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episode of The Jordan Harbinger Show is brought

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to you by Nissan. Nissan SUVs have the

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capabilities to take your adventure to the next

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level. Learn more at nissanusa.com. Welcome

1:10

to Feedback Friday. I'm your host,

1:12

Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here

1:14

with Feedback Friday producer, the scoop

1:16

of pure concentrated matcha powering this

1:18

Baroque ceremony of life advice, Gabriel

1:20

Mizrahi. Yeah. Domo rigato, I

1:23

guess. Yeah. All of the energy, none of the

1:25

jitters. I almost went with the artisanal

1:27

whisk whipping up this matcha latte of life advice,

1:29

but it felt a little too easy somehow. Although

1:32

you are very much an artisanal whisk of a

1:34

co-host game. In that you can purchase me on

1:36

Etsy for $7, like I did after I got

1:39

back from Japan. Yeah, only $7.

1:41

You got a, yeah, you got a good deal

1:43

on that one, I would say. I did. On

1:45

The Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets

1:47

and skills of the world's most fascinating people and

1:49

turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can

1:51

use to impact your own life and those around

1:53

you. Now, our mission is to help you become

1:56

a better informed, more critical thinker. During the week,

1:58

we have long form conversations with the Veron. Righty

2:00

of amazing folks from organized crime

2:02

figures, mafia, unforced errors arms dealers,

2:04

drug traffickers, former Jihad Is astronauts,

2:06

tech luminaries, Russian chest Grandmasters This

2:08

week on the So we had

2:10

Patrick when a journalist based in

2:12

Southeast Asia. This guy. He.

2:15

Got himself into a narco state

2:17

that is inside of Burma. So

2:19

does country within a country. Run

2:22

by essentially one big Narco Cartel,

2:24

they have their own it's schools,

2:26

cell phone, power grid, everything, army,

2:28

everything inside of Burma. It is

2:30

absolutely insane. You gotta check out

2:32

that episode of You Haven't Yet.

2:35

On Fridays that we take listener

2:37

letters, offer advice, play the occasional

2:39

obnoxious soundbite, and compare game to

2:41

increasingly obscure caffeinated beverages and or

2:43

caffeinated beverage paraphernalia. Yes, correct, Yeah,

2:45

that's right. Also, part of our

2:47

sacred tradition or and your say

2:49

before we dues. I wanted to

2:51

share something that I've been thinking about a

2:53

lot with you guys to. This is probably

2:55

inspired by any do poker champion and other.

2:57

She was on the show couple times. she's

2:59

amazing! I think this seat of this idea

3:01

came from our interview on episode forty. So

3:03

I think of this week. About how many

3:05

feedback Saudi letters deal with making the right

3:07

decision. What Should I quit my job? Should

3:10

I say something to my partner? Said I

3:12

jumped to this company should I invest in

3:14

this things and I follow my-whatever it is

3:16

every letter we take deals in some ways

3:18

with this theme of making the right decision

3:20

and over the last few years I've shifted

3:22

my lens on making the right decision quite

3:24

a bit. Now. I don't

3:26

just try to make the right decision. I

3:28

focus on making the decision right or in

3:30

the right way. So in other words, I'm

3:32

a lot more interested in the process by

3:34

which I come to. these decisions Are these

3:36

answers? Rather, Than on making the

3:38

perfect choice so that I can secure the

3:41

best possible outcome. Why? That doesn't

3:43

make sense, Don't you want to? Best

3:45

possible outcome? Okay, because a the process

3:47

by which you make a decision is

3:50

largely what determines the best possible outcome.

3:52

and be as we've talked about many times

3:54

of the show they're often is not a

3:56

perfect decision so there's no way to know

3:59

what a perfect actually is, basically all

4:01

we have is the process because we might

4:03

know the right process. And by process I

4:05

mean the steps you go through when making

4:07

a decision, the principles and feelings and values

4:09

by which you make that decision, and the

4:11

way you execute on that choice, all that

4:13

stuff. So I wanted to share that with

4:15

you guys. I know people are thinking, what

4:17

if I make the right process but I get the wrong

4:19

outcome or what if I get the right outcome, a great

4:22

outcome but I made the decision wrong, doesn't that change the

4:24

process? Listen to that Annie Duke

4:26

episode 40, she goes through all of that.

4:28

It's amazing and it will change the way

4:30

you make decisions. So less right decision, more

4:32

right decision, right or in the right way.

4:35

Alright, what is the first thing out of a

4:37

mailbag? Hi Jordan and Gabe. I'm a 56 year

4:40

old woman living 2,000 miles away

4:42

from my parents and brother. My

4:44

dad who's now 82 was verbally

4:46

and emotionally abusive and very controlling

4:48

when I was growing up. He

4:51

came from a very tough family of six boys

4:53

and has never said that he loves me. He's

4:55

also an alcoholic and a very mean

4:58

drunk. My dad also treated

5:00

my mom horribly and cheated on her

5:02

pretty openly. Mom finally divorced

5:04

him when my younger brother left

5:06

the house and dad immediately married

5:08

his latest mistress, Jane. Jane

5:10

had been his employee and is only two years

5:13

older than I am. As a

5:15

result of this upbringing, I've always suffered

5:17

from extremely low self-esteem and anxiety. I

5:19

moved out of state as soon as I got out

5:21

of school and my dad and I have never been

5:24

close. Despite all this, Jane and

5:26

I were fairly friendly over the years,

5:28

sharing books, music, and pictures and we visited

5:30

once a year. I actually sympathize with

5:32

her for having to put up with

5:34

dad's behavior, especially when she lost her

5:36

twin brother to suicide, which was absolutely

5:39

devastating. I now have my own

5:42

family and I'm doing pretty well. Then

5:44

last year I got a call from my

5:46

brother and my uncle. They told me that

5:48

on my uncle's last visit, he and my

5:50

cousin had witnessed Jane repeatedly hitting my dad

5:52

in the face while holding his arms down with

5:54

her legs as he sat in a chair. He

5:56

said they had been fighting and when my uncle

5:58

and cousin went outside, she must have thought

6:01

they left. But it was dark out and they

6:03

could see through the glass door. My cousin

6:05

was very upset and insisted they

6:07

leave. So they did. Wow, that

6:10

is dark. A 58-year-old woman

6:12

hitting an 82-year-old man repeatedly in the

6:14

face. That is, it's a gross scene.

6:16

We've also seen cuts and bruises on

6:18

my dad's face over the last couple

6:20

of years. On different occasions, he told

6:22

Brad that he'd slipped on the ice

6:24

and told me that he had tripped

6:26

over a door stop. My dad

6:28

has become pretty frail and Jane is still

6:30

an active woman. So it's reasonable to believe

6:34

that she's abusing him regularly. Oh, man. Brutal.

6:36

This is very much the abused spouse covering

6:38

up the abuse, which is so sad. Right.

6:40

Also interesting that a man is doing this.

6:42

Stereotypically, we hear about women doing this. Obviously,

6:45

this happens, but I don't know if you

6:47

hear about it too much. Gabe, it reminds

6:49

me of that story we took a few

6:51

months back from the guy who got into

6:53

a huge fight with his girlfriend. This is

6:55

a girlfriend with the con artist dad who

6:57

painted a naked mural of his daughter on

6:59

the floor, I think. Wasn't that her? Yes,

7:01

that's it. The cops showed up. Yeah, they

7:03

arrest him for domestic abuse because they just

7:05

couldn't believe that a woman would hit a

7:07

man and that he would push her. And

7:09

then I think his hands slipped and hit

7:11

her. We don't really, again, we don't really

7:13

know. But we talked about how prevalent domestic

7:15

abuse is against men on that episode and

7:18

how often men struggle to speak up about

7:20

it because it can be very shameful for

7:22

reasons that probably are obvious. Or because men

7:24

don't even register certain things as abuse, especially

7:26

men like this, like her father who grew

7:28

up in tough families, right? Yeah, also that, right?

7:30

He grew up with a bunch of tough brothers

7:32

who probably punched each other in the face until

7:34

they were 18 and moved out. And he's like,

7:36

ah, it's normal to get hit in the face

7:38

sometimes when you're arguing. It's like, not really, bro.

7:40

Not from your spouse, especially. My hunch is both

7:42

things are happening here. So she goes on, my

7:45

brother called the small town police and my dad

7:47

denied that anything was wrong. I called

7:49

social services in their county and made a report

7:51

of elder abuse. But I received a letter three

7:53

months later stating that, quote, no case would be

7:55

opened on this matter. When I called to

7:58

find out why the lady told me that. she

8:00

couldn't discuss it with me. Yes, sadly very

8:02

common. They probably went over there, there were

8:04

no visible injuries, no sign of a fight,

8:06

and then they asked your dad, hey, is

8:08

there anything wrong, anything you want to tell

8:10

us? He was like, nope, nothing to see

8:12

here, my family's just causing trouble, they hate

8:14

my wife, and they're a bunch of good

8:16

for nothings or whatever. And at that point,

8:18

I mean, what can the authorities do? Right,

8:20

no evidence, no testimony. That's right, and also

8:22

these agencies generally can't comment on any investigation,

8:24

so that's hard to know what's really going

8:26

on. So the letter goes on. My brother

8:28

has also confronted them both, and basically threatened

8:30

Jane if it ever happened again. Neither

8:32

of them denied it. Jane cried, and

8:35

dad said everything was fine. I'm quite

8:37

sure he would never admit to being

8:39

hit by a woman. Well, there you

8:41

go. But he didn't deny it, but

8:43

it sounds like he is embarrassed, and

8:45

that's, yeah, it's sad. The fact that

8:48

Jane cried is interesting. Either she's ashamed

8:50

that she's basically abusing her elderly husband,

8:52

or this guy is also maybe tormenting

8:55

her himself the way he did with

8:57

his family before. I don't know, verbally,

8:59

possibly, physically, who knows? Maybe that's causing her

9:01

to lash out and attack him back. I

9:03

mean, maybe, or maybe she just cried because

9:06

she knows it's gonna get her out of

9:08

trouble because it worked in the past. Right.

9:10

You know, fair point, this guy does have a track

9:12

record of being very damaging. You might not have the

9:14

strength he once did, but it doesn't mean he can't

9:17

say a bunch of hurtful stuff, or try to attack

9:19

her or something, and we're speculating, of course. That

9:21

wouldn't forgive what Jane is doing. But there

9:23

are two of them in the relationship. None

9:26

of us really know what's going on behind

9:28

closed doors. They're apparently very good at lying

9:30

and hiding and pretending, and it's possible that

9:32

they're both hurting each other in different ways.

9:34

What a marriage, huh? Okay. Yep. So she

9:36

wraps up, I'm not even sure how to

9:38

feel about the whole situation. Part

9:40

of me wants to protect Dad from her,

9:42

but another part of me thinks that Karma

9:44

has finally found him and is punishing him

9:46

for the horrible way that he's treated us.

9:49

What, if anything, can be done now?

9:51

And how do I reconcile these conflicting

9:53

feelings? Signed, hitting a wall

9:55

on how much to get involved in the

9:58

tragedy to befall my paw. when

10:00

he wasn't much of a dad at

10:02

all. Wow, yeah, what a strange position

10:04

to find yourself in. Your abusive,

10:06

controlling, alcoholic, withholding, cheating father is now himself

10:08

being abused by the woman he cheated on

10:10

your mother with, wow. Ugh, so confusing. Yeah,

10:12

on the one hand, your protective, daughterly instincts

10:14

are going, I have to save him, he's

10:17

the victim, but on the other hand, you're

10:19

going like, hey, this guy tortured us for

10:21

years, treated us like garbage, why should I

10:23

step in now? Maybe he deserves this in

10:25

some way. And you know what, you're not

10:27

totally wrong. Maybe, maybe you're

10:29

not wrong. Yeah, and also maybe on

10:31

some level he's okay with us. Well,

10:33

okay, I mean, to some degree, he's

10:36

choosing to stay in an abusive situation. Now,

10:38

whether his faculties are all there, whether he's

10:40

really in a state to consciously choose to

10:42

stick with a woman who hits him at

10:44

age 82 or whatever, whether there's a weird

10:46

power imbalance between them, that's a little fuzzy.

10:49

Look, my dad is 80 and my mom

10:51

is 82, okay? So

10:54

they're both very cognizant of what's going

10:56

on, but this guy, he was an

10:58

alcoholic, right? So that screws up your brain.

11:00

It's possible he's mentally 92 or older.

11:04

Right, yeah, so that complicates things,

11:06

but it does sound like he had at

11:08

least two opportunities to speak up and say,

11:10

hey, I'm in trouble here. That's true. Once

11:12

when her brother confronted them and once when the police

11:15

or social services or whoever presumably showed up at the

11:17

house and talked to them. Exactly, he might be frail,

11:19

but I still think he can say the word help

11:21

or I don't wanna live here anymore. He's not like

11:24

98 years old and totally dependent

11:26

on this woman from the sound of it and

11:28

can't talk or nonverbal. And like Gabe pointed out,

11:30

we don't know whether your dad is 100% the

11:32

victim and Jane is 100% the perpetrator.

11:35

He could be, I don't know, putting her down,

11:37

controlling their finances, openly flirting with the waitress at

11:39

IHOP or wherever they go for pancakes on Sunday.

11:41

We don't freaking know. Do you think they're IHOP

11:44

people? Are you getting that vibe? I think dad

11:46

might be. Jane, I don't know, she's probably more

11:48

of a bougie bakery gal. Jane loves a good

11:50

muffin. You know, you know, lemon poppy seed, I

11:52

would think. Definitely lemon poppy seed. It's that sweet

11:54

tart combination for Jane. Anyway,

11:57

Not to besmirch your dad's reputation, but he does have a bit

11:59

of a track record. But here I feel the

12:01

need Gabriel to just sort of pause here

12:03

out to be totally clear. Normally we would

12:05

never blame the victim in a situation like

12:08

this. especially just as like all it's a

12:10

guy you must be doing something to do

12:12

to warrant the abuse. The Sats here are

12:14

unique. This is a complicated guy who was

12:17

abused other people in the past and had

12:19

all kinds of other issues. It's not like

12:21

it's test randomly some guy and it's like

12:23

are well yeah no sense that the guy

12:25

he probably deserved it were to trying to

12:28

figure out why and speculate wildly correct. the

12:30

emotional. Math and the story is tricky, and

12:32

that's part of what's so interesting about this,

12:34

but it's also possible that that really is

12:36

the true victim in his old age. Could

12:38

be Bush's Take a moment to appreciate the

12:40

profound conflict that you're in right now. I

12:43

mean, how can your empathy not kick in

12:45

for a frail old man who's being pinned

12:47

down in a chair and punched in the

12:49

face? That's horrifying. It's wrong. But it's also

12:51

hard for you to intervene given what he

12:53

did, and especially given that he doesn't really

12:55

seem interested in your help, so I don't

12:57

know if there's a right answer here. ethically

13:00

speaking, I also don't know how much

13:02

you can do practically to protect your

13:04

father in the situation. If. He's not

13:06

making it easier for you to help them as he doesn't

13:08

even want that help. But here's what you should do, no

13:10

matter what. I think you and your brother need to stay

13:12

close to your dad and Jane. However, you can. I.

13:15

Would call her face time your dad once

13:17

every other week, and second, listen for any

13:19

signs of distress, Look for any evidence of

13:21

abuse, Let him nj know that you might

13:23

be across the country, but you're involved, You

13:25

care. I would also make sure your brother

13:28

is dropping by the house regularly and keeping

13:30

an eye on your dad as well. He's

13:32

actually in the best position to protect him

13:34

because he's nearby and then you can stomach

13:36

it. I would try to talk to Jane

13:38

directly about what's going on her marriage. Y

13:40

C feels compelled to attack your father how

13:43

she's feeling about their relationship these days. what

13:45

else might be going on between i'm you

13:47

don't know about and try to encourage your

13:49

to see some help therapy support group anger

13:51

management wherever it is either with your dad

13:54

or on her own it probably on her

13:56

own probably on our own i don't see

13:58

papa doorstops over here going on couples therapy

14:00

with lady poppy seed. That's just me. But she

14:02

might. She might do it. She might. You know,

14:04

she cried if that was real at all. Maybe

14:06

this is a problem she's had her whole life.

14:08

You said you two had a good relationship for

14:10

a while, so maybe there's enough rapport between the

14:12

two of you to have this conversation. I do

14:14

think you have the highest chance of success with

14:16

her because when your brother confronted them, like Jordan

14:18

said, Jane cried, which I don't know, that kind

14:20

of paints a picture for me of somebody who's

14:22

more vulnerable, possibly remorseful. If you engage her the

14:24

right way, she might crack and open up about

14:26

why things have gotten so bad between them. So

14:28

yes, I would work the Jane angle for sure.

14:30

But look, if Jane doesn't open up and change,

14:32

or she does, she says she will, but you

14:35

continue to see cuts and bruises on your dad's

14:37

face, then I would

14:39

definitely continue making reports. Adult

14:42

protective services is probably your best bet.

14:44

You said you contacted social services. That's

14:46

kind of an umbrella resource. My

14:48

understanding is that it's usually a patchwork of

14:50

different programs, but if you haven't tried reporting

14:52

the abuse to APS yet, I

14:54

absolutely would. And I would continue to do so as

14:57

long as you think there's something going on in the house.

15:00

They tend to take these things pretty seriously, although

15:02

like all government agencies, obviously APS

15:04

is far from perfect. It might take them a little

15:06

time to respond. And if you ever

15:08

need more targeted advice, or look, if your dad

15:10

and Jane ever reach a crisis, like you think

15:12

he might be in immediate danger, your brother can't

15:15

get over to the house in the next 10,

15:17

15 minutes, then obviously call 911. I

15:20

would also call or text the National Domestic

15:22

Violence Hotline. They have a ton of great

15:24

resources about how to identify abuse, how to

15:26

come up with a safety plan for a

15:28

victim, which is really important, all of that.

15:30

We're going to link to their website in

15:32

the show notes for you. Another

15:34

option, you might want to consider hiring a

15:36

geriatric care manager for your father, also known

15:38

as an aging life care professional. Now, these

15:40

people are inexpensive, of course, but if Jane

15:43

needs some support, and as your dad gets

15:45

older and his needs evolve, this is a

15:47

good option to consider. Because aging life care

15:49

professionals, they are experts in assessing an

15:51

older person's needs, and you better believe they are

15:53

not going to put up with an 80-something year

15:56

old man with cuts and bruises on his face

15:58

on a regular basis. mandated

16:00

reporters and they know the ins and outs

16:02

of the system, they can also act as

16:05

a middleman between your dad and you and

16:07

your brother which might give you guys a

16:09

much-needed buffer. We're going to link to the

16:11

Aging Life Care Association website in the show

16:13

notes. They have a directory to find a

16:16

professional near you. One last idea, you might

16:18

want to consider guardianship or conservatorship over your

16:20

father if things get worse, which basically means

16:22

that another person could be you, your brother,

16:24

maybe a person appointed by the state, although

16:27

I might avoid that unless it's your only

16:29

option. That person obtains the authority to

16:31

make decisions for your dad. They'd oversee

16:33

his healthcare, his living situation, his finances,

16:36

basically the Britney Spears arrangement. But

16:38

as far as we know, this is only going

16:40

to work if your father can be legally proven

16:42

incompetent and it doesn't sound like he's quite there

16:44

yet. You can learn more about that

16:46

from your local health and human services department or

16:48

again adult protective services and we're going to link

16:50

to a bunch of other articles and organizations on

16:52

hotlines that we found. Check out the show notes,

16:54

go through all of them that's going to be

16:56

very helpful for you right now. So

16:58

look, this is a really tragic situation

17:00

on multiple levels, but if your dad

17:03

doesn't want help here, it might

17:05

be pretty hard for you guys to really intervene.

17:08

Dark Jordan is going, okay, your dad controlled

17:10

and abused you guys, he didn't address his

17:12

addiction, he tore the family apart, he drove

17:14

you away, screw this guy, he's on his

17:16

own. You merely adopted

17:18

the dark. I was born

17:20

in it. But the other

17:22

more decent non-bane part of me is

17:25

going, this is a traumatized man who's

17:27

now much more vulnerable and he deserves

17:29

help. I'm with you, but then there's

17:31

also the whole question of his

17:33

agency and his wants. I mean, as long

17:35

as he's somewhat lucid and he could change

17:38

the situation if he wanted to, then it's

17:40

weird to arrive at this position, but you might

17:42

need to learn to accept his choice, as painful

17:45

as that is. But what's really hard about that

17:47

isn't just that it means watching your father

17:49

stay in a potentially dangerous situation. What's hard

17:51

is that it puts the burden back on

17:53

you to process your

17:56

own sadness and anxiety and

17:58

grief about your father. and

18:00

his situation these days and probably your whole

18:02

childhood and to do that on your own

18:05

which is very hard and it's also very confusing

18:07

and will probably be an ongoing process as

18:09

long as your dad is alive. Right which is

18:11

why I hope you're finding your own support for

18:14

this in search standard feedback Friday plug for

18:16

therapy here you know what we're about to say

18:18

you've been through a lot here you deserve

18:20

a place to work through all this but you

18:22

and your brother are doing a lot right here

18:24

and your dad is remarkably lucky to still

18:26

have you guys looking out for him after how

18:29

he conducted his life really you're doing great

18:31

sending you a big hug and wishing you

18:33

all the best you know what's

18:36

better than a lemon poppy seed muffin

18:38

Gabriel which is an admittedly low bar

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although some people really love those things

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supporting those who support the show. Now,

21:06

back to Feedback Friday. Okay,

21:10

what's next? Hey guys, I'm

21:12

a fantastic listener and have the

21:14

ability to ask questions of people

21:16

to continue conversations. But when the

21:18

spotlight is on me, I feel

21:21

I have room for improvement. I would

21:23

love to be a better storyteller and feel

21:25

confident that I'm holding deserved attention and interest

21:27

from the people I speak to. You're

21:30

obviously pretty successful conversationalists. Is this

21:32

a skill you naturally possess and

21:34

have refined over the years? Or

21:37

is this something you've had to learn? Do

21:39

you have any recommendations to improve in this

21:41

department? Signed, The Uneasy

21:43

Order, Looking for some Pointers.

21:46

Oh, wow. You really hammered

21:48

the square peg through the round hole on that

21:50

one. You know, I thought I could like maybe

21:53

skate by, but the second it came out of

21:55

my mouth, I was like, nah, that doesn't work.

21:57

I got to say these out loud. Nails on

21:59

a chalice. board. This

22:02

is a good question. I mean I used

22:36

to not want to talk to pretty much anyone. I

22:38

had trouble making eye contact with people. It was weird,

22:40

man. And I remember even friends of mine being like,

22:42

why don't you ever look at anybody in the eye?

22:44

It's so weird. That was just not a comfortable phase

22:47

of my social life. This is when I was younger,

22:49

obviously. So if I can come

22:51

out of that and do what I do

22:53

now for a living, really, I'm very confident

22:55

you can become a little snappy or at

22:57

cocktail parties. So here's what I did.

22:59

First, I watched and listened to a lot

23:02

of stories, especially on this podcast. Of course,

23:04

that happened as an adult, right? It already

23:06

started the show. But some show guests are

23:08

really amazing at reeling you in. They have

23:11

certain speech patterns and ways of delivering a

23:13

story that you can just tell are practiced

23:16

and skilled. So I absorbed a lot of

23:18

that and often I'll try to channel them

23:20

when I'm telling a story of my own.

23:22

Second, I'll read lots of books. You probably know

23:24

that by listening to this podcast. I read at

23:27

least like one or two books a week. That's

23:29

how I learned the structure of stories, the details

23:31

that need to go into stories. That was more

23:33

academic but it was also important. As a funny

23:35

aside, when I was younger, I used to read

23:37

stories and I would try to memorize some of

23:40

the details so I could tell them like they

23:42

were my own stories, which obviously I don't really

23:44

recommend doing this because you're just lying when you

23:46

do that. It was a lot easier before

23:48

the internet, right? You could read something and then go back to high

23:50

school and be like, you guys are never gonna guess what happened to

23:53

my friend or me. It's like they're never

23:55

gonna read this book. They can't Google that.

23:57

But there's something in that exercise just trying

23:59

on other people. people's styles, kind of

24:01

like training wheels for your own storytelling,

24:03

I think that was extremely helpful. And

24:05

then eventually, of course, I started to

24:07

tell my own stories. I got

24:09

a lot of experiences. I got better

24:11

at sharing them with other people. Basically,

24:14

I just practiced. I also did a

24:16

bunch of actual training. I took improv

24:18

comedy classes in San Francisco. I

24:21

stopped because at a certain level, Gabriel, I'm

24:23

sure you've taken improv, right? At a certain

24:25

level, they're like, here's what you're going to

24:27

do at your show. And I'm like, guys,

24:29

I'm not trying to... No, I'm not trying

24:31

to be like an improv actor professionally. I

24:33

just want to get better at like a

24:35

few things. And you top out pretty fast

24:37

in improv. I took some acting classes. I

24:39

took other coaching classes. Those were

24:42

mixed. I even took voiceover, voice

24:44

acting classes. I

24:46

took a 20-something day public speaking intensive.

24:48

It wasn't 20 days in a row,

24:50

but it was like three days over

24:52

the weekend, four different times or whatever

24:55

that adds up to, five, six different

24:57

times. And Gabe, I know

24:59

you took that singing for actors class years ago. That

25:01

seemed pretty good. There were some weirdos in that class.

25:03

There was a while, but that class, I got to

25:05

say, really cracked me open and kind of like you.

25:09

Before that, I was like this very serious

25:11

shut down corporate dude. And that class was

25:13

like, we're going to get in touch

25:15

with the gooey, vulnerable stuff. It was amazing.

25:17

It kind of changed everything actually. Yeah. I

25:20

went to... It wasn't your graduation, but

25:23

it was like a graduation of other

25:25

people from the same class afterwards. It

25:28

was something like that. Yeah, we were both in the crowd. It

25:30

wasn't mine, right? No. But it

25:32

was cool, right? It was a cool afternoon. There's people burned into

25:34

my mind because there were some people where I'm like, that was

25:36

a joke, right? He's not really like, this isn't how that guy

25:38

is in real life. And then you're like, oh, yeah.

25:40

You're like, oh, these are people's stories. Yes. And

25:43

there were some cringy stories where I was

25:45

like, I know you think that makes you

25:47

look like a good person, but it really

25:49

makes you look like a terrible person. The

25:52

fact that that's lost on you is a little bit

25:54

scary. But you know what's fascinating about that is that

25:56

we still are talking about it, what, eight years later

25:59

or whatever? Yeah, decades. The details really do

26:01

get burned into your memory when people focus

26:03

on the right things and get vulnerable. So

26:05

I think that's very much what our friend

26:07

here is asking about. Exactly. Yeah.

26:10

And none of this is necessary. I

26:12

probably went ham because this is my career and I

26:14

can write off all this stuff. Like I'm going to

26:16

take a 21-day speaking intensive for $18,000 or whatever it

26:18

costs. And

26:21

it's like, oh yeah, I don't expect you to do that.

26:24

Sometimes doing a formal class can be super helpful.

26:26

A good teacher and finding a good teacher really

26:28

is key. It can really crack you

26:31

open and put you through the paces of

26:33

being a better performer. And it's fun. And

26:36

now I just love telling stories. I'm always writing little

26:38

anecdotes down that could be told in an interesting or

26:40

funny way. And as you know, I often

26:42

share them on Feedback Friday. Gabriel and I have a whole

26:44

Slack channel where I'm like, you're never going to guess what

26:46

just happened and we got to talk about this on Feedback

26:48

Friday. And here's the story, the scaffolding of this. Some of

26:50

which we're going to tell on our April Fool's Day episode

26:52

next week. So that's right. Because we're going to get a

26:54

little, we're going to let our hair down and tell some

26:57

personal stories. It'll be fun. So

27:00

it's not rocket science. It's just deciding to

27:02

get curious about this stuff, studying other people,

27:04

putting in the time, have a little fun

27:06

with it. You just need to do it

27:08

a bunch to get better. I love those

27:10

tips. There's nothing, and I mean nothing for

27:12

me like hearing a great story. I'm just,

27:14

I'm riveted. I love when people know how

27:16

to tell a great story, but I

27:18

also think our friend here is wrestling with something even

27:21

deeper than just, you know, how do

27:23

I keep people interested in my tales,

27:25

right? Like he said, I'm a fantastic

27:27

listener. When the spotlight is

27:29

on me, I feel I have room for

27:31

improvement. He said, I'd love to feel confident

27:34

and that he wants to feel like he's

27:36

holding deserved attention and interest from the people

27:38

he speaks to. To me, these speak to

27:40

probably some deeper challenges or maybe conflicts that

27:43

might be holding him back in his stories.

27:46

Really a big part of storytelling is

27:48

just getting comfortable with the spotlight being

27:50

on you and accepting other people's attention

27:52

and being okay with that and owning

27:54

that. I think maybe what you're looking

27:56

for here is a way to address

27:58

the part of you that maybe doesn't always

28:01

feel like you deserve people's attention. And

28:03

that is so common and it's very normal. I

28:05

have that. I always get a little uneasy like,

28:07

am I talking too much? Is this interesting enough?

28:09

Am I being a ham right now? Am I

28:11

taking up too much space? Your letter

28:14

kind of hits close to home for me and

28:16

I really get it. I identify with you. I

28:18

also think it's very meaningful that you're a good

28:20

listener. I think that's probably much more comfortable for

28:23

you, which by the way is wonderful. Listening is

28:25

so important, but it can also be a really

28:27

good way to hide in conversations and to not

28:29

take up that space and just to make

28:31

it all about the other person. So I

28:33

would explore what other people's interest in you brings

28:36

up. Is there some anxiety there?

28:38

Is there some discomfort? Maybe some

28:40

fear? All of these, again, super common and

28:42

they are what creates these conflicts around attention.

28:44

It's so funny, Jordan, this memory just popped

28:46

up as we were talking about this guy's

28:48

letter. So did your parents record you guys

28:50

when you were kids, like home video? A little

28:52

bit. Yeah, we had one of those giant cameras

28:54

that sits on your shoulder. What are you calling

28:57

it? Like camcorders? Totally. So my

28:59

parents recorded us a lot and we have

29:01

these amazing DVDs now of our childhoods and

29:03

we were watching them recently and there was

29:05

this little moment and it was so insignificant,

29:07

but to me it just like captured this

29:09

really meaningful detail about my childhood. My mom

29:11

was filming my sister and me and I

29:13

guess we were like playing, doing bits, whatever,

29:16

talking, and she started recording me and I

29:18

got really uncomfortable. And I was like, stop

29:20

recording me, mom. I was probably, I don't

29:22

know, five years old or something. I

29:25

was like, don't go away, and she moves

29:27

the camera right as she moves the camera

29:29

over to my sister. You can hear me

29:31

off camera going, wait, but wait, but I

29:34

have something. And it was just

29:36

like this wonderful little sliver of my childhood that

29:38

captured this deep conflict I've always had about being

29:40

the center of attention. Like I want to tell

29:42

you and I want you to pay attention to

29:44

me, but I'm also like, don't look at me,

29:46

go away, I'm not ready or whatever. So

29:49

yes, work on your craft. That's essential, but

29:51

also get curious about what it's like to

29:53

take up a little more space with people.

29:55

That's my take. And also to be in touch

29:57

with that healthy narcissism in your life. you, which

30:00

is in all of us and which is really

30:02

important to indulge. Those two things,

30:04

the craft and the healthy narcissism, they go

30:06

hand in hand. But if

30:08

you're not somewhat comfortable being the center of

30:10

attention for a short period of time, you

30:12

could tell the most amazing story and it

30:15

wouldn't really land. Your

30:17

audience can only fully relax and enjoy

30:19

you to the extent that you can

30:21

relax and enjoy yourself and them.

30:23

Yeah, I totally agree. I wonder if when

30:25

the camera panned over to your sister, did

30:27

she just start dancing? My sister was a

30:29

more natural performer and I was always like, I

30:31

loved being behind the scenes, which is really funny because

30:33

now I'm writing and directing and I definitely ... I

30:35

mean, doing this podcast with you has been the most

30:37

public thing I've ever done. But for

30:39

the most part, I like being behind the scenes. It's

30:42

where I feel most comfortable, but I've grown.

30:44

I've grown in that department. Look, I agree

30:46

with your sentiments here and that's part of

30:48

being a good storyteller too, learning to take

30:51

up that healthy narcissism space or whatever

30:53

you want to call it and own it. The

30:55

punch is that our friend here is afraid of being

30:57

a narcissist or he's just uneasy about

31:00

being the object of other people's attention, which is

31:02

a nice problem to have. I agree. He's

31:04

not an attention whore, but I think his life is going to

31:06

get a lot more fun if he eases into the spotlight just

31:08

a little bit more. Go get

31:11

it, man. It's just practice and have fun with it.

31:13

You can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com. Please

31:15

keep your emails concise. Use descriptive subject lines.

31:17

That makes our job a whole lot easier.

31:19

If you're finding dead squirrels in the mailbox,

31:21

your neighbors are eavesdropping on your therapy sessions

31:23

through the wall or your friend accidentally caused

31:25

a fatal car accident and was sued for

31:27

a crippling amount of money that's ruining his

31:29

life. That was such a sad story last

31:32

week, Gabriel. I keep thinking about that guy.

31:34

Whatever's got you staying up at night

31:36

lately, hit us up Friday at jordanharbinger.com.

31:39

We're sure to help and we keep

31:41

every email anonymous. Okay, what's next? Dear

31:43

Jordan and Gabe, I'm a 23-year-old

31:46

woman and one year ago, I

31:48

broke up with my ex-boyfriend. We

31:50

dated for four years and now

31:52

I'm living my absolute unrestrained single

31:54

life. Since that relationship ended,

31:57

I've gained sexual and romantic experience with

31:59

other No strings attached.

32:01

Nice. So very much in your hoe phase.

32:03

Congratulations. You know, full-on trampage. I love it.

32:05

Yeah. Look, we say this all with love,

32:08

just to be clear. Zero judgment. You're 23.

32:11

This is kind of exactly what you're supposed to be

32:13

doing. As long as you're being safe and respectful and

32:15

having fun, of course. Now I feel like an old

32:17

man saying stuff like that. Yeah, I know. It's like,

32:19

just be safe, darling, and you'll be fine. No, totally.

32:21

This is us cheering you on from afar. Good for

32:23

you. So she goes on, six

32:26

months ago, I met this guy. Let's

32:28

call him Ned. Since then, we've

32:30

gone on multiple dates. I first

32:32

met him at a badminton tournament hosted by a

32:34

friend of ours. We were randomly paired up as

32:36

a team, and you could tell that there was

32:39

an incredibly good vibe between us. Ah,

32:41

yes, Jordan. Nothing sexier than badminton. Am

32:43

I right? Truly. With that weird tiny

32:45

paddle with the long neck, it must

32:48

just be – it must be the name

32:50

of the thing you hit back and forth. It

32:52

has a weirdly pervy name. What is it?

32:54

Oh, yeah. Suttelcock. Suttelcock. That's

32:57

it. I mean, you asked

32:59

that cute guy in your badminton lead to

33:01

hand over your shuttlecock, and it's like three

33:03

days in one right there. Totally. You play

33:05

one round of badminton, you're basically engaged, I

33:08

think. There's something just so funny about flirting

33:10

over badminton. It's such an – it's like

33:12

an awkward sport in many ways. It's

33:15

a lot of flailing, isn't it? Well, there's flailing

33:17

– maybe not if you're doing it right, but

33:19

there's a lot of lunging, a lot of deep

33:21

lunging, and everyone's playing badminton looks like they're kind

33:23

of drunk in some ways. There's no way to

33:25

– I guess I shouldn't say no way, but a

33:28

few ways you can really hammer that thing,

33:30

that shuttlecock. Anyway, carry on. I slept with him

33:32

that day, and we're still – Wow. This

33:36

league is paying dividends. All right. I slept

33:38

with him that day, and we're still texting

33:41

each other and staying in contact. He

33:43

also invited me to a three-day festival for his

33:45

fraternity, which was a significant event for us because

33:47

I met a lot of his friends and colleagues.

33:50

After the event, he texted me expressing his

33:52

thoughts about us and asking what we were.

33:55

I asked him what he wanted this relationship to be,

33:57

and he said that he wanted to get to –

33:59

know me more and spend more time with me. I

34:02

agreed, saying that I wanted that

34:04

too. Okay, so you just decided

34:06

to keep casually dating. There's something funny about this

34:08

exchange. Ned's like, so what are we? And she's

34:10

like, what do you want us to be? And

34:12

he's like, I want to spend more time with

34:14

you. And she's like, okay, cool. Yeah,

34:17

I know. Cool. Is this guy secretly wishing

34:19

you were his girlfriend? Do you want him

34:21

to be your boyfriend? I'm just, I'm confused

34:23

about this. Did she just masterfully dodge the

34:25

what are we conversation like a champ because

34:27

she doesn't want to be tied down? I

34:30

personally think it's kind of a boss level,

34:32

hofay's move. She's good. She's good.

34:35

She's very good. A little too good. Yeah, she

34:37

is good. Too good for her own good. So

34:39

she goes on. In the period before

34:41

he wrote that, you can't imagine how deeply in

34:44

love I was. I didn't just

34:46

have a crush on Ned. I was insanely

34:48

obsessed with him. I checked every minute to

34:50

see if he was online and if he

34:52

would write me back. I felt

34:54

deeply depressed when he didn't and nervous when he

34:56

did. I was so emotionally attached

34:58

to him that I began checking his Instagram

35:00

and Facebook to increase my contact with him.

35:02

Huh. Interesting. Well, now I'm definitely confused. If

35:04

a guy you're deeply in love with, a

35:06

guy you say you're obsessed with certainly sounds

35:08

like that checks out. If he says, what

35:10

are we? And he's suggesting that he wants

35:12

to make things official, wouldn't you be psyched

35:14

or wouldn't you push the conversation in that

35:17

direction? What's happening here? Did I miss something

35:19

because I was signing up for a bad

35:21

mitten league online? Maybe possibly. You

35:23

should not multitask during feedback Friday, but I don't

35:25

know. Maybe she didn't want to freak him out.

35:27

So maybe she was just playing it cool. Yeah,

35:29

maybe fair enough. But I don't know. I'm

35:31

confused about how she truly feels about this

35:33

guy. I am. Well, I think she might

35:35

be as well because she goes on, in

35:37

this state, I realized that this obsession with

35:39

Ned was not good for my health. Good

35:41

for you. And I decided to change my

35:43

behavior. And I know you're both

35:45

going to laugh about this, but what really

35:47

helped was a book called The Secret of

35:49

How You Can Turn His Retreat Phase Into

35:52

Love and other YouTube videos. Well,

35:54

it did work to some extent.

35:57

Interesting. This sounds a

35:59

little bit like the female equivalent of

36:01

pickup artist stuff that I intersected with in

36:03

my early days of being a dating coach.

36:05

I haven't looked into those. That book could

36:07

be totally different than I am picturing. I

36:10

guess I'm glad it worked. But I'd be

36:12

curious to know what those resources are teaching women

36:14

to do. If it's manipulative PSYOPs to get a

36:16

guy to chase you or whatever, I obviously

36:19

have some reservations. But

36:21

hey, glad you found something that was useful. I'm

36:23

just not a fan of the old game playing

36:26

long term. It just always blows up in your

36:28

face. But anyway, carry on. The only game you

36:30

want to be playing is badminton, I think. That's

36:32

right. Apparently. So, letter goes on.

36:34

But then, through a badminton course at my

36:36

campus, naturally, I met a new guy, Andrew.

36:39

Dude, what is happening in this badminton

36:41

scene? I know. What a meat market

36:44

this is. Yeah. Does everybody know about

36:46

this? Yeah. Yeah.

36:50

Gabe, you're still single, man. You need to sign up

36:52

for badminton right now. I'll wait. I

36:54

just ordered my shuttlecock on Amazon. I'm

36:57

already on it. Yeah. I'm

36:59

going to start recommending this to

37:01

listeners asking for advice on how to meet people.

37:03

Just play the dorkiest sport ever.

37:05

You know. Not pickleball.

37:07

No. No, forget pickleball.

37:09

Badminton is where it's at. It's funny. This whole

37:12

badminton thing, Jordan, is giving me strong The Vow

37:14

vibes. You know the Nexium documentary? I do know.

37:16

Oh, how all the people in that cult played

37:18

volleyball till like four o'clock in the morning and

37:21

flirted with one another on the sidelines in this

37:23

weird way. Keith Ranieri with his tie dye shirt

37:25

and his headband. So good. He

37:27

went through his 80s athletics ensemble and his hair

37:29

dripping in his face. Yeah. This

37:32

is like the cute version of that creepy thing. I

37:34

wonder if he's playing volleyball in prison during his life

37:36

sentence. I doubt it. No. Yeah.

37:39

This is all the banter and none of the branding. So far. So

37:41

far. I know this is feedback Friday.

37:43

This could go anywhere. There could be some burns coming

37:45

up. No branding in this story, I can assure you.

37:47

So she goes on, after one game, Andrew

37:49

wrote to me, and a few days later, we had

37:52

a date at his house to bake cookies. It

37:54

was very nice and cozy, but it didn't

37:56

progress in a sexual way. Wow.

37:59

Bad mitt baking. This is quaint. Where

38:02

did this date take place? Pleasantville? I'm just

38:05

like... Yeah, the cookie date. I guess

38:07

he was going for cute as hell and maybe

38:09

he achieved that, but it's also very 1950s. He

38:12

was like, how do I not get laid on

38:15

this date under any circumstances? I don't know, man.

38:17

I think the cookie date could get you laid.

38:19

I don't know. I think that's pretty adorbs. I

38:21

don't know. Well, I'm just going by the results

38:23

here. That's true. There wasn't a vibe. Maybe he

38:25

went with the wrong cookie. Like he went with

38:27

a weird... No walnut. No walnuts

38:30

next time. Yeah, don't do the sugar cookies with

38:32

the frosting. Go for something fun. Oatmeal, chocolate chip.

38:34

All right, that's all the cookie knowledge I have.

38:36

You're killing the joke. Yeah.

38:39

Just keep on trucking. I'm

38:42

now at the same point with Andrew that

38:44

I was with Ned, but now it's Andrew

38:46

to whom I'm emotionally attached. Oh, silly did

38:48

work. And I can't discern what I'm feeling

38:51

for Ned since the contact with Andrew developed.

38:53

Is this what dating is about? How

38:55

can I manage my feelings for Ned and Andrew?

38:58

And how can I make this obsession with guys

39:00

who show interest in me go away

39:02

in the long term? Signed,

39:04

try not to go mad while pining

39:07

for two lads. Yeah, there's a lot

39:09

going on here. Okay, look, the feelings

39:11

and the behavior you're describing, they're fairly

39:13

common and to some extent normal in

39:15

the early phases of a romantic relationship.

39:18

I mean, how can you not get excited and a

39:20

little nervous when somebody texts you and how can you

39:22

not be a little bummed when they don't? Yeah, this

39:24

is basically what having a crush is. Totally, man. And

39:26

it's part of the fun and it's why, yeah, I

39:28

won't go down that road, but it's part of the

39:30

fun of a new relationship. But

39:33

there might be some other angles to

39:35

this roller coaster because I do find

39:37

the whole obsession thing interesting for many

39:39

reasons because it does sound like something

39:42

more intense and potentially more chaotic is

39:44

happening when these guys take an interest

39:46

in you. Right. There's

39:48

a difference between excitement and obsession. Right.

39:51

There's a difference between, ooh, my heart beats a little faster when

39:53

I see his name pop up on my phone. Between

39:56

that and like I can't sleep at night because

39:58

I'm coming up with names for all seven of

40:00

our future children. One

40:02

of those names is definitely Shuttelcock. Solid

40:05

pitch. I'd go with that as

40:07

a middle name, however. Yeah,

40:09

like Billy Shuttelcock O'Loughlin. The

40:11

third. So I would

40:14

take some time to... Oh, I

40:16

don't know how you're gonna manage the third, but

40:18

I would take some time to explore how these

40:20

obsessions develop, why it becomes so compelling to fixate

40:22

and check in on the guys you like. Gabriel,

40:24

to me, this is like a middle school kind

40:26

of thing, and she's 23, and it's like, are

40:29

you too old to be doing that, or did

40:31

she just not date enough because she had

40:33

that boyfriend for so long that she missed

40:35

this whole phase of going through these awkward

40:37

emotions? I hear you, but I also think

40:39

that early 20s, you're still very much

40:42

figuring this stuff out. And some

40:44

of these relationships are new, and she's in college, and

40:46

maybe she hasn't felt the strong way about people before.

40:48

So I do think she might still be in that

40:50

phase where she's feeling things for the first time and

40:52

sorting through all of it. Fair. Yeah,

40:55

it's early in the game. Also be curious to know if

40:57

you found a similar pattern with other guys you like, or

40:59

if this is just unique to Ned and Andrew.

41:01

If it's more global, then this is definitely

41:03

a pattern worth unpacking. There's probably an attachment-style

41:06

element at play here, and probably a whole

41:08

world of stuff going back to childhood. There

41:10

always is, right? Which, by the way, that's

41:12

why I commend you for recognizing that something

41:14

just wasn't quite healthy about the way you

41:17

were interacting with Ned. You stopped checking his

41:19

Instagram 17 times a day. You stopped reading

41:21

baby name websites or whatever it was. That

41:23

was smart. Sometimes we do

41:25

need to change our behaviors in order to change

41:27

our feelings. But again, I would invite you to

41:30

consider why this behavior developed

41:32

in the first place. What

41:34

I would be curious to know is, what is it

41:36

about keeping tabs on a guy you like that feels

41:38

so compelling? What are you hoping

41:41

to achieve there? And what effect is this

41:43

behavior having on your feelings about yourself, about

41:45

the relationship? Do you ever feel like your

41:47

interest in a guy becomes more important than

41:49

your own needs? Do these crushes ever start

41:51

to dominate your life and take focus away

41:54

from your own goals? If this

41:56

obsession you described feels painful in some way, that's

41:58

what I would say. That's the signal that it's

42:00

functioning in a certain way that it just might

42:02

not be healthy. And that's something that needs to

42:04

be addressed. And I wish I could tell you what

42:06

that function is, but that's what you have to figure out.

42:09

This would also be a great topic, by the way, to explore

42:11

in therapy, but I'm not gonna bang on about that. Now,

42:13

about Andrew, your new Bad Mitten Smoke

42:15

Show, it sounds like this is

42:18

a sweet relationship that's developing there. And I'm still

42:20

thinking about your little cookie date. I mean, it's

42:22

wholesome. Yeah. I'm just glad

42:24

they weren't baking lemon poppies eat muffins. Oh,

42:26

no. That would have been a major red

42:28

flag. That's right. If your date wants to

42:31

bake lemon poppies eat muffins at home, just

42:33

run. Nothing good can come from this situation.

42:35

You want chocolate, red velvet, something with

42:37

frosting. Yeah. Actually, it's funny. I

42:39

kind of like lemon poppies eat muffins. I don't know why

42:41

we're hating on them so hard in this episode. They're

42:44

actually kind of good. They're delicious. It's definitely

42:46

a muffin you appreciate as you get older.

42:49

That's an older man's muffin. Well,

42:51

until you hit brand muffins, I'm not there

42:54

yet. That's the next. That is the next

42:56

phase of the muffin development framework. Yeah, yeah,

42:58

definitely. The MDF. Yes. Once

43:01

you hit brand territory, you're living on borrowed

43:03

time at that point. But look, since

43:05

you're finding the same experience you had

43:07

with Ned happening with Andrew, I definitely

43:09

think it's time to dig into this

43:11

pattern. Basically, if these feelings

43:13

cause you distress, as opposed to just

43:16

that vaguely nauseating but mostly pleasant butterflies

43:18

in your stomach kind of feeling, then

43:20

there's probably some unresolved stuff at play here.

43:22

In addition to just the low key stress

43:25

of liking somebody, right, which is

43:27

normal. Now, not being able to discern

43:29

what you feel for Ned since you started

43:31

seeing Andrew, that could mean a couple things.

43:33

Either you like Andrew more now and your

43:35

feelings for Ned have cooled, which is perfectly

43:37

fine, or you're actually more

43:39

inclined to focus on one person

43:41

at a time, not multiple people,

43:43

like ye olde, ho-fe is notwithstanding.

43:47

Or this relationship with Andrew is becoming

43:49

obsessive again and part of that obsession

43:51

is fixating on one guy at

43:54

the expense of other guys, even if he's not

43:56

her guy. That's a good point. When she gets

43:58

really into a new guy, she might get... some like tunnel

44:00

vision kind of deal and suddenly the only person

44:02

who matters is the latest one to stir up

44:04

those feelings. So is

44:07

this what dating is all about? The

44:09

short answer I think is yes. You're meeting

44:11

different people, you're spending time with them, you're

44:13

exploring your feelings, you're letting those feelings evolve.

44:15

Either they grow deeper or maybe they cool

44:17

or maybe they become something else like friendship.

44:20

And through all of that, you're learning about

44:22

yourself which is wonderful. So yeah, you're playing.

44:24

I think it's great. But that

44:26

doesn't mean that dating should be distressing

44:28

or chaotic or confusing most of the

44:31

time. That's not what dating is about

44:33

or rather it's not what it should be. So

44:36

you're not wrong or bad for having these

44:38

feelings or engaging in these somewhat obsessive behaviors.

44:40

I mean, look, to quote the great poet

44:43

Rihanna, you got love on the brain, my

44:45

friend. Ah, yes. The great

44:47

prophet, Our Lady RiRi. In her name,

44:49

we slay. I would

44:51

approach these tendencies with as much curiosity

44:53

as you can and just try to

44:55

find out why you have this response

44:57

to the men you're interested in. As

45:00

for your other question, how can you manage your

45:02

feelings for Ned and Andrew? I guess my question

45:04

there would be, what does manage mean to you?

45:06

Does it mean stuffing those feelings down? Does

45:09

it mean figuring out what to do with

45:11

those feelings, which I think is the better

45:13

question? Does it mean making space to have

45:16

feelings for both of these guys? If what

45:18

you're asking is how do I make these

45:20

feelings less painful, then again, to Jordan's point,

45:22

that's about unpacking how you relate to romantic

45:24

partners, what these relationships are bringing up for

45:27

you. It's not about suppressing them or pretending

45:29

they don't exist because then they're just going

45:31

to go underground and probably get stronger and then

45:33

they're going to dictate your life even more. So

45:36

as for making this obsession with guys who show

45:39

interest in you go away in the long term,

45:41

again, you're not going to get very far by

45:43

trying to make the obsession go away. Instead, I

45:45

would follow Jordan's advice again. If you can get

45:47

to the roots of this pattern, you'll probably find

45:50

that the obsession will calm down on its own.

45:52

Yeah, it's interesting, Gabe. A lot of her questions

45:54

seem to be about tucking away her feelings or

45:56

wiggling out of them, right? She

45:58

wants to manage her feelings. this obsession go

46:00

away. I think that's actually the heart

46:03

of her letter. It's not her specific

46:05

feelings for Ned or Andrew or the

46:07

next cute guy she meets at Badminton,

46:09

but how she deals with her feelings

46:11

in general. I think that's right. And

46:13

actually, that's part of the value of

46:15

the whole face, right? It's not just

46:18

about sewing your wild oats. It's about

46:20

discovering these parts of herself through these

46:22

relationships, digging into them and growing. So

46:25

there you have it. Don't play Badminton with your

46:27

emotions. No more smashing your feelings across

46:29

the net like a shuttlecock you're trying to get rid of.

46:32

Exactly. I think it's time to

46:34

bounce those feelings on your racket a few times

46:36

and see how they move and learn. I don't

46:38

know. That's the end of this weird Batman metaphor.

46:40

That's all I got. I don't think that would

46:42

work. Yeah, not with a shuttlecock. Yeah, same here.

46:45

Not my sport. Good luck. You

46:47

know who else is in their ho phase? Handing

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It is that important that you support those

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who support the show. Now, back to Feedback

48:53

Friday. Okay,

48:55

what's next? Here, Jordan and Gabe. My

48:58

brother and I have always had a

49:01

complicated relationship. Growing up, we were

49:03

skilled in making everything look friendly and peaceful

49:05

from the outside, but behind the

49:07

scenes, we barely tolerated each other. He's

49:10

two years older than me, and my

49:12

life began with an unending cycle of

49:14

sibling rivalry. My brother relied

49:16

heavily on his physical size to

49:19

control situations, force cooperation, and

49:21

dominate conversations. He was physically

49:23

abusive, and even inappropriately

49:25

sexually expressive when no one

49:27

was looking. In our family,

49:30

the public image was a far higher priority

49:32

than interpersonal relationships. Wow, okay, so that's a

49:34

difficult sibling to have. Sorry to hear all

49:36

this. Yeah, it sounds like a tough home

49:39

as well. The whole keeping up appearances thing

49:41

in families really gets to me. It's awful,

49:43

right? It's always a cover for something. As

49:45

long as everybody sees us in a certain

49:48

way, that's all that matters. Meanwhile, one brother's

49:50

kicking the other in the ribs and taking

49:52

his junk out while they're playing Nintendo what

49:56

is this dude's problem? Why is nobody looking out for

49:58

me? If his brother was... doing this when they were young.

50:01

I wonder what was going on with him. I mean,

50:03

he must have been working something out, God knows what,

50:05

so I guess I feel for him on that level.

50:07

But it sounds like your parents

50:10

were not really looking out for you, or didn't

50:12

foster a very safe relationship between you and your

50:14

brother, and that really sucks. It's incredibly sad. It

50:16

must have been super hard for this guy. Anyway,

50:18

carry on. As an adult, I found that the

50:21

best way I could remain healthy was to live

50:23

far away. I relocated to Alaska

50:25

and began building a life that I loved. Dude,

50:27

Jordan, can you imagine how bad it must have

50:29

been to move to Alaska? Yeah, I mean, not

50:31

that there's anything wrong with Alaska, but that's the

50:33

furthest away you can go. No, it's just like

50:36

the farthest away you can possibly go. You just

50:38

wanted to put as much distance between him and

50:40

his family. Like, they can't just pop over. You

50:42

gotta cross Canada, you got a book ticket, like,

50:44

yeah, you're not driving over to bug you. Meanwhile,

50:46

my brother, throughout his 30s and 40s, spent

50:50

most of his time living with my parents. Finally,

50:52

when my dad retired, my parents decided to

50:55

move from California to Missouri. The move

50:57

was also my dad's last-ditch effort to gently

50:59

kick my brother out of the nest. Okay,

51:01

well, wow, the creepy kid with unaddressed behavioral

51:04

problems mooched off mom and dad all the

51:06

way through his 40s. What

51:08

a surprise. Also fascinating that their last-ditch

51:10

effort to gently kick him out was

51:12

to move across the country. Yeah, that's

51:14

a good point. Seriously, it wasn't like,

51:16

hey, son, look, you're 38, it's

51:19

time to build your own life. It was, so,

51:21

we're moving to Missouri, you know, new leaf

51:23

and all that, and so, you just might

51:25

wanna start making plans. No rush or anything.

51:27

No rush. We're just letting you know that's what

51:29

we, mom and I, are doing as they

51:31

wander out of the room and just pray

51:33

they never have to have this conversation again. Like,

51:36

he's gonna get the message this time, for

51:38

sure. So, he goes on, my brother moved

51:40

to Tennessee and took up

51:42

residence in the basement of a cousin's house.

51:44

This guy, sorry, I'm not being very nice,

51:46

but I have just so little sympathy for

51:48

people like this. So, this dude just goes

51:50

from one cushy couch to another. He doesn't

51:52

want to build his own life, or maybe he just

51:55

can't, he can't get it together. Then, eight

51:57

weeks after moving to Missouri, my dad

51:59

was... clearing his land so that he could

52:01

build my mother a house when

52:03

his tractor rolled over and

52:05

killed him. Oh my god, okay,

52:08

that was unexpected. I am so sorry,

52:10

that's incredibly tragic and that is a

52:12

sad way to go. So sad while

52:14

he was doing this sweet thing for

52:16

his wife. Yeah, no joke. That

52:19

must have been very painful for all you guys

52:21

and I am so sorry that that happened. When

52:23

I flew down for the funeral, my brother and

52:25

I met to discuss things. He

52:27

said, someone's going to have to come and take

52:30

care of mom. I'm working so hard over here

52:32

not to blow a gasket. I'm tensed up in

52:34

part because I didn't know tractors could roll over

52:36

that easy and that freaked me out a little

52:38

bit. Not that I ever planned on driving a

52:40

tractor but also, someone's going to have to come

52:42

take care of it. I can just imagine this

52:44

guy saying it this certain way and it's making

52:46

my skin crawl. Your shoulders are up around your

52:49

ears right now. I know. He's a

52:51

work this guy. He is. Someone's going to have to

52:53

come take care of mom. No, not the guy who

52:55

has no prospects for life or ambition who lived with

52:57

said mom until he was like 48 years old. No,

53:00

it's got to be the guy who moved away from

53:02

his abusive slash neglectful family, built a life he truly

53:04

loved. Yeah, someone's going to have to come take care

53:07

of mom. I don't like this

53:09

at all. Not one bit. Not one

53:11

bit. When I acknowledge that,

53:13

he said, well, I'm finally leaving

53:15

my dream in Nashville. So the

53:18

implication being, you'll have to do

53:20

it. What dream, dude? The dream

53:22

of living in your cousin's basement

53:24

rent free while you're hurtling aimlessly

53:26

towards 50, being the oldest couch

53:28

surfer on record in any basement

53:30

in America. This dude is

53:32

so useless. So

53:34

useless. Brutal take, but you're on one today. I

53:37

get it. He's getting on your nerves. So

53:39

he goes on, you know, because running

53:42

a small farm took more effort than

53:44

working for a temp agency, living in

53:46

our cousin's basement, watching porn nonstop and

53:48

eating his way to morbid obesity. I

53:51

didn't even know this was that bad. So he does

53:53

have a job. OK, but it's not a steady job.

53:55

I'm guessing he makes just enough money to put gas

53:57

in the car and buy groceries. A lot of unhealthy

53:59

groceries. from the sound of it. So this is

54:01

interesting, right? His brother sounds like

54:04

an addict, two addictions, pornography, food.

54:06

So he's probably in a lot of

54:08

pain and he's numbing. Yeah, okay, fine.

54:11

You're making me take this from a

54:13

more sympathetic route. Like I said,

54:15

if you're hurting your sibling at three, four years

54:17

old in those weird ways, like with your sexual,

54:19

something happened to you or something didn't happen to

54:21

you. So in a way, I

54:23

feel for the guy, but come on, man, you're

54:26

an adult now. You're a grown ass middle aged

54:28

man with theoretical responsibilities that you are not fulfilling.

54:30

If he is trying to rub one out six

54:32

times a day and go through eight boxes of

54:34

Oreos, he's got time to check in on his

54:37

mom down the road and make sure she's okay.

54:39

That's what I'm trying to say. Yeah, of course.

54:41

He's not running a business or married with kids

54:43

in another state. I mean, he's way more available

54:45

than our friend here and he frankly owes his

54:48

mother more. He just doesn't want to. That's all

54:50

this is. He doesn't want the responsibility. It's so

54:52

disgusting. So I

54:54

quit my two jobs in Alaska,

54:56

sold practically everything I owned and

54:59

moved to rural Missouri. This

55:02

is hard, Jordan. I'm having a strong reaction to

55:04

this part of the letter, but I will hold

55:06

off. You are bummed that he caved and moved

55:08

out there. I mean, me too. I'm sure he

55:11

had his reasons. Maybe it seemed like the only

55:13

option at the time, but man, I would have

55:15

loved to be able to talk to him back

55:17

then and just, I don't know, help him think

55:19

through that decision because this life he was building

55:21

in Alaska sounds really healthy and very special. I'm

55:23

with you completely. I think mom

55:25

would have ended up moving to Alaska once

55:27

we got done with him, but this is

55:29

what happens in so many families where one

55:31

sibling is just a frickin' deadbeat and good

55:33

for nothing, nay or do well. And yes,

55:35

I've been waiting to use that word on the show for

55:38

a decade. Did you say nay or do

55:40

well? Yes. I've never heard it

55:42

pronounced that way. I always heard nay or do well,

55:44

but what's a nay or do? You were making fun

55:46

of me for the orator thing earlier? You were going

55:48

to hit me with a nay or do well. I

55:51

mean, it does have like an apostrophe in this weird

55:53

place. Anyway. John Mayer do well.

55:56

This guy's not capable. He's selfish. Right.

56:00

compassionate, he's responsible, and

56:02

I think he's too responsible. And

56:05

of course, the responsible one steps in because it's

56:07

like, well, somebody's gotta do it and it's not

56:09

gonna be the guy who can't peel himself off

56:11

the sticky couch until 1130 in the morning. You're

56:13

welcome. So gross, but accurate. You're

56:15

welcome. And I can't say blame him for stepping

56:17

in, but there might've been other

56:20

scenarios to explore, but that's neither here nor there,

56:22

I guess. So he goes on, this

56:24

was tough for a lot of

56:26

reasons. First, I hated it here.

56:29

Second, I'd left the friendships I'd built over several

56:31

years and moved to a place where it was

56:33

tough to find anyone I had anything in common

56:35

with. Third, the economic opportunities

56:37

in Missouri are so far below any

56:40

place I've ever lived that I had

56:42

to set aside any semblance of the

56:44

life I found fulfilling. I'm

56:46

not a materialist by any stretch, but finding

56:48

myself living in a single wide trailer in

56:50

the woods is a big step down. Ah,

56:53

see, this is why I'm angry. This

56:56

is tough. Yeah, I'm right there with you. He

56:58

just sucks he had to sacrifice this much. But

57:00

to your point, he did choose on some level

57:02

to do that. We should come back to that.

57:04

But then, after a time, I met

57:07

a wonderful woman. We got married and now

57:09

have a family. Okay, so this is amazing.

57:11

So it's interesting, it does complicate the picture

57:13

a little bit in the cosmic sense. This

57:15

terrible thing happened, he gave up a lot,

57:17

but then it did put him on a

57:19

path for this incredible thing to happen, which

57:21

is wonderful. Yeah, and that's life, eh, so

57:23

interesting. Doesn't mean it was the best

57:25

move, though. I'm just happy that something good came

57:27

out of it instead of just an ending punishment.

57:30

About a year after our marriage began, my mother

57:32

suffered a stroke. My wife, by

57:34

then pregnant with our daughter, suggested we move

57:36

my mother in with us. We

57:38

did, and my mother was well taken care of

57:40

and living in a nice, comfortable home. What

57:43

little money she had trickling in went

57:45

untouched into her savings account. My

57:47

wife and I took her to all her

57:49

medical appointments and involved her in things like

57:52

evening walks, gentle exercise, and the occasional outings.

57:54

Amazing. Man, you're killing the sun game and

57:56

your wife is killing the daughter-in-law game. That

57:58

is one lucky mom. I can say, that's

58:00

great, good for you. But my brother

58:02

would frequently call and berate my wife and

58:04

me, telling us all the ways he would

58:07

handle things differently. Not interested,

58:09

not interested in hearing his opinion, but

58:11

of course, yes, for all the elders,

58:13

this guy is such a good-for-nothing clown.

58:15

He would call nearly every evening, at

58:17

which point my mother would hobble into

58:19

her private bedroom to have their conversations.

58:22

Ooh, that's not good. You know some

58:24

bullshits afoot when mom is hobbling into

58:26

her room to have these secret conversations

58:28

with the other siblings. Yeah, she already knows

58:30

she can't have the conversation in front of them and

58:32

is like, oh, it's time to go talk shit about

58:34

my son who's taking care of me and his wife.

58:37

This is making me sweat a little and I do

58:39

not like where this is going. My mom's late evening

58:41

private chats with my brother continued for a couple of

58:43

months. Then one day she

58:45

announced that she was moving to Tennessee

58:47

to live with him. He got to

58:49

her. My brother, who was always asking

58:51

my mom for money, my

58:53

brother, who had been evicted by this

58:55

time from multiple places, including my cousin's

58:58

basement, my brother, who was too

59:00

busy, quote-unquote, living his dream to even consider

59:02

taking care of my mom when my dad

59:04

died. But I digress.

59:08

No, sir, you do not digress. This is very

59:10

much the point of your story. Right. This

59:13

is literally what the story is about. Your brother

59:15

and how he's locked into some kind of weird,

59:17

creepy, petty, vaguely nefarious battle

59:19

with you over your mother? Exactly.

59:22

Norman Bates School of Sibling Rivalry.

59:26

My mother left with my brother

59:28

three days before her first granddaughter's

59:30

first Christmas. Yuck. That must have

59:32

hurt. Yeah. Especially after taking

59:34

such good care of her and she just bounces

59:36

before Christmas. Like you're not worth the touch.

59:38

I just kind of have beef with mom

59:40

now. She picked the wrong sibling and she

59:42

knows the guy is a turd. She knows,

59:44

but that's a whole other rant. She might

59:47

not. As his mother, she might have

59:49

really big blind spots, but there's probably so much

59:51

going on with her. Anyway, letter goes

59:54

on. Over the next several years, I'd call weekly

59:56

and catch up with my mom. My conversations with

59:58

my brother were in frequent and

1:00:01

uncomfortable. On several occasions, he'd

1:00:03

let me know that they were going without food,

1:00:05

losing their utilities or some such

1:00:08

crisis. On multiple occasions, my family

1:00:10

and I drove the eight-hour trip to

1:00:12

buy groceries for them and keep my

1:00:14

mom healthy. I hate

1:00:16

that. Now I'm wondering if he

1:00:19

wanted your mom out there as a bargaining

1:00:21

chip, like, hey, I've got my bank in

1:00:23

the house with me so I no longer

1:00:25

have to move from her, I can just

1:00:27

take it or whatever and attention out of

1:00:29

you. It's so gross and depressing and dysfunctional.

1:00:32

During this period, my brother also had a

1:00:34

stroke, after which he became

1:00:36

more openly belligerent and insulting, often

1:00:39

excusing his behavior by simply saying, I have

1:00:41

a brain injury. Oh, you want another brain

1:00:44

injury, pal? I'm deep breathing over

1:00:46

here, Gabe. I'm finding myself having very

1:00:48

dark, threepy thoughts about this man. This

1:00:50

guy is such a horrible person. Finally,

1:00:52

my brother contacted me and said that

1:00:54

they were being evicted from their apartment

1:00:56

and wanted me to look for a

1:00:59

place for them here in Missouri. Wait,

1:01:01

after all that, back to Missouri? Back

1:01:03

to Missouri? And of course it falls

1:01:05

on our friend here again. Again. Unbelievable.

1:01:07

This guy who's on the internet doing

1:01:09

something all day can't use it to find a place to

1:01:11

live. Whatever. Yeah, you can't

1:01:13

rub one out to apartments.com, can you?

1:01:16

Lord knows I've tried. We

1:01:21

tried, sending him countless links to apartments to look

1:01:23

into, offering to go tour the places, etc., but

1:01:25

none of them were to his liking. No, no,

1:01:27

of course not. I mean, this dude's got to

1:01:29

live in luxury. Now, of course. And by the

1:01:32

way, if you're going to rub one out, Zillow's

1:01:34

the way you do. They

1:01:36

do have such nice pictures,

1:01:38

don't they? The interface. The

1:01:40

photos are great. The

1:01:43

sliding. Only the best for

1:01:45

his Majesty, Prince Basement Cheeto fingers, right?

1:01:47

This guy's like, oh no, this isn't

1:01:49

up to my standard. Mate, you can't

1:01:52

even climb a set of stairs. Calm

1:01:54

down. Sit down. Seriously, Lord freaking Pornhub

1:01:56

premium bearer of brain injuries, king

1:01:59

of the belligerent. in the morbidly obese.

1:02:01

First of his name. First of his

1:02:03

name. So

1:02:06

this is the lamest Game of Thrones spin-off

1:02:08

I've ever heard of. Terrible. But just like

1:02:11

Game of Thrones, they are battling for mommy's

1:02:13

affection. So he goes on. Finally, I went

1:02:15

down to help them move out of the

1:02:17

apartment. The plan was to bring

1:02:19

them back to Missouri to our home

1:02:21

temporarily. While there, my brother became

1:02:23

violent, screaming at me that I wasn't

1:02:25

doing things to his standards and repeatedly striking

1:02:27

me with his cane in front of

1:02:29

my wife and children. In

1:02:31

self-defense, I pushed him, hoping that he would

1:02:34

land in a sitting position on the couch

1:02:36

behind him. But he missed and

1:02:38

landed on the floor. I couldn't lift

1:02:40

his 320-pound body. So

1:02:43

the fire department and police department

1:02:45

responded. Oh, I'm

1:02:47

glad they got out of control. Yeah,

1:02:50

truly. This is wild, Jordan. I just

1:02:52

had an image of these two grown

1:02:54

men suddenly becoming those little boys again

1:02:57

in this fight, in this altercation. Yeah.

1:03:00

There were years in

1:03:02

that shove. Like, oh, I thought he would fall on

1:03:04

the couch behind me. But all the rage just channeled

1:03:06

up through the earth. And he probably threw

1:03:08

that 320-pound man further than he thought. The

1:03:12

fact that he didn't slap this guy straight

1:03:14

across the face decades ago, though, is a

1:03:16

miracle. I'm glad he didn't,

1:03:18

I guess. But I certainly understand the impulse.

1:03:20

The police officer helped me talk my mother

1:03:22

into coming home with us. But

1:03:25

we left my brother there. I couldn't

1:03:27

justify allowing his outrageous behavior, his

1:03:29

track record, and his porn addiction

1:03:32

into my home with my wife

1:03:34

and children. Yo, good call.

1:03:37

Yeah, man. I seriously, I was so nervous

1:03:39

when he's like, the plan was to bring him

1:03:41

back to Missouri to our home temporarily. I was

1:03:44

like, no. No, don't do it. Do not

1:03:46

bring this belligerent dumpster fire of a human

1:03:48

into your house. He's never leaving. And you

1:03:50

have your kids there. But he's going to be

1:03:52

horrible to everyone. You don't want your kids

1:03:54

around that. Maybe you deal with... If you're

1:03:56

a single dude, you're like, I'll deal with this for a month. Wife

1:03:59

and kids? Plus the Wi-Fi

1:04:01

is gonna get super slow. Gross!

1:04:04

But definitely, can you imagine having to share a

1:04:06

kitchen with a guy like that? No, thank you.

1:04:09

I have to say, it's pretty amazing that this

1:04:11

cop helped him convince his mother to move home

1:04:13

with him. From what I've seen of cops, they

1:04:15

do not tend to get involved in family affairs

1:04:18

like this. They're usually like, okay, has anyone heard?

1:04:20

Did somebody commit a crime? Okay, no, okay, like

1:04:22

everybody go for a walk, you know, cool your

1:04:24

jets. You guys figure this out amongst yourselves, goodbye.

1:04:27

No, I love that this cop just had a

1:04:29

spontaneous therapy session with them on the porch.

1:04:31

Bless that officer. He's probably like, oh, I've

1:04:33

seen this before. My brother's also a piece

1:04:35

of crap. Get your mom on it. It's

1:04:37

just got to speak to how obvious it

1:04:39

is that his brother is a straight up

1:04:41

loony tune and unfit to care for the

1:04:43

mom and that she's better off with our

1:04:45

friend. Otherwise, the cop would not have felt

1:04:47

comfortable lidying them like that, right? He would

1:04:49

have just been like, yeah, this isn't my

1:04:51

problem. I'm out. It's also interesting. Their mom

1:04:53

seems to be very easily influenced by other

1:04:55

people. People who are in positions of power,

1:04:57

right? Her older son, this police officer, she's

1:04:59

listening to everyone in this situation except the

1:05:01

one son who's most loving and capable of

1:05:03

taking care of her. Yeah, it's a good

1:05:05

point, man. I'm getting a picture of a

1:05:07

woman who just doesn't really know what she

1:05:09

wants or has any ability to make decisions

1:05:11

for herself or how to advocate for herself.

1:05:14

Or she's terrified of not doing what her

1:05:16

older son wants. You know, that pattern might

1:05:18

go back a long way. But then even

1:05:20

when things go off the rails multiple times,

1:05:23

it seems like she still needs a strong

1:05:25

person in a uniform to say, ma'am, you

1:05:27

know, maybe go live with the son who

1:05:29

isn't literally homeless for the fifth time.

1:05:31

Just a thought. It's fascinating, isn't it? And

1:05:33

it probably makes our friend here feel even

1:05:35

more unappreciated to watch his own mother not

1:05:37

realize who really has her back at all.

1:05:39

So he goes on. A few

1:05:42

weeks later, my brother had another

1:05:44

stroke and died. Oh,

1:05:46

OK. Plot twist. Yeah,

1:05:48

you didn't see that coming, did you? No, I did not.

1:05:50

I did not see that coming. Good. The turns just keep

1:05:52

on coming in this letter. It's crazy. We're

1:05:54

getting a whole movie here. I'm

1:05:56

so absorbed in the story. It's not even funny.

1:05:58

I hope you write something. in your career

1:06:00

gave half as good as this one

1:06:03

day. Because you can't make this stuff

1:06:05

up. This is really like a lifetime

1:06:07

movie on meth. Yeah, it

1:06:09

really is. I would never have thought up

1:06:11

the hitting people with a cane detail. That's

1:06:13

just a chef's kiss of a character or

1:06:15

portrait. It is. I'm sorry to say, I'm

1:06:18

not trying to be cruel here. I'm just

1:06:20

not feeling super sad. This guy almost, he

1:06:22

almost just got put out of his misery.

1:06:24

Oh, you're not mourning the violent parasite who

1:06:26

tortured our friend here since they were kids?

1:06:29

No, weird. Weirdly no. And I'm

1:06:31

not entirely surprised this happened either. I mean, I

1:06:33

guess I didn't see it coming here in the

1:06:35

letter, but look at the lifestyle, the mental health.

1:06:37

It's just gotta be such a huge problem off

1:06:39

your plate. Don't feel guilty about that. I guess

1:06:42

I'm sorry, kinda, I don't know, not really. I

1:06:44

did my best to comfort my mom through this

1:06:46

time and to show compassion for her for a

1:06:48

loss that I'm certain had to be difficult. Yeah,

1:06:50

it's her son, of course. And it's your brother.

1:06:52

So I'm sure you on some level were kinda

1:06:55

sad, but it's so complicated for you. I

1:06:57

was forced to handle my brother's final arrangements

1:07:00

at my expense, which was not unexpected. Unreal,

1:07:02

what a perfect punchline to this whole thing.

1:07:04

Sticking our friend here with a bill for

1:07:06

his cemetery plot and his oversized casket, of

1:07:09

course. And those babies are not cheap. He

1:07:11

probably dropped eight, 10, 12 grand laying

1:07:14

his brother to rest. We moved into a

1:07:16

larger home and made my mother comfortable. We

1:07:18

took care of her needs and tried to

1:07:20

give our children the relationship with their grandmother

1:07:23

that they longed for. Then, one

1:07:25

Sunday afternoon, we took my mom to lunch, bought

1:07:28

her some new clothes, and brought her home. The

1:07:30

kids went outside to play and I

1:07:32

stepped into my office for a few minutes. When

1:07:35

I walked back into the living room, my mom

1:07:37

had passed away. You're killing me with these

1:07:39

plot twists. After all of that? I know.

1:07:42

My God. Yeah. Wow. Well,

1:07:44

hey, look, I'm not trying to make light of

1:07:47

this. I'm very sorry that you had to say

1:07:49

goodbye. I'm obviously just having some strong feelings about

1:07:51

all of this. There's so much going on here.

1:07:53

That must've been quite a day though, especially

1:07:55

after the extraordinary way you cared for, you

1:07:58

fought for her, everything you went through together.

1:08:00

So intense, so painful, man. I really

1:08:02

want to give you a hug, man.

1:08:04

The things you have been through. My

1:08:06

gosh. I now feel so

1:08:09

conflicted about this. In my

1:08:11

mind, I know I did everything I could

1:08:13

to improve my mom's life, moving her from

1:08:16

squalor to a nice home where all her

1:08:18

needs were met. But the trauma of coming

1:08:20

so far to simply lose her in my

1:08:22

living room is devastating. Should

1:08:25

I have handled all of this differently? Should

1:08:27

I have been more accepting of my brother's behavior

1:08:29

or tried to do more for him? And

1:08:32

how do I find some peace when relatives

1:08:34

or old acquaintances go on and on about

1:08:36

how funny my brother was when I knew

1:08:38

him to be a very dark person, signed

1:08:41

a gutted son, shouldering a ton,

1:08:44

and wondering if he's done enough

1:08:46

for everyone? Wow, that was a

1:08:48

ride, Gabe. Good God. A

1:08:50

Feedback Friday family drama for the ages, seriously.

1:08:52

Truly, man. This is like a coming of

1:08:54

age story and three deaths. It's

1:08:57

almost poetic. This really does feel

1:08:59

like a novel or something. As high-high as low-lows, like

1:09:01

I said, this guy's been through the ringer here and

1:09:03

is this super-trooper. I mean, what a mensch you are,

1:09:05

man, for taking care of everyone like this. So look,

1:09:07

we spent a lot of time talking about your story

1:09:09

way more than I thought we would. We only have

1:09:11

a few minutes left here, so I'm just going to

1:09:13

be very direct with you. Should

1:09:16

you have handled this all differently? Not

1:09:18

really. No. You

1:09:20

were dealt a truly shitty hand with this brother, man.

1:09:23

That was not your fault. There was

1:09:25

no way that interacting with him around

1:09:27

your mom's care was ever going to

1:09:29

be easy. From what you've shared, you

1:09:31

took care of her beautifully, physically, emotionally,

1:09:33

financially. You advocated for her. You fought

1:09:35

for her. You gave her love. You

1:09:38

gave her safety. You gave her purpose.

1:09:40

You even respected her wishes when she

1:09:42

said she wanted to live with your

1:09:44

crappy brother, which might have been

1:09:46

very painful and nerve-wracking to accept.

1:09:48

And honestly, I cannot imagine

1:09:50

what you could have done better other than

1:09:52

maybe putting your foot down harder when she

1:09:54

said she wanted to live with him. I

1:09:56

might have tried a little harder to deprogram

1:09:58

her there, but you who knows what

1:10:00

he actually did, he didn't include that. Maybe tried

1:10:03

to help her really think through that decision, but

1:10:05

also, hey man, she was an adult. And if

1:10:07

that's what she wanted, at some point, you just

1:10:09

gotta go like, okay mom, go wherever you're happiest.

1:10:11

The only part of your story

1:10:14

I feel like you could have

1:10:16

handled differently, to Gabe's much earlier

1:10:18

point, was that initial decision to

1:10:20

move to Missouri from Alaska. Separating

1:10:22

from your family, building your own

1:10:24

life, developing meaningful relationships, that was

1:10:27

the best thing you ever did

1:10:29

for yourself. So it was a

1:10:31

little heartbreaking, to say the least, to hear that

1:10:33

you gave that up, gave yourself up, to go

1:10:35

care for your mom and your brother in some

1:10:38

ways, when she could have moved out to you,

1:10:40

or your brother could have stepped up, or you could

1:10:42

have maybe tag teamed the situation somehow, even

1:10:45

though he wouldn't have carried his, the other guy, you know, brother

1:10:47

wouldn't have carried his weight for shit. If you had written to

1:10:49

us back then, we probably would have

1:10:51

said, before you move and give up your

1:10:53

life, let's just take a beat, really think

1:10:55

this through, can you collaborate with your family

1:10:57

or your brother on your mom's care? What

1:11:00

would moving back bring up for you? Is

1:11:02

this the healthiest choice? Is this the fairest

1:11:04

choice? Why does all this responsibility fall on

1:11:06

you? Hey, and why are you so quick

1:11:08

to accept this? Exactly, but given what your

1:11:10

brother was capable of, or wasn't capable of,

1:11:12

maybe this was really the best option, and

1:11:14

then there's the fact that you met this

1:11:16

amazing woman in Missouri and you started a

1:11:18

family, which like Gabe said, maybe that was

1:11:20

why you had to move out there in some

1:11:23

grander sense, right? And honestly, that's wonderful. That

1:11:25

right there, she and your kids are

1:11:27

your reward for that huge

1:11:30

sacrifice. So I don't really know

1:11:32

what the point of dissecting the past is

1:11:34

at this point. It played out the way

1:11:36

it did, and aside from that one decision,

1:11:38

it seems to me that you handled this

1:11:40

whole saga with a ton of grace and

1:11:42

kindness and generosity. You're a hero, man, in

1:11:45

so many ways, come on. Completely agree with

1:11:47

you, Jordan. I just want to say the

1:11:49

only point in dissecting that decision now is

1:11:51

for our friend here to consider the ways

1:11:53

in which he might sometimes sacrifice his own

1:11:55

needs to satisfy people who might or might

1:11:57

not always deserve it. And also when it

1:12:00

might not actually be necessary. I

1:12:02

don't know if a choice like this will ever come

1:12:04

up again for him, but this theme might show up

1:12:06

in other parts of his life. Part

1:12:08

of the reason he might have had to go

1:12:10

through this whole ordeal is to confront this tendency

1:12:12

of his. And maybe in the future, if he

1:12:14

ever faces a choice like this again, he can

1:12:16

factor that in and maybe approach those decisions in

1:12:18

a different way and find a way to hang

1:12:21

on to himself while he also tries to take

1:12:23

care of the people who need him. To

1:12:25

your point, Jordan, at the top of today's episode,

1:12:28

not just making the right decision, but

1:12:30

making the right decision right. Yes, this

1:12:32

is a perfect example of that idea.

1:12:34

And like I said, our friend here

1:12:37

is very noble. He's selfless. He's responsible.

1:12:39

Those are virtues. But there's a flip

1:12:41

side to that, which might be self

1:12:43

abandonment. Yeah, self abandonment. Exactly. So should

1:12:46

you have been more accepting of your

1:12:48

brother's behavior? Should you have tried to

1:12:50

do more for him? Hell

1:12:53

no. Everybody listening is thinking hell no.

1:12:55

First of all, I think so. I

1:12:57

assume so. First of all, you are

1:12:59

already pretty damn accepting of his behavior, even

1:13:01

when it literally put your elderly mother at

1:13:03

a serious risk. Second, I don't think there's

1:13:06

more you could have done for him. I

1:13:08

don't think there's anything anyone could have done

1:13:10

for that guy. Your brother had severe issues.

1:13:12

You know this. Like I said, my heart

1:13:15

goes out to the little boy who was

1:13:17

hurt or neglected or just wired wrong, and

1:13:19

who turned into this weird, sad, very completely

1:13:22

incompetent adult. But he had a responsibility to

1:13:24

take care of himself. And more importantly, he

1:13:26

had a responsibility to honor the commitment

1:13:28

he made to taking care of your

1:13:30

mom. And he failed at that utterly.

1:13:32

To me, what's meaningful about this question

1:13:35

is that you're even asking whether you

1:13:37

should have been more accepting, more giving.

1:13:39

Again, that speaks to your kindness. It

1:13:41

speaks to your great capacity for being

1:13:43

of service. And it

1:13:45

might speak to an overactive sense

1:13:47

of responsibility on your part. And

1:13:50

maybe this persistent feeling that whatever

1:13:52

you do, it's never enough,

1:13:54

especially when it comes to your family. Which

1:13:56

I suspect is a feeling that probably goes

1:13:58

back a very long All of

1:14:00

that would be worth exploring now just for your benefit

1:14:03

now that you're on the other side of this. Amen,

1:14:05

Gabe. I completely agree with that. Now, about those people

1:14:07

who go on and on about how funny your brother

1:14:09

was, I definitely understand why that grinds

1:14:11

your gears. I get it. But in those moments,

1:14:14

you need to remind yourself, first of all, those

1:14:16

people only knew this version of your brother, one

1:14:18

aspect of your brother. They didn't have to live

1:14:20

with the guy. They didn't have to coordinate their

1:14:22

parents' care with him. They didn't have to get

1:14:24

hit in the leg with his cane or whatever

1:14:27

in the back, whatever. I'm still wrapping my head

1:14:29

around that image. It's like an Austin Powers movie

1:14:31

or something. So when these people go,

1:14:33

man, Garrett was such a riot. What a character!

1:14:35

I would just tell yourself, okay, they knew him

1:14:37

as one guy. I knew the real guy. Let

1:14:40

them have their opinion. It's not the full story.

1:14:42

And then do some, I don't know, Tai Chi

1:14:44

or whatever that weird crap is that Gabe would

1:14:46

do to calm down and just let the anger

1:14:48

pass on its own. That's how

1:14:50

I calm down in any situation. I just

1:14:52

bust out into Tai Chi and it's always

1:14:55

fine. It's very normal. Exactly. I mean, what

1:14:57

else are you going to do? You're not

1:14:59

going to write them a nine-page email explaining

1:15:01

why they're wrong, right? You just got to

1:15:03

feel the anger, let it roll off your

1:15:05

back. But also, look, maybe your brother was

1:15:07

kind of funny sometimes. I mean, he didn't

1:15:09

sound very funny when he was calling you

1:15:11

three times a week and berating you and

1:15:13

your wife. He didn't sound funny when he

1:15:15

was insulting you and Tonya heartying you with

1:15:17

his cane and then blaming it on his

1:15:19

fake brain injury. I mean, this sounds like

1:15:22

a nightmare. But I don't know. Maybe he

1:15:24

left funny Facebook comments for people. Maybe he

1:15:26

told a good story. I mean, that might

1:15:28

be the one bright spot of your brother's

1:15:30

personality. We contain multitudes, right? So if that's

1:15:32

the one thing about your brother that people enjoyed, if

1:15:34

that was the one nice thing that he put out

1:15:36

into the world, okay, that's something. You

1:15:38

know, you didn't get to enjoy that. You couldn't

1:15:41

enjoy that. But they could and

1:15:43

that's nice for them. And that's really

1:15:45

all it is. It's nice for them.

1:15:47

Yeah. The other thing is when somebody

1:15:49

is like, oh, he was so funny

1:15:51

and that's the best memory they have

1:15:53

of the guy. Like, oh, he wasn't

1:15:55

nice, capable, achieved anything sweet, caring. Right.

1:15:57

It's just like he told a great

1:15:59

dirty joke. after a few cocktails, yeah.

1:16:01

Yeah, oh man, when he got drunk, he

1:16:03

made fun of people and it was kind

1:16:06

of sort of like

1:16:08

a thing that we laughed at. Is

1:16:10

that the legacy to be upset about?

1:16:12

Yeah, really, I would not be jealous

1:16:14

of that. I wouldn't think these people

1:16:16

didn't understand. They only confined that little

1:16:18

tiny, little positive thing to say about him, come

1:16:21

on. So listen, my friend, you've been

1:16:23

on an extraordinary journey here, it was a journey filled

1:16:25

with a lot of pain, a lot of loss, a

1:16:27

lot of adversity, and it was also a journey filled

1:16:29

with a lot of love, a lot of joy, a

1:16:31

lot of growth. I'm gonna give it to you straight.

1:16:34

You were a great

1:16:36

son. Your brother was a

1:16:38

nightmare and you managed a very difficult situation

1:16:40

as well as you knew how, which all

1:16:42

things considered was pretty damn well. And

1:16:45

I can only imagine how painful it must

1:16:47

be to have your mom die so soon

1:16:49

after you kind of got her back finally,

1:16:51

after all the work you put in, all

1:16:53

the fighting you did. But you know, she

1:16:55

could have died in a filthy apartment across

1:16:57

the country with no lights and no groceries

1:16:59

and no running water. Good point and probably

1:17:01

no Oreos. And no Oreos, which I think

1:17:03

we can all agree would have been the

1:17:05

real tragedy. That is not what

1:17:08

happened, man. She ended her life in a

1:17:10

loving home, a safe home, knowing

1:17:12

that the one person who always had her

1:17:14

back was in the other room checking his

1:17:16

email or whatever and was coming right back

1:17:19

to make sure that she was happy and

1:17:21

taken care of. That is such

1:17:23

a gift, man. That is the gift. So

1:17:25

I really hope that you can take that in.

1:17:27

I hope you can make room for that fact

1:17:29

alongside all of these other tough feelings. And I

1:17:31

hope in time that you can find some peace

1:17:33

and meaning in all this. Your mom was insanely

1:17:35

lucky to have you in her life. You

1:17:38

guys were literally her saving grace. Just remember

1:17:40

that. Be proud of that. We're

1:17:42

sending you a huge hug. We're wishing you,

1:17:44

your wife, and your kids all the best.

1:17:47

Dude, that letter got to me, Gabriel. With

1:17:49

all the twists and then she, like, finally he

1:17:51

rescues her from this mess and then she passes

1:17:53

away. You know, if you believe in this kind

1:17:55

of stuff, which I usually don't, it's

1:17:57

like she was finally, she could relax enough. knowing

1:18:00

that she was safe. And that's why she checked out

1:18:02

at that time, whether you want to believe that or

1:18:04

not. I'm just glad she got to do that near

1:18:06

the family that took care of her. I

1:18:09

hope you all enjoyed this show or took something from

1:18:11

the show. I want to thank everybody who wrote in

1:18:13

this week and everybody who listened. Thank you so much.

1:18:15

Don't forget to check out the Patrick Wynn episode on

1:18:18

a narco state inside Burma, if you haven't done so

1:18:20

yet. The best things that have happened in my life

1:18:22

and business have come through my network. That is the

1:18:24

circle of people that I know, like and trust. And

1:18:27

I'm teaching you how to do the same thing for

1:18:29

yourself in our six-minute networking course. It's 100%

1:18:31

free. It's not growth. It's not schmoozy.

1:18:33

You can find it on the Thinkific

1:18:35

platform at sixminutenetworking.com. I wish I knew

1:18:38

this stuff 20 years ago. Dig that

1:18:40

well before you get thirsty. Build the

1:18:42

relationships before you need them. sixminutenetworking.com. Don't

1:18:44

forget the newsletter as well, jordanharbinger.com/news. We

1:18:47

dig into a past episode every week

1:18:49

and send it on out to you.

1:18:51

Show notes and transcripts over at jordanharbinger.com.

1:18:53

Advertisers, discounts, ways to support this show.

1:18:56

All at jordanharbinger.com/deals. I'm

1:18:58

at jordanharbinger on Twitter and

1:19:01

Instagram. You can also connect me on LinkedIn

1:19:03

and Gabe's over on Instagram at gabrielmizrahi or

1:19:05

on Twitter at gabemizrahi. This show is created

1:19:07

in association with podcast one. My team is

1:19:09

Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird,

1:19:11

Millio Campo, and of course Gabriel Mizrahi. Our

1:19:13

advice and opinions are our own and I

1:19:15

am a lawyer, but I am not your

1:19:17

lawyer. So do your own research before implementing

1:19:19

anything you hear on the show. Remember, we

1:19:21

rise by lifting others. Share the show with

1:19:23

those you love and if you found the

1:19:25

episode useful, please share it with somebody else

1:19:27

who could use the advice we gave here

1:19:29

today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what

1:19:31

you hear on the show so you can live what you

1:19:33

learn and we'll see you next time. We've

1:19:37

got a preview trailer of our interview with

1:19:39

poker star Annie Duke on how we can

1:19:41

learn to make better decisions by thinking in

1:19:43

bets instead of trying so hard to be

1:19:45

certain all the time. So stay tuned for

1:19:47

that after the close of the show. The

1:19:50

quality of your life is determined by the sum

1:19:52

of two things, the quality of your decisions and

1:19:54

less. When something bad happens to

1:19:56

us, we act as a skill

1:19:58

wasn't involved at all. We We just sort of

1:20:00

pawn it off to the luck elements. But

1:20:03

when good things happen, we sort

1:20:05

of ignore the luck element and we

1:20:07

say that it was because of our

1:20:09

great skill. A self-driving Uber just hit

1:20:11

until the pedestrian. But what

1:20:13

I thought was really interesting was

1:20:16

that the reaction was to suspend

1:20:18

the testing and just to take

1:20:20

the cars off the road, not

1:20:22

just the Uber cars, but other self-driving

1:20:24

vehicles. And what I didn't see

1:20:27

were any comparisons to

1:20:29

how self-driving vehicles did

1:20:32

for a thousand miles traveled versus

1:20:35

the technology that we already have on

1:20:37

the road, which is cars that are

1:20:39

driven by humans. We know that 6,000

1:20:42

pedestrians die per year by regular driven

1:20:44

cars. Let's say that you're on

1:20:46

the side of the road and you've got a flat tire.

1:20:49

And of course what everybody's thinking in that

1:20:51

moment is, I have the worst

1:20:53

life ever. Like, why do these things always happen

1:20:55

to me? I'm so unlucky. I'm so miserable. What's

1:20:58

really interesting to me about it is like you

1:21:00

could have gotten a promotion, like the biggest promotion

1:21:03

of your life three days before. And

1:21:05

you're not standing on the side of the road

1:21:07

going, my life's great because I just got the biggest

1:21:09

promotion I could ever imagine. So

1:21:12

imagine that you had this flat tire a

1:21:14

year ago. And now I'm

1:21:16

asking you today, a year later, how

1:21:19

much do you think that that flat tire

1:21:21

would have affected your overall

1:21:23

happiness over the year? For

1:21:26

more with any Duke, including some common

1:21:28

mistakes we make when evaluating decisions, check

1:21:30

out episode 40 here on the Jordan

1:21:32

Harbinger Show. This

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episode is sponsored in part by Walk-Ins Welcome

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1:22:07

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welcome embodies the importance of speaking plainly and

1:22:11

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1:22:13

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1:22:17

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1:22:19

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