0:01

Welcome to the Josh Bolton show.

0:05

Interesting and inspiring conversations. And now your host, Josh Bolton.

0:16

So what brings you to the show?

0:16

Why did you want to come on?

0:21

Well, I'm looking at different podcast posts that are focusing in on personal growth, self development. And one of the reasons for that is the I'm finding that podcast hosts are kind of like a step above the the ranks, because it takes time and effort and dedication to actually commit to becoming a podcast host getting it all set up, you know, I'm, in other words, it's, so usually I'm finding the podcast hosts or people that are actually, you know, trying to go to the next step, go the next level, they're kind of a little bit more focused and driven types of individuals. And I noticed you have martial arts training in your background, which obviously means you bring focus, you know, to the to the program as well.

1:13

So that was one of the reasons why I reached out. Awesome. That's, that's awesome.

1:15

Yeah, I've so from my way, you quickly have been picking up because you said Martial Arts and Business, what if what do you see as my show as?

1:25

What do I see your show as what do you interpretated as like a business podcast for a while? Well, I would say I would Well, certainly the way that you've, you've positioned it. I mean, you're you've you've positioned the show, specifically around the idea of business. I mean, martial arts, obviously, is a focusing discipline, right, which is the basically shut out all the noise. And to try to have laser like vision right through the fog of war, so to speak. So and business business can certainly be that out there in the marketplace. So But beyond that, I don't know I have yet to hear your your mind.

2:01

Now. That's about that's about what I've been aiming for. Let's get right into it. Tell me about yourself and what you do. Sure.

2:10

Well, for your audience, my name is Charles Collins, Are we recording now? Yes. Okay. So for your audience, my name is Charles Collins, and I am an author of a collection known as the life craft series. And this is writings and audio files.

2:31

Now, I don't call it a podcast per se, because it is a is a collection of journal entries, so to speak, for those that are interested in listening and reading and understanding this content is applicable to their own lives. And the primary focus of the work is centered around the idea of craftsmanship, which is a, a practice for focus and excellence of execution in pretty much anything one does, and how can we learn from that?

3:04

And how can we apply it to our own lives? Would you like to go in a little bit more detail of crashing ships through history? And how?

3:12

Yeah, through history is a very good question, because that's going to take us on quite an interesting journey.

3:17

Yes. So the the idea of craftsmanship through history, in the writings that I'm now making available, just over the last several months I've started releasing the information is is known as title as the way of craftsmanship. And if you were to liken this to people in the world of martial arts, you might call it the way of Bushido, or some other type of, you know, specific discipline or practice.

3:43

And the way of craftsmanship around the world is actually disguised. Now, that's a really interesting, maybe way of saying things, but craftsmanship, whether it's in business, whether it's in objects made by the hand, whether it's in the intellectual arts, of writing, or sculpture, or any of these types of things. craftsmanship as a fundamental principle is hidden behind all these wonderful works, right? So when I say it's the skies, the way that we actually come into contact with craftsmanship, is not through somebody talking about it, like you and I are having this conversation is actually because we came into contact with something that was created these avy craftsmanship, the mind of the crafts person behind it, and we're not coming into contact with their work. So the crafts person themselves many times is invisible, and we don't necessarily see them but when we come into contact with works in whatever medium they may be, right, and they are well executed, and they're of a signal Quality, then we are experiencing craftsmanship as it is being presented to us by invisible craftspeople. So throughout history and around the world, craftsmanship is disguised or is presented to us in 1000 different variations from the architecture of the ancients to the high levels of culinary art that we're experiencing across the world and, you know, artists in beer and you know, you can just go on and on and on. And even the level of you know, new crafts that are emerging, like podcasting is a new is a new craft that's emerging, and many people are taking it up and over time, it will achieve levels of excellence and have standards just like every other craft does, right? So talking on achieving excellence, would you say that time under the, like time under the stone or time in the whatever craft is more important than the actual quality at first?

6:07

So, is time more important than quality? At first, I think that probably the best answer to your question is time leads to quality.

6:17

Okay, that's always trying to lead to the to sorry, yeah, and I think you're right on the so what we what ends up happening is that when we start removing the disguises of craftsmanship or the faces of craftsmanship or the experiences as you and I have talked about here, right, we started understanding that there are the fundamental principles and time, which is practice. And continuity of practice and continuity of incremental improvement, right, which is also known as Kaizen, these incremental improvements only happen over time, only happen over practice. And they result in the delivering of improved quality.

7:02

So aggi interesting point on the interest increments over time.

7:06

I, like we mentioned earlier with martial arts. When I first started, I thought it was terrible. But it was one of those. It's just like it was such a new thing. I ignored it and went through a couple of ranks. Then suddenly, when I'm around, let's say halfway around, it's called blue belt for that. I noticed suddenly, people were asking me and I'm like, What are you talking about? Like, I'm like, the same person as before. It's like no, like, you're super precise.

7:32

You're making decisions quicker than most people might. Oh, because that's what I was alluding to the time I'm like, it just time I've been here so long. That it just what seems like perfection, you is shipped to me kind of thing. Yeah, I need to keep making it better.

7:46

Yeah. And that is, you know, you're you. So you were get you were now in the way of craftsmanship. Because that is a particular craft, right, which requires mental and physical execution. So let's talk about one of these principles and craftsmanship. And you're going to identify this with immediately. Okay. In craftsmanship, one of the, one of the central principles is the concept of balance and perfection. Right. So perfection doesn't mean you are perfect, it means you are perfecting it is an actual process. And one of the key elements in craftsmanship that those who begin to achieve a level of competence in any particular craft, is the idea of flow. And that at a given moment in time when both their physical and mental are in harmony, and connected and moving as a unified whole, or flow. In other words, you might call it being in the zone, right? You've probably been there where you are executing, you know, a kata or whatever is the approach, you know, the specific, you know, style of your study. You've probably been there, you've probably felt it and you've realized, aha, that was great.

9:01

And now you want more of that. Is that true? Oh, absolutely. It also helps my martial arts instructors like the like for you something year old middle Easterner, just as like a cheerleader ticket, but when you fail, he's like, you suck. Now suck. Let's do it better.

9:18

That's your master. That is right. That's your master and as an apprentice when you were first starting off, so those are the four phases of life as a craft, it follows the four phases of craftsmanship is taught around the world. When you were that early apprentice, and you thought Oh, I'm awkward.

9:35

I don't like this I'm not good at this. And then as you started moving into possibly into your, your blue belt and beyond, right, and you are now passing levels of competence, which at every craft does this right? You then started go ahead season it's like a sentence then it's craft journey work, journey journey, man and then master right? Then mentor okay.

9:55

Those are the four phases. So when you Yeah, so when you're in your masters workshop, which is that dojo or studio however you would, you would call that. And that master was, you know, smack, you know, man on the back of the hand or you know, you don't know No, no, you know, do this again, right? They got your attention, they got you to focus and get the the cobwebs in the noise out of your head. And teaching you to focus is a critical component of craftsmanship.

10:29

Yeah, we have a lot of stuff he used to do. He doesn't do anymore, especially being a California half the stuff he did do so oh, my God will never fly anymore. It's illegal. Pretty much. Yeah.

10:40

Like we from the old schools.

10:40

That's some from you know, from the old schools, depending on the craft. So back to your earlier question about craftsmanship around the world.

10:48

You know, craftsmanship has been executed for all of human history. From the time from the time of the storytellers, who were the original craftsmen and crafts, women, you know, sitting around at night looking into the sky, and someone says, What is that and all of a sudden, this imagination would explode. And someone would begin telling this story rank crafting this story, this idea of his message. I mean, it's been around forever.

11:15

And depending upon those who were asked, Well, can you now Teach me like those who came to you in the bluebell phase and started saying, Can you teach me It depends because if that master craftsperson, whatever the trade was, was not also skilled. In the next level of teaching apprentices and journeyman and women, the trade, sometimes they were very harsh.

11:38

Sometimes they were not necessarily good teachers, because they hadn't been trained in those particular skills. But nonetheless, that's the way you learn, actually, so his approach is, like putting your time perfect your stuff, but he's like, it's actually, when you're high enough, you now have to start, it's not like, because there's like red dragon, karate, and all that they force you to be a teacher. It's not like that.

12:00

It's like, if you truly want to master stuff quicker, you have to know how to teach it. He's like, he's like, that's easy.

12:07

That's if you really want to get to your black belt, which I finally did, after 14 years.

12:13

He's like, you have to teach it.

12:13

Because then you will look at it from all angles from the beginner who sees it as the most impossible while now you're like, it's a piece of Sam, what are you worried about kind of thing.

12:27

You just described the way of craftsmanship. And you just described it in. So this is the fundamental work that's been done over the last 30 going on 35 years now is to peel away, quote, The disguises or faces of craftsmanship, as their practice in different trades and disciplines and right martial art, you know, is very particularly an extremely well structured body of knowledge than there are processes and tools and instruments, whether they're, you know, samurai swords or the hand in the feet.

12:56

Oh, yeah, he that guy knows so much. I've told him like, we need to film your knowledge, because not all of us are going to be able to like, remember it, kind of thing. And he's getting up there in his age, he's not old or dying anytime soon, but to see, it's gonna take me like 50 days of just being there eight hours a day to record all your knowledge kind of thing. And he's like, I don't want go ahead, please.

13:21

I know. I told him like, I know, you don't want to do you want to keep the tradition of passing it down by verbal? But if I don't know the context of the forum, how can I pass it on kind of thing? I could be teaching him a terribly shitty form. But from based off what I remember, that's the only thing with him right now. Mike, dude, you have too much knowledge. We can't let this go.

13:42

So let's let's get into what you've just described, because in in the traditions of craftsmanship around the world, once again, this one we go into, what are the tools that we use?

13:55

What were the methods that are used for master craftsmen, right to transmit that knowledge to the journeyman, downstream and the journeyman down to the apprentices downstream? And there are two very specific ways one is this verbal or oral tradition that you were just describing. And this is used in trades and crafts all over the world. And when I say trade and crafts, I'm talking about anything from studying law and architecture down to martial arts or cooking and you know, brickmaking I mean, everything is a craft. And the part the element of the oral tradition.

14:30

In some cases, the tradition itself is so strong that participants or those who practice that craft won't break that tradition. No, it's got to be oral it's got to go this way because that's the way it's always been done, so to speak right. Now there are some in trades and traditions that that may break that and adopt other ways of doing it. For example, Bruce Lee and G. kundo. One of his Primary principles was, I'm tired of following tradition for traditions sake, I need and and you then have practitioners any given trade and craft that then move outside of it and adopt all other elements from other trades and crafts to help them improve and take that trade or craft to the next level. And in many trades and crafts around the world, one of the things that they would do was use what's called the Masters journal. Now, if you've ever seen any like Chinese martial arts films, oftentimes you'll see these Shaolin priests or whatever that are, you know, in, in the monastery, and they are looking around for all these little books and journals that have been left up in the rafters and hidden in places to pull out where there were no, right. So you're asking about wanting to do that, with your master, you're looking to record, right and create the Masters journal.

15:53

And I wish you good luck, because I hope you can do it.

15:58

He's recently coming to the realization that he can't teach us because he has forms now that the his original master died, and no one else knows it. So it's like, I'm like, dude, if you die, then the whole form is dead. That's right, we can at least save it. We might not have you like sitting next to us, like dammit, your foots off by three degrees, but we at least know what to do. Right.

16:19

Right. So this then brings us to another element in your original question about the historical global tradition in the way of craftsmanship, which has to do with the continuity of craftsmanship. So that it craftsmanship becomes eternal craftsmanship outlives the individual craftsmen or crafts woman, because they've done the things you're talking about. And that is to record the Masters journal, whether it's videos, whether it's in writing, or whatever the case may be, because then that takes the entire body of learning down to future generations, so that they can partake of that knowledge, once an individual practitioner has, you know, gone to the grade beyond, so to speak, right? So it's very important that and that's usually what happens, someone like yourself, arises within a school, which is where you are, you're in a school of practice, and takes it upon themselves to realize this needs to go into a journal, a Master's journal, in order that it becomes the heritage for future generations. So you may be not knowing it or not, are practicing craftsmanship, exactly the way it's been practiced for 1000s of years, I had no idea. It's just it's I grew up with in a union family.

17:41

So they've always said perfect, like, do your best never like, never go less than 100%. Unless it's truly a project you can't give more than whatever percentage, but it's like, I've just always known once you hit a mark, you got to beat it by at least 1% kind of thing.

17:58

A union family, you grew up in the family of trades and craftsmen.

18:02

My father is a locksmith, old school, old school, and he has learned his trade, he probably knows everything about the materials, the processes, the procedures, you know, I mean, and now the question is, how did he learned his craft? And how do others then learn that craft behind them? And this is the way of craftsmanship? That's the fundamental principle. So the question, then, how come we can apply those structures to our own life?

18:29

That's a good point. Would you like to go into more details about that? Sure.

18:33

So I started to see that this is a such an important human way of doing things, this organizing knowledge, then teaching the processes and continuous improvement, so that your work, the final, the final gauge, of everything we do is the work that we put up in front. And as it is a quality, and does it serve others? right or not?

19:01

Right? And then it comes down to well, if that is the principle of craftsmanship, then the next logical question is if we try to practice life as a craft, what's the curriculum? Right, because the larger part of life, right, each craft, each trade has a well structured curriculum. It's all the forms that your master knows and has, that's the curriculum, right? And it's going to take you significant time to learn that entire curriculum and then and then practice it, and then eventually, you know, perfect it. Well, what are all the different topics that make up what we will call life as a curriculum? And how can they be organized in a simplified way so that we can then say, all right, for the four phases of my life from apprentice through mentor, how can I go about living life as a craft and eventually practice the different different disciplines if you will, across that curriculum. So that started when my daughter was six years old. And I was trying to figure out what do I need to teach this little person? Right. And so the curriculum was created. And in the, in the areas where I'm making the curriculum available, it's really more than the curriculum, it's a structure, you know, how you have there are the different forms that are available to you for learning at each different belt, as you go up through your right. And you don't learn the higher forms until you get to the higher belts, correct?

20:34

Well, in this particular case, it basically says there are five master categories, we call the five elements, and that almost every topic that you can think of that you'd be interested in life, you know, from family heritage, to then managing a family with skill, which is like managing a workshop, you know, family finances, you the human being, and then finally, the tools of life, those five master categories, is the framework, so that you can look and say, all right, well, then if I look at my life out in front of me as a continuum of four phases that goes through my 80s, you know, before I, I lift off and go to the next place, then I can look at these five elements or these five categories, and select through my life, different topics in those categories to continuously improve and make a masterpiece of my life.

21:28

Yes, yes. That's just That's beautiful.

21:34

That's the ultimate goal. It is.

21:36

And it's one thing I've also been realizing, as I've been interviewing different people.

21:39

In summary, that's because I've had a few CEOs on that's exactly what they say, it's like, we have certain criteria, once we meet it, we improve it, then once we improve ourselves, we improve our business, which then improves our employees lives, kind of thing.

21:56

So you have just now brought it right into where all of this originally starts. Right. So when you talk about the business side, and you talk about the chief executive, and or any of the others that are in the organization, historically, if we look back into that, what you're looking at is the structure of the craftsmans workshops, as they've existed from the beginning of time, right. And in most trades, and occupations and professions, an individual had to go through apprenticeship and then journey work journey work is when they go out into the world and try to, you know, show themselves as as a craftsman or craftswoman of their trade, and to gain a reputation for excellence and quality, right and delivering their work in the marketplace.

22:42

And at an appropriate time, a tournament or journey woman can submit a work to the guild. And the guild is a collection of peers who are going to judge the work for quality standards and functionality. And if the work meets the standards, they'll be admitted to the guild as a master craftsman or a Master craftswoman. That's the next that's the third phase like the third belt in the program, right? So what happens once they become a master, only then were they allowed to consider opening their own business, their own workshop, which in this case, become a CEO. Okay, but they they wouldn't let them open that workshop until they had gone through masters training on how to run a workshop. Right. Now today, we call that a Masters of Business Administration.

23:37

Technically, that is where that entire heritage comes from. And the master craftsmen or crafts woman had to have the skills and the process and the knowledge to run a workshop because a workshop was a commercial endeavor. And they had to show that they could demonstrate the skills to run that workshop properly. So that it was commercially successful, and that the journeymen and apprentices that worked in that workshop, and that's all of your managers and your workers and all the way down in any business knew that they could work in a workshop that was commercially viable, and they could make the living from it. Otherwise they were going to be out on the street. So the history of craftsmanship as a function and workshop management is is absolutely not only important to businesses, but this is a very important message to take back into those that would aspire to be CEOs of a business right and or senior managers of a business because if they don't understand the principles of craftsmanship as it applies to the management or the operation of a workshop, which is a company. Now I don't know about you, but I've been the consultant to hundreds of company is for operating performance management of the company, and I've gone into companies large and small way their absolute chaos. They have no idea how one thing is connecting to another and they're flying by it every day by the seat of their pants, right. And they go, yeah, okay, you guys figure it out. You're smart. You figure it out? Well, you've just abdicated your entire responsibility. Mr. CEO.

25:20

I mean, I don't know if you've had conversations like that.

25:23

No, actually, most of them are very active and involved. A lot of them actually say the best of the best is the ones who don't just stand there and say, Oh, good luck kind of thing. They actually go in the trenches.

25:34

They, one of the guys I was interviewing, he says that he knew a CEO that move went instead of the 12th floor of the building, he put it right behind the administration desk, for his death, his office. So he saw all the nuts and bolts the crazy shit they went on. Absolutely.

25:52

He made it a point. Once he was in it to make his rounds, he checked in on the directors.

25:56

Like all the different p he checked in on all the nurses, at least he tried to least once a week, if not every two weeks, he check in with the nurses, because that's a lot, a lot of nurses for him. But they said in like two months, the whole hospital just improved. They said the previous one manager, which is the CEO was like, Oh, good luck. I'm on the 12th floor. Do this, I expect this done this percentage done by next week? Well, that's there it is. I mean, that's the those who think they get elevated to a state of royalty, versus those who see themselves as craftsmen and craftswomen. Right, as mass masters running a workshop, and you've just described that.

26:39

Exactly. And that goes on all the royalty people. I mean, that's like, you know, it's like we see on TV, they're running the kingdom, and the kingdom is starving and upside down or whatever. But these guys and gals are running around and you know, having parties, yeah, eating the best food. And they say, Oh, wait, you're starving. Whoa, that's good luck with you.

26:58

That's right. And that's how they run it. You right, and that is so this message about craftsmanship is that they don't use this word very often, right out in the business community, except when the business community is talking about or referring to the product content that they might be putting out, you know, it's it's become a Vogue term in the automobile manufacturing industry, as of late, and they're releasing it in their advertisements, and so forth, and so on. But if you take craftsmanship, historically, into its deeper roots in business, it's the way in which the master craftsmen or crafts woman who's now appointed to run a workshop as to whether or not they've been trained and skilled, and they do workshop management, as with the same level of quality and skill as they produce their craft. And that's a very big difference.

27:55

Oh, it is. And there's a lot more responsibility. And there's theoretical risks that most people unless they're like, on the latest 12th floor, I don't even have to look at it, I just get my $500,000 check for the year screw them kind of thing.

28:11

That's right. That's exactly right. And so if you are looking to take forward into the community, you know, these concepts for running an operating business look deeper into the way of craftsmanship.

28:24

And the way that a master craftsman is trained, I mean, I was just in a conversation with a organization out of Iceland, which is a master craftsman, they have a degree in master craftsmanship. And the degree in order to earn this degree, you have to first be licensed as a master craftsman in a particular trade, occupation profession, whatever it is, and that they have to recognize that then you can go into training for the degree and master craftsmanship in order to be given license to then run a business.

29:05

So what does that usually run on like 710 years?

29:09

The master craftsmanship program is two to three years.

29:12

Oh, okay. Because that's the that's that's to run. That's to run the workshop. But to become the Craftsman or crafts woman in a particular trade can run anywhere from four to seven years, depending on more.

29:24

Yeah, that's about average, just like out here in California.

29:28

There's a local linemen union. I was thinking to join them because during the pandemic, am I going to do more income? So like I was up but uh, so they are very old school they even talk the whole lineage of craftsmanship. So you're an apprentice, but you're on call and you make the moment we had to call you you have to drop everything come to us. That was right. That's the that's the okay. But I like I don't personally like on call because it could be like three in the morning and I'm like, What? I have to work. Dang it.

29:57

Yeah. What was he talking about? Was minimum two years as an apprentice while on call five years to get to journeyman and then there was an error like four years to be the master, but exactly how you said they as a journeyman every so often, instead of you presented them they would actually come out and observe you. So, but it's similar concept and it's just one of those I like the story but I'm like, I don't want to be on call so I'm not gonna join that's it. So each trade each occupation each profession will have effectively those same belts, so those same stages, but you may linger longer in some stages and not in others, right and depending upon the stage, but apprentice usually is carrying water for whatever trade you know, occupation, it is the apprentices carry water and they get the literal shitty jobs they do they carry the shit buckets. Yeah, they do.

31:03

Yeah. So let's go into the your your history I was reading on your profile you have you worked for a bigger company, like a big phone company.

31:14

No telephone company. Now was that what what were you looking at like a LinkedIn profile or something? was yours on the site. But either way, what was your reason, your lineage up to writing your book? Well, your line of work to get here my life? Yeah, my line of work pretty much throughout most of my career was I was involved and have been involved very much in international trade finance, which is one main pillar in my career working with international banks, and trade finance, have, you know, people around the world financing their trade, you know, shipments of, you know, XYZ from one country to another, and the trade, financing, the trade and so forth. So that took me all over the world, which is where I looked at a lot of a lot of craftsmanship traditions, because this started for me back when I was in my mid 30s. And the other main principle is what's referred to as enterprise or business performance management. And, and that is a, that is a trade or an occupation, which deals with business processes, and business process design and business process redesign and effectively is in our conversation. It is taking the workshop and scaling it up to businesses that are significantly larger and distributed around the world and how to get the entire business to function as a well oiled machine like a single workshop.

32:42

Okay.

32:46

So for the trade thing, and it's actually interesting. I've, I've heard different like, because I used to work security for a truck gate. So a lot of I would talk to a lot of bigwigs in the trucking industry. And that's one of them, they actually say that, like they have this one guy that literally facilitates all the trades, all the loads kind of thing. So how would one approach a job like that? Like someone like me, no education, no college degree or experience?

33:14

What is the methods that would be needed to get to that, that trade kind of thing?

33:22

So that's, that's a great question. And I think you're you're you're probably referring mostly to what you just described, there's the logistics manager who's involved in the actual the trucking, the movement of the materials, I was involved in banking at the finance level. Okay, words, if organization and China had 10 billion widgets of this, and folks in Australia or more England, we're going to be buying it, they finance that purchase that trade through a particular International Bank, and move both of those products from one place to another. So the finance is elements of it was the international trade component. That's what I worked in. But to your question, your question is universal. Okay.

34:06

And, and really the the the correct answer, I believe, is in our trades, occupations and professions. There over time, what happens is a school of practitioners arises that that the schools become the centers of learning of the trade, they capture all the knowledge about the trade, they learn, they capture the processes of the trade, and the tools that are used in that trade, in this case, logistics. And then what eventually happens is guilds or societies arise, it could be a union, it could be any other number of names in which members of that trade joined together.

34:49

And that that Center also becomes the center of learning and continuous improvement in that particular trade. So if you were interested in You could look up, quote, trade schools in that particular category that you would be interested in, you could look up trade unions in that category that you're interested in. So there and now, the good news is, in today's day and age, there are a number of easy to find on the internet quick searches that would take you to sources, either remote or in your neighborhood whereby you could enter into and become an apprentice. Yeah. And start at the beginning, just like a white belt, you know. And, I mean, we got the advent of phones, you could just literally your fingertips away from anything.

35:36

That's true. Absolutely. Yeah.

35:36

And so it's a wonderful time in age to be living because the key now becomes sorting through the charlatans. Yeah, sorting through all the fake websites and people that put themselves up as being masters have this and that, and they are masters of nothing. And getting lying.

35:59

They are, that's what you need to go. That's why you need to search out your mentors with great care, just like you did with your master. And and then we're out their doorstep. Right and never let them sleep.

36:11

Never let him sleep. And usually, if it's a good match, they will totally understand it's like the Thank you. I just need like, two hours, two hours of sleep. And I'll be right back to you kind of thing.

36:22

Absolutely. Yeah. Because for me, I'm trying to teach myself it's funny. I'm trying to teach myself while you are doing the logistics and money in between things. So I'm learning, trading. And but also, I realized within that, because I was going to stock market, I'm like, Oh, wait, I'm learning how to observe a business. So why don't I just study business, as I'm studying technical analysis kind of thing. And that led to a whole loophole there. But it's the that's one thing I've noticed, it's like, I want a better job. I know I can bring value to them. But it's like, we expect you a COVID say, Oh, you need a college degree. It's like, I don't have a paper version of the college degree kind of thing.

37:05

So that's where we get into why the traditions of craftsmanship, which is how you opened our discussion today, why the traditions of craftsmanship are very much alive and well in our trades and occupations and why they exist. And the paper degree from what they call a certified or an accredited learning or teaching institution becomes the credential, that a workshop, meaning an employee or a company is looking for, as an initial vetting process to determine whether or not the person who's presenting themselves to their door is in fact, a trained journeymen or journey woman in the particular trade or craft that they're presenting themselves to be. Right if you if and and it's important, because the Accreditation of that credential, the The, the, that it's authentic, and that they really did learn that trade. This is the reason why this is the reason why they came up with those things is because too many people they found you know, were knocking on the doors trying to present themselves as I can do this. And I can do that. God knows they needed the job. And they were, you know, honest, human beings. But there was no way of telling whether or not they really had the skills, right? No, it wasn't until they get on the job. And through trial and error. They realize, oh, gosh, you know, this person doesn't know what they're doing, right? I mean, look at you, you know, you've gone through and now you have levels of skill and accreditation from your mask from your school that you've been in. Somebody comes to the door and says, Oh, I'm a I'm a black belt in this style of that style. And you say okay, present me you you want to be a teacher here present to me what you know, and in five seconds you're going No you're not.

38:48

That's happened before my instructor went to go get us pizza because we did a big kids like boot camp, back when we were all allowed to like meet.

38:55

But it was one of those. This guy he's like, Oh, I'm a Muay Thai expert. Like I am the highest rank. I am the dawn of the studio. My Oh, that's great.

39:08

Oh my god. You know what? I've never actually gotten a fighter muy Thai before. Let's do it. It seems like we're gonna go with do gloves. I'm like, No, I said fight, not spar. And he looked at me I'm like, okay, so he gets into stance just like this. I'm like, No, no, get out of studio.

39:23

Like you don't even know what a fighting stance is.

39:31

There it is. Right. So now you take that and you bring that back in on yourself. Because this is something and every person listening to this. This podcast is going to relate to all of us at one time or another in our lives, has studied one or several things that are crafts in and of themselves. We've spent a significant amount of time learning them, practicing them, perfecting them and when you have a achieve that level of skill and mastery, it produces a really important sense of pride within you. Because you know that you have this particular level of skill, and you carry yourself in a very particular way because of that now take that and move that to another topic that's on your workbench right now. Right? That topic might be that particular career for earning money for for income, and say, which of these careers you have to name it? And you have to get clear on it because there are so many do, I want to dedicate that my same capability, my same focus and become a black belt? And you can do this because you've already done it. So you have the template already in your mind and your body? Now you just have to find the next topic on your workbench to apply that to.

40:58

Absolutely no, I agree with that. It's the it's the weird mindset where it's like never fully settle for what happens like my instructor he wants to get me God he wants to get me to third stripe third black belt. But he's so he's teaching me like I'm six black belt, because he's like, if we just overfill you, by the time you go in for your whatever belt, they'll just you just be like, oh, there's a walk in a park. I did this yesterday. What are you talking about kind of thing. But he's like, I also realized, that's how you work.

41:28

He's like, I have to give you just a bunch of like candy and say figure it out. I don't like I'm happy. Let's do it.

41:38

Right. So he's paying attention to you as an individual craftsperson in the way that he's teaching you. Not so much necessarily that everybody's the same cookie cutter and I have to do it the same way. Right. So so you're learning something from him about his teaching style that you will probably put into practice at some Oh, and I've already put it in practice and multiple things where it's like at work. Everyone's like, You're so kind in. You just listen, Michael Yeah, cuz I don't know what you want. So I'm not gonna be just standing there giving you orders. It's like, tell me what you need. And I'll figure it out. And they're like, wow, the same. That's literally what my instructor does. He just he'll observe, observe us for a while and just be like, so from what your body language is telling me you have no idea what you're doing at this point. I'm like, Yes, this is he's like, Alright, we're gonna fix it now.

42:29

That's right. And that's another element of craftsmanship. Going back to our opening conversation. The the Japanese in Japan, Craftsman crafts person is known as a shokunin.

42:42

Okay, and that translates more like skilled artisan, right. But it takes up to 30,000 hours of practice in a particular trading craft before they can present themselves to be considered and receive the title of Takumi.

43:01

Which is and I know that the 10,000 rule, then no 30,000 30,000 the 10,000 rule is primarily around that it takes about that long for somebody to become well executing in a particular trade or craft. Right.

43:21

Okay, and in different traditions around the world. So they'll say it takes like maybe 10,000 hours right to learn something. I mean, that's it's a generalization, but what is trying to drill home is people just very few people are born, you know, concert pianist in their minds, right? I mean, there is practice, yeah, you got to know the rules before you can actually go deeper kind of thing.

43:43

And you have to build the skills, you have to learn the skills, you have to work with the tools, right. So they go on and on and on into this. But the the critical element is that there is a sense of social well being that separates the craftsperson from the artisan, which means once they get to a particular level, they recognize that the work that they are going to be doing is not only just for their own personal growth and development and a sense of pride and accomplishment and well being, but that work has to be put out into the community, for the community to experience and to benefit by, and that if you don't put that work out so that the community can experience and benefit by then you have not yet achieved true craftsmanship that you have been taught, obviously, in the way that people were saying, oh, you're kind and you listen, you've been saying to them, tell me what it is that you need, so that I may present that work to you so that you may benefit by it, right? Yeah, in companies, they may call it good customer service or something along those lines, but those elements, so if you look at that, very quickly, you can see how many people No matter how much they've studied a particular trade or craft, or doing it all about them, yes, yes. They're just, it's just, it's just all about that, Oh, I'm this or I'm that or I know YouTube and social media is flooded with these types of people. And they're poisoning the well, because they're not teaching true craftsmanship in any way.

45:23

They're not. So actually, I wanted to get into that with social media. So you touched on it. So what do you think with the advent of social media and like, do you think it is depriving us of the drive and the determination to actually learn a skill compared to all I pay this guy $1,000 and I'm a master of whatever.

45:41

Yeah. I think social media is nothing else but a channel through which we as human beings can communicate with one another. So in that regard, I in that regard as a tool, which is the fifth element of life is craft as a tool, if one learns why the tool was built, how the tool functions, and then one learns to skillfully use the tool, then functionally, there's nothing wrong with it unless the tool is misused, and you know, hurt someone or or hurt oneself.

46:14

However, as a communication tool, what it allows to happen is an ancient human practice, which is charlatanism, which is you know, Dr. Johnson rolling into town with his wagon, and he's got, you know, some snake oil tonic on the back of it, and he's selling it to everybody in the, you know, in the in the frontier, you know, this will cure you know, full cure headaches.

46:45

Your brother is dying to drink some snake oil, he'll live forever.

46:48

So snake oil has been sold forever since the beginning of human time, and their snake oil salesmen and women all over social media.

46:56

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Like, God, my instructor recently has gotten into CBD. Oil. So we joke with him because he's, he can literally sell anything to anyone. thing. So we're like, so you're now the modern day snake oil salesman. You're like, you want some CBD? I give it to you.

47:11

$100. Oh, we're like, but the only difference is yours is actually it does work.

47:21

It does have something right.

47:21

Yeah. So yeah, that's how I'd answer that question. And the problem is snake oil people if I'm, Wow, this is so easy. Why should I work? When I can pretend to be someone successful? and get people giving me money for it? That That's way better than putting in the time to become a craftsman or crafts woman. I mean, why? So there's so that.

47:44

So that means that you and I and anyone else? This is why I say podcast hosts are interesting.

47:54

That's why I'm reaching out to podcast hosts is because they're ones that lift themselves, I'm noticing are lifting themselves on sound that's just gonna listen anything and everything.

48:03

You know, they're going the next step to refine and boil down and acquire the skills to see through the snake oil sales, you know, woman or man, you know, very quickly and say, Oh, absolutely.

48:13

There's the boy. There's the dorm. Muy Thai master. There's the door seal. Yeah.

48:18

Yeah. It's like the Okay, buddies. Like you can leave now.

48:21

You don't actually know what you're doing. That's right.

48:25

Yeah. And that's one of those.

48:25

As I love first was learning back in March when the market crashed happen. That's what inspired me to learn about business and stocks. Because I'm Mike, Kate, two people are literally dancing in the corner.

48:39

Like they just figured out what sex is again, and two people are crying like it's the worst thing, since I don't know.

48:45

They're just terrible insert here. And I'm sitting there going, why is one person excited? One person sad. So I started looking it up. And I realized, Oh, they at least had enough knowledge they might have not executed to realize, Oh, you buy now. And then the person that's crying is gonna buy it when it's too high kind of thing.

49:02

You just said it knowledge and execution.

49:06

Right? And that's where, when I was first learning it, I was watching YouTube, and I'm like, okay, and I'm watching all these guys. And they were just saying like, oh, buy my $1,000 class, and I'll teach you everything.

49:15

So it was the I didn't pull the trigger, but I'm like, oh, okay, so I looked him up. It was smart enough to actually like, oh, is I'm not just around and Joe Blow an actual scam. And they're like, yes, like, oh, okay, so then I tried to refine it more.

49:29

And I realized to the point, I really want to learn what I'm doing by a book, read it because they have no reason to lie to you. Because you paid them. It is their craft their trade kind of thing. And if they lie, they'll be easy and they'll ruin their reputation. They'll never get a sale again.

49:47

You just said so many important things. Right? So in in the way of craftsmanship going back again to drilling into this because it's such an important and I use the word and think about craftsmanship, as a Word, and we're going to talk about the things you just said. Okay?

50:01

Do you craftsmanship, you don't know what trade I'm referring to. craftsmanship, you don't know what gender I'm referring to. I don't know what race summer for. It's universal, right? And in there about craftsmanship is the teaching about if you fake it, and you present yourself as a journeyman or journey woman to the marketplace, and you present them with work, and that work fails, because it was not built with quality or training or skill, it's going to be an enormous hit to your reputation, which is what you just described, right about that man and the selling and the or the lady selling the book. And that hit on the reputation may be very difficult to repair, or not at all repair, because people might be just totally unforgiving and say, forget it, you're dead at this. You're, no one's ever going near you again.

51:00

So in the practice of craftsmanship, one of the things is if you put in the time, if you do the processes, if you perfect the skills and you put out high quality work, you're going to be able to trade and that you're going to be able to practice that craft and trade for the rest of your life.

51:16

Right? If you if you want to write because you'll have a great reputation behind you because the quality of your work is what speaks for itself.

51:24

Right? Yeah, that's that's literally what I was trying to lead Lou to because like, in my work, one of my one of my two managers, I have an assistant in the main manager, the Assistant realizes I'm studying business and trading and all the boring stuff. And so he politely he just he talks to me. So one day, he just kind of lets he's ordering liquor because no one's allowed to order liquor except the managers. So we got talking about trends, because he knows I'm very into business and trends. He's like, so what do you see happening kind of thing.

51:56

And so as he's shooting away, I told him about the trend with lockdowns, this and that energies, cycles, all that. And he's like, I have no idea what you're talking about kind of thing. And he's like, Alright, sounds good. You're happy kind of thing. So apparently, he had a meeting with his money manager, because he gets like 5060 K a year, he has less stuff left over. So he wants his money working. So he told that guy.

52:23

What I said, and he said, the money manager, strapped whatever he was doing and said, Who is this kid? What College has he gone to? He's like, it's just a kid with some books. He's like, he's talking Harvard level stuff. I'm not even thinking that far ahead. He's like, I'm just making sure you don't lose money. This kid's already making sure you don't lose money, and making money. And then the third step ahead of that. He's like, this kid smart. He's going places. And that's where he came back a couple weeks later, and remember to tell me he's like, whatever it is, you're doing.

52:54

The my, our money manager really wants to talk to you kind of thing.

52:59

So have you spoken to that money manager yet? I never got his number. But yeah, that's the same thing with my instructor, I told him a very similar meal. And he has a hedge fund manager. And then like a money manager that does real estate. He's told him same thing. I just told him, my assistant manager, and the hedge fund manager actually said, I don't care if he has College.

53:21

This kid's thinking farther than me. And he's accurate. Because now that I think about it, he sees it before it's happening. I need to talk to him. So I've been bugging my master. I'm like, Dude, what's his never kind of thing.

53:34

So potentially, through a conversation with that Craftsman or crafts woman as it may be, they may lead you to an apprenticeship in a place where you can now more formally get into exactly that line of trade or craft that you'd like to explore.

53:50

Yeah, yeah, that's actually the thing I've realized, for me, it's, I originally went younger Josh 16 is like screw that I'm not getting an office job. I'm not gonna be like, whatever. Now I'm realizing what suits me best though, for my skills, sadly, is the office job is the higher level thinking is strategic. So Mike, alright, sorry, little Josh in my head, you have to do that kind of thing.

54:13

That's what you know, we become masterpieces over time. So as we continue to work on ourselves as a masterpiece in the making, and we are craftsmen and crafts woman of our own life, right, because we're making a masterpiece of our own life.

54:29

Otherwise, you let yourself be pushed around by the fortunes of life and the winds and other human beings. And you're not going to end up a masterpiece, you're going to end up a car wreck. I mean, cuz you're going to be dented all over the place, as you start perfecting, and practicing your life as a craft.

54:49

And we talked earlier about those five stages, those five elements, those five areas of practice, which career and income is only in that one area called the human being You're going to change over time. And the topics that interest you that you bring onto your workbench at any given time are going to change and they are going to inform, and they are going to help you create the unique masterpiece that is your life. Right right combination of the martial artists, and the strategic thinker and all of these other elements. You will you will become and and and the beauty behind it is is when you are consciously crafting your life as you go through and not only we have great and continually growing pride in yourself as you see yourself becoming a masterpiece, because you're only in the journey work phase of life, I would say you're somewhere between 25 and 45.

55:45

Yeah, yeah, I'm already in the I'm in the I'm in the mentorship, phase of life 65 and beyond. Okay, so you have phases, yet to go through, and your masterpiece is going to continue to perfect just like your belts, until you get to black and then Dawn's you know beyond. Right, right. So keep that in mind that all of these things that are coming to pass these topics are making you uniquely your own masterpiece, everybody's a slightly different combination. That's why, you know, we can all continuously be variations on the theme, because the ingredient mixture, and each one of us is slightly different.

56:25

You've got two cups of martial arts and one cup of finance, you know, somebody else might have 10 cups of finance and two cups of martial arts. Oh, very similar, but the ingredients, right? Absolutely. Yeah, it's, that's one thing, as I've noticed, because I've had a couple of hire like just the C suite in general, actually, I'm missing a CEO, but all them super different. But the same thing, same basic principles, they need to have this to have this. And one of that. Now, if they want to add a little extra to the first pot, that's fine kind of thing. Right? That was brilliant. I'd like to cut it there anything you want to plug on your way out? Well, I definitely need to get you on in the future.

57:11

Sure, we can Yeah. And in the future, then we can we can drill down into, you know, one of the five elements and and how that works, or you know, the different phases of life. And there are definite things that you do in each of those phases.

57:25

So we can Yeah, we can carry on and continue. Because this is the kind of thing I'm hoping for is that people through hosts like you can go in and learn the background. What because when they come and see my work, they're going to as we teach them craftsmanship, they're going to see the results of my work, the Craftsman isn't visible, they won't see me know, they'll only see the results of my work. But sometimes you want to hear the thought process from the craftsperson behind the scenes. So the answer to your question is my life masterpiece.com. Okay, is a URL they can use. And they'll come into contact with the mass masters journal, which is called Life masterpiece journal. And that's where they can start learning about the, you know, the different phases of life and the elements and so forth. And then, you know, to your, to your timeframe, you you might your I might get caught on a particular article or an audio article that I've put in there that you might say, well, I want to talk about that next time. And then we'll drill down into that.

58:30

Absolutely, yeah, I'll definitely do some homework on your site and your stuff to go for next time. I'll also shoot you an email. So if there's any links that you didn't list or like view tubes or just specials, I'll just I'll shoot you an email so you can send the extras. Excellent. Wonderful.

58:46

Thank you. Stay safe.