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1:27

up next on the Jordan Harbinger Show. I

1:30

have to be absolutely laser focused

1:33

on my enemy. Although I really do care about

1:35

my wife and my kids. I

1:38

can't be thinking about the birthday party I

1:40

just missed. I have to have two brains,

1:42

my Mosella undercover brain and my Maser brain.

1:44

Both of them have to be functioning at

1:47

the same time because everything that I do

1:49

on behalf of Mosella has to be calculated

1:51

by Maser. I have to

1:53

move conversations in directions where I'm

1:55

getting actionable intelligence. Welcome

2:02

to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On

2:04

the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the

2:07

stories, secrets and skills of the world's

2:09

most fascinating people and turn their wisdom

2:11

into practical advice that you can use

2:13

to impact your own life and those

2:16

around you. Our mission is to help

2:18

you become a better informed, more critical

2:20

thinker through long-form conversations with a variety

2:22

of amazing folks from spies to CEOs,

2:25

athletes, authors, thinkers, performers, even the occasional

2:27

organized crime figure, cold case homicide investigator,

2:29

hacker, real-life pirate or special operator, tech

2:32

mogul or music luminary and if you're

2:34

new to the show or you want

2:36

to tell your friends about it, I

2:38

suggest our episode Starter Packs. These are

2:40

collections of our favorite episodes on persuasion

2:42

and negotiation, psychology and geopolitics, disinformation and

2:44

cyber warfare, AI, crime and cults and

2:46

more. That'll help new listeners get a

2:48

taste of everything we do here on

2:51

the show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com/start or search

2:53

for us in your Spotify app to

2:55

get started. My guest today, Robert Mazer

2:57

has laundered money for Pablo Escobar and

2:59

other drug cartels. He's worked for the

3:01

mob, crooked businessmen and worse. Unfortunately for

3:03

most of his clients, Robert

3:05

Mazer was a Fed. Today we'll dive deep

3:07

into the murky world of money laundering and

3:10

organized crime. I wanted to know how this

3:12

works. Who's involved? How money is laundered in

3:14

the first place? Of course, I'm asking for

3:17

science here, folks. And how Robert helped the

3:19

Feds take down massive international crime rings from

3:21

the inside. He's had a couple of close

3:23

calls and we are very lucky that he's

3:26

still here with us today. All right, here

3:28

we go with Robert Mazer. You're

3:30

listening to the Jordan Harbinger show with our

3:32

guest, Robert Mazer. We'll be right back. Thank

3:39

you for doing the show today. I know at some

3:41

level media is obviously somewhat dangerous for you.

3:43

I guess at some levels, I appreciate the

3:46

trust first and foremost. Well, thanks. Yeah,

3:48

there is a little bit of a security

3:51

risk because I've continued, especially now that

3:53

there's a second book and we're working

3:55

on a second movie. It's like taking

3:57

a scab off of an old wound.

4:00

people who aren't very happy with me. Not

4:02

only that, but I wasn't going to jump into that

4:04

part so quick. But yeah, you've been a part

4:07

of some movies about this. I mean, one with Bryan

4:09

Cranston, The Infiltrator, which like, you can't really beat that.

4:11

I mean, he's an awesome actor. I hope you got

4:14

to meet him and... Very much so. But

4:16

now there's a second movie. So like you

4:18

said, you're picking at the scab off the

4:20

old wound for the cartel guys that you

4:22

busted. But also, when you're filming a movie

4:24

and doing meetings and stuff, there's like 40

4:27

people in a room and you got calendar invites

4:29

and it's like, we're going to be at this

4:32

restaurant having a party. And it's like, that's kind

4:34

of the opposite of showing

4:36

up remotely on a podcast from a darkened room where

4:38

no one can see your face, right? That is lots

4:40

of people know when and where you are going to

4:43

be with tons of advanced notice. And

4:45

that's like not ideal. Well, a lot of them didn't know

4:47

that I was actually going to be on set. We

4:50

kind of kept that a little quiet. And

4:52

some of our... It's amazing what they can

4:54

do with when they're making films. A lot of

4:56

our shoots that were shown to

4:58

be allegedly in New York and parts of

5:00

the Northeast were actually shot in

5:02

London, outside of London, at

5:05

a place that used to be

5:07

a factory making nuclear weapons. It

5:11

was pretty remote and the security there

5:13

was fairly good. So I didn't make

5:15

it very well known and I certainly

5:17

didn't get involved in acting in

5:20

the film. So I was behind the

5:23

scenes and I was constantly in the ear of

5:25

Brian and other actors to

5:27

the chagrin of the producer trying to explain

5:29

to him why I thought certain lines were

5:32

flat and why I thought other stuff really

5:34

flew. And thankfully, I got

5:37

a lot of ear from Brian and

5:39

he did actually do a lot of the

5:41

stuff that I had suggested. So we

5:44

have a great working relationship. I

5:46

enjoy speaking with him. That's why I brought the

5:48

second project to him initially. And

5:50

he's very eager to do it. We're moving forward

5:52

with the help of Brad Furman, a

5:54

great director. We're moving forward with

5:56

a screenplay that we're trying to get perfected

5:59

and go for there. That's amazing. Again, I

6:01

was going to talk about the movie stuff later

6:03

on in our conversation, but I find it quite

6:06

funny, the image of like, oh, we'll let

6:08

you be on set because it's a movie

6:10

that's about you and why not. And then

6:12

you're suddenly like, let me talk to the

6:14

lead man about this. And I can just

6:16

see some producer being like, can we uninvite

6:18

this guy? He's like really harsh in my

6:20

vibe right now. Who invited

6:22

this guy? Well, yeah, because producers are all

6:24

about time, right? Because time is money. So

6:27

if I'm talking to one of the

6:29

actors, they decided the last minute, I mean, we

6:31

know we're going to shoot that day. We get

6:33

the day sheet. I would try

6:35

to catch them a little bit earlier, but

6:37

when they change what they're going to say

6:39

or do, yeah, it could slow things down.

6:41

And there's a bondsman there who's making sure

6:44

that you're staying on time. And yeah, so

6:46

I was a producer's nightmare. Yeah. They're like,

6:48

we can't really uninvite the guy, but how

6:50

do we mention to him sort of, is

6:52

there like a polite way where we can

6:54

say, stop talking to Brian

6:56

Cranston in the middle of shooting? I don't

6:58

know. But obviously, you wouldn't have done it

7:00

if you didn't have a good reason to,

7:03

right? You're not just trying to get

7:05

FaceTime with the lead man, you're trying to make the

7:07

movie better. So I suppose there's some tension there that

7:09

the juice is worth the squeeze at some level. Yeah.

7:12

I mean, I'll give you an example, a quick one.

7:14

In The Infiltrator, they ended the film fictionally where

7:16

the wedding actually occurred instead of it in

7:19

reality went down in a bachelor party the

7:21

day before. The main bad

7:23

guy from Colombia, Roberto El

7:25

Caino, was in the film, a fugitive

7:28

at that stage, and showed

7:30

up at the wedding, allegedly having been

7:32

able to use another name and staying

7:34

under the radar. And so Brian said

7:36

to me, what would

7:38

you have said to Roberto if he showed up

7:40

at the wedding? And I said, I

7:42

think I would have said something along the lines of, it's

7:45

wonderful to see you, but there's a part of me that wishes

7:47

you weren't here. Because we had developed a

7:49

friendship and he said, oh, that's

7:51

it, we're going to use that. And that's exactly the

7:54

line that they wound up using during it. So I

7:56

know it's really important for me to be very

7:59

selective in... the picking of times

8:01

where I might say that type of stuff. And I

8:03

would be emailing back and forth with

8:05

the director the night before when I got that

8:07

day sheet and giving him some of my thoughts.

8:10

So a lot of times he would actually

8:12

deliver that. And believe me, there were a

8:14

lot of talented people there. So I only

8:16

had a minimal effect on what

8:18

was actually said on the screen. So

8:20

backing up the truck, now that

8:22

people are thoroughly confused, all right, he's in a movie,

8:24

something, something with Bryan Cranston. What does the guy actually

8:27

do? I've covered some of this in the intro, of

8:29

course, but you started working initially

8:31

with, what, U.S. Customs chasing

8:33

money launderers for Pablo Escobar? Actually

8:36

I started with what was then

8:38

called the Criminal Investigation Division of

8:40

the IRS. In that case,

8:42

I wound up working with

8:44

other agencies on drug cases, handling

8:47

kind of the financial side of it.

8:49

It's typical, I mean, that agency is

8:51

the agency that did the paper trail

8:53

that put Al Capone away for income

8:55

tax evasion. So I was really excited

8:57

to get involved with that agency. I

9:00

had an accounting background, a business

9:02

administration finance major, and I wound up

9:04

getting involved in the Criminal Investigation Division

9:07

of IRS doing forensic accounting work for

9:09

law enforcement. Then I decided

9:11

when we were working with Customs that

9:13

it was probably better for me to

9:15

move over to Customs as a special

9:18

agent in comparison to other

9:20

agencies. Customs was moving pretty

9:22

fast. I mean, for example, at

9:24

IRS it might take three levels of review

9:26

on an affidavit for a search warrant before

9:29

I could get the search warrant approved.

9:31

You've got to make sure that your

9:33

probable cause is fresh. So at times

9:35

you would almost lose the freshness of

9:37

the probable cause through all the bureaucratic

9:39

layers. I'm talking to the Customs guy

9:41

and I said, well, what do you guys do? He goes,

9:43

well, I write the affidavit, I pick up the phone, I

9:45

call the magistrate, I go to the magistrate's house, he reads

9:48

the affidavit, he goes, okay, that's good, and he gives me

9:50

the search warrant. I said, I think I need to work

9:52

for your agency, and that's what brought me there. At IRS

9:54

I was trained as an undercover agent as well and did

9:56

undercover, but when I went to the IRS, I was very

9:59

excited to work The customs after getting

10:01

through all the basic training say I

10:03

was also train their. As a long

10:05

term undercover agent. How do you get

10:07

started in an undercover operation? I know you

10:09

eventually went to the Da of course and

10:11

move it around a bit. that how you

10:14

get started in an undercover operation like as

10:16

he can't just walk into a bar in

10:18

met again with a Hawaiian shirt on and

10:20

belies sir. Would like to meet this escobar

10:22

fella t V or and about or that

10:24

son. You gotta have. So. Many

10:26

connections and backstopping. and where do you

10:28

even begin? Yeah, well, it's a much

10:31

more sophisticated plan and a lot of

10:33

people would recognize it starts with. first

10:35

of all, you gotta have the personnel

10:37

who were able to do that type

10:39

of work And that starts with volunteering.

10:41

Yeah, because they can make you work

10:43

long term undercover. So I volunteered because

10:45

I knew I was on a task

10:47

force that was trying to identify and

10:49

prosecute them most significant money launderers for

10:51

the many in Cartel. And. We

10:54

were having I would say. Average.

10:56

Success at best? Not even that really. and I

10:58

decided that while we decided that we need a

11:00

new tool in our to lox and that was

11:02

going to be the long term undercover technique. So.

11:05

We needed somebody who was going to

11:07

be trained as a long term undercover

11:09

agents who had the capacity them the

11:11

ability to be able to convincingly pose

11:14

as a money launderer. My backgrounds very

11:16

different from most people who are law

11:18

enforcement officers. I'm not a criminal justice

11:20

major. I was of business administration,

11:22

finance major, did a lot of a county,

11:24

worked in a bank, in a brokerage firm.

11:27

I. Know books and records. Having worked for the

11:29

I Arrest. And so in my

11:31

view, I felt as though that my background.

11:33

Tended. To give me an opportunity to

11:35

be able to more convincingly pose as

11:37

a corrupt businessman. And and so I

11:39

went through the undercover training. Which.

11:42

Is done not just by trainers

11:44

former long term undercover agents. My

11:47

mentor at that training was a guy that him

11:49

a job The Stone. That. The book

11:51

in the movie Donnie Brasco is named Average

11:53

Joe and I knew our families that have

11:55

become. Good. Friends I talked to

11:57

him often. He. Made a big difference

12:00

in in my wife and my understanding of. About

12:02

the effective ways of doing long term undercover.

12:04

And so once you get through of all

12:06

that now you need to. Actually, if you're

12:09

going to go after an organization. You've.

12:11

Gotta go through a written proposal. And.

12:13

Overview of the project and assessment with our

12:15

business plan. It's like a business plan as

12:17

exactly what it is. You gotta talk about

12:19

your resources. What? You're gonna need to

12:22

sit in that particular case as I wrote

12:24

the book. If I had asked for more

12:26

the i think of cut off point was

12:28

thirty thousand dollars of I'd ask for more

12:30

than thirty thousand dollars and. Operating.

12:32

Funds then they plan had to

12:34

be approved in Washington and I

12:36

knew letting this get to the

12:38

Washington level was not gonna be.

12:41

It's. Least in my view is not going to

12:43

be to my advantage because I really felt as

12:45

though we needed to stays low under the radar

12:47

screen as we possibly could. So I ask for

12:49

like. Twenty. Nine thousand nine hundred

12:51

bucks. And that and advantages once you

12:53

get approved. this is called an Attorney

12:55

General's exemption. The Attorney general his or

12:57

herself has to actually approves of written

12:59

plan along with certain agency heads and

13:02

of that's because you're going to be

13:04

committing a crime and crime here to

13:06

commit his money laundering. And so what.

13:08

We did. We. Laid out the plan,

13:10

we got the approval and under that

13:12

proposal you are allowed to use the

13:14

profits from the undercover operation to defray

13:16

the cost of the undercover operative with

13:18

didn't take as long. Before. Who

13:20

are making millions of dollars? and we

13:22

had more than enough money? Without.

13:24

Using taxpayer funds to really

13:27

sophisticate the operation. A. T

13:29

to the operation were. Three.

13:31

Different informants. To. Were

13:34

informants of mine who were associated with one

13:36

of the. New. York Italian, American,

13:38

organized crime families in one of them.

13:40

Was. An informant from Columbia who I

13:42

import export business. So. With those informants,

13:45

we were able to do a lot. Tonight wasn't

13:47

for a sec. I just think it's so funny

13:49

because of course. What? People are are hearing

13:51

right now and I know where we're probably going.

13:53

A little disastrous. Emphasize: I want to reiterate the

13:55

hits here that you ask where the smaller amount

13:57

of money so doesn't have to go all the

13:59

way. The Bhutan. Knowing also we're

14:01

going to be committing a crime. in the

14:04

entire point of this crime is to generate

14:06

a ton of cash. illicit cast so you

14:08

could have asked for like a dollar or

14:10

face or whatever you needed to buy like

14:13

the calculator and folio that you need to

14:15

desert laundering money and some other sort of

14:17

expenses. but like you're really people who don't

14:20

know what money laundering Israel will get to

14:22

that the second. But if you're posing undercover

14:24

as a drug dealer and your crime that

14:26

you're going to be committing as you can

14:29

be swinging cocaine, you're gonna have profits. From

14:31

that cocaine the you can then put back into your. Undercover.

14:34

Illicit business. Money. Laundering

14:36

is pure money. Over there are Department

14:38

of Justice guidelines you can't swing cocaine.

14:40

Oh, I see that's gotta be approved

14:42

at the highest level I would imagine

14:44

in order for you to be able

14:46

do that. And also please keep in

14:48

mind also that money laundering facilitates crime

14:50

And so we were authorized by the

14:52

Attorney General. To actually commit that

14:54

money laundering offense. But we need in

14:56

and we need to start up money

14:58

and the way the operation worked. My

15:00

whole theory is that. You. Don't wanna

15:03

be knocking on somebody is door. And.

15:05

Trying, as you said in the beginning, hey, we're said

15:07

Pablo Escobar. Do not want to meet him unless I

15:09

can launder money. Know you don't do that way. My.

15:12

Whole Theory. Kind. Of goes back

15:14

to up high school with you wanna date

15:16

the cheerleader? the captain of the cheerleaders. You

15:18

don't go up and ask her you've gotta

15:20

have somebody put that idea in the cheerleaders

15:22

head. So in this instance, what we did.

15:25

My. Partner amazing undercover agent, better undercover

15:27

agents and me more of a street

15:29

guy. ran as my manager of my

15:31

street operations and we he walks in

15:34

a room. I had to

15:36

show like documents and this and the other thing

15:38

and convince people i was when I was. This

15:40

guy walks in a room and they go like

15:42

I don't know where crime he commits but he's

15:44

definitely a criminal muslims so see works. With.

15:47

Them. With. The understanding and their

15:49

mind that my boss is the one who's helping

15:51

me to open the accounts and get some of

15:53

this money laundered. But. He not. he never

15:56

wants to meet you. He's. Not going to

15:58

do big money, But. Let me tell. Your

16:00

brother. If you could ever meet him

16:02

and you could convince him otherwise, the

16:04

river of money that could be laundered

16:06

would be outrageous. But he works for

16:08

his own family, meeting an organized crime

16:10

family, and that's really his main job.

16:13

So. He is not. Really

16:15

wanting to expose himself. So.

16:18

After six months they were banging on door.

16:20

Yeah, they wanted to meet me in the

16:22

worst way. And. That's how we really were

16:24

able to get them to get us moving. And.

16:26

Then if people didn't wanna do it the way

16:29

I wanted it done. Because. Like silly

16:31

undercover agents Seal is though they've got a please

16:33

the bad guys which is the worst thing they

16:35

can ever do. And and my

16:37

theory was okay. I'm in a deal

16:39

with this first level guy and if

16:41

I can get him to sell to

16:43

his. Clients. Which are

16:46

the major cartels leaders. Is.

16:48

He can't convince them. That.

16:50

I need to be more involved in managing your

16:52

asset so I don't get caught. I kids as

16:55

take money and launder it and send it back.

16:57

If he can't get him the do that than

16:59

I'm not going to work for with them anymore.

17:01

And. Eventually I told the guy I said listen. I'm

17:04

hearing you can convince him that's okay.

17:06

You. Can put us face to face. Let.

17:08

Me convinced them myself as I fail will

17:10

continue to work. But. I want that

17:13

opportunity to be able to convince him and that's

17:15

how I met the bigger guys. That makes a

17:17

lot of sense. I'm stuck on one thing you'd

17:19

better before about not being allowed are selling cocaine

17:21

or whatever. I know I've interviewed some monsters on

17:23

a cell before in the i always make them

17:25

feel me their core documents. And they

17:28

always get permission from all will. I guess

17:30

it is what you said right? They get

17:32

permission from the Department of Justice to do

17:34

to basically commit certain crimes as part of

17:36

their. Agreement to be an informant

17:38

and just a lot of other times

17:40

it's like racketeering, But I remember on

17:42

one set of documents it was like

17:44

associated with these sales of illicit substances

17:46

or something like that and I assumed

17:48

that men drug dealing. Yeah. Know

17:51

you you can do by busts and

17:53

you can do buys and you can

17:55

sell. Coke in smaller quantities

17:57

that is approved to be done.

18:00

And. A lot of times this is the way really does work

18:02

in the big world. And that is that

18:04

Somebody says okay, well. I'll give you a

18:06

sample. So. The you can test it

18:08

and you know that big deal. lead say is gonna

18:10

be a thousand kilos. Maybe they'll

18:12

take him, let him cut into a key

18:14

low and take so many grams of them.

18:17

but they're not going out. On.

18:19

A regular basis and with in the guidelines

18:21

they're not going to allow a lot of

18:23

dope to move Now in in our case,

18:26

I. Must admit that there was of time

18:28

in Detroit. When. I thought it was

18:30

the stupidest thing that could have ever and

18:32

done at it was one hundred nine kilos.

18:35

They let that walk. Wow that was ridiculous.

18:37

Is they sold it to was drug traffickers

18:39

from the Middle East. I think they were

18:41

Iraqis but I haven't properly identified. and the

18:43

book the infiltrator. That was a

18:45

decision that was made on the ground. A

18:47

D A went crazy over because customs should

18:50

not have made that. They tried to claim

18:52

that they did that because they didn't want

18:54

to compromise the undercover operation. but that's ridiculous.

18:56

That's crazy. Yeah, I so I'm from, I'm

18:58

from Detroit and there's a lot of Iraqis

19:00

there. But a lot of I'm a christian

19:02

and Catholic and there's a work they were

19:05

christians. Yeah, So if they're christian or potentially

19:07

catholic, there's a group that no one has

19:09

ever heard of outside of Michigan. Apparently in

19:11

Iraq it's called Tell D and of Your

19:13

to this death. Yeah, they worked. Out in

19:15

okay yeah I identified him in the book

19:17

their tell the since you know you grew

19:19

up with these guys are all over his

19:21

like he their your school and and you

19:23

know your gym and like a lot of

19:25

a mark of course normal upstanding citizens of

19:27

the United States. I want to highlight that

19:29

like absolutely absolutely It is like Italians and

19:31

you know one the million or so or

19:34

in the organized crime side you want to

19:36

highlight that because I hate You know you

19:38

gotta be careful what you pay people with

19:40

a brush like this, a warthog and that

19:42

organized crime but it makes sense that they

19:44

are dealing with county. And because there's like

19:46

a large organized criminal contingent of guardians,

19:48

which no one has heard of, but

19:50

specifically in. Detroit area Dearborn, Michigan

19:53

where I grew up using the F

19:55

and and a Coke was actually being

19:57

driven up from Ah Miami on a

19:59

team. There's. I've. Been to Detroit

20:01

but a lotta times the Dominion cartel.

20:04

They. Were closely with the Canadian

20:06

Italian organized crime. And. Canadian,

20:08

Italian, organized crime and the biker gangs. Control.

20:11

Virtually every port in Canada,

20:13

including those a better in

20:15

north of Detroit. And so

20:18

a lot of the coke actually comes in

20:20

from Canada and comes from us down to

20:22

south and to Detroit. What? Organized

20:24

Crime. As Encana, you mentioned bikers. That

20:26

makes sense. I guess when you think

20:28

of Canada, you don't think of organized

20:31

crime. But they're certainly. there are groups

20:33

of major major organized crime at Canadian

20:35

Italian Organized Crime. Just like there's American

20:37

Italian organized crime, they work very, very

20:39

closely with the Hell's Angels in controlling

20:41

the ports in Canada. It's. Common.

20:44

Knowledge your listeners to just put in. Canadian.

20:47

Organized crime, bikers, Ports.

20:49

And then they'll get all kinds of information about.

20:51

It. I. Have to do. I love

20:53

to do so by Canadian organized crime

20:55

because it he never put those words

20:58

together. It's is not a thing. The

21:00

I Testify is an expert witness in

21:02

Canada against three major Italian i'm Canadian

21:04

organized crime figures that they had these

21:06

massive operations. Masses. Scary I guess.

21:08

had self still alive and well. So how

21:10

do you build a background year of your

21:12

undercover as a drug dealer? You pretend to

21:14

be a dealer, You learn about drugs, maybe

21:16

some other guys vouch for you, but your

21:18

undercover as a money launderer. So what do

21:20

you need? Unique like I'm imagining. You basically

21:22

have to build an office and get a

21:24

bunch of tax returns or financial documents and

21:26

you gotta have a client's he got of

21:28

a fake company that does not as easy

21:30

as as the unlike Yeah I know this

21:33

guy who sells heroin. Yeah. I

21:35

realize that I we couldn't do this in the

21:37

way that sometimes law enforcement traditionally does it dell

21:39

him. As you say, open up a business and

21:41

it's kind of like put the lights someone a

21:44

bad guys are in town said the lights off

21:46

later. You can do that. Yeah, so. I.

21:48

Was blessed with I thought. It

21:50

was an advantage that I had a friendship. With.

21:52

Leadership, that customs. But then in addition to

21:54

that, I had worked with them already while

21:56

I was with I Arrest, so they knew

21:59

that I was. Serious about what it

22:01

is that I wanted to do and they gave

22:03

me eighteen months. Before. I even

22:05

came on stage to put my

22:07

backstop together while and my theory

22:09

was that I needed to be

22:11

embedded in real businesses. So.

22:14

With. The help of those three informants as

22:16

well as. What? I would consider to

22:19

be a concerned citizen who had. Other

22:21

businesses I was embedded in our a

22:23

Real Investment Company and mortgage brokerage business.

22:26

We had a jewelry chain with thirty

22:28

locations on the East coast, and air

22:30

charter service with a private jet, even

22:32

a brokerage firm with a seat on

22:35

the New York Stock Exchange. So while

22:37

when I wouldn't entertain. Targets.

22:40

They could come back anytime they want

22:42

to do. All those businesses were operating

22:44

twenty four seven and I was involved

22:46

in them. It wasn't uncommon for me.

22:48

Let's say they will might come to

22:50

Florida. I had a guy who was

22:52

at one time. A bodyguard

22:54

for a couple. I prosecuted

22:56

him. Most. City informants that I

22:59

had throughout my lawn for spent career people

23:01

I prosecuted. They knew. That

23:03

I would treat them fairly. it wasn't person

23:06

when all we put cases together against them

23:08

and I tried my best to put the

23:10

biggest heaviest sentence against them that I possibly

23:12

could. and I also made a very clear

23:14

to them listen. To. Your tongue is

23:16

the key to getting your out yourself

23:18

at even if you decide that you

23:21

want to provide honest, substantial assistance and

23:23

you want to help this country to

23:25

be able to make bigger cases. Than.

23:28

Wow. Work with you. We're not getting screwed. If we're

23:30

going to do the real thing, The. Way that

23:32

we're supposed to do it. And this one

23:34

particular guy decided to do it. He

23:36

went into the witness protection program. He

23:39

did five years in prison. He.

23:41

Came back out. And he

23:43

wasn't really targeted because his

23:45

boss who he was working

23:47

with wound up. Committing. The

23:49

cardinal Sin one. He. Was move in. A lot

23:51

of coke. That. His bosses didn't know

23:53

about and number two, he was using

23:55

A He was using it and that's

23:57

a cardinal sin so nobody teams of.

24:00

Really trying to wipe my Cia?

24:02

my informant. And. Eventually.

24:05

I. Needed a house. When. Bad guys

24:07

came in town so instead of. using.

24:09

The of three hundred and fifty bucks a month

24:11

that they'd probably give me for a one bedroom

24:14

studio, right? I talked to this guy and I

24:16

just said a listen. This. Is what

24:18

we need to do. You're going to be my cousin. You're.

24:20

Going to be my bodyguard. And. One.

24:23

Thing I'm telling you right now. If.

24:25

You do any contact with any

24:28

of these people. And.

24:30

I don't know about it and it's not

24:32

authorized, I promise you. We. Will find

24:34

a way to prostitute you again because that's

24:36

a big no no. Informants are not allowed

24:38

to do that type of the you gotta

24:40

stay on script and As or me stay

24:42

on script. This is what I'm looking

24:44

for. Let's take pictures with me and your family.

24:46

i'm your cousin will have those that are movie

24:49

able put around the house. My story to these

24:51

guys get a be that. This. Is

24:53

my house. But. My cousin stays

24:55

there with his family when I'm not around on

24:57

not around most of the time. So.

25:00

He would leave and go into a hotel. If

25:02

bad guys game in town for two weeks he'd

25:04

leave. I had the house. It was a nice

25:07

house. It was the type of. Situation.

25:09

I mean like been a you went to the bedroom and you

25:12

open a mess. the closet, And there was

25:14

a three foot walking say severe and

25:16

this guy enabled me through other contacts

25:18

to be involved in the brokerage firm

25:21

as a man adviser to the brokerage

25:23

firm, so it wouldn't be uncommon for

25:25

the bad guys the come in town

25:28

I'd entertain him in Florida. We.

25:30

Get on the private jet we'd fly at the

25:32

Teterboro. There be a limo at the base of

25:34

the stairs when we got off. Get.

25:36

In a limo, go down a Wall Street.

25:39

we'd go into the brokerage firm I talked

25:41

to do about. New is what we did

25:43

at that time before nine eleven we because

25:45

we had a seat. I. Could take him

25:47

on this on the floor of the stock. Oh wow

25:49

So I took on the floor the stock exchange. And

25:52

he knows everybody scream and and they're doing what

25:54

they're doing and I could explain to them a

25:56

little bit about one's going on at night. there

25:58

might be something going on. On Wall

26:00

Street like for an Ip? oh anna

26:02

an initial public offering where the there

26:05

would be a meeting where investors would

26:07

be there and stuff and on sometimes

26:09

I'd take them. To something like

26:11

that. But most importantly I was in social

26:13

clubs that you either had to be a

26:15

politician or or a gangster or both to

26:17

be able to be a member the know.

26:19

so I would be able to take him

26:21

to the social club. This one

26:23

guy roberta, well chi know who was the most important

26:26

guy for me to get close to. Roberta

26:28

was a jeweler had a high end jewelry

26:30

store. Had that in L A. He.

26:33

Had an import export business and he export

26:35

and seafood. You could imagine what that was

26:37

used for. Yeah. And. He was

26:39

also a real estate developer. And a

26:41

fight promoter of core and goes without saying that

26:43

he was it about having their verify that might

26:45

lie that at what is up with as is

26:47

a whole shell that what is up with boxing

26:49

and illicit. Money. Like it's as

26:51

if there's so much of this. yeah, from

26:53

the kinda hands tis. I mean this is

26:56

all over and like you can't separate those

26:58

two things that sport is wrapped in corruption.

27:00

Yeah. For those who read the infiltrator you'll

27:02

they'll find out that one of the wanderings

27:05

that we did. Was. To finance

27:07

a World Championship fight, it was

27:09

the. Super. Flyweight: The.

27:12

Champion from Mexico Vegas the champion

27:14

from Columbia. And it was at

27:16

the A Jackie Gleason Arena way it was.

27:18

Really? Weird. I mean I came in

27:20

with Roberto because he was one of the

27:23

promoters of the fight we use the drug

27:25

money to. actually we put it through my

27:27

my mortgage company made it look like alone.

27:30

And that was actually used to wear pay for

27:32

some of the cost of the fight. Most of

27:34

their money that they were making back then was

27:36

cable probably is now to where they were making

27:38

money from the cable but there were a lot

27:40

of people are a couple thousand people there are

27:42

there fight. Oh from like the pay per view

27:44

table Yeah yeah Peter Mackay I was like the

27:46

Mafia cells cable. that makes so much sense Now

27:48

it was frightening that of us. Now. Okay,

27:51

that makes more sense, but we have a stand

27:53

and we're being. I'm right there at ringside. Everytime

27:55

you watch if I do is I always get

27:57

kind of interested in who those people years. Right

28:00

in their first row. Yeah A When I get

28:02

reburial, okay know who's one of the major distributors

28:04

for the many in Cartel? Sitting. Next

28:06

to be any other side I got this Cuban. Mobsters,

28:09

Is a distributor forum. And

28:11

were sitting there watching. The.

28:14

Action In and Know. It was kind

28:16

of surreal, but. Now. That was what

28:18

my life was back then. Yeah, my cat.

28:20

that must have been. I really feel like

28:22

this would have. Been such

28:24

a. Fine job the has

28:26

In many ways I mean stressful, but like

28:28

when you're in your old are you at

28:30

this time twenties thirties? I was in my

28:32

thirties or during this operation or was from

28:34

thirty six to thirty eight. Okay, you're just

28:36

unfortunately at the point where you realize you

28:38

can probably die in that this isn't a

28:40

good idea. Overtime rate as I could be

28:42

great if you're twenty years near do unless

28:44

you're like I'm riding and private jets front

28:46

seat. At. A boxing match. I've got

28:49

all these crazy mafia guy friends only. I'm

28:51

not going to prison because I'm the one

28:53

putting them in prison and we can do

28:55

whatever we want a lot of ways. But

28:57

you have thirty six. Thirty days are certain

28:59

to be like. these guys could just bury

29:01

me out here and no one would ever

29:04

find me. And maybe I have a family

29:06

at this point, right? So oh, I did.

29:08

Many. Oh my. children were nine and eleven.

29:10

Oh man. my wife and I had been

29:12

at that stage. We'd been married thirteen years

29:14

isn't But you know you talk about putting

29:16

a young kid. Out there. Twenty six,

29:18

Twenty seven years old. That's the worst idea.

29:20

Worst idea in the world. You've gotta have

29:23

somebody who's gonna be routed, who has. Samuel.

29:25

Eight who. If you took a

29:27

new hire. And. Freshly.

29:30

Married. Move. On to a city where

29:32

he doesn't have family. His. Wife's gotta

29:34

stay home alone. And he's flying

29:36

all over the world. First. Of

29:38

all, you're headed for a divorce, there's no doubt

29:40

in mind on that. Yeah, and we're not going

29:43

to have somebody who's grounded who's gonna be thinking

29:45

operational eight as much as they really should be.

29:47

Where. I. Knew and this is

29:50

something that every single undercover agent I

29:52

stress to them. they have to remember.

29:54

The. Bad Guys smarter than you. Don't ever

29:57

forget that. Bad. Guy smarter than you.

29:59

they're looking for. Any kind of little

30:01

tiny sign. That. They can possibly

30:03

see. And. If they pick up on it. You're.

30:05

Dead. And. So. Although.

30:08

People go like wow you were in Paris

30:10

and go into these great hotels and restaurants

30:12

and a lot of stuff I am wasn't

30:14

that exciting? A good no no no what?

30:16

What? Really got me.

30:19

And what I. Don't. Think as a

30:21

good idea. But. I confess to

30:23

other undercover agents. Was. My

30:25

motivation and can be your demise.

30:28

Is. That information became my heroine.

30:31

I had to get the next

30:33

big pieces information. And the

30:35

risk had to be higher. Than.

30:38

The last risk or I

30:40

wasn't accomplishing my mission. In.

30:42

I was in the military, but I was never in a

30:44

battle where somebody was shooting at me. I. Gotta

30:46

think that it's very similar to being on

30:48

a battlefield where you have to recognize that.

30:51

I. Have to be absolutely laser. Focused.

30:54

On my enemy. And although I

30:56

really do care about my wife and my

30:58

kids, I. Can't be sick it about

31:00

that I keep you. Think about the birthday

31:02

party I just miss. I can't be thinking

31:04

about that at all. I have to have

31:06

to brains mine who Salah Undercover brain and

31:08

my Mazer brain. Both of them have to

31:10

be functioning at the same time because everything

31:12

that I do on behalf of the seller

31:14

has to be calculated by Mazer. I.

31:17

Have to move conversations in directions where

31:19

I'm getting at Central Intelligence and I

31:21

can't do that of I'm just hanging

31:23

out. You're

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Now back. To Robert Laser. To

34:25

clarify to sell it was here under of

34:27

identity and your real name of course Bob

34:29

Maze or. I'll throw that in the

34:31

intro, but just in case, be damn ugly who

34:33

was? Yeah, that actually makes a ton of sense

34:35

And I was also wondering. How you could

34:37

possibly enjoy it? Because on the one hand side. You.

34:40

Gotta love the high life. If you're a money

34:42

man of a drug cartel, you get fancy food

34:44

grade hotels, private jets, your ball on a console,

34:47

And. Then it's like but also. If.

34:49

You get too drunk and you say something

34:51

in the guys i play what you said

34:54

that but you'd told me and then they

34:56

start to realize the something's wrong here like

34:58

I'm. Possibly. Dead Now or

35:00

the I Liked. Best case: the operation

35:02

is blown. Worst case, you're going to

35:04

be in a hole in the desert

35:06

or wherever that's scary. I'm a detail

35:08

freaked by nature whether I'm doing undercover.

35:11

Or. Whatever a meme accounting background

35:13

formally I arrest him. I take

35:15

a different approach. You. Know until

35:17

I got into college. I. Was at

35:20

best. A be mine, a student

35:22

and in college. or maybe I was a D student,

35:24

but I tried harder than anybody else. That.

35:26

Was out there. There's nobody that can our

35:28

work Me. I promise you that I work

35:30

harder. And more focused than the

35:32

person who gets the easy A And

35:34

for me, that works and so. I.

35:37

Was sunset and. Looking

35:40

to make sure that I could

35:42

get. New. Actionable information

35:44

In a time, some of the

35:46

information was so. Mind. Boggling.

35:48

I mean, I worked myself into.

35:51

Gonna. Remember, there's two sides to this. as a money

35:53

launderer of. A you kill me, wonder money,

35:55

all by yourself, and so there are other people who

35:57

were in the money laundering process and for me. In

36:00

at first operation, it was the senior executives

36:02

of what was the seventh largest privately our

36:05

bank and the world at the time. So.

36:07

I'm dealing with people on a board

36:09

level. In

36:11

a situation who. They

36:14

are representing. Not just.

36:16

My. Interests live with My financial

36:19

advisor. Also was the financial advisor

36:21

for. The. Corrupt leader at the

36:23

time of Panama Manual Noriega Glass and

36:25

I was getting information about Men Will

36:27

Noriega on a continuing basis because he

36:29

trusted me. The Investment advisor trusted me.

36:32

And. I would of course, bring

36:34

up conversations about Noriega and.

36:37

Because. Of the fact that Noriega was being paid

36:39

off by the people I was working with his on

36:41

the other side, but he was also who you know

36:43

he had hidden accounts for of. People. Who

36:45

were running other countries President

36:48

Xia of Pakistan he was

36:50

managing accounts actually forte seat

36:52

the Cia Director. At. That

36:55

time. There. Were intelligence operatives

36:57

Their word: drug traffickers.

36:59

They were arms dealers.

37:01

There were corrupt world

37:03

leaders. Money. Launderers. I mean,

37:06

the international banking community has a

37:08

very, very. Unusual array of

37:11

clients. That. They all have

37:13

the same need and that is they

37:15

have money seeking secrecy from governments. And.

37:18

So they're looking for people with highly sophisticated

37:20

methodology is that are going to help them

37:22

to be able to do it. Case

37:24

wants to do it because he doesn't want. Our

37:26

enemies to find out. Who. Were

37:28

sending money to. Noriega. Wants

37:31

it because he doesn't want the rest of the

37:33

world to know that he's on the take. The

37:35

Cartel wants it because they want to be able

37:37

to. Hide. Their money from the government is

37:39

going to steal it. And so you know

37:41

everybody has that same common interest. It.

37:43

Was part of the thing that really. It

37:46

just drove my hunger. For. More.

37:49

Information! I was so excited to be able

37:51

to get information that I knew. Was.

37:53

Tremendously actionable, And you know, months

37:55

before we ended the operation. Robert.

37:58

I'll tell new had trusted me. So much. That.

38:01

He told me. That. The

38:03

you know there was more than a ton of dope.

38:05

Sit not as doc and it was gonna be coming

38:07

in. A lot of people wonder why is as he

38:09

tell the money launderer that's because. Do. The

38:11

math, there was a Thousand kilos.

38:13

Who. Twelve Hundred kilos. Each.

38:15

Kilos selling for at the time

38:17

wholesale. Probably. Fifteen thousand

38:19

dollars. So. There's a lot of money

38:22

that has to move quickly. And the

38:24

people who own the product. Want

38:26

that money back within ten days? In

38:29

Colombia so if you've gotta money wonder you're

38:31

gonna rely on you need a good my

38:33

head's up that daisy be ready. Oh and

38:35

Roberta gave me so much information now that

38:38

we were able to seize. Are

38:40

in the customs and d a.

38:42

Sound. Or load it was. And

38:44

Camden New Jersey across the river from

38:46

Philly. And it went to Chelsea

38:48

to a warehouse him and hadn't. And

38:51

never burdeau. Wound. Up going

38:53

there. I told everybody. Don't.

38:55

Move that stuff because he was there when

38:58

he passed So Forty Foot Container Riot and

39:00

he knew exactly how was packed. But. They.

39:03

Had to take it all apart and take out

39:05

the. Couple. Of thousand pounds of

39:07

coke. So when he was there and

39:09

a opened it up they use customs

39:11

people. To pose as the

39:13

Warehouse min. And. I

39:15

got to talk to her burrow about this later when he was

39:18

in hand as. Months. Months months

39:20

later because I continued under cover for a

39:22

month after he got arrested. But.

39:24

What he wound up doing as he sitting there and

39:26

he's looking at these guys and he's going. There.

39:29

Gringos. Their hands look like

39:31

pillows. they're speaking English. Bizarre

39:33

dockworkers the first. I've never

39:35

seen these ties do for.

39:38

So. He ran out of the place and

39:40

get jumped in a cab and then it

39:42

was it. A chase all over Manhattan that

39:44

finally customs one. Wow. But you know now.

39:46

I had a situation where I was worried

39:48

that I would be compromised because. I

39:50

was one of the last people he

39:52

talked to before he wound up getting

39:55

arrested. So. We did what they didn't

39:57

Goodfellas And you know when somebody gets arrested you go

39:59

to the mat. Mira Nair, all the

40:01

bad guys don't talk to anybody. Because.

40:03

If you do, you never know who's on

40:05

the phone system, whose listening in. So.

40:08

I didn't talk to anybody and and Rivers Weiss

40:10

we had a the way to send codes. To.

40:12

One another of and I wound up talking to

40:14

her payphone to pay phone she said to me

40:17

or. Roberto has a message for you.

40:19

I just visit him in the tombs in New

40:21

York. And. I'm

40:23

really worried about this message and she

40:25

goes well. you know. He. Feels

40:27

you're the only when he can trust that he wants you to take

40:29

over. And. So now for the

40:31

last thirty days, For. Those who

40:34

saw that movie Austin Powers and

40:36

the character mini Me I became

40:38

Roberta as many me and I

40:40

ran his operation so she gives

40:42

me a list of the distributors,

40:44

how much product everybody's holding. Needs.

40:47

Me to collect money to pay to lawyers. And

40:49

I'm like I'm now right in the middle of it.

40:52

Yeah, I gotta pay the suppliers. It. Was

40:54

a lucky. Accident. That

40:56

happened, but For Burrow was one hundred percent believed

40:58

in May and that's what got us their erode

41:00

in the book. I found out in a few

41:03

days what would take a normal investigation months to

41:05

learn and this is exactly why, right? Because it's

41:07

like normally they gotta do all this detective work

41:09

and they find out. There's. A drug

41:11

shipment here. Meanwhile you that this guy's wife and

41:13

all his his associates be like eyes. Here's our

41:16

next ten shipments of the dates and where they're

41:18

going to be and how much as in each

41:20

wanting a like great as your thoughts tears the

41:22

documents that I would have spent a year trying

41:24

to assemble and not getting on time. Probably.

41:26

We had undercover agents in different cities meet

41:28

with his distributors. to collect task

41:31

from them and we time that at the

41:33

same time of the bachelor party where a

41:35

lot of people tend to a country club

41:37

thinking that I was gonna get married. And.

41:40

So we we time to pick ups

41:42

and i also times and offer i

41:44

made to pay. The. Suppliers in

41:46

Colombia. And they flew in

41:48

and met me at my while. One

41:51

guy fluid with or. A woman

41:53

who was a girlfriend dose of Er Burrowes

41:55

to pick up. Four hundred thousand bucks

41:57

and so am I Met with him this

41:59

of. The player gets arrested, Distributors are

42:01

getting arrested, the bankers are getting arrested. A

42:03

lot of a drug traffickers that I. Dealt.

42:06

With were getting arrested in and as

42:08

basically how that particular case concluded gathered

42:10

essentially what was you having a fake

42:12

weddings and you'd take us through that

42:14

a little bit? Sure. These. Cases

42:16

are important, but they're mostly important for

42:19

law enforcement deemed put their hands on

42:21

the bad guys. And be able

42:23

to arrest them. It doesn't prove anything as you

42:25

have a beautiful looking indictment. And the

42:27

bad guys are sitting in a country that

42:29

doesn't allow extradition and so we needed to

42:31

come up with something that was going to

42:33

in an ideal situation. More then

42:35

to the middle district to Florida. Tampa,

42:39

Where the indictment was returned by the

42:41

grand jury. And so I'd

42:43

say. It was probably in the summertime and

42:45

when we had to come up with something

42:48

in one of the other undercover agent said.

42:50

You. Know I think they really

42:52

like As and I say that.

42:55

They. Would come to a family

42:57

events and. What? About a wedding.

43:00

And there was a. A

43:02

female agent to

43:04

said at times

43:06

appeared as my

43:08

girlfriend/fiance. Who. Now was

43:10

going to be the person that I was

43:12

allegedly going to be marrying. And

43:14

a lot of their families. I mean, she became

43:17

good friends with rubber as wife with other people

43:19

who were involved in the Am. In.

43:21

The operation so. It made sense

43:23

to them. And. Since

43:25

eps probably the toughest undercover meeting I had.

43:28

Was. Not with a bad guy. It

43:30

was actually with a wedding planner. At

43:32

the yeah Innisbrook Country Club where I was

43:35

supposed to act like you know, the happy

43:37

broom you know and we made all the

43:39

arrangements with nobody knowing. That.

43:41

We were really. Said. Because.

43:44

You. Know the bank had a branch

43:46

in Tampa and had financial relationships.

43:49

With. Actually some of the people who

43:51

are. Board. Members that the country club

43:53

like and there was no way in hell are we

43:55

were going to take the chance of. Saying.

43:57

That the know this is what's gonna happen rise. Oh.

44:00

My. God. We needed to lure them to the

44:02

country club, which we did. Was. A three

44:04

day affair. Let me just I'm imagining you. What does

44:06

undercover and as female undercover And the wedding planners like

44:08

what do you think of the Cranberry way and you're

44:10

like oh yeah it's great and she walks away know

44:13

like okay you think we can We were all these

44:15

guys at the same time how we're going to swoop

44:17

in and make the right it? A city Mayor. Pacing

44:20

your sake wedding food. It's got it at

44:22

some level. It's funny because it's ridiculous. Well,

44:24

it's surreal. A real doubt about that. I

44:26

mean, it was an important part of the

44:28

formula because no one guy came from Pakistan.

44:31

They were people who came from Columbia. The.

44:33

Guy came from Panama. We

44:35

missed a couple people that,

44:37

unfortunately. We didn't get our hands

44:39

and will. We got our hands on a

44:41

lot of people that we wouldn't have otherwise gotten

44:44

their hands on had we not come up with

44:46

back and have a plan. So in A

44:48

it's kind of like going to today's events where

44:50

you you see this F B I inform and

44:52

to was providing information allegedly about Joe Biden

44:54

corruption in Ukraine and and they arrested him in

44:57

Miami. But. The indictment had been return in

44:59

San Diego and you have a Miami majesty is

45:01

gonna let the guy out on bond. You

45:03

know we wanted in our home court. We'll

45:05

one I'd have to deal with the unknowns

45:08

and. But. That's even an advantage the

45:10

have him in some other jurisdiction of the United

45:12

States, but forget it. If you're going to have

45:14

been Pakistan or Columbia, you're not right. You could

45:16

not get them to the United States, so. Yes,

45:18

Sir And the night before the

45:21

scheduled wedding there was a party

45:23

out by those big pool at

45:25

the country club. You know,

45:27

you can imagine the car of Dies and

45:29

this string orchestra know that other stuff. and

45:32

there's a lot of people who were there.

45:34

That. Were posing as family that were

45:36

actually law enforcement officers and we are

45:38

raised it so that we had. One.

45:41

Of the informants when around, all the bad

45:43

guys. And. Said done. Bob.

45:46

Doesn't notice but we're going to do

45:48

of bachelor party in Tampa tonight. And.

45:51

So dilemmas, He'll be here shortly.

45:53

An all guys are gonna be go in there

45:55

and you know they'll be out. Other entertainment here

45:58

for your wives this evening. So. Some

46:00

will call you when that happened so. You

46:02

know now that limos lineup. So. One

46:04

or two of the family members which

46:07

are really agents get in the dilemma

46:09

with one of the bad guys. We.

46:11

Tried to do it that way and not put more than one

46:13

bad guy in a car. And then they. Drove.

46:16

To a highrise that had like

46:18

ten level. Parking. And they

46:20

went to different levels so that in run

46:22

into one another they get on an elevator

46:24

they go to different floors and when they

46:27

get off the elevator there's a full. Arrest.

46:29

Team there that take them down and. And

46:32

as I noted in a book one of the guys that were

46:34

lot of people in disbelief. But. One of the

46:36

guys who that got off the reserve and

46:38

or esteem uniformed or esteem. That. Included

46:40

two female officers and they put the cuffs

46:43

on him and the guy. Is. Laughing

46:45

and they said was wise you laughing. And

46:47

he said, well, I've been to a bachelor party

46:50

like this before with women dress up as cops

46:52

know where's the party and it took a a

46:54

while to convince him that he was actually under

46:56

arrest. Like know, really? You're. Going to

46:59

pray The funniest? Oh yes, they like that.

47:01

Unless yet, take me to prison baby at

47:03

know Now you're really actually under arrest, near

47:05

spending the night in jail, and you're probably

47:07

gonna be there for thirty years after we're

47:10

done with you like. His hangover the

47:12

next day was probably nothing the and V M

47:14

share of. Wow, that's amazing. I did wonder how

47:16

you managed to arrest all those people at once

47:19

is how do you get it? getting him to

47:21

go in separate elevators? A smart right? you don't

47:23

want like it's thirty or forty or however many

47:25

guys. All in. One big

47:27

all party bus and then you're trying

47:30

to wrangle now, especially because. These.

47:32

Are hardened criminals who are probably not super deal

47:34

and go to jail and willing to kill somebody

47:36

know to avoid it. There was like a thirty

47:39

story. High. Rise in Downtown Tampa,

47:41

The South. And on the top

47:43

was a restaurant at the top of where

47:45

they thought that that party was actually going

47:47

to occur. The funny thing is that the

47:49

owner that restaurants. Was. The it

47:52

was called Macbeth. He was the

47:54

sponsor of the law enforcement softball

47:56

team. And so where's the guys?

47:59

All had me? The. Shirts.

48:01

On that were mean are related to the

48:03

place at the top so that's what they

48:05

thought the party was gonna be. Oh my

48:07

gosh this seems like. Especially in the

48:09

eighties. Or there's no email. There's no mobile

48:12

phones. It. Must have been hard to

48:14

separate the stuff from your regular family life.

48:16

Writers are bad guys. Call in your house

48:18

don't they have to see you and person?

48:20

Well first of other were mobile phones. I

48:22

had one of those giant one leaked the

48:25

sleet sue phone. As him Now

48:27

as it actually there was a New York

48:29

number in it and of Miami number. And

48:31

it again because I was back and forth

48:33

between New York and Miami and so I

48:35

never ever. Used. Any

48:38

oh still phones at my

48:40

offices? okay, undercover officers Or

48:42

my cell phone. To. Communicate

48:44

with my office or with the

48:46

bad guys. I had a home

48:48

in Key Biscayne, So.

48:50

Generally speaking, I would

48:52

go maybe at about. oh say.

48:55

Eleven o'clock at night, sometimes a little bit

48:57

later. They. Are this was though

48:59

the time frame of. Banks.

49:02

Of Payphones. So.

49:04

Behind Bcc, I'd Bank and Credit

49:06

and Commerce International One Brickell Avenue.

49:09

There. Were three long lines

49:11

of payphones. They are probably.

49:13

Twenty. Pay phones in a row. So.

49:16

There's a massive number of pay phones there. I.

49:19

Drive their of course all the other

49:21

cars that were park there were Bentley's

49:23

Mercedes Bmw is. They. Were all

49:26

guys was polish fingernails and speaking Spanish

49:28

that were on the phones talking to

49:30

Columbia work in their deals. I'm.

49:32

On the pay phone and I'm talking to

49:34

the prosecutor to the case agent. To.

49:37

My wife. Because. Everybody knew.

49:39

That. The smartest thing to do would be

49:41

to use a different pay phone. Every

49:44

day you know what is the same pay

49:46

phones because people pick up on that. They.

49:48

Might tap that pay phone. You don't

49:50

want to make patterns so you know Payphones

49:52

became my way. Men that I would be

49:55

able to communicate with other people see slant

49:57

eyed and I had contact agents. I had

49:59

contact agent. The each down. Yeah! so

50:01

they had undercover phones so I could

50:03

use my undercover phone to call another

50:06

undercover phone that was a contact agent

50:08

for me. That phone was to be

50:10

used Only you know to speak with

50:13

me about. Your. Okay, where am I

50:15

going to be? What am I doing? I couldn't

50:17

have surveillance on me all the time. That's too

50:19

dangerous, but there has to be surveillance at times.

50:22

When. There is potentially a risk,

50:24

say, for example, If you're

50:26

receiving a couple hundred thousand dollars

50:28

of and test. Yet it might be

50:30

a rip off. So. You know there needs

50:32

to be covered teams. But. For

50:35

the most part, most of my meetings.

50:37

People. Just knew where I was gonna be. Were.

50:40

Expected to go and would operate

50:42

that way. When you're creating an

50:44

undercover profile of course he that a know

50:46

everything about yourself, your undercover identity, etc. But

50:48

when you're doing it with a bunch of

50:50

other people because you had colleagues write l

50:52

a lot because you're running the state operation

50:54

isn't I assume y'all memorize and discuss tons

50:56

of the details of each of your stories

50:58

with one another as well, right? Let's hook

51:00

a study group cause I made them prepare

51:02

them in writing because you know what's gonna

51:04

happen. You're not going to be in every

51:06

meeting all the time. Rights To: I've got

51:08

this email agent who's posing as a fiance

51:10

who very well may wind up in the

51:12

room alone. With them. And. Then

51:15

I'm not there so we can't play

51:17

off of one another on what's being

51:19

said. so we'd better all have a

51:21

very, very clear understanding. I mean, these

51:24

things were super detail, like what's your

51:26

favorite drink. What? High School? Did

51:28

you go to? What Is your parents?

51:30

How many siblings? Who's. Dead. Who's

51:32

alive? Who's six? Who's Not sick?

51:35

I mean, To. The Nth degree.

51:37

Details. And if you work on to do

51:39

that that you were going to be involved in these meetings.

51:41

There's no way because you're going to create a liability force.

51:44

Yeah, seems like look of I've worked

51:46

with you. Let's say, even for nearly

51:48

ten years, right? And I'm your money

51:50

laundering colleague. I gotta know all

51:52

kinds of weird quirks and small details about you

51:55

like I can't just know like oh yeah, Bob

51:57

went to the University of Michigan. you could be

51:59

returning. Be like he always ask for extra

52:01

chili flakes and he puts it on Hawaiian pizza and

52:03

that always runs a pizza for everyone else. And it's

52:05

a running joke with our crew that you're gonna go

52:08

with him and you can order a crappy Hawaiian pizza

52:10

and put chili flakes. Oliver It's like you have to

52:12

know these little things because I had spry Terrible example.

52:14

The i suppose you could just not put the chili

52:16

flakes on your part of that. He did. But this

52:18

idea of the granular. Detail. That

52:20

you would have on a colleague or a coworker or

52:23

somebody you've known for a long time. We'd have little

52:25

quirks that were annoying that we're kind of funny that

52:27

other people commented on a lot. Absolutely

52:29

right and one of the things that I

52:31

always tell undercover agent says when you're building

52:33

your persona. You. Want to build? It

52:35

is closely to your real than persona as

52:37

you tend. Robert. With seller. Was.

52:39

A person with a business background from

52:42

Staten Island who worked in a bank

52:44

and worked in a brokerage firm and

52:46

now was involved an investment company, mortgage

52:48

brokerage, business, etc etc etc or robber

52:50

mazer warm raison said island. Had.

52:52

A business background, worked at a bank, worked at

52:55

a brokerage firm, It. Was very easy,

52:57

even to the point that. When.

52:59

We started building things with

53:02

respect to the fiance. It.

53:04

Was well how did you guys meet

53:06

both. I use the same story that

53:09

how my wife and I really met. I.

53:11

Was really good friends with my wife

53:14

before we ever started dating. And.

53:17

I. Liked her friend. her best friend. He like

53:19

my best friend. We tried to set each other

53:21

up. They. Were nothing to do this and we're

53:23

sitting there when they and said well. I. Really

53:25

like you know would you like to go

53:27

around And so that became a part of

53:29

the persona between me and of fiance. That

53:31

was how we bet we met because we

53:33

were trying to. Poke! Each other up

53:35

with our best friends and best friends rejected

53:37

as so you want to build as much

53:39

as you possibly can. Based. Upon

53:42

which your real life is all

53:44

about, I. Grew up on Staten Island.

53:47

In a neighborhood called Mariners Harbor. At

53:49

the time it was a very Italian

53:51

neighborhood. There. Are a lotta wise

53:53

guys in the neighborhood? And. I

53:55

wrote the book. My. Grandfather worked at

53:57

one time along with a lot of

53:59

people from the his family the Thera

54:02

family for Lucky Luciano. So

54:04

I knew a lot about you know that stuff,

54:06

but my mom always said you go anywhere near

54:08

any of those people. Are. You do

54:10

anything that comes close to that, you know

54:12

you've had it. My. Mom and Dad

54:14

were dedicated. To the idea that

54:17

their two sons were going to be the first

54:19

in the family to go to college isn't and

54:21

we work. And. We were going to

54:23

have. Good educations, good businesses. We

54:25

were going to get anywhere near any

54:28

that kind of stuff or so I

54:30

didn't have to really worry about. Understanding

54:33

that? What does your mom think about you

54:35

Like all my son went to college all

54:37

he joined. Customs I joined a D H.

54:39

Wait. now he's hanging out with all the people that

54:41

I wouldn't let him hang out with when he was

54:43

a kid. What's going on here She must have been

54:46

super thrilled about as you mustn't worried about you. Ah

54:48

yes, she was worried about me because. I

54:51

was her baby Yeah, but you know she

54:53

was very proud of so as him as

54:55

my dad was, my dad was a we're

54:57

we're to that. My dad fought in Africa,

54:59

in Italy and in France. hardly ever talked

55:01

about. It was very very. Patriotic.

55:04

Guy My brother fought in Vietnam. Hardly.

55:06

Ever talks about it. Very

55:08

patriotic guy. My. Mom works

55:10

for the Us Army as a civilian

55:13

employees who became the Comptroller. Ad.

55:15

For Wadsworth and later Fort

55:17

Hamilton. The. To army bases on

55:19

either side of the there is an

55:21

unabridged family. God and country.

55:24

Are. The. Main stays:

55:27

Of the people who meant the most to me. In.

55:29

My life. And. That's another

55:32

important thing. About being

55:34

grounded. Because. His family

55:36

really really matters to you. And.

55:39

Your maker really matters to you, and

55:41

your country really matters to you. Your.

55:44

Of far, far less likely. To

55:46

become a victim like. My. Partner

55:48

in as subsequent undercover operation who went

55:51

to prison for eleven years isn't and

55:53

be compromised. And it's very,

55:55

very important for. People. Who

55:57

do this type of work to recognize that

56:00

there is potentially if you don't. Operate.

56:02

Smartly, There. Is a potential

56:05

for you. To compromise

56:07

yourself. And to before

56:09

you even realize it, slide down a

56:11

slippery slope that there's no way in

56:13

hell you can come back from. I.

56:16

Was very fortunate. My. Parents

56:18

were. Ideal. Models for

56:20

me. My. Leadership. Gave

56:22

me the opportunity to train me.

56:25

I'd. Was taken very, very seriously. Long

56:27

term undercover training. And. Then

56:29

very seriously to build this undercover

56:32

operation and I was surrounded by

56:34

extraordinarily talented people. You. Know at the

56:36

height of the operation. They. Were probably a

56:38

one hundred and fifty. Agents.

56:40

Analysts, supervisors, administrative people,

56:43

and prosecutors who were

56:45

part of the operation.

56:47

So by far. I

56:49

was not alone wilson this thing. I

56:51

got the privilege of earning a leadership

56:53

role in the undercover team, but there

56:56

was an investigative team, a prosecution team,

56:58

There. Were many many other moving parts that

57:00

were extremely important in if it wasn't for

57:02

them. We. Wouldn't be having this discussion right

57:05

now. Man, I guess you much

57:07

near your partner another operation went to prison.

57:09

I guess it's gotta be tempting at some

57:11

level know. And you got a trunk or

57:13

a duffel bag with two million bucks in

57:15

it to just try and vanish with it.

57:17

Or. Take. A couple hundred thousand off

57:19

the top and spices. It's the eighties nineties

57:21

money you to do a lot with that

57:23

so the temptation is definitely there, especially if

57:25

your job is to move it around and

57:27

hide it. It's like you probably think like

57:29

and let these guys know that some of

57:31

this has gone and tell the other side

57:34

the same thing and I could get away

57:36

with this. Well, his compromise started even before

57:38

the undercover operation because. He was

57:40

a young officer. With. Very

57:42

little experience and who was taken

57:44

from a uniform position after eighteen

57:46

months. And thrown in vice because

57:48

he was put a Reagan and spoke Spanish

57:50

and they thought well you know we're going

57:53

to have him do undercover work. Well.

57:55

That's not a reason for selecting someone to

57:57

do undercover work and then they put him.

58:00

To informants from Columbia

58:02

who were extremely manipulative

58:04

and I he started making

58:06

some Cardinal. Sins.

58:09

Right in the beginning and they silly he did

58:11

everything by the numbers. He. Met with

58:13

another officer. When he met with them everything

58:15

was on paper. Then. He started to

58:17

like them that he started to meet with

58:19

them alone. Then. He started to

58:22

socialize with them. The I'd pictures

58:24

of him when he was with the to

58:26

informants with their kids and his kid. he

58:28

was divorced. In the park. And

58:31

they were. you know, do And a little park,

58:33

picnic. And so now he's with

58:35

them, one on one and the very

58:37

first thing. That. The manipulative

58:39

informants did. To. Test

58:42

him. Was. They said. We're.

58:44

Going to be working with you. And you're going

58:46

to be do an undercover and we're going to be working

58:48

with you undercover. And. Your.

58:51

Investment for us. Do not going to be able to do

58:53

it the way you do and and now you're not dressed

58:55

right. Let's. Go to

58:57

the store and let me show you. The.

58:59

Kind of clothes you need to be wearing. so they go to

59:01

a mall. Shows. In the close the

59:04

guy goes. You know what? It's. An investment

59:06

for me. Between. Us. I'll

59:08

buy the stuff. And he buys

59:10

the guys a bunch of hosts for guy. And.

59:13

The guy, but some do it. Well. Of

59:15

course the like bomb goes on. new foreman said ghost

59:17

when i got some that a work with here. So.

59:20

Now. The. Next thing he does

59:22

he goes and you know yet? you need to

59:24

have some nice jewelry. And. He takes

59:26

this watch off of his his arm of is a

59:28

rado. was worth about ten grand at a time. He

59:31

says here. Alone. This to

59:33

you. The guy takes it the top

59:35

pick up, the gop takes it. Yeah.

59:38

Well now they know. Okay,

59:40

He's. Taking this stuff to something else

59:42

going on there, hanging out personally. His

59:45

personal background was his mom was

59:47

ons assistance living in the Bronx.

59:50

In she was ill. And he

59:52

had two divorces and he was paying child support

59:54

out the Ying Yang. And he

59:56

was always talking about his financial problems

59:58

Said. Well. We'll. Think that's

1:00:00

gonna lead to yeah and so the

1:00:02

inform in start explaining to him. How

1:00:05

it is that he might be able to make some money

1:00:07

and and room for you know it is down the slippery

1:00:09

slope. Man. It seems very

1:00:11

difficult. You. Mentioned selecting the right

1:00:13

people for the job. How do

1:00:16

you know if someone's gonna be corruptible are not

1:00:18

a desk or don't you. Well. We

1:00:20

wind up getting polygraph test where

1:00:22

course. I'd like to say that

1:00:24

my former partner they did eleven years beat

1:00:27

the polygraph. Yeah, because he's. Such.

1:00:29

An psychopath, but. There are

1:00:31

ways that people can actually study. Looking

1:00:34

in a mirror and. Say.

1:00:36

False responses and eventually convinced

1:00:38

themselves that. It's. Not that false of

1:00:40

a response and owners it takes a little training but they

1:00:42

could do it. You. Know you gotta know

1:00:44

enough about the background. You've gotta do a

1:00:46

complete background you don't want an agent who

1:00:48

has. Bankruptcy. Do

1:00:51

you want a guy who's got. Two

1:00:53

divorces and financial stress know? obviously not.

1:00:55

You know you wanna make sure that

1:00:57

these are people. Who. Have

1:00:59

good sound financial backgrounds who

1:01:02

have good sound character. And.

1:01:04

Unity gotta do a quality background in

1:01:07

order to make sure that you hiring

1:01:09

people. Who. Deserve this type of

1:01:11

responsibility that you're willing to give to

1:01:13

them. I'd like to say that. Corruption.

1:01:16

Is something that only happens elsewhere.

1:01:18

But unfortunately it is a situation

1:01:21

in you know, the Us law

1:01:23

enforcement community. Maybe. Not to the

1:01:25

degree that it might be in some other

1:01:27

countries, but it is. It is an ongoing

1:01:29

problem in. It's something that I also. Do

1:01:32

a lot of instructing words,

1:01:34

presenting. To law enforcement agencies

1:01:37

and and I love to get the

1:01:39

opportunity to talk to people who were

1:01:41

in management in law enforcement. Ask

1:01:43

them to confront themselves about the fact that.

1:01:46

What? Do you normally do when you

1:01:48

have a circumstance like my former partner

1:01:50

who went to prison for eleven years.

1:01:52

What? Do you do with that

1:01:55

knowledge? What? They normally do as

1:01:57

they try to sweep it under the rug because. They.

1:01:59

Really don't want the public

1:02:01

to see. That. These chinks

1:02:03

in the armor exist because they don't want

1:02:06

the public the lose. Face.

1:02:08

In law Enforcement Now I can understand that

1:02:10

kind of an approach. But. My

1:02:12

view is that you need to use

1:02:14

as. That. Story needs to

1:02:16

be used within the law enforcement

1:02:18

community to help people to recognize

1:02:20

how even a good guy. Can.

1:02:23

Become a bad guys and how it can

1:02:25

absolutely turn around. You don't want to sweep

1:02:27

this under the rug. You want to talk

1:02:29

about it. You want to talk about what

1:02:31

happened, why it happens, how you can prevent

1:02:33

it from happening, and to help. Officers.

1:02:36

Who might be working with another person

1:02:38

And go. You. Know I need to pull his

1:02:41

rains and. Because. I can see him making

1:02:43

a problem in I know law enforcement officers

1:02:45

who deal with informants. And the informer

1:02:47

goes am my brother's got a used car lot.

1:02:49

And love of of a by then another I

1:02:51

asked to go so well me I'm going to

1:02:54

go look and see what they got a lot.

1:02:56

No, no, you don't do business with. inform him

1:02:58

or family members or friends of informants. No no

1:03:00

that's not part of what you're supposed to be

1:03:02

doing. It's part of getting down that slippery slope.

1:03:05

And. Making stupid judgment decisions that

1:03:07

ultimately you turn around and

1:03:09

your go. Well, why not

1:03:11

go for a little bit more? I'm already made

1:03:13

these other mistakes. Yeah, and then you really make

1:03:15

the big mistakes. This

1:03:20

is the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest

1:03:22

Robert Mazer. Will be right back. This.

1:03:24

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who support the show. Now. For Director

1:05:57

Part One with Robert Nozick. I

1:06:01

can see that process right? Like go on his got

1:06:03

a used car lot. He goes there and takes a

1:06:05

look and and somebody like whoa is another guy. That

1:06:07

I was given a really good it. just give

1:06:09

him the car one I gave him a car.

1:06:11

Okay what what got you might have been used

1:06:14

car Will begin. Nice garden I can really do.

1:06:16

I was just like one thing and they are

1:06:18

like will on engine trouble for that on what

1:06:20

am I know it's part of the operation research

1:06:22

rationalizing this stuff. And suddenly it's

1:06:24

like.dot.their wiring you one hundred thousand

1:06:26

dollars to look the other way

1:06:28

when they do something or whatever.

1:06:30

One of the things that early

1:06:32

stage stupidities that my former partner

1:06:34

did. He wanted to be a

1:06:36

superstar. He had great informants will

1:06:38

they gave him great information. Well.

1:06:40

In turn they were looking for a little bit a health. So.

1:06:43

He goes and tells them. On.

1:06:45

Two occasions. About investigations

1:06:47

that were being started focusing on

1:06:49

them. Don't deal out of your club.

1:06:52

They. Know about that club? you're gonna

1:06:54

get yourself in big trouble. At.

1:06:57

He told them on another time the

1:06:59

hey they got award for your arrest

1:07:01

The guy sledding went to New York

1:07:03

Namur see was getting the opportunity to

1:07:05

make big cases against the competitors of

1:07:07

his informants. That. Made him look like

1:07:09

a superstar in the eyes of law enforcement. But he

1:07:12

was paying a price for that. As

1:07:14

he continued to slide down the slippery slope,

1:07:16

Because. He was doing things that he. Really didn't

1:07:19

think it's first. Were. All

1:07:21

that bad. Because. Look, I'm

1:07:23

getting something for the government done this. So.

1:07:25

Yeah, maybe I'd. Be helping this guy a

1:07:27

little more than I should, but. Look. At

1:07:29

that we arrested five people We seized by

1:07:32

kilos. We seize this. We did that. Somehow.

1:07:34

He rationalize that stuff out. I can see

1:07:36

that though. I you know I can see how

1:07:39

this happens in I I. I don't

1:07:41

sympathize really are at a desk as I think

1:07:43

the guy sounds like they'd made a lot of

1:07:45

dumb mistakes. but in really see I'm and I

1:07:47

suppose you can to you can really see how

1:07:49

this. Is. Tempting. In a moment, I

1:07:51

was easy to rationalize, especially if you're like, look,

1:07:53

be arrested. Five dangerous people. So what We let

1:07:56

one other guy go and he's feeding us are

1:07:58

done. Information seems like a good deal. But

1:08:00

it's a bargain with the devil in many ways.

1:08:02

Yep, Absolutely. There's a throwaway line in the book.

1:08:04

And by the way, people by the books, please

1:08:07

use the links in the sonos it helps support

1:08:09

to sell. There's a throwaway line in the book.

1:08:11

You say you're talking about meeting with sources and

1:08:13

you say. First, silence and active listening.

1:08:16

These people can offer up more than you

1:08:18

bargained for. a more than they plan on

1:08:20

talking about. What are you using to draw

1:08:22

people out when you're talking with them? Sure,

1:08:25

So. A good example of that.

1:08:27

I think if Miura listeners watched

1:08:29

the film The Infiltrator, this is

1:08:31

a bad guy using active listening.

1:08:34

Is river a volcano? It. Is

1:08:36

sitting there in a movie theater alone? And.

1:08:40

In. Walks Bryan Cranston. And.

1:08:43

He turns to Cranston and. He.

1:08:46

Says so Mr was cela. What?

1:08:48

Can you do for me? And. He doesn't

1:08:50

say anything after atoms and what happens

1:08:53

is the person to whom that active

1:08:55

listening. Comment is made

1:08:58

becomes. A little uneasy. And

1:09:00

feels like they have to fill the space. So.

1:09:02

Now they've gotta give the information that this

1:09:05

guy is looking for. Best. Example,

1:09:07

I can give you that of what happened

1:09:09

to me. Where. Somebody.

1:09:12

Used active listening on me and he goes

1:09:14

to a personal story. You on

1:09:16

My mom was. In. The process of

1:09:18

clearly. Passing. Away. And

1:09:21

and priest from. Hospice.

1:09:24

Came by. And he just turned to

1:09:26

me and he said. How. You doing And

1:09:28

I said. On didn't sign. And

1:09:31

he just. Continued. To look at

1:09:33

me and kind of an inquisitive way and

1:09:35

I felt like. Already that by I'm

1:09:37

where I said. I guess I better tell him I said well

1:09:39

you know the fact is. I'm. Not doing well.

1:09:42

And this is what's bother me and I started opening up

1:09:44

and I was talking to him and I was telling and

1:09:46

things that I was otherwise not inclined to tell him. And

1:09:49

so. Any. Time you can

1:09:51

use. That type of them

1:09:53

approach instead of trying to say well.

1:09:55

Hey this is what I can do for you. And

1:09:58

I can do this. I can do that, can you? The

1:10:00

other thing. You. Know my approach would be.

1:10:03

I can help you. The way I

1:10:05

help people. Changes. Based upon.

1:10:08

Their. Needs. Their. Capabilities.

1:10:12

So. What is the problem?

1:10:14

that? Problems. You face.

1:10:17

The. You need the most help on. From.

1:10:19

Me: You know what my capabilities are. What

1:10:22

is your greatest concern? And. Don't

1:10:24

say anything after that. Just. Look at

1:10:26

him and wait. Let. The time though, they're going

1:10:29

to feel. Like they're gonna say something

1:10:31

rent and and they're going to start talking

1:10:33

about it's almost like get enough for a

1:10:35

poor to. Ask. Him what keeps them

1:10:37

up at night and and and they just download on

1:10:39

the I would imagine a lot of these guys don't

1:10:41

have a lot of people they've been taught you. Anyway,

1:10:43

yeah, I'd probably hit it off best with Roberto. One

1:10:46

of them number one things that you have to

1:10:48

do. If. You really want to

1:10:50

try to establish from for him communicate with

1:10:53

people. Is you have to be willing to

1:10:55

do the homework? Before.

1:10:57

I met Roberto I knew I was gonna have

1:10:59

the opportunity to if I could get past. Guy.

1:11:02

Number One. There. Had

1:11:04

been sailed. Big. Investigations

1:11:06

of Roberto previously. So.

1:11:08

I knew. About. His

1:11:10

family about his businesses. What?

1:11:13

Is likes. His dislikes were. Will.

1:11:15

Guess what? When. I'm going to be talking

1:11:17

to him. A. Lotta his likes.

1:11:20

He's not gonna know I got this because I

1:11:22

did my homework. But. For example,

1:11:25

He. Came to my home. Actually,

1:11:27

My informants home but he came to my home

1:11:30

in Florida. Through. Another

1:11:32

informants. I. Had the

1:11:34

use of a Rolls Royce. I.

1:11:37

Knew Roberto was a collector of Rolls Royces he

1:11:39

had found of them. So. Added

1:11:41

parked in the garage. And when

1:11:43

we got to the house I popped the garage

1:11:46

to. We walked in through the garage never saying

1:11:48

a word. About. The Rolls Royce.

1:11:51

He. Saw it immediately, was glued to it. And.

1:11:54

All our laws are. I said yeah Well and I

1:11:56

knew everything about that particular Rolls Royce and I talked

1:11:58

about it. I told him, you know I really wanted

1:12:00

to become a collector. All white, I want to be

1:12:02

a collector to Now we're buddies. were starting to become

1:12:04

buddies. We have a lot in common. See.

1:12:07

Even though we became kind of like

1:12:09

buddies. He. Would promise bigger

1:12:11

bigger jobs. And. I'm Dritan. A

1:12:14

hundred thousand One hundred and Fifty thousand. I

1:12:16

know he's move and thousands of kilos at

1:12:18

a time. I'm not getting the biggest part

1:12:21

of his business rise, but he teach promising

1:12:23

to me. So I went to this. Informants.

1:12:26

Who's. Home I was using. The.

1:12:28

Former bodyguard. And.

1:12:31

I said, you know, What? Would you do

1:12:33

in this kind of a situation? You. Know

1:12:35

you got. This guy's got a lot of potential.

1:12:37

He keeps promising raise gonna do big stuff. Does.

1:12:40

A little bit. he does a little bit there,

1:12:42

but never really delivers. He. Goes

1:12:44

up as easy and then again my guests. A

1:12:47

gift? What? you mean? He goes. And then

1:12:49

a given something. that's the next time he

1:12:51

says. Listen. We're.

1:12:53

Partners were going to do this. We're gonna do another thing.

1:12:55

I'm in a given the gift and I'm in a bless.

1:12:58

Our relationship. And. As gonna be

1:13:00

a guess that's really gonna be. Something.

1:13:02

That's meaningful to him now. Roberta was a

1:13:04

religious guy. And. I

1:13:07

said the government's gonna give me like. A

1:13:10

twelve inch of black and white T V even give him as

1:13:12

a gift. I mean I, what am I going to do? You

1:13:14

are right here. Let me show you the type of thing I've

1:13:16

been talking about. so he goes into is safe. And

1:13:18

he takes out This gold started.

1:13:20

it was like quarter inch bars

1:13:22

of gold. And started with

1:13:24

diamonds. It was across while and was

1:13:27

worth like twenty five grand. Yeah, So.

1:13:30

I said well it's great, but you know we

1:13:32

can buy that from here. So. He

1:13:34

goes no A Here's I got an idea. Alone

1:13:36

this to your agency. And

1:13:38

you just make sure you get it back from I'm at the end

1:13:40

of the saying and I go well. I'm A.the I

1:13:43

crossed the T guy. I'm gonna go

1:13:45

back to my boss. I wrote up this.

1:13:47

Borrow agreements. He wasn't getting any

1:13:50

money for his cooperation Roka and

1:13:52

so we said. Ok. Will.

1:13:54

Borrow this. Will. Try.

1:13:56

To get back for the at the end. If. We

1:13:59

can get it back as. Twenty Five thousand.

1:14:01

And. Will give you a twenty five thousand dollar. Award

1:14:04

for his of your help. In.

1:14:06

This case. So. With that

1:14:08

signed off my my boss I get across.

1:14:11

So. Now it's a time when

1:14:13

Roberto. Flies. Into Teterboro

1:14:15

with me. Were. At the brokerage

1:14:17

firm. The him the guy at the

1:14:19

brokerage firm did a great job. Were. Sitting

1:14:22

there talking now he's related to

1:14:24

the guy that I'm is my

1:14:26

informant. So. He knew who I

1:14:28

was. We had him signed up as an informant

1:14:31

as well. And. You know he

1:14:33

starts with the story as I can I say. For.

1:14:35

Tennessee see that just give me a hard time because my

1:14:37

last name and said allow it to give me but he

1:14:40

says. Everybody was Italian as and

1:14:42

a Macias is garbage. you know, blow up

1:14:44

right? So we leave there. we go to

1:14:46

a social club. Now we're in

1:14:48

a dilemma. We get to his his

1:14:50

apartment building which is like right near.

1:14:53

The. United Nations. The

1:14:55

simulation is in the car. He.

1:14:57

Goes to get out. And just as is

1:14:59

closing the door, I grab an eye opener up and I

1:15:01

go out. And. I close the door and

1:15:04

I said, you know, revert, I'm. You've. Told

1:15:06

me many times that you know you're prepared

1:15:08

to begin a partnership with me. A And

1:15:10

I'm not an idiot. I know. You

1:15:12

know what we're doing right now as you're putting your toe in the

1:15:14

pool. You. Know jump and in the water. I

1:15:17

mean what's the matter and she trust me what's going

1:15:20

on he does. All ancestors were like brothers. I.

1:15:22

Go. If. We're going to really get

1:15:24

involved in this business. This is

1:15:26

a situation where we have to make. A

1:15:28

promise to one another. And. A promises

1:15:30

that I'm. I'm prepared to

1:15:32

die for you. Are you prepared to

1:15:35

die from the. Yeah. Yeah,

1:15:37

would you know with we're in, we're blood brothers in this

1:15:39

thing. I go. Are. I. That.

1:15:41

Being the case, My. Family has

1:15:43

a tradition. And.

1:15:46

In honor of their tradition. We.

1:15:48

Have a gift for you. And. This.

1:15:51

Is our gift to you. In. Honor

1:15:53

of the partnership that we now has. And.

1:15:56

He opens at know this guy's a high end

1:15:58

jewelry. oh I see he opens this thing up

1:16:00

and he's got this twenty five thousand dollar cross.

1:16:03

He couldn't believe it. Oh My. God I said in

1:16:05

there is one other thing. And

1:16:07

now on Agents Not gonna do this. But I

1:16:09

said. See her in the car? And

1:16:11

at the time. Hours: Thirty Seven. I. Said: I'm

1:16:14

thirty seven years old. I have no kids. My.

1:16:16

Family's Italian. That. Is

1:16:18

not acceptable. So. She's gonna

1:16:21

be my wife. Don't. Ever talk

1:16:23

business and from. Never.

1:16:25

And as long as we. You.

1:16:28

Honor that. And. You honor the

1:16:30

fact that we're prepared in our partnership. To.

1:16:32

Risk our lives for one another. Let's.

1:16:34

Do It. And. He said okay compared

1:16:36

to an end in. The. Money

1:16:39

start have flown like crazy moon and it

1:16:41

worked. Because. I don't think

1:16:43

in a million years at that stage. He

1:16:45

thought that I was an agent. Neither.

1:16:48

Nor did his wife and the day that

1:16:50

they did this they arrested him and they

1:16:52

did a search. Word Eyes! On

1:16:54

his apartment by the Un. So.

1:16:56

His wife eventually gets in touch with

1:16:58

me, making me that many me. And.

1:17:01

She goes. Say. God D A

1:17:03

did not take the splash bored out

1:17:05

from underneath the dishwasher because that's where

1:17:07

Roberta as fake passport and a lot

1:17:09

of the blocks. A cast. Were.

1:17:12

Hidden oh my gosh shows. I've already

1:17:14

destroyed the passport. I. Tore it

1:17:16

up. I don't think that she didn't

1:17:18

destroy it because he would have needed that. In.

1:17:21

Order to get access to accounts that were in that

1:17:23

name. but she said she'd already destroyed it. but she

1:17:25

wanted to give me the money. But. That

1:17:27

money needed to go to the lawyers and they need they

1:17:29

you know they needed help and and then I needed at

1:17:32

work with their distributors and stuff. But it is

1:17:34

no. Little things like

1:17:36

that. Little things. Like

1:17:39

taking the time to really. Understand

1:17:41

who these people are. And

1:17:44

what makes them tick? Not

1:17:46

only just doing your homework on that, But.

1:17:49

Also knowing to be asking

1:17:51

these. Open. Ended Questions.

1:17:54

That. You should be asking. Preparing.

1:17:56

Yourself for being compromised.

1:18:00

In advance of being with these guys. I.

1:18:02

Thought about all that. And. Of course

1:18:04

everybody goes like. Well. Pino.

1:18:06

Not known for single, what, as they told you, the only

1:18:08

way they're going to do business as you get a snort

1:18:10

align with them and I? Well. That's really

1:18:13

easy. Because. I had this built into

1:18:15

my background. I've. Already told him Listen.

1:18:17

You. Guys have the cherry on the top of the keeps.

1:18:20

My. Bread and Butter is my sampling him his

1:18:22

days Think that I'm out of control. They're

1:18:24

not going to give me the tens of millions of

1:18:27

dollars that I wind up having to move for them.

1:18:29

You're. Going to get me killed. So. As that's

1:18:31

that important to you. Take. Your

1:18:33

line and put it where the sun doesn't

1:18:35

shine Because I am not taking a chance.

1:18:38

Of. Losing my main gig. Now.

1:18:41

The other problem that I had was. Of.

1:18:43

Course: Women. And I

1:18:45

wasn't prepared for this one. So. I'm

1:18:47

within the first level guy and were out on

1:18:50

men's club. And he comes by and

1:18:52

this is in the movie and he's gotten to

1:18:54

women one under each arm and he goes Mr.

1:18:56

Bob. This. Is for you.

1:18:58

Take her upstairs and to the private

1:19:00

room. And my mind's fly and

1:19:03

like the thousand miles of seconds. And that's

1:19:05

when I came up with the idea of.

1:19:07

Listen. Of a thirty six year old guy. I

1:19:09

have a fiance. Have never been

1:19:12

married before. I. Don't want to screw this.

1:19:14

Then I'm. Thanks. But no thanks and ain't

1:19:16

gonna happen. And. They had a

1:19:18

funny line and and the movie where. Cranston.

1:19:21

Delivers outline and says well you know I am

1:19:23

see on say and my don't want to compromise

1:19:26

that and he was so. You

1:19:28

have a fiance so. Come. On

1:19:30

take the girls know so. I

1:19:32

hadn't thought about that type a compromise and I

1:19:34

really should have. but you really need a precinct.

1:19:36

yeah a lot of that type of stuff out.

1:19:38

Yet to be convicted as well, right? convinced of

1:19:40

your own of your own red lines Because I

1:19:42

can imagine it would be tough to be in

1:19:45

that situation or like our i Don't Do the

1:19:47

line the come on and on. see that coming.

1:19:49

You're like well I'm says serving my country. I

1:19:51

guess I'll just you know I don't have to

1:19:53

go all the way. I could just gonna hang

1:19:55

out for a minute have a drink ramming. it's

1:19:57

real thrill. Slippery Slope is mostly we're thirty seven

1:19:59

year old guy in your with a bunch of

1:20:01

gangsters you eat be an easy thing to rationalize

1:20:03

of anchor that point Well as one of the

1:20:05

things that stuck out of my mind was you

1:20:07

know the first thing that Joe persona taught me.

1:20:10

Which. Was. Think. Trial from

1:20:12

Day One. Remember there's gonna be

1:20:14

a jury. Of twelve of

1:20:16

your peers who are gonna be or twelve

1:20:18

their peers but to a eat everyday people

1:20:21

and keep in mind also that. You

1:20:23

need to be convinced. That

1:20:25

you're. Informants. Or. Even

1:20:27

the bad guys. If. You're not

1:20:29

recording it. They may be recording it

1:20:31

right. And. Tear. Yourself

1:20:34

like every single second.

1:20:36

That. You are in this mode. You're.

1:20:39

Going to have to. Show. To

1:20:41

a jury. And. Not.

1:20:44

Be. Ashamed of right Man that makes a

1:20:46

lot of sense. A good think of

1:20:48

trial from day one. Nothing nothing nothing

1:20:50

kills the mood when you're being presented

1:20:52

with to a beautiful women. Like thinking

1:20:54

of your trial and haven't talked to

1:20:56

twelve. Boomers about why you did

1:20:58

what you did rice and your own. Yes,

1:21:01

the all your conviction is based on whether

1:21:03

or not the old lady staring at you

1:21:05

think you're a decent person after you tell

1:21:07

his part of the story and is almost

1:21:09

Stockholm syndrome. Almost. Occurred for

1:21:12

me with respect to the jury in

1:21:14

that in this first case. I.

1:21:16

Got on the witness stand in the middle of

1:21:18

March and I got off in the middle of

1:21:21

June. I was on the witness stand every court

1:21:23

day for three months while and so the jury

1:21:25

really really knew me. Such as.

1:21:27

And really really knew the defendants

1:21:29

and the lawyers. And. One.

1:21:32

Of the things that I

1:21:34

tried to help undercover agents

1:21:36

know is that there is

1:21:38

a definite formula defense attorney's

1:21:40

use to attempts to embarrass

1:21:43

agencies and agents her in

1:21:45

undercover operations. And. One of

1:21:47

them, his role reversal. Role.

1:21:49

Reversal. So do not ever answer

1:21:51

a question because you're trying to

1:21:53

be courteous. To a question

1:21:56

posed. using. Your undercover name.

1:21:58

One. Of the lawyers. The. Guy

1:22:00

Many J Hogan who is a big

1:22:02

represent arose Colombian drug traffickers out of

1:22:05

Miami. Would. Started a weasel

1:22:07

calling me Agent was Cela. And

1:22:09

I would politely say over a period of

1:22:12

almost three months. Mr. Hogan

1:22:14

My name's Mazer the seller was my

1:22:16

undercover name. And then I would answer

1:22:18

the question. And. Eventually. It.

1:22:20

Got to the point where he would call me

1:22:23

misaligned. And I could look up and

1:22:25

see the jury and see them roll their eyes.

1:22:27

And kind of look at me with sympathy

1:22:29

in their faces. And so

1:22:32

I thought. I knew the judge to charges

1:22:34

pretty well for many cases. And

1:22:36

I decided to take a risky chance and

1:22:38

not. Every undercover agents to do this cause

1:22:40

you to get locked up doing it. But what I

1:22:42

said was a Mr. Hogan. You've called

1:22:45

meme aging sell em. Hundreds

1:22:47

upon hundreds of times isn't if you

1:22:49

like. Tomorrow I'll bring a name tag.

1:22:52

My. Name is Mazer. So.

1:22:54

Paw. Next day we come in

1:22:57

and between my notes I have a yellow

1:22:59

sticky I'd to yellow studies and with a

1:23:01

black sharpie I wrote Mazer. First

1:23:04

question out of a box from Holden.

1:23:07

Aged Marcella above a Bible. blah blah. I.

1:23:09

Took it out and I put it on

1:23:11

my chest and I said. Mr.

1:23:14

Hogan. I. Promise I'd bring a

1:23:16

name tag and here it isn't. And in

1:23:18

my name is Mazer. He tried

1:23:20

to laugh it off and the jury last.

1:23:23

I. Had told him oh I brought a second one so you

1:23:25

could put it up by the podium. As. Well.

1:23:28

And that's when he walked toward me. He took

1:23:30

that he was walking back. And I said.

1:23:33

When. We all know you know my name is Mais.

1:23:35

Wow. You could hear a pin drop in a courtroom.

1:23:37

He. It's hard to around he scream. And

1:23:40

at me. Everybody knew

1:23:42

he knew he do, He

1:23:44

knew right and. Thank.

1:23:46

God the Judge will the judge. Warned

1:23:49

me not to volunteer at a information,

1:23:51

just answer the questions. Bah bah bah

1:23:53

bah bah. There. Are other judges

1:23:55

that I think would have probably had

1:23:57

the jury lee's and would have probably.

1:24:00

Add me sent down that a lock up for

1:24:02

at least the rest of the day, really. But

1:24:04

anyway, I got away with that and hogan. Completely

1:24:07

lost credibility. In front

1:24:09

of the jury. But role reversal is something that

1:24:11

you've gotta be very, very aware of in reality.

1:24:14

That. You don't become a victim of

1:24:16

role reversal. And to. That.

1:24:19

You have the armor on and

1:24:21

prepare yourself. With. Respect to

1:24:23

as a law enforcement officer ever

1:24:25

answering a question, When.

1:24:27

Someone poses it as though you are

1:24:29

an agent whose last name is your

1:24:31

undercover identity because they'll run with that

1:24:34

And then I'll say you know this

1:24:36

guy doesn't even know who the hell

1:24:38

he is And did you notice he's

1:24:40

been answering questions to his undercover name.

1:24:43

He. Loved that life so much he never wanted to

1:24:45

leave it. He. Got my guy to do things

1:24:47

that he'd never do because he didn't want this over

1:24:49

and you can hear it all. com and rise no

1:24:51

doubt about. And. For think that's a

1:24:53

very creative sec need from the lawyer but

1:24:55

it's also it must have been so annoying

1:24:58

for the get the judge what you get

1:25:00

away with it because she was probably super

1:25:02

annoyed by the whole thing as well as

1:25:04

it says yeah it's like this endless repetitive,

1:25:06

you correcting him, you correcting him and in

1:25:08

he just thought he was gonna wear you

1:25:10

down eventually. didn't happen. Yeah. You.

1:25:13

Know it. Another extraordinarily important thing is, and

1:25:15

I and I. When. I talk to

1:25:17

undercover agents. I. Bring up the

1:25:19

example of Abraham Lincoln who had

1:25:21

at adversaries. That she needed to

1:25:24

Somehow these were people who ran against

1:25:26

him. Who somehow he needed to get

1:25:28

them to be supportive of them. And

1:25:30

what he did was he made them

1:25:32

cabinet members within his own administration after

1:25:34

he became President, right? So what do

1:25:36

you do when you have a bad

1:25:38

guy. Who. Doesn't like you.

1:25:41

And. Is trying to make your life

1:25:43

miserable? And I had that

1:25:45

happen to me in that Roberto

1:25:47

had his main distributor. Was. A

1:25:49

Cuban guy who actually had been in the Bay

1:25:51

of Pigs. Who. Was.

1:25:54

Seeing. Me as.

1:25:57

A challenge may be. To being.

1:26:00

Robert his favorite, And somebody who

1:26:02

might be able to cause robert of a

1:26:04

do things. With. Me that

1:26:06

this guy would have otherwise had

1:26:08

done with him. And. So I

1:26:10

had to find a way to get him.

1:26:13

Not. To hate me, not to dislike

1:26:15

me, and to see me as an

1:26:17

ally. So what I did. Was.

1:26:20

I went to revert. Oh. And. I said,

1:26:22

listen Roberto. I would never work with any one.

1:26:24

On. Your team without your permission. I've.

1:26:27

Noticed that his name is to

1:26:30

to. I noticed. How

1:26:32

To Tell really carries himself some

1:26:34

tremendously. I have a few things that

1:26:36

need to be done. That. I think

1:26:38

if you give me the permission to work

1:26:40

with him. He could do good things for

1:26:42

me and I can do good things for him. He

1:26:45

said sure, sure, don't worry about it. So.

1:26:47

Then I had to agents. Posing.

1:26:49

As Bad Guys core years. And

1:26:52

I said the to to listen man. I'm

1:26:54

going to have a delivery. Hundred fifty grand. In.

1:26:56

Miami. May. Not pay

1:26:59

x amount. Could you pick

1:27:01

up the hundred sixty? Keep it overnight. Then.

1:27:04

I'll have you delivered to somebody else the

1:27:06

next day. Sure, sure, I'll do that. Okay,

1:27:09

fine. so we took. Money. Our

1:27:11

money. Not. Government money it was

1:27:13

profits from the undercover operation Front Street Wrap

1:27:15

the hundred fifty grand. He

1:27:17

met with the undercover. Got a phone took

1:27:19

to his house. Held it, Gave.

1:27:22

It to another agent the next day and you get paid

1:27:24

for. Be in Korea. And then I said

1:27:26

to me, you know. I. Know you go to

1:27:28

Columbia Lot. I gotta get these checks down there.

1:27:31

If I'd pay for your airfare. Could.

1:27:33

You go down there deliver them to

1:27:35

so so in a million cartel. Who

1:27:37

was. Working. With me and

1:27:39

to toe. Knew. This guy was

1:27:41

somebody important in the main cartels and I

1:27:43

paid him to do it. Well.

1:27:45

Now he's working for me. right?

1:27:48

And now we're becoming

1:27:50

buddies. So. What happens he comes

1:27:52

to meet he goes. In Obama

1:27:55

I know about your family.

1:27:57

I got a problem. I got this.

1:28:00

The guys in chicago me to have fifty

1:28:02

grand and and will pay. We. Just

1:28:04

need somebody to grab while I'm. They. Don't

1:28:06

scare. In get the money. And

1:28:08

I said, well. I. Don't know, You know

1:28:10

how much that's gonna cost you. Now. I

1:28:12

had already talked to. One. Of

1:28:15

my informants who used to collect those types of

1:28:17

deaths and know if he's going to be fifty

1:28:19

percent. So. I told him money or well, I.

1:28:21

Do get some way to do it. Now, but it's gonna

1:28:23

cost you sissy percent of it. He. Goes

1:28:25

well. City presents better than nothing. Yeah, And.

1:28:28

I said okay well. What? If we grab

1:28:30

one among. And somebody says

1:28:32

i don't care. Do. You

1:28:34

want us to go away? And never

1:28:36

said you want us to kill and you just say in and you

1:28:38

want us to go away. Just. Gets

1:28:41

bigger. Mega. Well. That's

1:28:44

gonna cost even more. And

1:28:46

he said well you know and I gotta get

1:28:48

this resolved because. These. Guys think that

1:28:50

they can do it. They know other people

1:28:52

everybody's f gonna pay me Mrs. Now.

1:28:55

Instead of being my enemy, he's coming to

1:28:57

me asking me to do work for him.

1:28:59

Now the Asli, we're not gonna kidnap anybody. And

1:29:02

I kept delaying. That because

1:29:04

it happened near the end of the operation that.

1:29:07

That's how you have to deal with somebody. You've.

1:29:09

Gotta find a way to bring them

1:29:12

as Lincoln did. On. His

1:29:14

team. Show them you trust him

1:29:16

so that they can return. And.

1:29:18

Show trust to you. By the

1:29:20

way, what you're talking about is the guy

1:29:22

said i know about your family you were

1:29:24

using part of your backstop was that you

1:29:27

had mafia connections and there's a funny anecdote

1:29:29

in the book where you go to this

1:29:31

Italian restaurant near states Cousin Dominic is like

1:29:33

if you mess with them will kill you

1:29:35

know who we are can sort of show

1:29:37

that you're connected. I. Connected guy and

1:29:39

so he knew about this yeah and was

1:29:41

like hey, can you leverage this because I

1:29:44

can't go to my own people. To.

1:29:46

Get this dead. Settle. Yeah. And I

1:29:48

always denied to them that the mafia

1:29:51

even existed. Ah, because that's what a

1:29:53

monster.bryce I did. You're right. I had.

1:29:56

I. Had this guy. Is. Name's Alex.

1:29:58

I had Alex come to the T. All.

1:30:00

The Alex always had fifteen different things go on.

1:30:02

He had a suntan lotion company, had a. He.

1:30:05

Was selling clothing. he was doing all kinds of

1:30:07

stuff so he comes their egos boss boss I

1:30:09

mean I the I know you're busy book and

1:30:11

just stopped you from minutes because I better get

1:30:13

back to someone so on something and I go

1:30:15

a yale chaos A driver apologize. Of

1:30:17

Roberto. I need to talk to Alex for

1:30:19

amenities my cousin to take care of things

1:30:22

for me. So. Then he leaves. I

1:30:24

didn't say anything Roberto those to me goes.

1:30:26

Let. Me guess. Sicilian. Brooklyn.

1:30:31

And. Started stealing cars when he was thirteen

1:30:33

I said robert he almost got it right. He

1:30:35

started see on him when he was twelve and

1:30:37

and river I just laughed as but us. So.

1:30:40

They're. The ones who came up

1:30:42

with the idea not me, and

1:30:44

that's attenuate called using passive reinforcements.

1:30:47

You. Never wanna tell somebody you're

1:30:50

a monster. You give them

1:30:52

the passive reinforcements that makes

1:30:54

them. Say. To other

1:30:56

people. He's. A monster. I.

1:30:58

Used to do something similar with dating it.

1:31:00

This is such as southern accent right? It's

1:31:02

like if you tell somebody. I'm.

1:31:04

Kind of as a deal around here. It's like a joke,

1:31:07

right? It's like whoa, Sure, You are sure you would say

1:31:09

that? Yes, I'm very impressed. Whatever disguise know by. But.

1:31:11

If your friend tells them village okay, there's

1:31:13

that element of credibility here. Maybe that's true,

1:31:15

Maybe it's not. You know he didn't tell

1:31:18

me his friend told me. but if they

1:31:20

find out for themselves that your well liked

1:31:22

are you got a successful blaze of whatever

1:31:24

sort of message or try to convey. It's

1:31:27

much more credible because they're the ones they came

1:31:29

up with it, right? A was a you telling

1:31:31

him but wasn't your friend telling him it wasn't

1:31:33

some elaborate show? It was something

1:31:35

they deduced in that that has the

1:31:38

highest level of credibility. You. Got

1:31:40

it. That's it. And. Since. You're

1:31:44

about to hear a preview of the

1:31:46

Jordan a Harbinger show with an undercover

1:31:48

F B I agent posing as an

1:31:51

Islamic terrorist I live with and grew

1:31:53

up with the religion of Islam after

1:31:55

Nine Eleven and now we full well

1:31:58

that this was not the really. That

1:32:00

was being portrayed. I kind of broke

1:32:02

me a little bit and sauce I

1:32:04

was a law enforcement, I spoke Arabic,

1:32:06

I'm a Muslim, and my knee jerk

1:32:08

reaction was to simply health, working undercover

1:32:11

his destiny as an adrenaline rush. Unlike

1:32:13

anything I could describe putting your arm

1:32:15

around someone, telling them that you're their

1:32:17

best friend, getting them to believe. What

1:32:21

attracted me a great deal to this

1:32:23

case? What blew my mind about. He

1:32:27

was arguably one of the smartest, most

1:32:29

brilliant men. I've ever been in front. Of

1:32:49

thing guards over know He

1:32:51

was the epitome of eat

1:32:53

the with going to his.

1:32:56

And he persuaded to ground zero

1:32:58

and he put his arm around

1:33:00

and looked up to where the

1:33:02

towers work and he said hammer

1:33:04

this how needs another nine eleven

1:33:07

who were going to give it.

1:33:13

More. I.

1:33:24

I'm as his in the I have. To.

1:33:30

Hear more from Tom or L. Nori

1:33:32

about what drew him to the exciting

1:33:34

and dangerous life as undercover law enforcement

1:33:36

work. Check out Episode Five seventy Two

1:33:38

of The Jordan Harbinger. So. That's

1:33:42

the at apart one part to out a

1:33:45

few days. If not already, all things rubber

1:33:47

mazer will be in the show. No to

1:33:49

Jordan harbinger.com that includes transcripts, advertisers, deals, discount

1:33:52

codes, ways to support the South. All at

1:33:54

Jordan harbinger.com says deals please. I would love

1:33:56

it If you would consider supporting those who

1:33:58

support the show. Auto. We get our

1:34:01

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1:34:03

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1:34:09

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out to great companion to the South Jordan

1:34:25

harbinger.com Flesh News is where you can find

1:34:27

it. Don't forget six minute networking at Six

1:34:29

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