0:14

hello everyone i'm here today with my

0:16

colleague and my friend, mr

0:18

dave, rubin post of the rubin

0:20

a top-ranking online talk

0:23

show known to many of you he's

0:25

a comedian and tv personality

0:27

best known for his political and cultural

0:29

commentary mr rubin began

0:32

his career like so many people

0:34

in the online world as a stand-up comedian

0:36

and continues to perform on stage in

0:38

that guy's throat

0:40

the us in an effort to

0:42

combat, big tech, censorship rubin,

0:44

founded locals.com, the

0:47

subscription-based, digital

0:49

platform that empowers creators to

0:51

be independent, by giving control over

0:53

their content and data something

0:55

we could all use dave's first book,

0:58

don't burn a spot thinking for

1:00

yourself in an age of unreal what

1:02

a new york times bestseller the

1:04

second book not mine this country

1:07

surviving and thriving in our woke dystopia

1:10

published by penguin random house on april

1:13

twelve twenty twenty two steve

1:15

and i got to know each other

1:17

first when he was one of the earliest public

1:19

figures to support my efforts

1:21

on the fight against compelled speech

1:24

in canada and elsewhere and then more

1:26

deeply when he opened for me

1:28

in one hundred and twenty five cities during

1:31

my two thousand and eighteen book tour

1:34

concentrated during that to her talking

1:36

to my audience is on many issues pertaining

1:39

to responsibility and meaning including

1:42

family life and that's

1:44

what we're going to talk about today mr

1:47

rubin currently resides in miami

1:49

the husband david janet the

1:52

rescue dog clyde

1:55

see daves it's good to see of my friend

1:58

that have to say this is feels a little

2:00

bizarre me we've done so many of

2:02

these in so many different cities

2:04

and countries and different chairs

2:06

and on skype and zoom in every which

2:08

way and i'm usually read nearby

2:10

i know i know enormous are no

2:12

i don't interview but i

2:14

mean we we talk together couple

2:16

of weeks ago you have big changes coming

2:18

up in your life said we talked about having

2:20

a serious conversation about that i

2:22

know that please correct me if i'm

2:24

saying anything that isn't accurate the

2:27

lot of would i talked about when

2:29

we were together on the two thousand and eighteen

2:31

two or was the response mail

2:33

or the meaning that's inherent in responsibility

2:36

and a kind of meaning that sustains people

2:38

through ethan catastrophe

2:40

and me

2:44

the propositions i was putting forward i suppose

2:46

was that most of that meaning is to be

2:48

found in responsibility especially

2:51

the other people and

2:53

i talked lot about the role family

2:55

in people's lives and at that point

2:57

you really hadn't been considering children

3:00

not seriously although your partner your

3:02

husband was

3:05

more committed to that than

3:07

you were

3:08

you said you've told me that your

3:10

views changed to some degree at

3:12

least in part as consequence of was

3:14

communicating over the course of that entire year

3:17

so maybe you could sell people in on that front

3:19

and let let them know what's happening just

3:21

sure well sir david navy

3:23

met thirteen years ago yesterday

3:25

and i know was yesterday because we met

3:27

on my birthday believe or not he was on

3:29

my birthday and then got an even weirder one for

3:32

a was at the gay pride parade

3:34

in new york city which now these

3:36

they've become sort of these sort crazy

3:38

circuses but back then it wasn't quite

3:40

like that but like actually literally remember when

3:42

walks into the room the was wearing an american

3:45

flag tank tops which i'm pretty sure you can't

3:47

wear to have can't pride parade anymore or

3:49

but anymore van we've been together for about

3:51

twelve years we've been married for seven years and

3:54

i'm i'm forty six now so now grew up

3:56

in time when

3:58

never even a person struggled

4:00

with my sexuality for long time partly

4:02

we've discussed this i sell you

4:05

know people like homer

4:07

simpson quote that i love and know you can do simpsons

4:09

thing all time i , my beer

4:11

cold in my homosexuals flaming and

4:13

i sorted thought that was what it meant that

4:15

gay gay though i was attracted

4:17

to men that game and something else game at

4:19

like you like the theater or you like to dance or

4:21

you like madonna something and i didn't really

4:23

care for any of those things so i really had

4:25

some some distance between

4:28

my feelings and and my attractions

4:31

and sort of the way the world could map

4:33

to that so to so and

4:35

as a as a giant as here there

4:38

was nothing we never talked about gay marriage you

4:40

didn't even talk very thin gave there was nothing

4:42

you growing up in the nineties there were there was no role

4:44

model was look at you

4:46

the only person that ever saw on television

4:48

that made any sense to me was in two episodes

4:51

of the golden girls blanche his brother comes

4:53

out as gay and he marries a cop

4:55

this is ninety ninety one and b c

4:57

prime time obviously gay marriage wasn't

5:00

legal for another thirty years or something but

5:02

i'd so i had no role models i had no nothing

5:04

so i sort of just never thought about getting married

5:07

having family truthfully and i didn't

5:09

realize this to we were on tour i

5:11

never thought of the future i

5:13

sort of thought of my present all the time

5:15

and then when we were on

5:17

tour flash forward

5:19

a bit david in i got married and even when we got

5:21

married we never really talked about

5:24

having kids or even

5:26

what family man we knew we we

5:28

love each other and we have a great time together

5:30

and you know we love the same things

5:33

and i think in most ways we bring out the best and

5:35

each other sometimes , bring

5:37

out the worst in each other eyebrow damage that's probably

5:39

good you're married six equities

5:42

but then right around and

5:44

we were on tours analysis two thousand and eighteen

5:47

david started talking about having kids and

5:50

we were texting lot about it while we

5:52

were on tour and then i'm with you on and

5:54

on stage every night as

5:56

you said no one hundred twenty five cities for about

5:58

year and half and your car that

6:00

we talking about the importance of family

6:02

any importance that for most

6:04

people in this is where you would always say it it's hard to quote

6:06

jordan peterson exactly but something

6:09

to the effect of that for most

6:11

people to live fully actualize

6:13

life that being a

6:15

parent is parent integral

6:17

part of that it is on the there's almost no

6:19

exceptions that you'd always make point there are some exceptions

6:22

you might have to be exceptional

6:24

to to have an exception to that so

6:26

yeah told me that me third job

6:28

and career and that sort of service to the

6:30

broader community and it's a third your intimate

6:32

relationship and then the third

6:35

children and families and

6:37

those proportions can vary but if

6:39

you miss one of those there's a big gap

6:42

to fill and maybe you can fill it you know if

6:44

you if another one of your

6:46

endeavors has the expansive

6:48

the quality necessary to occupy

6:50

two thirds of your time more

6:53

power to i suppose but it's

6:55

big with so you also

6:57

told me dave when we're talking about this before

7:00

at you you started to think

7:02

about be an older as well the

7:04

i suppose the net

7:06

with your concentrate on the present and the lack

7:08

of role models that there was no real vision

7:10

for what it might be like to

7:13

the grow old in the gay community i suppose

7:16

yeah and you know it's funny i became community

7:18

i hate their that phrase i know he

7:20

wouldn't even as he said it it's like be

7:22

doesn't mean anything to me i don't think of you as

7:24

part of the street community my oh it's just want

7:26

to be things we say these things we don't even know exactly

7:28

why we're seeing them but i didn't have that

7:30

role model i didn't have that there was no map

7:33

there really were other heard of the marginal i

7:35

guess , by could part of i owed

7:37

them in some bizarre sense sense

7:40

even that would be sort of nauseating i guess

7:43

but , were on tour together and

7:45

david texting me and were going

7:47

back or talking on the phone and were face time and

7:49

it just keeps coming up and you keep talking about

7:51

this on stage and on top of everything

7:54

us a meeting all the people that are attending

7:56

the shows and you notice the amount

7:58

of people that were in new

8:00

families or that to the wife

8:02

was pregnant for the first time and

8:04

i'm seeing the joy on these people's faces

8:06

all of this is hitting me and then you keep

8:08

saying this thing that for most people

8:10

they have to do it but there are these exceptions

8:12

i kept thinking whoa wait a minute could

8:14

i be the exception than i could live a

8:16

full we actualize best

8:18

possible life without having

8:20

kids and at same time be married to someone

8:22

who wants kids that then what am i married

8:24

for well that was right right well that does

8:26

big that question niners are now these

8:28

are these things are really hitting each other

8:31

and because i admit because

8:33

the map wasn't there that there road map just

8:35

wasn't there i started going man going

8:37

really has

8:38

think about know now and i remember

8:41

one night we were and you're onstage

8:43

and you i the best seat the house every night because

8:45

i'm just off stage left so i'm basically

8:47

watching stays right is actually better to

8:49

stay right as as the i suppose it

8:52

depends which country where it but

8:54

i'm your i'm basically watching you from

8:56

behind so i have sort of back

8:58

view beauty the crowd so i'm genuinely

9:00

felt that every night that was part the show every

9:02

night that sense part of the audience and

9:04

remember you said it one more time and thought

9:07

or right or right do this i

9:09

have to do this and that's why it was always

9:11

incredibly honest when would say

9:13

to the crowd that that being on tour with

9:15

you for every reason that they

9:17

were there that you help these people change their

9:19

lives that you did that to me too but

9:21

now and i think the purpose of this conversation

9:25

which by the way if you were said me ten years

9:27

ago that i'd having this conversation publicly

9:29

first often have that i'd be married i

9:31

wouldn't believe you that i'd have be having kids i wouldn't

9:34

believed use that i would be willing to talk about

9:36

this or even rome when that even someone

9:38

that someone else might look to to

9:40

help map it for them i'd say you were completely

9:42

insane this is not

9:45

really something you know i'd rather talk about

9:47

politics i'd rather talk about rather

9:49

kill their work and while his other thing his

9:51

a political editor do political guess we're trying

9:53

to sketch out

9:54

the pathway i suppose mean our

9:57

culture appears to have decided that

9:59

gay marriage is

10:03

well i don't know if acceptable is the right word

10:06

the become part of the structure

10:08

of marriage itself so now the

10:10

question as okay what

10:13

does that mean and that certainly opens

10:15

up the question on know

10:18

than front because mean

10:22

in in some ways marriage is the

10:24

union of to people but possibly

10:27

more fundamental way it's the

10:29

union of two people to provide the

10:31

foundation for children right i

10:33

would say that's actually paramount i

10:36

mean our society tends to flip at around

10:38

and we tend to think of marriage is something that are

10:40

you find a partner right for you and you live happily

10:43

ever after it's well no not

10:45

exactly and but or

10:47

maybe or maybe if you

10:49

also understand that living happily

10:52

ever after means

10:54

leaving for other people in many ways

10:57

particularly your children and

10:59

so and then of course that

11:01

complicates the issue on the gay marriage

11:04

front because as we're going to talk

11:06

about it's also more

11:08

technically difficult to have children if

11:10

you're a homosexual couples

11:12

right so if you take just that the marriage

11:15

part first meeting that two people are gonna

11:17

choose to share their life and lived together

11:19

in our share bed etc etc

11:22

i would say culturally in america we kind

11:24

of move past that mean trump ramses

11:26

the first first time president he was onstage

11:28

with a rainbow flag it was you know and

11:30

and nobody cared are nice should

11:32

nobody cared but boots or not people

11:34

felt ok you let people live the

11:36

way they want to to put this

11:38

down and and move ahead but

11:41

you're right that marriage has

11:43

to do something else otherwise otherwise them

11:45

the word marriage wouldn't mean

11:47

anything it's like nobody really cares if you

11:50

live with your friend for the rest the your life for you

11:52

live with a man or woman you know people

11:54

people do this all the time and life and doesn't really

11:56

matter so what really is the purpose

11:58

of really the with somebody

12:00

and really been with somebody and sharing your life

12:03

with somebody is to build something lasting

12:05

something that i think something

12:07

that you've learned and know when we're

12:09

taught and that you can you can

12:11

onto the next generation and hopefully they can

12:13

attain written and some of that permanence

12:15

in your life to yeah multi generational

12:18

permanent stretching indefinitely

12:20

into the future be part of what

12:22

marriage does i think

12:24

technically it's the

12:26

psychological equivalent of what sex

12:28

does genetically know the

12:31

bull mix comedians it

12:33

meets vomit scummy age

12:36

at the damage to partly

12:38

because to because to

12:41

variability and to stop propagation

12:44

of parasites that's why we don't clone but

12:46

there's that mixing as well

12:49

then do in here

12:51

that deviations

12:53

from genetic health are

12:55

minimized and so the

12:57

same thing happens on the psychological affront

12:59

psychological would say is that each person

13:01

has their own idiosyncrasies

13:04

and some of those lead them down garden

13:06

path to terrible places but if

13:08

you're with someone else the have to

13:10

negotiate with them constantly then

13:13

that opens up the possibility of you mutually

13:15

my i find each other's personalities so

13:17

that you both become healthier and that your joint

13:20

existence the

13:21

kind of can be a paragon of sorts

13:23

and then that's what the child

13:25

interacts with is that united front

13:27

of the two parents bright and so you get

13:29

that longevity of view which i think helps

13:32

to mature you but you also get

13:34

the opportunity to become

13:36

more fully fledged as a psychological

13:39

being then i think that's further

13:41

is well i've often thought and said this

13:43

and i do believe it's true it's very very difficult

13:45

to mature until you have

13:47

children and there

13:49

are other ways of measuring but it's hard

13:51

and the reason it's hard i think is because

13:54

you're not mature until

13:57

someone else there's more important

13:59

than you and the

14:01

portable that that would happen with your

14:03

wife your husband

14:05

not like with children what i've been thinking

14:07

about it i so you know where about have

14:09

first out that month and i've been thinking about that a

14:11

lot lately like it's just something that constantly

14:13

stirring my head that i feel like

14:15

i've sort of gotten to the end

14:18

of where i can get mature

14:20

in my maturation process

14:23

i can't change or get better at this or that

14:25

something but i do feel like i'm at the end

14:27

of one phase right now i really i very

14:30

much feel that and i think i'm feeling

14:32

it more and more each day as

14:34

we get closer to august twenty

14:37

second which is due dates but you

14:39

know the first part you know you can you can take

14:41

whether it's a straight relationship or or gay

14:43

relationships the dance that couple

14:45

can do and way that they can mature

14:48

each other and love each other and all of those

14:50

things that that's one thing but the the

14:52

peace with the kids with

14:54

building the sustainable things it's

14:56

not something that has been rubin

14:58

in society at really you know they're obviously

15:01

are gay couples with kids damn

15:03

than the does been happening for decades but

15:06

it really is sort of unseen

15:08

at the moments which is why we wanted to have

15:10

this conversation that like boy i don't even know

15:12

that in some ways i don't know that

15:14

i'm the person that's was have this conversation

15:17

but maybe that's exactly why overload

15:19

has his story goes know are trying figure

15:21

out of mean

15:24

maybe we can talk out exactly

15:27

how it came to be that you'll have

15:29

baby in your household in

15:31

six weeks talk about what you had

15:33

to do make that happen

15:36

and

15:37

why you made why you made the decisions

15:39

that you made what

15:42

advantages and hazards come along

15:44

with that sure so first

15:47

i quickly because there are biological

15:49

differences between men and women i don't want

15:51

to get us canceled on you do but it actually

15:53

is true jordan are you know

15:55

we could not biologically have kids

15:57

so you know just ourselves so

15:59

we that we talked about an adoption

16:02

for a little bit we did we both

16:04

felt that would that the genetic component of this

16:06

was important deaths suffer

16:08

little while we debated

16:11

going with my sister's eg we

16:13

thought we'd have two kids that was the that was

16:16

i thought process beginning and we thought we could

16:18

a take some my sisters eggs

16:20

and she's mother now she's actually pregnant with her third

16:23

a but that we could get her eggs and

16:25

then we would take david sperm and then we have

16:27

two children from that a after

16:29

a long time of talking about year

16:31

debating that back forth in going through all that

16:33

there were lot of ethical and moral issues

16:35

and my my sister then

16:37

would sort of would be the biological mother

16:39

of my children mean they were all sorts of things

16:41

we were about to traverse right and that's all that

16:44

charted territory right to all sorts of yeah

16:46

thank you know how that might go and you

16:48

think you know how it might do if you have goodwill

16:50

but that does not mean that you know how it

16:52

will go and i have to see even that

16:54

conversation having that conversation with

16:56

my sister who was interested in you

16:58

know when i when we came to her she was sorta

17:00

flattered and honored that we were even considering

17:02

it but then you know we said

17:04

why don't you say with this for a little bit then suddenly she

17:07

had lot of those questions and she was concerned

17:09

if you know she shows to the birthday party

17:11

and then feals this odd jealousy or what if

17:13

she suddenly wasn't happy with the way that we were

17:15

parents are that's a big one or

17:17

a litany of other things so even going through that

17:19

and they said this obviously is not the way that we ultimately

17:22

went about it even that was sort of a a

17:24

maturation process and like you know what

17:26

we really trying to do here so anyway

17:28

ultimately we decided to find a an

17:30

egg donor i mean basically it it

17:32

sounds sort of a glimmer thing

17:34

but it's it's sorta like tinder mean you can they

17:36

are these websites that exist where the the

17:38

egg donors are on the site and you try we tried

17:40

to find a girl didn't really care that

17:43

much about the pedigree in terms of did

17:45

they go to an ivy league school or anything like that

17:47

we wanted to find girl who obviously was physically

17:49

healthy most importantly i'm

17:52

that you know do that didn't have [unk] major

17:54

issues terms of genetics and all that

17:56

sort of stuff that we thought that sort of

17:58

looked like the type the girl that we might

18:01

be with so i didn't want you know six foot

18:03

five swedish mom and my nights

18:06

and so we have one egg donor

18:08

meeting there were multiple eggs and we

18:10

fertilized one with david's from

18:12

and one with my from and will have two kids

18:14

right now we to surrogates that are pregnant

18:17

when even talking about this about this man i get

18:19

this is this is all kind crazy stuff

18:21

putting aside putting aside day

18:23

or straight related all of this the whole surrogacy

18:25

thing is is it's fascinating

18:27

that there are first of women who are willing

18:30

to to donate their eggs and you know i i

18:32

hear a lot people we we talked about this there's

18:34

this criticism of some house that

18:36

you're you're buying the egg and you're renting

18:39

the woman yeah the arrogance yeah and

18:42

of course there is a financial component to it there

18:44

is i'm not denying that are yeah i

18:46

can tell you haven't gone through this process and

18:48

and we had a previous surrogate

18:50

who had two miscarriages they were also

18:52

you know we were doing lot this during coded and

18:55

during coby they were all sorts the miscarriage

18:57

numbers were through the roof that we're all sorts

18:59

weird things a quality the eggs wasn't

19:02

great they don't know exactly the have to study this

19:04

for years in terms of what actually happened but

19:07

can tell you that the women who offer to

19:09

be the surrogates and who are offering

19:12

their ah eggs they

19:15

are not doing this for the money there's all

19:17

sorts of other ways that you can make money

19:19

that anyone can make money they are doing

19:21

it they are they talk about it they have disability

19:23

and this gift to that they can do a

19:26

, of them there are some that won't do for same sex

19:28

couples on because their own

19:30

ethical religious views the

19:33

surrogates that we found they actually

19:35

one of them had them brother mean they were all

19:37

sorts things that they feel that they can

19:39

help other people have family and what a

19:41

better gifts there is but but

19:43

all of that aside all the science in genetics

19:45

and all that it leads us to this thing

19:47

which think is the heart of what were what we're trying to

19:49

talk about your which is so we're going be

19:51

a family were two fathers and

19:54

mothers adnan what does that

19:56

really look like you it's very easy to

19:59

just say okay games

20:00

people should have kids are gay because you get

20:02

married gay people a to say lot of

20:04

things easy to say lot relied on as you said

20:06

it's not that easy for gay couple to have kid

20:08

right sorry competition putting aside the

20:10

if you're going to go to surrogacy reporting side or the

20:12

finances and all of that stuff that that

20:14

eliminates an awful lot people from even being

20:16

able to do it fortunately we're we're

20:19

able to do it again or but now

20:21

it gets us to the the

20:22

real partier which is that now

20:24

we're gonna have live in a household with two

20:26

fathers is going to be no mother

20:29

involved and and what is that really

20:31

made one and i understand the no reservation

20:33

lava flows so we do more we

20:36

do know that you're

20:38

going to be fit do better

20:41

i believe that one year of presence eating

20:43

is equivalent to think breastfed

20:46

kids have five point i q advantage

20:48

and one point i do is worth one year

20:50

of education i have a to freezers

20:53

in my garage to industrial freezers

20:55

full of breastmilk right that i'm so done

20:57

all the research on this right so another

20:59

complication but okay and sauce

21:01

and we don't have data we don't really have

21:03

data on motherless

21:05

children

21:07

raise my father's from infancy

21:09

right because it's pretty rare from i don't know

21:11

if there's literature pertaining to that

21:13

off we do have a literature on

21:18

mother headed families without fathers

21:20

and the data there crystal clear

21:23

not good to be fatherless that

21:26

doesn't mean that there are some women who are

21:28

struggling mightily single mothers who don't

21:30

do outstanding jobs but what is

21:32

absolutely and one hundred percent

21:34

mean said on average

21:36

that sub optimal and badly

21:39

suboptimal and so

21:42

it seems to me that some minimal

21:44

stable requirements for

21:48

ensuring the psychological

21:50

health and financial viability

21:52

of child is something like the nuclear

21:55

families structure of the minimum

21:57

right so you need mother and father or

21:59

at least

22:00

in too deep open one who plays

22:02

a maternal role and one who plays a paternal

22:04

role or that and split those who

22:06

seems to be better than one know

22:08

how much of that linked to sex we

22:11

also don't know you know it know

22:13

it it that the

22:16

salmon and role there's more

22:19

except in slash nurturing

22:21

you see that with

22:23

the proclivity of women to be more agreeable

22:25

temperamentally that kicks in at puberty

22:28

and so i think that you have to be

22:30

accepting no

22:33

nurturing specially

22:35

in your attitude towards the

22:38

infant's before their mobile

22:40

so say before six months before

22:42

nine months an infant does know

22:44

wrong one hundred percent

22:47

acceptance the problem

22:49

with that is that

22:52

that's not true as child develops because

22:54

it has to switch to more an encouraging

22:56

rule sight out of your dependency

22:58

into the world and the paternal spirits

23:02

encourages that develop and know mother's can do

23:04

that two months that's roughly

23:06

speaking women tend to do the nurturing

23:08

thing more men do the encouraging thing

23:10

more so now the question is

23:13

how do you mediate how do you manage

23:15

to fulfill both those roles

23:18

in the absence of

23:20

have a heterosexual arrangement right

23:22

so now naturally we understand that there are

23:24

men who are more nurturing and women

23:26

who aren't as nurturing any of the things that

23:28

you you know david pretty well and we've been out to

23:30

dinner with abby many to yes and you know him

23:32

he's incredibly warm and nurturing

23:35

and loving and deeply cares

23:37

about all those things and i'm telling you he is reading about

23:39

skin to skin kind every day yes

23:41

and all of the breast milk stuff and everything

23:43

and know he will have a huge

23:46

percentage of the stuff

23:48

that a mother would bring but i

23:50

also know it's not all day long nose

23:53

of your own to is that you guys

23:55

have to do that consciously yes

23:57

right with three with research

23:59

in here

24:00

and to build up that

24:02

proclivity that would be there

24:04

more automatically arguably with a mother

24:06

and all that the psychological and

24:08

hormonal transformation she undergoes

24:11

and that transition into no

24:13

production all that which is a

24:15

fundamental transformation woman's

24:17

biology andor salty full

24:20

you and day that have pool

24:23

resources at hand financially

24:25

and intellectually that enable you

24:27

to traverse is nothing well

24:29

if anyone is likely to do it that it

24:32

is very interesting

24:34

and salutary do here you also talk

24:36

about the computation sauce so

24:38

on the feminine side let's say do

24:41

you think you have the nerve to it's

24:44

the angle well covered you

24:46

taught me little bit about having women

24:48

around in in your infant

24:50

and child's life as well yes sir david's

24:52

mom is going to be living with us for

24:54

few months at start as well as his sister

24:57

who's taken care of young babies already

24:59

are but now i understand that they're they're not the biological

25:02

mother but they will be there you know we're going have night

25:04

nurses aisles of for a few months to

25:06

help the baby's going on on a normal sleep schedule

25:09

but these are the pieces that we're we're trying put

25:11

together buckwheat as backup for one second because i think

25:13

before we go too deep into it's just fragile

25:15

part this there was another thing that came

25:17

up when we sort roughly sketched out this conversation

25:19

over dinner that think's important which is that if

25:22

if you weren't to allow gay people either

25:24

get married and enter relationships

25:26

that will last the test of time

25:29

or have children to really last

25:31

generations been what are we reducing

25:33

these people to and , think

25:35

that's a huge part of this for me me

25:38

i think had the world that

25:40

shifted to be a little bit kinder had

25:43

i not may be been on tour with you and come

25:45

to the some of these realizations or found

25:47

someone's in world that i wanted to

25:49

put their needs above my own that

25:52

i could have been left to a life that would have

25:54

been sort of purely narcissistic

25:56

or self destructive or anything and destructive used live i

25:58

used see how that can some i don't see

26:00

how that can be there can be any

26:02

alternative to that if there isn't another

26:05

pathway forward yes so on and

26:07

so that's the to me that's like

26:09

the unknown road that i'm going down right now

26:11

that that i was choosing to go down that

26:13

unknown road of are we can be better than that's

26:16

right i don't i as said i don't

26:18

have i have to we have two or three couples

26:20

that are the a parents

26:22

that are doing some version of this

26:25

but we don't have that model but then when you

26:27

know we lived in west hollywood west hollywood is the

26:29

gayest place on earth a rainbow crosswalks

26:31

in the whole thing and to me i would see

26:33

these guys that were you know sixty five

26:35

seventy years old that all

26:37

they had basically was

26:40

that they worked out they spray tanned and

26:42

got hair plugs they had their little dogs

26:44

and partied on the weekends and probably chase

26:46

the same sexual

26:48

escapades that they were chasing forty

26:50

years ago during anyone not like

26:52

adolescence as yeah and it's not it's

26:55

not a full life and life actually it's

26:57

like a few like have like almost like

26:59

visceral feeling when talk about x i noted

27:01

that could have been me so when i see these people

27:04

then either at this point are against gay marriage

27:07

but out but in general there are there don't seem

27:09

to be that many voices that publicly

27:11

about that anymore so here's a real

27:13

question so do you think

27:15

those the flamboyance l

27:17

a i want to get into this in some detail buddy

27:19

flamboyance that's been historically

27:21

associated with the mail headers homosexual

27:24

community community sorry about that and

27:28

the and a promiscuity

27:31

you think to what degree do you think

27:33

that both of those are the consequences

27:36

of not having a more integrated

27:38

and conservative path potentially

27:40

opened in front of people

27:43

think it's a huge amount the probably

27:45

will never be fully explained if people

27:48

don't have been bill it looks

27:50

what was the the gay rights movement

27:52

for are in the seventies new york

27:54

city and stonewalling all of the things he

27:56

was the these people just wanted what they wanted

27:59

be able to get back sorry that was part of it

28:01

but it was also that they wanted be able to go to a bar

28:03

that was an underground that wasn't it in

28:05

that was in you know this cd thing

28:07

but that's what they had do because isn't getting raided

28:09

by the police in this was going on obscene other

28:11

countries and was going on for decades before that

28:14

but they wanted some sense of normalcy if

28:16

you don't leave people some little

28:18

seeds of normalcy then they will

28:20

do all sorts of things so the flamboyant

28:23

part there's two parts your account so the flamboyant

28:25

parts i'm just not built that way

28:27

i am not sometimes i used as you know i used

28:29

to when was first sort of coming out coming

28:31

to grips with myself i actually liked guys

28:33

that were kind of flamboyance

28:35

because i in my a to me was like

28:38

oh they're so who they are no me

28:41

like they had just let go of every sort of

28:43

normal cliche or something like that they're so

28:45

raise a i saw that kind of existential

28:47

courage yet and yet yet they

28:49

always really liked generally days

28:51

they like street acting that's a that's a

28:53

real thing with with days they like straight

28:56

acting so guys always liked

28:58

me because i i didn't seem gay whatever

29:00

that meant and i thought it sort

29:02

meant that i was broken in weird way because it

29:04

made me feel like a sort of like double freak

29:06

and and odds and right right because was struggling

29:09

for the straight to mutagen straight for the queer

29:11

community well , man

29:14

and , i was sort of grappling

29:16

with that so there was this do there's

29:18

the flamboyant right and then and then you're asking about the

29:20

the sec side it's like if you don't leave

29:23

people with some ability to say oh you can be

29:25

and or lasting really should this is why marriage equality

29:27

it's was so important now

29:28

the sidebar but i would never force a charger

29:30

a mosque or a synagogue to performer

29:33

a wedding that it was against it's believed but

29:35

from secular perspective

29:38

whatever some respect we remain

29:40

secular this country if you don't

29:42

leak give people the same opportunity

29:45

the be in relationship and then learn all

29:47

things that you talked about before how you go through that

29:49

churning with your partner and hopefully make each other

29:51

better and sometimes made each other words and all that

29:53

stuff what will you leave them with you

29:55

will leave them with their carnal desires and

29:58

desires definitely you're going down that road

30:00

with her with a and didn't via

30:02

down that road with a defiant

30:05

rip rebelliousness right

30:07

because

30:09

who knows what happens if you're not allowed

30:11

so to speak to be who you are then

30:14

it strikes me as highly probable

30:16

that an excessive

30:18

amount of rebelliousness

30:20

is going to start look attractive right and maybe

30:22

to be indistinguishable from courage i

30:25

would say it's gotta be the case

30:27

that the whole so to speak

30:29

of the more enlightened

30:31

conservative types who

30:33

were willing to open door to gay marriage was

30:35

that i bringing those relationships

30:37

inside the traditional fold that

30:40

things would normalize yeah that

30:42

there would be a promotion of something like stable

30:45

mature responsible long term monogamy

30:47

but i think maybe i'm trying to prove that he

30:49

i'm not i'm not trying to prove like i'm setting

30:51

out to prove it but i suppose de

30:54

facto because of my life i'm trying

30:56

to prove mean in a weird way although

30:58

i'm probably the unlikeliest of conservatives

31:01

in that sense it's like what life

31:03

i'm trying live i'm trying to liberalize that

31:05

is somewhat conservative in nature

31:07

is in that sense meaning then meaning believe

31:10

that family is important and probably

31:12

the most important thing after the individuals

31:14

that's it that's how societies both i fundamentally

31:17

believe that's so it's weird

31:19

it's like my like my

31:22

because otherwise what he's saying to people so okay okay

31:24

you're gay so you can either it's just

31:27

endless we have sex or endless we disregard

31:29

every norm known to man

31:32

and just have nothing other

31:34

than wake up and just live the life are you

31:36

want what other way is there to

31:38

integrate into society the

31:40

really integrate into society i mean

31:42

to me this this is it blind

31:44

think that's why did the culture did take

31:46

the decision that a turk which was to open

31:48

the doors let's say now we talked about

31:50

that want get into that too because the

31:56

we have this notion that rise in

31:58

our culture let's say that's insane the

32:00

point that all families are equally

32:02

are equal and i

32:05

understand

32:07

the emphasis on that from that let's

32:09

call it the tolerance perspective

32:12

but i think that it's badly flawed

32:14

in one manner and i think this will be the hardest

32:16

thing probably for us to discuss his

32:19

that you

32:21

can fly no distinctions without

32:24

a tremendous loss and i don't think

32:27

it's possible to dispense with the

32:29

ideal the heterosexual

32:31

monogamy now the

32:34

ideal yeah that's so if we think well there's

32:36

an ideal individual who's responsible

32:38

and mature and farseeing and honest

32:40

the honest trader good player an

32:43

honorable person honorable decent person

32:46

and then there's the minimum requirement

32:48

for a family that's ideal and that's

32:50

something approximating heterosexual

32:53

long term heterosexual monogamy and

32:55

maybe you have to be some people

32:57

united together and then there's for a platform

32:59

for children now the problem without

33:01

as an ideal is that we

33:03

all fall short of the idea of and

33:06

so right past forty

33:08

percent people going get divorced

33:10

and of the people who don't get divorced

33:13

good percentage of them are pretty damn

33:15

miserable marriages know that doesn't

33:17

condemn marriage but it does show

33:19

how difficult attending that idealists

33:21

and then there's going to be people who lose their partners

33:23

and raise children alone and they're going to be

33:25

people who raised children alone by

33:27

happenstance or or

33:29

choice and they it

33:32

doesn't seem reasonable to

33:35

what would you say the what

33:39

them outside the bounds of civilized

33:41

society that say that why

33:43

the same token it doesn't seem reasonable to dispense

33:46

with the ideal yeah so maybe we need something

33:48

like well we know what the ideal is it's

33:50

a divine ideal in some sense in

33:52

that none of us can live up to it but

33:55

then there has to be a space around that ideal

33:58

were the

34:01

individual differences and flaws

34:03

and peculiarities and idiosyncrasies

34:05

of people treated

34:08

so harshly this that becomes counter

34:10

productive in and of itself

34:12

damn with faint praise but i don't see

34:14

snow that's it that's it

34:16

that's it it's that's the meat of

34:18

this more than anything else that they're it

34:20

of course there's an ideal of course there

34:22

isn't ideal there has to be an

34:24

ideal and and if wouldn't know monday

34:26

nights there's not really looks as if it if there

34:28

if there isn't if the ideal isn't to people

34:31

male and female and heterosexual relationship

34:33

then what is it is it for people the

34:36

eight people is one person

34:38

like instantly go from that

34:40

kind of narrow ideal to an intense multiplicity

34:43

and certainly seen the problems that are associated

34:45

with that

34:46

so you can't just blow out the confines

34:49

of the ideal without destabilizing while

34:51

it may be destabilized society at the level

34:53

of the family and that seems to me to be really

34:55

bad idea well it's really bad idea

34:57

and think seeing some of repercussions

34:59

of that right now right i mean we've seen

35:01

the exit the excesses of what the woke

35:04

or them progressives or whatever that is

35:06

that now destabilizing everything this

35:08

is why i've said this i've gotten into trouble for saying it few

35:10

times but i'm sympathetic to

35:12

to conservatives who go point

35:15

in we we let gay marriage happen

35:17

and look what's happened yet now now

35:19

we're into all this gender stuff and

35:21

they're literally teaching gender theory to

35:23

five year olds who know nothing about gender

35:25

our sex or anything else but but the

35:27

issue really is okay so if we have the ideal

35:30

really what trying matters what do we do with these

35:32

marginal cases the marginal cases meaning

35:34

okay to allow the modern quests right

35:36

so but so what we really do with that so now

35:38

okay so they are going to be gay couples

35:41

want to approximate

35:43

to that ideal so what does

35:45

what society dude as dude as

35:47

try to help them get their

35:49

orders a society just never talk about

35:51

it pushed them to the margins or

35:54

and push it underground right so

35:57

what we're trying to do right here

35:59

is on earth that little bit so i don't

36:01

deny the importance of mother by

36:04

no stretch as i said we're going to try to have as

36:06

many strong female role models as

36:08

possible but don't think it will replicate

36:11

a mother by the way when you talk you know

36:13

that pretty good at bonding with adults

36:15

who aren't their biological relatives

36:17

what children don't like is instability

36:20

in their primary caregiver they

36:22

really hate having rendering caregivers

36:24

swap because their primary caregivers

36:26

their whole world so basically

36:28

if you substitute one for

36:31

another they six

36:33

months into the child's life then

36:35

it's as if everything the child knows has

36:37

been flipped upside down so they don't like that

36:39

they're perfectly capable of bonding with multiple

36:42

people though and there doesn't seem to be any

36:44

developmental downside to that exact perhaps

36:46

quite the contrary you know i don't think

36:48

it's so bad for a child to have variety of

36:50

role models to choose from and i saw

36:52

this don't think it's implausible for

36:54

you to replicate both the

36:56

masculine and feminine influences

36:59

in your children's life i would say

37:01

it's difficult might be more difficult

37:04

even if you're homosexual couples what

37:06

is difficult if you're is difficult i

37:08

decided i'm sure plenty of heterosexual

37:10

couples so were both

37:13

partners are essentially feminine and their temperamental

37:15

mutt partners are essentially mascot no

37:18

we don't know enough about that to differentiated

37:21

in wrote down to that ultimate

37:23

degree the

37:24

problem that you guys will face isn't

37:26

other categorically different type

37:29

necessarily than the problem that many couples

37:31

face absolutely and there are also when you talk

37:33

about the be ideal and then the way

37:35

that everyone fits into that ideal tries

37:37

to get to that ideal there are parents

37:39

who obviously abuse their kids or abuse each

37:41

other and alcohol and all the things i'm no way

37:43

comparing spin gay parents that

37:45

but point is that there is there is an ideal

37:48

situation and then there's what society didn't

37:50

allow the and then is reality so it's like okay

37:52

so should society stop people who are alcoholics

37:54

from having kids or stop people

37:56

who more license parents and

37:59

to intensive training

38:00

right well that's that's the road that this

38:02

really would go down there we already kind decided

38:04

that too because one of the things the state

38:06

doesn't do

38:08

the determine who's a fit parent right

38:10

and we bros i levels well it's very

38:13

strange some sense because it's the most

38:15

important thing you'll ever do and yet

38:17

you know compelled to have

38:19

an education for example around parenting

38:21

issues before you become apparent and we've

38:24

decided everywhere in the world i

38:26

would say maybe without

38:28

exception that that's one

38:30

place the government doesn't go and

38:32

that's very interesting decision for everyone who

38:35

have made it's quite surprising it's in some

38:37

fundamental sense i guess we know

38:39

that in that

38:41

situation in particular variety

38:44

of approaches might be the best

38:47

though or something like that will

38:49

so i guess i guess my question

38:52

for you as i traversed this is so

38:54

if we acknowledge that

38:56

that ideal situation and again eaten

38:58

just using the word ideal i know that there's a certain

39:00

set of people that will watch that go and see ruben saying

39:03

his relationship he is less than schedule

39:05

no it isn't and right now that that additional

39:07

pointed dispense yes the bloody ideal just

39:09

because it's difficult to obtain right

39:11

and and just because

39:14

because we all hope we all are we all

39:16

are flawed in our own way i mean really who

39:18

think you said this me dinner but it's like who amongst

39:20

us is walking around as the ideal

39:23

partner the ideal person the ideal

39:25

be ideal everything the ideal father ideal

39:27

anything yeah matter yeah virtually

39:29

nobody's doing that well as they are than

39:32

ideal isn't high enough because an ideal

39:34

should be something the deck and steal from distance

39:36

right it's not something that's right there in front you

39:38

for you to grip that's right much of an ideal

39:40

wealth and have a lot more people who were acting that

39:42

way if was that easy as if i suppose right

39:44

like there's not a lot people do and it's so

39:46

i i think what what i'm trying

39:48

to figure out here is how

39:51

does that how does this life

39:53

i think the into

39:57

whatever coming in this new world you know we

39:59

seem to

40:00

you're entering a new world right now we're watching

40:02

an old world go away and were entering this new world

40:05

i'm sort of part of this new

40:07

conservative world and kind of were

40:10

where does it all fit i was

40:12

at those are your the crayons question that's

40:14

relevant that so stood politically

40:16

incorrect questions and so in some sense

40:18

the the more traditional community

40:20

has opened itself up to the

40:23

possibility of including gay marriage in

40:25

the purview of the

40:28

acceptable in traditional the case

40:30

or what responsibilities hum

40:33

along for people who are got

40:35

on cyclical in relationship

40:37

to the expansion of that runs what

40:40

you think about that mean know what you've

40:42

done young know well i think it's a to respect

40:44

for that it's an acknowledgement that something

40:46

is good there and that we have

40:49

to

40:49

we have to be tolerant of questions

40:51

i i guess that's it we've to at when i see

40:54

this now suddenly like you know when the when

40:56

we announced that we're having kids there was

40:58

some pushback online from

41:00

more religious people on the right by

41:02

the way ninety nine percent it was all anonymous

41:04

people it was virtually nobody

41:07

that , the certainly nobody that i knew there were one

41:09

or two people that had blue checks on twitter but

41:11

was all these people you know talking

41:13

about the sanctity marriage not only

41:15

thing but i'm willing to

41:17

have that conversation have that

41:19

that preserves issues do i guess i

41:22

genuinely accept that this is this is a

41:24

little bit weird this is a little bit you know it

41:26

but it's like if we don't have these conversations

41:28

and then the thing that we're

41:30

falling apart by pulling apart marriage in family

41:32

just by saying it is anything and everything

41:34

at the exact same time rival that adding sir

41:36

are more to use bet you bet that's far

41:38

more dangerous so that's why even

41:41

if i'm sitting here now i'm sorta like a partly

41:44

don't want have this conversation be good

41:46

side i don't know the answers to all

41:48

of these things but know that we have to

41:50

be allowed to do as you're supposed talk

41:52

when you don't know the answers because that makes

41:54

you could think it through and you can exchange views

41:57

with other people and you can

41:58

you're going to you can expand your

42:00

knowledge in that domain of ignorance

42:02

i want to go back to something you said you

42:04

decided the to have you decided that

42:06

genetic similarity was an

42:08

important what

42:11

was an important factor to take into account

42:13

via know obviously that's you

42:16

doesn't arise in the case of fertile

42:18

heterosexual couples it

42:20

does if they have to adopt or they decide

42:22

to adopt instead

42:25

we know the people

42:27

there is a preference mark

42:30

preference although this might not be so

42:32

clear with adoption if

42:34

you have a step parent

42:37

you're child who's not biologically related

42:39

step parent you're at way higher

42:42

risk for abuse like way way

42:44

hundred don't remember how many for higher

42:46

but it's it's a tremendous amount think it's the

42:48

single most productive risk factors

42:51

i suppose that would probably scrap with

42:53

alcohol use but so

42:56

people are more positively inclined

42:58

to their the natick relatives

43:01

no the exact

43:03

details of that aren't clear and

43:06

it's not surprising if you think like biologist

43:08

that that would be the case that that

43:11

this had be a conscious decision

43:13

on your part in it wasn't decision that you guys

43:15

necessarily had to take so why did

43:17

you decide that was important

43:21

man it's it's one of those things what

43:24

you know i also had heard you talk about

43:27

this is part of growing of of parenting

43:29

and seeing yourself in this child

43:31

and the

43:34

your relatives do you see everything

43:37

suppose i think

43:39

i don't know that have good answer for this actually

43:42

but you most sorry but we knew it

43:44

we we knew it

43:45

we knew it when we decided we didn't want without

43:47

that we just need to know what i don't even

43:49

know how to describe out there was something important

43:51

when we had that conversation okay are we going adopt

43:53

and we really did think about it would been way

43:55

easier it would have been way less expensive

43:58

and all those things here and we will

44:00

that that can be articulated a because i

44:02

don't like i don't know that i can articulate yourself

44:05

on on on similar front is like there's

44:08

lots of unwanted babies in the world

44:11

so why isn't the ethical thing when you're

44:13

a heterosexual couple this

44:15

do job when unwanted babies why

44:19

bring another baby into world when there's a baby

44:21

that could use home and

44:23

the answer is that isn't what people

44:25

do and then question

44:27

might be well why and you can

44:29

come up with biological rational but that

44:31

doesn't mean that there's conceptual conceptual

44:34

answer handy why do you

44:36

want your own kids and answers or

44:38

something like well that's what everyone has always

44:40

done since the beginning of times it's something

44:43

like that right but it's not really an answer

44:45

know nor i graduate they oughta well

44:47

arctic this is part of partly why conservatives

44:49

are set back on heels so frequently

44:51

when they're questioned by radical the

44:54

radicals will do something like will justify

44:56

marriage the concerned a think

44:59

well we

45:01

all agreed about that like fifteen

45:04

thousand years ago and so i

45:06

don't actually have fully fleshed

45:08

out explicit rationale

45:10

and in defense for

45:12

the institution of marriage i thought

45:14

that was self evident and i

45:16

would say the preference for your own biological

45:18

children that self

45:20

evidence about it the river cruelty about

45:22

that in some real sense right but i

45:24

suppose that's the cruelty of specifically

45:27

loving some people more than you're capable

45:29

of loving every one else so maybe we just

45:32

have to accept that some things are self

45:34

evident rather than

45:36

and was we wonder why they're so that

45:38

would write serve live with a while and

45:40

suppose i became most unlikely conserve

45:42

yeah i'll have all that is eaten some

45:44

ways it doesn't really matter but

45:46

know that it is i know that it was

45:48

when we sat there and had that when brazil

45:50

should aim to show and push came to shove we said

45:53

yeah we we want to have if we're having

45:55

two kids let's have one from

45:57

a mile and his luck luck it's

46:00

only love me

46:02

and it's quite something to see are echoed in the

46:04

kids via it all my son

46:06

it's turned out that mccaleb perhaps

46:08

looks more like me and julian looks more like tammy

46:11

then i can see tammy and him and i'm

46:13

pretty happy about that you don't and

46:15

so and i suspect hopefully

46:17

she feels the same way on the other side

46:20

so that love for the person

46:22

is also echoed in the

46:24

replication in the children and then

46:26

there's more than that too because like when my son was

46:28

really little he really

46:30

like infant just a newborn infant he

46:32

would have facial expressions that i could see

46:35

we're my dad says like oh

46:37

man that looks exactly like daddy has exactly

46:39

the same facial expression and so that

46:41

echoing of other people that you love

46:43

that's not nothing yeah know that

46:46

doesn't mean that if you adopt child you can't come

46:48

to love that child is if there is your own

46:50

clearly that's possible of that doesn't

46:52

mean it's optimal and doesn't mean it's easy

46:54

i'd without pitfalls and i think the data

46:56

on step parents make that really

46:59

clear it's just part

47:01

of reason we talked about this little bit too part

47:03

of reason that heterosexual monogamy

47:06

is the ideal is because it's

47:08

also got you can't beat

47:10

it terms of efficient and right

47:12

he said of how difficult it was to produce

47:14

a child the it's not that difficult

47:16

at all if you're too heated

47:18

up fifteen year olds in the back of your father's

47:20

car it's and really loader our yeah

47:22

exactly it right it's like it's

47:24

it's as easy as falling off the bed too

47:27

easy in some sense perhaps but but

47:29

but that also indicates that

47:31

ease and efficiency also

47:34

the solid reason why a

47:36

certain kind of ideal exists you guys had

47:38

to jump through hoops and not everyone

47:40

to do that they don't have the resources

47:43

and so that that's another obstacle

47:45

it's a lot and then again without that

47:47

map without that

47:50

that's interesting thing for me it's like as

47:53

a as a sort of shifted politically

47:55

as you know that and so much my life has

47:57

been about politics talk about what think for

47:59

living and then suddenly

48:00

in all of my political

48:02

thoughts all of the the stuff that i talk

48:04

about all the time and government all these things now

48:06

it's really like it's all sitting right front

48:08

me right now that the difference between

48:10

your own personal morality and the

48:12

way government is and our role

48:14

in all of these things i

48:18

i'm trying to do i'm trying

48:21

the the self evident part of this i'm trying to do

48:23

what i know is right right right right i'll

48:26

do what i don't watch my always explicitly

48:28

explicitly explainable

48:31

and many writers and were employed do what i know

48:33

then why would i i'm trying to do what i

48:35

know i'm supposed to do about that

48:38

yeah well that would be good that would be good to try

48:40

to figure out what that isn't to walk the path

48:42

that's good thing if you could manage it's not

48:44

thing we talked about little bit in relation

48:47

decided to discuss today and relationship

48:49

to the ideal was it is also

48:51

an extremely contentious issue in case we haven't

48:53

covered enough contentious issues already

48:56

the the and

48:58

this goes back to the issue of

49:01

the conservatives who took issue with gay

49:03

marriage psych okay we're trying to start

49:05

to break down the categorical boundaries

49:07

here

49:08

where's that gonna go well we've

49:10

seen where it goes at least to some degree

49:12

and as i said i'm sympathetic to this i really

49:14

am sympathetic to this argument i well yeah i

49:16

see it i see what they were worried about and

49:19

unfortunately the last a

49:21

huge you tweeted out some a couple weeks ago

49:23

you know i was never conservative until the liberals

49:25

decided there were no rules of yeah i'm paraphrasing

49:27

you roughly but i'm sympathetic

49:29

to that so much of all the things that

49:31

we knew we no longer know

49:34

at societal level apparently and

49:36

big and that allegories a d s in between man

49:38

and woman well we could talk about out in relationship

49:41

can't use this hated phrase to the lgbt

49:44

plus

49:45

community just first all the notion

49:47

that that's an integral community is food for

49:49

refers i as you add more and more ah

49:52

letters i have no innate knowledge

49:54

of what it is more in a knowledge of what it is

49:57

to be like to be trans than you do

49:59

i happened mail aim assist

50:01

gender male i am a man born in man's

50:03

body i happened to be attracted to men

50:05

you are man born man's body you happen to be

50:07

attracted to women's i have no

50:09

more in common with a trans person

50:12

you don't have you lack of marginalization

50:14

the right you will suck but that is not that is

50:16

not unifying force that is not something

50:18

to put on a flag and say now

50:20

we are all together because was well

50:22

the question is can you see that's

50:24

the theory in some sense is that the marginalized

50:27

have more in common sense that

50:29

what differentiates have an idea how i

50:31

would buy that well there's a there's a cause i

50:33

ethnocentrism and and even racism

50:35

and it's associated with that right the different

50:38

are categorically different and are old

50:40

and bedford into same way whether that's

50:42

the next steps yeah but but the

50:44

robbers really hit the road in a terrible way

50:46

recently because you tell me what you

50:48

think about this i followed

50:50

can suckers work on the

50:52

trans on trans kids know zucker

50:55

worked at a place called cam h

50:57

a in toronto major mental

50:59

health institution and he was

51:02

a main line scientific research

51:04

or not a political type all really

51:06

a dedicated clinician and research

51:09

and he ran there under korea

51:11

treatment clinic probably that

51:13

clinic and he was the editor

51:16

of the main journals were

51:18

research on that sort topic was published

51:21

and what zucker his

51:23

treatment program

51:25

for kids with gender dysphoria that's

51:27

quite straightforward he observed

51:31

the consequence of his careful research

51:33

that about eighty five percent of

51:35

kids who manifest extreme

51:37

gender dysphoria so the sense of discomfort

51:40

then their own body and a desire to

51:42

be the opposite sex they'd

51:45

eighty five percent them would desist on

51:47

their own by the age of eighteen

51:49

or nineteen and so his hypothesis

51:52

was

51:53

leave them the hell alone because

51:55

you do the least harm that way

51:57

and most of them will settle into their bodies

51:59

as

52:00

the mature knowing that puberty

52:02

and particular especially for kids

52:04

you could imagine i'm a male who has a more

52:06

feminine temperament and who's also perhaps

52:08

hired openness so as a more mutable identity

52:11

more creative is going

52:13

to be and be and going to

52:15

be especially i fi neuroticism

52:17

as well as can be uncomfortable around

52:19

puberty never once a tentative a rump puberty

52:21

we should be should make that's great and

52:24

so just leave those believe the kids alone

52:26

but what also show this

52:29

is a killer that

52:31

is far as i'm concerned is that a

52:33

very large proportion of kids with

52:35

gender dysphoria grow

52:38

up and or hill homosexual yes

52:40

and so what that means but that certainly

52:42

me is that the

52:45

vast majority and might be as high as eighty

52:47

percent of the kids who are being convinced

52:49

now if they inhabit the wrong

52:51

bodies and are being surgically mutilated

52:55

i'm in permanent the

52:57

terrible manner the overwhelming

53:00

majority of them are gay

53:02

okay so think how twisted this is well

53:04

just so i know you know this but so think

53:07

about it this way so as said before i

53:09

seem to be people with a me i more

53:11

straight acting seem to be more you wouldn't

53:13

just meet me on the street north america okay disguise

53:15

gay rights so when i was five

53:18

or seven when i was growing up or of ten

53:20

years old i was playing with g i joe and transformers

53:22

and liked war battle and all of those

53:25

boys thought of things now there

53:27

are plenty of the kids that growing

53:29

up that like barbie or they like you

53:31

know dressing up or whatever that may be in

53:34

today's world the teacher

53:36

at the school or the administrator or

53:38

that gender expert or whatever would

53:40

probably be coaching them worried

53:42

saying that they were trans where they

53:44

would have left someone like me alone they would

53:46

be nice to think about so in in in

53:49

an odd cents the

53:51

trans movement the

53:53

extremely anti gay that

53:55

that's something that these people really after grapple

53:58

with there are gay people who work the

54:00

of eminent but they still happen to be men so

54:02

let me be there is by the way growing movement

54:04

in again that day community phrase

54:07

of of gay people who really

54:09

are pushing back on this they're really rely

54:12

on iran or iraq the worst possible

54:14

outcome in some sense well because it also

54:16

means making right because it's making

54:18

the people all seem like extremists goes

54:20

back what we started with someone stonewall happened

54:23

and fight for equality the fight for equality

54:25

is just the fight for equality is always

54:27

just so black people can vote so women

54:30

can vote in my estimation so the day

54:32

people can get married fight for equality

54:34

is good and it's a true liberal thing

54:36

to fight for once you go

54:38

from that the activists still

54:40

needed more and what did they turn that

54:42

to they turned that too the

54:45

kids the average person who was

54:47

who was protesting at stonewall if

54:49

you would have said to them know the average person that was

54:51

thirty five years old that was at bar it so i want

54:53

to be able to go to a bar that has windows

54:55

maybe that aren't blocked out that an underground

54:57

and all these things and and be in relationship

55:00

that don't have to hide whatever but

55:02

actually thirty years from now forty years from now

55:04

this is gonna be about sending your

55:06

kids' school where they're going private we discussed that

55:08

sex with teachers

55:10

moving i never really a hormonal

55:12

transformation and surgery rights

55:14

and more than that to make and here's another

55:16

perverse element of this so many

55:18

legislators around the world now have found

55:20

so called conversion therapy and to

55:23

me this has been a catastrophe now

55:25

i know that there was small percentage

55:27

mostly of fundamentalist christian

55:30

therapist types in the us who

55:32

are offering their services to homosexual

55:34

people who were unhappy with

55:36

their sexual orientation and

55:38

so could have a discussion about

55:40

whether that's ever appropriate or not although i

55:42

would say that's bloody well between the person

55:45

and their therapist as far as i'm concerned for

55:47

but now that see legal and it's illegal to

55:49

the point where you are

55:51

required why the ah

55:53

conditions of yours psychological

55:56

association professional associations

55:58

merrick and psychological association

56:00

let's say to have some

56:02

the stated identity of your client which

56:04

is completely which is a and also very difference

56:07

affirming the stated identity their

56:09

clay of decline is very different than affirming

56:11

that someone happens to be attracted to

56:13

the same sex right that those are very

56:15

different things than a than a member

56:17

ming buddies and er i dag that are not as

56:19

a therapist huge role isn't to farm

56:21

or to deny minutes of listen

56:24

right and to explore that's your

56:27

that's your purpose in in all your years

56:29

of clinical therapy and all patients that

56:31

you ever sorry i'm sure our industries are dozens

56:33

of that amount of of gay patients did you ever

56:35

meet gay man who successfully

56:38

d gate and then went on to live

56:40

of the completely functioning no

56:44

i did have client who was questioning

56:48

the

56:49

that the heterosexual route we're

56:52

on he was questioning under some duress

56:54

because he was the target of somewhat

56:57

odd wanted amorous affections

56:59

by

57:00

very persistent a gentleman

57:02

who and this person was

57:05

the easily swayed and confused that

57:08

that

57:08

was the closest i've ever seen to the

57:10

situation that you're describing this

57:13

conversion therapy issue is so

57:16

now you have therapist your

57:18

ethically and legally bound not question

57:20

the identity of your the stated identity

57:22

of your code which to me is preposterous

57:25

because all you ever do as a therapist is

57:27

question identity that's the whole bloody

57:30

that's whole block enterprise and

57:33

you don't you don't affirming or deny you really

57:35

don't you do it as a as a questioner

57:37

and strategist then

57:39

we have the other conversion therapy which is

57:41

surgical conversions and that's

57:43

not only legal but opposing

57:45

it has become a crime and so

57:47

that's a form of insanity

57:50

that that i just can i can

57:52

just barely wrap my head around so so what

57:54

do we do going back to the to conservatives

57:56

that were worried yeah this is where we were

57:58

gonna end up to in some

58:00

sense

58:01

i should probably be their greatest hero

58:03

because if i go here's someone who wanted

58:06

to enter the boy society

58:08

wanted to have for most of

58:10

the long fought time tested

58:13

ideals wanted to enter

58:15

the world with those things help defend that

58:17

world it

58:19

happened be a little different than than we

58:22

would think brian okay it's it's two guys

58:24

i can't deny it i should sort

58:26

of be a hero them it's is not the

58:28

ideal one that they went for but it's approximately

58:31

close enough to dismiss should be pretty good

58:33

i suppose that will be my challenge challenge

58:35

maybe that i yeah that's probably true

58:37

my suspicions are them

58:39

when we release this discussion that the overwhelming

58:42

majority people will be sympathetic

58:44

to your situation and why

58:47

willing to the render

58:49

harsh judgment and maybe that doesn't

58:51

exclude and we should get to this to somebody

58:53

more fundamentalist religious

58:55

types but you also said earlier that

58:57

as far as you're concerned

58:59

they also have a point there is

59:01

point is a world the point there has to be

59:03

a point there because look gay marriage

59:05

was legalized i think at a federal level

59:07

in united states in two thousand fifteen of not

59:10

mistaken so that were now seven

59:12

years off of that might look at all

59:14

of the craziness that has happened since i'm

59:16

not directly connecting into that's

59:19

but

59:19

when you change fundamental structures

59:22

some weird things are going to happens

59:24

this is again where would lay most of the blame

59:27

here i would lay on the sort of

59:29

liberal establishment where nobody was willing

59:31

to to defend anything and it's why ps

59:34

it's basically were a blow the prompt destroy

59:36

every a problem maybe comes is so we had this

59:38

implicit idea which were already discussed

59:40

which is heterosexual monogamy long

59:43

term they've all of that

59:46

good will that impossible ideal

59:48

that people strive towards and there's real boundary

59:50

their right like a real boundary it's man

59:53

and a woman one man and one

59:55

woman they're bound together over

59:57

the course of their life the community sports that

59:59

i get some the definable box and

1:00:02

then you say well the

1:00:04

let walls down and so we include single

1:00:06

mothers me into gay couples and it's like yeah

1:00:09

but the was going now and so what

1:00:11

else you include an answer

1:00:13

is well we don't know

1:00:17

the not actually not very good answer right

1:00:19

as what happens is anyone

1:00:22

who knocks to now come in then

1:00:24

you think that's great because we're being tolerant but

1:00:26

the problem is well what happens when all

1:00:29

the people in the room her now invited in

1:00:31

actually do not agree

1:00:34

at all and said any of this was ever

1:00:36

good in the first place that a rat bastard

1:00:39

or what should be done because you can imagine know

1:00:41

if you have a if you're dealing

1:00:44

with ten year old boy whose whose

1:00:46

the eleven year old boy let's a

1:00:49

little closer gilbert the

1:00:51

ambivalent about his sexual attraction

1:00:53

and his sexual identity it auto

1:00:56

the more feminine temperament

1:00:58

with which is not rare money way because lot

1:01:00

overlap between muslims eminent evidence

1:01:03

and now you have to decide is

1:01:06

this boy okay to be

1:01:08

gay or is he trans then

1:01:10

that's hell of decision to have to make especially

1:01:12

when you can't actually have real discussion

1:01:14

about was headed when the parents the parents

1:01:17

had and move when issue isn't allowed

1:01:19

to who

1:01:20

are you a link or ask in essence as

1:01:22

soon as one in especially when it's accompanied

1:01:24

by the pressure which is a complete bloody lies

1:01:27

it well if you don't like this kid transition

1:01:29

right now oh you're going to do

1:01:31

is cause

1:01:33

more damage you're going to increase the risk suicide

1:01:35

which by the way think is a claim that there is

1:01:37

absolutely zero evidence for zero

1:01:40

evidence for we just don't have even as

1:01:42

the american psychological association minutes

1:01:44

we have no good long term follow up

1:01:46

data on the mental health of people

1:01:48

who transitioned over a reasonable period

1:01:50

time it just doesn't exist for obvious

1:01:53

reasons it's only just started to have rights

1:01:55

and will probably and ten years will have well made

1:01:57

innings of evidence of it and i have already looming

1:01:59

assume

1:02:00

that were in situation where such evidence

1:02:02

could good collected and

1:02:04

discussed in anything approaching

1:02:06

a rational and truly empirical

1:02:08

fashion well as you know you know deborah so doctor

1:02:10

ever so it was sex researcher mean she was bringing

1:02:12

up a lot of these issues and basically just pushed

1:02:14

out the philo yeah they're all in increasingly

1:02:16

the scientific journals the scientific journals

1:02:19

won't publish that sort of study and look like

1:02:21

a pay cut zoc her off at the nice

1:02:23

man a threw them out of cam age he went

1:02:25

the world's preeminent researcher in the field

1:02:27

of gender dysphoria and he

1:02:29

would like said he wasn't a political guy which is partly

1:02:31

why they could go after him so easily so he

1:02:33

sued the toronto star he sued

1:02:35

the university of toronto newspaper

1:02:38

the sued cam age he won all three lawsuits

1:02:41

though

1:02:42

any have to spend most his life suing my

1:02:44

journalism at doing only one

1:02:46

who is a cancelled right and and that's

1:02:49

devastating for someone it's i

1:02:51

would say it's equivalent been cancelled

1:02:53

in series sense is roughly equivalent having

1:02:55

a near fatal illness it is no bloody

1:02:57

job

1:02:58

so yeah so i don't know if we'll ever be able to

1:03:00

gather the information we need to gather about

1:03:02

such things so it seems me what we're talking

1:03:04

about here is it with that ideal

1:03:06

than what is what the levers

1:03:08

that we have for sort of judicious

1:03:10

gates

1:03:11

so that single mother from really

1:03:13

is doing her best will be

1:03:15

welcomed into society where that the gay couple

1:03:18

who wants to be part of what the

1:03:20

ideal is will be welcomed in i

1:03:22

don't know what all firewalls are on

1:03:24

that i think that's partly what the problem is right

1:03:26

mean we don't have firewalls liberals put

1:03:28

our heads above everything in their

1:03:30

iraqi tolerance is most important thing

1:03:33

okay we've tolerated everything now

1:03:35

everyone in the house between tolerance

1:03:37

and carelessness is very difficult one

1:03:39

to establish and if you are careless

1:03:41

especially in your conceptualization and perhaps

1:03:44

in your actions the best mask for that carelessness

1:03:46

as to proclaim yourself to be tolerance

1:03:48

all everything it owes it's

1:03:50

like well that's because you have zero discipline and

1:03:52

you're you're and you're a

1:03:54

note that know ordered

1:03:56

conceptualization of the world whatsoever

1:03:59

does of your life

1:04:00

when you're going to pass on it all off

1:04:02

as moral virtue and while we're definitely

1:04:04

seen the consequences that especially in

1:04:06

the transition

1:04:08

i mean it completely burst forth so

1:04:10

that's why when people say the lgbtq

1:04:13

i don't even know what the madagascar with q

1:04:15

is i no idea what the i as as

1:04:17

said the t's as our friend douglas

1:04:19

murray wrote in in his last

1:04:21

book you know when he wrote his chapter on

1:04:23

on the gays the elves and and

1:04:25

the geez the lesbians and gays he separated

1:04:27

that from the t chapter very effectively

1:04:30

these things have nothing to do with each other

1:04:32

in the more that we can fight these things the

1:04:34

more that we're going to be unable to have any

1:04:36

level of this conversation

1:04:39

gentlemen low in the conflation is dangerous

1:04:41

because the assumption is you

1:04:43

know the the workers the students

1:04:45

made same erroneous assumption back

1:04:48

the nineteen sixties when they allied themselves

1:04:50

with such people as the hell's angels for

1:04:52

example the stewed radicals and like well we're all

1:04:54

marginalized we all have that

1:04:56

marxist oppression in

1:04:58

com and net unites us and unite

1:05:01

means that were aiming for the same thing it's

1:05:03

like well we found out l to martha

1:05:05

hell's angels were exactly aiming at the

1:05:07

same thing earth or maybe they were

1:05:09

you know and some nefarious manner so

1:05:12

the mere fact that it also

1:05:14

clearly the case that the more people that you

1:05:17

aggregate on margins and then it for

1:05:19

attempt bring into the center of the less

1:05:21

likely you're going to get some homogenous

1:05:23

viewpoint and you might think what we

1:05:25

don't need a margin as viewpoint but we certainly

1:05:27

do if it comes to such things as surgical

1:05:29

transformation of children who are more

1:05:31

likely to be gay so than what you think

1:05:33

that what think my role that could

1:05:35

be or people i have you conversation

1:05:38

right because we this is uncharted territory

1:05:41

like you literally are in uncharted territory

1:05:43

and your attitude is something like

1:05:47

well i'm already deviating a lot from the norm

1:05:51

and so maybe i should not deviate

1:05:53

anymore than

1:05:55

i absolutely have to and i would also

1:05:57

say that should apply to everyone else

1:05:59

everyone

1:06:00

their idiosyncrasies and thank god for that

1:06:02

and we definitely need great of people are we even

1:06:04

he'd some creative weirdos you know because

1:06:06

god only knows when they'll come in handy but

1:06:08

the rule of thumb should still be

1:06:11

the degree that you're able to uphold

1:06:13

the norms and ideals of the collective

1:06:15

society you have moral obligation

1:06:17

to do that you night i wrote in my first

1:06:19

book and think it was an idea i sort of

1:06:22

morphed us i peered your when said to me that

1:06:24

ah that straight people spread

1:06:26

the jeans and gay people spread the

1:06:28

means meaning it's obvious the

1:06:30

genes part is obvious how straight people multiplied

1:06:33

but gay people why did why did so much

1:06:35

culture and art and music and

1:06:37

so many interesting things about societies

1:06:40

where ever gay people are wired to

1:06:42

artists always living around the gay people wire

1:06:44

why is that the place where all all the kind

1:06:46

of weirdos marginal people are and

1:06:48

then that creativity ever look for ever

1:06:50

met so how you combine those the hiding

1:06:53

take that might be so

1:06:55

we know that that intense

1:06:57

creativity is a trait right

1:06:59

it's temperamental trait so you can be very intelligent

1:07:02

the never hired you and below and creativity

1:07:05

intelligence

1:07:06

is good predictor creativity but they are

1:07:08

somewhat separate room so

1:07:10

then the question is what what does what is

1:07:12

creativity some

1:07:14

of it is mutable identity a creative

1:07:16

person the more creative you are the less

1:07:19

your the same from moment moment hour

1:07:21

hour day to day

1:07:22

almost by definition right you're shapeshifter

1:07:25

and change your a trickster and

1:07:28

and the the the boundaries

1:07:30

of conception that found

1:07:32

you

1:07:33

our much looser if you're creative

1:07:35

and so it's possible that like

1:07:37

i was very difficult to come from homosexuality

1:07:40

from a biological perspective right because you

1:07:42

would assume that if anything

1:07:44

was going to be disappear in the

1:07:46

course of sequential reproductions

1:07:48

the inability to reproduce would be

1:07:50

up in alabama position brighter and raleigh

1:07:52

area with early seventies and so

1:07:54

what that has to meet his has to mean something

1:07:56

like there are reproductive

1:07:59

benefits to so the factors that tilt

1:08:01

toward some asexuality that are so powerful

1:08:04

that they counterbalance the negative

1:08:06

consequence being able to unable to

1:08:08

reproduce and it may see it

1:08:10

may be that fair

1:08:13

bit about manifests itself on the creativity

1:08:15

side know because creek and would

1:08:17

say that the kids who are most likely to be

1:08:20

we studied at harvard and never did publish

1:08:22

this off variety of reasons when

1:08:26

putting and piercing first became popular

1:08:29

i was very curious about whether

1:08:32

not that was marker for psychopathology

1:08:34

right for for for the proclivity words mental

1:08:36

illness and before

1:08:38

it became popular was subculture think read

1:08:40

it was carnies certain types

1:08:43

like marginal people prisoners

1:08:45

it was real subculture art for

1:08:47

piercing and and body modification in

1:08:50

all a sudden it went mainstream in the question is

1:08:52

well who were was on the forefront

1:08:55

of it's introduction popular

1:08:57

culture so we studied a whole bunch of people

1:08:59

this was very early on in the process to

1:09:01

try to find out if they showed

1:09:04

signs of mental illness or if it was a consequence

1:09:06

of temperamental durability and what we saw

1:09:08

was that there is no sign whatsoever

1:09:10

that it was associated with mental illness from

1:09:12

it all loaded on openness and

1:09:14

so if you are more creative more

1:09:17

mutable more able

1:09:19

to shift shape let's say and

1:09:21

perhaps more likely to

1:09:24

i don't know i don't think there's any doubt on this if

1:09:26

if people who are high and openness are

1:09:28

more likely to show some signs

1:09:30

of holmes

1:09:31

said similar attraction wouldn't surprise

1:09:34

me leave out of it sorta sounds rather right

1:09:36

up to a boundaries are the

1:09:38

the boundaries thinner and more porous so it could

1:09:40

easily be the case should so it could be they

1:09:43

all if the reason overlap there with creativity

1:09:45

that would explain genetic tilt that

1:09:47

would keep homosexuality the population

1:09:50

but it would also explain what does especially

1:09:52

on the male homosexual front there does seem

1:09:54

to be an axis of creativity

1:09:57

there and so the

1:09:59

case that certainly at least by

1:10:01

stereotypical reputation

1:10:03

there is a higher proportion

1:10:05

of gay people among the creative

1:10:07

types than you would expect so soda

1:10:09

going to really dangerous territory than if

1:10:11

we haven't done it so far i mean does what you're saying

1:10:13

right there sort of show you why they're going

1:10:16

after kids right now so that the

1:10:18

idea is there going for kids because they're grooming

1:10:20

them and think lot people think that means they're grooming

1:10:22

them for sex i'm not exactly sure

1:10:24

that's right i think they're grooming them for something

1:10:27

more person awaits which is that

1:10:29

if you can get these kids at five

1:10:31

six years old who know nothing about sex

1:10:33

or gender identity or anything i was just

1:10:35

that my seven year old niece is a birthday

1:10:38

party at of at an arts troops place

1:10:40

the idea that you would talk to any of these kids whether

1:10:42

you were there at the uncles or a

1:10:44

teacher any us about sex and gender is crazy

1:10:47

or it's completely insane sant so it's

1:10:49

something like they're not grooming them

1:10:52

to to molest them exactly although

1:10:54

obviously that exists it's they're actually

1:10:56

grooming them because their minds are so malleable

1:10:58

and open at that point and they're they're

1:11:00

so sort of not fix to

1:11:02

any world view anything that is like

1:11:04

me a vacant once the to get you at that

1:11:06

age every mm decline every day

1:11:08

is why are everything's on the same idea you can

1:11:11

i think you can make a psychological

1:11:13

case for this is like well imagine

1:11:15

that your deviant you're guilty

1:11:17

about

1:11:18

so that's and guilt is gonna be heavy and

1:11:21

and person

1:11:22

just as guilty as whenever we deviate

1:11:24

from the norm or the ideal and so

1:11:26

one response to that is to straighten

1:11:29

yourself up until it yourself back towards the

1:11:31

ideal are the norm and another is

1:11:33

to are they called actors as specific

1:11:36

overcompensation to overcompensate

1:11:39

say well not only is this not

1:11:41

deviant but it's a positive good

1:11:44

and you kind of that

1:11:46

little bit when you talked about being attracted

1:11:48

to the more flamboyant types when you were young

1:11:50

right yes and so if it's positive

1:11:52

good then well why not why

1:11:55

not the human race

1:11:57

that by insisting that shield

1:12:00

they are allowed are encouraged to go down

1:12:02

that path now but i

1:12:04

think that's also that women but there's a twist

1:12:06

in that to and that the terrible twist

1:12:08

there is that this

1:12:10

is one the things that pathologizing our culture

1:12:12

in general is that it's really

1:12:15

really easy fly

1:12:17

the tolerance flag as a marker

1:12:19

for your stellar reputation

1:12:21

so there isn't anything more valuable than any

1:12:23

of us owns that our reputation it

1:12:25

marks are utility as

1:12:28

an interactive partner reputation

1:12:30

is everything so if you

1:12:32

can what and problem and you build

1:12:34

reputation january through personal

1:12:36

interaction over the long run that stable

1:12:39

productive reliable honest generous

1:12:41

all the virtues right

1:12:44

, and you trust someone in your interact

1:12:46

with them the problem with reputation

1:12:48

is that can be game notice

1:12:50

this is game and matthew millions game

1:12:54

psychopaths game and

1:12:56

he can be expert added and

1:12:58

can fool you into thinking they're competent

1:13:02

when all they are is confident

1:13:04

and so because reputation

1:13:06

can be gamed you can play

1:13:08

moral virtue let's say because

1:13:10

you're the whole rent

1:13:12

and you can ratchet up the reputation

1:13:14

points like are given example was

1:13:16

the flag right as the gay pride as well

1:13:19

but that's it yeah that's it it's it's

1:13:21

and earned school for some for

1:13:23

they've combine this with pride which actually makes

1:13:25

no sense mean i am i'm not any prouder

1:13:27

of up proud to be gay it's not a not

1:13:30

saying i'm not ashamed of it anymore as an ally

1:13:32

years same developing seemed of it's and

1:13:34

that was all sorts problems so what does not

1:13:36

need that something's not right we also

1:13:38

says i'm proud of work that i've done in the world

1:13:40

that world that think i would something good

1:13:43

night's fought for some level of truth and i've helped

1:13:45

amplify incredible people like this

1:13:47

canadians psychology professor

1:13:49

who was you know seven years ago up

1:13:51

in canada and i put him on my show him and he

1:13:54

became jordan peterson like the i'm proud of

1:13:56

that a but i'm not for like i know

1:13:58

that even pride i wouldn't say that the

1:14:00

the sense of a job well done

1:14:03

the

1:14:03

valuable domain right side out say

1:14:05

that route yeah yeah but but but it's

1:14:07

important to get the words right just because

1:14:09

pride has be precise orphans he's been

1:14:11

regarded as a sin because pride

1:14:13

means an overweening

1:14:16

self confidence that not

1:14:18

justified by the accomplishments and

1:14:20

fact that we do have pride day and pride

1:14:22

weekend pride month now which really

1:14:24

is pushing things a little bit too far

1:14:26

would say is well what are

1:14:28

the flag gets to exactly what you were saying right

1:14:30

it's this is this thing actually represents

1:14:32

nothing right as as

1:14:35

i'm hyper tolerant therefore i am i

1:14:37

had stellar reputation it's the collapse

1:14:39

of reputation into a single dimension

1:14:43

where carelessness and tolerance can

1:14:45

easily be confused and so it's game

1:14:47

that particularly narcissistic people will

1:14:49

pay because while that is the game

1:14:51

that narcissus play period which is to elevate

1:14:53

their reputations status without doing

1:14:55

any of the work and we set up a

1:14:57

society now where the most effective

1:14:59

way of doing that is by claiming

1:15:02

a universal tolerance and if you have

1:15:04

to sacrifice children to that oh

1:15:06

well i saw this woman who worked

1:15:08

for disney i don't remember what she was in charge

1:15:10

of who said she had a oh the

1:15:12

poly sexual yeah yeah he had a

1:15:14

a a what would you can sexual think

1:15:17

yeah pan sexual and trans kid

1:15:19

it's like okay what are the odds

1:15:21

of that let's say it's one

1:15:23

hundred thousand per cell so that's

1:15:25

one the million on that you're telling the truth

1:15:28

what in million perhaps especially

1:15:30

on the pan social front

1:15:32

what the hell does that mean since we only invented

1:15:34

the term like three weeks ago and

1:15:37

what's the probability both those kids turned

1:15:39

up and your family and that has nothing

1:15:41

to do with your narcissism and willingness

1:15:43

to exploit your children such as

1:15:45

one and million okay that's

1:15:47

it's one in twenty is enough to draw

1:15:50

a scientific conclusion and boy you're not just

1:15:52

accountant at disney or someone that works in

1:15:54

the diversity equity inclusion office at

1:15:56

disney well as a heck of coincide yes yes

1:15:58

yes exactly it's a real incidents

1:16:00

it's real quick look at way disney folded

1:16:02

to this yeah look at way do older to

1:16:04

this i just did show in orlando's

1:16:06

the last show on my tour a

1:16:08

and we purposely went to orlando to and tour

1:16:10

and and governor de santis know they associate he's

1:16:12

the biggest homophobe in america and don't say gay

1:16:15

even though the bill has nothing to do with

1:16:17

being gay and dissenters has been nothing other

1:16:19

than kind to me and sent us

1:16:21

he and his wife sent us to baby onesies

1:16:24

a you know for our for our kids i mean these

1:16:26

are good decent people he is fighting

1:16:28

indoctrination in schools

1:16:30

but after the orlando show when do the meet and

1:16:32

greet i met about about one thousand

1:16:34

people there we did meet greet for about two

1:16:36

hundred people i met probably twenty five

1:16:38

maybe forty people who were disney

1:16:40

employees who every single one them told

1:16:42

me they completely against this and they and

1:16:44

that virtually everyone that they know the company completely

1:16:47

against this but the inmates running the

1:16:49

asylum so that video that you saw that chris

1:16:51

ruvo was one who founded and leaked

1:16:53

it where they're basically all you

1:16:55

know getting the the ceo the bob

1:16:57

chapek are basically getting him to bow out

1:17:00

that town hall which was a there was

1:17:02

harper just completely idiotic

1:17:04

management decisions but in any cow town

1:17:07

we haven't been sensitive enough it's like since

1:17:09

when do you let and whiny stock boys

1:17:11

make the executive decisions and

1:17:13

what you know

1:17:14

jordan what was one the first things that sort

1:17:16

of put you on map in the big sense you are always talking

1:17:18

about pinocchio writing because it's the perfect

1:17:20

the stories the perfect story of the

1:17:22

of the child and the whole thing well

1:17:25

now disney saying they're purposely conflating

1:17:28

all the stories when they're putting movies out

1:17:30

there telling you that they're doing it and people are proudly

1:17:32

telling you yeah well they're all pretty hard on the

1:17:34

buzz lightyear front last in the lab it

1:17:36

did not do well without the anatomy leno it's

1:17:39

very difficult to turn

1:17:41

stories in the free market into propaganda

1:17:43

because people jesus say it well i'm not watching

1:17:45

that so what you do with that so they put a i

1:17:47

guess they put a a same sex kiss in

1:17:49

like yeah so what do do with that on a

1:17:52

on a marginal side so if you want to say okay

1:17:54

it's okay to be gay but then you also

1:17:56

don't want indoctrinate now what do do

1:17:58

is to look that's part of

1:18:00

the battle the we're having the school systems

1:18:02

right now because you go in this part of slippery

1:18:04

slope that we discussed it's like the

1:18:06

an acceptable the

1:18:08

tolerated the equal

1:18:12

celebrate okay there

1:18:14

may not be any border

1:18:17

between once

1:18:19

it's not forbidden maybe it's

1:18:21

mandatory celebrate we

1:18:23

don't know right we don't know

1:18:26

on twenty three the tiny i know

1:18:28

you are well let's just go for equal even

1:18:31

not celebre equal

1:18:32

yeah but we don't know what to do about that because now

1:18:35

we have children

1:18:37

there are nine years old and there being exposed to a

1:18:39

diverse range of literature what

1:18:42

proportion of those should be gay

1:18:44

themed what do everyone

1:18:46

should we don't know right to to be exactly

1:18:49

proportional to the man gay people does that make any

1:18:51

sense okay so to be nine percent the

1:18:53

literature they read will be gay rights me that

1:18:55

rape why know him away as and

1:18:57

it's also a hell of way of categorizing literature

1:18:59

which is you know what the literary critics do

1:19:01

now but that's no one has ever categorized

1:19:03

new to like that in the history humanity

1:19:06

the the literature that we have conserve

1:19:09

is only the literature that for

1:19:11

one reason other people have been interested enough

1:19:14

in to remember and we don't even know

1:19:16

why mean we've been able to more

1:19:18

loved some the underlying archetypal themes

1:19:20

but if you subjugate literature

1:19:22

to statistics

1:19:25

predicated on a the all the all that happens

1:19:27

you don't enlightened any one you don't make anything more

1:19:29

he was just destroy literature

1:19:32

and you get real taste that very quickly when

1:19:34

you see how appalling the

1:19:36

narrative level most whoa propaganda

1:19:39

is and so when free market that

1:19:41

problem is probably going to take care of itself but

1:19:43

i don't know what to do with

1:19:46

it conceptually because

1:19:48

the problem really is a difficult

1:19:50

one is like well if it's not forbidden

1:19:52

the now it's tolerate but not tolerate know

1:19:54

it's equal right

1:19:56

right and that you teach kids and

1:19:59

i think the answers to be

1:20:02

they don't teach them about sex at all that

1:20:05

might be one answer and then i really wasn't

1:20:07

kind of right about that when they oppose sex

1:20:09

education to begin with and so that's

1:20:11

pretty terrifying or

1:20:14

you take your kids the hell out the public school which

1:20:16

seems be what people are doing and then there's a diverse

1:20:19

range of solutions and he let the

1:20:21

market sorted out but i also think

1:20:23

this is a major catastrophe because i'm

1:20:26

convinced that the biggest predictor

1:20:28

of the wealth of the society the

1:20:30

interpersonal trust the only

1:20:33

genuine natural resource is interpersonal

1:20:35

trust and in a society where

1:20:37

the default presupposition in a

1:20:39

trade is trust everyone's gonna

1:20:41

be rich soon regardless even

1:20:43

whether they have any natural resource japanese

1:20:46

don't have any natural resources the

1:20:49

have very honest society and they're rich

1:20:51

and the honesty is a huge part

1:20:53

of why what happens

1:20:55

when you start distrusting fundamental institutions

1:20:57

well everyone

1:21:00

skeptical about everyone else that's horrible

1:21:02

cognitive emotional burden and

1:21:04

then what's a marker for that emerged distrust

1:21:07

how about i don't trust

1:21:09

the age i don't trust my children in the hands

1:21:12

of the agents of the stuff he

1:21:14

is

1:21:14

there's more and were running our that

1:21:16

wrote home and were run don't know question

1:21:19

really you is so anyone watching this probably

1:21:21

say hey where they are already where we asked

1:21:23

were two thirds of the way to the bottomless

1:21:25

pit he now it's you know it's bottomless yeah so

1:21:27

the question is will have you get out that

1:21:29

i guess societal he may be there is

1:21:32

no real way there is no grand experiment

1:21:34

get societal he out of that in country

1:21:36

from american perspective three hundred fifty million

1:21:39

people with fifty states and all the religions

1:21:41

of america as weird version of this because

1:21:43

of the way we are fundamentally created

1:21:46

in that the from every walk of

1:21:48

life from every corner your of people came here

1:21:50

to make a better life so it's a little bit

1:21:52

easier if were look at japan and say okay yeah

1:21:54

yeah here's homogenous society what

1:21:57

one of the questions this might seem

1:21:59

only or related but when

1:22:01

when the people who

1:22:04

your your country is founded on the notion

1:22:06

that there are self evident truths

1:22:09

as far as i can tell you my nose truths

1:22:12

to be self righteous i set out with question

1:22:14

is why were these self evident and i

1:22:16

would say the reason they were self evident

1:22:18

was because the political

1:22:20

narrative and political philosophy including

1:22:22

the small l liberal floor speech was

1:22:25

embedded inside a bedrock essentially

1:22:27

of judeo christian presumptions and

1:22:29

that was so pervasive that

1:22:32

the idea that that would disappear

1:22:35

was in comprehensible

1:22:37

because those things were taken as of

1:22:39

course that's the way things are it's self

1:22:41

evident well when that self evident

1:22:43

starts to dissolve that's the death of god

1:22:45

nietzsche and death of god then

1:22:48

all of these all

1:22:50

of what unites society starts

1:22:52

to disappear right down to the conceptual level

1:22:55

even down to the point where you can't tell the difference

1:22:57

between a man and would actually so jordan's youtube

1:22:59

if you know now maybe we're getting to the

1:23:01

answer to previous question which is so now if you say

1:23:04

to a six year old you are biologically

1:23:06

now what you are

1:23:08

maybe do self evident truths that every other

1:23:11

level will dissolve out of

1:23:13

our body damn boy linked well i think

1:23:15

it's that will speed that long it's

1:23:17

also reflection the fact that that's happened

1:23:19

that means we need to proclaim the death

1:23:21

of god he believes that

1:23:24

or conceptual categories would fall even

1:23:27

in and i think one the conceptual

1:23:29

categories that is falling even

1:23:31

on the scientific found his belief

1:23:33

in the room reality of the objective world

1:23:35

that's maybe transcendent police to

1:23:38

we don't know could easily be so

1:23:41

what i've been trying to do about this in

1:23:43

the deepest senses to try

1:23:45

to understand consciously

1:23:48

the psychological substructure of

1:23:50

that which produces self evidence

1:23:53

the night i did that for i've been doing that

1:23:55

partly because

1:23:58

that was what carl young command he

1:24:00

thought that was what we were going have to do over

1:24:02

the next hundred years let's say has become conscious

1:24:05

of the religious bet

1:24:07

the necessary religious bedrock of or

1:24:09

society it's complicated

1:24:11

thing to do conscious lower sort of like whether

1:24:13

you believe you believe or not yeah

1:24:15

believe the i want that is right or

1:24:17

i your authorial drive man sits there

1:24:19

and and this united the know

1:24:21

and so i've been trying to delve

1:24:24

as deeply as possible into this underlying

1:24:26

substructure of the

1:24:29

so called self evidence and

1:24:31

the what that's worth mean people seem to

1:24:33

be responding to it very positively at

1:24:35

least insofar as i can determine that

1:24:38

by the reaction to my books in my lectures

1:24:40

but it's a hell of a job done to take

1:24:42

sword like it's like trying to

1:24:44

come up with an explanation for why you

1:24:46

and dave decided that you wanted have genetic

1:24:48

relatives for your children sort sort

1:24:50

like nice is sort of like why am i right

1:24:53

this very moment having a conversation

1:24:56

at if you would have said to me ten years ago i'm having

1:24:58

i would have said there's no way in high hell would

1:25:00

ever be having that conclusion i'm the last

1:25:02

suited person on earth tab that conversations

1:25:05

with the twenty years in my life that spent struggling

1:25:07

with my sexuality and doing drugs

1:25:09

and and all of the self destructive things

1:25:11

that i did that i thank god that

1:25:13

out of a large part because of you in large

1:25:16

part because david and in something that was

1:25:18

sparked in me somehow for a what you

1:25:20

think what you think it was

1:25:22

what do you think it was that rescued you

1:25:24

from that self destructive sam

1:25:26

shallow hedonism why

1:25:29

why why did you

1:25:32

how did you manage to why

1:25:34

do you think that the notion

1:25:37

that you overcame it is the right

1:25:39

no should right because you're making the case that

1:25:41

your current mode of existence preferable

1:25:44

practically unethically to that so

1:25:46

why do was hauling of it

1:25:48

was going up there probably sounds like most cheesy thing

1:25:50

i do could ever say or maybe it's i thought maybe know

1:25:52

and i didn't love is supposed to be the logical read

1:25:54

or write or sit out there at it than

1:25:56

as it at some point know i had

1:25:59

all sorts of release that's or one night stands

1:26:01

or god only knows what was doing for long time

1:26:03

and then at some point when david and i started

1:26:05

dating little bit more being together a little bit

1:26:07

more and then at some point out like just hit me one

1:26:09

day i remember were sitting there were sitting a mexican

1:26:11

restaurant on eighty third amsterdam it we'd been to

1:26:13

million handedness i love him i can't

1:26:15

believe it and then i thought though

1:26:18

i mean like the there's something here

1:26:20

there's some that purchase hit me it was

1:26:22

just there and was there and then was like why

1:26:24

damn well better be better than i am good

1:26:26

i was still broken the so why did why

1:26:29

did because of because because i loved

1:26:31

him and i wanted him to be around someone that was probably

1:26:33

better than me or something i ran right

1:26:35

my bad not as good definition of

1:26:37

love right as been wouldn't if you

1:26:39

love someone wouldn't you try to offer them the

1:26:42

bears and of yourself and that's also why

1:26:44

so when when we were on tour and

1:26:46

i'm watching you are hundred twenty five nights

1:26:48

in row talk about this this incredible

1:26:51

innate need for almost everyone

1:26:53

to be parents much in you do the

1:26:55

elders land i'm going man this guy's change

1:26:57

everybody's life that that is thousands

1:26:59

of people that come into this thing and i'm talking to

1:27:01

him on the side about how he wants kids

1:27:03

and i'm looking at myself going know i'm the outlier

1:27:06

and this thing i'm the outliers right

1:27:08

partner wants kids wants or wants

1:27:10

us to live life together wants us to live as full

1:27:12

thing as humanly possible

1:27:15

the same thing that our parents did before us in

1:27:17

our grandparents didn't everybody all down

1:27:19

the way down and i'm on tour with this guy

1:27:21

who's saying the things that things am literally seeing

1:27:23

people's lives

1:27:25

just absolute open up in best possible

1:27:27

sense and or and put down all of their crap

1:27:29

and all that stuff but i'm the exception to

1:27:31

all right and that seems crazy errors

1:27:34

try that prime

1:27:36

man it and that and nyquist

1:27:38

to do is you really wanna

1:27:40

be the exception

1:27:42

no i didn't want to buy set out so brutal

1:27:44

place to be i mean sometimes you're cursed

1:27:46

you know maybe you're even spectacular

1:27:48

genius of nietzsche and proportions and

1:27:51

your the exception it

1:27:52

isn't clear that you weren't wish that sort fate

1:27:55

on your worst enemy

1:27:56

that issue when i said you before that i

1:27:58

some forty six now

1:28:00

i'm ready for the next phase i've done everything

1:28:03

i can do it this phase a hiatus

1:28:05

phase of life like yes could have

1:28:07

more nights out drinking and annals

1:28:09

still have those nights out occasionally or whatever it's

1:28:11

can is there anything else that i can do i've

1:28:13

done everything can do their i know

1:28:15

there is some piece of the things

1:28:17

that i just know it it's again it's like

1:28:20

i can't say a how i know it just know there's some peace

1:28:22

now that is supposed to put this for puzzle

1:28:24

together and it's pretty damn close and as i

1:28:26

said you when we had dinner couple weeks ago you

1:28:29

know it's like i don't how many people would be able

1:28:31

to walk into parenthood regardless of whether they

1:28:33

were gay or straight anything else that

1:28:35

have put enough the pieces together

1:28:37

in way that i am that would that were financially

1:28:40

as comfortable and worse we in a loving

1:28:42

relationships and have loving family

1:28:44

behind us and and that i'm a full

1:28:46

person that i'm doing what i'm supposed to doing

1:28:48

in ot mean i wake up with a passion and desire

1:28:51

you know i've had i've had my

1:28:53

moral qualms about the suitability

1:28:55

of let's say gay relationships

1:28:58

and gay marriage is puzzling that out knowing

1:29:00

that specially on the side of male homosexuality

1:29:03

that as long as there's been recorded

1:29:05

history there's some percentage the

1:29:07

to three percent perhaps of males

1:29:10

who have a strong homosexual proclivity it's

1:29:12

less clear on this email side i would say

1:29:15

so there's no denying that is

1:29:17

reality and then you

1:29:20

know i really i like you and admire

1:29:22

you and i certainly feel the same way about

1:29:24

douglas murray said that very close friends

1:29:26

who were gay and many students as well

1:29:29

and so you know that

1:29:31

stance it's a

1:29:33

case in point but then i also around

1:29:36

talking do on the tour i thought

1:29:38

though my

1:29:41

personal sense was what

1:29:43

you want to have kids that's good thing

1:29:45

and and so i would be

1:29:47

fully supportive of vast end

1:29:49

so congratulations daves yeah

1:29:51

and that's that's the same

1:29:53

smile and smile and

1:29:56

beauty that you i've always

1:29:58

shown to me and showed the

1:30:01

everybody dad everyone that's walk into

1:30:03

this thing and and well

1:30:05

i and did i hope that it changes

1:30:08

you even more for the better the

1:30:10

it's very likely and i would say

1:30:13

one of the things that so remarkable

1:30:15

about having children is if

1:30:17

you're careful and you wanted can

1:30:20

have the best relationship that you've

1:30:22

ever had in your life

1:30:25

it's right there that's what kid wants you

1:30:28

could have so

1:30:31

how such man

1:30:35

good talk your dave a jordan

1:30:38

there aren't words there aren't words a

1:30:41

lotta talking but there are ways for what we did

1:30:43

hear hey thank you my friend you bet now

1:30:45

that i'm looking forward to

1:30:47

seeing your kids it