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0:30

I am unwilling to give up. But

0:33

I will start over from scratch

0:35

as many times as it takes to

0:38

get where I want to be. I just want to make

0:40

sure you will get knocked down, but just make sure you

0:42

don't get knocked out. So

0:44

your only choice should be, go focus on

0:47

what you can control. Hi

0:49

everyone and welcome to the Kara of Golden

0:51

show. So join me each

0:53

week for inspiring conversations with some

0:55

of the world's greatest leaders. We'll

0:58

talk with founders, entrepreneurs, CEOs,

1:00

and really some of the

1:03

most interesting people of our

1:05

time. Can't wait to

1:07

get started. Let's go.

1:10

Let's go. Hi everyone,

1:12

it's Kara Golden from the Kara Golden

1:15

show and I'm so excited to have

1:17

my next guest here. He is a

1:19

return guest, I should mention.

1:21

So we have Shawn Nelson, who

1:24

is the founder and CEO

1:26

of the furniture manufacturer

1:28

called Lovesack. And if you

1:30

haven't bought a Lovesack yet, you

1:32

definitely need to do that. But the key

1:35

thing that we're going to talk about today

1:37

is this brand new incredible book called Let

1:39

Me Save You 25 Years. And I

1:43

don't know if it'll save you 25

1:45

years or it will save you a lifetime,

1:47

but definitely the title of this book

1:50

says it all as Shawn knows

1:52

from experience having encountered some

1:55

little many hidden or unanticipated

1:58

difficulties along the way. Way

2:00

since you started his company.

2:02

Love staff more than two

2:04

decades ago. It's such a

2:06

great read and I'd definitely

2:09

a very, very beautiful, almost.

2:11

Ah coffee table block of it's

2:13

really super dies Some excited as

2:16

Sean back to. Talk

2:18

a little bit more on the show

2:20

about all of the difference. Aspects

2:22

of the park including the great lesson

2:24

the come on with that so welcome

2:27

Sean, How are you. So good! Thanks

2:29

for having me. Yeah. Super

2:31

excited! So at first I

2:33

live for you. For anybody

2:35

who's not. Familiar with a lump

2:37

sat at. Maybe you can just

2:39

insert have a background on a

2:41

company? Yeah, the The Switch version

2:43

is. The hence the

2:45

title of the book. It's been a twenty five

2:48

years saga. We started. As. A giant

2:50

not been bad company we we make

2:52

these you know. The. Bean bags full

2:54

of shredded foam. They. Could fill the

2:56

back the trucks made doesn't cause of the side

2:59

hustle. Got a

3:01

big order, forced me to build a sack

3:03

for using farm equipment. Crazy stories There are

3:05

some of which we impact on our first

3:08

round on your podcast and his inner unpacked.

3:10

A deeply in the book of has

3:13

a gory details photos to go with

3:15

the stuff you know a he buster

3:17

he grinder farm equipment used to shred

3:19

farm and wanting to keep going after

3:21

completing that big Ordered right out of

3:23

college Open our first retail store at

3:25

a mall is Sally City, Utah. During.

3:28

The Winter Olympics their back in two thousand

3:30

and one. And. It

3:32

works in people. We we ended up.

3:35

Opening more stores all over the west's

3:37

I ended up winning a reality tv

3:39

show is Richard Branson on Fox? I

3:41

raised venture capital offer that private equity

3:43

had to restart the company along the

3:46

way. I mean it's all the all

3:48

the goriest details, the highs and the

3:50

extreme lows. Of. For Chapter

3:52

eleven, Start over everything or in this book.

3:55

And finally kind of making it out

3:57

as in the and on the last

3:59

decade. We came public and twenty

4:01

eighteen. Making. Mostly stocks annals. This

4:04

module catches you get out the rest of

4:06

your life. The company was doing a hundred

4:08

million then when we came public and now

4:10

the sheer. Roughly. Seven Hundred is

4:12

where the analysts show us, wrapping up the year

4:14

that we're in we're just completing right now. And

4:17

Death showed. It's been a wild ride from

4:19

my parents' basement to you know, a billion

4:21

dollars in gyration at different times depending on

4:23

the stock market. and now we're still going

4:26

and have lots in store for the future.

4:29

That's wild say you wrote this. Incredible

4:31

Bach called. Let me say the twenty

4:33

five years. Why Now what was that

4:36

fit? Use that I gotta go right.

4:38

A bot. Well as the stories

4:40

unfolds have just more and more

4:42

fantastic things have happened. Crazy so

4:45

the subtitle his mistakes. Miracles.

4:48

And. Lessons from the Love sex Story. And there have

4:50

been all of those. Is.

4:53

Endless. sort of. Crazy.

4:56

Events that you couldn't dream up happening along

4:58

the way. You know, every time I've ever

5:00

wanted to quit. There's. Been

5:02

reasons that I couldn't. You know miracles.

5:04

the happenings that have allowed me to

5:07

can achieve going or or convince me

5:09

to kind of keep going through all

5:11

the crazy as hard as times and.

5:14

Waking Up celebrating our twenty

5:16

fifth anniversary. Last. Year realize

5:19

Oh my gosh, if I'm ever going to

5:21

put this out there now the time. So

5:23

we did it in tandem with that is

5:25

just come out. And you know, Double Entendre

5:27

Rises is a quick source sort you could

5:29

read my can our but I've I've won

5:31

his you Sunday dinner. I've read all the

5:33

business books. And I wanted to put some

5:35

the other that was very different. So as you see. It's.

5:37

Loaded with just gritty images you know this was

5:39

as it began before we all had of for

5:42

a stone in our pocket. the story So. They.

5:44

Are not pretty but they're real.

5:47

And. i try to share the real story

5:49

with the real images full bleed you know

5:51

it's more like a coffee table book as

5:53

you said as basically one chapter is is

5:56

a story and this and and the chapter

5:58

following kind of is the Lesson

6:00

that comes along with it and these

6:02

twenty five little shawnism you

6:04

know lessons i learned the hard way and perhaps might not

6:06

save you twenty five but i might save you a decade

6:08

i think i could have saved a decade i think i

6:10

could have gotten to where i am now in business. A

6:13

decade earlier you know they say if

6:15

i had only known then what i

6:18

know now and just trying to show that out. no

6:29

matter how big your business grows. And they

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growth with ShipStation. Sign up

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shipstation.com and use the code POD. He

6:49

is on a mission why because

6:51

54% of black Americans

6:53

don't have enough savings to retire so

6:56

in collaboration with big name artists

6:59

like white club john. He released

7:01

paper right new music

7:03

inspiring a new financial future with

7:05

100% of streaming sales

7:07

going to a nonprofit that teaches students

7:09

how to invest streams paper right

7:12

now and help close the gap. When

7:17

you think of one

7:20

of your earliest hardest lesson

7:23

maybe and you said okay this is

7:25

where it's it's it's all gonna it's

7:28

going to hell in a hand

7:30

basket. Can you think about that

7:32

like what was one of the

7:34

craziest stories that maybe told

7:37

your buddies or you know told

7:39

your kids about I mean we

7:41

certainly in growing. Many

7:44

many stories along the way that

7:46

we still you know sometimes

7:49

we're even thinking about things

7:51

that we haven't even talked about in

7:54

years right but yeah what was

7:56

one of the earliest crazy

7:59

stories that. you learned that

8:01

now you look back on that, I

8:03

don't know, maybe kind of got in the

8:05

way of you actually being able to grow

8:08

in some way. Well,

8:11

a good example, one of the stories

8:13

I unpack in the book is we

8:18

were a bunch of kids trying to make this thing

8:20

work and hats off to us like the first Sean

8:22

is in the book, right? Chapter

8:25

one, first lesson, just do something. And

8:28

I did, I got off the couch, made a big

8:30

beanbag, but that hurtled us down this path where eventually

8:32

we got this giant order, we had

8:34

to complete by Christmas for

8:36

this big client, I had taken their money, I had

8:38

spent their money on deposit, I had to make this

8:40

worker who's going to ruin me. And

8:43

I was in the factory that we had built

8:45

using farm equipment, getting the pallets, the first pallets

8:47

ready to load on a full-size semi truck using

8:50

a forklift, front to back, loaded with

8:52

small shrunken down sacks that we had

8:54

shredded using this farm equipment. Everything

8:57

about it was ridiculous. And the

8:59

only reason for me, because we couldn't

9:01

afford a proper German shredder for half

9:03

a million dollars. It was

9:05

a quarter million dollar order, we had to build the factory

9:07

on credit cards. And I

9:09

remember I'd ordered my first ever semi truck. What

9:11

do I know about a semi truck? It was

9:13

a 13 foot tall semi truck, so we built

9:15

13 foot tall pallets. And

9:18

when the semi truck backed up the door

9:20

to take the full first two weeks worth

9:23

of shrink of shredded and shrunken sacks, boxed

9:26

palletized shrink wrapped, each

9:28

pallet was like five feet too tall to fit

9:30

in this truck. And I remember

9:33

calling the trucking company, you know, screaming

9:35

at them like, what the heck you guys sent me a short,

9:37

I don't know, let me find out like what truck shut up.

9:40

And the truth is we were just too dumb as

9:43

a bunch of 20 something to know that 13 feet from

9:47

the ground measuring up and there's that space

9:49

underneath the semi truck. So in other words,

9:51

the box itself is more like eight, eight,

9:53

nine feet. We

9:55

didn't know what we didn't know. We couldn't have known it and

9:57

we could have had I been humble enough.

10:00

I guess smart enough to go really get someone

10:02

involved who knew their stuff. But

10:05

we were piecing it together. And I think, you

10:07

know, so there's lots of lessons packed in this

10:10

book about, you know, finding

10:12

mentors, finding experts, listening

10:14

to experts, not listening to experts, because there's

10:16

a time for both. You

10:19

know, one of one of the Shawna's mind

10:21

the experts, there's there's, there's pros and cons

10:23

to having experts tell you what you

10:25

can and can't do. And all the

10:27

all these lessons along the way that I try to

10:29

I try to marry these lessons with these stories to

10:31

illustrate. And so, you know,

10:34

the whole point of that story is, we

10:36

were just too dumb

10:38

to even know, and could

10:41

have avoided those problems. Had

10:44

we done some things differently and probably should have.

10:47

So yeah, I, I

10:49

loved that story. Because it's,

10:52

you know, on, maybe

10:55

it's the saying, you know, fake it until you

10:57

make it right, especially when you're young,

10:59

you just don't want to ask,

11:01

right. And yet, how

11:03

many of your friends were actually

11:06

trying to hire, you know,

11:09

the same kind of people that you needed to

11:11

do this to sort of ask and I mean,

11:14

where would you have gone? I guess you could

11:16

have figured it out. But it's just it

11:18

really truly is a, you

11:21

know, you think you

11:23

know what you're doing. And I think it also

11:25

speaks to I remember reading that story in the

11:27

book, it also speaks to, you know,

11:29

it's kind of lonely at the top. Yeah,

11:31

right. Here you are a young entrepreneur.

11:36

And you're trying to show

11:38

that you've got it all together. But you

11:41

just don't want to show how

11:43

vulnerable you really are. Right. Yeah.

11:45

And it's tricky, because sometimes you're

11:48

just moving so fast that,

11:52

you know, You could stop to do

11:54

the research or ask the questions or seek out

11:56

the mentors. But At the same time, we were

11:58

just trying to survive. And.

12:00

In in a way I don't regret it

12:02

because obviously got us here. But.

12:05

I do see. You.

12:07

Know at the time at Listen. At

12:09

the time this podcast in exists podcast

12:11

and exists. We Were Boots Dropping. Before.

12:15

The wear boots wrapping had I think

12:17

been invented like all of this modern

12:19

culture over the last two decades of

12:22

young entrepreneurship. You. Know start

12:24

a culture hustle culture. Know.

12:26

That was the thing. This this

12:28

this for began in Nineteen Ninety Five's

12:31

technically. And so

12:33

and the story I just told

12:35

happened around two thousand and one.

12:38

And so. If

12:40

you node is the arc I think of

12:42

the twenty five years has value in itself

12:44

because you can today I uh yeah I

12:46

would be entrepreneur of any age have so

12:48

much resource they can listen to your podcast.

12:50

They can listen to my podcast also called

12:52

let me say be Twenty Five Years and

12:54

and where we go deep into every one

12:56

of the Sean Isms with guess like you

12:58

you were kind enough to come on a

13:00

be my guest. And. We

13:03

unpack these things very deeply. And

13:05

it's of all three. Like all the proceeds from

13:08

my book or donated to the Spl I like,

13:10

I'm not even take a my from it. Same

13:12

thing with podcasting what know advertise on much like.

13:15

I'm just trying to pull out there as you

13:17

are. no character and a lot of ways because

13:19

it's it's good for the world. It's.

13:21

Obviously, And and and by the way,

13:23

some matter, Opportunity of us

13:25

connecting through this media. As

13:27

entrepreneur to help each other and network

13:30

and and do whatever of but there's

13:32

so much now and I didn't have

13:34

that then but it's only useful to

13:36

you if you taking advantage of. It. Was

13:39

now. I totally agree there's

13:41

there's definitely holsters to find

13:43

it for sure. And so.

13:46

Or. As many Absolutely.

13:48

So you gain some recognition

13:50

and the. Entrepreneurial world in

13:53

the show. Rebel billionaire

13:55

ah ads drive the

13:57

name correct. Yeah. Yeah.

14:00

And in the early 2000s,

14:02

if you could sum up that

14:04

experience, what would it be? Look

14:08

traveling the world for two months

14:10

with Richard Branson on his airline

14:13

landing in, I don't know, 11

14:15

different locations all around the globe

14:17

and competing against, you know,

14:19

people like Sarah Blakely, who was in the

14:22

final with me, you know, founder of Spanx.

14:24

It was a dream. It

14:28

was unreal. It

14:31

was hard to believe

14:34

that that happened, but it did.

14:37

And I won and I won a

14:39

million dollars on TV. And I think, you

14:42

know, but even that, like, there's, there's lessons in

14:44

that. Like at the time, Richard handed me this

14:47

check on Fox network for a

14:49

million dollars and everyone's dying because at the time that

14:51

was the biggest prize ever seen on TV. It

14:54

was the first show shot all in high depth and it was all

14:56

over the world. It was a beautiful show. And

14:59

I'm only thinking, Oh my gosh, I have

15:02

2 million in debt. Like, this isn't even

15:04

gonna, you know, fix

15:06

it, but, but it, and you can't see

15:08

that on TV. I'm not going

15:10

to say that on TV. And so you

15:12

never really know the backstory, you know, we

15:14

see so much and entrepreneurship is glossy and

15:16

entrepreneurship is sexy. And, you know, I've known

15:18

a net since then a few billionaires and

15:20

a hundred millionaires. And

15:23

there's a lot behind the glass that you

15:25

don't know and you can't know.

15:28

And in the end, everybody's struggling in one way or

15:31

another. If it's not with money or funding

15:33

or whatever, it's just the grind of

15:35

it or their family's falling apart or

15:38

things that you can't see through the

15:40

TV or through the video or, you

15:43

know, behind the scenes. But

15:45

I think it's universal. So I don't mean to

15:48

take it all negative. It was a dream

15:50

and it was amazing. And it got me started, um,

15:54

the rebel billionaire with Richard Branson, but

15:57

it did not fix everything. and

16:00

brought a total set of problems. I remember I

16:03

experienced my 15 minutes of fame. And

16:06

people, one of the things,

16:08

this is gonna sound really weird and it's not in

16:10

the book, but one of the things that people underestimate

16:13

about fame, and I wasn't super famous, but locally I

16:15

was in Utah, I was like a household name, because

16:17

I was like the local kid who won a million

16:19

dollars, it was Richard Branson on TV. People

16:24

lose their empathy for you. Now

16:26

you're just a rich guy or you're a famous guy.

16:29

And if you're not kind at every

16:31

moment, at every turn, at every interaction,

16:34

you're just a jerk. Or what

16:37

have you? And I got

16:39

to experience a little bit of that

16:41

and realized like, oh, this is the

16:43

price of being famous, so to

16:45

speak, for just one minute, thankfully. Like

16:48

I wouldn't want massive fame after all

16:50

that. And so all

16:52

kinds of lessons from all of these experiences and that

16:54

was the goal of the book is just to kind

16:56

of share some of those and be

16:59

useful if I can. And

17:01

Richard has been a friend of

17:03

yours for many, many years from

17:06

that experience too, which is just

17:08

absolutely awesome. You and I talked

17:10

about that, that I had

17:12

a chance to go to Necker and it

17:14

was just really, really

17:16

amazing. And highly

17:20

recommended to anybody who's

17:22

listening, they're constantly, there's all

17:24

kinds of entrepreneurial different

17:26

trips that different people have

17:29

put together that I highly recommend

17:32

trying to get there. I think just the island

17:34

in and of itself is absolutely

17:37

gorgeous and really

17:39

terrific, but it always seems like there's really

17:41

interesting people that are there too. Every time

17:43

I meet people and talk to people who

17:46

have had an experience there, they tell me

17:48

about different groups that have

17:50

gone there too. Yeah, it's almost like this

17:52

Mecca for entrepreneurship and it's neat what Richard done

17:54

with his life and with his, I mean

17:57

that island, he bought. in

18:00

1978 for $120,000. I

18:03

know, insane. It blows to my

18:06

mind. Yeah, and of course now,

18:08

I mean, it's almost priceless,

18:10

but it's neat to see that he didn't

18:12

just turn it into only a bougie

18:16

resort, but a place where people

18:18

connect. And to this day, he's still

18:21

there showing face

18:23

and hosting. I was just

18:25

there a few weeks ago, actually, on one of these

18:27

with Liberty Ventures, and that's a cool one. There's

18:29

lots of different ways that you can get

18:31

to places, if not Necker, like Necker, to

18:34

connect with people like Kara, or me,

18:38

or other like-minded individuals

18:40

that you can learn,

18:42

grow, and benefit

18:46

from being connected, or just learn from.

18:49

But you have to put yourself out there. And again,

18:52

back to these Shawnisms, that was

18:54

the one that came from Necker

18:56

Island, chapter 13, Make

18:58

Your Own Luck. That was me and

19:01

Richard laying on the roof of the great house

19:03

before it burned, the old great house on Necker.

19:06

And he was asking about

19:09

what I believed, and I got into religion, and I asked

19:11

him, and he said, well, I believe we make our own

19:13

luck. And at first, I

19:15

read about this in the book, I didn't really

19:18

buy into that, because luck just seems so

19:20

dismissive. But after a lot of bad luck,

19:23

and bad timing in life, collaborating

19:25

to bring us down at different

19:27

moments, you start believing in

19:29

luck. I mean, if there's bad luck, there must be

19:32

good luck too, and not

19:34

just divine providence always. And

19:38

so anyway, I have a lot of feelings

19:40

and thoughts about that, but Richard kind

19:43

of inspired that Shawnism, and I

19:45

think to this point, if

19:48

you can't put yourself in places like that, where

19:50

you can bump into people and make connections, and

19:52

see what comes of all of it, how

19:54

can you expect any luck? You know,

19:56

if you're not out there creating it. so,

20:00

so true. So I want to

20:02

talk about that though for a second.

20:04

So the finding your own

20:07

luck, like let's say you're feeling

20:09

like you start a

20:11

company, nothing's going right. You know,

20:13

obviously you have to sort of look

20:16

at the overall business and the idea

20:18

and all those things, but how

20:20

do you put luck in

20:23

your journey? If you're just feeling like

20:25

it just things are just, the

20:28

world is against you. And obviously

20:30

I think any entrepreneur has

20:33

days like that. But what would you

20:35

say to that? Yeah, I would say

20:37

that's where my testimony of luck came from.

20:39

It's from those feelings of the world

20:41

is against me. Like, okay, so if

20:43

there's bad luck, it's like, are

20:45

you kidding me? Like this happened and that, and

20:47

it happens to be at this time when

20:50

a check just cleared and we don't,

20:52

you know, whatever it is, I don't know, just the

20:54

world conspiring against you. On the

20:56

other hand, if that's true, then luck

20:58

is in play. And I very

21:01

much believe we have, we experienced these

21:03

waves and these moments, but if we've

21:05

not continued to push

21:07

through, do the work, network, read the

21:09

books, learn the things, meet

21:13

the people, do

21:15

the work on your hands and knees sometimes, you

21:17

know, in my case on a ladder, opening showrooms

21:19

myself when we just didn't have the money to

21:21

do it. And it just had to be my

21:23

own sweat equity, my own grit. And

21:26

then things happen. And in hindsight,

21:29

usually you realize, oh, that was

21:31

pretty lucky. But in the

21:33

moment, it's just your life happening to you.

21:36

And look, if you're religious, you can thank

21:38

God. And look, I am. And I think that

21:40

to some degree, it's all connected. You know, my

21:42

talk about this in the book, I'm pretty

21:44

honest and open with it. You know, I

21:46

don't think as a believer, I

21:48

don't think God created the universe as a magician. I

21:52

think, you know, there are meteors

21:54

hurtling all over the galaxy. And

21:56

I think that the Big Bang or

21:59

they... Or

22:01

the happenstance that

22:03

maybe if you

22:06

want to get scientific about it from the Earth to

22:08

even human relationships as we ricochet off of

22:11

other people. Things happen and

22:13

unfold and oh my gosh, who could have guessed

22:15

that this meeting, this one person would lead to

22:17

this other connection that led to my

22:19

funding of my company or who knows what. It's

22:22

not so different than asteroids hurtling around

22:25

the cosmos colliding and combining elements

22:27

in a way to create Earth. I don't mean

22:29

to get so esoteric, but

22:31

I believe that we

22:33

now make our own luck. Richard taught me

22:35

that and I believe that. I

22:38

think that you have to be out there making it. Listen,

22:40

sometimes it can be years.

22:44

That's the benefit of a story like mine. Look

22:46

I wish. I have friends who

22:48

they're richer than me. They made

22:50

more money than me. They did it in two, three, four,

22:52

five years. They've already onto their second, third, fourth, fifth. I'm

22:54

still running the company. I started in college. There's

22:57

a benefit to that too. By the way,

22:59

I think I have a shot at building a Nike. I

23:02

think I have a shot at building a brand that's here for 50 or 100

23:04

years. I really do. Now,

23:06

whether that'll happen, we'll see. But

23:09

I'm in the middle of it. It's not like my story's over at 25

23:11

years. This is just where

23:13

we're at. It was a good moment to write the book.

23:16

There's benefit to long stories. There's

23:18

benefit to short stories. You're

23:21

always comparing yourself and usually sadly, the

23:23

media picks up on the really shiny

23:25

ones, the really fast ones, the really

23:27

hot ones. Then

23:30

we think that's normal. By

23:32

the way, for every one of those, as we all know,

23:34

the data, there's 10 more or 100 more

23:36

that failed. If you're lucky

23:38

enough to even still be breathing, to be

23:40

able to rub two nickels together and keep

23:42

your thing going, whatever that thing is, you're

23:45

already in the top 10%. Yeah,

23:48

definitely. I think it also speaks

23:51

to, I always say, complacency will

23:53

kill you. I

23:55

Think that that goes along with a lot of what

23:57

you're saying too. It's like you've got to keep moving.

24:00

In finding out going out. And trying

24:02

new things. and I. Felt.

24:04

That way you're both fear that you didn't

24:06

have all the answers you are. You.

24:08

Know tripping but you just have getting back

24:10

up. And. I didn't like

24:12

that is we talk about resilience.

24:14

And tenacity and all of those

24:16

things. And I think it's that.

24:19

It's very rare. That.

24:21

You. Sit. With that.

24:24

An entrepreneur? Or maybe they're not going to. He.

24:27

Was the first time, but you

24:29

know the ones that actually. So.

24:33

That. They're. Not going down right.

24:35

They're going to keep. Getting back

24:37

up again and keep moving. And I

24:39

think that's that's also what your story

24:42

really lays out for people and. I

24:44

also love the pictures too because I love miss

24:46

or person. Out that's really helpful,

24:48

but. In. The book to talk about

24:51

the long. Term entrepreneurial journey

24:53

and the challenges that

24:55

persists to bring you

24:57

as revenue increases. I

24:59

What. What? Comes

25:02

to mind when I say that for you. Yeah.

25:06

I mean one of the one of the stories

25:08

I share in the book is I'm standing in

25:10

front of my college cause I'm I'm. I become

25:12

it. Later in life I become a. A

25:15

teacher in the master's program at Parsons. cool

25:17

doing so hot design school in the world

25:19

teaching her master's program in New York City

25:22

Don't ask me how on transpired was amazing.

25:24

I was cool experience. And

25:26

and ceiling like a total fraud. Because.

25:30

I'm presenting to them my my framework. I

25:32

call the to Twelve Ws framework. It's like

25:34

Us is a strategic guide which I think

25:37

it's a foolproof way to build like a

25:39

strategic plan for business. and I'm presenting as

25:41

the answer to so many things. And

25:44

meanwhile my business. Is

25:46

falling apart and might be done. In.

25:48

The next thirty days if I can't get the funding.

25:51

And. I'm thinking, how could my

25:53

business possibly be as fragile. As.

25:56

Seventy million in revenues, As

25:58

it was at seven, Or it

26:00

i don't know seven seven thousand dollars in

26:03

revenue like it just feels the same it's

26:05

the numbers are much bigger. The

26:07

consequences are higher got four kids

26:09

now you know like oh my

26:12

gosh i am i'm still renting at the

26:14

time like i could be financially

26:16

ruined. And

26:18

yet here i am now at seven hundred how

26:21

ironic is that and i'm not saying it's as

26:23

fragile necessarily but the feelings are the same at

26:25

the same time like. I've got

26:27

to stay ahead of my competition they're buying

26:29

my heels about you know different patents that will

26:31

expire i've gotta be innovating in the other

26:33

categories. And i've got

26:35

now fifteen hundred employees that are counting on me

26:38

to make good decisions. So it

26:40

doesn't impact them in a market that's terrible

26:42

for the furniture category right now in real

26:44

time like most of my competitors are

26:46

down twenty percent for the last two

26:48

years year on year straight love thankfully

26:51

love sex grown a little bit. We

26:53

were growing at like forty five

26:55

percent forty i don't know forty percent for almost

26:58

a decade. A decade

27:00

growth and it's slowed down and

27:02

so you know it makes you nervous and it

27:04

makes you thoughtful about what comes next and thankfully.

27:07

We have a bright future and we have a lot of

27:09

great things coming but i gotta

27:11

say sharp and so i think like

27:13

no matter and by the way i believe. I

27:16

don't mean to speak for him but i believe just some

27:18

degree richard branson just

27:20

to pick on him cuz we're talking about him feels

27:23

that way you know he's got all these different businesses

27:25

and by the way he's had. Hundreds

27:27

succeed and hundreds fail literally

27:30

along the way there's there's a

27:33

little moguls and it just

27:35

never ends. It just never

27:37

ends there's something and flowing and working

27:39

and not working with return at

27:41

one business or multiple businesses are just within one

27:43

business there are elements that are working in elements

27:45

that are not. And so it

27:47

i don't tell you it's hard but

27:50

that's why they pay you

27:52

the big bucks you

27:55

are the CEO of your own life decisions

27:57

are tough there's No right answer. And

27:59

that's why. See., Those are paid so much. Can.

28:02

Flip and heart. Yeah.

28:04

Definitely so fit. So crazy our

28:06

lives are are at the four

28:08

kids and starting a company. and

28:10

if so crazy how there's so

28:12

many similarities and anger and story

28:15

just a different end of story

28:17

Young I. Saw Idol. I love the

28:19

chapter where you described. Planning an

28:21

exit strategy. And then. Shifting.

28:24

To focus on continuing to Bills

28:26

at So. What last? And. They.

28:29

Are.l pivots or I. Like

28:31

what lessons can really be learned?

28:34

From. That. Yes, Herbs

28:36

well the a few of the shown

28:38

as in the celebrating the Books. Embrace

28:41

uncertainty. Some.

28:45

The I I think it's something I've never

28:47

heard talked about much in entrepreneur circles. Occasionally

28:49

I'll get a whiff of it. But.

28:51

Dumb. I've thought

28:53

a lot about what makes an entrepreneur

28:56

an entrepreneur and one of the key

28:58

attributes that is vague and hard to

29:00

put your finger on is the ability

29:03

to embrace uncertainty, the ability. To.

29:05

Thrive. In. Uncertainty. And I

29:07

think those of us who. Are

29:09

entrepreneurs. Take for

29:11

granted. This. Super power because

29:13

it's just how we lived like we're

29:16

We're just going away with it Were

29:18

uncertainty can break. New.

29:21

Uncertainty can break normal people down

29:24

into a pile of much like

29:26

they would sooner. Know

29:28

the answer and take less pay.

29:30

take a worse outcome. Take. You.

29:32

Know. Whatever.

29:36

To. Get certain. Over.

29:38

Just not knowing not knowing how this

29:40

is gonna work out. Not knowing. Where.

29:43

It's gonna go from here. And so

29:45

is you. Get the sense and look.

29:48

it's hard on all of us even though diverse you

29:50

have a stomach for. But as you get the sense

29:52

that you cannot. deal with

29:54

uncertainty weldon maybe entrepreneurship is not for

29:56

you and that is not a criticism

29:58

is everyone For an entrepreneur,

30:01

we would not have anybody working

30:03

at Levsack. Everyone would just be running around doing their own

30:05

thing. We need

30:07

people of all kinds of different expertise to

30:10

build things, to truly build things. That's where

30:12

I'm at now. Obviously, we're past

30:14

the startup phase. We're a public company

30:16

traded on NASDAQ. It's been public for going

30:18

on six years now. I'm proud of that. It's

30:22

rare to have a founder that's able to stick around. I'm

30:24

proud of that. I

30:26

hope that we can continue. It

30:29

means I have to be sharp. I'm

30:32

no longer just the owner of the company or

30:34

outright or that sort of thing. That's

30:38

another thing that I unpack in the book is,

30:40

so what's the answer to that? Well, be

30:43

Michael Jordan. Nobody wanted

30:45

Michael Jordan to leave the ball. He wasn't the owner

30:48

of the team. He wasn't the coach of the team.

30:51

Certainly nobody wanted him gone. How

30:55

do you maintain control? Be

30:58

awesome. Now, what's wrong with

31:00

that? Are you afraid of being awesome? That's

31:03

ownership, right? That's true

31:05

ownership. I boil that

31:07

down another show and it's your

31:09

fault. No

31:13

matter where you are in an organization, you don't have to be a CEO. Whatever

31:17

you happen to be in charge of, it's your fault. I

31:20

have all these little pithy phrases that I live

31:22

by and we unpack in depth

31:24

on the book and on the podcast. Let

31:26

me save you 25 years. The

31:29

lessons are endless, as you know, Kara. By the way,

31:31

after I finish these first 25 on the podcast, I'll

31:33

go another 25 because the

31:35

lessons are endless and they're the same. You

31:38

know the same things, Kara. That's what's so fun about the podcast

31:40

is I could have people like you on. You

31:43

don't need any prep. I could give you any one of

31:45

these, Shana, you've already learned the same

31:47

things. I know that. No,

31:50

it's so true. I think that

31:52

that's where people learn.

31:55

I go back to you're in YPO as

31:57

well. I think it's... this

32:00

theory that just by

32:02

hearing somebody else's story of how

32:05

they've been through something versus

32:08

actually solving somebody's

32:10

problems for them,

32:13

the former is the most

32:15

helpful to people, right? That they can

32:17

put it into their own framework, but

32:19

being able to see that, hey,

32:22

Sean's been through this, he's still standing.

32:25

He still has his, you know,

32:27

smile, he gets dressed every

32:29

day, you know, like

32:32

survive, right? And I think

32:34

that's a really powerful thing for

32:37

people to be able to see. And your

32:39

stories definitely are,

32:41

you know, jaw-dropping,

32:44

to say the least. And I think just

32:46

being able to put it into a

32:48

framework where people can learn from it

32:50

is just really super helpful. So I've

32:53

heard you say as someone who

32:56

is ambitious, being patient, or sometimes

32:59

telling people to be patient

33:01

feels really unambitious. What

33:04

is it, being forced to take it slow? I've

33:06

learned great

33:08

patience is

33:11

a superpower and is your superpower.

33:14

So I'd love to hear your

33:17

take on patience.

33:19

And how does one become

33:21

patient? I can't say that's

33:23

my superpower still to

33:25

this day. I'm forced to be patient, but

33:28

I'm not happy about being patient. Yeah,

33:30

thank you. That's very astute.

33:33

And it's the final Seanism in

33:35

the book, maintain top ambition with

33:39

infinite patience. And I've

33:41

learned so much of

33:43

it is an attitude. Listen, no one

33:46

would accuse me of being a patient person. My

33:48

wife, my kid, no one probably. But

33:51

I believe I am because I've been forced by

33:53

life to become that. It's taken me this long

33:55

just to get my company here. And By the

33:58

way, there's things that pop soon or not. Do

34:00

this or happen faster. Whatever. Insert

34:03

kind of been forced upon me, but I've

34:05

learned that. Just because you

34:08

can adopt an attitude of

34:10

extreme patients. I can take

34:12

as long as it takes like they put on that put

34:14

on that. Jacket for a

34:17

minute. I. Will I Will

34:19

take as long as it takes a you did

34:21

this with your podcast and out is hop on

34:23

percent of our podcast. I'm I'm I'm I'm The

34:25

Road. I'm on the on episode thirteen car. And

34:28

and but it is the trick. So.

34:31

Be it goes along with grit? Do you

34:33

Are you able to maintain that attitude like

34:35

I Will go as long as it takes.

34:38

It went where most people they get seven

34:40

episodes in it doesn't even twenty or even

34:42

one hundred. And and at the end. and

34:45

by the way, maybe they should quit. Amazon

34:47

uses Sick with Everything. But. If

34:49

you can maintain top ambition, so if you're

34:51

at Nasa, trick to It's not just paste.

34:53

It's not just great. But.

34:55

Mean like so what do you want? You want to be in a

34:57

top. Of podcasts. Okay, Buckle

35:00

up and don't the side of that now you get it

35:02

is not enough just to keep going either. You.

35:05

Have to do other things. You navigate you

35:07

you. when did five hundred? Podcast.

35:09

Other people's podcast to get the word out there

35:11

on yours. Will. That residents a

35:14

less than a year. I.

35:16

Mean or two, or three or four

35:18

like so. It wasn't just that

35:20

you could stick with a podcast, is that your ambition

35:23

didn't change. You want to be at the top? I

35:25

do too, I. Want love sack

35:27

to go on to become a Nike to

35:29

be a fifty or one your brand. Okay

35:31

how long that gonna take? I don't know.

35:34

So. It

35:36

I found. through all this it

35:38

becomes quite motivating. Also, it's my

35:40

own team when. They. Get

35:43

the set. they don't get the sense from the ever. Let's.

35:45

All you know, maybe Sean or sell our stock

35:47

next year and become a done and then it'll

35:49

get on and love Circle Beyond. I. Public.

35:52

Co. in. The recruiter seat

35:54

new Cel. people are often

35:57

terrified of that couldn't you never know where

35:59

a company goes and use Usually it doesn't

36:01

necessarily go great. Unless the

36:03

founder's thinking around or screwing up, it

36:06

often doesn't go great from there. And so when

36:09

my attitude is not only will I do

36:12

this now for

36:14

as long as it takes, now whether or not that's

36:16

true, who knows? Maybe a meteor comes

36:18

along and someone buys the company for a trillion

36:20

dollars and they walk away with it and they

36:22

don't even want me there. But my attitude has

36:25

to be I will go as long

36:27

as it takes. And then that becomes

36:29

contagious. And I'm able to

36:31

say to my people when sometimes they're like, oh, another

36:33

year where we can't afford to hire for this or

36:35

that and I can put my arm around and be

36:38

like, just be patient. And

36:40

now I'm the one, usually the

36:42

driver, the entrepreneur, the go-getter, the like, we can do

36:44

everything, we can do anything. And now

36:46

I'm the one, like the old guy in the room

36:48

saying, just be patient. And yet we'll

36:51

go another year without hiring for that because we can't afford

36:53

to this year because it's a down year, it's a tough

36:55

year. And when you have that

36:57

attitude, by the way, it often unfolds

36:59

that it's not so tough a year and you can hire for

37:01

that and you get lucky. But

37:04

your attitude has to be as

37:08

long as it takes. And it's amazing

37:10

how lucky you can get when that's your attitude

37:12

and what a good culture that breeds as opposed

37:15

to like, am I just gonna

37:17

make this guy rich? Am I, is he just

37:19

looking for a chance to drop the mic and

37:21

walk away? Because by the way,

37:23

there's so much of that. There's so much

37:26

wealth extraction out of companies that ruins companies.

37:29

Cause that's all that they're motivated by is just

37:31

sucking the wealth out and

37:33

the culture dies on the line. And so

37:36

I think the magic is when you

37:38

can maintain top ambition with infinite patience.

37:42

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. So I mean, I think

37:45

a lot of what you're talking about too is leadership,

37:47

right? So it's being able

37:49

to, you know, think back

37:51

on some of those stories, I think with

37:53

age, that's what I have always said to

37:55

my team too. It's a,

37:58

you know, remembering. the

38:02

2008-2009 times which

38:04

weren't pretty for anybody versus,

38:06

you know, looking at COVID

38:09

and everything going on during that

38:12

time. I think it's, if

38:14

you're not old enough to be able to remember

38:17

some of those really hard times where you have

38:19

the patience and you have

38:21

the curiosity to figure it out

38:23

and get back up again and all of

38:25

those different points that

38:27

you point out in your chapters, I

38:30

think it's just so

38:32

key to be able to share those

38:34

with people. And I think

38:37

being able to lead from that perspective

38:39

is also just absolutely key. So

38:42

it's super- And honesty, like I've

38:44

tried hard with this book and with my podcast to

38:46

be really honest and put it

38:48

the way it is. And it's not always flattering. It's embarrassing. Like I've

38:50

been through a lot of crap and

38:53

it's, you know, and I'm not the, because of

38:55

it, I'm not the richest guy in the world

38:57

and it may never be. I mean, I'll do

38:59

fine. I'm not complaining. My point is, is like I

39:01

have plenty of rich friends who in some cases

39:04

might trade places with me just

39:06

to have four kids who still like

39:08

them or that they didn't miss their child.

39:10

And so there's a balance to all this.

39:13

And I talk about in the book, you know, one

39:15

of the Shaughnessons is my favorite, play along the way

39:18

and, you know, and everything else is

39:20

dust and putting your priorities first. And

39:22

so look, and then you say, oh my

39:25

gosh, really? Like you're talking about grit and surviving.

39:27

And now you're talking about like maybe

39:29

putting your family first. In my case, that's, you

39:31

know, what matters to me. Yeah.

39:34

And by the way, well, how do you do that? It's

39:36

hard. It is so hard. It's

39:39

not easy. And it's a daily minute to

39:41

minute hourly endeavor to be present and then

39:43

be engaged and then work in the scenes

39:45

and cracks and sometimes go all night and

39:48

sometimes travel heavy and sometimes not,

39:52

but you are the CEO of your life. That's

39:54

why they pay you the big bucks and CEO

39:56

decisions are hard. So buckle up

39:59

and get used to it. It's so

40:01

true. How old are your kids? What's the range? My

40:04

kids are 15, 13, 11, and 9. Three girls and a boy is the 11 year old.

40:10

That's awesome. Really cool. In

40:12

my book, I talk about

40:15

my son who's a senior

40:17

in college now. And what's

40:19

so fun for me now

40:21

is watching

40:24

my kids who basically grew up and

40:26

enhanced and grew up walking

40:31

into Target stores and pulling cases out

40:33

from the back room with me. I

40:35

mean, what kids do that,

40:38

but how much they've

40:41

learned about business, about

40:43

management, about leadership, and

40:46

life just overall. It'll be really

40:48

fun. I started really seeing a lot

40:50

of that around 17,

40:54

18, which is not too far

40:56

from when you started your company.

40:59

But those things start, the dots

41:01

eventually connect to bring

41:04

our Steve Jobs theme back

41:07

in here. But it's definitely

41:12

really fun to see that. So

41:14

it's sort of another aspect

41:16

of entrepreneurship that I think a

41:18

lot of people don't talk about

41:20

and how much

41:23

your kids are benefiting actually from

41:25

watching you and go through the

41:27

good times and also the

41:30

challenging times. And again, Richard, I think clearly

41:35

his kids have seen that as

41:37

well. Yeah, I had

41:39

a friend say to me the other day,

41:41

a very wealthy friend who exited early, retired

41:43

in his 40s. And it was

41:46

interesting, he actually called

41:48

me or texted me and said, on the one hand, I wish

41:51

I was just flying around in planes and

41:57

surfing a lot or whatever. I'm still in the

42:00

grind. On the other hand,

42:02

obviously, I have enough expertise around me that I don't

42:04

have to do some of the, I'm not on the

42:06

ladder setting up stores anymore. Like I got past that.

42:09

And I get to have more

42:11

time than I did before. My

42:13

life has ebbed and flowed. But

42:15

this friend of mine said to me, I really

42:20

envy you because

42:22

I realized my kids don't see me

42:24

work. So here he is super wealthy,

42:26

retired, and he envies

42:28

me because I'm still in the grind.

42:30

And so I think there's value in

42:32

just, listen,

42:36

people were meant to work in my opinion. And it doesn't mean

42:38

you have to work forever. It doesn't mean you have to grind

42:40

your life away. It doesn't mean that

42:42

there aren't times in your life to do

42:45

less or focus more on your family or whatever it

42:47

may be. But I

42:50

think that at some

42:52

level, human beings are meant to

42:54

work and it's okay. And I think that it's

42:56

natural and normal. And if you can not

42:59

wreck your life for work, if you can

43:01

find a way to do that, and

43:05

achieve some good things and

43:07

be productive, by the

43:09

way, entrepreneur, not entrepreneur, employee, it doesn't matter.

43:12

There's value in that. And I think sometimes that's overlooked.

43:14

I think we're all chasing like, Necker Island and like,

43:16

oh, I was rich enough to do that. I

43:19

know a lot of people who

43:21

have those things. And

43:24

I still believe, I want

43:27

to believe that building something at any level

43:29

being a part of something doesn't matter if

43:31

you're CEO is

43:33

valuable and useful and good. I

43:37

totally agree. My

43:39

dad, long crazy story, but my

43:42

dad ultimately retired in

43:45

his 60s. And he was so excited.

43:47

He was gonna play golf every single day. And

43:50

that lasted for about a week. And then when

43:52

he figured out as none of his friends, either

43:56

didn't play golf, or they

43:58

couldn't play golf because they were working. And so

44:01

then he spent, I don't know, it

44:03

probably took him two months to say

44:05

that was really stupid, that I that

44:07

I retired. And, and he

44:09

kept saying, don't, don't ever stop working,

44:11

that doesn't mean that you have to

44:13

work as hard. Yeah, always be doing

44:15

something always be thinking about, always

44:18

be, you know, doing something, even

44:20

if it's nonprofit work that you care

44:22

about, that you feel

44:24

like has impact, you don't have to

44:26

be leading that charge for your whole

44:28

life, but he had this big feeling

44:31

about that, as well, that

44:33

he had made that mistake and, and

44:35

just thrilled that in all of our

44:37

heads are till the day that he

44:40

passed away. So definitely, but retirement was

44:42

not a retirement was not a real

44:44

thing. It was instituted by a German

44:46

Chancellor who wanted a chance to lead

44:48

and the older guys weren't

44:50

stepping down. And so he found

44:52

a way through the version of the Senate to

44:54

make it mandatory. And now we you know, retirement

44:57

became a thing. But there's nothing

44:59

wrong with being productive, I think until

45:01

the end of your days, no matter how you choose

45:03

to do that. And I like what you said, it

45:05

could be less, but it doesn't have to be

45:07

everything. So

45:09

if there's one message that maybe

45:11

it's one chapter or one message

45:14

that you want to read the

45:16

audience with, maybe an

45:18

important takeaway, obviously, you

45:21

broke this into 25 chapters, lots

45:24

of different incredible lessons. But what's

45:28

the one message that you want

45:30

people to walk away from this

45:32

interview, thinking about before they

45:34

go and get your book and, and

45:37

learn a lot more about Sean and,

45:39

and love sack, but also, you

45:42

know, just, again, about light,

45:44

I think is, is what I

45:46

really took away from the book.

45:48

So hard. I mean, you know, these

45:51

25 Shaughnessons, and

45:54

each one is like a little child to me, and

45:56

I love to unpack them in the book and on

45:59

the pod. They

46:01

mean a lot to me. I'll pick

46:03

one to wrap up with.

46:08

This idea, it was

46:11

one of those moments where I really thought

46:14

it was after the bankruptcy and we had to start over

46:16

and it was embarrassing. I just won a million dollars on

46:18

TV and now my company's in Chapter 11. It's the

46:20

most humiliating thing in my life. Really,

46:23

I probably should have left and

46:26

walked away and started something else. I don't know.

46:31

I was asking my parents for advice.

46:33

My mom, who's sturdy and

46:35

not any kind of real entrepreneur or anything

46:38

like that, she was a ballet teacher. But

46:42

I was asking them for advice. After

46:45

hearing all my plight and all my

46:48

embarrassment and what my choices were and the

46:50

difficulties that were ahead through this Chapter

46:52

11 rework that would take years

46:54

to really work all the way through, she

46:59

kind of stood up and walked away and said, well, you

47:02

can quit or keep going. And

47:06

listen, that's it.

47:10

Everything comes down to that decision, even waking up

47:12

in the morning. You

47:15

can quit or you can keep going. I made

47:18

the decision to keep going and I'm really glad I did. I

47:21

could not have known that at the time.

47:23

I could not have known how

47:25

it was going to work out, that uncertainty,

47:27

back to embracing that uncertainty. But

47:31

I could have quit. And by the

47:33

way, I would still be alive and I would

47:35

still hopefully have a family. I'd still be doing

47:37

things. But I

47:39

chose to keep going. And so I think coming

47:42

to terms with the simplicity of that, quit

47:45

or keep going. There is no

47:47

in-between. I love

47:49

that advice. It's so

47:51

simple yet it's so powerful.

47:55

Thanks for letting me impact these. It's

47:57

been a lot of fun. I

48:00

would love, I think

48:03

there's a lot of value in them. I'm

48:05

again taking no profit from any of it.

48:07

So definitely for those listening,

48:09

check out the books, all those proceeds are donated,

48:11

really proud of that. Check out

48:14

the pod, let me save you 25 years where geniuses

48:18

like Tara get to go

48:20

deep with me on these topics. It's

48:22

been a lot of fun to put all that out there. Super

48:26

fun. So, well, Sean, thanks again

48:28

and thanks everyone for listening. We'll have

48:30

all the info in the show notes and

48:32

definitely pick up a copy. Let

48:35

me save you 25 years by

48:37

Sean Nufflin. So thanks again, Sean. Thank

48:40

you. Thanks again for

48:42

listening to the Kara Golden Show. If

48:44

you would, please give us a review

48:46

and feel free to share this podcast

48:48

with others who would benefit. And of

48:50

course, feel free to subscribe so you

48:52

don't miss a single episode of our

48:54

podcast. Just a reminder that

48:57

I can be found on all platforms

48:59

at Kara Golden. I would

49:01

love to hear from you too, so feel free

49:03

to DM me. And if you want

49:05

to hear more about my journey, I

49:07

hope you will have a listen

49:09

or pick up a copy of

49:11

my Wall Street Journal best-selling book,

49:13

Undaunted, where I share

49:16

more about my journey, including

49:18

founding and building hints. We

49:21

are here every Monday, Wednesday and

49:24

Friday. Thanks for listening and goodbye

49:26

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