0:07

Hey , leader , and welcome to another episode of the L3

0:09

Leadership Podcast , where we are obsessed with helping you

0:11

grow to your maximum potential and to maximize

0:14

the impact of your leadership . My name is Doug

0:16

Smith and I am your host , and today's episode is brought

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to you by my friends at Beratung Advisors . We

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also recorded this episode live from the new Birgo

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Realty Studio . If you're new to

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the podcast , welcome . I'm so glad that you're here and I hope

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a while , it would mean the world to me if you would leave us

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. You can just click that and it'll take you right

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to where you need to go and show you how to do

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it . So thank you in advance for that . Well

0:57

, leader . In today's episode , you're going to hear a returning

0:59

guest , my friend Jordan Raynor , and we're

1:01

going to be talking all about his new book

1:03

, which is called the Sacredness of Secular

1:05

Work Four Ways . Your Job Matters

1:07

for Eternity and if you enjoy

1:10

this episode again , you can go back and listen to our first

1:12

conversation in episode number 351

1:14

. Jordan is brilliant and has

1:16

so much value to add . If you're unfamiliar

1:18

with him , let me just tell you a little bit about him . Jordan

1:20

Raynor is the leading voice of the faith and work

1:23

movement . Through his bestselling

1:25

books the Creator in You , Redeeming Your Time , Master

1:27

of One and Call to Create , the Mir Christians

1:29

podcast and his weekly devotionals , Jordan

1:32

has helped millions of Christians in every

1:34

country on earth connect their work to

1:36

the gospel . In addition to his writing

1:38

, Jordan serves as the executive chairman of

1:40

Threshold 360 venture-backed a

1:43

tech startup which Jordan previously ran a CEO

1:45

. Following a string of successful

1:47

ventures of his own , Jordan has

1:49

been twice selected as a Google Fellow and

1:51

served in the White House under President George W

1:53

Bush . A sixth generation Floridian

1:56

, Jordan lives in Tampa with his wife

1:58

and their three young daughters . The Rainers

2:00

are proud members of the Church of Odessa

2:02

and in our conversation today , you're going to hear Jordan

2:04

talk all about his new book , the Sacredness of

2:06

Secular Work Four Ways . Your Job

2:08

Matters for Eternity and I think you're going to love this

2:10

conversation . But before we dive in , just a few announcements

2:13

. This episode of the L3 Leadership

2:15

Podcast is sponsored by Beratung Advisors

2:17

. The financial advisors at Beratung Advisors

2:19

help educate and empower clients to make informed

2:22

financial decisions . You can find out

2:24

how Beratung Advisors can help you develop a

2:26

customized financial plan for your financial future

2:28

by visiting their website at baratungadvisorscom

2:31

that's B-E-R-A-T-U-N-G-Advisors . com

2:36

. Securities and investment products

2:38

and services offered through LPL Financial

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, member of FINRA and SIPC . Beratung

2:42

Advisors , LPL Financial and L3 Leadership

2:44

are separate entities . I

2:46

also want to thank our sponsor , Henne Jewelers . They're a

2:48

jeweler owned by my friend and mentor , John Henne , and

2:51

my wife Laura and I got our engagement and wedding rings

2:53

through Henne Jewelers and had an incredible experience

2:55

. And not only do they have great jewelry

2:57

, but they also invest in people . In fact , for every

2:59

couple that comes in engaged , they give them a book to

3:01

help them prepare for marriage , and we just love that . So

3:04

if you're in need of a good jeweler , check out HenneJewelers . com

3:07

. And with all that being said , here's my conversation

3:10

with Jordan Raynor . Well

3:12

, Jordan Raynor , it is great to have you back on the podcast

3:15

, it's great to see you again , and you've been such a friend and

3:17

such an encouragement in my life . And

3:19

you have a new book coming out , book number seven

3:21

. I don't know , I've lost track . You

3:24

are a beast , my friend , I'm super . You're

3:27

just an inspiration to me . But the

3:29

title of this book is called the Sacredness of Secular

3:31

Work , and we'll just start broadly

3:33

. Why did you write this book and what do you want listeners

3:35

and readers to get out of it ?

3:37

Yeah , it's a great question . And , Doug man , it's so fun

3:39

to hang with you . I always love getting

3:42

to converse with you . Yeah , I wrote this book

3:44

because you

3:47

know I spend most of my time these days creating

3:49

content that helps Christians see how the work matters

3:51

for eternity . And when you tell

3:53

an entrepreneur or a

3:55

marketer or a barista that their work quote unquote

3:57

matters for eternity , the most typical

4:00

response you hear is oh amen , my

4:02

job is my mission field and I'm

4:04

like yeah , yes , that's

4:06

, of course , true , but if

4:08

the only way our work matters

4:10

to God is because we can leverage our jobs

4:12

to quote unquote share the gospel , then

4:15

, frankly , most of us are wasting most

4:17

of our time , right ? Like , think about it

4:19

. Like , how much time does somebody actually

4:21

spend walking a co-worker through the Romans road

4:23

, right ? Like

4:25

like , let's be like crazy

4:28

generous , that's a good . You spend three

4:30

hours a month sharing the gospel . That means that 1%

4:33

of your life matters for eternity . I

4:36

don't know about you , I find that deeply depressing . But

4:38

more importantly , it's really

4:40

deeply unbiblical . And

4:42

so I wrote this book to help readers

4:44

see how 100%

4:47

of their time can matter for eternity

4:49

. Every zoom meeting you lead

4:51

, every Uber you drive , every

4:53

story you write , every diaper you change

4:55

is , as the apostle Paul

4:57

says in 1st Corinthians 1558

4:59

, not in vain

5:01

. So that's the why behind this book to help

5:04

a believer see how their work matters for eternity

5:06

even when they're

5:08

not quote unquote sharing the gospel .

5:10

Yeah , it's so good , and I'm on mission with you . You know , I work

5:12

at a homeless rescue mission in our city and

5:15

so literally I talk to leaders all the time they're like , wow

5:17

, it must be so amazing to

5:19

get to do God's work every day . I

5:21

wish I could . And I'm just like

5:23

you're totally missing it . And so to

5:25

that person that has that common response to me you know

5:28

, how can they start to see more

5:30

beyond just witnessing their jobs as

5:32

mattering for eternity ?

5:33

Oh , man , how much time do we have ? Uh

5:36

, we can take a long time Now , in fact , let

5:38

me give you , let me give you the quick answer yeah

5:40

, language matters , words

5:43

matter . So let's get really clear what we're

5:45

talking about , because that person that comes to you is like oh

5:47

Doug , you're doing God's work . What they're saying is

5:49

, your work is sacred , doug , and

5:52

my job as an investment banker

5:54

is secular .

5:55

That's the term I hear thrown around all the time .

5:57

That word secular literally

6:00

means without God . But

6:03

if you are a Christian who

6:05

believes that you have the Holy Spirit

6:08

living inside of you

6:10

, the only thing you need

6:12

to do to instantly make your quote

6:14

unquote secular workplace sacred is

6:17

walk through the front door or

6:19

log on to Zoom . Right now , some

6:21

work is clearly off limits for those who follow

6:24

Jesus , right , but I'm gonna go ahead and assume

6:26

that our listeners aren't , like you know , peddling

6:28

pornography or exploiting the poor , doing

6:30

something that overtly contradicts God's word

6:32

. And if that's true and you're doing

6:34

your best to live unto God , then , in

6:36

the words of Charles Spurgeon , nothing

6:39

is secular , everything

6:41

is sacred , right ? I think the more interesting

6:44

question , the more life changing question , is

6:46

okay . How does that sacred

6:48

work you do as a barista or

6:50

working with the homeless , or running

6:52

a for profit venture ? How does

6:54

it matter beyond the present ? How does it matter for

6:56

eternity ? And that's the question I'm really

6:58

sinking my teeth into with this project .

7:01

Yeah , and in the book I just thought this

7:03

was fascinating to speak more on that you said

7:05

the Great Commission , which we all know is

7:07

indeed great . It's just not only

7:10

Can you expand on that , man

7:12

, I just the light bulb went off when I read that statement

7:14

.

7:14

I was like , wow , talk more about that I think

7:16

this might be the most deeply entrenched lie in the church

7:18

today and oh , by the way , it's a brand new

7:21

lie in church history . Prior to 400

7:23

years ago , nobody interpreted

7:26

Jesus' command , to quote unquote go

7:28

and make disciples , what we call the Great Commission , as

7:30

the exclusive mission of the church

7:33

, and I would argue there

7:35

are some really big problems

7:37

with treating it as the only commission

7:40

right . Let me just share three

7:42

of those problems with you real quickly . Number one

7:44

Jesus never told us it was the only thing he called

7:46

us to do in that text . In

7:48

Matthew 28 , jesus said go and make disciples of

7:50

all the nations and teach them

7:52

to obey everything that I

7:55

have commanded you . The Gospels

7:57

record Jesus issuing

7:59

about 50 unique commands

8:01

. If Jesus meant for us to interpret the Great

8:03

Commission as the totality of our mission

8:05

in life , he could have said so , but he didn't

8:08

. In fact , he went out of his way to reiterate

8:10

the importance of obeying all

8:12

of his teachings . So that's the first problem with treating

8:14

the Great Commission as the only commission Jesus never did . Number

8:16

two it ironically makes us

8:18

less effective at the Great Commission . Tim

8:21

Keller did some great research that found that 80%

8:24

or more of evangelism in the

8:26

early centuries of Christianity

8:28

was not done by ministers

8:31

or missionaries , but

8:33

by mere Christians working

8:35

as farmers and tent makers and mothers

8:38

. And that was true in the early church and it's

8:40

likely to be true for the foreseeable future

8:42

, as non-Christians are more

8:44

reticent than ever to darken the door of a church

8:46

. Entire nations are closing their

8:48

doors to missionaries when the Great Commission

8:51

is the only one that we hear preaching our churches

8:53

and when the only people we see on

8:55

our stages at our churches are pastors

8:58

and full-time missionaries . It leads

9:00

those of us saying in the pews feeling

9:03

guilty about going to work in

9:05

the very places most

9:07

likely to make disciples in our post-Christian

9:10

context . So let me give you one more reason why

9:12

it's so promatic that we treat the Great Commission as the

9:14

only commission . It blocks us from seeing

9:16

the full extent to how our work matters for eternity

9:18

. Right , and that's really the heart of this book . If the

9:20

Great Commission is the only commission , then our work

9:22

only has value when

9:25

leveraged to the instrumental end

9:27

of evangelism . And if our work only

9:29

has instrumental value , again most of us are wasting

9:31

most of our time . And so what we

9:34

see throughout scripture , from Genesis

9:36

one to Revelation 22 , is that God

9:38

has given humankind a

9:40

dual vocation , not

9:42

one commission , but two the

9:44

Great Commission to make disciples that we see in

9:47

Matthew 28, . And the

9:49

first commission that we see in

9:51

Genesis one and throughline all

9:53

the way to Revelation 22 , simply

9:56

to make culture and make

9:58

this world more useful for

10:00

other human beings' benefit and

10:03

enjoyment . And once you grasp that

10:05

, that , this dual vocation

10:07

, the Great and First Commissions now I can start

10:09

to understand how 100%

10:11

of my time matters to God

10:13

, not just those explicitly

10:16

spiritual tasks of evangelism

10:18

and prayer .

10:19

Yeah . So if we're to create the world the way

10:21

it ought to be , to create culture that's our second

10:24

commission . I love that . Now

10:26

bring that down to the people

10:28

that are listening . Maybe they're a barista , maybe they're

10:30

an investment banker . How

10:33

does what they do every day actually create the world

10:35

the way it ought to be and actually matter for

10:37

eternity ?

10:38

Yeah , it's really good , really good . So

10:40

to understand this , you really gotta go back to Genesis

10:43

one . Genesis one , this first commission

10:45

God gave us , is the blueprint

10:47

for what it means to be human . This is

10:49

the blueprint for human mission . In Genesis

10:51

one , 26 or 28 , God

10:53

takes humanity and says hey , here's

10:55

your job fill the earth

10:57

, subdue it and rule

11:00

over it . Right ? Lots of interpretations

11:02

as to what this means , but by

11:04

and large , most people agree that this means

11:06

to create culture and to make

11:08

the world more useful for other human

11:11

beings' benefit and enjoyment

11:13

in a way that honors

11:16

God and his commands , right ? So

11:18

what does this look like for the barista , right

11:20

? Or the entrepreneur ? It's taking

11:23

the raw materials of this world . An entrepreneur

11:25

is taking the aluminum

11:27

that makes up her MacBook , right

11:29

, and the software that's been

11:32

created with the raw materials of this world and

11:34

is using it in a way to try

11:36

to make the world better for

11:38

other human beings . And when you do

11:40

that with excellence and a heart

11:42

of love and in accordance with

11:44

God's commands , you're bringing God

11:46

pleasure , and his pleasure

11:49

is eternal . There's a great one of my favorite

11:51

verses , Psalm 37

11:53

, 23 , says

11:55

that the Lord directs the steps

11:57

of the godly and he delights

11:59

in every detail

12:02

of their lives . Every detail , not

12:05

just when you're writing a check to a ministry , not

12:08

just when you're sharing the gospel with a coworker . Everything

12:11

you do at work today with excellence

12:13

and love , in a godly way

12:15

and accordance with God's commands , brings

12:18

God pleasure . So how does that work matter for eternity

12:20

? Well , his pleasure is eternal . He

12:22

will remember these things . I think they'll fuel

12:25

our conversations with the risen

12:27

Christ in heaven . Right

12:29

, that's how this matters for eternity .

12:32

Yeah , I wanted to ask more of your eternal perspective

12:34

on this , about our last , our

12:36

work outlasting our lives

12:39

. You know the famous quote in Gladiator what we do in life

12:41

will echo in eternity . Talk

12:44

more about that . What do you think about ? Do you think

12:46

we'll work in heaven , and how our

12:48

work and the things we do at the time we have here

12:50

matter , then .

12:51

Yeah . So , man , we

12:54

could do a whole episode on

12:58

a theology of heaven . I

13:00

think most people spend more

13:02

time thinking about a one

13:05

week vacation than they do thinking about

13:07

eternity , and

13:09

that's a problem for

13:12

a lot of reasons . But when we

13:14

do that , when we fail to think deeply

13:17

about our eternal state

13:19

, it leads us to accept wishy-washy

13:22

half truths about heaven peddled

13:25

by culture , rather than the whole truths

13:27

that we find in scripture , and

13:29

I actually dedicated an entire chapter of

13:31

the sacredness of secular work to

13:33

dispelling these half truths about

13:36

heaven . One of them is

13:38

that earth is our temporary home . Right

13:40

, that's kind of true , in the sense

13:43

that earth as we know it today is

13:45

our temporary home

13:47

. The whole truth is that this earth

13:49

is our temporary home until God

13:52

makes it perfect again , and it is our perfect and

13:54

permanent home . You allude to another one

13:56

. There's this half truth running around the church today

13:58

that we will worship for

14:00

eternity . It leads people to

14:03

have this caricature of heaven

14:05

as a glorified retirement home in the clouds

14:08

where all we do is strung a

14:10

harp and lyre for ever and ever . That's

14:13

not biblical at all

14:15

. Let me read you an excerpt

14:17

from one passage in Isaiah , chapter 65

14:19

. It's one of the most hopeful things in scripture , especially

14:21

if you love your job , but even if you hate

14:23

it . Isaiah says see

14:25

, I will create a new heavens and a new earth

14:27

. This is God talking through Isaiah I will create new heavens

14:30

and new earth . My people

14:32

will build houses

14:34

and dwell in them . They'll

14:36

plant vineyards and eat

14:38

their fruits . My chosen

14:41

ones will long enjoy

14:43

the work of their hands and they

14:45

will not labor in vain . God's word

14:48

does not say that we will sing , lord

14:50

, I lift your name on high forever and ever , or

14:52

recline in a hammock forever and ever

14:54

. It says that we will work with

14:57

Christ and for him forever

14:59

and ever . Only this is work

15:01

as it was always meant to be in the Garden of Eden

15:04

, right . It is work redeemed

15:06

, restored . It's all of your best

15:08

days at work and none of the bad ones . It

15:11

is work that is challenging but satisfying

15:13

, difficult but fruitful all

15:15

honey and no bees . And if you love your

15:17

job , man , that should fire you

15:19

up for eternity

15:21

. And even if you hate your job , it should

15:23

get you excited because your

15:25

final destination is

15:28

the work that , deep down in your soul , you know you

15:30

were made to do but , for whatever reason , couldn't

15:32

do in this life . That's more

15:35

than likely what you're gonna be spending your time

15:37

doing forever and ever

15:39

, in a perfect state .

15:41

Yeah , I'm curious . You know I'm really big

15:43

on faithfulness . I define faithfulness as doing the best

15:46

you can with what God puts in your hand at the

15:48

moment . There's several times where

15:50

Jesus said man , my good and faithful

15:52

servant , you've been faithful over litter . Now I'm gonna make

15:54

you ruler over much . Do you feel like the

15:56

way that we are faithful or the

15:58

way that we do the work here

16:00

is gonna determine our position ? Not that it's

16:02

gonna be about position I don't wanna sound like

16:04

it's all about title but do you feel like the

16:07

level of responsibility we'll get then is

16:09

somewhat relying on how we use

16:11

what's given to us now ?

16:13

I think scripture is abundantly clear

16:15

that , yes , that is 100% true

16:17

. Listen , if you are trusting

16:19

in Jesus Christ alone for the forgiveness of

16:21

your sins , your entrance into

16:24

the kingdom of heaven is perfectly secure

16:26

, and all of our entrance , all of our admission

16:28

tickets look exactly the same . That

16:31

said , the rewards that we experience

16:33

for eternity are not created

16:35

equal at all , and

16:38

one of those rewards you just alluded

16:40

to one of them in the parable of the minus that

16:42

Jesus tells is increased job

16:44

responsibility . On the new earth . Some

16:47

will lead , others will follow . Some

16:49

will , I believe , be launching

16:52

rocket ships to explore the new

16:54

heavens , while others are on the ground , you

16:56

know , creating the rocket ships , whatever

16:59

that is . We have varying rewards

17:02

and responsibilities on the newer , based

17:04

on how we steward this life right

17:06

, which would motivate us to steward

17:08

it really , really well . I think this is what part

17:11

of what Paul was getting at in Colossians

17:13

, chapter three , verses 23 through 24

17:15

. He says whatever you do , work at it with all your

17:18

heart as working for the Lord , not for human masters

17:20

, since you know that you will receive

17:22

an inheritance from the Lord

17:24

as a reward . That inheritance

17:27

is salvation . But there are eternal rewards

17:29

attached to how we work

17:31

in this life , and one of those

17:33

are varying levels of leadership

17:36

and responsibility on the new

17:38

earth . I talked to Johnny Erickson Todd up when

17:40

I was writing this book . She

17:43

said something I'll never forget . She's like I wanna live every

17:45

day of this life so

17:48

that I can be most useful

17:50

to King Jesus in the next one

17:52

. Like , yes , that's

17:55

the idea here .

17:58

So I wanna bring that back to today , when

18:00

I first started getting exposed to some of these concepts

18:03

. It changed everything and to

18:05

wake up excited every day and to realize that my

18:07

work could be sacred . I

18:09

mean , they say if you enjoy your work , you'll never work a day in your life

18:11

In some ways . Can you talk about the impact

18:13

that starting to get revelation and actually

18:16

starting to see all work as sacred

18:18

what impact does that actually have on people

18:20

that you've seen you work with people all the time , mentor

18:22

people . What have you seen in people's lives

18:24

that has transformed as a result of getting some of

18:27

this in their hearts ?

18:28

Yeah , these people

18:30

and I know because I was one

18:33

of them become fully alive Monday

18:36

through Friday . So many Christians are

18:38

walking around today

18:40

believing that , if

18:43

they're honest , less than 1% of their

18:45

life really matters in the grand scheme of eternity

18:47

. But when you can go to that person

18:49

, look at him in the eye bag . No , no , no , no , no . Look

18:51

to scripture . Look at God's plan for work . Look

18:54

at what he made you to do . You're doing the very thing

18:56

he made you to do . See Genesis one , and

18:58

I think he redeemed you to do . See Ephesians

19:00

, chapter two . It makes

19:02

them become fully alive and oh , by the way

19:05

, fully alive . People

19:07

attract the lost like

19:10

craft coffee attracts hipsters

19:12

right Like this is what the world

19:15

is craving for human beings

19:17

fully alive and fully engaged

19:19

in the work that God created them

19:21

to do . So that's number

19:23

one . It makes them fully alive , it encourages

19:25

them to just keep doing the

19:27

work that they've been doing right and

19:30

view it as a sacred space . But number two

19:32

, I think , when you understand this , I think

19:34

the natural implication of understanding

19:36

that your work matters for eternity is

19:38

a challenge to make it matter more

19:41

. Right . Like all work , all

19:43

good work matters for eternity . Not all work

19:45

at matters equally for eternity

19:48

. In other words , you can have two marketing

19:50

managers at the same company . We're both

19:52

Christians , both of their work is

19:54

making some contribution to eternity , but

19:57

one is intentionally trying to make it matter

19:59

more . How ? By working

20:01

in accordance with God's commands , to earn more eternal rewards

20:03

, by communing with

20:05

God as she does the work

20:07

right that brings him eternal pleasure

20:10

. So the net of this book

20:12

, the net of this message is hey

20:15

, be wildly encouraged that your work

20:17

today matters deeply to God , but also

20:19

be challenged to make it matter more to

20:21

spend this rounding error

20:23

of a life rather than

20:25

to save it right , because

20:28

all of us should be optimizing for the eternal . That's

20:30

just good investment advice .

20:32

Yeah , so in optimizing for the eternal , I am curious

20:34

when you consulted and encouraged people

20:37

on job choice whether it's

20:39

someone you know , a young person right out of college considering

20:41

what they want their path to be , or maybe someone

20:43

who just starts hearing about this , maybe they

20:45

are the investment banker they always thought , hey , once

20:48

I get enough money , then I'm gonna go into full-time ministry

20:50

. How does one make career

20:53

decisions with this , with

20:55

eternity in mind and sacred work ?

20:58

That's a good question . I'll say this I

21:02

don't think God cares nearly

21:05

as much about what we do vocationally

21:09

, which jobs we choose

21:11

, which jobs we take as he does , who

21:13

we are as we do the

21:15

job , how we do the job and why

21:17

we do it right . And I think this is part

21:20

of why the apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 7,

21:22

. The apostle Paul is writing

21:24

to a group of new believers and

21:26

he's anticipating their question of okay , man

21:28

, I'm a Christian , I understand my

21:30

life matters for each other . What now ? Right

21:33

, what does this mean for my family ? What does this mean vocationally

21:35

? And he says in 1 Corinthians 7

21:37

, 20 , hey , let every man abide

21:40

in the same calling

21:42

wherein he was

21:44

called . Each one should remain

21:46

in the condition in

21:49

which he was called . In other words , paul saying don't

21:52

change jobs , stay

21:54

exactly where you at , don't

21:58

change the work , but change your relationship

22:00

to the work . Now work

22:02

is no longer about making me famous , making

22:06

me rich , glorifying myself . But

22:09

I'm gonna go back to the work and figure out how in the

22:11

world can I do this in a way that contributes

22:13

to the flourishing of other people ? Now , that'll lead some

22:15

people on some jobs to quit

22:17

those jobs , right . If you

22:20

come to Jesus and you're currently working in

22:25

a company that's marketing

22:27

tobacco products to underage

22:30

kids , doing something illegal , right , yeah , you're probably called

22:33

to lead that job , but those instances are few and far between

22:35

. I

22:38

think , about Jesus' interaction with Zacchaeus

22:40

. Zacchaeus was a tax

22:42

collector , one of the most hated

22:44

professions of that day .

22:46

And when .

22:47

Zacchaeus started to follow Jesus . Jesus

22:50

did not say okay , Zacchaeus , you know what this means go

22:53

to the office , turn in your letter of resignation and

22:56

come follow me . In quote unquote full-time ministry . Now

22:58

Zacchaeus says hey , I'm gonna repent of the way

23:01

I've been doing this work , I'm no

23:03

longer gonna exploit the poor , and Jesus

23:05

blesses him and

23:07

sends him back into that vocation . So

23:10

some of us are gonna make those calls to

23:12

change jobs , and that's fine . I

23:15

just think God cares a lot more about how we're doing the work than

23:17

what work we're doing , Because

23:20

, again , for the Christian who's living

23:22

as unto God , nothing is secular , everything

23:24

is sacred . Yeah , and I'm curious .

23:27

I would love to hear you talk about

23:30

how you view your work and the

23:32

work that you've chosen to do . How do you view that as sacred and

23:34

really maximizing the work

23:37

eternally ?

23:38

Yeah , that's a good question . So , in addition

23:41

to my writing , I

23:43

still serve as chairman of the board of a large tech startup

23:45

, and so I think a lot about

23:47

that and the context of that . How does that matter ? This

23:50

company , we're building software

23:52

, right , like we're not saving souls , we're

23:54

not feeding the homeless . How is

23:56

that work sacred ? It's

23:59

sacred because , again , this is what God made us to

24:01

do . We are in this tech startup making

24:04

the earth more useful for other human beings

24:06

benefiting enjoyment . How am I making it more

24:08

sacred ? How am I making it matter for eternity ? I'll

24:10

tell you a couple of ways . Number one I'm always

24:12

looking for ways of okay , where

24:14

are we out of step with God's commands in

24:17

this venture ? Where are we not explicitly

24:19

exploiting the poor , but where

24:21

can we proactively bless the

24:24

poor through this venture ? That's

24:26

number one . Number two I'm always looking

24:28

for opportunities , as

24:30

I'm doing that work , to do it with God

24:32

. Right , we talk so much about

24:34

doing our work for God , we forget to do it with

24:37

Him . So what does that mean ? Practically , before

24:39

I log on to a Zoom meeting for a board call

24:41

, right , I'm inviting

24:43

the Lord's presence into that meeting . I'm

24:46

ensuring that I'm doing that work with Him and

24:48

not just for Him , and that brings

24:50

Him eternal pleasure . I'll give you one more , a

24:53

third one . I'm always looking for opportunities

24:55

to move

24:57

conversations with the non-Christians that I

24:59

work with from the surface to

25:02

the serious , to the spiritual

25:04

, because I believe that

25:06

it is the work of me . It is mere Christians

25:09

, not religious professionals , who

25:11

are going to be most effective at the Great Commission

25:13

in this cultural moment , and so I'm aware of that

25:15

. I'm working alongside

25:17

non-Christians , and so I'm always looking

25:19

for chances to steer

25:21

those conversations towards spiritual

25:24

things as

25:26

a means of sharing the hope that's within me

25:28

, that is found in Christ , the Lord .

25:30

Wow . Well , thank you for sharing that . Yeah , I thought you

25:32

brought it all home . I want to take a

25:34

little bit of a sidestep in the book

25:36

, which is hilarious , because I encourage everyone

25:38

to have a bucket list . I'm a huge bucket list

25:40

fan . I have a long bucket list . You encourage

25:42

readers to make an anti-bucket

25:45

list , so I'll give you a few moments

25:47

to state your case .

25:49

Listen , I've got no problem with bucket lists

25:51

.

25:51

I'll say it on the front .

25:54

But the whole concept of a

25:56

bucket list assumes that the only

25:58

chance we have to enjoy the best places and

26:01

food and experiences that

26:03

this world has to offer is before we die and

26:05

kick the bucket . That's a lie . That is

26:07

a lie . The scriptures

26:09

vision of heaven is not

26:11

us floating on clouds . Heaven

26:13

is ultimately here on earth . Heaven

26:15

contains the glory

26:17

of the nations . Quote , end quote

26:20

. See Revelation 21 , which means every

26:22

theologian agrees the best of human culture

26:24

. It also includes the best food

26:27

. See the book of Isaiah that talks about the feast

26:29

that we're going to experience on the New Earth Right . So

26:32

once we replace some of these half truths about heaven peddled by

26:34

culture with whole truths that we see in scripture , we

26:37

see that we're going to have all eternity to enjoy

26:39

the best food and experiences and

26:41

places that this world has to

26:43

offer . And to go back to what we talked about a few

26:45

minutes ago , scripture also

26:47

makes clear that you and I are going to have

26:49

different levels of rewards for

26:51

eternity . And so , for that reason , and

26:54

because those rewards are almost always

26:56

attached to sacrifices that

26:58

we make in the present , yeah

27:01

, I think more Christians need to be building

27:03

these anti bucket lists , these catalogs

27:05

of things that I'm going to strive not

27:07

to do on this side of eternity so

27:10

that I can accumulate as many eternal

27:12

rewards as possible . Let me make this real , concrete . Let

27:14

me give a personal example .

27:15

Yeah .

27:18

Um , I love great

27:20

cities . I love my hometown

27:22

of Tampa , florida , but it's not a world class city . I

27:24

love Washington DC . I love London

27:27

, right , and nothing fuels my

27:29

soul more than great cities , and

27:31

I would love nothing more

27:33

than to live in an urban flat in

27:36

London with my family , right ? So

27:39

why don't I do that ? Why do I choose

27:41

to remain here in Tampa ? Well , for a

27:43

lot of reasons , but one of them is

27:45

that my wife and I have parents

27:48

who are not getting any younger they're reaching

27:50

their seventies and

27:52

we're within a 10 mile radius of

27:54

all of them . We want to be here in Tampa

27:56

to care for them as they get older . Now

27:59

, listen , I'm a selfish prick sometimes

28:01

, right , that's a massive sacrifice

28:03

for me personally Right . Yeah

28:05

, and if I'm living my life for

28:07

this life alone , man , move

28:09

our family to London would be at the top of my bucket

28:12

list . But knowing that heaven is

28:14

ultimately here on earth and

28:16

that I'm going to have all eternity to explore

28:19

a perfect London

28:21

and the greatest city of all time , the new Jerusalem

28:23

, I put moved to London on my

28:25

anti bucket list because the apostle

28:27

Paul tells me in Ephesians six that the Lord

28:30

will reward me for whatever

28:32

good I do in this life

28:34

. Well , will that include an urban flat in

28:37

London , in the new Jerusalem ? I don't know . And

28:39

listen , I'm not saying if . If you've got moved

28:41

to London on your bucket list , that's wrong . I'm

28:44

just convicted that for me it is wrong and

28:46

so it's on my anti bucket list and I'm trusting

28:49

. Based on the promises I see

28:51

about eternal rewards , based on what

28:53

scripture says about the unbelievable

28:57

reality of the new earth and how epic

28:59

it's going to be , I'm okay putting on

29:01

the anti bucket list and sacrificing that right now

29:03

.

29:04

No , that's so good . And , to be honest , that really challenged me

29:06

because I am the guy of like we got to do it all and

29:09

and again . You do sometimes have the viewpoint of heaven

29:11

like , hey , you know what's that ? And

29:13

Jesus said it's paradise . So who even knows

29:15

? You can't even imagine what that would be like . But

29:17

that really challenges me because it is like , hey

29:19

, this isn't all there is and

29:21

we can't even imagine what kind of bucket list things

29:24

will be able to do . The

29:26

other thing I want you to talk about we talked about this a little

29:28

bit in our conversation last time

29:30

. But you know , you said , when someone starts

29:32

getting ahold of seeing work as sacred

29:34

, they become fully alive . And unfortunately

29:37

well , fortunately , because of your work , people

29:39

are getting that revelation . But oftentimes it's not till

29:41

later in life that we hear stuff like

29:43

you're writing . I know for me , I was probably 26

29:46

, 27 when I started getting exposed to that . But

29:48

now , once we are , we have an opportunity

29:50

to share that with our children , if we have

29:52

young kids . I have four kids under seven and

29:55

you wrote a kids book which I would love for you to pitch

29:57

again , because I probably read as my kids at least twice

29:59

a month . It's one of our favorites in our household

30:01

. But talk to parents again

30:03

about getting the subject of sacredness of work into

30:05

their kids because , by the way , it's

30:08

so important because our kids hear

30:10

so many negative messages about work

30:13

, sometimes from their parents .

30:14

If we're honest , right . Take

30:18

stock of what you've

30:21

said about your work and your boss

30:23

, our underkids in the last week

30:25

and put that in the positive negative column and check

30:27

that out . But also because

30:30

we just don't have this biblical

30:32

story of work and so I wrote this kids book

30:34

, called the creator and you , to

30:37

help my kids see in less than three

30:39

minutes what God's plan

30:41

for work was in the beginning . You

30:45

know it centers around the Genesis

30:47

one account , which I've read

30:49

a dozen children's books to

30:51

my kids on Genesis one . They're all the exact

30:53

same right . God created this on day one , that

30:56

on day two , day three , four , five , six , the end . And

30:58

they drive me bonkers because the sixth day was

31:00

not the end of creation . The

31:03

sixth day , according to Genesis

31:05

one , versus 26 through 28 , is

31:07

when God passed the baton

31:10

of creation to humanity

31:13

and told us to go fill

31:15

the earth , subdue it and create

31:18

like he did in those first six

31:20

days . However , you decide to interpret days right

31:22

and as a game changer this is

31:25

the first commission that we talked about a few

31:27

minutes ago and so I wrote this kids

31:29

book to help my girls and

31:31

all the kids out there to see it , but honestly

31:33

, I wrote it as much for parents , as I did for kids

31:35

, because parents don't get this . Parents

31:38

don't understand that , long before the

31:40

great commission , there's the first

31:42

commission to just make more of this world

31:44

. That never , ever , ever , ever ends

31:46

. We just read Isaiah 65 . What are we gonna be

31:48

doing for eternity ? The first commission of

31:50

creating culture and building houses and planting

31:53

vineyards , right , and when you get

31:55

that , oh my gosh , that's a game changer . Now

31:57

I can see the work of a doctor

31:59

, the work of an entrepreneur , the work of an artist , the

32:02

work of a spaceship engineer , the work

32:04

of a pastor , the work for COVID , full-time missionary . All

32:07

of it is sacred , right . And so

32:09

, man , that book just keeps selling

32:11

and selling and selling to create it with you . And

32:14

it's been such a blessing to

32:16

me to hear from parents like I am so

32:18

grateful that my kids get to get this H5

32:20

instead of H35 or 55

32:23

.

32:23

Yeah , and I didn't even think about it from that context . But I think

32:25

one reason I love it so much is it fires me up every

32:27

time I read it .

32:29

So you're talking about the impact on parents , I mean

32:31

man I went when we

32:33

were just talking about book publishing before we press

32:35

record . When I pitched this book

32:37

to Random House , I was like , hey , listen , yeah

32:41

, technically this is a kid's book , but this

32:43

project has to feel like

32:45

a Pixar movie that makes

32:48

five year olds laugh

32:50

and smile and 55 year olds weep

32:52

. And if we haven't done that , we've lost

32:54

. And thank God they found a great illustrator

32:57

who knocked out the park . The art in this

32:59

book is not at all cute

33:01

. It is not cartoony

33:03

, it is epic and will make you

33:05

cry like a five year old girl

33:07

.

33:09

It's incredible Well mission accomplished

33:11

on that . I have one or

33:13

two more questions , but I do want people listening to this

33:15

. I know obviously they can get the book . We'll include links

33:17

to that everywhere , but you do a lot around

33:20

this work . You have email . What are the best

33:22

ways that people want to learn more and connect with you ? What

33:24

are some ways they can do that ?

33:25

Yeah , we get tons of free content

33:27

to help you connect your

33:29

faith with your work at JordanRaynorcom

33:32

J-O-R-D-A-N-R-A-Y-N-O-R . com

33:35

, including a weekly podcast called

33:37

the Mere Christians podcast that explores how the

33:39

gospel shaping the work of Mere Christians out in the world those

33:41

of us who aren't religious professionals

33:43

but work as entrepreneurs , baristas and accountants

33:45

. We also have a weekly devotional that goes

33:48

out every Monday morning called the Word Before

33:50

Work , that you can get for free . And

33:52

then , yeah , this book that's releasing

33:54

January 30th of 2024 , the

33:56

Sacredness of Secular Work Four

33:58

Ways your Job Matters for Eternity , even

34:00

when you're not sharing the gospel , so long as titled

34:03

All Time . You will not remember it . So

34:05

if you don't remember it , just search Jordan Raynor

34:08

on Amazon or just go to JordanRaynor . com

34:10

.

34:11

Yeah , you also mentioned a subject in the book

34:13

. You argue that Christians don't grow

34:16

the kingdom of God , but we can scratch

34:18

off glimpses of it . Talk more about

34:20

that . It's fascinating .

34:23

Yeah , I'm referring to the scratch

34:25

off paper that our kids

34:27

love that makes my

34:29

house covered in black residue . I'm

34:31

not talking about gambling scratch off , so please don't

34:34

send me your angry emails . You

34:36

know , on the surface these

34:39

scratch offs look like dull pieces of black

34:41

paper , but when our kids rub the surface with

34:43

a stylus or with a quarter or whatever , the

34:46

thin dark veil fades away and

34:48

it reveals this beautiful picture on the

34:50

other side . That's the best

34:53

picture I've ever seen of what

34:55

our work has the power to do . Today

34:57

. Through our jobs , we can

34:59

serve as a stylus of sorts

35:02

, scratching off the darkness of

35:04

this world , anything that doesn't belong

35:06

in the eternal kingdom of God , and revealing

35:08

glimpses of what does belong

35:10

on the other side . Let me give you a few examples

35:13

. Make this a little more practical . When

35:16

you , as an attorney , fight

35:19

for justice in the courts , you're

35:22

scratching off a glimpse of the

35:24

day when the God of justice

35:26

will reign supreme here

35:29

on earth CISA , chapter 30 . When

35:32

let's take a different vocation that the

35:34

world deems as useless but God does not

35:36

. Let's say you're a hairstylist and

35:40

you're working every day just to create beauty with your

35:42

clients , you're scratching off a day

35:44

, a glimpse of the day when God's

35:46

beauty abundant

35:49

, senseless beauty , will

35:52

abound CIR 21 . When you , as an

35:54

executive , work without

35:57

fear in the face of insane

35:59

challenges , when the rest of your team is anxious

36:01

and worried about everything , you're scratching

36:04

off a glimpse of the day when anxiety

36:06

will be no more . You're rubbing off

36:08

more of that scratch

36:10

off and giving people a glimpse of

36:12

something eternal and true .

36:15

Come on , keep preaching , Go all

36:17

day man . Yeah well , I will just leave this

36:20

open-ended as we start to wrap . But anything else you want

36:22

to leave leaders with or anything else you want to say around

36:24

the subject that would add value , yeah , I'll

36:26

say this .

36:28

We've been talking a lot about how much our work matters to

36:31

God , and it does . The

36:34

story of scripture is that work is a

36:36

good , god-ordained

36:38

thing , but nothing

36:42

but Jesus . Jesus is an ultimately

36:45

good thing . Our

36:47

work matters deeply to God , but

36:49

at the end of the day , until

36:51

Christ comes and makes all things new , including

36:53

the world of work , even if you have a dream

36:55

job , work's gonna disappoint you . The

36:58

ultimate good is found in Christ

37:01

alone . So embrace the goodness

37:03

of work , embrace the eternal significance of

37:05

work , but let's not make

37:07

work an idol . That

37:10

is the supremely important thing

37:12

in our life . I think that's the danger in

37:15

this . Your work matters . Conversation is

37:17

that we treat this good , created

37:20

thing of work as

37:22

an ultimate thing . The creator is the

37:24

ultimate thing , not the created thing of

37:26

work , as good and as wonderful as it is

37:28

.

37:29

Yeah well , jordan , thank you for your sacred work

37:31

. It matters . It's making a difference

37:34

in all of our lives . It's impacted my life

37:36

and if you're listening to this and have enjoyed this conversation

37:38

, we'll include a link . But we had a previous

37:40

conversation with Jordan around his last book . He has seven

37:42

books out there . He mentioned all the other ways you can connect . He's

37:45

incredibly generous with his time and who

37:47

he is , and I can't encourage you enough to connect with him . Thanks

37:50

again , jordan . I look forward to doing this again sometime

37:52

. Thanks , doug . Well , hey , leader , thank you so much

37:54

for listening to my conversation with Jordan Raynor . I hope

37:56

that you enjoyed it as much as I did . You can find

37:58

ways to connect with him and links to everything that we

38:00

discussed in the show notes at l3leadership . org/407

38:04

. And , as always , I like to end every episode

38:06

with a quote , and today I'll quote Patrick Bet David

38:08

, who said this . He said you are one right

38:10

formula away from changing

38:12

your life . I've been thinking about that all the time

38:14

and thinking about what formulas I can use in

38:16

each area of my life to maximize the impact of them

38:19

. So I hope you enjoyed this episode . Know

38:21

that , my wife Laura and I love you , we believe in you and

38:23

I say it every episode . But don't quit . Keep

38:25

leading . The world desperately needs your

38:28

leadership . We'll talk to you next episode .