0:03

Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host,

0:05

Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with

0:07

Feedback Friday producer, a guy who's really

0:09

going through it this week, so I'ma

0:11

spare him his usual roast today. Gabriel

0:13

Mizrahi. Thanks, man. I appreciate that. Yeah,

0:16

dude, I'm so sorry. We'll get into

0:18

what's going on in a second here.

0:20

But first, on the Jordan Harbinger

0:22

show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills

0:24

of the world's most fascinating people and turn their

0:26

wisdom into practical advice that you can use to

0:28

impact your own life and those around you.

0:30

So our mission is to help you

0:32

become a better informed, more critical thinker. And during the week,

0:34

we have long form conversations with people who will help you

0:37

do that. Folks like drug

0:39

traffickers, former jihadi's, gold smugglers, astronauts,

0:41

hackers, CEOs, and other amazing folks.

0:43

This week, we had Susan Casey

0:45

on just a fascinating insight into

0:47

the oceans. We talk about everything

0:49

from undersea mining to sea life

0:51

to shipwrecks. Who doesn't love shipwrecks?

0:54

Also coming this Sunday, we got

0:56

a skeptical Sunday coming up and it's

0:58

about porn, you perverts. So you're going to want to check

1:00

that one out. It comes out on Sunday. On

1:02

Fridays, though, we tell stories, take letters, offer advice,

1:05

and make room for the the

1:07

impossible, the mysterious, the absurd, I

1:09

guess. So on that note, Gabe, you

1:11

want to fill everyone in on what's going on? Sure.

1:14

Yeah, thank you. So yeah, if

1:16

you've been listening to the show for a

1:18

little while, you know that my cat Drake,

1:20

who's the first cat I

1:22

adopted on my own, my little homie,

1:25

he ended up living with my mom for a

1:27

variety of reasons. But one day about a year

1:29

ago, he went missing. And I talked about it

1:31

on the show if you haven't heard that episode.

1:34

Very weird and long story short, he disappeared

1:37

one day while my mom was renovating

1:39

the guest bathroom in her apartment. She

1:41

lives on the fifth floor of a building. And we

1:44

spent four, four and a half frantic days

1:46

looking for him the worst four days of

1:48

my life. And then we finally put it

1:50

together that the contractor accidentally

1:52

sealed him underneath the floorboards while

1:54

he was working. So

1:57

yeah, we tore up the concrete and luckily we found

1:59

him a lot. super

2:01

skinny but alive and totally fine. Yeah, one

2:03

of the greatest days of my life. So

2:06

I'm very sad to say that a

2:08

couple weeks ago, Drake disappeared

2:10

again and he's

2:13

been missing for two or three

2:15

weeks now as of this recording.

2:17

When this comes out, it

2:19

might be a couple more weeks I guess if we don't get

2:21

any news. And I gotta say this time,

2:23

we have no idea what happened.

2:25

It is so bizarre. We have no good

2:28

theories. We have no leads. It

2:30

is a total mystery how he got out or

2:32

where he went. It's like he vanished into thin

2:34

air. Except of course he didn't. I know there's

2:37

some explanation but all of the

2:39

theories we have are just so remote, so

2:41

insane. They just don't make any

2:43

sense. So yeah, I think it was like, oh

2:45

maybe he hid inside the couch and then the

2:47

workman carried out the old couch and he didn't

2:50

jump out the whole time and then he didn't

2:52

jump like it's almost like too far-fetched. Yeah. Far

2:54

more fetched than him going into a hole and

2:56

nobody noticing. Yeah. So the one weird thing that

2:59

happened, which we think, I mean it's the only

3:01

unusual variable. So I feel like it has to

3:03

be related to this somehow is that my mom

3:05

got two new couches, that was on a Friday

3:07

and then on Saturday the following day she had

3:09

some people come to the house and take away the

3:12

old couches. So obviously it must have

3:14

something to do with the couches, right? But I

3:16

don't want to bore everybody with every detail but like we

3:18

have pretty much confirmed that there's no

3:20

way he could have been in the couch, on the

3:23

couch. They're just, we looked at security camera footage of

3:25

the people coming and going, there's no cat in sight.

3:28

We have explored the weird theory that he

3:30

somehow got out the front door, went into

3:32

the neighbor's house where they're renovating. We

3:34

explored that fully. He's not there, he's not underneath

3:36

the floor boards there. So he

3:38

must have gone out the front door or

3:41

the balcony door, which he'd never done and he hates the

3:43

outside, which is part of what doesn't make sense. But

3:46

if he did that and then disappeared, he would have

3:48

had to jump five stories

3:50

down to the ground, which he has

3:52

never tried to do and

3:54

I don't even know but if that's what happened then he

3:57

might be injured or he might have made it

3:59

and wandered around. Anyway, we are doing

4:02

everything we can to find him, like everything. I

4:04

mean, everything we did last time and more. You

4:07

know, we're posting on all the websites. We're setting traps

4:09

in the building and around the neighborhood. Can't

4:12

believe I'm back in my unlicensed cat trapper

4:14

era. But we've even consulted

4:16

with a pet detective who, by the way, Jordan, I

4:18

have to tell you, this

4:20

pet detective is named Landa Coldiron,

4:23

which is the greatest name for

4:25

a pet detective ever. She can't

4:27

make this stuff up. It sounds

4:30

like Ace Ventura's partner in pet

4:32

detection. Totally, in the sequel. Yeah.

4:35

She's so on top of it and she's very good.

4:37

She's been advising us. But, yeah, sadly, I don't know.

4:39

I don't know. I can't explain. I

4:42

feel very sad. I'm very confused. I don't have

4:44

super high hopes that we're going to get him

4:46

back, but they say that we have

4:48

to keep trying for months potentially before we get

4:50

him back if we get him back. So, anyway,

4:53

yeah, man, we are just so heartbroken about

4:55

this. You know how much I love this

4:57

cat, Jordan, and my whole family loves this

4:59

cat. Now all of our listeners love this

5:01

cat because of the story I told last

5:03

year. I don't know. I don't

5:05

know if this is goodbye. I don't know if

5:07

he's maybe, if he died somewhere or if he

5:09

found a home and somebody picked him up because

5:11

he's so sweet and awesome and they have a

5:13

great new cat and he's okay or if

5:16

he's on the street but he's scraping by, we just don't

5:18

know. But, yeah, my heart

5:20

is very heavy and I go through

5:22

periods of being extremely sad and other periods where I'm

5:24

like, you know, it's not over. We might find him,

5:27

but I just want to share that with everybody because

5:29

we talk about our lives on the show and you

5:31

guys were so amazing the last time this happened with

5:33

Drake. And, yeah, like I said, if

5:35

you have any solutions whatsoever, I am all ears. So

5:37

thank you in advance for that. Yeah, I'm really hoping

5:39

he finds his way home, Gabe. Jen and I used

5:41

to have cats. You know how awesome they are. So

5:43

I'm just really sorry that you and your family are

5:45

going through this again and that you've had to set

5:48

up a North Korea level surveillance

5:50

state in your neighborhood to try and

5:52

find it. Thanks, man. Thank

5:55

you. And by the way, if I seem a little down

5:57

today on today's episode of My Voice is Weird, this is

5:59

why. Is it not because you

6:01

are wearing a blouse during your job interview? I'm

6:03

glad you brought that up actually and that might have

6:06

something to do with it. Yeah.

6:10

A bunch of you wrote me after our April Fool's

6:12

Day episode and you told me that the silk

6:14

vermilion shirt I wore to that interview

6:17

with the buttons on the wrong side

6:19

was almost certainly a woman's blouse. Yeah.

6:22

So yeah, in addition, I was like, I got like

6:24

five of these emails and at first I said, I

6:26

know this was a man shirt. It was just a

6:28

manufacturing defect. But the more I think of it, why

6:30

would there be a manufacturing defect like

6:32

that? So yeah, in addition to wearing

6:34

the worst possible suit to that interview,

6:37

I was also apparently cross-dressing. Thank

6:41

you all for pointing that out. I think it's just funny.

6:43

Every time I got one of those emails, it's like surely

6:46

other listeners have pointed this out, but I'm thinking it's a

6:48

woman's blouse. I'm like, I could reply to this, but it's

6:50

way more fun for me to hit forward and send that

6:52

to you again for the third time in an hour or

6:54

13th time in an hour or whatever it

6:58

is and be like, here's another guy who also

7:01

thinks you're wearing a blouse. Here's another lady

7:03

who knows you're wearing a blouse. It's definitely

7:05

not a manufacturing defect. People who make clothing

7:07

probably make like a hundred items of that

7:10

clothing per day. More. Sure.

7:13

Right? They're making a thousand blouses a

7:15

day. You think that person didn't notice they were putting them

7:17

on the wrong side? Zero

7:19

chance of that. This person can

7:21

do that in their sleep. A lot of

7:23

it makes sense. It was a little baggy,

7:25

a little flowy. Why was there so much

7:28

room in the chat? Yeah. It

7:30

was not a form-fitting shirt. No. It's

7:32

like something Russell Brand would buy. Exactly. You

7:35

made an already embarrassing story, even more humiliating guys,

7:37

but I love it. Thank you.

7:40

Thank you for that. Yeah. I got to

7:42

hand it to the fans for keeping it real and Rosin gave for

7:44

his ridiculous attire, which is one of our favorite past times, but that's

7:46

what you get for wearing a shirt that's not just red, but vermilion.

7:48

All right. Doozies. Hopefully, some

7:51

lighter ones too today on the show. Let's

7:53

dive in. All right.

7:55

So four and a half years ago, this

7:57

was in October of 2019. This

8:00

was also before I joined the show, a

8:02

listener wrote in to Jordan and his old

8:04

producer Jason with the following letter. Hello,

8:07

Jordan, Jason, and Jen. I recently discovered

8:09

your podcast and have been absolutely binging.

8:11

I love the two-part interview with Stephen

8:14

Hossen about combating cult mind control, but

8:16

never in a million years thought I

8:18

would have any practical use for it

8:21

unless a friend came at me with

8:23

some cancer-curing essential oil. That

8:25

was until I got a call from

8:27

my little sister saying that my mother

8:29

had almost been murdered by her new

8:31

boyfriend. I flew to my hometown the

8:34

next day. I was able to

8:36

stay for four days. We were in hiding

8:38

part of the time. I nursed my mother

8:40

back to health, arranged for the locks to

8:42

be changed, fed her, contacted legal resources, and

8:45

once we were able to return to her house, cleaned

8:47

it top to bottom from the bloody

8:49

mess he made and found evidence the

8:51

police missed. During this

8:54

time, I expected my mother to be

8:56

scared, angry, and out for revenge, but

8:58

shockingly she defended her boyfriend in language

9:00

I can only describe as having been

9:02

brainwashed. She said things like, he

9:05

was only like that when he was drinking or we

9:07

had such good times together. I

9:09

was at my wit's end that this previously

9:11

strong, independent woman had been trained to think

9:13

like this in just a few short months.

9:16

I wanted to scream. I

9:18

suddenly remembered the Stephen Hossen podcast. I

9:21

began using some of the tactics he

9:23

described like asking layers and layers of

9:25

questions. For example, when she discovered

9:27

he had stolen money from her, I would counter,

9:29

oh, did he steal when he was drunk too?

9:32

I slowly chipped away at all

9:34

her justifications, never screamed, never yelled,

9:37

never made her feel too stupid.

9:40

After four days, she was able to see that

9:42

this guy was never any good and had been

9:44

manipulating her the entire time to take advantage of

9:46

her. So with all my

9:48

heart, thank you. Now from what

9:50

I've described, you would think that this guy has

9:52

been locked up. Yes and no. He

9:55

was arrested at my mother's house after a welfare

9:57

check was called, so the police saw everything. with

10:00

no time for him to hide what he had done. Despite

10:03

that, he was released later that night.

10:06

I'm told that this is because of a

10:08

new law going into effect in my state,

10:10

where if someone can't afford cash bail, they

10:12

just sort of get

10:14

released. It's supposed to prevent

10:16

grave consequences from trivial crimes like losing your

10:18

job because you're stuck in jail after

10:21

getting arrested for something like weed. Or

10:23

attempted murder. But you know, whatever. We're working out

10:26

the people, we're ironing everything out. He

10:28

will eventually be arrested again once the

10:30

DA feels their case is in order,

10:32

so he won't escape the law. But

10:35

my family feels seriously let down by

10:37

the Justice Department because until then, he's

10:40

free. And we have no

10:42

idea where he is. He can easily

10:44

try to finish what he started. What

10:46

on earth can I do to try and make

10:48

sure this law does not get used as a

10:50

loophole for future families? Signed, Taking

10:53

a Break from Two Crime Podcasts. Right.

10:56

So of course I remember this story. And Jason

10:58

and my advice with Dr. Hasen's input was

11:00

basically, okay, this guy's clearly dangerous,

11:02

possibly slash probably a sociopath. And

11:04

this is just much more than

11:07

an alcohol addiction. We wanted her

11:09

to get her mother into counseling,

11:11

contact AARP Fraud Watch, which is

11:13

somebody who could potentially help with her identity

11:15

theft and money stuff. We also wanted

11:18

her to check out Dr. Hasen's webinar on

11:20

combating cult mind control techniques. One

11:22

idea that I thought was particularly interesting was

11:24

interviewing her mom, recording it with video, so

11:26

that if this guy ever decides to come

11:28

back into her life, you can remind her

11:30

with video evidence, like, hey, look, this is

11:32

how you felt. This is what happened. He

11:34

tried to kill you, etc. We

11:36

also wanted her to consider hiring an ex-FBI

11:39

investigator or a police officer who's now a

11:41

private investigator to do a little bit of

11:43

extra research on this guy. And

11:45

one of the main ideas we talked about, which

11:47

I thought was also a really good option,

11:50

was going to the media with the story,

11:52

warning other people about this guy, the implications

11:54

of the bail thing, because people might not

11:56

be interested necessarily, like, oh, one person's story

11:59

of domestic abuse. abuse, but it's like, if

12:01

it's the bail thing, here's what's

12:03

happening and we can't get police protection because of this

12:05

bail thing. Someone who is against the

12:07

bail thing from the jump for probably this reason

12:09

will jump on this. Right, exactly. So

12:12

then recently, this same listener wrote in again

12:14

and she had quite the update. So

12:17

she writes, hello, Jordan, and now Gabe.

12:20

I've been waiting five years to write in

12:22

with a comprehensive end to my feedback Friday

12:24

situation. I implemented as much

12:26

of your advice as my mother would allow

12:28

back then, which unfortunately was not much. Two

12:31

months after I wrote in, she was back with

12:34

her abuser. Cue

12:36

three years of cyclical manipulation,

12:38

violence, arrests, same day releases,

12:41

and reuniting.

12:44

New York State continued to let us down

12:46

again and again. Her abuser

12:48

would be arrested after the domestic violence

12:50

incidents that were too severe to hide,

12:52

but was often released from holding before

12:54

my mother was even released from the

12:56

hospital. Judges' hands were tied

12:58

because New York botched bail reform by

13:01

only considering poverty and not

13:03

risk. Insane. It

13:05

was pure, unadulterated absurdity. There

13:08

were witnesses to the abuse, friends,

13:10

roommates, neighbors, police. None of

13:12

it mattered. He even tried to burn

13:14

her house down. So the fire department

13:16

became aware of her address and situation.

13:19

I tried the media as well, but

13:21

no one would touch a bail reform

13:23

story that went against the mainstream narrative

13:25

that there weren't any negative outcomes or

13:27

unintended consequences of bail reform. This

13:30

guy is a real monster, and this is

13:32

so infuriating. I know we're wandering into politics

13:34

here a little bit with the bail reform

13:36

and the mainstream narrative stuff. I'm not nearly

13:39

educated enough to meaningfully weigh in on the

13:41

nuances of all that, but I do find

13:43

it frustrating that journalists wouldn't cover a story

13:45

capturing the dark side of letting tons of

13:48

violent people out of jail without bail.

13:51

Not even in the interest of overturning the

13:53

reform, just in the interest of Appreciating

13:55

all of the effects of major

13:57

policy decisions like this. Especially

14:00

the unintended effects. And I'm sorry to hear

14:02

that break. I commend you for trying. It's

14:04

just it's an important story and it's terrifying

14:06

that nobody wants to admit that this is

14:08

a problem. Throughout. Those three

14:10

years my two sisters in Iowa

14:12

different approaches to handling this crisis.

14:14

I was tough love and at

14:17

times rather mean. My. Middle

14:19

sister cut off mom entirely and

14:21

the youngest followed the domestic violence

14:23

playbook of support. Understanding and

14:25

keeping the metaphorical door open to our

14:27

mother. It's all understandable. These situations are

14:30

so tough. I also understand being really

14:32

angry at somebody who's just choosing. To

14:35

get attacked. Instead and same

14:37

atmosphere. Don't get me started, yeah, I

14:39

feel like I would be all three

14:41

of the sisters, and somehow at once

14:43

she goes on. Absolutely none of these

14:46

approaches where effective. I also eventually cut

14:48

my mother off entirely when I became

14:50

pregnant during the pandemics and had to

14:52

choose the situations I could afford to

14:55

stress about. I hear that. I mean,

14:57

that's perfectly understandable, say the least. Then

14:59

my mother' situation came to a head

15:01

when disguise succeeded in burning her house

15:03

to the ground on a second attempt,

15:06

while. He said it on fire

15:08

with himself. My mother, I disabled grandfather

15:10

and all of their pets inside. Oh

15:12

my god that is horrible. Miraculously only

15:14

one cat was last. Oh what a

15:17

wire will day for this letter to

15:19

come. Yeah man, I'm already feel and

15:21

sensitive about cats. Miss him. I'm. Terrible.

15:24

My mother's house was a double a touchdown

15:26

house so the neighbors on either side also

15:28

had damage and fallout from the fire. This

15:31

finally was enough for New York State to

15:33

said bail for this guy for the very

15:35

first time. And Twenty Twenty One. Who.

15:37

Was high enough that he spent almost two years in

15:39

jail before the case may the to trial. Then

15:42

just recently he was sentenced to

15:44

twelve years in prison. For.

15:47

The foreseeable future. This. Is

15:49

over. Thank god. Wow! Finally I'm Rob!

15:51

First of on so glad to hear

15:53

that this maniac deserves to be behind

15:55

bars. Literal. Multiple attempted murders

15:57

on top of all the abuse. What

15:59

a terrible. flying, despicable human being, I

16:02

will say that I am bummed that you lost

16:04

your cat and I'm also bummed that this guy

16:06

didn't just die. I mean, if you want to

16:08

kill yourself, go right ahead, you scumbag. Why are

16:10

you taking other people with you? I

16:13

mean, you're just an absolute piece of garbage.

16:15

Good riddance. This must be a huge relief

16:18

to you guys. I mean, the things you all have been

16:20

through. I'm also annoyed that he only got 12 years. He

16:22

tried to kill what, four people? And

16:24

multiple animals succeeded in killing one? And he burned

16:26

a house to the ground and damaged the neighbor's

16:28

houses and he gets the same sentence as somebody

16:30

who gets caught with a... Like

16:32

cocaine or something? Cocaine. Yeah, it's

16:34

freaking believable. It's infuriating. Yeah. So

16:37

she goes on, my sisters and I are slowly

16:39

repairing our relationship with our mother and she now

16:41

has her first two grandchildren. But

16:44

she suffers permanent brain damage from the

16:46

beatings and will never be the grandmother

16:48

I always dreamt she would be. Oh

16:51

man, that is so sad. Yeah. I

16:54

mean, I'm glad she's alive, but clearly the

16:56

effects still linger. He stole like a huge

16:58

part of not just her life, but all

17:00

of their lives. Our spouses

17:02

are tolerant of her, but there's zero

17:04

love lost over watching their wives suffer

17:06

from her life choices. Oh yeah. For

17:09

me, a line from Gavin De Becker's book, The

17:11

Gift of Fear, puts it best that at some

17:13

point a domestic violence victim

17:16

becomes a domestic violence volunteer.

17:18

Right. Yep. The

17:21

ways we often collude consciously or unconsciously with

17:23

predators, usually by ignoring our

17:25

intuition, warning the numerous alarm

17:27

bells that go off early on with somebody

17:29

dangerous. I imagine Gavin gets a decent amount

17:31

of flack for saying stuff like that because

17:33

it sounds like victim blaming. Right. And I

17:35

understand why people would see it that way.

17:38

But I've read his book, interviewed him here on

17:40

the show. I've walked away with a totally different

17:42

reading of that. I don't see this as victim

17:44

blaming. I actually see it as victim empowering. Right.

17:47

Because what Gavin's trying to do here is

17:49

push people and he can be a little

17:51

bit tough about this sometimes. I know it

17:53

comes from a place of actually caring about

17:55

this. He's pushing people to recognize how much

17:57

agency they do have and how we

18:00

still have a personal responsibility to protect ourselves from

18:02

people who want to harm us. Yeah,

18:05

and that's 100% compatible with having empathy

18:07

for victims and holding predators accountable like

18:09

this guy who targeted her mom for

18:11

years. Right. You can

18:13

be a victim and you can bear

18:15

some responsibility for remaining in a dangerous

18:18

situation. Even if you're attacked out of

18:20

the blue, even if you had

18:22

no signal someone was going to hurt you, how you

18:24

respond, how you recover, what you do with that experience,

18:26

that is something you have agency over. And we got

18:28

to make room for both. I'm not talking about like,

18:30

well, she got assaulted. Was she wearing a skirt? That's

18:33

not what I'm, you know, that's not what I'm going

18:35

with this. But if you are spending

18:37

years going back to somebody and bailing them out of

18:39

jail for trying to kill you, there's

18:42

a line that gets crossed somewhere. And sorry, I don't

18:44

mean to jump on ye olde soapbox, but this is

18:46

a topic I'm quite passionate about obviously. And

18:48

it's a big theme on Feedback Friday. Carry

18:51

on. When I first

18:53

heard that, I felt so validated

18:55

because I feel like the current

18:57

culture around supporting domestic violence victims

18:59

strips them of any and all

19:01

responsibility. My mom's abuser

19:04

was a monster, but she chose this

19:06

man over and over and over again,

19:08

over her safety, over

19:10

her children's safety, over her

19:12

relationship with her children, over her father,

19:15

over knowing her first grandchildren. She

19:18

can't even take credit for leaving him because

19:20

it was only the state finally setting bail

19:22

that finally forced her to separate from him and

19:25

slowly come out of her fog. It's

19:27

fascinating, isn't it? I might be about to

19:30

contradict my little rant a moment ago, but

19:32

it's an interesting question how much agency your

19:34

mom truly has. Because if she's

19:36

stuck around in a situation this insane

19:38

for so long, she must have

19:40

some very serious trauma and other qualities

19:42

that made it hard. Even I hate

19:45

using this word, but maybe even impossible to

19:47

see her situation clearly. And

19:49

having literal brain damage from being

19:51

beaten doesn't probably help either. Right.

19:55

Yeah, that's what's so complex about cases like this, right?

19:57

That's where the Gavin De Becker stuff, I

19:59

do think, has to go. get a little bit more

20:01

nuanced in practice because people's individual histories

20:03

and the unique circumstances of their

20:05

case, all of that, those really complicate the

20:07

whole idea of, oh, you're simply a volunteer,

20:10

you have control. I mean, you can leave

20:12

if you want to. Those things are true

20:14

to a point, but you also have to

20:16

wonder, are we ultimately constrained by our conditioning,

20:18

our biology, our gender,

20:20

our society, our childhoods, whatever?

20:23

There's so many angles to this. No, it's a fair

20:25

point. But yeah, I just wanted to acknowledge that even

20:27

though I obviously with everything our friend here

20:29

is saying, because look, if you

20:31

are staying with somebody and

20:33

you've got small children in the house and

20:36

he's not necessarily doing anything overtly

20:39

to them, which is hard, you know, small

20:41

children, they're suffering too, but maybe you can't

20:43

feed them or you don't want to leave

20:45

them alone with him because at least you

20:47

can control his behavior a little bit

20:49

or have it geared towards you instead of them if

20:52

you're around and you also can't survive and you don't

20:54

have family members. This woman had none of that, right?

20:56

She had daughters that would have taken her in in

20:58

a second. She had all these

21:00

other options and she was

21:02

like, and

21:04

you're just like, oh my God, you are choosing a psychopath

21:07

over your grandkids and your daughters. You're

21:09

at some point, it's just like you're

21:11

a moron. And I know that's not

21:14

as simple as that, but I understand that's how I

21:16

would feel. No, it's just such an interesting question. But

21:18

also she said that her mother wasn't like this before.

21:20

She said her mom was previously, what did she say,

21:22

strong and independent. So you have to

21:24

wonder what switch got flipped in her.

21:27

Was there something dormant just waiting for a predator

21:29

like this to come along or did

21:31

some other change in her life have to happen for her

21:33

to be vulnerable to this guy? Yeah, that's the mystery, but

21:35

it's also like, it's really

21:37

hard to maintain sympathy for somebody who

21:39

keeps doing that to themselves. It really

21:41

is. I'm now majorly

21:44

struggling with how to discuss what

21:46

my family survived. I still consider

21:48

myself left of center, but having

21:50

lived with the actual consequences of

21:52

newfangled liberal policies has shaken

21:54

my belief system to the core. I

21:57

live in a large liberal city, so when I try

21:59

to... discuss what my family went through with people. They

22:02

either get visibly uncomfortable and purse their lips

22:04

with nothing to say in defense, or

22:07

they try to explain to me that my family

22:09

was the exception to the rule, basically, sorry you

22:11

had to suffer for the greater good. They

22:14

think my situation was a rare outlier, but

22:17

stories like mine are not as uncommon as they

22:19

want to believe, and it still

22:21

happened, and our lived experience still matters. I'm

22:23

sure those people would feel the exact same

22:25

way if it was them in those shoes,

22:27

right? Sorry, we just have to suffer for

22:30

the greater good. No, this is nimbyism. This

22:32

is not in my backyard BS. It's

22:35

like those people that say, hey,

22:37

I've got dangerous people walking through my

22:39

backyard and threatening me and approaching my

22:41

house at all hours of the night

22:43

who are crossing the border, and everybody

22:45

goes, well, you know, we're

22:47

all doing the best we can. And it's

22:49

like, it's my backyard that they're in, though.

22:51

It's my backyard. It's my house they approach

22:54

at night with a shotgun looking for food,

22:56

water, and shelter, and who knows what else.

22:59

It's my backyard. You live in Michigan.

23:01

Of course you don't really care that

23:03

much. I'm very sympathetic to that.

23:05

I'm very sympathetic to that. Look,

23:07

your story is very stark, and it

23:09

challenges the easy narratives that justify broad

23:11

legislation. What you're coming up against in

23:14

those conversations is probably

23:16

cognitive dissonance, maybe a lack of empathy

23:18

in some cases. Most people do not

23:20

like having their opinions challenged by unsettling

23:22

data and not knowing what to believe.

23:25

It's a shame, but that's the truth. And

23:28

that's true of people across the political spectrum.

23:30

I'm not even talking about left right now,

23:32

pro-bale, anti-bale reform. This is just a human

23:34

thing, and obvious

23:36

flaws in that system. Right. Obviously

23:39

the only answer is to live in the

23:41

graves, right? To make room for lots of

23:43

different facts and realities, and can we all

23:45

accept that all laws are imperfect and have

23:47

unintended consequences? Like, that doesn't seem very controversial

23:50

to me, but yeah, sadly, I

23:52

guess that's hard for a lot of people. So she goes on,

23:55

I also learned something through this experience that no

23:57

one really talks about. You can't act

23:59

like that. actually help anyone. You

24:02

can give it your best shot, but if they don't

24:04

want help, if they want to live in

24:06

suffering, even in absurdity, there's absolutely nothing you

24:08

can do but wait for them to come

24:10

to you after the worst has happened, if

24:12

ever. Yeah, I feel like we

24:14

talk about that all the time. All the time,

24:16

constantly. Some would say a little too much like

24:19

that guy the other week who said all of

24:21

our advice is always the same and easily found

24:23

on Google. Shout out to that guy. Yep,

24:25

this is an old Feedback Friday Chestnut, but yet, obviously,

24:28

I totally agree with you. There's a very real limit

24:30

to what we can do for other people, especially if

24:32

they're not willing. I mean, it's a tale

24:34

as old as time. My situation taught

24:36

me that I had to let go

24:38

and let my mom drown in the

24:41

consequences that she ultimately chose and wanted

24:43

on some level. I'm still a

24:45

diehard fan of the show and love Feedback

24:47

Friday episodes. My only note would

24:49

be that maybe after all of your amazing

24:52

practical and dark Jordan advice, sprinkle

24:54

in that some people can't be helped. We are

24:56

truly powerless sometimes. Yeah, I feel like we literally

24:58

say that all the time, but I'm happy to

25:01

remind people of that. Instead

25:03

of frustrating me, this realization actually lifted

25:05

a huge weight off of my shoulders

25:07

and made me feel free for the first time in

25:10

a long time. Anyway, I don't know

25:12

if you can call this a positive update, but it's

25:14

not the worst update. No one

25:16

died, the bad guy is in jail, and

25:18

we're all slowly healing. New York

25:20

State has even rolled back some parts of bail

25:22

reform to allow judges to consider

25:24

risk in their rulings. I wonder how many

25:26

people had to die before they got that

25:28

memo. Interesting.

25:31

I mean, look, that seems reasonable. There's got to

25:33

be some middle ground between keeping people locked up

25:35

because they're poor and making sure that an abusive

25:38

arsonist murderer doesn't

25:40

get out of jail before their victims get out of

25:42

the hospital. Hello. Yeah, surely we

25:44

can figure that out. Right? It doesn't seem

25:46

that difficult. So she wraps up. Thank

25:49

you for writing back to me all those years

25:51

ago. You really helped me do all that was

25:53

in my power in a situation I was rather

25:55

powerless to control. Most of all,

25:57

I felt seen at my darkest hour. Please

25:59

keep doing that. doing such amazing work, I will be listening

26:01

on the other side. Signed, Breathing

26:04

Aside After My Real Life Bout With

26:06

True Crime." Whoo, what a letter.

26:08

What a letter. Man, I got a little bit choked up

26:10

there at the end, Gabe. I don't mean to make it

26:12

about us, but when we hear how this show has played

26:14

a role in y'all's lives,

26:17

I'm using that word, it really

26:19

does mean the world to us. We're just very

26:21

touched to be part of these incredibly intense experiences

26:24

that you guys go through. And to

26:26

know that you felt acknowledged and empowered by our

26:28

response, I didn't know that at the time, but

26:30

it really does mean a lot to us. I

26:32

don't actually have a ton more to add here.

26:34

Talked a lot there in the letter. This remarkable

26:36

letter also kind of speaks for itself, but we

26:38

wanted to share that update with everybody. And

26:41

also because the story captures so many of the

26:43

themes that we come back to again and again

26:45

on this show. The importance of taking responsibility for

26:47

life, owning your agency, finding

26:49

the things you can control, and

26:51

at the same time, recognizing the

26:53

limit of your influence, knowing when

26:55

to keep fighting, when to surrender,

26:57

making room for different opinions, multiple

26:59

perspectives, not settling on easy

27:01

answers or ignoring data or ideas that

27:04

are uncomfortable and inconvenient, dealing with

27:06

trauma, watching somebody you love deal

27:08

with trauma, allowing them to make

27:10

terrible choices repeatedly, sometimes even potentially

27:12

fatal choices. It's almost like this

27:14

story was written by Chat GPT

27:16

to bring to life every concept

27:18

and philosophy we explore on this

27:20

show. But I do want to say this, I am

27:23

so sorry that you went through this experience.

27:25

I'm sorry that your mom went through this

27:28

experience. What this guy did to you is

27:30

it's so far beyond the pale. It's

27:32

so extreme, so horrifying. Most people will never

27:35

understand what it's like to be targeted by

27:37

a psychopath in this way. And

27:39

I'm just so sorry that this happened to your family.

27:41

But I'm especially sorry for you personally in

27:43

a lot of ways, because you

27:46

had to stand by and watch

27:48

your mom continue to stay with

27:50

this guy when he was literally

27:52

determined to kill her. And yes,

27:55

that is absolutely tragic for her. She could have

27:57

been murdered in a way part of her has

27:59

been killed off. I mean that she's got brain

28:01

damage and trauma, but she could have

28:03

gotten out of it if she wanted to her At least

28:05

she could have fucking cried But you couldn't

28:07

you and your sisters and your whole family you couldn't

28:10

make her do this you were like you said powerless

28:12

And that's a unique pain to be

28:14

on the sidelines to not be able

28:16

to influence the person who needs to make a change

28:18

to change and To not

28:20

have power really over a system that allows

28:23

monsters like this to continue hurting people That's

28:26

a recipe for a kind of sadness

28:28

a rage a helplessness that is

28:30

just awful But it sounds to

28:33

me like you moved through those feelings

28:35

with a lot of grace a ton

28:37

of patience a ton of compassion and

28:39

understanding As well as some crucial boundaries,

28:41

especially during your pregnancy and that

28:43

is tremendous You're a poster child

28:45

for doing the thing we talk about all

28:47

the time, which is surrendering to what's happening

28:49

inviting in the grief working through

28:51

those feelings in your own way Sometimes

28:54

when we say that and I know we say it

28:56

a lot There's a little voice in my head going

28:59

but how how do we explain how to

29:01

do that? Do people really believe

29:03

that's possible and your letter

29:05

is a case study in doing exactly that and

29:07

I'm I'm sure it was beyond hard I'm

29:10

sure you had your moments I'm not gassing you up like

29:12

hey you were total Buddha you crushed this Three-year

29:14

long cycle of abuse and almost homicide

29:17

if I bit in your shoes, I would have

29:19

been a mess I would have called Sammy the

29:21

bull and been like how do I get this

29:24

guy's legs broken and the message to him? Very

29:26

very clearly right? Honestly, that's not a terrible solution

29:28

I guess situation like this, but overall you did

29:30

good tag dark Jordan. Yes lawyer not your lawyer

29:35

Hiring a mafia enforcer to break this man's legs

29:37

and threaten his life if he comes back is

29:39

not legal advice In fact, it's the opposite of

29:42

legal advice Overall you did

29:44

great I'm sure your sisters went through their

29:46

own processes too And and maybe those were

29:48

different and that's fair. I suppose I

29:51

also love this thing You said about recognizing that

29:53

you had to let your mom live with the

29:55

consequences of her decision You know you had to

29:57

accept that staying with this maniac was what she

29:59

wanted on some level, again, I do

30:01

think it's more nuanced than that. It's so

30:03

hard to know what your mom did and

30:06

didn't want, whether she was even capable of

30:08

wanting in the way that a high-functioning person

30:10

is. But accepting that powerlessness at a certain

30:12

point, making some peace with that,

30:14

that is so profound and it's so hard

30:17

because, as we also talk about a lot,

30:19

that can feel a lot like giving

30:21

up. But it's not giving up. You

30:23

can still act, you can still hope, you

30:26

can still keep the door open to your mom, you

30:28

can still intervene when necessary. But

30:30

knowing what you truly have control over and what

30:32

you don't have control over, man, I

30:34

don't know, the older I get, the more I

30:36

realize how alarming it is to recognize just how

30:39

little we do have control over in life. I

30:41

think that's wisdom. So I'm not surprised that you

30:43

felt liberated by that. You said you felt like

30:45

you shrugged off a huge burden. It actually makes

30:47

me wonder how much of

30:49

the heaviness we tend to feel in

30:52

very stressful situations. How much

30:54

of that is about the stressful situation itself

30:56

and how much of it is about

30:58

the belief that we hold, that we can control

31:00

it, that we have to control it. I don't

31:02

know. That's just something I want to sit with and think

31:04

about, especially as I go through this manhunt

31:07

or cathunt for Drake because it's

31:09

like I can only do so much and

31:11

so much of it is just a big question mark. Yeah.

31:14

I feel you, man. And like you said,

31:16

you still act, you still try, you don't

31:18

give up but you can also take on

31:20

more responsibility than is actually helpful. Sometimes that

31:22

response or responsibility is just not yours. And

31:24

I'm speaking more about forcing someone to save

31:27

themselves from a literal predator than finding your

31:29

cat, of course, but I'm sure that idea

31:31

applies in some way to both. Man,

31:34

what a thing your mom put you through. Once

31:36

somebody says you're doing this to your children,

31:38

how do you not wake up from that?

31:40

Let's say you value yourself at zero. Don't

31:42

you value your kids and your grandkids? I

31:45

just can't wrap my mind around this. I'm

31:47

glad it's all over for now anyway. I

31:49

hope this guy doesn't somehow get out early

31:51

to overcrowding or whatever and come back for

31:53

your mom. I doubt it given what he's

31:55

done. I really hope this is

31:57

over for you guys. Try to protect your

31:59

mom however you can. especially now that you

32:01

know she's so compromised, I would make

32:04

sure you know when his parole hearings are

32:06

and show up to those with a statement

32:08

about how he tried to kill your mom

32:10

and kept coming back and burned down the

32:12

house and yada because the parole board, they

32:15

might go, oh, domestic violence, arson, okay, but

32:17

if you come in and you're like, this

32:19

man has tried to kill our whole family

32:21

so many times, they might be like, letting

32:24

this guy out? Where's that

32:26

weed dealer? Let's let that guy out. He's,

32:28

yeah, come on, this stuff matters. I

32:30

also hope this dude doesn't write her from prison every

32:32

day like, I'm so sorry and then 10 years later

32:34

when he gets out early again due to overcrowding, she

32:36

picks him up and they start this BS all over

32:38

again. I would just try to stay close to your

32:40

mom, keep reminding her of how much

32:42

better off she is without him in her life and

32:45

thank you for sharing your story with us,

32:47

with all of us. We are very relieved

32:49

for you, we're super proud of you, sending

32:51

you, your mom and your sisters a big

32:53

hug and wishing you all the peace and

32:55

healing that you deserve. You know

32:57

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35:17

That to feedback from. Okay

35:21

with nest geared toward and again I

35:24

work in a big company where we

35:26

do some lobbying and public affairs for

35:28

player. Some years ago we were concerned

35:30

about an environmental regulation that could become

35:33

too strict. My. Boss started to

35:35

gather some documentation and raised questions

35:37

about were legitimate in a scientific

35:39

debate. Then. Covert struck

35:41

and she started discussing the efficacy

35:44

of vaccines the real severity of

35:46

covered. And the fact that

35:48

all of the lockdowns were organized by Big

35:50

Pharma. Know She talks about the

35:52

fact that countries have no real power and

35:54

that everything is organized by the United Nations,

35:57

which is a tool for private interests namely

35:59

Bill Gates and. BlackRock. Then,

36:01

a month ago, she showed me a post

36:03

on Twitter about children being sex trafficked in

36:05

a synagogue. When I asked

36:07

her what the sources were, she said that newspapers

36:09

are muted and not allowed to cover

36:11

this kind of news. She shared

36:14

this, by the way, even though she knows I'm

36:16

Jewish. I'm no doctor,

36:18

but I have an autistic child

36:20

myself, and I suspect that my

36:22

boss has undiagnosed autism. This

36:24

makes her make some very inappropriate remarks,

36:27

but it also gives her a dedication to

36:29

every detail that makes her a

36:31

very respected professional in our field. What

36:34

should I do here? How can I

36:36

state that I don't agree with my boss's

36:38

conspiratorial claims? Signed, trying to

36:40

clap back when my boss talks smack

36:43

without catching flack for an attack on

36:45

her lack of facts. Interesting. All right.

36:48

Well, we've taken letters about conspiratorial friends, conspiratorial

36:50

partners, conspiratorial family members, but I don't think

36:52

we've ever heard about how to deal with

36:55

a conspiratorial boss. So this

36:57

is a tricky one because first of all, the power

36:59

dynamics between an employee and a boss

37:01

are already complicated. If you clap back

37:03

at her like, hey, your sources are

37:06

crap, your opinions are dodgy, don't share

37:08

this nonsense bullshit with me, that

37:10

could obviously infect your working relationship. You know,

37:12

she could turn on you, she could view

37:14

you as one of the...you're one of the

37:16

sheeple buying into mainstream nonsense. She could withdraw

37:18

some of her support or respect for you,

37:20

which is a risk. Also

37:22

it sounds... Clearly she struggles with

37:25

reading the room and that might

37:27

not entirely be her fault to your earlier

37:29

point. Obviously, I have no idea if she's

37:31

on the spectrum, but based on

37:33

what you've shared, she probably struggles with social

37:35

cues, with consistently empathizing with

37:38

people and possibly a slight

37:40

sprinkle of antisemitism. It's hard to say, but

37:42

you never know. So what feels

37:44

personal and loaded, it might just be her

37:46

getting pumped about these zany ideas and just

37:48

not realizing how they come across to other

37:51

people. It does not make it

37:53

okay, but it does make it

37:55

somewhat understandable and not as personal as

37:57

it feels, but then you guys... work

38:00

in lobbying, public affairs, it sounds like

38:02

you're dealing with nuanced issues that don't

38:04

have simple answers like that environmental regulation

38:06

and those topics do deserve a certain

38:09

degree of skepticism and independent thinking which

38:11

your boss is clearly willing to

38:13

engage in. Now, being skeptical in a

38:16

healthy way, that's obviously different from

38:18

straight up conspiratorial thinking. The

38:20

former is principled and rigorous and

38:22

has some kind of standards and

38:24

has some guardrails. The latter, it's

38:26

reckless, it's fuzzy, it's chaos, it's

38:29

these rabbis that are pedophiles based on

38:31

some post on freaking Twitter with zero

38:33

evidence as opposed to, okay, this whole

38:35

narrative around how lockdowns were necessary, that

38:38

isn't as black or white as the

38:40

government said before, the data's mixed, school

38:42

closures, yada yada, totally different conversations. But

38:45

I can also appreciate a boss in this space

38:47

who's not super eager to buy into easy answers

38:50

or mainstream narratives because that might

38:53

in fact be part of effective lobbying and

38:55

managing public affairs. And to your point, it

38:57

might also be part of why she's so

38:59

good at it, her dedication to every detail,

39:01

it's probably in some ways a superpower. Although

39:03

that's one of the ironies of the story,

39:05

right? She's obsessive about details at work, she's

39:07

so thorough but then when it comes to

39:09

stories about pedophiles and big pharma and private

39:11

interests, she doesn't seem as rigorous about the

39:13

sources, she's being, sounds like

39:15

willfully blind to the specifics which

39:18

is precisely what conspiracy theorists do.

39:20

Yeah, it's a strange contradiction. You

39:22

don't usually find those two tendencies

39:24

in the same person. Right,

39:26

right. But that's got to speak to a part of her

39:28

that wants to buy into this stuff, right? Right, yeah. It

39:31

makes her feel smarter or something like that or she

39:33

finds community in it and she's otherwise lonely because she's kind

39:35

of a weirdo who can't read the room, right? So

39:38

who knows really why this is, whether it's her

39:40

personal history or her values or just because she

39:42

finds the stuff entertaining. So look, if

39:44

this were your friend, your partner, your

39:47

parent, my advice would be to ask

39:49

them open curious non-judgmental questions and

39:51

slowly get them to consider all the reasons they

39:54

hold these beliefs. But because this

39:56

is your boss, a person who holds power over

39:58

you, who has a unique relationship, with

40:00

you, which means you have less stakes and less

40:02

responsibility to change her mind in my opinion and

40:05

also somebody who doesn't seem particularly open to

40:07

changing her mind, I'm actually leaning towards the

40:09

opposite course of action here. My feeling is

40:11

that your boss's opinions are kind of none

40:14

of your business and you have more

40:16

to gain by not engaging with her on this type

40:18

of stuff. Now the hard part

40:20

is that she's making it your business by

40:22

showing you frickin' crapola about

40:24

pedo rabbis and how Bill Gates

40:26

invented COVID-19 or whatever and

40:29

I'm sure that's hard for you both as a

40:31

responsible employee and as a Jewish

40:33

person who's being shown just

40:35

clearly anti-Semitic nonsense. It's really

40:37

hard when somebody in a position

40:40

of authority says stuff that's distasteful,

40:42

irresponsible, sometimes even hurtful. So

40:44

I'm not saying you don't have good reasons to want

40:46

to speak up, I'm just saying that on a practical

40:48

level, I'm just not sure it's worth it. What

40:50

I would do instead is just basically

40:52

ignore it, draw some respectful boundaries around your

40:55

time and I pin that on work

40:57

rather than on your personal beliefs. So

40:59

for example, if you guys are in

41:01

a meeting about a new lobbying initiative and she goes, oh by

41:03

the way, did you see that post on

41:05

X about how Pfizer executives funded a lab in

41:07

Wuhan that invented the virus so they could prop

41:09

up their stock price because three of the board

41:11

members are Jews and they play golf with Bill

41:13

Gates and the lizard people, something, whatever.

41:15

I would just be like, wow, crazy but listen, I got a

41:17

lot of work to do, I really want to make sure I

41:19

get this done for you. So let's close the

41:21

loop on the lobbying stuff and then I am gonna

41:23

go back to my office and put my head down.

41:26

That's harder for her to argue with and it'll

41:28

communicate to her that your top priority at work

41:30

at the office is actually doing

41:32

work. What a concept, right? You're not shutting

41:34

down the conversation because you disagree, you're

41:37

shutting it down because you're disciplined. Just make

41:39

sure you don't roll your eyes and

41:41

put a little judgy stank on that script if

41:44

you use it, not that she would pick up

41:46

on that, but you got to resist the urge

41:48

to blend in the subtext. Just keep it neutral,

41:50

keep it professional. But if this ever becomes

41:52

untenable for you or if your boss ever

41:54

tips over into something more problematic like you

41:56

realize she just actually doesn't like Jews, she's

41:59

anti-Semitic, she's openly denigrating Jewish people in

42:01

meetings or attacking you in some way,

42:03

then I'd consider speaking up, either addressing

42:05

it directly with her or talking to

42:07

HR about it and document all this

42:09

stuff. If he sends you a text and it's like, Jewish

42:12

rabbi sex trafficking screenshot, put

42:15

it in an album on your phone, be done

42:17

with it. Email comes in about this and by

42:19

the way, have you seen this COVID night screenshot

42:21

or take a picture of your computer screen on

42:24

your personal phone, not on work equipment and

42:26

save it and just file it. And then if you

42:28

check at the end of the year when she's finally

42:30

going full cook and you've got 400 screenshots in there,

42:32

now you got a case, talk to HR about it.

42:35

It's a different problem. I'm not sure you're there yet.

42:37

Dodge this stuff. That's your best bet. It takes a

42:39

lot of grace and discipline to do and you're probably

42:42

going to have to do some heavy breathing in the

42:44

break room sometimes, but it's worth it. Good

42:46

luck and yeah, we'll see you at

42:48

our annual lizard people Jewish Illuminati meeting

42:50

inside the Hololive. You

42:53

can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com. Please

42:55

keep your emails concise. Try to use

42:57

descriptive subject lines. That makes our job

42:59

a whole lot easier. If you're

43:01

finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, your stepdad's

43:04

got your nudes, your neighbors are eavesdropping on

43:06

your therapy sessions through the wall or your

43:08

brother is obsessed with goats. That

43:10

one last week, Gabriel, that was so

43:12

good. It was bad. Whatever's

43:15

got you staying up at night lately, hit us

43:17

up Friday at jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and

43:19

we keep every email. No, I'm

43:21

going to miss. All

43:24

right. Hey, Jordan and

43:26

Gabe. I'm 33 years old and

43:29

I'm currently fighting stage four cancer. This

43:31

is actually my second time with cancer. Oh

43:34

man, 33 years old. That's

43:37

rough. So sorry. When I

43:39

was a young 20 something, I took out two school loans

43:41

at 14.75% and 14.25% interest rates

43:46

and I can't afford them. I

43:48

have many regrets. And

43:51

recently I was denied total and

43:53

permanent disability by my student loan

43:55

provider, Sally May, and their third

43:57

party, Minnesota Life, because I work. But

44:00

I work because I want to keep my insurance.

44:02

They have a program that pays for 100% of

44:05

my meds and the meds normally cost $4,000

44:08

a month. Also, it would

44:10

take two years to get on government insurance

44:12

which would be a death sentence for

44:15

me. Plus, I can work. I

44:18

hear that I need to get a lawyer to fight

44:20

a battle with Sallie Mae which will take at least

44:22

two years and to not give up on this while

44:24

also fighting for my life. I'm hopeful

44:26

about finding a program that helps cancer

44:29

patients afford attorneys but

44:31

I'm feeling overwhelmed. I just

44:33

want to have this heavy financial load off my shoulders.

44:35

I'm feeling frustrated with Uber capitalism.

44:39

These loan companies can do sketchy stuff and get

44:41

away with it. They've had

44:43

many lawsuits and lost cases but

44:45

they're still in business. Why

44:47

don't private student loan providers have to

44:49

provide programs for repayment for people with

44:51

disabilities who don't qualify right

44:54

away for permanent or total disability

44:56

loan forgiveness? Why are

44:58

private loan companies not regulated? What

45:01

should I do? Signed, looking for

45:03

answers while I battle two cancers.

45:05

Listen, you godless communist. No, man, seriously,

45:08

what a letter and what a thing you're going through.

45:11

Let me start by saying I am so sorry

45:13

you're going through cancer again by the way and that

45:15

you're in this absolutely awful position of having to choose

45:18

between taking care of your health and taking care of

45:20

debt. By the way, I can't

45:22

believe that those loans are 14 plus

45:24

percent interest. I feel like back in the day,

45:26

mine were at least 10 percent lower than

45:29

that. I think I had a three something and maybe

45:31

a five something together and I had

45:33

a lot of debt. It's shocking that

45:36

they can make student loan interest rates as

45:38

high as my credit card. It's

45:40

just unbelievable. That's insane. I don't mean to

45:42

get into politics here but hearing your story,

45:44

it's just hard not to comment on the

45:46

state of this country and to be fair,

45:48

the dark side of capitalism everywhere even though

45:50

I am to be clear a big believer

45:52

in it is the single best engine for

45:55

upward mobility in history, capitalism that

45:57

is. choose

46:00

between getting the life-saving medication for

46:02

cancer and not going

46:04

bankrupt is literally insane. And

46:07

it is not okay. And our Canadian Joe

46:09

fans and our European listeners are just, every

46:12

time they hear something like this, they're just blown

46:14

away when they hear how much ambulance rides cost

46:16

or how much medication costs. I don't

46:18

know. I mean, it's just wild and

46:20

it's not getting better. That's the

46:22

other problem. Yeah. No one's doing

46:25

much about it. Yeah. Those listeners are

46:27

shaking their heads right now as the image of a

46:29

dumpster fire with a bald eagle flying over in their

46:31

mind. No doubt. No kidding.

46:33

And I'm not necessarily getting on a soapbox for

46:35

socialized medicine or student loan forgiveness. I actually have

46:37

quite a few opinions on that. That might surprise

46:39

you. All of these solutions

46:42

have their upsides and they're very

46:44

real downsides. So when we

46:46

take a letter like this, it just makes

46:48

the impact of this stuff so vivid. And

46:50

my heart absolutely breaks for people, especially hardworking

46:53

people like our friend here, who have to

46:55

fight stage four cancer

46:57

and work a full-time job and keep Sally

47:00

fricking May off their back so their wages are

47:02

going to get garnished and their credit score is

47:04

going to tank. This is

47:06

late capitalism in a nutshell. It's

47:09

just sort of horrifying to see this. I mean,

47:11

it shouldn't be that hard to defer these loans.

47:14

In fact, it's also criminal, the interest rate, but I kind

47:16

of already covered that. And I know you're not asking for

47:18

a pity party and I appreciate that, but my God, the

47:20

things you are going through right now. So

47:22

first of all, I don't know

47:24

why student loan companies aren't better

47:27

regulated. I don't know why they

47:29

don't offer accommodations for certain disabilities

47:31

like fighting cancer for your life.

47:34

Maybe John Oliver knows the answer. That's a topic he'd

47:36

rail on for 20 minutes until we forget about it

47:38

and move on to the next horror show. What

47:40

I do know is that you have to

47:42

work with what you've been given. You have to prioritize

47:44

and you got to do one thing at a time.

47:47

So the first order of business, if you

47:49

can't hit pause on the debt and you

47:52

truly can't get on government insurance immediately, you

47:54

got to prioritize your health. Cancer

47:57

before Sallie Mae, obviously, because if

47:59

you make decisions... at the expense of your health,

48:01

what is the point? Your job right now is

48:03

to get healthy, to stick around on earth instead

48:06

of under it as long as possible. So

48:08

that either means keeping your job and having to

48:10

continue paying these loans as best you can or

48:12

it means quitting your job and getting on government

48:14

insurance and getting a moratorium on the debt. I

48:17

am a little surprised to hear that it

48:20

would take two years to get on government insurance.

48:22

I know those programs can be a hot mess,

48:24

but I would triple confirm that that's really the

48:26

case because that sounds insane to me. I

48:29

have friends who've gotten government healthcare, they have to pick

48:31

up the phone and advocate for themselves all the time,

48:34

but they were able to get on pretty quickly and

48:36

get care. Maybe I'm being naive, I don't know. But

48:38

then I'd rather you have private

48:40

insurance through your company and you said

48:42

you can work and I wonder if

48:44

working is also giving you some much

48:46

needed structure, community, distraction through all

48:49

this. So those are other good reasons to

48:51

go that route. Second, I would definitely go

48:53

the lawyer route and fight Sallie Mae on

48:55

this. I hate that this would be another

48:57

expense, but I do wonder if

48:59

there are attorneys who specialize in this. Maybe

49:02

they got the template they send to student loan companies

49:04

ready to go. Maybe they know exactly what to say,

49:06

how to say it, which department it's got to be

49:08

said to and it actually wouldn't cost you

49:10

all that much. I don't know. I want

49:12

to see you stick it to these predatory companies that

49:14

don't have a freaking checkbox on their website for

49:16

sorry bro, I'm fighting stage four cancer, I need

49:19

an extension or maybe a deferral or whatever they

49:21

call it. I can't believe it. Right. Also,

49:24

a lawyer might be able to advise you on

49:26

whether it'd be possible to discharge this debt possibly

49:28

through bankruptcy. I really hope it doesn't come to

49:30

that, but we've been talking about bankruptcy a lot

49:32

on the show recently because we got a lot

49:34

of letters about it. It is an option. Now,

49:36

that used to be really hard, but we did

49:38

some reading on this and those student loan reforms

49:40

that the Biden administration recently made. So

49:42

one of the big initiatives was making it

49:45

easier for borrowers who are experiencing hardship to

49:48

discharge their student loans in bankruptcy.

49:50

Now, unfortunately, it's not as easy

49:52

as saying, hey, I have stage four cancer so

49:54

I can't pay. Apparently, you

49:56

would need to engage in an adversarial

49:58

proceeding, which is basically. The a lawsuit.

50:01

Against. The soon loan company where you

50:03

would have to prove that you're experiencing with

50:05

called undue hardship which by the way

50:07

as an extremely difficult standard to meet. We.

50:10

Read up on that to the criteria

50:12

for undue hardship: Ard: A demonstrating an

50:14

inability to maintain a minimum standard of

50:17

living. Be persistent financial

50:19

difficulties and see a good

50:21

faith effort to repay the loans.

50:24

Which. You might be able to prove with

50:26

an attorney's help, although keeping your job. I

50:28

don't know that might already disqualify you from this

50:30

option because you're not. you know, on the street,

50:33

living in your car, in massive credit card debt

50:35

or whatever. but you could be. And.

50:37

You have been paying these loans faithfully up till

50:39

now, which counts for something. But. Then

50:41

we all know these lenders have a lot of

50:43

power. They have a ton of resources so I'm

50:45

afraid you will have to prepare for a fight.

50:48

On. The bright side though? toward the end

50:50

of last year, the Justice Department released

50:52

some data on these cases. And.

50:54

They said that of the ones that

50:56

were resolved, ninety nine percent of them.

50:59

Ended in either a full or a

51:01

parcel discharged. Now. The question of

51:03

courses? how many of these cases actually end

51:05

up getting resolved right? And while you do

51:08

all that, I would consider starting a Go

51:10

Fund me to help raise the money. And

51:12

again, don't get me started on what it

51:14

says about our system that a person with

51:16

a full time job needs to start of

51:18

frickin' crowdfunding campaign to stay alive. This page

51:20

breaks my heart, but people do it all

51:22

the time and it does work. Even if

51:25

you raise four, five, eight grand, it could

51:27

be huge for you because what is at

51:29

a two month buffer on your medication? As

51:31

they said in the letter according. To pricing

51:33

eat much if you do this. I'd

51:35

take the time to really tell your story

51:37

in the campaign description, maybe make a little

51:40

video posted. You basically want to say hi.

51:42

I have to work to keep my medication.

51:44

I can work. I'm happy to work, but

51:46

I'm somehow in this impossible situation where I

51:48

have to decide whether to quit my job

51:50

and go and government insurance so I don't

51:52

die from cancer or keep working and have

51:55

my money go straight to Sallie Mae at

51:57

it frankly exorbitant interest road. So I'm humbly

51:59

and great. opening myself up to your help.

52:01

I've had a few friends over the years do this

52:04

and I always gladly donated. I hate that it comes

52:06

to this but it is an option and you have

52:08

a very compelling story to tell. She does. And speaking

52:10

of your compelling story, I would also approach taking

52:13

a cue from Q1 here, a

52:15

few journalists and see if they would be interested

52:17

in covering your story. I know

52:19

this isn't exactly news. People have been talking

52:22

about the student loan crisis for a while

52:24

now but hanging an article about the horrors

52:26

of the student loan situation on a story

52:28

like this, I think that would

52:30

make it extremely interesting and relevant to people.

52:33

Seriously, it doesn't get much more sympathetic than this. It's

52:35

not like, oh, I was an art major and I

52:37

took out $200,000 worth of loans and I can't find

52:39

a job. Never gonna buy

52:41

a house. This is like, I'm literally dying.

52:43

This is not my fault. And you want

52:46

three out of my $4,000 a month because

52:48

of interest payments? Get bent. Your

52:50

story makes these loan companies look like,

52:53

frankly, total bastards. It's just a horrifying

52:55

example of what's gone wrong and maybe

52:57

your attorney can use an article that

52:59

gets written about you to force

53:01

the student loan providers to take this seriously and

53:03

respond immediately. So I would send a few brief

53:06

pitches to a handful of reporters who have written

53:08

about the student loan crisis before, see what

53:11

they say. They might also, by the way, have

53:13

ideas or resources for how to fight back because

53:15

they're plugged in and they know what's up. Right.

53:17

These journalists know this world inside and out. They

53:19

tend to be well connected. My last thought for

53:21

you is this. I know this debt is very

53:23

real. The hit to your bank account is very

53:26

real, but it's not as real as cancer. So

53:28

again, prioritize your health above all else, physical and

53:30

mental. Do not log in and check your Sallie

53:32

Mae balance every three days. That's going to drive

53:34

you nuts. Do what you have to do

53:36

and then take it away. Keep coming

53:39

back to what you need to do, what

53:41

matters most, which is obviously getting well and

53:43

staying alive. Again, I am deeply sorry you're

53:45

in this boat. It makes me incredibly angry.

53:47

This is the kind of story that really

53:49

gives urgency to voting and calling your congressman

53:51

and stuff like that. You've been dealt

53:53

a really crappy hand and

53:56

you don't deserve it. But

53:58

in a situation like this, you can You can only

54:00

do what you can do, and you keep showing up,

54:02

and you keep taking care of yourself. We're

54:05

sending you a huge, non-dischargeable hug, and

54:07

we are rooting for you every step

54:09

of the way. You know, if

54:11

this were me, your ass ain't getting paid

54:13

until I'm well. You better

54:15

hope I get well, because if I croak, you're never getting

54:17

a dime. These companies act like

54:19

getting cancer is the same as somebody who can't stop

54:22

shopping online for handbags or something. It's like, hey, you

54:24

should have budgeted for this. What are you talking about?

54:27

It's so bad that it's almost hard to believe there's

54:29

not somebody at Sallie Mae who's like, no, no, no,

54:31

my job is to decide if this

54:33

person should get a deferral or not, and

54:35

cancer is like medical stuff at the top

54:37

of the list. Almost feel like

54:39

it just has to be that way. I mean,

54:41

isn't this why people are up in arms about

54:44

this industry? I mean, I know nothing significant seems

54:46

to be happening, but like the rage against student

54:48

loan providers has never been higher. And you know,

54:50

the Biden administration has made a big thing out

54:52

of these student loan reforms and I know people

54:54

are critical of them and it's complicated and some

54:57

people think that's not the right approach. I don't

54:59

know enough about it to opine on

55:01

that, but I mean, I get it. I get why people

55:03

are trying to reach for solutions

55:05

wherever they can find them because people like this

55:07

are suffering because they don't have a simple option

55:10

to give you nine

55:12

months so that you can stay alive.

55:14

It's crazy. Yeah. This person

55:16

is not even asking for her loans to be forgiven. She

55:18

just is like, hey, can I maybe not pay this until

55:20

I get rid of cancer? Exactly. Because the

55:22

interest rate is making it so I can't pay for my chemotherapy. How

55:25

is that even remotely controversial? Like,

55:27

there should literally be a form

55:30

you file to make this possible.

55:32

It's unbelievable. You know, it's

55:34

more fun than navigating the Byzantine

55:36

bureaucracy of American healthcare, Gabriel. Enjoying

55:38

the fine products and services that support this show.

55:41

I got to say, Jordan, that bar is very

55:43

low. Oh, yeah.

55:45

It's unlike Sally Mae's interest rates.

55:48

We'll be right back. This

55:52

episode is sponsored in part by BetterHelp. You know,

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If you can't remember the name of the sponsor, you can't find the

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code. me an email, jordanatjordanharbinger.com. I

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am happy to surface the code for you.

58:03

It is that important that you

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support those who support the show. Now,

58:08

back to Feedback Friday. All

58:11

right, what's next? Hi Gabe,

58:13

and Dark Jordan. Hmm. So

58:16

when people address us like that, does

58:18

that mean they only want to hear

58:20

from Dark Jordan? No light, you know, legal

58:22

above board, appropriate Jordan advice? No, I think

58:24

it means they want the most psycho advice

58:26

you can possibly give them. Good. All right,

58:28

I'm here for it. Although actually, I don't

58:31

think that this really will apply to this

58:33

letter, so it's funny that he wrote that.

58:35

Bummer. But anyway, he writes, I recently invented,

58:37

for lack of a better term, an object

58:39

which doesn't serve much functional purpose, but is

58:41

really funny to behold. My

58:43

prototypes have been met with nothing but boisterous

58:46

laughter at how ridiculous and silly it is.

58:48

It's a for novelty purposes only kind of

58:50

thing that you would see at Spencer's. Spencer's

58:53

for anyone who doesn't know is a novelty store that

58:55

sells like gag gifts. Right, it's the place you go

58:58

when you forgot to buy somebody a gift and you

59:00

have to be at their party in like an hour.

59:02

Exactly, or you don't know them very well, or you

59:04

don't like them that much, so you buy them a,

59:06

I don't know, like a pen that shocks you or

59:08

a rubber chicken or something like that. So he

59:11

goes on, I could absolutely sell these

59:13

and make money, but this is a simple

59:15

object that could be easily copied. So I'd

59:17

like to have some level of legal protection,

59:20

though my faith in enforcing it is low.

59:23

I have a moral dilemma with this as well

59:25

because of the plastic involved in making the thing.

59:27

How do I approach an IP attorney with this

59:30

idea without looking insane? If they don't

59:32

laugh, is that a bad sign? Does the

59:34

world really need more plastic trash that

59:36

serves no functional purpose? Or

59:39

is being a funny product that brings

59:41

people joy purpose enough, even

59:43

if I know it'll end up in a landfill at some

59:45

point? Signed, the conflicted

59:47

creator wondering whether to cater

59:49

to appreciators when one

59:51

day my product will probably end up in a

59:54

crater. Good questions. First of

59:56

all, I do think it's very cool you invented a

59:58

product, even if it is like a- of the

1:00:01

in a shape for bachelor's at

1:00:03

parties or whatever. What do you call

1:00:05

that? A Skrildo? I don't know. I'm

1:00:07

always amazed when people invent something. It's

1:00:09

just so, it's interesting. It shows a

1:00:11

lot of initiative and creativity and

1:00:14

you're actually getting good feedback just in the form

1:00:16

of these laughs which is very much the point

1:00:18

and that's gotta feel good. And the fact

1:00:20

that you're confident you can sell these things and make some

1:00:22

money, I think that's brilliant, dude. I

1:00:24

mean, who knows? This could be a very real

1:00:26

side hustle. It could even become your main hustle

1:00:28

at some point. This is

1:00:31

how these things start, right? So yes, definitely

1:00:33

talk to an IP attorney about patenting your

1:00:35

product and or trademarking your brand. I

1:00:37

wouldn't worry about looking insane because of

1:00:40

the product itself. These attorneys

1:00:42

have helped clients with all kinds of

1:00:44

products. Yours might not even be the

1:00:46

craziest. Remember, somebody invented the pocket.

1:00:50

You're there to talk to them about a business

1:00:52

and money. You're paying them. They're gonna

1:00:54

be psyched for the work. They're not gonna judge

1:00:56

you for your silly product. And no, I don't

1:00:58

necessarily think it's a bad sign if they don't

1:01:01

laugh. God knows, lawyers, we're not exactly known for

1:01:03

our sense of humor and or personality at all,

1:01:05

right? I could see a competent IP attorney

1:01:07

being super dry and literal about all this and taking

1:01:09

good care of you. So it's not a deal breaker.

1:01:11

It's more like if you're gonna have to interact with

1:01:13

your lawyer a lot and talk about the ins and

1:01:16

outs of the product for hours over the course of

1:01:18

years, you might wanna work with somebody who has a

1:01:20

little bit of personality just because it's more enjoyable. Although

1:01:22

if your lawyer is gonna be an integral part of

1:01:24

the business and super involved in the launch of your company,

1:01:27

maybe them laughing is kind of a signal

1:01:29

of how much they appreciate your vision and

1:01:31

how invested they are in your ideas of

1:01:33

how much vision do you have for, well,

1:01:35

you know. On that level, maybe

1:01:38

look for lawyers who appreciate what you've invented. That's

1:01:40

always a plus. But I wouldn't write off a

1:01:42

good lawyer if he doesn't double over laughing at

1:01:44

your breast-shaped pillow or whatever, which

1:01:46

is a real thing, by the way, that

1:01:48

you can get at those novelty stores, which

1:01:50

I just looked up because I was curious.

1:01:53

Not because I own three of them in

1:01:55

different colors, but because they're funny.

1:01:57

No, no, no, no, we got it. Yeah, those

1:01:59

are good. favorite pillows when he stays over.

1:02:01

No, totally. Can't get a good night's rest

1:02:03

at Jordan's house without a polyester nipple in

1:02:05

my ear. Now, about the plastic

1:02:08

thing, I really do appreciate that you're being thoughtful

1:02:10

about that. I mean, we all should. There's definitely

1:02:12

something to be said for being conscientious about the

1:02:14

things we put out into the world. But my

1:02:16

feeling there is, look, if you

1:02:18

can do anything to minimize the amount of

1:02:21

plastic that this product requires, I would do

1:02:23

that. It's a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of

1:02:25

the problem but every bit helps, right? You're

1:02:27

clearly a clever guy. Maybe you can figure

1:02:29

out the minimum amount of plastic you

1:02:31

need to manufacture this thing and that'll help

1:02:34

you sleep at night. And I hear you

1:02:36

that this thing serves no functional purpose. But

1:02:38

in another way, it does. It fulfills the

1:02:40

function of making people laugh, of bringing

1:02:42

them together, of helping somebody say, I don't

1:02:45

know, hey, I love you but I absolutely didn't

1:02:48

think about what to get you for your birthday.

1:02:50

So here's a lobster bib with

1:02:52

Steve Buscemi's face on it or whatever. I don't

1:02:54

know what it is. You invented it. I have

1:02:56

no idea. I'm so curious what he made, Jordan.

1:02:58

I really do wonder. I don't know. I'm grasping

1:03:01

at straws. Oh, yeah. Indeed, penis-shaped straws. Yeah. Thrill

1:03:04

doughs, if you will. Exactly. Grasping at

1:03:06

straw doughs. New Feedback Friday catchphrase. So

1:03:08

does the world need more plastic trash

1:03:10

that serves no profound purpose? Probably not.

1:03:12

The world doesn't need a lot of

1:03:15

things. The last Avatar movie, I would

1:03:17

argue, among other things. But the waste that

1:03:19

your company is going to create, it's

1:03:21

kind of a drop in the ocean, isn't it? And I know

1:03:23

that mentality is kind of flawed. We all have to do our

1:03:25

part. But not putting your product

1:03:28

out there isn't going to stop landfills from

1:03:30

filling up with plastic. Not at this stage

1:03:32

of your company. You were a very small

1:03:34

operation at this point. And I think you

1:03:36

have more to gain by putting a really

1:03:38

cool thing out into the world and seeing

1:03:40

if there's a real business here than by

1:03:42

not doing it at all for environmental

1:03:44

reasons. At this stage, anyway. I

1:03:47

agree. I love his thoughtfulness, but he's literally

1:03:49

a guy shipping a couple hundred units of

1:03:51

a tiny dollar or something. Meanwhile, Coca-Cola is

1:03:53

selling tens and tens of billions of

1:03:55

bottles and cans every year. So it's like, what are

1:03:57

we talking about here? So I said, go for it,

1:03:59

man. And the world needs laughter too, more

1:04:01

than teeth-rotting soda, I'd argue. But definitely keep

1:04:04

being as thoughtful and responsible as you can

1:04:06

along the way. You can do both of

1:04:08

these. Maybe you could be

1:04:10

the world's first sustainable strildo, you

1:04:12

know? And good luck. Send us a couple

1:04:15

of sustainable bags full of your product when you can as well. I

1:04:17

would love to see what you're up to. I bet he would. Jordan

1:04:19

could use a new pocket. So, please

1:04:21

do send us. Mine has a lot of

1:04:23

miles on it, after all. Hope you all

1:04:26

enjoyed that. I thank everyone who wrote in

1:04:28

this week and everybody who listened. Thank you

1:04:30

so much. Don't forget to check out our

1:04:32

episode with Susan Casey on ocean stuff. All

1:04:34

things ocean, super interesting. And stay tuned this

1:04:36

Sunday, Skeptical Sunday, coming up on porn. Internet

1:04:38

porn specifically, but I don't know how specifically

1:04:40

you think. Is there any other kind of

1:04:42

porn these days? Probably not. The best things

1:04:44

that have happened in my life and business

1:04:46

have come through my network, the circle of

1:04:48

people that I know, like, and trust. And

1:04:51

I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself

1:04:53

in our six-minute networking course. The course

1:04:55

is free. It is not gross. You can

1:04:57

find it on the Think of It platform

1:04:59

at 6minutenetworking.com. The drills take a few minutes

1:05:01

a day. I wish I knew this stuff

1:05:03

20 years ago. Every time I

1:05:05

talk with people about this, it's like, oh, I know

1:05:07

you say it every time. I should do it. Just

1:05:10

dive in and do the first couple. Just

1:05:12

the first one or the second one will be life-changing enough

1:05:14

for you and it'll get you in there and it won't

1:05:16

take a ton of time. Dig the well before you get

1:05:18

thirsty. Build relationships before you

1:05:20

need them. 6minutenetworking.com.

1:05:22

See you on the subreddit.

1:05:25

Any of you are there discussing the episodes. Jordan Harbinger

1:05:27

is the name of the subreddit. If you don't know

1:05:29

what a subreddit is, never mind. But

1:05:31

definitely check out our newsletter. In

1:05:33

any case, jordanharbinger.com/news. Gabe and I

1:05:35

are experimenting with different formats there.

1:05:38

We dive into old episodes, deliver some wisdom from

1:05:40

those episodes that you can apply in your life

1:05:42

and it's once a week, not too much of

1:05:44

a lift. jordanharbinger.com/news.

1:05:47

Show notes and transcripts on the website,

1:05:49

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1:05:52

all at jordanharbinger.com slash

1:05:54

deals. Follow us on Twitter,

1:05:56

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1:05:59

Twitter. on LinkedIn? I don't

1:06:01

even know. Does it matter? No one

1:06:03

cares. This show is associated with Podcast

1:06:05

One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace

1:06:07

Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo

1:06:09

and of course Gabriel Mizrahi. Our

1:06:11

advice and opinions are our own and I'm a

1:06:13

lawyer but I'm not your lawyer. Sometimes my advice

1:06:15

is actually illegal. So do your own research before

1:06:17

implementing anything you hear on the show. And remember,

1:06:19

we rise by lifting others. Share the show with

1:06:21

those you love and if you found the episode

1:06:23

useful, please share it with somebody else who could

1:06:25

use the advice we gave here today. For example,

1:06:27

if you know somebody who is dealing with a

1:06:29

domestic abuse situation and they can't get the other

1:06:31

person out and they're banging their head against the

1:06:33

wall, I think Q1 from this

1:06:36

week's episode is definitely something you could share with them.

1:06:38

There's a lot of takeaways from that and I think

1:06:40

it would be very helpful for other people in

1:06:42

that situation. In the meantime, I hope you apply

1:06:44

what you hear on the show so you can

1:06:47

live what you learn and we'll see you

1:06:49

next time. If

1:06:52

you're looking for another episode of the Jordan Harbinger

1:06:55

show to sink your teeth into, here's a trailer

1:06:57

for another episode that I think you might enjoy.

1:07:26

In that situation, you can't respond with, oh, I'm

1:07:28

not looking at anything because then you're on the

1:07:30

back foot and they've got power. Or yeah, I'm

1:07:33

looking at you, what's your problem? Because either way,

1:07:35

you're going to get hit. But you can just

1:07:37

not play that game right from the outset. So

1:07:39

I should. The wall outside

1:07:41

my house isn't four foot high. So

1:07:43

his reaction to that is a bit of a

1:07:46

pause. What? The wall outside my

1:07:48

house isn't four foot high. When I lived in Spain,

1:07:50

the walls there were quite high, but here they're

1:07:53

tiny. I mean, they're tiny.

1:07:56

So he then he just went off and

1:07:59

started. crying his girlfriend walked off and

1:08:02

he sat down by the side of the road I sat

1:08:04

down next to him and started asking

1:08:07

about what had gone wrong that night I

1:08:09

think his girlfriend had bottled somebody they've been some fight and

1:08:11

weirdly that I'm giving him advice I was talking to a

1:08:13

friend of mine about this thing and he um there's

1:08:16

an artist needs to walk home from his studio

1:08:18

late at night to a rough bit of London

1:08:20

and there were always these kind of like gangs

1:08:22

on one side of the road so he'd always

1:08:24

cross over away from them of course they'd always

1:08:26

see that and it's always this horrible uncomfortable intimidating

1:08:28

thing so we spoke about it

1:08:31

and then the next night he crossed over the road

1:08:33

to them and said

1:08:35

good evening as he walked past them and

1:08:37

of course they left him alone because he

1:08:39

just seemed like a strange yeah I don't

1:08:41

think he's crazy he's just weird yeah who

1:08:43

wants to see a magic trick for an

1:08:45

inside look at the levers

1:08:49

in our own brain alongside Darren Brown

1:08:51

one of the world's most legendary illusionists

1:08:54

and mentalists check out episode

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150 of the Jordan Harbinger show

1:09:00

this episode is sponsored in part by Wired

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