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coming up next on the jordan harbinger show

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us

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to

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needlessly make ourselves

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of humanity devote their

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lives to just divisive

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and that i think that's really what we should

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be doing of all day long and their creativity

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and love and wisdom and good

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welcome to the show i'm jordan harbinger on

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1:33

one from a vault we're talking with sam harris

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once again conversation that we recorded

1:37

several years back on a different show his

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episodes here on this show have always

1:42

been super popular so i'm glad to be doing it again

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he's a staunch critic of religion an

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advocate of mindfulness without religion

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and author a neuroscientist a researcher

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and an ethicist among other things of course he's

1:53

also a podcaster these

1:54

the around amazingly sharpened fascinating thinker

1:56

and also very com

1:57

the version so warm up those a

1:59

green email and fingers now enjoy

2:02

this episode from the vault with sam

2:04

harris

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hours what you do in one sentence

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the i think in public

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i try to reason

2:14

as honestly as possible in public

2:17

and i tend to do this on controversial

2:19

issues

2:20

yeah i would agree with that well

2:22

first of all you also a neuroscientist let's

2:25

not leave that behind the studying

2:27

in part the physiology of belief

2:29

and believe change which is something that i think is entirely

2:32

different show topic for maybe another

2:34

day and fascinating

2:36

looking at people's brains and figuring out

2:38

where their beliefs are and whether or not they

2:40

can be changed in how the brain does

2:42

that or doesn't do that depending

2:44

on which book you're reading from who from

2:46

which author before we sort of dies

2:48

into some of the work that i've read from you

2:51

i'm very curious because you do get challenge

2:53

to light you are a controversial character in some

2:55

ways how do you keep an open mind

2:57

during intense debate with people i

2:59

should say with him disagree with you

3:01

it's such a visceral level that they're actually

3:04

super angry or can even keep control

3:06

of maybe their emotions during that time

3:09

i think we should acknowledge their

3:12

shoot kinds of debate or their debates

3:14

that are really

3:15

not at all mans to change

3:18

the minds of the participants of people go into

3:20

these debates public debates usually

3:22

have this character certainly english described

3:24

as a debate in advance or set up as

3:26

a debate often has his character were

3:28

the two sides or not at all

3:30

meant to be persuaded by one

3:33

another and they're simply trying to persuade an

3:35

audience and everyone knows that they're playing a

3:37

game or seen a public contest

3:39

the resolution of which only takes place

3:42

in the minds of the audience because you just see people

3:44

onstage

3:45

even if they're been swayed

3:47

whatever degree but they're pretending

3:49

that they're not been swayed and as

3:51

part of the theater

3:53

the histrionics of be advance

3:55

i chen said never do

3:58

debates like that even come in

3:59

the campaign that is billed as debates

4:02

at least on my side i

4:04

i'm open the change

4:07

in my mind except for

4:09

the fact that i'm also debating on

4:11

a topic with a bar is set so high

4:13

the duchess vanishingly unlikely

4:16

that i'm in change my mind if i'm debating

4:18

a fundamentalist christian

4:20

the likelihood that person in

4:23

the context of our debate

4:25

going to convince me to convert to

4:27

christianity and the to recognize jesus

4:29

as my savior in that moment the as within

4:31

the realm of possibility but it's so minuscule

4:34

that i i never really have to consider it

4:36

that on any peripheral points that

4:38

may come up even in the context of that kind

4:40

of truly polarized debate i

4:43

want to be wrong for a moment

4:45

longer than i need to be

4:47

my view of saving face

4:49

in those moments is that to attempt

4:51

to save face by pretending

4:54

that you are right when you are obviously

4:56

wrong there's to lose face

4:58

twice over what you want to be there's

5:00

somebody who see is the

5:02

merits of the other person's arguments or

5:05

a factual inaccuracies

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on one's own side as quickly

5:09

as possible and get off that shaky

5:12

ground so the people who

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refuse to admit they're wrong even when the

5:16

audience can see it just looked

5:18

terrible not something that i'm increasingly

5:20

sensitive to is hard paradoxically

5:23

it's hard to be truly sensitive to that oneself

5:26

as you see the evidence of that all around you read people

5:29

are just frustratingly

5:31

boorish late comically wrong

5:33

in public then refused to admit

5:35

it in real time under pressure because they imagine

5:38

they're stubbornness is somehow a

5:40

virtue

5:41

that anything but it's just it's awful

5:44

confession of intellectual dishonesty

5:46

and

5:47

you can search triangulate on yourself and

5:49

see yourself from the point of view of an

5:51

audience or your know what it's like to have been a

5:53

member of that audience on other occasions

5:55

you see that you actually don't want

5:57

to be stubborn and slow

5:59

to notice that you just

6:02

made a mistake than it was an inconsistency

6:04

in which is sad or for that you're mistaken

6:06

than any other way

6:07

you receive a lot of criticism i've seen

6:10

it in the research of you when i was doing before

6:12

the sell i've seen it in just people even

6:14

reacting to me saying m as in sam

6:16

harris on have you ever heard of that guy and it's just like

6:18

not printable is some people

6:20

were really stoked the majority if it makes

6:22

you feel any better with very excited but

6:25

a lot of people were very aggressive the

6:27

stuff i've seen on the web is while very very

6:29

aggressive a lot of it quite frankly heinous

6:32

how do you deal with that so it doesn't affect

6:34

your work your personal life

6:36

or at least you minimize those effects if you can't

6:38

make it not affect you at all i would imagine that's very

6:40

difficult

6:41

i can't say that i'm an expert this i've had

6:43

a lot of practice but i can't say that i'm specially

6:46

good at sam steward in

6:48

my attention in a way that is truly

6:50

wise here and avoids

6:53

most of the unnecessary hassles i

6:55

think what i do for the most part

6:57

is ignore it until something impinges

7:00

upon me that i just seems on ignore

7:02

bowl and and i react to it and i

7:04

think i'm getting smarter in

7:06

how i react and then the battles

7:08

i picked a five minute the most frustrating

7:11

aspects of this is not that

7:13

people criticize me

7:15

the abuse that i actually whole

7:18

the those criticisms

7:20

are in some sense wound a nerd destabilizing

7:23

or cause me to doubt myself

7:26

i mean it's great to be criticized for view

7:28

you actually hold and to see some merit

7:30

in that criticism i find an incredibly

7:32

dangerous same and that's what conversations

7:34

or for he certainly when you talking about

7:37

issues of consequence the vast

7:39

majority of the criticisms i get certainly

7:41

the most scathing ones are based

7:43

on in many cases deliberate

7:46

misrepresentations of what

7:48

i believe or what i've written or what i've said

7:50

publicly

7:51

or just rank misunderstandings said what

7:53

my views are so i not

7:55

really frustrating because there's not a comment

7:57

thread on earth at this moment deal

7:59

the

8:00

anything i've written or said which isn't

8:02

riddled with people confidently

8:06

deriding me the years

8:08

that i don't hold and this is in large

8:10

measure the results of very

8:12

calculated campaign to

8:15

lie about my views me that public people

8:17

who absolutely no their misrepresenting

8:20

me and continue to do it because

8:22

it's effect that is just

8:24

is incredibly cynical and

8:27

depressing feature of our public

8:29

conversation but people do this they're

8:31

not yours internet trolls is a people have

8:34

significant platforms on line and people

8:36

even get describes without

8:39

scare quotes has been journalists is

8:41

a problem that people notice this

8:43

and notice that this is not worth commenting

8:46

on certain polarizing issues because she's too

8:48

much of a hassle as as too much of a hassle of take

8:50

other people's feet out of your mouth again

8:52

and again and try to get yourself

8:55

understood in certain cases

8:57

it's just impossible i have had to acknowledge

8:59

that it is i hope was battle

9:02

on the one hand i will never get myself

9:04

to a position where i'm sorry

9:07

of people the openly misunderstanding

9:10

may and either not caring

9:12

or having that the they're going

9:14

to spread the misunderstanding of my views

9:17

are understanding that was frustrated

9:19

now because it's just i just had a dial

9:22

down the frustration on my side dishes there

9:24

is no remedy for parts from trying to

9:26

make sense in the next moments and moving forward

9:29

there's the aspect was what

9:31

i would call troll in in the broadest sense

9:33

is kind of a misuse of be the original meaning

9:36

of what it is to be a troll on the internet but it's

9:38

not really about honestly

9:41

even spreading your views for your basically

9:43

it's i kind of vandal you know your

9:45

your vandalizing people's reputations

9:48

that's fine

9:49

that is a lot of that then there

9:51

are people who believe they're on

9:54

the right side of some important

9:56

argument they believe they can be extremely

9:58

to the laughter

9:59

we to the right politically

10:02

usually they're not moderates have any

10:04

time because moderation years

10:06

almost by definition that position

10:08

of been open to

10:11

arguments your laughed in arguments you're right

10:13

and open to modifying your views if

10:16

if you're extremely ideological

10:18

politically and you feel you're

10:20

on the right side of some important issue

10:22

with say it's a how minorities

10:25

are treated or you know affirmative action

10:27

or black lives matter something it's

10:29

in the news now you find

10:31

people who are

10:33

so convinced of the rightness of their

10:35

view that it's just that they don't care

10:38

that they're being dishonest

10:40

in the promulgation of their views as

10:42

long as they can score points the

10:44

get on the board at a can land blows

10:47

against their ideological opponents

10:49

basically anything is fair and they

10:51

know that people's attention span is so

10:54

trim down now by just

10:56

how much we're paying attention to and in social

10:58

media as have become the ultimate example of this were

11:00

nothing lasts you know you can just major points

11:02

and move on and never have to acknowledge

11:05

that you have been shown to be in

11:07

error that the article you just

11:09

forwarded about somebody was debunked

11:12

and the author admitted his mistakes

11:15

and you for did at units me go back to your

11:17

twitter feed

11:18

clean up that mess and that mess stands

11:20

for all time now

11:22

the person who feels more scrupulous

11:24

about all that and wants

11:26

to apologize for his heirs and

11:28

has an audience at tears

11:31

that he's honest and consistent that

11:33

is keeping score is some degree

11:36

that person's really at a disadvantage and

11:38

new their people who have audiences are can cheer

11:41

rated their audiences in such a

11:43

way or assembled their audiences and such a way

11:45

based on how they operate in public

11:47

with their in an echo chamber some of these echo

11:49

chambers or bass there are many

11:51

people find his cabinet is ah didn't politics

11:54

it happening more and more in journalists were

11:56

journalism just becomes

11:58

a political act

11:59

the resin highly polarizing

12:02

and ultimately dishonest or at least

12:04

knowingly incomplete opinions about

12:06

the world and just scored

12:08

more points for a your team this

12:11

it i find it increasingly scary is that everything

12:14

is taking on the

12:16

character of politics where it's like

12:19

you're of to demolish he becomes

12:22

political first either people believe

12:24

in climate change or not based on

12:26

their politics people believe in

12:29

fascinating their children or not based

12:31

on their politics and i think that science

12:34

and reason generally can be

12:36

beholden to the

12:39

you mean and what you want to be true

12:41

in a way that he can the word

12:44

trimming your world view down

12:46

based on what makes you feel good

12:49

what your team believes same

12:51

as just you're a member of that team really just

12:53

by accident of birth he knows your religion

12:55

or your nation or your family's politics

12:57

that you inherited you're not actually

13:00

in touch with reality you're not doing

13:02

anything that would reliably would

13:04

you in touch with reality are correct mistakes

13:07

and so scary because we have

13:09

public opinion been swayed even

13:11

on fundamental points

13:13

that are nothing to do with politics you

13:16

the age of the universe where some

13:18

vast numbers of americans

13:21

in polls that his range from

13:23

in a thirty percent to forty five percent

13:25

of any on a pole the leave the universe

13:27

is six thousand years old that is not

13:30

an opinion any sane

13:32

are educated person should be able to hold

13:34

at this moment and yet they think they're

13:37

actually dealing with that said again

13:39

it's in this case another or religious reasons

13:41

but it all has his character of thinking

13:43

it's your reasoning can

13:45

and should be constrained by

13:48

where you want to arrive it's

13:50

basis like you have the conclusion you

13:52

want in hands the water to

13:54

be global warming right you don't want to believe

13:57

that there's anything you have to take account

13:59

of

13:59

on a way that time affected

14:02

the help the planet you're just gotta

14:04

pick and choose your opinions to

14:06

arrive at that conclusion

14:08

this is starkly delusional way

14:10

of operating yeah it's just more and more common

14:13

and we see this a lot with more and more junk science

14:15

things like chocolate is now good for you

14:17

have your pride in our global warming is not a

14:19

thing according to this study funded by people

14:22

who make plastic or whatever

14:24

i even saw a quote from l roka or something

14:26

like that from the today show is like what you need to do

14:28

now is just pick the study that you agree with

14:30

most sense like wow now

14:32

that's not how science supposed to work

14:35

the ever we do that and unica

14:37

helplessly and we are confronted

14:39

with this depending on the area science

14:41

you talking about a what can be a real

14:44

bewildering diversity of opinion was

14:46

i about what to eat this is the most humbling

14:49

really scandal of science

14:51

at this moment at the fact that there's any

14:54

uncertainty at all about what constitutes

14:56

a healthy diet for people this

14:59

point it's just it's crazy but there

15:01

seems to be some

15:03

significant

15:04

grounds for debate about weather's

15:07

even saturated fat is bad for

15:09

instance so it's just a a

15:11

measure not as the fact that nothing is

15:13

true whether there's no difference between

15:15

good and bad diet for that it's hard

15:18

to do science and there are

15:20

mary vested interests contaminating

15:23

the conversation in certain areas of science

15:25

there's both sides of the fraud and just confirmation

15:28

bias and publication bias where

15:30

people he a throwaway studies that

15:32

didn't work according to what they

15:34

wanted to have happened the night then

15:36

publish these studies the did work you

15:38

have was score file drawer effect where

15:41

you're you're only pulling out positive results

15:43

and hide in all the negative results and

15:45

it happens in the pharmaceutical industry the

15:47

remedy for that is depressing as all that looks

15:50

and as disparaging of science

15:52

is that can seem to be

15:54

the remedy for all of that is just more science

15:57

can better sites it's not some other mode

15:59

of thinking

15:59

that is gonna deliver us the bass

16:02

i think you should be basically

16:05

skeptical and skeptical

16:07

requires a little

16:09

calibration is is not skeptical the sense

16:11

that you're a jerk

16:12

there's a price to be

16:14

paid for change

16:17

in my world get and that price is

16:19

good evidence and good arguments that's

16:21

the coin of the realm you come to me

16:24

with good evidence and good arguments the

16:26

i'm going to be swayed the

16:28

degree that you deliver the goods and

16:31

i should want to be swayed i shouldn't want

16:33

there to be any friction

16:35

in the system amateurs naturally going to be some

16:38

friction depending on what you're talking about subject

16:40

going to try to convince me that you've built a perpetual

16:42

motion machine right well in the bar

16:45

is set very high because i know

16:47

all of the reasons why that

16:49

hasn't worked out in the past i know that tends

16:51

to select for people who are crazy

16:54

and there are very good physical

16:56

reasons to think that no

16:58

one who claims to have

17:00

come up with battle motion machine is actually

17:03

right about whether claiming so

17:06

people have limited time and attention and limited

17:09

patients so he is not like you have

17:11

to give every train a

17:13

full hearing or the same

17:15

hearing you would give you know i nobel laureate

17:17

and physics for the says he's found something

17:19

interesting at the margins of his actual

17:22

expertise but generally speaking

17:24

you should be really just

17:26

hungary

17:27

the to confront your own

17:30

mistakes and to be shown

17:32

where you are

17:33

the least about the world are in

17:35

fact not true and what's

17:38

you discovered people is a very strange

17:40

bias and the other direction which

17:43

is the have what they believe

17:45

they spend a lot of time

17:47

and lot of effort not wanting

17:49

to change their beliefs under pressure

17:52

specially in public and

17:54

they spend very little time worrying

17:57

about the possibility that they actually might

17:59

mistaken and might be

18:02

paying a price for those mistakes even

18:04

now in the sense that their beliefs

18:06

are not equipping them to get what they want out

18:08

of line

18:09

that other people could see that they're mistaken

18:11

and at their reputations are they think they're

18:14

safeguarding by persisting

18:16

to hold on to these beliefs

18:18

and not change them even in the face

18:20

of good evidence that arguments

18:22

the persistence is actually making

18:25

them lots of stupid and

18:27

stubborn it's amazing there

18:29

is mismatch between what we think

18:31

makes us look good and

18:33

what we effortlessly recognize

18:36

looks bad on other people if there

18:38

was a piece of clothing you could wear which you

18:40

saw look great on yourself

18:43

the moment you put it on another person either

18:46

recognizes sites always flattering

18:48

thing a person could possibly where there

18:50

are many piece of clothing like that we just tend

18:52

to recognizes of the have a one example

18:55

that comes to mind is named

18:57

the name dropping is it almost never

19:00

looks good obviously there are people who are famous

19:02

and around famous people the time and it's they

19:04

can't help but name's rob the not even

19:06

name dropping because they are themselves

19:08

famous in the just talking about their friends

19:10

on some level you sir and know it when you see it

19:13

as people who are name dropping you

19:15

recognize that

19:17

it doesn't look good it almost never having

19:19

the effect their hoping it will have

19:21

and yet the temptation to do it one

19:23

cell it often irresistible

19:26

and the person who's doing it

19:28

never notice is that they

19:30

are now the person who looks like a

19:32

name dropper they never noticed there's something

19:34

unseemly about what they're doing

19:36

there's so much of lives is like this where

19:38

people are functioning would a they

19:41

lack of self awareness and yet

19:43

it's an awareness that they immediately

19:45

have others

19:48

the because of bringing those two lenses injured

19:51

i'm kind of register is certainly help you

19:54

can be aware of the fact that you

19:56

are transparent others

19:59

yeah

20:00

ways that you are not transparent yourself

20:03

and despite your best efforts business going

20:05

to vacate so you know you can

20:08

be unaware of your emotions

20:11

in a moment

20:12

the conversation you to be unaware francis

20:14

that you're angry or that you're getting angry

20:17

but it can be absolutely obvious are

20:19

the people that look on your face can be angry

20:21

a tone of voice can be angry and they are in

20:23

that moment it is true to say more

20:26

aware of your mental states than you

20:28

are someone can say it's you that moment

20:30

you know why you get so angry and you will deny

20:32

as as the i'm not angry cause like a basic

20:34

lack of self awareness is

20:37

it's almost a given they are ways

20:39

to correct but as you can learn to meditate

20:41

you can go into therapy can

20:44

these terms more and more and try

20:46

to triangulate on yourself and be

20:48

better at playing this part of the video

20:51

game that is your life but still

20:53

there is just as basic fact that we are

20:55

not perfectly equipped to

20:58

know ourselves totally each moment

21:00

and yet part of ourselves ears

21:03

the leading into the world and is

21:05

be known by others you have to understand

21:08

and be mindful loves to the

21:10

degree that you can actually do less

21:12

damage to yourself and other people

21:14

into your reputation and is to sort

21:16

of humility that concrete and year that

21:18

is having very healthy the have

21:23

you're listening to the jordan harbinger show

21:25

with our guest sam harris will be right

21:27

back

21:28

this episode is sponsored in part by summa

21:30

we recently replaced are cheap old bed

21:32

frame i mean i'm like okay it's a bed frame it doesn't really matter

21:34

right it's a who cares it's the bottom site

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24:43

now back to sam harris

24:47

you're a scientist but most of your work

24:50

at least as far as i've seen seems to be

24:52

philosophy at least recently why

24:54

did you take a road through science

24:56

to get the philosophy you consider

24:59

yourself more scientist or more philosopher

25:01

and does that distinction even matter

25:03

there is a good question that it doesn't

25:06

matter to me

25:07

at all

25:08

i've learned that it matters to other

25:10

people and it shouldn't them an argument

25:13

about why it shouldn't matter

25:14

the jars and so in

25:16

a generic case call myself

25:19

a neuroscientist year an author and neuroscientists

25:21

because my phd is neuroscience

25:23

it may interest in the brain has always been

25:25

philosophical when i went into neuroscience

25:28

very much as a philosopher now

25:30

is the of thinking like a philosopher i was reading

25:32

philosophy i had thought that i

25:34

was no do a phd in philosophy and and

25:36

the last minute decided to switch to neuroscience

25:39

i did bad things i wanted to know more about the brain

25:42

and my interest in philosophy is been focus

25:44

on

25:45

the nature of the mind and questions

25:47

about what consciousness is and just all

25:49

the questions of a higher cognition and human

25:52

subjectivity that are really

25:54

easily talked about in philosophy

25:57

and for even most talked about in philosophy

25:59

but or more and more

26:01

tie downs you the facts

26:03

as we understand them in a neuroscience

26:05

less so you want to understand

26:07

the mines and the you want understand people

26:10

in general ultimately you have to understand

26:12

the brain and

26:13

we're really the beginning of that effort

26:15

and i wanted to be as conversant

26:18

as i could be with all that is i went

26:20

into neuroscience to do that and

26:22

i still do some in a proper

26:25

no scientific research but mostly

26:27

what i do is i read and i write

26:29

and speak and so i operate

26:32

much more like a philosopher academic

26:35

philosophers you know to those who like my

26:37

philosophy don't care but those who

26:39

don't would point to the fact that i don't have a

26:41

phd in philosophy and that would disqualify

26:44

me and in their eyes from claiming

26:46

to be a philosopher but yeah i think you

26:48

are what you do there are neuroscientists

26:52

who's degrees or in psychology

26:54

or linguistics or

26:56

even philosophy for our physicists

26:59

who are top flight sentences

27:02

who do not have phds and anything

27:04

i'll think aristotle had a phd in philosophy

27:06

either frightened sorry to go back far enough

27:08

for your no one had a phd in anything and

27:11

credentials don't matter at all unless

27:14

you are making mistakes and people need

27:16

to figure out why if you're functioning

27:19

appropriately in an area of discourse

27:21

you're saying smart things that are well justified

27:24

and that people adequate to that conversation

27:26

recognize to be smart and justified

27:28

and

27:29

they don't wanna hear the next sentence have your mouth

27:31

because the last one was a good one

27:33

then you show up at a conference is are you write for

27:35

sir papers and all that is working

27:38

if you can play the language game then

27:40

all that matters said you're flying at

27:42

at whatever level your planet but if

27:45

you're failing in if you're planning to tennessee

27:47

keep hitting the ball into the net or out

27:49

of the stadium then at

27:51

a certain point people are gonna as well why can't this person

27:54

get the ball in bounds ever well

27:56

it's because he'd never learned to play tennis

27:58

right so the explanation maybe while this

28:00

person is pretending to be a neuroscientist

28:02

or is pretending to be a philosopher the

28:05

reason why not make any sense as you're not actually

28:07

educated many of those fields will find

28:09

but if you are making sense

28:12

that's all that matters and i think the

28:14

other point gear really is that there is no real

28:16

boundary between certain

28:18

areas of philosophy and their

28:21

contiguous areas signs what

28:23

kinds of questions we are tending to ask and

28:25

how you would so about answering them in

28:27

the near term of there's an experiment you can run

28:30

more than you're talking science if there's no experiment

28:32

you can run necessarily or or what

28:34

you're saying would just affect

28:37

the interpretation of experiments

28:39

but not actually change the experiments the

28:41

would do well then you're talking philosophy

28:44

i think that we move rather

28:46

seamlessly and unconsciously back

28:48

and forth between these two domains

28:50

i don't think you have to have your worldview defined

28:53

by the buildings as they are

28:55

arrayed on a university campus and

28:57

as what seems to happen the people are very

29:00

concerned about whether something's philosophy or

29:02

science or which part of science

29:04

are we talking is as physics or chemistry

29:06

well it's both are one of the other

29:08

depending on your matter of emphasis

29:11

is that moment where the tools he would years to

29:13

run and expand

29:14

we're getting back to your work similar your more controversial

29:17

stuff you'd mentioned you don't translate

29:19

your work into

29:20

arabic because you don't want to have kind

29:23

of a salman rushdie of that were a translator

29:25

is murdered because of a fatwa by some

29:27

crazy jihad as did cetera would you

29:29

be open in theory and anonymous

29:31

translation posted for free online

29:34

just to get the work out there

29:36

the year and i think that may have happened

29:38

or if it hasn't happened it probably is happening

29:41

and it's not that i have a hard and fast

29:43

rule that i just will not permit any

29:45

one to translate myself into

29:47

arabic club where do or any the other

29:49

relevant languages but the times

29:51

i've been ass and declined his force

29:54

me to think about the consequences

29:56

and for me to be uncertain whether

29:59

not a person

29:59

who is offering to do this has thought

30:02

about them as fully as he or she

30:04

should ends for those you don't know

30:06

some and rushes but the satanic verses

30:09

when it was translated and published

30:11

and it wasn't just in muslim majority

30:13

countries one of his japanese

30:15

translators about not mistaken was

30:18

attacked or even killed but anyway there

30:20

was some number of casualties around

30:22

the translation and foreign publication

30:24

of his books i'm aware of taking risks

30:26

in what i publish particularly on

30:29

the topic of islam but

30:30

the lucky to have people absorb

30:32

those risks for me without not

30:35

really haven't thought through do you ever

30:37

fear for your own safety to i'm a lot of your

30:39

critics are absolutely insane and have actually

30:41

made good on threats to murder other people who do

30:44

and say similar things that you've said

30:46

and done

30:47

yeah when i checked security very seriously

30:49

and it's something i think about and plan for

30:52

and trains or and i take

30:54

it more seriously than i think

30:56

many people who are doing similar

30:58

work but i also recognize that

31:00

i don't have the same risk

31:03

as some of my friends and colleagues

31:05

and i have friends like i on hirsi ali

31:07

er much and i was like wrote this

31:09

last book on islam with islam and as usual tolerance

31:12

who are i'm taking

31:14

much more significant risks just by

31:16

chance of the underlying theology

31:19

to be a former muslim to now been apostate

31:22

as i on his is to be running a much greater

31:24

risk than just been an infidel like me

31:26

there's you disparaging all religion

31:28

the to be a muslim reformer has majid

31:31

is and to be an apostate from

31:33

the point of view of

31:34

more i doctrinaire and

31:37

maniacal people their security concerns

31:39

are much higher than mine but yeah i

31:41

don't take it lightly at all

31:44

when there are things are things do it replace

31:46

i wouldn't go to speak because of i

31:48

would perceive it your rightly or wrongly has been

31:50

a much greater risk for them is

31:52

warranted

31:54

i think that makes perfect sense it seems like you

31:56

would have put real thought into said i do

31:58

this or should i not whereas i want what

32:00

is a pure bred the work far and wide and

32:02

then they kind of turned back and keep smoking

32:05

pipe or whatever and reading the newspaper

32:07

you probably have put more thought into it

32:09

than that especially given salmond

32:11

experience as well year years

32:13

there's also just the fact that you can't always

32:15

anticipate what's going to actually

32:18

bring the heightened risk to

32:20

your door and that are two kinds of risks that

32:22

idea where there's the ideological risk be

32:25

jihad as to doesn't agree with me

32:27

or the christian fundamentalist

32:29

white supremacists who doesn't

32:31

agree with me then there's just a crazy

32:33

person who thinks i have you said

32:36

something got into his head or

32:38

destabilize his life or has

32:40

meaning that only he can see and now

32:42

has to persuade me up

32:44

that's a bird states and in

32:46

some cases even more plausible

32:48

risk you know i'm always surprised at the things

32:50

that provoke very weird communications

32:53

and say i wrote a book on that free will or

32:55

arguing that it's know lesion and

32:58

i was amazed at how

33:00

educated

33:01

some other response was to that miller

33:03

people who really felt like they cut

33:06

have lost their minds reading my book

33:08

and as was obviously not at all

33:10

the intention

33:12

at one point out even public talks were

33:14

really said got

33:15

i think i said at the beginning of a few of them

33:17

net a listen if what i'm saying

33:19

over the course the next hour seems

33:22

to be affecting you in a way that seems

33:25

psychologically unhelpful

33:27

we're leave the room you know go get a drink

33:29

to the are you can come back to the to an a or whatever but

33:31

it's like know some people who are not up to thinking

33:34

about certain things and

33:36

if you're one of them in this case in

33:38

our recognize it early and get out of

33:40

the room it's a bit i'd never imagine

33:42

having to say but my email box convince

33:45

me that i had to because i was getting totally

33:47

anguished emails from people

33:49

who had really been quite to stabilize

33:52

by my argument about free will in a way

33:54

that i really couldn't understand

33:56

from a first person side but just had to accept

33:59

has been ah

33:59

and we know worth taking into account

34:02

i'd love to talk more about lying

34:04

this book i read in title lying is

34:06

fascinating it especially the basic premise

34:09

which real me and right away as that we

34:11

often behave in ways they're guaranteed to make

34:13

us unhappy and lying

34:15

itself is so common people do it without even

34:18

thinking we don't even know what life would be

34:20

like without it and some

34:22

of the analogies are quite brilliant we wouldn't want

34:24

a car that told us we don't need gas when

34:26

we really do just because we're too lazy to stop

34:29

the why would we want that in our lives

34:31

and yet this is what most people

34:34

seem to be doing yeah

34:36

why were just controversial is on

34:38

topic of white was so most people

34:40

acknowledge that there's

34:42

the problem or at least a potential

34:44

problem with lying

34:47

in general where you'd the head of a company

34:50

and your line about your financials you

34:52

engage in a fraud and a your lance

34:54

armstrong and you're taking steroids

34:56

and you having press conferences and whine

34:58

about as and line about your teammates

35:01

and near suing them to shut them off

35:03

when a child the world that your line and

35:05

i'm so it's like all of that seems pathological

35:07

and people recognize most people

35:10

recognize that's worth avoiding is

35:12

nice and and all help it but

35:14

they nevertheless reserve the right

35:16

to lie

35:17

on all these other occasions where they think

35:20

it's actually a good thing to

35:22

do and a compassionate thing to do anything

35:24

that's actually improving their relationships

35:26

rather than undermining

35:28

they call is white lies so much of the book

35:30

is as you know his purpose toward arguing

35:32

against

35:33

the very notion of a white lie

35:36

they give you look closely at the circumstances

35:38

where you think you are doing

35:41

yourself or anyone else a favor

35:43

hi

35:44

this leaving another person about what you

35:46

actually believed to be true

35:48

you're not and you can discover that

35:50

what you're doing is quite obviously motivated

35:52

by

35:53

interpersonal fear with that person

35:56

and your assumptions ramify next

35:58

year and and allowing you are

36:00

relationships to conform to

36:02

whenever you're found out you are diminishing

36:05

the trust in a relationship the

36:07

trust the the other person could possibly have a

36:09

new even if they were console

36:11

by your white lie when you told where

36:14

my favorite examples of the but i release that book

36:16

as an e book versus a very short

36:18

hardcover book with an initially it was just a pdf

36:20

that i released and then i got a reader

36:23

feedback

36:24

the had readers

36:26

how many stories about lies that had

36:28

miss fired for them the price

36:30

they had paid for line or the lives

36:32

of others in their lives and one

36:34

story came in which i used in the subsequent

36:37

it isn't a book was of to

36:39

women who were out to lunch and

36:42

one set of the other brought up that

36:44

third friend and one said

36:46

oh yeah i'm supposed to see her to night but i just

36:48

can't do it i'm so busy or on a want to go out on i'm

36:51

gonna call her and so i can call tonight

36:53

so in the presence of her friends she gets

36:55

on her phone calls this third

36:58

person and gets her voice mail and

37:00

just lies about why she can't

37:02

have dinner that night he says something about her kids

37:04

been sector whenever in the presence

37:07

of this other friends and so now the

37:09

story was delivered to me by

37:11

this friend who just watched her randall

37:13

i was just perfect alacrity

37:16

to a friend of kind of the same level and

37:19

recognizing that moment that it's

37:21

just subtly but rather

37:23

fatally the minister heard

37:26

trust in her friend messages wondered

37:29

immediately she couldn't help but wonder how often

37:31

she had been on the receiving end of that kind

37:33

of treatment what was so insidious about

37:35

this is that it was not the kind

37:37

of wine or was it the kind of friendship that

37:40

required

37:41

that she saying so she never communicated

37:44

at the she perceived as be an ethical problem

37:46

or this at harm their relationship

37:49

and so the person who is lying never

37:51

knew that she had just sort of

37:53

lost a friend to some degree

37:56

but order to just so corrosive

37:58

and so uninspected

37:59

why most people enjoy it as

38:02

where the book focuses yeah the

38:04

book is fascinating and that it explains how line

38:06

damages trust how it never needs to be done

38:08

like deception vs lying a mean you don't

38:10

have to tell a i do and well i got

38:12

a little bit of bowel dysfunction today

38:14

it's going like this you can sort

38:17

of separate that between why we can't make your birthday

38:19

party or why we so can't hang out

38:21

fascinating that

38:23

you also get into the idea of which i think marketers

38:26

and online personalities do a lot and now

38:28

of course the layman through social media we

38:30

deliberately allow others to draw erroneous

38:33

conclusions all the time the

38:35

new even separated the act

38:37

of commission vs active omission

38:40

and how one is punished more

38:42

than the other i would love to talk about things

38:44

like candor and white hander doesn't necessarily

38:47

equal truth and measuring

38:49

truthfulness that the almost impossible

38:52

to do this without a lot of deep thought would use

38:54

of mostly done

38:55

so the commitment to telling the truth

38:58

is certainly not the commitment to being

39:00

totally uncensored and lacking

39:02

in all chat and i was not like you need

39:04

to become a tourette's patients and just

39:06

pour it out whatever is on your mind as

39:08

not stated that is actually the phenomenology

39:11

of tourette's syndrome but yeah fest a cartoon

39:13

version of

39:14

it's commitment to saying what's true

39:16

and useful a filter is

39:18

true and useful and there's certain circumstances

39:20

where you

39:21

the bigger wise to worry for

39:24

so there is no whole truth me can't say

39:26

everything you think about anything you'd

39:28

be there forever right so you're always

39:30

picking and choosing things to say

39:33

and there are circumstances where

39:35

i would admit that a slightly more

39:37

paternalistic view of the person you're talking

39:39

about is relevant said that he be talking to a

39:41

child if you're be a seven year old

39:44

ass year you know what as isis you

39:46

know you don't have to immediately start telling her

39:48

about the all the decapitations

39:50

happening in the middle east there's a reason

39:52

to edit the truth and doesn't

39:54

require any line just requires that

39:57

you see that are certain blanks

39:59

the map that are not appropriate to fill

40:02

in for seven year old and there are

40:04

grown ups who occasionally have

40:06

to be treated like children

40:08

we should recognize the dash attack what we're doing

40:11

the think someone really can't handle the

40:13

truth about their life your neighbors person's

40:15

gonna commit suicide if you tell

40:17

him that you know that his wife is cheating on him more

40:20

that you didn't like his novel

40:22

more something more than you're

40:24

not you're dealing with someone who you think rightly

40:27

or wrongly is not a fully competence

40:30

interlocutor was somebody who you are

40:32

protecting himself

40:34

those are really unique circumstances

40:36

when you're talking about adults and a far more

40:38

often were just uncomfortable

40:40

communicating what is true

40:43

because we don't think it makes us look very

40:45

good it was as an awkward situation

40:48

and so we're protecting ourselves or imagine

40:50

were protecting ourselves

40:51

we're not getting the other people in

40:54

many cases an honest look

40:56

at what are situation actually isn't

40:58

what our relationship actually isn't what they can expect

41:01

from us in the future and the kinds

41:03

of friendships we want to have with them

41:05

there's a mismatch between their expectations

41:08

and what exactly you intend to do

41:10

the next time you're in a room with them so

41:12

someone set a new emails about your wanted

41:14

to get together for lunch and you

41:16

just simply don't want to have lunch with this person

41:18

and you don't want this kind of relationship

41:21

with this person and you know them like this

41:23

person and they don't know it right i

41:25

would grant you that they're more and less

41:27

taxed for more and less polite ways

41:30

to resolve that situation but

41:32

the thing that most people do as they just

41:34

punch

41:35

hello a white lie and say what i'm really

41:38

busy this week sorry just can't do it

41:40

then you know you get an email from that first next

41:43

the certain point you'd have to confront this

41:45

or you just keep making up more elaborate

41:47

lies and hope they get the point

41:49

if you want to live your life with integrity

41:52

and it's that look at what integrity means integrity

41:54

is a closeness of fit

41:57

between

41:58

what you will say to someone stay

41:59

in what you say about them

42:02

when they leave the room

42:03

it is a real distance their one

42:05

you're not a good friend that person is in fact

42:08

your friends

42:09

the also you're a scary person for

42:11

others to be around we've all been this person

42:13

with occupied each one of these roles

42:16

are you know as like when someone

42:18

leaves the room and the people who are

42:20

left immediately start talking about

42:22

them when you see someone say

42:24

something that you know there's

42:26

no way they would say that in

42:28

the presence of the person whose last you

42:31

know that this person is advertising to use

42:33

something about themselves i think diminishes

42:35

your trust of them what are they saying

42:38

about you behind your back and yet

42:40

the person who's dishing now that the other

42:42

person is rarely aware that is

42:44

is in fact what's happened they're rarely aware

42:46

that they are advertising

42:49

there to pass it eats are you to stab

42:52

others in the back many people

42:54

who i will say terrible things about because i

42:56

think terrible things about them but i will also

42:58

say these things to their face i worked

43:00

very hard to do that i can't say that honestly

43:02

there's no difference between

43:04

how i would speak about someone to their face

43:07

and behind their back

43:08

there's much less difference

43:11

then there ever has fan

43:13

in my life and certainly does much

43:15

less than i see in the lives of others and

43:17

there's an immense power to that you

43:19

can be overheard by anyone

43:22

then

43:23

the unembarrassed had it also forces

43:25

you to confront your mind is it actually

43:27

is me it is very petty judgmental

43:29

self serving asshole

43:32

forcing yourself to be honest with

43:34

other people assholes a mirror up

43:36

to that side of your like very very quickly

43:38

if the truth about why you don't wanna go out with someone

43:40

right

43:41

is that you only want to date people who

43:43

are fifteen years younger than yourself

43:45

and look like they're you know fitness model

43:48

that's the truth you have to confront if

43:50

you don't give yourself the out about line

43:52

if you can't have recourse

43:55

to will sorry i don't feel like been in a relationship

43:57

now whatever the liars it

43:59

could be actually do have to confront about yourself

44:02

whereas the liar need in fact

44:04

never even noticed or never see it's implications

44:07

moments away acquired

44:09

the facility to represent the world

44:12

in language and express

44:14

our beliefs acquire new ones

44:17

and modify the beliefs of others and in conversation

44:19

i think we've you're very quickly learn

44:21

to live and noticed

44:24

that in certain circumstances there was a real benefit

44:26

to line

44:27

the one place where i do reserve the right to live

44:30

in any circumstance where i would

44:32

otherwise also act

44:34

in a way that was see my article in the without were

44:36

would use violence like in a self defense

44:38

situation with your situation where he the question

44:41

one in the face and called self defense would

44:43

an odyssey but also lied to that person as

44:45

a lesser the violence so

44:48

i think we've always seen

44:50

the utility are manipulating one another

44:52

with lies and then as just all that these

44:54

cultural art of this is that with acquired

44:57

since which depending what culture

44:59

you're in the have dignified certain

45:01

kinds of lies do necessary

45:04

for appropriate your social relations

45:06

say you're being polite when you are

45:09

you telling that particular kind of why

45:11

certain ones are days or so hard to get around

45:14

and i'm not especially dogmatic about

45:16

this

45:17

you brought up one when you raise the topic

45:19

you talk about is the nature of greeting

45:21

somebody would they say you know how you doing you

45:23

say on bright side are you you realize

45:26

that the question isn't what it seems

45:28

to being it's not that they really want

45:30

to know that the state of your bowels or

45:33

what he slept last night or how your marriage

45:35

is going there to same hi this is just

45:37

in your language this is how you say hi say

45:39

how's it going the in another relationship it

45:41

would be alive say you're fine if in fact you

45:43

know you're miserable hand you

45:45

know you're not talking to your wise to someone

45:47

very close to you through actually does want

45:49

to know day in day out how

45:51

your life is going

45:53

there are things that can seem like lies

45:55

on the surface was in fact aren't

45:57

wise because was really been ass

45:59

is we're asking you to perform

46:01

a kind of ritual fight for the most part

46:03

i think reaches the constants and differs

46:05

from culture to culture

46:07

i don't know there's actually gotten worse in any

46:09

way in our lifetime attic one thing as gotten better

46:11

is it's harder to successfully lie

46:14

if you're at all a public person

46:16

because nothing disappears

46:19

on the internet every one is trailing

46:22

more or less everything that ever said

46:24

or written and now for all time that

46:26

this is going to be the case you can just look to see

46:28

what the person said on that

46:30

occasion and some great examples

46:32

of people line and and been caught

46:35

or line about what others have done and and been

46:37

caught there's a video record of

46:39

the very advanced are talking about i

46:41

think that's very useful and a more sensitize

46:44

people get to the prospect of being

46:46

caught

46:47

in their lives that would make

46:49

for a better society to sit across

46:51

the board

46:55

this is the jordan harbinger show with our guest

46:57

sam harris will be right back

46:59

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49:47

show now for the rest of my conversation

49:49

with sam harris i

49:53

read the book and i've done this before in years past

49:55

i monitor how often monitor tell things like

49:58

white lies and white realize wow

49:59

if a lot more than i think i do and the reason

50:02

is to make things easier for us in the short

50:04

term

50:05

your for me and them frankly in the short term

50:07

friends family etc but once you stop

50:10

you start to see you all people might see

50:12

me as brash but in the end they

50:14

appreciate it and like you said it makes you almost

50:16

scandal proof because weakness comes and pretending

50:18

to be somebody specially for a public figure

50:21

that you are not and it makes you the bad kind

50:24

of vulnerable and the honesty

50:26

that you mentioned before can really force

50:28

any dysfunction any sort of thing that's wrong

50:31

and your intimate by to come to the surface the

50:33

example on the book if you're in an abusive relationship

50:36

if you won't lie to others and ask

50:38

how you got that bruiser why you look terrible

50:40

or things like that i mean it would cause you to come to

50:42

grips with the situation very

50:44

quickly drugs alcohol addiction

50:47

the wind is really a key component

50:49

of addiction that goes untreated

50:52

and if you have no recourse to lying

50:54

about things you can really unravel

50:56

things early enough to maybe make the

50:58

damage not so severe

51:01

yeah oh yeah i've experienced that in

51:03

many ways and i had since

51:05

you go back to have some future said about making

51:07

it easier for yourself and easier for the

51:09

other person and a moment it's worth

51:12

lingering on just stupid

51:14

conception of easier for the other person

51:17

for a moment because it's often making

51:19

it easier since the you're telling them what

51:21

they want to hear or telling them something

51:24

more pleasant than is in fact was

51:26

true but you might also

51:28

be causing them to waste

51:31

a tremendous amount of time are encouraging them

51:33

to waste a tremendous amount of time where

51:35

you could be helping them to get their life

51:37

on track in a way that other people around

51:40

them aren't so the class example for

51:42

me is when someone asks you

51:44

the give your opinion of their parker

51:46

there's screenplay or years have been i've been working

51:48

on

51:49

the let's say you read their birth and you think it's

51:51

terrible the a great it

51:53

be much more convenient free both of you

51:56

if you read they're both and you thought it was great

51:58

because any can save grade and unusual good in

52:00

a feel good and your friendship is intact

52:02

and there's no problem but if a friend of yours

52:05

hums tier were subpoenaed spend a lot of time

52:07

working on any tickets terrible

52:09

if you could you're helping them

52:11

it's very nam this momentary

52:13

discomfort of you not

52:16

the court in their rosie it's conception

52:18

of themselves a yeah i think you really need

52:20

to look more closely that because i've

52:23

been on both sides of this and i can tell you

52:25

that the people who didn't give

52:27

me honest feedback or just didn't have

52:29

good critical feedback to give are

52:32

far less helpful to me than the people

52:34

who said listen you have to tear this thing down

52:36

to the studs this is awful you're lucky

52:38

only i saw this on

52:40

people who aren't their friends are

52:43

not going to spare them their criticism

52:45

the way to think about it in these cases

52:47

of creative work what you're doing

52:49

for your friend is this thing is not yet out

52:52

in the world right it's a different circumstance

52:54

when it out in the world and is nothing i can do about

52:56

it and you're having a different conversation which

52:58

is arguably harder but you're still

53:00

in a position to give them some

53:03

help by giving them on his feedback

53:06

then you really should give that feedback and you

53:08

can always given in a way that acknowledges

53:10

that is just your opinion new you're not

53:12

a mission you're not the ultimate arbiter

53:14

of what is good in the world but did you

53:16

have a an informed opinion

53:18

and you have reason to think that other people are

53:20

going to share your view of the

53:22

things they're getting wrong will then you

53:25

should really just be candid and

53:27

is the person you're dealing with his at all

53:29

and adults and actually wants to

53:31

be spared future embarrassment

53:34

will then they're going to be grateful for your candor

53:36

and are actually going to find the friends who

53:38

just glad handed them and send them on

53:40

their way totally useless it's

53:42

always interesting to look back

53:44

on the phrase one received

53:47

for things that one now thanks

53:49

we're terrible imagine you got to friends

53:52

you're doing something you really hope is going to be great

53:54

he showed the two friends and the first friends

53:56

tells you about everything is wrong with as

53:58

and can take you a lot of the to make it right

54:01

but you gotta get in there and do it because

54:03

it's present form the saying is terrible and

54:05

you want have agreed with him right and

54:07

you do the work and you make all those improvements

54:09

but you have other friends and saw your first draft

54:12

and said i think it's great that person

54:14

is far less valuable to you in

54:16

that capacity and it would be an irony

54:18

of the person was simply lines year thinking he

54:21

was going to spare you some discomfort

54:23

there are people who ask what

54:25

you think and actually don't want to know

54:28

right these people are functioning like

54:30

children in a way the one

54:32

thing that happens once you become

54:35

more and more committed to being honest as you train

54:37

the people in your life they know

54:39

what to expect mean i don't find people

54:41

coming to me

54:42

the war

54:43

don't actually want to know what i think and

54:45

that's also very helpful and then people

54:48

will return the favor if you're someone who

54:50

was really honestly in criticizing

54:52

what somebody was doing and then you

54:54

need criticism of your own work

54:56

will than you can get it now they're people

54:58

who are locked and loaded ready to are returning

55:00

time as certain point you're desperate for

55:02

this because

55:04

the

55:04

why would you want anything else

55:07

you're not going to be spared this feedback

55:10

once

55:10

you go public

55:12

your work it goes back to what you're saying when

55:14

we lot of people we treat them like children because

55:16

they failed to prepare them for encounters

55:18

with others the public for example who will

55:20

treat them like adults the won't

55:23

be as kind to spread their feelings short

55:25

term and research shows even

55:27

in arlen intimate relationships that lies are correlated

55:30

with less satisfying relationship that

55:32

short term over long term like

55:34

you and i have both discovered first hand and

55:37

me especially more recently after having read the book

55:39

once you commit telling the truth you start to realize

55:42

how rare it is you start to realize

55:44

that wow i only know a few people

55:46

who will tell me the truth about their truth

55:48

about pretty much anything an

55:50

honest people's opinions become worth

55:53

more because they're trusted it is better

55:55

to be trusted than merely like because

55:57

it's easy enough to get people to like you it's

55:59

hard to people to trust you

56:01

one is certainly in my opinion more valuable

56:04

than the other

56:05

yeah

56:06

for years the most important

56:08

thing here and one

56:10

thing that i'm happy about with respect my own audience

56:13

in large measure the result of haven't

56:15

written that got line

56:17

gone on record as someone who

56:19

just doesn't wine and

56:21

i now have a core audience of people who

56:24

really are engage with my words who

56:26

have just the shortest use

56:29

imaginable with respect to

56:31

any perceived

56:33

inconsistency or lack

56:36

of intellectual honesty on my part

56:38

i've got the anti trump bodies these

56:40

are people the irony here is that i'm often

56:42

accused of having a cold so followers

56:45

who will just take my side many

56:47

arguments and i will just flames people

56:49

on social media

56:50

in ways that not warranted by what

56:52

in fact i have is many

56:54

core readers and listeners my podcast

56:57

who have zero tolerance

57:00

for what they perceive as a contradiction

57:02

were intellectual dishonesty on my

57:04

side i love that

57:06

there's a bit of a hassle because often

57:08

these people are perceiving a contradiction

57:11

weather isn't wine or i simply misspoke

57:13

where the some college just gets magnified

57:15

because everyone is just watching

57:17

me really keeping score and very

57:19

rigorous way by really do love it because

57:22

was being

57:23

said to me again and again under

57:25

this guy's years

57:27

the people really trust me and that's

57:29

the most important thing and if i break

57:31

that trust i'm screwed

57:34

i really am happy that i have

57:36

taken my conversation on this topic

57:38

so far in that direction that a

57:40

proper saying there will not be tolerated

57:43

what about relationships with friends

57:45

spouses and even family that are essentially

57:48

really really difficult to maintain

57:50

without lying i think a lot of people

57:52

have relationships like this even

57:55

if it says the gotta keep tell on angela she's

57:57

pretty because the proper number

57:59

self esteem gotta keep telling jordan

58:02

he looks good in those pants or whatever

58:04

what do we do about those relationships to be severed

58:06

ties or do we just start being honest

58:08

right away and deal with the consequences

58:11

i think you can move it in the direction of more

58:13

and more on a day your however incrementally

58:16

and deal with the consequences and certainly if the relationship

58:18

is importance it should be important

58:21

to improve it in whatever way you can

58:23

i acknowledge it there are circumstances

58:25

where does is just not practical basically

58:28

you may have one thanksgiving dinner a year

58:30

with these people and your job is just

58:32

not to ruin it you know you're not gonna change

58:34

anybody are not going to perform an exorcism

58:36

this point to make your aunt or uncle

58:38

was fundamentally different person but in

58:41

those cases i think you can just be tactful

58:43

you can change the topic you can

58:46

simply not comment on things that you

58:48

might have a lot to say about a so been

58:51

political in that sense for and just be

58:53

wise to avoid specific

58:55

issues it's not the same as line

58:57

and even keep a secret is not the same

58:59

as mine if someone says

59:01

you get how much money do you have your bank accounts

59:04

or ask you to divulge information

59:06

that you actually don't want to divulge

59:09

the truth is you don't want to tell them because

59:11

it was i don't want to tell you i don't give that information

59:13

out you can be perfectly honest

59:15

and with sold certain things

59:17

you can also be honest and just

59:20

not get into certain conversations

59:22

with people were you know is not going to go it's

59:25

good to play would be uncomfortable edge

59:27

of this a little bit and be

59:29

more honest than people

59:32

might expect you to be it was important

59:34

in those circumstances recently in relationships

59:36

that matter where you're actually trying to maintain

59:39

a good relationship with this person you're on the

59:41

same team this is not an adversarial

59:43

one of honesty you're trying to have

59:45

a better relationship the psychological

59:47

cause

59:48

that you are paying for

59:50

happy to conceal how you really feel

59:53

about something in this person's presents

59:55

and you don't want to pay that caused anymore because

59:58

the you want to have it

59:59

the relationship with them yet he respect

1:00:02

them too much are you love them too much are

1:00:04

you like was intolerable that this is so weird

1:00:06

that you can talk about how you feel about

1:00:08

x y and z with your mom or

1:00:11

whoever it is because you're so

1:00:13

busy sparing her feelings

1:00:15

because she is such a brittle person

1:00:17

that she has just endlessly advertised

1:00:19

year that if you say the wrong thing about

1:00:22

x y and z she's gonna go preserve

1:00:24

right so you can either try

1:00:26

to improve all that or you can

1:00:29

treat this person as an adversary in

1:00:31

some sense or nothing adversaries

1:00:33

don't exist and then what you have

1:00:35

to acknowledge that you are in large

1:00:37

measure avoiding relationship

1:00:39

that person they're the kind of person that is incapable

1:00:42

of and honest relationship and

1:00:44

you can't cut all those people out of your life

1:00:46

miserably you can cut your mom out of your life

1:00:48

where you shouldn't be eager to

1:00:50

you can decide who to spend time

1:00:52

with obviously wants spend time with people who you

1:00:54

don't have a do that

1:00:56

especially given the psychological cost

1:00:58

of lying having to then keep track of lies

1:01:00

and other people's lives of were complicit with their

1:01:02

lives you mention in the book as well

1:01:04

there's a psychological process where we

1:01:06

actually d value people that we lie

1:01:09

to order to rationalize

1:01:11

or on behavior like they matter less

1:01:14

subconsciously because we're willing

1:01:16

to lie to them therefore the reason

1:01:18

we're willing to lie to them is because well they matter

1:01:20

less they're less important other less evolved to

1:01:22

the less the we're going our own lives

1:01:24

and that can be very toxic

1:01:27

the willingness to be honest about things we might otherwise

1:01:30

conceal it is a really strong foundation

1:01:32

for great report and relationships with others

1:01:34

and people bond very strongly on insecurities

1:01:37

when shared i'm a big a superpower

1:01:39

to be strong enough to tell people the truth

1:01:41

about yourself the reactions that you

1:01:43

get from other people who find the so refreshing

1:01:46

and powerful can have a ripple effects

1:01:48

around you and your social an intimate circles

1:01:51

they were in as it's another one of these blind

1:01:53

spots are people think that being

1:01:56

vulnerable is a position

1:01:58

of weakness and

1:01:59

it's unattractive and so they conceal

1:02:02

their vulnerabilities is like the opposite of the name

1:02:04

dropping example i gave you

1:02:06

the from the inside you don't like feeling vulnerable

1:02:08

we want to hide this about yourself in one people

1:02:11

see it so the last thing in the world

1:02:13

you're going to do is tell a story where

1:02:16

you know you have to reveal what of

1:02:18

smart you are as you say is it

1:02:20

once you get to the other side of that were you see

1:02:22

how much enjoyment you get

1:02:24

from

1:02:25

the people's exposing this about themselves

1:02:27

and you seeing a whole careers

1:02:30

or builds on nothing more than a person's

1:02:32

ability to expose

1:02:35

their most vulnerable part of again

1:02:37

this can cross over into stack and

1:02:39

become just performance but you know

1:02:41

obviously the comedians and others

1:02:44

the luggage entertainers are often

1:02:47

beloved precisely because

1:02:49

they're just like performing at a perpetual

1:02:51

autopsy on their failures and

1:02:53

that's how they're succeeding and live it

1:02:55

say it is a kind of superpower to just

1:02:57

have

1:02:58

nothing that's going to embarrass you may

1:03:00

again this is where integrity is worth

1:03:03

meditating on for a moment when there is

1:03:05

no the distance between

1:03:07

who you are in private and who you are in public

1:03:10

there really is no capacity

1:03:13

or embarrassing they do not concealing

1:03:15

something about yourself you're hoping

1:03:17

others were not notice you're not trying to

1:03:19

foist any illusions

1:03:21

the people about you

1:03:23

that you simply to have a piece and

1:03:25

living our lives honestly representing

1:03:28

your views and and willing

1:03:30

to talk about anything that kind

1:03:32

of superpower is just so

1:03:34

rare again certainly has a

1:03:37

perfectly achieved it i know

1:03:39

what the bulls i was like and i know

1:03:41

when i landed at i know when i land

1:03:43

just outside it and you know just

1:03:45

as a matter of ethics and a matter of personal

1:03:48

growth vegas useful to be com less

1:03:50

and less comfortable with

1:03:53

one's own duplicity been

1:03:55

to face and same thing

1:03:57

to the person's face

1:03:59

and habits

1:03:59

very different to say when they leave the

1:04:02

room all of those dichotomies ultimately

1:04:04

i think we should find them intolerable

1:04:06

is a lot of strength that comes from

1:04:08

what about lying on a cultural level

1:04:11

like lies in public discourse for example

1:04:13

would have led to ridiculous conspiracy

1:04:15

theories and rampant distrust of authority

1:04:18

now and you mention that the little bit earlier

1:04:21

we can't even talk about syria things like climate

1:04:23

change and going back to originally or

1:04:25

we are mentioning beatrice in because we don't

1:04:27

even trust the scientists in the experts now

1:04:29

it's become some of the cultural phenomenon

1:04:32

which you just expect everybody totally

1:04:34

full of it

1:04:35

yeah well a part of as yours heavy

1:04:37

the incentives misaligned the

1:04:39

conflicts of interest and we know

1:04:41

that this in found people's

1:04:44

ability to reason honestly and

1:04:46

we need a system that corrects for

1:04:48

that and science taken in it's totality

1:04:51

there's correct for vested

1:04:53

interests and wishful thinking and and

1:04:56

even fraud

1:04:57

the consequence of public

1:04:59

lies the consequence of governments line

1:05:02

and corporations line and

1:05:04

individual scientists line and getting away

1:05:06

with it for some period of time as just

1:05:08

enormous is incredibly toxic and

1:05:11

there's distrust of authority

1:05:13

or not been able to figure out who the actual

1:05:16

authorities are on any given topic

1:05:18

it's a real problem it's just

1:05:21

day the kind of nihilism

1:05:23

that creeps into the public conversation

1:05:25

on really consequential issues that

1:05:28

is your is taken seriously just

1:05:30

a perfect impediment to getting

1:05:32

anything of value happening

1:05:34

in the world people think it's

1:05:36

basically no such thing as true work

1:05:39

at it just as matter what the truth is are

1:05:41

you can make up any truth that you find

1:05:43

console when the influence of conspiracy

1:05:45

theory thinking

1:05:47

so much

1:05:48

the public on any given topic is very

1:05:51

harmful mean paradoxically the internet

1:05:53

is full of enabled it and

1:05:55

provided an antidote to simultaneously

1:05:58

is much easier to debug why

1:06:00

given the internet but it's also much easier

1:06:02

to the wall yourself

1:06:04

off in a echo chamber

1:06:06

that's filled with almost nothing but lies

1:06:09

and just stay there and never have

1:06:11

any other way

1:06:13

of thinking impinge on you because you're basically

1:06:15

just curated your ignorance

1:06:17

and misunderstanding there you have all

1:06:19

the tools to do

1:06:22

what are the most important goals of

1:06:24

the human race right now

1:06:27

why i think well being

1:06:30

is our main concern and you

1:06:32

can define that is the last ugly as you want

1:06:34

it's just a concept can absorb

1:06:37

every distinction between

1:06:39

happiness and suffering that we

1:06:41

can find and knows that we've yet even

1:06:43

discover it's arrives in every

1:06:46

way imaginable and me so you know zika

1:06:49

virus right we've got a mosquito borne

1:06:51

virus that is causing

1:06:53

women to give birth

1:06:55

to microsoft alec kids

1:06:58

right you know if there were a god who

1:07:00

is dishes without to us he would be a

1:07:02

an invisible psychopath who we

1:07:05

would be right to fear but certainly

1:07:07

wouldn't want to love right this is the world we live

1:07:09

in where this kind of thing happens

1:07:11

how can we deal with as well prior

1:07:13

to science there was nothing to do

1:07:15

and now with science

1:07:18

there might very well be something to do

1:07:20

and in pretty short order we can have a vaccine

1:07:23

against seeker was genetically engineered

1:07:25

mosquitoes that can't pass it on

1:07:28

or we may in fact be able to engineer

1:07:30

mosquitoes out of existence

1:07:32

there's just one question of

1:07:34

a million

1:07:35

where you just see

1:07:36

clear thinking about the nature the

1:07:38

world and honest conversation

1:07:41

the really are only tool to

1:07:43

solve a crushing raise

1:07:46

tragic problem the just comes

1:07:48

out of nowhere who could imagine

1:07:50

the mosquitoes could do something

1:07:53

it will cause in a woman

1:07:55

to now have a child

1:07:58

the will die early and

1:07:59

that is going to be her experience of motherhood

1:08:02

and this child's experience of lives

1:08:04

totally defined by a process

1:08:06

that generations prior to was and

1:08:08

not only didn't understand but we're

1:08:11

in no position to possibly understand

1:08:13

most of human history has been at a time of

1:08:16

no progress at all right we're we're just

1:08:18

apes trying to the you doubt a

1:08:21

less miserable existence they

1:08:23

were really on the sauce with the either problem

1:08:25

has solution are dozens if we could

1:08:27

just cease to needlessly

1:08:30

make ourselves miserable prize fighting

1:08:33

unnecessary wars or having

1:08:35

a significant subset of humanity

1:08:37

devote their lives to just divisive

1:08:40

delusions which is get down to the business

1:08:42

of maximizing human flourishing

1:08:45

and that i think is really what we should

1:08:47

be doing all day long and there you

1:08:49

know creativity and love and wisdom

1:08:52

and good conversations is all we need

1:08:56

you're about to hear a preview of the jordan harbinger

1:08:59

show with a retired chef that somehow

1:09:01

infiltrated the elicited north korean

1:09:03

arms trade

1:09:05

there was a meeting where people can come and see

1:09:07

how north korea is the propaganda way it

1:09:10

was like three hours praising

1:09:12

kim il sung by what he did

1:09:14

for the country

1:09:16

when people ask me how is it to go to north korea

1:09:18

well as cried difficult to describe

1:09:21

because it's like your whole body

1:09:23

is on overtime

1:09:24

the you know you're being followed and

1:09:26

what do i say and what do i

1:09:29

do how do i react to things are

1:09:31

, to the us to meet up with the see age

1:09:33

and was like wow and i find

1:09:35

out how by agent thing

1:09:38

one of the most important thing he told me

1:09:40

was to be a perfect small

1:09:42

or undercover agent

1:09:43

did you have to be ninety five percent

1:09:46

yourself and then five percent

1:09:48

more

1:09:49

the last five percent is the one who observe

1:09:51

and i was really good to

1:09:54

networking with people would are people

1:09:56

actually no i was networking with

1:09:59

everything was

1:09:59

the water

1:10:01

i definitely took the pants down on a whole regime

1:10:03

exposing their

1:10:04

weapons program

1:10:06

the neverending story more

1:10:09

on how already the mall a danish chef

1:10:11

and family man wound up working undercover

1:10:13

and north korea to expose it's elicit

1:10:15

arms trade check out episode five

1:10:17

to seven of the jordan harbinger show

1:10:20

great

1:10:23

show was sand lot to chew on here i love

1:10:25

the topic of lying and i read the whole book i

1:10:27

highly recommend it is the same thing the whole book it's honored

1:10:29

fifty pages long maybe not even i

1:10:31

highly recommend you do that a lot of fans

1:10:33

work is fascinating the blog is fascinating but this

1:10:35

book really did make me think a lot

1:10:38

about the little white lies we tell our friends

1:10:40

we tell ourselves that we tell people we love

1:10:42

is important in i adjust

1:10:45

really recommend this practical exercise

1:10:47

and thinking about how your relationships

1:10:49

would change if you resolved

1:10:52

to never lie again you have to be perfect

1:10:54

with this of course i mean the at that's the idea

1:10:56

but what truths about yourself might

1:10:59

suddenly come into view what kind

1:11:01

of person would you be calm how might you

1:11:03

change the people around you it

1:11:06

really is worth finding out and is sam said there's

1:11:08

no reason to believe that this behavior of lying

1:11:10

is something that is good for humanity it's

1:11:12

not good for your relationships and it may

1:11:15

indeed be what we need to outgrow in

1:11:17

order to build a better world or

1:11:19

at least a better life for ourselves and those

1:11:21

around us again big thanks to sam

1:11:23

harris for coming on the show links to all things sam

1:11:25

will be in the show notes at jordan harbinger

1:11:28

dot com books are always at jordan harbinger

1:11:30

dot com slash books and please use our website

1:11:32

links if you buy the book from anybody you hear on

1:11:34

the show it does help support transcripts

1:11:36

or on the show notes videos or up on youtube

1:11:39

advertisers deals and discount codes

1:11:41

all ought jordan a harbinger dot

1:11:43

com slash deals please

1:11:45

consider supporting those who support this show

1:11:47

i'm at jordan harbinger on both twitter and

1:11:49

instagram you can also connect with me on linkedin i

1:11:51

love hearing from you anywhere and everywhere the

1:11:53

free course where on teaching you how to connect with people

1:11:55

and manage relationships using the same software systems

1:11:58

and tiny habits that i use every single say

1:12:00

that course is free it's over at jordan the harbinger

1:12:02

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1:12:24

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1:12:26

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1:12:28

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1:12:30

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1:12:39

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1:12:41

this

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1:13:10

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1:13:13

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