0:00

Kindness, we see it all around us. We see it when someone pays for someone else's coffee or holds the door open for another person.

0:07

We see it in the smallest of gestures, like a smile or a kind word.

0:12

But it's different when we turn on the news or social media.

0:15

Oftentimes what we hear about what outlets are pushing is the opposite of kind.

0:21

Welcome to the Kindness Matters podcast.

0:24

Our goal is to give you a place to relax, to revel in stories of people who have received or given kindness, a place to inspire and motivate each and every one of us to practice kindness every day.

0:38

Hello everybody and welcome to the Kindness Matters podcast.

0:43

I am your host, mike Rathbun, and today it sounds like it's going to be a bummer, but trust me on this one it's not.

0:52

I want to talk about grieving.

0:57

We're coming up on a point in a period of time where two separate but very important things are going on.

1:07

A lot of people will be celebrating their first holidays without somebody that they loved or cared about.

1:19

We tend to mark those and we place a good deal of emphasis on how hard it is for somebody dealing with their loss during the holidays.

1:35

It's the same for birthdays and anniversaries and any other kind of milestone, but it seems to get a lot of attention and it seems to be especially hard during the holidays, and also we will probably run into holiday party, family gathering, what have you?

2:03

We'll run into somebody who is grieving, who has experienced a loss in the last year, and I don't know about you, but I am always at a loss for words, for what to say to that person, and without it sounding trite, without it sounding flippant, oftentimes I think the I'm sorry for your loss doesn't really cut it.

2:29

But I have found an amazing lady who deals with exactly such things.

2:40

Her name is Heidi Dunson and she's here with me today.

2:45

Welcome to the show, heidi.

2:48

Hey, Mike, thanks so much for having me. It's great to be here.

2:52

And this is so. What's the word fortuitous?

2:56

Ooh, look at me throwing out 25 cent words that we should connect at this particular time because when I heard what you do you're an author, you've been on dozens of podcasts I think dozens would be fair to say and this is your life and it comes with a backstory.

3:25

It comes from experience, correct?

3:29

It is. Yeah, I lost my husband unexpectedly in 2018, two days after Christmas and the day before my 40th birthday and it was an unexpected loss and I found that I mean it by far is the hardest thing I've ever had to face in my life.

3:46

And I have really great people in my life, and I found during my grief process that I had people that just said things that missed the mark, and, as I spent more and more time with Griever's because that's where I started to feel more comfortable I found that my story wasn't that unusual.

4:05

In fact, most Grievers go through it, and I spent some time kind of looking at it, learning about it, taking some courses on grief and realizing that it isn't because people are mean or malicious that they say these things.

4:18

It's because we've never been taught. Our grief education is really limited, and I'm like you know what?

4:24

It's time to change the narrative, it's time to teach people to do things differently, and so a lot of my friends will phone me and be like, hey, so and so lost, so and so.

4:32

Can you fix them? And I'm like, no, but I'd love to help you.

4:35

Can you make them better?

4:37

Can you coach them, can you?

4:40

And I'm like no, but I can teach you how to hold space for them.

4:42

I can teach you the things to say and teach you how to understand what they're going through, so that you can give them the grace that they need to go through what they're going through, that they can feel the feels with you rather than in isolation, because I believe that grief is love and it should never be done alone.

5:00

Oh wow, Grief is love. I've never heard it put that way before.

5:04

Well, if you think about it really, when somebody is grieving, it's because they're trying to find a way to love somebody who's no longer here anymore.

5:11

It would not hurt if they didn't love their person.

5:15

Sure, absolutely. Yeah, I know at least one person.

5:20

Well, a good friend of mine just lost his mother this week.

5:25

Another friend lost his wife after a very lengthy illness, and these people will all be celebrating no, they'll be grieving during this holiday season.

5:38

What now do you talk you teach grievers.

5:44

Is that correct?

5:45

on how to no, I teach their friends you teach their friends.

5:49

I teach their friends and family how to hold space for them and how to what to say, what not to say, things to do, how to understand.

5:58

Many of us don't understand that grief. Grief is one little word that describes a roller coaster of emotions.

6:05

And so they're like oh, my friend is angry, I'm like they're grieving.

6:10

Well, now they're depressed, they're grieving they're grieving they're grateful they're still grieving, and so I kind of give people a little bit more awareness of what grief is.

6:21

And then I give them tools of what to say and not say, because most of the time, like you said earlier, people know to say I'm sorry for your loss, they know to send a card or flowers, they know to go to a service, they know how to post something on social media and that's about all they really know.

6:38

But grief goes far longer than that right, like when you lose a spouse, a child, a sibling, a parent, the grief for those that are just like intimately impacted, they go through it for a lot longer than that quote two-week period.

6:52

That might be until the service happens.

6:54

And so I teach people like hands-on things like stop asking how are you and ask how's today, because with how are you you're supposed to say good, fine, or okay, right, who's grieving is none of those okay, all right so.

7:12

And grief is not linear by any means, is it no?

7:19

I call it the hot mess. It's like the hot, the crazy train of grief.

7:23

It's a ten coupon ride and you don't get a choice on when to get off.

7:26

And, mike, I am like the queen of scheduling in my real life.

7:30

I'm an event manager, so I'm good at planning stuff yeah, I was like when, when, when I was planning, when I was going through grief, I'm like I got two hours there, I got an evening off, I'll grieve.

7:40

Then I wasn't planning on grieving in the grocery store when I walked past his favorite food and I didn't have to buy it anymore.

7:48

I didn't plan on grieving when I drove past the first place.

7:52

We went for dinner on our first date and I was like we were supposed to go back there, you know.

7:58

And so grief catches you in these moments and the hard part is is grievers are out in the world and the world is like the service is over.

8:07

Aren't you over yet? Yeah, like it's been six months, you're still talking about that guy.

8:12

He's dead. It's like, well, yeah, I'm still talking about him because you know, he was a big part of my life.

8:20

Yeah, and it takes, it takes a while and and a lot of people think that, oh, after a year you should be over it yeah.

8:29

I will tell you that I will grieve my husband from the from till the last breath I take, because I will love him until the last breath I take.

8:36

And so those moments, are they as big as they used to be?

8:40

They can be. Are they as frequent?

8:43

No, but they can be just as intense and just as hard.

8:46

And when I have people around me that, instead of judging me, saying, aren't you over it yet, are you stuck in your grief, instead they say, hey, I see this hurts, or I can see how hard this is for you and I don't have any words to fix it.

9:02

But I want you to know you're important to me and I want to be here with you and thank you for sharing your tears with me.

9:07

Rather than, please don't cry, you'll make me cry too and we say we do.

9:14

We say these things right and and You're probably right, none of us actually means to say something hurtful or or Agony inducing.

9:29

That might be a little harsh, but what are some of the most common things that people say to people who are grieving?

9:39

Just so we know and we can avoid them any sentence that starts with at least oh boy, at least at least that minimize it totally.

9:47

At least they're not suffering anymore. The person right in front of you is suffering and and, and you know there are diseases like cancer, als, dementia, all of that that it but guess what.

10:00

It doesn't mean that it's okay that their person is gone, and I don't say it until the person who is grieving says it.

10:07

You know, I had a good friend of mine. She lost her husband to ALS and it wasn't until she said I'm grateful he's not suffering anymore that we could have that conversation.

10:15

But it was not mine, to sure.

10:18

There another one is, at least they're with God now.

10:21

And even my most religious friends some of them have lost their spouse or lost a child and they kind of get mad at God sometimes.

10:30

Oh sure, that's part of the whole grieving process, isn't it?

10:32

It is, and so I don't mention God until they mention God.

10:35

Sure right because if they're mad at God, that that is not helpful, you know, at least you can get another dog Doesn't sound so good when you say at least you can have another child.

10:53

Yeah, and you know, when you say them, what do you and I, you and I sitting here and you say them and I Physically cringe.

11:03

But I'm sure I have probably said something similar To that myself, and it's and it's you know what?

11:16

I have people like you that are like oh crap, I know that those words have come out of my mouth and it happens.

11:22

You don't do it intentionally, I, I do this, I help people and there's times where the wrong thing comes out of my mouth, but I own it.

11:30

I turn around and go. You know what this is.

11:33

This is hard and and Lo and behold, I stuck my foot in my mouth and I'll add the salt and pepper shaker and I'm sorry that that didn't come out right.

11:42

I would rather own it and apologize than be silent, because that's the other piece of grief Is, the people around us don't know what to say, so they say nothing at all, and that silence is deafening.

11:53

You know I had four really close friends that I have not seen or heard from, basically since my husband's service, and that's almost five years ago.

12:03

Oh, wow.

12:04

Because I'm a reminder to them that he's gone.

12:06

Oh, but it took me a long time to figure that out and it hurt and, and and that's really common.

12:15

So many grievers say I don't have any of my old friends left, and part of that is is because people think that you should stay the same.

12:22

I am not the same person I was before I lost Mike and that last changes, you, doesn't it?

12:29

it does. A piece of me died the day he died, and so you know some of my friends I get it.

12:36

I'm not the same person, am I better, worse?

12:39

It's not for anybody but need to decide.

12:42

But those that stand around and that stay by me, and I'm fortunate.

12:46

I had lots of friends who loved him and him and I and loved me and they stood by me and they know they're like Heidi's.

12:53

We don't expect Heidi to be the same and you know, the hard part with grief is that because we haven't really been taught how to do it.

13:02

What ends up happening with grievers too, is that.

13:05

I heard lots of grief stories. I understand grief.

13:08

I went through divorce. Probably don't say that to a widow.

13:11

That's not kind, but it gets said, but it makes you cringe.

13:17

But the reality is is that person was trying to empathize with me?

13:20

They're trying to say hey, I get it.

13:23

This hurts. I know how hard it is.

13:25

Right they really like it.

13:28

They don't realize it comes across as a comparison.

13:30

But then what also happens is people turn around.

13:33

I understand you know my grandma died or my and, and then Grievers end up hearing all these other grief stories, admits their own grief and it's like you've kind of feel like you're carrying a big Pile of hard cement behind you with all these stories that you collect.

13:49

Yeah so sometimes it's just helpful just to be like, hey, you know what?

13:53

I don't know what to say, I can't fix this, but you're important to me and I want you to know I'm here.

14:00

And sometimes it's just sitting in silence and saying I just don't want you to be alone, being comfortable with those uncomfortable moments, knowing that you can't fix it, you can't make them better.

14:15

It's okay.

14:17

When somebody says, hey, I'm having a hard day, it's okay to say you're allowed.

14:23

So for people who will be seeing friends or family this holiday season, I mean because it's going to be the elephant in the room right, more than likely, unless you have a lot of people there who experience loss during the year and then we'll let them take care.

14:44

No, I'm just. But you know, do you bring the subject up?

14:50

Do you leave it alone? Do you let them?

14:53

What's the etiquette? Is there an etiquette there?

14:57

I think use your judgment, you know, the reality is is grief comes unexpectedly, and the first the holidays.

15:06

The reason why they're big one is because a lot of people die during the holiday season.

15:11

It's the busiest time for funeral homes, yeah, you know.

15:16

And so there's a lot of death anniversaries, or in my, I call my husband's the day he died, his wing anniversary.

15:23

It's the day he got his wings, and, and so there's lots of emotions around that, because those are days that are quote triggering or they're they've got, they're emotionally charged right, and so I'm cognizant of that.

15:40

But I also just say, hey, like I know, this is your first Christmas.

15:45

How is it that I can best support you?

15:49

I like that, that's a way a bit different statement than call me if you need me.

15:55

Yeah, I'm here if you need me.

15:58

Yeah, and then turn around if you're going to fight that one too.

16:02

Yeah. So turn around and say you know, I'd love for you to come to this holiday party or we're going to have a gathering, but I know that grief comes in waves and if you don't feel up to it, know that that's okay.

16:16

Just let me know. Give them the ability to have an out so that if they wake up that day and they feel like they've been hit by a semi truck because that's kind of what it can feel like turn around and be like, hey, I got an out.

16:30

Or turn around and say you know what, if you can't show up, can we make plans that we you and I connect the next day with leftovers?

16:38

So I can, you know, check in and make sure you're okay.

16:41

If you're doing a holiday dinner, turn around and say, hey, would you like to have a photo of your person and maybe we could light a candle and they can be honored at our dinner.

16:52

Yeah, I like that Right, where you turn around and you offer suggestions and the person might be like, nope, I want, no, I don't want to see anything, and that's okay.

17:06

We don't get to judge it. We get to say, hey, I just want to make sure I hear you see you, that you know that we're here and that we want to support you the best way.

17:15

Sometimes it's just asking is there something you need?

17:19

Sure, you know, those little things can go such a long way to just showing up.

17:26

You know, knowing like you know, I know I have friends that will reach out to me, to me on December 27th, and say I'm sending you a hug today, not today's going to be a hard day, because it may not be, but they say hey, I'm sending you a hug.

17:43

I know that this is a day that you know is significant for you.

17:48

Yeah, Now do you and I hesitate to use the word coach, because that's not the right word.

17:57

You help people, though Do you have classes or yeah, so I currently offer a number of different master classes.

18:13

They're complimentary. So December 6th I'm running one on how to invite somebody in their grief to the holiday table.

18:21

Oh nice.

18:23

And so it'll be live online. It's free to anybody.

18:25

Feel free to just to register and I'll send you the recording if you can't join it live.

18:29

But throughout the course of the year I also run classes on what to say and not say to somebody who's grieving.

18:35

I talk about legacy and also about how, if we don't learn how to hold space for people who are grieving, we will lose the legacies of the people we've lost.

18:48

When you talk about legacy. What does that entail?

18:52

So you think about it like, my husband was the best hugger on the planet and he loved to just watch people shine.

18:59

If I didn't have the ability on the safe spaces to with people, to be able to talk about him, nobody will ever know who Mike was.

19:08

Oh nobody ever know about his gifts, because the people around me may not be able to handle the fact that while I talk about him, I might cry, oh, or the fact that, yeah, like a lot of people come to grief and they that there's a lot of judgment around grief.

19:23

We judge how people grieve. We judge ourselves how we grieve, you know, and we don't know what like.

19:32

I believe that judgment is griefs kryptonite.

19:34

It stops connection and it stops people from talking.

19:37

And so when we turn around and I mean it's been five years I still talk about Mike all the time, and you know, being what I do for a living, not too many people tell me that I'm stuck in my grief.

19:49

But I do know a lot of people that are like aren't you over it?

19:53

Yet? I Know a lady who her boss is like please stop posting on your social media about your late husband.

20:00

Oh, oh, on her personal social media, correct?

20:05

Tell me, get bent.

20:08

But that's that's what people deal with on a regular basis.

20:10

Yeah, and the hard part is is that when we start feeling like we're judged, we don't get to share about our person, which means their legacy dies too, and that's tragic.

20:21

Yeah, I believe that, like I mean, the cemeteries are not meant to be the richest place on the planet and we, if we lose all the legacies of those we've lost, they will be.

20:29

That'll be the richest real estate, because people's who haven't fulfilled their dreams, like that's brown says, you know, live full, die empty.

20:36

But if we also don't share the legacies of those we've lost, we will, we will.

20:42

The cemeteries will be what house those legacies, and that's tragic in my eyes.

20:47

So I Really want people to learn how to hold space and learn how to love people where they're at, without judgment.

20:54

We don't judge how people celebrate.

20:58

We do judge how people live through pain.

21:01

Oh, yeah, absolutely yeah.

21:05

I and I just you know I want to be and I'm sure a lot of my listeners, like you know we don't want to be that crass individual and it may be coming from a place of love and we may have every best intention, but At the same time we don't want to be those people that ends up hurting somebody else because we said the wrong thing and that's where you come in and I am so thankful for that.

21:38

And I'll tell you if you're grieving and somebody said something that missed the mark and it hurt, be honest with them and tell them.

21:44

A lot of grievers often will stay in silence and the relationship will dissolve.

21:49

Oh, because, right, because they said the wrong thing or they did the wrong thing.

21:54

Say something, allow them the opportunity to go.

21:58

Hey, you know what I did miss the mark and that wasn't my intent, because the reality is they don't know.

22:04

Yeah, they're doing the best they can with what they've got.

22:08

And you know If, if a lot of grievers come to my classes as well because they go, that did feel yucky when somebody asked how I was, how, how am I?

22:18

And I didn't know what to say because I didn't.

22:20

I didn't want to say I'm shitty, right, it's hard.

22:26

Yeah, it's my person, but they don't know what else the grievers also are navigating this.

22:31

They don't know how we don't talk about grief.

22:35

Do you think there should be more education around grief?

22:39

Totally well and but.

22:42

But there's no one right way to grieve, right?

22:45

grief says individuals your fingerprint right, right.

22:48

So it would be hard to teach people how to grieve, but we can teach People how to respect those that are grieving.

22:57

Well, and I mean the reality is is if we taught people what grief is and what it can look like and the spectrums.

23:04

You know, I was recently on a podcast where, after this show, the lady said you taught me something.

23:10

She goes. I watched a movie recently where the actress was grieving and she didn't cry and she goes, and I thought she was a crappy actress.

23:18

But the reality was is there's lots of grievers that don't cry.

23:24

Yeah, after my mom passed in 2015.

23:27

It was, it was a good.

23:30

It was probably a good year before I could Fully function at the point that I was before she passed.

23:38

I Never cried the whole time.

23:41

I didn't cry at the funeral home, I didn't cry at the funeral and I I was thinking you know, I'm a horrible person.

23:50

What person doesn't cry when their mom dies?

23:54

For God's sake, I Couldn't.

23:57

And the same thing with my dad. He died in 92 and you know.

24:02

And then I told myself well, you're being strong for mom and your brother.

24:06

I Couldn't cry, and there's nothing wrong with that, and and and.

24:13

You see that there's that. That's judgment. You judged yourself.

24:16

I judge myself.

24:18

Because you were like that's not how it looks like in the movies.

24:22

Yeah, I should be bawling.

24:24

Right like yeah, yeah, I shouldn't, I shouldn't be functioning, I should be crying, I should be Devastated.

24:30

Some people can move through the motions and they're fine.

24:35

Some people I'm at a lady who she was like she didn't, she avoided grief for seven years after her husband died.

24:42

How do you do that? She just went and traveled, she ran away and she I mean, seven years later she's in therapy and she's like do the work now.

24:51

It's a, it's a lot harder seven years later.

24:53

Yeah and I was like, yeah, you know, and some people aren't comfortable feeling the feels and grief is a lot of feels.

25:02

Right, yeah, but know that, as much as it's hard, there's some beautiful parts of grief too, because I look at life now in a very different lens, you know I I mean you and I were chatting.

25:12

I live in Mexico. Now I'm 45 years old.

25:14

I'm not waiting till I retire to go and spend time on the beach.

25:18

I'm doing the things I want to do and I appreciate things at a very different level.

25:23

And grief and losing Mike taught me that that life isn't tomorrow's, not promised any of us?

25:28

Nope, nope, not promised any.

25:30

What's the? I think I've seen a meme like that eat the cake, dance a dance for whatever.

25:37

I can't recall it now, but yeah, same sort of sentiment, you know, yeah, do it now.

25:42

Yeah, yeah.

25:45

Well, heidi, thank you so much for your time today.

25:49

I really do appreciate it. I Know holidays around here will be a little bit better this year Just because I'll be able to comfortably navigate Folks who are grieving and there will be some, and and that's okay and I will make sure to put the link.

26:14

Have you got a link? You're gonna give me the link.

26:16

Yeah, it'll be Heidi Dunstan dot CA forward slash events.

26:20

Okay, and I will put that in my show notes. So anybody who's listening that wants to learn a little bit more about, about being what we should have a name for people Supportive supportive of your grieving people.

26:36

That's a wordy. You know what? If you just want to learn how to support somebody who's grieving, join alongside it is time that we can do differently, and I know so many people who walk away going.

26:47

It actually felt really good to be able to show up and see somebody, because those conversations are awkward and I never know what to say right.

26:55

It empowers you and it is. It's the kindest thing to do to somebody is see them at their worst and hold space for them beautifully, and that's all we're doing is holding space without judgment.

27:05

We're loving them exactly where they're at where they need to be.

27:09

Exactly. Thank you for being here today, holly, I really Holly.

27:14

I get called that all the time. Holly Heather, hey, hey, baby.

27:17

Oh my god Good.

27:19

Thank you for being here, heidi. Thank you for your winter in Mexico, and we'll talk soon.

27:26

Perfect, take care.

27:27

You too. Bye, bye. My deepest thanks to Heidi Dunstan for being on with me today.

27:36

I hope that I know I learned something and I hope that you learned something too, and your Interactions this holiday season can can be a little bit less less stressful and more helpful.

27:53

Good information there all the way around and, and I really, really appreciate Heidi For doing what she does I mean she could have, you know, just let it all go and.

28:07

But she's right, we need to learn how to talk to people who are grieving and and if she can help out, then that's a great thing.

28:16

Don't forget, if you're interested in viewing her master class, the link will be in the show notes and that will do it for this episode of the kindness matters podcast.

28:29

We'll be back again next week with another episode, but in the meantime, be that person who roots for others, who tells a stranger they look amazing and encourages others to believe in themselves and their dreams.

28:44

I so appreciate your Time that you have given today to listen to this episode.

28:51

Thank you so much for that. You've been listening to the kindness matters podcast.

28:56

I'm your host, mike Rappen.