly enough, It

45:38

seems to much less sexual

45:41

activity in general. I think

45:43

it's thirty percent now of Japanese

45:46

I think it's thirty percent of Japanese

45:49

young people under thirty are

45:51

still versions. Thirty percent and

45:53

similar figures in South Korea. And

45:55

you can see the same proclivity emerging

45:57

in the west. So what's happening paradoxically

46:00

is that by removing all

46:02

the principles from

46:05

sexual interaction, not the inhibitions,

46:07

but the principles We're actually dooming

46:09

the sexual enterprise rather than facilitating

46:12

it even for the hedonists. So

46:15

Anyways, it's very useful to know that there's

46:17

an integration model rather than an inhibition

46:20

model. Right? Because it also stops

46:23

those who might oppose the

46:26

sexual revolution from just

46:28

being finger wagging conservative moralist.

46:31

Because you can say no, no, you're gonna

46:33

have a way better sex life. In

46:36

every possible way, if you actually like

46:38

fall in love with someone, and

46:41

have a long term relationship. And

46:43

I think the psychological, the statistical

46:45

data on that are pretty clear too. Most

46:48

single people don't have a lot of

46:49

sex. The phrase that I use in the books that describe this

46:52

exact phenomenon where you on the one hand have

46:54

hyper leap hypersexual public life.

46:56

You can walk down any street and see

46:59

women in lingerie on

47:01

posters or watch TV and there's

47:03

very explicit sex scenes address. On the one hand,

47:05

we've had this amazing ramping up of

47:08

sexuality in public life. But on the other

47:10

hand, exactly as you say, we have what's sometimes

47:13

called the sex recession, the fact that people are having

47:15

sex later, less frequently. I

47:17

think what's happening generally is people are having

47:20

probably more casual sex, but but

47:22

they're having sex less frequently. So

47:24

when they are having sex, it's more likely to be casual,

47:26

but they're not forming these long long standing relationships

47:29

And the the term that I use in the book is

47:31

Cultural Death Grips Syndrome taken

47:33

from the the quasi medical

47:35

term Death Grips Syndrome, which is

47:38

used by compulsive porn

47:40

users to describe the physical

47:42

experience impotence when you use

47:44

too much porn. You get to the point where you actually

47:46

can't be aroused by the physics or psychologically in

47:49

real life because you're so much born. And I

47:51

think cultural death grips syndrome is

47:54

is the counterpart to that where

47:57

On the one hand, we have this astounding availability

47:59

of sexual stimuli at the click of button

48:01

at any moment. Anything that you can imagine is available

48:04

on the Internet immediately. And that

48:06

seems to be demotivating

48:09

people to actually seek out meaningful sexual

48:11

relationships, which in the long term, are

48:14

vastly better for us in every possible

48:16

way, but we have

48:18

a culture enabled by technology, which

48:20

is very, very short term in every

48:22

way. So people are channeled towards

48:24

that kind of immediate relief that

48:27

that disincentivizes proper.

48:29

Yeah. It's I think the rule

48:31

is something like unearned surf

48:33

fight turns into revulsion. Right?

48:38

Right? It's it's too too much of a

48:40

good thing means that it's no longer

48:42

a good thing. And that

48:44

you know, and that goes along with an idea

48:47

too that there's something like optimal deprivation.

48:49

Right? I mean, look, let's say you've

48:51

just had a big banquet in someone sits

48:53

you down and says, well, now you have to eat five pounds

48:56

of dessert. It's like the

48:58

the first of all, that's not gonna be very attractive

49:00

proposition. And second of all, it might actually

49:02

make you ill. It's that everything has

49:04

to be in proper proportion. And one of

49:06

things we really haven't contended with at

49:08

all in our society is

49:11

How much desperation is necessary

49:13

on the sexual front to drive young men

49:15

and young women together? And the answer

49:18

is not zero. And the

49:20

problem with pornography, one of many

49:22

problems is that drives desperation

49:24

on the mail front down to zero. Now,

49:27

I know perfectly well from my

49:29

clinical experience that the

49:31

standard state of most

49:33

young men, especially under twenty,

49:36

let's say, is pretty

49:39

much terror in the face of a woman

49:41

who they're very attracted to. And

49:43

the reason for that is that There's

49:46

all sorts of reasons. But the primary reason

49:48

is the probability that any given male,

49:51

even one who's very attractive, let's

49:53

say, in multiple ways, is going to

49:55

be rejected by any given female,

49:58

especially a high value female who

50:00

has a lot of people attracted to or is extremely

50:03

high. So there are classic

50:05

psychological experiments showing this. You

50:07

know, if you if you send attractive

50:09

undergraduates out, to talk to other

50:12

undergraduates, to offer sexual

50:14

access. Say, well, you know, would

50:17

you be willing to have coffee with me? Would you be

50:19

willing to give me your phone number? Would you be willing

50:21

to come back to my apartment? If the

50:23

girls offer that, then whoever

50:26

they're offering that to on the mail front

50:28

will take them up on their offer.

50:31

But if the boys offer

50:33

that even when they're attractive, the

50:36

probability that their advances will

50:38

be rejected. Is extremely high.

50:40

And so young men face the uncomfortable

50:43

situation where even if they're

50:45

competent and will turn eventually into

50:47

useful men, which

50:49

isn't the status of most very

50:51

young men. The probability that

50:54

they'll be rejected is extremely high,

50:56

and then It's also the

50:58

case that there's little that's more psychologically

51:01

impactful than such

51:03

rejection, as especially if

51:05

it's undertaken by someone to whom there's a

51:07

genuine attraction. So that means that

51:09

boys are paralyzed

51:12

into terror. I think that's

51:15

not too exaggerated to term

51:17

by the mere fact of attractive

51:20

women And so, you know, they sloughed

51:23

that off and they make interrogating jokes and

51:25

so forth, try to get over that, but doesn't

51:28

change the basic reality. That also

51:30

means that a certain percentage of males and

51:32

it's not low really. It

51:34

could easily be. Like

51:37

thirty percent or just paralyzed into

51:39

utter stasis by

51:42

the possibility of rejection, especially

51:44

because they haven't been fortified against

51:46

it with their dependency inducing

51:49

upbringing unless they're driven forward

51:51

by a certain amount of desperation. Some

51:54

of which needs to be sexual. There's

51:56

actually they're never gonna go they're

51:58

never gonna break through that barrier. And

52:02

so then they can satisfy themselves

52:04

momentarily with pornography, and then that

52:06

turns into that host of problems you already described

52:09

is, Now they're training themselves, maybe

52:11

right from puberty, to be

52:14

impotent cock

52:16

hold lawyers, essentially.

52:19

So that's not good training. Then

52:21

they're training themselves to view

52:24

women as targets of

52:26

short term gratification. Stats like

52:28

training and psychopathy. And then

52:30

they're also interfering with their ability

52:32

to establish relationship

52:34

and also to perform in a

52:36

real environment. So all that

52:39

seems like, you know, all like a five dimensional

52:41

catastrophe, and that's going to get lot

52:43

worse in the next year, by the

52:45

way, because we haven't

52:48

seen anything on the pornography front

52:50

compared to what's gonna be coming down with

52:52

the advent of AI. Because

52:54

now what's gonna happen real soon

52:56

is that this is already underway.

53:00

So imagine a sign up service where

53:02

you can talk to a very attractive young

53:04

woman. So and

53:07

she's a AI. Right? So

53:10

she can be as attractive as you want her to be

53:12

and tuned exactly to your preferences. Okay?

53:15

So now, there's

53:17

already a service offering this by the way.

53:19

So now you have a friend and that friend

53:21

can keep track of your conversations and

53:24

especially if you're loaning someone isolated, that

53:26

might be the best friend you've ever had

53:28

and certainly the most attractive person you've

53:30

ever talked to. Now, it's not real,

53:33

but, you know, men are pretty damn

53:35

visual. So it's gone

53:37

a long ways towards real. And then, you know,

53:39

for your subscription fee,

53:43

you can talk to the woman nude and

53:45

then the whole avenue of sexual

53:48

display is open to

53:49

you. And so, God only knows

53:51

what that's going to do. Yes.

53:53

As sex drybulk, so the next step.

53:56

When you have a a Yeah. Yeah.

53:57

Well, and then the integration of those two things.

53:59

Yeah. Yeah. That'll be -- And

54:01

that -- that'll be -- And then you -- And then

54:03

you -- -- get this -- you won't have finish situation where

54:06

men young men can feel as if

54:09

they are winning at

54:11

life. Right? With their

54:13

sex robot who's found them all the cues that

54:15

suggest fitness. But in fact,

54:17

you know, they don't need to wash. They don't need to have a

54:19

job. They don't need to do anything productive with their

54:21

lives. Because the sex robot doesn't

54:23

care. Only fans, I think, is a

54:25

step along this path because what only

54:28

fans often

54:28

Yeah. Different at least. Not just pornography.

54:31

It offers a parasocial relationship. It

54:33

gives the impression to -- Yeah. -- customers

54:36

that this woman cares about them, remembers

54:39

his birthday remembers his children's names,

54:41

all of this stuff. And but

54:43

it's a whole obviously mirage and it's one that's

54:45

purchased.

54:48

And it it it it completely That's completely the

54:50

wrong obstruction. Right.

54:53

Well, and that that's narcissistic kicks

54:55

flotation on the part of the females

54:58

with anti social personality traits.

55:00

And often, what would you say, aided

55:03

and embedded by quasi psychopathic pimps?

55:05

Electronic pimps and, you know, those only

55:08

found women that you made a very good point

55:10

there. Those are actually Android's. Right?

55:13

Because they're not women. Now you might

55:15

say, what the hell are you talking about? Doctor Peterson,

55:17

obviously, they're women. It's like, no, they're not.

55:19

They're machine women hybrids. And

55:22

the machine is the technology that

55:24

can broadcast their image to millions of people.

55:26

So you're not a woman anymore if

55:28

you're in a million men's bedrooms at

55:30

the same time. You're

55:33

a woman machine hybrid. Now it's

55:35

virtualized obviously because it's

55:37

two dimensional and it's not embodied

55:39

in the form of a robot. But The idea

55:42

that that's not an android means that

55:44

you're an idiot. That's what it means. It's obviously

55:46

an android and there there

55:48

is definitely that form of

55:50

parasitism on the female part. You

55:52

know, these women have embodied capital. That's

55:55

a good way of thinking about it. So they're young,

55:57

don't have economic resources, but they're young

55:59

and beautiful. And that's an economic

56:01

resource. Make no mistake about

56:03

it. In fact, it's the most

56:06

Well, it's the highest possible form

56:09

of wealth. This is another thing

56:11

that the Marxist types get real wrong with

56:13

their economic analysis because If

56:15

you took, let's say, a hyper

56:17

rich eighty year old woman, and

56:20

you said, well, you give away

56:22

ninety nine percent of your four and now

56:24

you inhabit the body that you had

56:26

when you were twenty. And then

56:29

we could add to that, the possibility of being

56:31

stellarly beautiful, the probability that

56:33

that woman would trade everything she has

56:35

for that opportunity, you know, assuming

56:38

she hasn't become dis

56:40

enamored of life is extraordinarily

56:42

high. So that also means that on the

56:44

female side and this is happening continually,

56:48

female exploitation

56:51

can take place with

56:53

regard to men, just like male exploitation

56:56

takes place, with regard

56:58

to women. And those women are not

57:00

doing other women a favor either by

57:02

monopolizing the

57:03

marketplace, let's say. No.

57:06

I think that one of the ways in which women

57:08

are hurt by the

57:10

pretense that is

57:13

widely practiced that men

57:15

and women are psychologically the same and that male

57:17

and female sexuality is the same is

57:20

that It's very easy for a young

57:22

good foreman to mistake

57:25

male sexual desire for high

57:27

regard and to and

57:29

to I think that

57:31

really there are two parallel tracks

57:35

when it comes to male sexual desire

57:37

for women. There is the the short term and the long

57:39

term. And they are not at all the same

57:41

and that being very

57:44

highly desired on the short term track does

57:46

not necessarily translate into being

57:48

very high highly designed on the long term track. In

57:50

fact, sometimes quite the opposite. And

57:52

I think that the main era that women

57:54

are making with thinking that only

57:56

fans is a is a quick buck. Not

57:58

only is the fact that only fans is enormously

58:00

unequal and actually there are very few people

58:02

who are making any real money and generally the ones who

58:04

making lots of money -- Of course. -- who are already famous

58:07

before they join the platform and so on. It's

58:09

also the fact that there is the internet is

58:11

forever and these images are out there

58:13

and it damages your long term meeting

58:15

prospects to have been

58:17

on only fans. And actually, I

58:19

mean, it is clearly the case that female beauty

58:21

is incredibly valuable resource. But

58:23

I I think maybe the way in which it needs

58:25

to be understood distinctly from economic

58:28

power, is it just to some extent the caries?

58:30

You can acquire enormous power

58:33

as a beautiful woman. Through

58:35

access to typically male

58:38

political and economic power. But

58:41

it doesn't last forever. If you're able to secure

58:43

a very high status husband for instance, and

58:45

he commits you for life, you've translated

58:48

your beauty into real and lasting

58:50

power. If you're not able to do that, then

58:52

you will very quickly, you know, age thirty

58:54

five, age forty, age out of having

58:56

any access to that kind of power, and then you will potentially

58:59

be paying the costs they stay down the line. So

59:02

there are some women who become very wealthy and only

59:04

fans. But in general, I would say

59:06

that it's very, very poor strategy. And,

59:08

you know, as

59:09

ever, it is presented as a kind of short

59:11

term boom. Yeah. Well,

59:13

it it suffers from the same prorito

59:15

distribution problem is any productive enterprise,

59:18

creative enterprise, which is a small minority

59:20

of people will rake in all the money, like a

59:22

tiny tiny proportion. It'll be

59:24

a tenth of one percent they'll

59:26

make a spectacular amount of money, and

59:28

everyone else will strive away in the

59:31

dirt, scrabbling way for virtually

59:33

nothing. And then, as you said, even those

59:35

women who have managed to make that

59:37

successful are dooming

59:40

themselves in all likelihood to remaining

59:42

only attractive to psychopathic and

59:44

exploitative males because the

59:46

rest of them won't be particularly happy

59:49

with that background. So, yeah, it's not

59:51

a good iterating medium to long

59:53

term strategy. Let's talk about consent

59:55

a little bit because that's a tricky issue

59:58

and it ties back to this notion

1:00:00

we were discussing earlier about the proclivity

1:00:02

of the radical left to ensure to

1:00:05

insist upon something approximating a

1:00:07

contract, which I do think is very comical

1:00:09

that, you know, that's the same as,

1:00:11

well, maybe consent

1:00:13

means getting married and And

1:00:16

actually, I think you can make a case for that.

1:00:18

So, you know, what do you see that happening on

1:00:20

campuses very frequently? And

1:00:22

we should delve into the details of this, is

1:00:24

that a young man and a young

1:00:27

woman will sleep together, but it's usually

1:00:29

at a party, and it's usually a drunken

1:00:31

party. And so one

1:00:33

of the things that people don't know, because

1:00:36

they don't want to, is that almost

1:00:38

all criminal behavior that

1:00:40

involves coversion is

1:00:43

facilitated by alcohol.

1:00:46

So half of people who are murdered

1:00:48

are drunk HALF OF THE MURDERERS ARE DRUNK.

1:00:51

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1:00:53

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1:00:58

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1:01:01

in many ways, feminist movement, Aridoki.

1:01:03

That's not how it was normally expressed, but the right temperance

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1:01:08

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1:02:13

Right. Right. Right. Well, I know on campuses,

1:02:16

date rape, etcetera. And

1:02:18

unwanted social, sexual

1:02:20

advance, and alcohol go

1:02:22

hand in hand, but of course, you

1:02:24

have the liberty and culture on campuses

1:02:27

sexually and also behaviorally. And so many

1:02:29

campuses are simultaneously hotbeds

1:02:32

of, you know, sexual investigation

1:02:34

and trouble. And drunken

1:02:37

Dionysia and partying. And, you

1:02:39

know, I think there's a time and a place for that,

1:02:42

and that's probably when you're young and

1:02:44

hopefully, you managed to win your way through it.

1:02:46

But as a basis for stable society,

1:02:49

it falls short.

1:02:51

But here's here's one of the problems it really

1:02:53

brings up. So now you have women,

1:02:55

and hypothetically, they have control of the reproductive

1:02:58

function. And they

1:03:00

can go out and drink, and

1:03:02

then they can find themselves waking

1:03:05

up in the morning And not

1:03:07

even remembering because

1:03:10

alcohol really interferes with memory

1:03:12

consolidation, not even at relatively minor

1:03:14

doses, not even really remembering how

1:03:16

the hell they got there. Now,

1:03:19

especially if there are women who've been mistreated

1:03:21

in the past and that's not uncommon,

1:03:24

There is a real question that emerges

1:03:27

about whether or not they consented.

1:03:29

And it's very complicated because it's

1:03:31

certainly one of the strategies that desperate

1:03:33

young men use to

1:03:36

entice foolish young

1:03:38

women into their beds is to get them drunk.

1:03:41

And anybody who doesn't know that is

1:03:43

blind full. And so

1:03:45

now and so if you have a party

1:03:47

and you're a college student and

1:03:49

you're male and you invite some women over

1:03:52

including the ones that you might be attracted

1:03:54

to and you serve copious amounts

1:03:56

of alcohol and you know perfectly

1:03:58

well that if you get a young woman drunk, you're more

1:04:00

likely to get her into bed. Are

1:04:02

you manipulating her or is

1:04:05

she an autonomous entity

1:04:07

fully capable of making her own sovereign

1:04:09

decisions who knows the ground rules

1:04:12

of the game when she enters the door

1:04:14

and is there a for responsible

1:04:16

for her own actions? And the answer is

1:04:18

a little of column a and a little column

1:04:20

b. And that makes the whole issue

1:04:23

of consent extraordinarily complex.

1:04:25

You know, if you consent well

1:04:27

drunk and you regret it

1:04:29

the next day, is that

1:04:31

true consent? And of course, that's being thought

1:04:33

out in legal minefields all

1:04:36

across North America. And I think the reason

1:04:38

it's being thought out thought out is because

1:04:40

it's actually a complicated question. What

1:04:43

doesn't mean to give

1:04:46

consent

1:04:47

How old do you have to be? Like, if

1:04:49

you have three drinks, can you give informed

1:04:51

consent? Well,

1:04:53

maybe you couldn't for a medical procedure. Could

1:04:56

you if you had one drink? Well,

1:05:00

I studied the effects of alcohol for

1:05:02

years. On cognitive

1:05:04

ability and function. And it's

1:05:06

a highly disinhibiting drug,

1:05:08

which is why people like it because it

1:05:11

It removes the regulatory

1:05:14

constraint from he'd hedonic behavior,

1:05:16

including aggressive behavior. Slots

1:05:18

of fun, and it It

1:05:22

amplifies social ability for many

1:05:24

people. It's got an opiate effect

1:05:26

that's painkilling and a stimulant effect

1:05:28

that's like cocaine, and it's an anxiety

1:05:30

reducer. So, it's a

1:05:32

killer party drug. And so,

1:05:35

you add some alcohol into the mix and you

1:05:37

think, well, Did the

1:05:39

young woman give consent? And

1:05:41

the answer to that is, well,

1:05:43

what the hell is consent? And

1:05:46

then one answer is, well, you have to have a legal

1:05:48

document, and then you think, well, you might as well just

1:05:50

get married that because that's the whole point. And

1:05:52

but here, here's an open question. Like, I

1:05:55

really wonder I really

1:05:57

think this might be true. Marriage

1:06:00

is consent. That's

1:06:03

what marriage means. Marriage is full

1:06:06

informed consent, and it's the

1:06:08

only form of full informed consent.

1:06:10

All things being equal, given how

1:06:12

dangerous sex is in the most fundamental

1:06:15

sense, given how socially destabilizing

1:06:18

it is, given how difficult it is

1:06:20

to integrate into a full personality

1:06:22

across time. Given how much

1:06:24

is at risk for children and women in

1:06:26

particular, that the

1:06:29

issue of consent is so important that it basically

1:06:32

defaults into something approximating marriage

1:06:34

by necessity. I

1:06:37

I agree. The only adviser I would place

1:06:39

on that is that one of the I would

1:06:41

say one of the really profound successes of twentieth

1:06:43

century feminism was in

1:06:46

re conceptualizing rape, which

1:06:48

in most traditional legal systems, is understood

1:06:50

as a crime against a

1:06:52

woman's male kin. Re

1:06:55

conceptualizing it as a crime against the

1:06:57

woman herself, which therefore makes

1:06:59

it marital rape. Explicable

1:07:04

in a way that it isn't in the old model. It clearly

1:07:06

is the case that it is possible to be to be

1:07:08

rich within marriage. I think it's also

1:07:10

absolutely the case that

1:07:12

any We are forced

1:07:15

to draw bright lines when it comes to the

1:07:17

law. We're forced to say that, you know, the

1:07:19

age of consensus sixteen, that

1:07:21

x the amount of alcohol in

1:07:23

the bloodstream constitutes, you know, about

1:07:25

the legal driving limit, etcetera, etcetera. We're

1:07:27

forced to draw bright lines have to also recognize

1:07:29

and we all know intuitively that those bright lines are

1:07:32

fallible and that there is a huge

1:07:34

amount of gray space. Between

1:07:36

what is legally permissible and what is good.

1:07:39

And I think that the problem with basing any

1:07:42

kind of cisco sexual

1:07:44

ethics on consent as a bare

1:07:46

minimum is it becomes impossible to

1:07:48

talk about gray space. And what you often find actually

1:07:51

is women particularly during me

1:07:53

too, women who would talk

1:07:55

about distressing

1:07:58

sexual experiences, which actually normally

1:08:00

didn't meet the legal threshold. For

1:08:02

being criminal, but which they nevertheless

1:08:04

experienced as upsetting, as

1:08:07

as disturbing, as whatever, often

1:08:09

involving alcohol, as you say, briefly

1:08:11

on that point, one of the things that a lot of people don't know

1:08:14

is that there's a cognitive bias in men

1:08:16

where they tend to overestimate a woman's

1:08:18

sexual interest in them. And that

1:08:21

and it's not the other way around. And that bias

1:08:23

is is exaggerated by alcohol. So

1:08:26

you have men who are very drunk and who really

1:08:28

do read signs of sexual

1:08:30

interest from women who are, in fact, not such interested in

1:08:32

them and who are incapacitated by alcohol, and

1:08:34

it all ends up being under, you know, we're talking

1:08:36

about teenagers who have raised on porn and have

1:08:38

that, you know, It's a complete disaster. Like, the whole cauldron

1:08:41

mix is basically perfectly designed

1:08:43

to produce these scenarios. And often,

1:08:45

you have women who are coming out of these scenarios feeling

1:08:47

really distressed. But they they

1:08:49

don't have the moral language to talk

1:08:51

about this because they don't wanna talk about it. They don't wanna

1:08:53

use terms like shivalrous. They don't wanna talk about

1:08:55

general men. They don't wanna talk even about morality

1:08:57

and good and bad, what they have in

1:08:59

their vocabulary toolkit is

1:09:02

consent. And so you will say that that

1:09:04

XYZ encounter wasn't consensual, whereas

1:09:06

actually that's not best way of describing what went

1:09:08

wrong. And trying to

1:09:10

just further embed the consent model,

1:09:12

which often just what consent workshops

1:09:15

are really is just they're sort of their

1:09:17

attempts at ideological interventions. The

1:09:19

idea is that we, you know, we sit kids down and

1:09:21

we told them words if one syllable don't rape each

1:09:23

other. But of course, we know that's not how

1:09:25

social interactions work. That's not actually a kind of

1:09:27

intervention that's really gonna make a difference because

1:09:30

the the the would be writers aren't listening for wanting,

1:09:32

and also because that's, you know, the complexity

1:09:34

of sexual relationships is just so

1:09:36

so too difficult to sum up in that kind of

1:09:39

simple message. But

1:09:41

that's all we've got. And so

1:09:43

and so this emphasis is just on reiterating

1:09:46

and reiterating.

1:09:48

If you start talking about unwanted sexual

1:09:50

advance as a failure of something like

1:09:52

chivalry. You sound like a transplant from

1:09:55

the thirteenth century, but it's it's definitely

1:09:57

the case. It's also definitely

1:09:59

the case that unsophisticated males

1:10:02

are not very good at reading, what

1:10:05

would you say? Anything

1:10:07

but explicit signals of

1:10:09

no Right? Sophisticated

1:10:12

people can tell by

1:10:15

a polite glance, let's say

1:10:17

whether or not interest is being

1:10:20

manifested, and then they play a

1:10:22

very slow incremental game,

1:10:24

which is romance by the way, checking

1:10:27

each other out for consent

1:10:29

at every stage, and you cannot

1:10:31

replace that with a rule governed system.

1:10:34

The attempt to do that is first of all going to

1:10:36

be in producing tyrannical and awkward. And

1:10:38

second, it's putting the cart before the

1:10:40

horse. The unsophisticated

1:10:43

people aren't gonna be able to use that system anyway.

1:10:46

And then you have like three people,

1:10:48

you have a crowd in the bedroom,

1:10:50

you have the young man, and you have the young woman,

1:10:52

and you have the whole idiot the

1:10:55

lengths of DEI beer crowds. They're

1:10:57

trying to mediate the social relationship, and

1:11:00

that's just not gonna work at all. And

1:11:02

Here's another thing I've been thinking about. I talked

1:11:04

to my wife who I know you talk to on her

1:11:06

podcast about this quite a bit.

1:11:09

So here's an interesting idea. So

1:11:13

males compete for status and the

1:11:16

essential dimension of competition

1:11:18

that differentiates them from

1:11:21

women, I would say, is something like productive

1:11:24

economic generosity. It's

1:11:26

something like that. Now, it's not like women aren't

1:11:28

productive, and it's not like they're not generous,

1:11:30

but the ground rules are different. Women

1:11:33

are looking to equalize the economic sparity

1:11:35

that's attendant upon differential

1:11:39

cost for reproduction. And so men

1:11:41

are evaluated on the basis of their potential

1:11:44

for economic, reciprocity,

1:11:49

and generosity. And that gives

1:11:51

them status, males. And

1:11:53

so women peel from the top of that

1:11:55

hierarchy. Basically, they let males

1:11:58

competed out on the economic front,

1:12:00

and then women select from the top down.

1:12:03

And the higher the status, a

1:12:05

woman has the higher the

1:12:07

met the status of the

1:12:09

mate that she can obtain. Now

1:12:12

that brings up a question which is

1:12:14

what gives women's status, and that's

1:12:16

a really hard question. Because

1:12:18

first of all, we know that economic viability

1:12:21

is not one of those things. So

1:12:23

male economic viability and sexual

1:12:26

success are correlated in sayingly,

1:12:28

highly. It's like point six, point seven,

1:12:30

crazily high. One of the most powerful

1:12:33

single variable relationships that

1:12:35

you can find in all of the social science far

1:12:38

higher than the relationship between intelligence

1:12:40

and life success, for example. But

1:12:43

the correlation between female

1:12:45

economic viability and sexual attractiveness

1:12:47

is lower than zero. So

1:12:50

it's actually slightly negative. So it's

1:12:52

a massive sexual dimorphism. So

1:12:55

then you ask, well, what gives female status?

1:12:57

And well, one of the answers is obviously

1:13:00

associated with beauty

1:13:02

and reproductive capacity

1:13:05

and and sexual attractiveness. Those things

1:13:07

all tangled together extraordinarily tightly.

1:13:09

But that's not the only thing I don't think.

1:13:11

And so this I think is really worth thinking

1:13:14

about. So imagine that

1:13:16

You have an attractive girl and a

1:13:19

variety of relatively high status

1:13:21

men are chasing her. Now,

1:13:23

you might ask, well, how do they evaluate her

1:13:26

status. And I think

1:13:29

they evaluate her status by

1:13:32

her ability to say no. So

1:13:36

imagine, you know, a high status person

1:13:38

offers himself or herself

1:13:41

to you. And of you if

1:13:43

you're of lower status, you're gonna say yes

1:13:45

right away. But one

1:13:47

marker of higher status is, well,

1:13:50

no, I don't need what you're selling. Yeah.

1:13:52

But what I'm selling is great. Yeah.

1:13:54

But I have so many offers that I'm not

1:13:56

inclined to take your offer

1:13:58

because I have options. And

1:14:01

it's no on the part of women that signal

1:14:03

I really believe this is the case. It's

1:14:06

voluntary know on the

1:14:08

part of women that signals their

1:14:10

status. And so I don't think young women

1:14:12

know this at all because they wanna know

1:14:14

how to compete with men, let's say, in the power

1:14:16

game. And That's

1:14:18

a tough question because women are smaller

1:14:21

and they're not as physically powerful. And

1:14:24

economic Prowess isn't

1:14:26

as attractive to them and it doesn't make them

1:14:28

more viable on the marketing on the mating

1:14:30

market. So the whole game that

1:14:32

women are playing is way different than the game men

1:14:34

is playing. So you might say, well, how do women

1:14:36

equalize the battle? And I think a huge part

1:14:39

of that is by reserving

1:14:41

to themselves the right to say no.

1:14:43

And you see this People are

1:14:45

stumbling towards this realization even

1:14:48

on the radical leftist front because they

1:14:50

keep saying no means no.

1:14:53

And it's like, well, yeah, I wish it was that

1:14:55

clear, but at a drunken frat party,

1:14:57

what constitutes no is not self evident.

1:14:59

But a clear no on the part of a

1:15:02

woman And I also

1:15:04

think that there's every reason to think

1:15:06

and plenty of evidence that that's also one

1:15:08

of the things that makes men desirable

1:15:11

in the face of that makes women

1:15:13

desirable in the eyes of men,

1:15:15

especially if the men might

1:15:17

be enticed into pursuing a long term

1:15:19

mating strategy. You know, they'll

1:15:21

push on women and see. But

1:15:24

will you say yes right away? And

1:15:26

if the answer is yes, especially true for high

1:15:28

status men. If the answer is immediately yes,

1:15:31

then the guy assumes, well, you're not your

1:15:34

status really isn't that high. You can't

1:15:36

say no to me. But if the woman

1:15:38

says, no, even

1:15:40

to you, the guy thinks, oh, well, you know,

1:15:43

look at that. You

1:15:45

can imagine there's some narcissism, not

1:15:48

even though I have everything to offer that I

1:15:50

have to offer, She's

1:15:52

just not falling over. You know?

1:15:54

Maybe there's something there that requires

1:15:56

further exploration. You

1:15:59

know, when you even see this in female pornography,

1:16:01

it's so interesting because the classic female

1:16:03

pornographic story is

1:16:06

You know, there's this extremely attractive,

1:16:08

highly productive man who's got

1:16:10

a real capacity for aggression. He's

1:16:12

a pirate or a surgeon or

1:16:14

a werewolf or a vampire or

1:16:17

a billionaire. Those are the fundamental

1:16:19

female pornographic tropes.

1:16:22

And he has women out his disposal. But

1:16:25

this woman is shielded

1:16:27

off from him and they dance around

1:16:30

each other for a long time, which essentially

1:16:32

means that she's saying no, and he's

1:16:34

finally enticed into a relationship with

1:16:36

her where he sacrifices all,

1:16:39

you know, his access to all other women, and

1:16:41

then they have hot steamy sex. And so

1:16:43

you know, most of female pornography is

1:16:45

extended foreplay and

1:16:47

that's this romantic dance of

1:16:49

no followed by, you know, a

1:16:52

very spectacular consummation. And

1:16:54

that certainly mirrors the well,

1:16:57

it it mirrors the optimal

1:16:59

female reproductive pathway, obviously,

1:17:02

because otherwise it would be the hardest pornographic

1:17:04

fantasy. But it's based in I really

1:17:06

think it's based in reality. And so I don't

1:17:09

know how it is that you communicate to young women

1:17:11

that especially if they are of

1:17:13

high female status, but even if

1:17:15

they're not, that the most potent

1:17:19

Our tool they have in their armament with

1:17:21

regard to status, with regard to being

1:17:23

taken seriously is their

1:17:26

ability and willingness to say no.

1:17:29

A question that

1:17:32

I've had a lot since the book was published.

1:17:35

Is is there a

1:17:37

sexual counter revolution underway? My

1:17:41

answer to that is a guarded Yes,

1:17:44

a bit. I think what's happened

1:17:47

is that we've ended up in this very

1:17:49

historically unusual situation where

1:17:52

female virginity is not prized. Basically

1:17:54

every society, hugely raises female opportunity

1:17:57

and female sexual restraints,

1:18:00

the ability to say no for obvious reasons

1:18:02

because illegitimate child

1:18:04

is a disaster, not only for the woman, but for her family,

1:18:07

for the community, doesn't, you know, there's a need to be

1:18:10

to gatekeeping, young woman. The

1:18:12

pill does away the pill the pill does away with

1:18:14

that and the pill also occurs at exactly the same

1:18:17

time as this huge political shift

1:18:19

and technological shift. And and we we

1:18:21

now have attempted to

1:18:25

reconceptualize women as being sort of

1:18:27

like slightly smaller men who basically have

1:18:29

the same sexual drives and preferences

1:18:31

and so on. We know that this isn't true, but we've given a

1:18:33

good go. And many of the young

1:18:35

women who who

1:18:38

read my book have been raised

1:18:40

with this expectation and have attempted to have

1:18:42

sex like men and have invariably found that it actually

1:18:44

makes them miserable. But we also get

1:18:46

trapped in this painful

1:18:49

strategic impasse where

1:18:51

when the expectation is that you will have sex very early

1:18:53

on in a relationship and that withholding

1:18:55

sex is not socially

1:18:58

permissible. It's a it's a it's

1:19:00

a weird sign. It's a sign that you're

1:19:03

unusual that you're not playing by the normal rules.

1:19:05

It puts you at a disadvantage. You know, if you are a

1:19:07

young woman who doesn't want to be putting out on a first,

1:19:09

second, third date, you're already disadvantaged in

1:19:11

the dating market, early stuff until recently. But

1:19:14

one of the things that I've noticed going,

1:19:16

giving talks

1:19:18

on over the country is I

1:19:21

I've often had women come up to me afterwards and

1:19:23

say that they they like my message. They

1:19:25

agree that they are that they have implementing

1:19:28

this in their own lives, that they are not having casual

1:19:30

sex, that they are not giving into the social

1:19:32

pressure. And one of the things I've noticed about these women

1:19:34

is they tend to be very beautiful. And

1:19:37

I think that that's not coincidental. I think

1:19:39

it's because they are the women who have the

1:19:41

greatest power

1:19:43

within this system and are therefore

1:19:45

the ones who can most easily opt out

1:19:48

of the current set of expectations and

1:19:52

can say no without suffering penalty for

1:19:54

it. So I think those women, many of them

1:19:56

are already doing that because they've gotten

1:19:58

onto the fact that this is actually a miserable system,

1:20:00

which causes them harm. And

1:20:03

my hope

1:20:05

is that that will accelerate

1:20:09

as other women imitate them? Well, you

1:20:11

know, if if if it's the beautiful high standards

1:20:13

women, who begin that trend,

1:20:15

the rest of the women will follow. Because

1:20:17

trends always start in the aristocracy and

1:20:20

trend downwards. Now, okay, so here's

1:20:22

another thought. And this

1:20:24

has to do with the built

1:20:27

in antagonism, let's say,

1:20:29

and hopefully eventual cooperation of

1:20:32

the sexes on the sexes tool front. So

1:20:35

women are checking out men all the time, and

1:20:38

women have all sorts of tricks for doing

1:20:40

that. They might be provocative, for

1:20:42

example, because they want to test a man to

1:20:44

see if he can control his temper, and no

1:20:46

one likes to talk about that. But any

1:20:48

smart woman is gonna do that because she wants

1:20:50

to find out if her partner, she wants

1:20:52

someone who has the capacity for aggression.

1:20:55

But she wants someone who can control it

1:20:57

because a man will be provoked by

1:20:59

children. And if he can't control his temper,

1:21:02

then he's going to be aggressive. And so

1:21:04

She has to check that out and you don't check that out

1:21:06

by having a formal conversation. You

1:21:09

check that out the same way children check

1:21:11

out their parents which is by harassing them and

1:21:13

seeing what happens. And so

1:21:15

and then men

1:21:17

check women out. So maybe

1:21:19

one of the things a man wants to do if he's gonna

1:21:21

commit to a long term relationship as he wants

1:21:24

to find out, well, does this woman

1:21:26

have what it takes to actually commit

1:21:29

to a long term relationship? And

1:21:31

what that means in part is that he has

1:21:33

to know that she's capable of

1:21:35

controlling her impulsive desires.

1:21:38

Right? Because otherwise, she's gonna stray.

1:21:41

And that's actually a worse problem for

1:21:43

men than it is for women. And

1:21:45

and we should return to this idea that

1:21:47

rape is a violation of male

1:21:49

property rights in moment because I wanna explore

1:21:52

that a bit. So you

1:21:54

can tell a woman has control over her

1:21:56

impulses if she can say no. Right?

1:21:59

I mean, it's way of testing. So imagine

1:22:02

that you're you're a young

1:22:04

guy with plenty to offer and you're a heart young

1:22:06

woman and you meet and you're pretty

1:22:08

attracted to each other. Now both

1:22:10

of you are gonna fall under

1:22:12

this way of short term

1:22:14

temptation, obviously. Now

1:22:17

the question is, are

1:22:20

both of you or either of you capable

1:22:22

of being mature in

1:22:25

your regard for your iterated future

1:22:27

self and the potential of a long

1:22:29

term relationship. And the way the man

1:22:31

checks that out is by seeing if girl will say

1:22:33

no. And maybe he checks

1:22:36

out even harder because he does everything

1:22:38

he can to seduce her. And

1:22:41

she still says, no. You know what? It works.

1:22:43

And he knows she's interested and she still says,

1:22:45

no. Well, then he can conclude that

1:22:47

she's capable of keeping her

1:22:49

pants on. Let's say.

1:22:52

And that's actually something that you need

1:22:54

to conclude if you're going to commit to long term

1:22:57

partnership, obviously, on the

1:22:59

mail front because you want to be assured

1:23:01

of paternity. And

1:23:03

so, you know, these are very intense games that

1:23:06

men and women play with each other and they're

1:23:08

no holds barred games because everything's

1:23:10

at stake. But again, it devolves

1:23:13

down to this issue of being able

1:23:15

to say no, even under intense temptation

1:23:18

and provocation. So

1:23:21

I don't know how it is that we start teaching

1:23:23

young women or we can just start

1:23:25

start by not lying to them about absolutely

1:23:27

everything, which is what we do now. But

1:23:30

I don't know how it is that young

1:23:32

women can be taught that the most

1:23:34

potent weapon

1:23:36

they have is their ability

1:23:38

to say no, you know, and that that's actually

1:23:41

a a weapon of formidable

1:23:44

force and that it does nothing

1:23:46

but confer status upon them. You

1:23:48

know, and the fact that you said already that what

1:23:50

you see is that it's the obviously

1:23:53

high status, high desirable women who

1:23:55

are figuring this out first is an

1:23:57

indication of that because obviously

1:23:59

they're the ones that that are

1:24:01

going to be able to wield that power

1:24:04

in the most effective possible manner.

1:24:06

That doesn't mean that it's not useful for

1:24:09

women farther down the hierarchy. And you know,

1:24:11

you also said something about women

1:24:14

are enjoined to believe

1:24:16

they have to be sexually accessible to make

1:24:18

themselves successful on the

1:24:21

dating market, but I don't believe that's true at all.

1:24:23

I think that's a myth.

1:24:25

I think that

1:24:27

you know, if you have nothing else to offer

1:24:29

at all but immediate sexual access,

1:24:31

that might be your only game. But if

1:24:33

you have anything at all to offer and that

1:24:35

is what you offer. You're actually gonna be thrown

1:24:37

out of the mating game really quickly because the guys

1:24:40

will just be they'll just be turned

1:24:42

off and they won't call you back. You'll get what are they called

1:24:44

out ghosted? I can know time

1:24:46

flat. You know, and the girls might

1:24:48

ask, well, you know, I gave the guy what he wanted.

1:24:51

Why didn't he call me? And the answer is no.

1:24:53

You gave his impulsive

1:24:56

libido what it wanted. And

1:24:58

that's what you established a relationship with,

1:25:01

but you completely sacrificed any

1:25:03

possibility at all of being attracted of

1:25:06

you being attractive to his

1:25:08

more mature and potentially

1:25:12

long term productive and sophisticated self.

1:25:15

You make yourself attractive to that by saying

1:25:17

not on your life joker. You

1:25:19

know, I'm taking myself too seriously

1:25:21

for that and my future and my future

1:25:23

children and even our future relationship.

1:25:26

And all that signaled by, no.

1:25:28

And then it's complicated too, A.

1:25:30

Because You get the prude

1:25:32

problem. An creature

1:25:36

observed a century and a half ago

1:25:38

that a lot of what passed

1:25:40

for morality, it was nothing but cowardice. You

1:25:43

know, people were afraid to do something, afraid

1:25:45

to be aggressive, afraid to be sexual.

1:25:47

And they passed their fear off as

1:25:49

morality. And prudes are sort

1:25:51

of like that as they they don't wanna have anything

1:25:54

to do with sex, but it's not because they've made moral

1:25:56

decision or because they have strength characters just

1:25:58

because they're afraid. And because

1:26:00

that's true, it's easy to parody women

1:26:03

who say no or men for that

1:26:05

matter. As prudes,

1:26:08

you know, as old fashioned conservative

1:26:10

prudes who are just terrified of sex and, you

1:26:12

know, sometimes that is true. But

1:26:15

but you can be sophisticated as hell

1:26:17

and say no. And I don't

1:26:19

think there's anything more attractive to a

1:26:21

man. Than a sophisticated woman

1:26:23

who knows how to say no. Like that's

1:26:26

that's top of the stack as far as men

1:26:28

are concerned. And they'll do any they'll

1:26:30

do everything to test the

1:26:35

what would you call the thickness of that boundary?

1:26:38

So I don't know how you tell that

1:26:40

to young women. I don't even think men can

1:26:42

probably. It's

1:26:45

because the pill disrupts it all. Right?

1:26:47

Because the pill, it doesn't reduce

1:26:49

to zero, but it does massively reduce the

1:26:51

risks associated with sex, the physical

1:26:53

risks, not the psychological risks. And

1:26:56

so with those physical risks removed,

1:26:58

I mean, I have a fascinating quote

1:27:01

from a woman who was who was in

1:27:03

her twenties at in nineteen sixty two when the Pill

1:27:05

arrives. And she said that the

1:27:08

the advent of the pill meant that it suddenly

1:27:10

so much more difficult to say no to men because

1:27:12

what you used to be able to say was,

1:27:15

no, no, no, we can't because of because

1:27:17

I might get pregnant. With that no

1:27:19

longer available, and what we're dealing with here, of

1:27:21

course, is the agreeability gap between men and

1:27:23

women. Women find it difficult to be

1:27:26

assertive. And if they can't

1:27:28

call on that kind of very clear

1:27:30

risk as an as an appeal, then

1:27:32

what are they left with? No. I just don't wanna have sex

1:27:34

with you. And so and that's a really

1:27:36

painful thing to say that it wouldn't hurt

1:27:38

feelings. There's also, I think, an element of women being

1:27:40

slightly physically frightened.

1:27:41

Right. Well, it boils down to one or so rejection

1:27:43

then. Hey.

1:27:44

Yeah. Yeah. Which is which

1:27:46

is a painful thing because I've That's the only excuse

1:27:49

you have left. Yeah. Absolutely.

1:27:51

Well, here's something else that's that's

1:27:53

worth pondering. You know, you

1:27:55

talked about one of the advantages of the

1:27:57

sexual revolution was the transformation

1:28:00

of the idea that rape was a property

1:28:02

crime, let's say, into a crime

1:28:04

against the woman herself. And

1:28:06

I would say, look, I have plenty

1:28:09

of sympathy for that perspective. And

1:28:11

I think it's fundamentally true. But but

1:28:14

I'm gonna push back because, you know, all

1:28:16

of this is all very complicated. You

1:28:18

know, it isn't obvious to me

1:28:21

that that offers women enough

1:28:23

defense. You

1:28:25

know, and so the counterargument might be

1:28:27

if untraveled

1:28:30

sexual access to a young woman

1:28:33

is a crime. In

1:28:36

order for that to be recognized as a crime

1:28:38

properly, it has to

1:28:40

be viewed as

1:28:43

something that will bring the males on

1:28:45

her side to her defense in principle.

1:28:49

Now, maybe not. Right? Because you could say,

1:28:51

well, maybe we could set up a society where

1:28:53

merely, quote, transgressing

1:28:56

the rights of a woman to say, no is sufficient.

1:28:59

But it's not obvious to me that that's sufficient.

1:29:01

Like, maybe sufficient means not

1:29:04

only do you violate the integrity of

1:29:06

the woman, in a fundamental

1:29:08

sense, but you enrage all of

1:29:10

her male protectors. And

1:29:14

then that's enough of a barrier. Because

1:29:16

God only knows how much barrier

1:29:18

we need. And obviously, well,

1:29:21

you just laid out a bunch of problems. Especially

1:29:23

now that the pill introduces, and we should

1:29:25

stress that. The problem that women have

1:29:27

in saying no, once they're on the pill is that it's

1:29:29

instantly personal. And

1:29:32

that means the woman has to deliver a pretty

1:29:34

hard blow. And that's especially problematic

1:29:37

if she's somewhat potentially interested

1:29:39

in the guy. Right? How do I

1:29:41

say no without hurting his feelings,

1:29:43

alienating him, making him into an enemy,

1:29:45

looking like a prude And I mean,

1:29:47

when you're sixteen, how

1:29:49

you don't know they answered any of those questions, like

1:29:52

you're not sophisticated enough to. And

1:29:54

I saw this in my clinical practice all

1:29:56

the time. You know, I lots of women in

1:29:58

my clinical practice who were abused

1:30:01

serially. And,

1:30:03

you know, they were generally stunningly unsophisticated

1:30:06

in their conduct, and I'm not trying to

1:30:08

blame the victim. I'm just saying that,

1:30:11

sophisticated women, and those

1:30:13

are often those who've been They've

1:30:15

had a lot of good relationships with men

1:30:17

brothers and fathers in particular. Sophisticated

1:30:21

women signal to

1:30:23

men who are getting a little pushy

1:30:25

in no uncertain terms very early

1:30:27

in the pushing game that no

1:30:30

is the answer. Right? And

1:30:32

they do that. If you do that really

1:30:34

early on in the investigation,

1:30:37

you don't have to use much force. But

1:30:39

unsophisticated women, they

1:30:41

can't do that at all. They don't know how. And then

1:30:43

what happens is they they run into an un

1:30:45

sophisticated guy. He's too

1:30:47

dumb to pick up any clues And then

1:30:49

by the time she really wants to say no,

1:30:51

she's already on the bed. I'll give you an example

1:30:54

of this. You know, I had one client who was

1:30:58

coorsed in her

1:31:00

account into a sexual encounter

1:31:02

by door to door salesman. You

1:31:04

know, typical pornography fantasy

1:31:07

setup. So this young guy is

1:31:09

going around door to door selling whatever

1:31:12

he's selling. So he's not one of the world's high status

1:31:14

males. Let's put it that way. And,

1:31:17

you know, And I suppose

1:31:19

he's probably got all sorts of fantasies

1:31:21

running through his pornography pornography

1:31:24

idled brain. And so

1:31:26

he comes to the door and she's in the house and

1:31:28

she's a reasonably attractive young woman

1:31:30

and he's friendly and well

1:31:32

the first thing she does is invite him in.

1:31:34

Now that's stupid. She's

1:31:36

alone. She doesn't know who he

1:31:38

is at all, and she invites a man.

1:31:41

Well, he thinks, oh my god. What

1:31:43

does she have? You know, maybe she really

1:31:45

likes me. And you already said that

1:31:47

men, and this is especially true if their narcissistic

1:31:50

and immature radically overestimate the

1:31:52

degree which a woman's attention is

1:31:54

signaling sexual availability for

1:31:57

obvious reasons. And so he's thinking, oh

1:31:59

my god, this is my big chance And

1:32:01

so then he starts to press her and she has

1:32:04

no tools at her disposal at all

1:32:06

because she has no idea how to signal no

1:32:08

and let's say she's agreeable and neurotic

1:32:11

with a bit of a history of abuse. And

1:32:13

the next thing she knows, she finds herself on

1:32:15

the couch, you know, three quarters undressed,

1:32:18

And then the question is, well, is that

1:32:20

rape? And well, then

1:32:22

that's the question. That's when the police command and

1:32:24

the lawyers command and you spend the next

1:32:26

three years trying to figure out whether or not that's

1:32:29

rape. But it's a so

1:32:31

so my point with all

1:32:33

that is that It's an open

1:32:35

question how much protection women need

1:32:38

from the males around them. And

1:32:40

then it's an open question exactly

1:32:42

how to construe the

1:32:44

crime of irresponsible

1:32:47

access to young women, woman from

1:32:49

a psychological and legal and social perspective.

1:32:51

Like, maybe it's not just Maybe it's not

1:32:53

just a crime against the woman, you

1:32:56

know? Maybe it's a crime against the broader

1:32:58

community. And I don't like, I it's not

1:33:00

like I'm saying, I know how to adjudicate

1:33:02

that because I don't. But it's

1:33:05

hard to get all the necessary barriers

1:33:08

in place. And if that wasn't true, we

1:33:10

wouldn't have this huge debate about consent

1:33:12

on campuses.

1:33:15

I have a slightly unusual

1:33:18

view of the relationship between Christianity and

1:33:20

feminism. In general, families,

1:33:25

one of them has set themselves up in opposition

1:33:27

to Christianity, particularly in each of

1:33:29

abortion, the homemade style kind

1:33:31

of neopuritan outfit being

1:33:33

the the the uniform now of of

1:33:35

of American feminists and so on. I

1:33:38

have of the view though that actually,

1:33:40

feminism is an outgrowth of

1:33:43

Christianity and that the fundamental

1:33:45

idea in Christianity, which is so different

1:33:47

from other religious traditions. That

1:33:50

weakness is strength, that the first shall

1:33:52

be lost, that there is something valuable

1:33:55

about being small and vulnerable rather than

1:33:57

something despicable about

1:33:59

it. I think that feminism completely

1:34:01

relies on that idea, which

1:34:03

is by no means shared by all cultures and certainly

1:34:05

wasn't shared by the ancient Roman culture that

1:34:08

from which Christianity is from. And

1:34:11

so if you're operating in, say, an ancient Roman

1:34:13

culture, which which doesn't see women as inherently

1:34:16

vulnerable, which actually sees female

1:34:19

vulnerability as something

1:34:23

to be despised potentially and which sees

1:34:25

constituted slave women as

1:34:27

entirely available for male sexual consumption

1:34:29

that cannot really conceptualize the idea

1:34:32

of a slave woman having being able

1:34:34

to be sexually violated you know, it's just not kind

1:34:36

of within the moral system. It's not it's not understandable.

1:34:39

Into that comes the Christian idea

1:34:42

of sexual equality at

1:34:44

least at the spiritual level. And

1:34:46

the idea therefore that actually

1:34:48

even a woman who doesn't have male kin available

1:34:51

to defend her against sexual violation, which

1:34:53

of course a slave doesn't. She

1:34:55

is nevertheless worthy of that protection.

1:34:58

It kind of socializes

1:35:00

as maybe the wrong word, but eat eat shares

1:35:02

that duty of protection among

1:35:05

the community. And among women, I think

1:35:07

that's basically what feminism is. And

1:35:10

says that actually we should we should

1:35:12

be bestowing on these friendless women

1:35:15

the same protection that

1:35:17

a woman with high connected male kin has.

1:35:19

It's a very difficult system to enforce. To

1:35:21

some extent, we we try and use police, criminal

1:35:23

justice system, whatever to do that job. It's a hard job

1:35:26

to do. But that is basically the modern

1:35:27

project. And I think it is borne out of Christian Raucy.

1:35:31

Right, right. Well, yeah, yeah, I mean, I think

1:35:33

think that's right is that what what you're

1:35:35

attempting to do is to replicate

1:35:38

the protection that a very well constituted

1:35:41

family and community system would

1:35:43

have for a woman who's highly

1:35:45

functioning, you're trying to replicate that

1:35:47

in abstraction in the entire

1:35:50

social structure. And so that's why

1:35:52

you have legal structure that says, while women

1:35:54

have the right to bodily integrity, you're

1:35:56

really trying to replace that protective

1:35:58

structure with the force of law.

1:36:01

Yeah. And I think that's an entirely laudable

1:36:03

exercise. The question that we have to wrestle

1:36:05

with is the question that you brought up at the end

1:36:07

of that, which is that if a woman is

1:36:09

unfortunate enough not to have,

1:36:12

you know, let's say, close male

1:36:14

associates, brothers, friends,

1:36:17

fathers, available

1:36:20

to her? To what degree is it even

1:36:22

possible for the more

1:36:24

abstract state in the body of law to replace

1:36:27

that? Might be a goal, but it's very

1:36:29

difficult to realize in

1:36:32

practical terms. Is there anything

1:36:34

else that that's

1:36:37

rattling around in the back of your mind that you

1:36:39

think might be worth making a case for

1:36:41

at the

1:36:42

moment. I suppose

1:36:44

that the if

1:36:46

there's one unifying idea

1:36:49

within the book, it's probably summed up in the

1:36:52

in the epilogue, which I called listened to your mother.

1:36:54

I didn't crucially call it obey your mother. I couldn't

1:36:57

listen to your mother. I, you know, give your mother

1:36:59

the opportunity to present her her view of things.

1:37:02

Because I think that basically everything that's in

1:37:04

the book actually is incredibly obvious and

1:37:06

ought to be incredibly obvious. And

1:37:08

it only isn't because

1:37:10

we we live in a very strange time,

1:37:13

which has constructed some very strange ideas

1:37:15

about sexual politics. And actually,

1:37:17

in order to, I think, to navigate these waters

1:37:19

effectively, simply

1:37:21

listening to women who've lived it already and

1:37:24

who have your best interest at heart. If there's

1:37:26

anyone in the world who's likely to have your best interest

1:37:28

heart is probably your mother. Simply

1:37:31

listening to that woman is

1:37:35

really the only piece of advice. That

1:37:38

ought to be needed because

1:37:40

all of this is really just about rediscovering

1:37:44

some of the I would say eternal

1:37:46

truths about men and women,

1:37:48

which we've

1:37:49

Yeah. Well, I'm kinda I'm kinda hoping that

1:37:52

the women that you describe as post

1:37:55

Maiden, so let's say, mothers and matriarchs

1:37:58

could seize the reins

1:38:00

on the social media front and

1:38:03

start educating young women who

1:38:05

are both motherless and fatherless in

1:38:07

the most fundamental sense about some of these

1:38:09

truths. You know, my wife has been Tammy has

1:38:11

been starting to do that with her podcast inquiring

1:38:14

into the nature of the divine feminine,

1:38:16

let's say, and speaking to people

1:38:18

like Janice Fiamango, who's a real

1:38:21

scholar of bitter and resentful

1:38:23

feminism, let's say. But also, Trying

1:38:25

to have an intelligent discussion among

1:38:28

older women who have a bit of wisdom,

1:38:30

often hard won, about what

1:38:33

a viable long term life path

1:38:35

might look like, like you sketched it out a bit,

1:38:37

you know, this transition in

1:38:40

terms of narrative role, let's say,

1:38:42

from made into mother to matriarch,

1:38:44

but that's, you know, that's

1:38:47

a very vague. This is not a criticism,

1:38:49

but a three word description is

1:38:51

very vague and it isn't obvious

1:38:53

at all that our culture is good at providing

1:38:56

an image of Like, what does it

1:38:58

mean to be a mother

1:39:00

in the highest sense? And it's really complicated,

1:39:03

you know, because one of the problems

1:39:05

a lot of my female clients had was they

1:39:07

were very productive economically

1:39:09

and very brilliant, and it's clearly

1:39:11

the case that cultures get much richer

1:39:14

and children are much more well

1:39:16

educated. If women

1:39:18

have access to educational resources and

1:39:21

if society can tap into their

1:39:23

broad economic productivity. That

1:39:26

seems like a net good. Right? But then it

1:39:28

puts women in the uncomfortable situation of,

1:39:30

well, how do you devote enough attention

1:39:32

to your husband and your children, probably

1:39:35

in the reverse order, and how do you

1:39:37

handle your career and

1:39:39

that needs a lot of discussion. The

1:39:42

answer seems to be that most of the women

1:39:44

that I've seen who've had viable lives is

1:39:46

that they don't make career

1:39:49

advancement their number one goal. And

1:39:51

one of the things you see emerging as a consequence

1:39:54

of that is that women are pretty likely to

1:39:56

start small businesses but they

1:39:58

generally do them part time. And

1:40:00

they're generally not as hyper successful

1:40:02

as a minority of men. But the reason

1:40:04

they're doing that is because they're trying to balance

1:40:07

marriage and children with economic

1:40:09

productivity. And that's that's

1:40:13

challenging and presents

1:40:15

lots of opportunity, but it's not straightforward

1:40:18

to conceptualize. And women have only

1:40:20

been able to do that in some real sense

1:40:23

for about sixty years, right, since we had reliable

1:40:25

birth control. So it's not surprising that there

1:40:27

has to be a discussion. And then so that's

1:40:29

on the mother front, and then on the nature, front.

1:40:32

Well, I think the problem's even worse. It's like,

1:40:35

well, what's it like to be grandmother who's

1:40:37

had a life, you know, a family, a

1:40:39

relationship, a career, who's been

1:40:41

productive at that, who's now entering

1:40:45

into you know, final third of

1:40:47

life, let's say, What does

1:40:49

that look like if it's rich and fulfilling

1:40:52

in terms of social role

1:40:54

and and personal relationship

1:40:56

and sexual behavior and Like,

1:40:58

there's an absolute dearth of conversation

1:41:02

on those fronts and, you know,

1:41:04

you're obviously spearheading what

1:41:08

the rectification of that in some real

1:41:10

sense, but it would be lovely to see

1:41:12

a lot more of that. Anyways, people

1:41:15

who are listening Luis Berry's book

1:41:17

is the case against the sexual revolution. Very,

1:41:20

you know, punchy title and

1:41:23

one of the things that we said today that was

1:41:25

interesting is that her book's actually been

1:41:28

met with a lot of positive

1:41:30

responses. You know, and so that's It's