0:07

Hey , leader , and welcome to another episode of the L3

0:09

Leadership Podcast , where we are obsessed with helping

0:11

you grow to your maximum potential and to maximize

0:14

the impact of your leadership . My name

0:16

is Doug Smith and I am your host , and today's

0:18

episode is brought to you by my friends at Beratung

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live from the new reiturn . com studio . If

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Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you listen

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to podcasts through , that really does help us to

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grow our audience and reach more leaders , so

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thank you in advance for that . Well , leader , in this

0:50

week's episode of the podcast , we're going to re-air

0:52

our top listen to episode of 2023

0:54

, which was my conversation with Jamie Winship , and

0:57

this episode impacted so many people . I'm

0:59

still getting texts and emails all the time saying

1:01

wow , that was so powerful . Thank you so much for sharing

1:03

that . So if you haven't listened to it , you are in

1:05

for a treat , and even if you have , I encourage you

1:07

to listen to it again , because there's so much

1:10

wisdom in this . If you're unfamiliar

1:12

with Jamie , let me just tell you a little bit about him . Jamie

1:14

has decades of experience bringing peaceful

1:17

solutions to some of the world's highest conflict

1:19

areas , starting with a distinguished

1:21

career in law enforcement . His unconventional

1:23

efforts to bring about societal and racial

1:25

reconciliation led him to Indonesia , Jordan

1:28

, Iraq , Palestine , Israel and back

1:30

to the US . He has

1:32

worked with leaders in a variety of

1:34

sectors , from police departments to pro football teams

1:36

to faith-based organizations . He's

1:38

the author of Living Fearless , exchanging the

1:40

lives of the world for the liberating truth of God , and

1:43

in our conversation you're going to hear Jamie share a wild

1:45

story on how hearing from God helped

1:47

him solve a crime , why living out our true

1:50

identity enables us to live a fearless life

1:52

and so much more . Obviously

1:54

, this was the top listen to episode of the year , and

1:56

that's why I can tell you you're absolutely going to

1:58

love this . But before we get into

2:00

that , just a few announcements . This episode

2:02

of the L3 Leadership Podcast is sponsored by

2:04

Beratung Advisors . The financial advisors

2:07

at Beratung Advisors help educate and empower

2:09

clients to make informed financial decisions

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. You can find out how Beratung Advisors

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can help you develop a customized financial

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plan for your financial future by visiting

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their website at beratungadvisorscom

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. It's B-E-R-A-T-U-N-G-Advisorscom

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. Securities and investment products

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and services offered through LPL Financial

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, member of FINRA , and S-I-P-C . Beratung

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Advisors . Lpl Financial and L3 Leadership

2:33

are separate entities . I

2:35

also want to thank our sponsor , Henne Jewelers . They were jewelry

2:37

earned by my friend and mentor , John Henne , and

2:39

my wife Laura and I got our engagement and wedding rings

2:41

through Henne Jewelers and had an incredible experience

2:43

. And not only do they have great jewelry

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, but they also invest in people . In fact , for every

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couple that comes in engaged , they give them a book to

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help them prepare for marriage , and we just love that . So

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if you're in need of a good jeweler , check out HenneJewelers

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. com . And

2:56

I also want to thank our new sponsor , reiturn . com and

2:59

Leader . Let me just ask you this have you ever

3:01

had an interest in investing in real estate ? Well

3:03

, now , for as little as $500 , you can become

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involves risk . Please consult the Reiturn offering

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circular if you're interested in investing . And

3:18

with all that being said , let's dive right in . Here's my conversation

3:21

with Jamie Winship . Jamie

3:25

Winship , welcome to the L3 Leadership Podcast

3:27

, really looking forward to this conversation together

3:30

and I really wanted to start with

3:32

you just sharing a brief overview

3:34

of your life . You were a police officer

3:36

. You worked for the CIA . You now have a company

3:38

that helps people with identity . Tell

3:41

us about that . How do you get to where you

3:43

?

3:43

are today , wow , yeah

3:45

. Well , when I was 14 , I went

3:48

to a movie actually and that's a

3:50

snuck into a movie because we weren't allowed to go to movies

3:52

in my family and so I

3:55

snuck into a movie and the movie was about a

3:57

New York City police officer , which I had

3:59

no idea what the movie was about . I just sat in the back

4:01

and as the movie played , it

4:03

just really affected me deeply emotionally

4:06

and I identified

4:09

with the character in the story

4:11

. We call that naming in

4:13

literature the piece

4:15

of art names the reader or

4:17

the viewer or the song , anyway

4:20

. So I just knew I felt like

4:22

that's who I wanted to be and

4:25

I actually went forward at the movie theater

4:27

because that's what you do when you're

4:29

independent Baptist and

4:31

just kind of committed my life to

4:34

being a police officer , which

4:36

was really a metaphor

4:38

and that's important for young people to know

4:40

, that what they see is not

4:42

necessarily literally the thing , but it represents

4:45

something to them that you explore

4:47

the rest of your life . But I knew I wanted

4:49

to be a police officer and whatever that

4:51

represented . So that's what I committed

4:54

myself to being when

4:57

, yeah , and then

4:59

so through high school , into university

5:02

, criminal justice , political science , graduated

5:04

, met my wife . I actually

5:07

qualified at the range my last day

5:09

in the academy , jumped in a car , drove

5:11

to Richmond , virginia , and got

5:13

married , went

5:16

away for two days , came back and started midnight

5:18

shift . So it's from eighth grade to age 23

5:20

. That had been my dream . So went

5:23

on the midnight shift in 1983

5:25

. Got

5:27

into the police department . I loved it . I

5:30

absolutely loved the job

5:32

and

5:35

had a lot of questions as I

5:37

was involved in it , like could we do this better

5:39

? And you know . So I started interacting

5:41

with people and just issues , with guys

5:43

on my own squad and all of that Just

5:46

on a spiritual level . I thought like I don't

5:48

feel like we're making a lot of gains actually

5:50

in what we're doing . So I started

5:52

, I started really investigating other

5:55

ways . What are other ways to think about

5:57

police , policing

5:59

, law enforcement , all of that criminal

6:01

justice system ? And I started experimenting

6:04

with ideas that I would have while

6:07

I was working a case or in a house

6:09

or dealing with a person . And

6:12

as I did , I started to

6:14

map out just kind of another

6:16

way to think about things , more

6:18

a way of knowing things than actually the vocation

6:20

. And as I did , I did that over five

6:23

years and I was officer of the year and I made detective

6:25

and developed

6:27

a pretty good reputation in the police department

6:30

. And then in 1987

6:33

, I got contacted

6:36

by a judge who introduced

6:38

me to the operations

6:40

guy for the CIA . They wanted to interview me

6:43

. I went into the interview on

6:45

a Tuesday night I think it was at

6:48

a bar . Interestingly enough , that's

6:50

where we did the interview , which is interesting

6:53

. And through that whole

6:55

interview which was quite an intensive , really

6:57

well thought out interview process which

6:59

I noticed as soon as they started talking , the

7:01

way they sat I was like , wow , this is an interview and

7:04

these guys are really good at interviewing . And so

7:06

we went through this whole process of how

7:08

are you thinking about what you're thinking about ? And

7:11

then they gave me a scenario . They were working

7:14

in the world and said what would you do in this scenario

7:16

? And I told them I would

7:18

do this . This would be my

7:20

strategy , and they offered me a job

7:22

right on the spot . So

7:25

I went home that night and the next

7:27

day my whole life went in a whole

7:30

, not a different direction , just the

7:32

same direction , just at a much

7:34

more intense level and

7:36

international . So

7:39

we left the US . Actually

7:42

, I went and got a graduate degree as

7:44

part of that strategy and then

7:46

left the US in 1990 and

7:48

lived outside the US for 20

7:51

, almost 27 years , came

7:54

back in the US in 2016

7:56

and started working in this company

7:58

that we now have .

8:01

Well , that's quite a journey . A lot I want to unpack

8:03

there and get into . First

8:05

I want to hear you . I heard this story that you shared . That

8:07

thought was amazing . You've

8:09

mentioned in the past that one of the reasons

8:12

the CIA was interested in you is just because of the way

8:14

you were doing things as a police officer . And

8:16

I specifically heard a story about , I believe

8:18

, someone kidnapped a child and you had a . Really

8:20

can you share that story Because it blew

8:23

me away and that really kind of sounds like put you on

8:25

the on everyone's map at that time .

8:27

Yeah , yeah , so

8:30

. So because , because you know , I'm a person of faith

8:32

and I believe a lot in prayer

8:35

and which , which to me

8:37

is a prayer , is a big and interesting

8:39

topic and we it's too minimized

8:41

, it's too it's too it's

8:44

too formulaic and treated

8:46

as this little shout out for

8:48

help , but it's actually a very deep

8:50

, intuitive process that all humans

8:52

can do and access if

8:55

they will , and it's like a muscle that you

8:57

exercise . So I was in my second

8:59

or third year uniform and

9:02

I was already . I was already , as I said

9:04

earlier , I was always saying asking the

9:06

question is there another way to think about what I'm

9:09

getting ready to do ? So I was trained in the police

9:11

academy to think a certain way

9:13

, to work a certain way , and it was great , but

9:15

it was limited . Which it which ? It can

9:17

only be limited . They can't teach every scenario

9:20

and all that . And so

9:22

my question was is

9:24

there , could I access , another

9:27

level of knowing things While

9:30

I'm in process of something ? Is

9:33

there another ? Is there another way of knowing and

9:35

understanding ? It's a kind of epistemology

9:37

, and so I was already . I was

9:39

carrying a notebook around with me and I'd be in a case

9:42

working something and I would know my

9:44

training and I go to the edge of my training , I

9:46

would say , wow , there was something just

9:48

beyond . This would probably be better

9:50

than what I trained in . Or

9:52

if you're in the military and you know you train all the time and you

9:54

get in the situation it has nothing to do with

9:56

what you train for just all the sudden and

9:59

you got to shift paradigms and all that kind of thing . So

10:01

so I highly resilient

10:03

individual . One of their characteristics

10:06

of a highly resilient , resilient

10:08

individuals , their ability to shift paradigms

10:10

on the spot , which

10:12

for most people is nearly impossible because

10:14

it's too frightening to do so

10:17

. I was experimenting on this sort of low

10:19

level and I was in . So for me

10:21

that's prayer , that's the contemplative life , it's the

10:24

intuitive mind , and so I

10:26

can just go in the reptilian memory

10:28

based system , or I can keep ascending

10:31

to the prefrontal cortex and asking God

10:33

, in my case , what's another way to think

10:35

about this ? So we have this kidnapping

10:38

case . This is in the 80s

10:40

, no computers , you

10:43

know , we , the school notifies us . This

10:45

kid never showed up , or two hours into

10:47

the game it's . You know , it's pretty

10:49

hopeless . There's no real witnesses

10:51

. It's not a domestic case

10:53

, it's just a rare Abduction

10:57

, which back in those days was rare . And

10:59

so you know we're working

11:01

the case and I go and I meet with the parents

11:04

, me and my partner , and the father , obviously

11:06

super upset . At the time I had

11:08

two Little boys , my wife

11:10

and I , and I was emotionally

11:12

affected by it too and I said to the father

11:15

I promise you will find this kid

11:17

which is , you know , you don't , do

11:19

you never do that ? No , that's very unprofessional

11:22

to make a statement like that , expectation

11:25

to a parent like that . And

11:27

so when I walked away , my partner was , who was

11:29

senior to me he was really upset . He's like why

11:31

do you , why did you say that to him ? You never say that

11:33

kind of thing to a parent . And

11:35

I said , yeah , I don't know , I just came out of

11:37

me . So I go and I get in my cruiser . He goes

11:40

, my partner leaves and went

11:43

to work another part of it , and I get in the

11:45

cruiser and I drive a short distance

11:47

away and it's

11:49

fairly hopeless , you

11:51

know , statistically at this point . So I just

11:53

I'm sitting on the side of the street and

11:56

I just say to God , in

11:59

this kind of exercise it's like

12:01

God , you , you

12:03

know where this kid is , like you mean

12:05

, I don't you and if you

12:07

do , could you communicate

12:09

to me where he is ? And if you were going to communicate

12:12

to that , to me , what would be

12:14

the process where I would know ? How

12:16

would I know that those

12:18

are just a series , and I was just asking questions

12:21

and I was just sitting there and

12:24

I was thinking about justice and God you're a God of

12:26

justice and this kind of thing . So

12:29

and this is the interesting thing for the creative

12:31

process , which is a whole nother discussion

12:33

, but the beginning of every creative

12:35

process and every human being in the world

12:38

Einstein , kepler , all of

12:40

them , mozart is you have to ask a question

12:42

. You go through life never

12:44

asking a question , you never create or innovate

12:47

, and but then when you ask the question

12:49

, you have to wait for an answer , like you

12:51

have to , like become super aware and

12:53

search for the answer . So these are

12:55

things humans don't do because

12:57

we're , for whatever reason . So I

12:59

asked the question and then , and

13:02

then I just became super attentive to like

13:04

how would I know ? And I'm looking around

13:06

in this car comes down the street behind

13:09

me , from behind me , go on the speed

13:11

limit , and

13:14

when he goes past me I feel really

13:16

nauseous , like someone punched me in the

13:18

stomach and so then . So

13:20

then you just start putting the pieces together

13:22

like , okay , I asked this question , I'm

13:24

looking around what happens after

13:27

I asked the question ? What events ? Who did I need

13:29

this kind of thing ? Okay , it's this

13:31

car . I feel incredibly sick

13:33

. This is a . This is a sensation . I have

13:35

come to really cherish this

13:37

sensation . Lots

13:40

of guys I work with have different ways they feel

13:42

things or sense things , but they're good

13:44

, you know they . It's like trust your gut kind

13:46

of thing , which every old cop used to say trust

13:49

your gut . So anyway , I pull the car over

13:51

, I cut , I pull in front of him , actually

13:53

force him to the side of the road , and

13:56

I get out and there's just the driver in the car

13:58

and no one's in the car . And I just say get out , get out

14:00

and open the trunk . And he gets out and opens

14:02

the trunk and the kid is in the trunk

14:04

of the car . And so

14:06

you know , all three of us me

14:08

, the guy , the driver and the kid were astounded

14:10

at what happened . We all just kind of stood there and

14:13

shocked . The kid was okay , and

14:16

but like for me , I

14:18

was like , oh my gosh , there's

14:21

more ways of knowing things than what

14:23

we think like that was more

14:25

the thought . This is not a guarantee

14:28

, you know . This is not like magic

14:30

or a formula or all that , but it

14:32

is God showing me there are ways of knowing

14:34

things that you

14:37

don't know , but you can know like

14:39

they're knowable , and so you

14:41

know . I call the detective . They came

14:44

and you know , the guy confessed

14:46

and all that , and then the detective

14:48

said to me what was your probable

14:51

cause for pulling this car over ? Because

14:53

you got to be able to testify in court

14:55

why you pulled them over . And I said well

14:57

, I was praying . And he said no , no

14:59

, no , no . And

15:01

this is the other thing about the creative process . If

15:03

you work through this intuitive

15:05

creative process and you don't

15:08

have a way of explaining

15:10

it or demonstrating it to a world

15:12

that doesn't believe in that process , then

15:14

it's of no value . Right

15:17

, it's just in my head or In

15:20

, but I can't go into a courtroom

15:22

and explain to a jury

15:24

my process that makes sense

15:26

to another human being . It's of no value

15:28

. And unfortunately , this is what happens

15:31

with prayer and ideas there . It gets to

15:33

be this way . God told me , or I had

15:35

this thought and like , well , practically , let's work

15:37

it out and you can't , then

15:40

yeah , that's , it's

15:42

actually . It's actually not the creative

15:44

process . So like , if Einstein can't

15:46

write down the theory of relativity in

15:49

a paper that other mathematicians can read

15:51

and go , wow , it's crazy , but he's actually right

15:53

. Or Mozart can't take the symphony

15:55

that he can hear in his head and write every

15:57

note for the clarinets which Mozart

16:00

called tedious , then

16:02

we can't hear what he hears , and

16:04

so that's important for a believer , it's

16:06

got to go from up here down

16:08

through and out and back at

16:10

the profit says that you have to write it down

16:13

so men can read it and

16:15

run with it . They have to be

16:17

able to use what happened . So

16:20

, yeah , so I was off through the year for that

16:22

and and that got

16:24

that got me going right . That got me

16:26

like , wow , what can

16:29

we do that ? What's possible ?

16:32

Yeah , a few things I want to untap , just because you

16:34

just mentioned it . You talked about

16:36

hey , saying you heard from God

16:38

or you prayed what it flow . How have you

16:40

because you can't communicate like that in that

16:42

that role how have you , as a believer

16:44

, learn to communicate practically , because

16:47

I think a lot of people struggle with that ?

16:49

Well , I talk about what I mean . I just did this the other night

16:51

with a group . It's interesting . So I just talk about the

16:53

. The human mind . It's like incredible

16:56

, and I read a great book

16:58

a long time ago called the biology of transcendence

17:00

, written by an educator . It's talking about

17:02

the biology of a human being is to

17:05

ascend and transcend . That's how

17:07

humans are made . The fact

17:09

that we don't do it is is

17:11

abnormal . That we live these sort

17:14

of rational , imitative

17:17

, compulsive repetition lives is

17:19

counter to being human . So when I'm

17:21

talking about , like

17:23

when I would have to train a rookie police officer

17:26

and how I was doing what I was doing , I had

17:28

to be able to explain it to him . And so

17:30

I talk about the intuitive mind , I say a thought

17:32

begins down here . It's

17:34

a thought about relationship to a situation

17:36

. It's always . Humans are always . Their most

17:38

basic instinct is attachment . So

17:41

whatever scenario you're in , you're going to try and attach

17:43

to it in some way than the assessment centers , the

17:45

amygdala and that's the library of your

17:47

brain going . You know , we've experienced

17:49

something like this before and either we're going to go ahead

17:52

or we're not going to go ahead , and most of the time it's

17:54

we're not going to go ahead . It's fear based

17:56

. But if that fucking get passed

17:58

, that into the singular cortex , which is

18:00

the attunement level , it's like , ok , we're

18:03

going to do this , ok , I'm going to stop

18:05

this car . Ok , so when

18:07

I do it , what am I going to do ? That's the attunement

18:10

level , all the way up into the prefrontal cortex , which

18:12

is the administrator . It's where you

18:14

dream and have vision . It's

18:16

the only part of them and it only can think and

18:18

symbol and picture that part of the brain

18:20

. So our highest level of thinking , when

18:23

it gets up there , like then you imagine the

18:25

scenario and then it goes

18:27

over to the left brain to

18:29

do it . That's the administrator

18:31

, and so that's the process going on in every

18:33

human brain . The problem is , most of us shut

18:36

it down in the assessment center every

18:38

sixth of a second , like

18:40

that . And so when I'm telling a jury , I

18:43

had an idea and

18:46

the idea was up here what if , what

18:48

, if , what if this ? Kids in a car

18:51

, right , what would I be looking

18:53

for ? I'd be looking for a loan driver , you know

18:55

that's . And then this is my process . And then

18:57

how would I ? Why would I stop

18:59

that car ? Because it was in this neighborhood

19:01

and this incident and this was

19:04

what this is what I felt like

19:06

and my probable cause was this

19:08

is a good possibility of of

19:10

a car , just to check , like that

19:13

. But it's all the way the brain

19:15

works . So I didn't call

19:17

it prayer in court , although different

19:20

people that came in because

19:22

they would confess to crime

19:25

, because me and my

19:27

partner would pray over them in

19:29

the interview and

19:31

they would come in and use the

19:33

officer . The officer prayed with me

19:35

before he questioned me . Well

19:37

, that you know they brought those

19:39

kind of terms in , but for me it's like look

19:42

, you have an intuitive mind that goes

19:44

way out like this , and

19:46

so let's use it . And

19:48

in contemplation , one

19:51

other thing about . I said this in a public school the other

19:53

day to a bunch of administrators . I said innovation

19:56

has to be preceded by contemplation . All

19:58

innovation is preceded by contemplation

20:01

. So if you want your students to be innovative

20:03

, don't teach them innovation . It won't work . Teach

20:05

them contemplation , which

20:07

leads to innovation . And then I asked

20:09

the principals how many of you know how

20:11

to contemplate or have a practice of contemplation

20:14

which puts you in the intuitive mind

20:16

all the time ? They didn't know . So

20:18

I said would you like it if I would teach

20:20

a course on contemplation . They

20:22

all signed up public school Wow

20:25

.

20:25

I'm in too . Send me the link . So

20:29

, speaking of that . So , man , that was so good . You

20:32

talked about hearing from God too , and you said early on

20:34

in our conversation just a lot of times

20:36

people think about praying and contemplating

20:39

and they just kind of throw prayer up in hope that it works . It's

20:43

one thing to think through thoughts like how do you ? I have

20:45

a lot of leaders ask me because I'll say I feel like

20:47

God dealt with me on something and they'll say , well

20:49

, like how do you actually know you heard from God ? How do

20:51

you know ? You just didn't need pickles last

20:53

night before you went to bed et cetera , right

20:56

?

20:56

So yeah , and that's a great question , and that's an

20:58

important question , because then

21:00

in some spheres , the idea of hearing from God gets

21:03

really abused . Right , it's

21:05

just awful . And

21:07

so again . So , hearing from

21:09

God . So there's two parts

21:11

in hearing from God . Number one is to know your

21:14

own identity . That's

21:16

really critical , because how

21:19

God is going to communicate I mean

21:21

, this is all scriptural , like you

21:23

can just do case study , starting with Adam

21:25

, and go all the way through the scriptures

21:28

and watch this over and over

21:30

again with human beings before

21:32

they understand who they are . They're

21:34

doing things based on how they're

21:37

seeing the world around them and

21:39

it's not working Like . That's

21:41

the beginning of the scenario . Even

21:44

like Moses , like even Moses

21:46

, who has a sense of his identity

21:49

as Hebrew , and it says he

21:51

doesn't forget it even though he's in the palace

21:53

of Pharaoh . He has his sense

21:55

of like , he has some I have some role of

21:57

delivering Israel out of bondage . He's

21:59

got that in his head . He's being

22:01

trained by the best superpower

22:04

in the world , but when he

22:06

comes into the scenario of an Egyptian

22:08

oppressing a Hebrew , his strategy

22:11

is to kill the Egyptian , which is

22:13

the most counterproductive thing

22:15

he could have done . But in

22:17

his mind . It's like I'm liberating this

22:19

guy . But that's

22:21

a low level , fear based , reactionary

22:24

. So then , but in

22:26

the , when he interacts with God

22:28

, god speaks it to , into

22:31

him , the truth of who he is . That's

22:33

so important . And so , once

22:35

you understand your identity , your

22:37

God in

22:40

the faith world can

22:42

only speak to the true you , right

22:45

so , and the true me . I

22:47

know my identity and I , being

22:50

in forms , doing so . When I pray

22:53

and ask God a question or direction

22:55

and something , I know my identity

22:58

and I know how that identity

23:00

is going to probably go . I

23:02

know it , right so . It's like if I'm a catcher

23:04

on a baseball team and I'm asking the coach , what do

23:06

you want me to do , he's not going to say pitch right

23:09

, he's going to teach me all kinds of skill

23:12

about catching , like so

23:14

when I ask God a question about what

23:16

do you want me to know , what do you want me to do , I

23:18

know the range of how he's

23:20

going to speak to me . I know so , like

23:22

when Moses goes to the burning bush and

23:25

has that intuitive , high

23:27

level encounter with God . In

23:29

the symbol and the metaphor of the burning bush

23:31

, basically , god says to him I didn't

23:33

create you to be a shepherd . I'm not here

23:35

to give you shepherding advice . I'm

23:38

here to talk to the deliverer

23:40

of nations . That's who I came to

23:42

talk to and everything I say to you will

23:44

be related to that identity . So

23:46

it just narrows the scope of

23:50

the range of what you're going to hear . And

23:52

when you hear from

23:54

God in your identity , it

23:56

won't violate scripture , it won't go

23:59

outside of scripture . It will

24:01

energize you , it will

24:03

fill you with love , joy

24:05

, peace , patience , goodness , kindness , gentleness

24:07

and it will make sense to you . I

24:09

always ask people , when they say I heard God say does

24:12

that make any sense to you ? Does that make sense to you ? Does

24:14

that make sense that God would say that to you ? Like

24:17

if God came to me and said join the NBA , I would

24:19

be like that's probably not him

24:21

. Right , it's not that complicated . It's not

24:23

that complicated and it

24:25

should make sense to you . And if it doesn't make sense , you need

24:27

to keep asking questions . But it's so

24:30

simple , it's so nice and simple

24:32

, and the more complicated

24:34

we make it it's because we're afraid . But

24:36

that's it Know your identity and

24:38

asking God questions . And then one

24:41

other passage I love in John Jesus

24:43

says the Father knows what you need before you

24:45

ask him . The Father knows what you need before

24:47

you ask him . So a great prayer

24:49

is God , right now , what do I need

24:52

? Wow . And then , when

24:54

he tells you what you need , ask him for

24:56

that and I guarantee you

24:58

he'll do it . But

25:00

we're just shotgunning stuff up

25:02

there and then we have ideas

25:04

that come like was that God ? Was that not God ? It's

25:06

like you're out of line . Get in line with

25:08

who you are . Understand that

25:10

all deep doing

25:13

is informed by being . First

25:15

get your identity square

25:17

with God , understand it and

25:20

then start asking questions from the

25:22

truth of who you are , and then it's

25:24

pretty clear what happens .

25:27

Yeah , so the foundation is identity

25:29

and you are giving your life literally

25:31

to the organization of the identity exchange and you're

25:33

helping people with their identity . I

25:35

just want to transition into that subject

25:38

. I'll just leave this really really open ended . Why

25:40

is identity so important to you that

25:42

you've decided to give your life to this , and why do people need

25:44

to focus on on their identity ?

25:46

Okay , well , for two reasons . Number one well

25:49

, I get number one . The term identity

25:51

has been totally hijacked

25:53

. So in in in

25:56

life , you know , words are the way

25:58

we have of connecting and communicating

26:00

and if you , if you , from a scriptural

26:02

standpoint , there's a really a battle

26:05

for words all through scripture

26:07

. And it's fascinating to me that Jesus's

26:09

title is the word , he's the

26:11

word . So if you want to understand the definition

26:14

of a word , you need to look to Christ

26:16

. That he's . Christ is the definer

26:19

of words . So if I'm going to understand identity

26:21

or or anything , it's

26:24

it's like . It's so fascinating to

26:26

subject that to the idea of Christ

26:28

. So that's one I hear identity

26:31

misused all the time . And what people are

26:33

saying my identity is , this is not

26:35

identity . They're not talking

26:37

about identity . What they're talking about

26:39

is names of organizations and

26:41

teams and gangs and roles

26:44

. That's what they're talking about . Or

26:46

who they sleep with . That's that's

26:48

. Those are not identities , but

26:50

the whole , all of us are arguing about them as

26:52

if they are identity . So identity

26:55

, true identity

26:57

, is received in community

26:59

, from God . That's my definition

27:01

, that's that's the scriptural definition

27:04

of identity . It's received , it's not

27:06

self generated . That's

27:08

called radical individualism . Radical

27:11

individualism is the counterfeit

27:13

to true identity . Radical

27:15

individualism is self generated

27:17

and it's subjective and it produces

27:20

immediate conflict . True

27:23

identity is received in community

27:25

and the identity connects with

27:28

community . It knows its place in the

27:30

community , so it's balanced and

27:32

it's not in competition . It's received

27:35

in community and it's from God , so it's

27:37

the essence of who

27:39

you are , deeply rooted

27:41

in love . Apart from what

27:43

you do , it's not connected

27:46

to what you do . It's who you are

27:48

. We get our identity from what

27:50

we do , what we have and what people think

27:52

about us , right . So so

27:55

identity is

27:57

the only thing that a living system

27:59

can organize around . This is just a rule

28:02

of science . All living systems

28:04

organize around identity

28:06

. There's no other organizing principle

28:08

in the universe . So if

28:11

the identity is true , then

28:14

the system , the living system , whatever it

28:16

is , from a Amoeba

28:19

to a tree , to a human if

28:22

the identity is true , that

28:24

living organism is an open

28:26

system . It's adaptable , it's flexible

28:29

, it's always connected , it's

28:32

reciprocal relationship

28:34

to everything around it and

28:36

it knows what to produce . It

28:38

will produce from what it is right

28:40

. Jesus talks about this . You

28:42

know , a good tree produces good fruit

28:45

. So so if the

28:47

living system organizes around an identity

28:49

that's corrupted like a cell

28:51

, it becomes cancer , which

28:53

is a false identity of a cell

28:56

, and it becomes a closed system

28:58

and it starts to destroy

29:00

everything around it . So

29:02

when you look at a whole country that

29:05

gets their identity from God , in

29:07

community and reciprocal , it's

29:09

not at war all the time , it

29:11

won't be or

29:13

a neighborhood or a community

29:15

. But if it has a false identity

29:18

and it's living in a worldview of scarcity

29:20

, it will take from everything

29:22

around it . It won't give and the the

29:25

identity will be based in self-promotion

29:28

and Self-protection and

29:30

it turns inward and closes down right

29:33

. So identity , since

29:35

it's the , it's the organizing principle

29:37

of all living organisms , it's got to be

29:39

the starting point of every conversation . Every

29:42

conversation has to start with identity of

29:44

a person , of a company , of A

29:46

town , of a nation has

29:49

to be identity .

29:51

So you work with people all over the world . You've

29:53

worked , you've been in this work for a long time . How

29:55

many people , if you had to put a percentage to

29:57

it , do you feel like are actually living out

30:00

their true identity versus false

30:02

identities ?

30:03

10% , 10% , maybe

30:06

, maybe , just you can

30:08

. The way you know is just by look at the level

30:10

of conflict . Just look at the level of conflict

30:12

. Even when I'm in a conversation

30:15

with one person , I just look at the

30:17

level of conflict going on just inside

30:19

of them . The true identity

30:22

, the true identity . And Jesus

30:24

is the model of the true identity

30:26

, of the human and the true identity . He never

30:28

has internal conflict . There's

30:30

no internal conflict . He's dealing with all

30:32

kinds of external conflict , but

30:35

he never experiences internal

30:38

conflict . He's sad for things

30:40

, sad as a form of love . He's

30:44

he . He longs for

30:46

things , he laments for things , but he's not

30:49

in an internal conflict . Jesus

30:51

is never in a win-lose scenario

30:53

, never we

30:55

. We are . Everything we

30:57

do to us is a win-lose scenario . As

31:00

soon as I think I'm in a win-lose scenario

31:02

, I have to self protect and self

31:04

promote and I move into the false .

31:08

So so that 90% that

31:10

are not living out their true identity ? Where

31:12

did their identities come from ? How is it shaped ? Because I

31:14

feel like so many I mean , I just had 90%

31:16

of the people on the planet , and that's your estimation Struggle

31:19

with this struggle with identity . Why

31:21

is that and where did that come from ?

31:23

Be okay . So I and I'm probably being generous

31:25

by saying 90 , it's probably , but

31:28

okay so , and this is actually

31:30

what my next book is about . So we

31:33

worked on identity for many , many years and we

31:35

did it . We started it as a counterterrorism

31:37

strategy , like can we do counterterrorism

31:39

without use of force or Coversion

31:43

? Is there a way to walk a person

31:45

out of a terrorist

31:47

conflict mindset without shooting

31:49

them or Imprisoning them or

31:51

bribing them , which none of which

31:53

works , none of which stops anything ? And

31:56

so we went after . It has

31:58

to be their sense of identity . They're getting

32:00

their sense of identity from what they

32:02

do , what they have and what people

32:04

think about them . That's what they're doing . So if

32:06

you ask a kid , okay , you're 12

32:08

and you're already part of the Bloods and the Crips . Why

32:10

? Because they give

32:12

me identity . That's why they

32:15

give me a sense of identity

32:17

, belonging , safety , security . They

32:19

give me a sense of value Until

32:22

they , until they take it from you . But

32:24

that's how they lure you into it . So

32:26

we worked on identity . It worked really

32:28

well . It was hard to figure out , it

32:30

took us a lot of time , is super costly

32:33

for those of us that were experimenting in this

32:35

, and it started to work really

32:37

well . We started to see the results , but

32:39

the longer we went , the more that it

32:41

was like okay , that that group understands

32:43

their identity . They moved out of violence

32:46

. That's great , but they drift into

32:48

another kind of conflict . It's

32:50

just interesting . So we , we , I . So

32:52

you go back to God and you're like what

32:54

are we not thinking about ? What

32:56

are we not thinking about ? So here's where we are

32:58

, lord , and this is the contemplative

33:01

exercise . Here's where we are , here's

33:03

what we've done . What do we not know ? What

33:05

do you want us to know ? What do you want us to do ? And

33:08

the thing that really struck us was

33:10

worldview , worldview

33:12

. Okay , so worldview is not

33:15

biblical . People say I have a biblical worldview

33:17

. That's not a worldview . That's that's

33:19

your view of the Bible , and there's a hundred views

33:21

of the Bible . Worldview

33:23

is the lens through which you see everything

33:26

that you see , and you can't see

33:28

the lens , so you don't know what it is

33:30

. But it's a worldview , and your how I

33:32

look at the Bible is through my worldview

33:34

. So we started really

33:36

digging into worldview . Okay , what is worldview

33:38

? How did the scriptures talk about worldview ? How

33:40

does anthropology talk about worldview ? How does economics

33:43

talk about worldview ? Because , if it's true it's . All

33:45

of those are going to go together and Our

33:47

conclusion was there's only ever been two

33:49

worldviews , ever , ever , in any

33:52

. It doesn't matter in what civilization You're

33:54

starting , in what religion , there's

33:57

only two worldviews . I just did a thing on this

33:59

at Harvard , just to prove my point

34:01

with with the Fellows

34:04

program in the in the Kennedy School

34:06

of Diplomacy , and I just said I'm gonna put this forward

34:09

and you tell me where I'm wrong . There's only ever

34:11

been two worldviews . So one worldview

34:13

is the separation worldview and the other

34:15

worldview is the connection worldview . Those are the only

34:18

two . If you come from Abrahamic

34:21

faith , you'll see those two

34:23

worldviews explained in Genesis , one

34:25

and three . Right so

34:28

, and so , just briefly

34:30

, so Moses is Explaining

34:33

Genesis to the Israelites like this is

34:35

what Christians forget . It's not the beginning

34:37

of the Bible . It's Moses

34:39

telling a people group whose whole

34:41

identity is slave . That's

34:43

their entire identity for 400

34:45

years slave and listen . Their

34:47

identity comes from what

34:49

they can produce . Their

34:52

identity comes from what they have

34:54

. No identity apart from what the

34:56

marketplace tells them is valuable

34:59

. If you can produce bricks

35:01

, then you have a kind of value

35:03

, and when you can't produce bricks , you have no

35:05

value . Our kids learn

35:09

very early in life . Your only

35:11

value is what you can produce . That's

35:14

your only value . And they start

35:16

getting measured in production in

35:18

kindergarten , because

35:21

they're in the separation worldview

35:23

, because we hold to it all the time

35:25

and Separation worldview . This

35:28

believes number one in scarcity . Scarcity

35:30

, two words , not enough . It's a

35:32

worldview where there's not enough , there's

35:35

not enough time , there's not enough money , there's

35:37

not enough nice people , there's not enough Christians

35:39

, there's not enough of my team , there's

35:42

not enough jobs , there's not enough food

35:44

, there's not enough of everything . So when we're working

35:46

with people , the very first thing I get them to

35:48

do is I want you to write down Every time in the

35:50

day those two words not enough come through your

35:52

brain because you're Living

35:55

in it and you totally agree

35:57

with it and you can't live in that world

35:59

without ultimately thinking you're not enough

36:01

. You can't . So if I'm

36:03

not enough , what does that mean

36:05

about what I got to do in life ? I have to self

36:07

protect and self promote . Why ? Because there's not

36:09

enough jobs and there's not enough opportunity

36:12

and there's not enough money . So my whole

36:14

life becomes the pursuit

36:16

of my own good . So

36:18

scarcity leads to a search for

36:20

certainty , which leads to a search for

36:22

perfection , which leads to

36:24

self-interest . It can only lead to

36:27

self-interest . The way we know in

36:29

the US that we're dying In

36:31

scarcity is when you have a crisis

36:33

, come the crisis comes

36:36

, co vid comes . No one knows what it is

36:38

. A Culture that's healthy

36:40

, that understands identity . When they hit a crisis

36:42

, they band together , they go . We

36:44

don't know what this is . Let's figure it

36:46

out together . Let's protect each other . We

36:48

need all the identities together . A

36:51

scarcity culture goes as fast

36:53

as it can to the store and buys

36:55

Everything that it thinks it needs

36:57

, to the detriment of

36:59

everyone around them . Wow , and

37:01

we and Christians led the

37:03

way in the scarcity mentality . And Then

37:06

the scarcity world goes to war

37:09

against anyone that questions

37:11

their viewpoint on it . Because

37:13

, because in scarcity you hit , search for

37:16

certainty , and when you're looking for certainty

37:18

, then you have anything that shakes

37:20

. What you're certain about is your enemy

37:22

, and and and . So it's not like did you get

37:25

a vaccine ? Did you know ? You're like

37:27

we're , we're , we hate you

37:29

because you did this and this and and

37:31

. It's like how fast did we move into

37:34

those warring conflict camps ? Immediately

37:36

, immediately , and

37:38

we couldn't tell the difference between a Christian and a

37:40

non-Christian neighborhood , couldn't tell the difference

37:42

. They all did the same thing . Right , that's

37:45

a scarcity world view . That's what we live

37:47

in , and in the scarcity world view , the

37:49

measurable becomes more

37:51

important to the human than the immeasurable

37:54

. That means love

37:57

, joy , peace , pay . We don't care about that stuff

37:59

. What we want is ROI . How

38:02

many people did you lead to Christ ? How

38:04

long was your quiet time ? What

38:07

are you producing for God ? Because

38:09

the marketplace is what gives us

38:11

identity . That's what gives us

38:13

identity , and if you can't produce

38:15

something that makes money , you don't have

38:17

any value . Right , that's that

38:19

. That's the separation world view . How much of the

38:21

world is in that ? What percentage of the world is in

38:24

that ? All of it , all of it , all

38:26

of it . Right , I was just gonna say yeah . So

38:28

Moses is warning Israelites coming

38:31

out of Egypt . This is the world view you've been

38:33

raised in . We're gonna be a

38:35

different world view . We're gonna be a different

38:37

kind of nation . We're gonna be an influencer

38:39

. We're gonna be a light on a hill , and then to do

38:41

that , we have to stay in the connected

38:44

world view . It's not about scarcity

38:46

, it's about enough . What's the example

38:48

? Manna ? There's the

38:50

example manna . How much should we gather

38:52

of the manna ? Enough for today ? Well , we . What

38:55

about for tomorrow . It'll rot on you

38:57

if you collect more than you need . The

39:00

whole story , the whole journey of Israel , is

39:02

to walk them out of the separation

39:04

Empire world view into

39:06

the connection kingdom world

39:08

view . It's astounding the Bible is

39:11

astounding how it presents this , and

39:13

so mosaic governance is presenting

39:16

a whole another way of governance debt

39:18

canceled every seven years . We're not building

39:21

an empire here . We don't want an empire

39:23

, empires of the enemy , we want kingdom

39:25

and an . Israel's job was

39:27

to never become an empire , and

39:30

when Solomon took them to become an

39:32

empire , they completely fell

39:34

apart and went into exile , right

39:37

. And so all of us are living

39:39

in either a separation or a connection World

39:41

view . Every day . Most

39:44

of us Breathe in separation

39:46

. We can't even tell . And

39:49

so when I go and say look , there's another world

39:51

view this is what I did at Harvard I said we're

39:53

in the separation world view , do you agree ? I

39:55

mean there were underclassmen , there

39:57

were postdocs in the room . They're like , yeah , we all

39:59

agree , we never thought about it , but yeah , we all

40:01

. And at Harvard , oh my gosh . So

40:03

you talk about separation world view . You

40:06

talk about empire builders , like their

40:08

whole career is like we got to Harvard

40:10

. Does that give you identity . Does

40:13

that give you identity ? Yes , it does . It doesn't

40:15

, but man does it . And so if

40:17

I didn't go to Harvard , see , I'm down here . I

40:19

didn't go to Harvard in the measurement world

40:22

like that . So that's

40:25

why we don't understand identity . Because

40:27

even when I go into the church , its

40:29

production , it's production

40:31

is how famous is the pastor ? All

40:34

of this Empire nonsense

40:36

. So you have Jesus and Caesar all

40:38

the time . Connection connection

40:41

versus separation , empire versus kingdom

40:43

, right . So it's hard to maintain a true

40:45

identity in a separation world

40:48

view .

40:49

Well , you're never gonna be out of work With

40:52

a lot of work you've gone into , so let's

40:55

, let's get practical and just you know this is a leadership

40:57

podcast and clearly leaders deal

40:59

with us all the time . As you were

41:01

just mentioning , you help people change

41:03

their identities . How can we move , and

41:06

even help those we lead move from

41:08

a separation identity to a connected

41:10

connection identity ?

41:12

So first is just to help people see

41:14

that you have a worldview and it's

41:16

dominating the way you live and think

41:18

Like there were just not paying attention

41:20

to it , right ? So one is just the awareness

41:23

of it . So when I write this

41:25

, what we I teach up business ethics class

41:27

at the university here , and when I'm teaching

41:29

I'm on economics

41:32

and I'm talking about this is the world view that everyone

41:34

of you guys are gonna are in right now how

41:36

you're understanding business . Your understanding business

41:38

in a separation world . You , you're being

41:41

taught business in a separation world . You and

41:43

you're gonna embrace it as a separation world . You

41:45

and you're gonna go out there and do it . So

41:47

let's just pay attention what it is , and I listed

41:49

it's shocking

41:51

to them . It's shocking to them like

41:53

, yeah , that is exactly what I think . Why

41:56

do I think that ? So one is just making

41:58

them aware of it . The second

42:00

thing and this is what , what the question

42:02

I asked at Harvard is okay , we agree that the separation

42:05

world is not good , it's not healthy . The

42:07

connection world view is a better option

42:09

. Will you move from

42:11

separation to connection ? And they all

42:13

said no , really

42:16

, yeah , you know why . Do

42:18

you know why not ? Why they won't , they

42:20

don't want to let go right , they're afraid

42:22

yeah , what are they afraid of

42:24

? that the scarcity world . You will kill

42:27

us . So

42:29

then they asked me and this

42:31

is what's hard for the marketplace ? Because

42:33

because business leaders , some

42:36

business that we want to live and leave like Jesus

42:38

. I'm like , really , is that really what you want

42:40

? That sounds

42:42

so sweet and that's such a empty

42:45

cliche . So at Harvard

42:47

they asked me who

42:49

do you know that leads like this ? Who

42:52

? Because in our world you're just gonna get run

42:55

over like Caesar . The empire's gonna

42:57

run you over and you can be all nice

42:59

and happy and sweet , but you're gonna get run over

43:01

. So they believe the lie

43:03

. This is . This is this is

43:05

pilot looking at Jesus saying don't you know

43:08

, I have the power of life or death over you . That's

43:10

the empire says that to people every

43:12

day . Don't you know , we control your

43:14

future . If we control your

43:16

money , we control your future . And we say

43:19

, yeah , that's right , you do , money does

43:21

control my future . So what ? So what

43:23

you have to do ? When the Harvard guys said

43:25

, what's a model of this , I said , well , martin Luther King

43:27

King junior was a model . Gandhi was a model

43:29

, nelson Mandela was a model . Their

43:32

model was Jesus . And the first

43:34

thing they all said was yeah , but they all

43:36

died , right

43:39

, they all sacrificed their life and I

43:41

like , yeah , so now we're down to the real

43:43

heart of it , right ? So in

43:45

the so for a , for a business

43:48

leader who wants

43:50

to bring transformation and not just

43:52

be we call them chaplains for the empire

43:54

just want to be a Christian making as much money

43:56

off the empire should can . That's just a chaplain for the

43:58

empire . We want to be priests in the

44:00

kingdom . This costly , it's

44:03

costly . But Jesus said

44:05

if you seek first the kingdom , the rest

44:07

will come with it . We

44:10

don't believe that . We don't believe that

44:12

. We think no , you got to play the rules

44:14

, play by their rules and

44:16

so . So for the leader , what stops

44:18

them is fear . So the number

44:21

one thing , the number one excertion in scripture

44:23

is don't be afraid . That is the number

44:26

one . Why is that

44:28

the number one excertion ? Because fear shuts

44:30

us down . Fear shuts down

44:32

innovation is just down creativity , it's

44:34

just down the true identity . So

44:36

the very first thing you have to teach anyone

44:39

is what do we do with our fear

44:41

? That's what you have to teach . Every

44:44

, every conflict in

44:46

the world is based and sourced

44:48

in fear and false identity . That's where

44:50

it starts . Once you're afraid

44:52

, you're going to self protect and

44:54

self promote . Once you're afraid , you're

44:56

not going to create . You won't create . Once

44:59

a student is afraid , they don't receive information

45:01

. So you have to institute practices

45:04

in your company or in anything when

45:07

number one is what do we do with negative

45:09

emotion ? What do we do with negative emotion

45:11

? Fear

45:13

and anger are the two main negative

45:16

emotions fear and anger , and

45:18

anger is secondary to fear . I

45:20

become afraid , I get mad . That's

45:23

what it is and it's happening every

45:25

day in the workplace and companies

45:27

silo and companies have

45:31

internal conflict because the

45:33

people are afraid , they're

45:37

afraid of all kinds of stuff and

45:39

nowhere do we deal with the fear . So

45:42

we don't have wholeness in the workplace . We have fragmented people In

45:45

the workplace . So imagine I'm a police

45:47

officer . I'm at home , I get in a fight with my wife , then

45:52

I go to work , I put on a gun , I put on a badge and go

45:54

out and I'm supposed to settle fights between people . But

46:00

I just came from a fight that I don't know how

46:02

to resolve . So I'm broken here , I'm conflicted here

46:04

, and you're going to give me a gun in a badge and go say go solve their problems out there

46:06

. What are you going to do ? Like

46:11

it's the most ridiculous idea possible

46:13

. Now , if you sent a whole person into those broken places , that's a whole

46:15

different story . But

46:18

we're sending fragmented people to help fragmented

46:20

people in a fragmented system . So

46:26

the key is wholeness . The way to wholeness

46:28

is take away fear . Take away fear , guilt and shame

46:30

. And now you're back at what Jesus came in the world to do . He

46:33

came in the world to to destroy

46:35

the work of the enemy and make us well . That's what

46:37

he came to do , and we're not well . We're

46:43

trying to act well , but we're not well . So what

46:45

we do in our staff meetings ? I've been in this , working in

46:47

this group here , for two years now Every

46:51

Tuesday , full staff meeting with

46:53

our 16 leaders . Every Tuesday we start with what are you afraid of ? It's

46:57

called confession . Are

46:59

you afraid of ? No , that's what confession is

47:02

. It's yeah , so good . And confession

47:04

if you don't ? start with truth telling the

47:07

whole rest of the things just going to be the same

47:09

old thing . I

47:13

mean , you might get rich in it , but nothing's

47:16

getting better . Nothing's getting better

47:18

and that and I don't care in the separation world view , as long as I'm getting better

47:20

. I don't care about the rest because I'm not really connected to any of them . Right

47:26

, I can just go live in my neighborhood

47:28

and I don't have to worry about those bad people

47:30

downtown because , because I'm separate from them and I that's the goal Is

47:35

to get into my own little neighborhood with my

47:37

own little team and the and

47:39

the false belief that if those guys all pairs just not going to

47:41

affect me , which is the biggest lie . Right

47:46

, because in the , in the universe that

47:49

we're in , everything's connected , whether we like

47:51

it or not . Right , I like that thing where they

47:53

where they said the wolves in Yellowstone

47:55

or are a nuisance , so they took them out , and when they took them out , the fish in the

47:57

streams died , because

48:02

everything is connected , all things

48:04

are held together , all things are connected and what they had to put the wolves

48:06

back Because

48:10

it through the whole system out of whack . Well , if

48:13

you have a population in your city that you don't

48:15

care about you like , just get rid of them . There are nuisance

48:17

. The whole system is going to die . This is what the Bible keeps trying to teach us

48:19

, and we don't believe it .

48:23

There's so much

48:25

unpack , I guess I'm curious . So when it comes ? You went back

48:27

to just your basic definition of identity . I

48:33

think you said it's an identity received in community

48:35

by God and so I guess , if I to summarize the way I'm thinking , it's like okay one , you

48:37

have to follow God and if you follow God To reveal to you

48:39

who you really are , and then that gets work . Yes

48:45

, ask him , and then that gets affirmed

48:47

and worked out in community , hopefully

48:49

, of other people who are following God

48:52

. Community is one of our core values

48:54

at L3 and we always tell people we want

48:56

you to have a group in which you're

48:58

fully known , fully loved and fully

49:00

challenged . Is that ? Is that

49:02

if people have those two things , if they're

49:04

following God and they have a group where those three things

49:06

are present , will they start operating

49:09

in the world of connectedness ? And at that point

49:11

I guess I would

49:13

just be curious your input on . You know what does production

49:15

look like in a connected world ? Because is

49:18

it no longer important ? Hey , I don't have to produce

49:20

, I have to prove anything , or yeah

49:22

, I just want to hear you talk about that .

49:23

Yes , so okay . So in a community , yeah

49:26

, so on a good team , on

49:28

a really good team . So we brought a

49:30

team together work on the concept

49:32

of human trafficking . So our question

49:34

to God was can we stop human

49:37

trafficking ? Our strategy in human trafficking

49:39

is to clean up the mess that traffickers

49:42

leave behind . That's our strategy . It's never

49:44

gonna end , it's never gonna stop it . Can

49:47

you stop it ? That was our question

49:49

to God . Why don't ? I don't know why we're not

49:51

asking these kinds of questions , not how do we cope

49:53

with it , how do we stop it ? Humans

49:55

can do anything . It's unbelievable what

49:57

humans were co creators with God

49:59

at our highest level . That's what we are . So , anyway

50:02

, you have a community come together . It's

50:05

. What's absolutely critical in the community

50:07

is that they , each one in the community

50:09

, knows who they are right . Okay

50:12

, and so you have to go into this process

50:14

. It watch . Jesus does this with everyone

50:16

. He talks to . It's confession

50:19

, repentance , transformation . This is the

50:21

circle that we have to live in . So

50:23

in a in a community that's not necessarily

50:26

Christian or based in the Bible , confession

50:29

means truth , tell right . I talk about this

50:31

in the book . Confession doesn't mean you're saying you're sorry

50:33

for stuff Jesus never asked anyone

50:36

to apologize to him ? Not one time . Does

50:38

he ever ask anyone to say they're sorry ? Never

50:41

, that's our thing . What he does

50:43

demand is that they tell the truth . Confess

50:46

means to tell the truth . Your community

50:48

has to be committed to truth telling

50:50

about this . Truth

50:53

telling leads to repentance

50:55

. Truth telling leads to mind

50:57

change , which is repentance . If

51:00

you don't tell the truth , no one's mind is ever going to change

51:03

. You can meet in a group , you can pray in

51:05

a group , you can do Bible study in the group . Nothing changes . I

51:08

go into these groups like we've been meeting together for 25 years

51:10

. I'm like why are you still here then ? Why are you still here

51:12

then ? You bet , if you've been

51:15

in community this long , nothing

51:17

has changed . Like , if

51:19

you are you being , if you've been being transformed

51:21

for 25 years and you're still

51:23

here Like I don't

51:25

know , that sounds maybe , but

51:28

tell me , like what's the transformation ? Is your neighborhood

51:30

dramatically transformed then ? Because if you've been

51:32

here that long , like , truth tell

51:35

leads to mind change , repentance

51:37

, and mind change leads to form

51:39

change , transformation , truth tell , mind

51:41

change , form change , confession

51:43

, repentance , transformation . This is the

51:45

message of the kingdom . So when your

51:47

group gets together , you want to focus

51:49

on truth telling . So in our neighborhood

51:52

we started a group people , I don't know them , we've

51:54

been meeting for two years now . We

51:57

invited them over for dinner , brought

51:59

them together . They didn't really know each other and

52:01

what we practice was truth telling

52:04

. That's all we practice . I didn't do a Bible study

52:06

with them . I said let's practice telling the

52:08

truth together . And they're that made them nervous , like

52:10

about what I said , just like , what are you afraid

52:12

of ? And we

52:14

just and I started you know , I'm afraid

52:16

I'm insecure about the and then we

52:19

just and . And then that's how

52:21

we talked about , that's what we talked about . And the next

52:23

week they couldn't wait to come get back

52:25

into that , because no one addresses

52:27

this , right . So

52:30

they started telling the truth . And then the more they would

52:32

tell , then they would start to change

52:34

their thinking about it , and then the more we would say

52:36

well , where does that fear really come from ? What are you

52:38

really afraid of ? And eventually

52:40

we got to as a group we don't

52:43

believe that God is for us . That's

52:45

wow . Hmm

52:47

, so if God's not for you , then it's all

52:49

on you in life , right ? Yeah ? And then you

52:51

got to self protect and self promote , right ? And then

52:53

so yeah . And that was how does that make you feel

52:56

anxious ? Is all get out . And I

52:58

said , ok , so let's figure out if God's for us

53:00

or not . And that's how

53:02

they started to become mind

53:05

change and then they

53:07

started saying you know what we should do ? We should go

53:09

down over here in our neighborhood and do this

53:11

, wow , wow that . So

53:14

that process . So I've been in groups

53:16

. You know that are better . I've

53:18

been in a mice . Have let them where . I feel

53:21

like you know , almost

53:23

like the enemy is leading the group , because

53:26

the group , some accountability groups

53:28

, just become accusation groups

53:30

. So

53:33

like , for example , if I

53:35

say in my group my name's Jamie

53:38

and I was addicted to porn for 25

53:40

years , I'm like Jesus would never

53:42

introduce you that way . He would

53:45

never say that about you

53:47

because that's the false

53:49

you . He would never bring

53:51

that up . He would say I'd

53:53

like you to meet my friend Jesus's single mom

53:55

. Well , he would never say that because

53:58

single mom is accusing

54:01

her of something right

54:03

. So I

54:05

always ask people how would Jesus introduce you ? How

54:08

would he if he brought you up here ? He would say , hey

54:10

, you know who this is . You know who I knit together

54:13

in their mother's womb when I made this person and

54:15

he says who we are , it would . You would be embarrassed

54:18

at the level of how he talked

54:20

about you . Wow , do you see what I mean

54:22

? We're leading groups that focus

54:25

on what the enemy says about us and

54:28

not about what God says about us , because we

54:30

don't know what God says about us . We

54:32

never asked him . That's

54:34

so good , do you see ? And so when

54:37

people come into that group , it's it

54:39

like does something to their spirit

54:41

. So when I'm meeting with employees

54:44

and I say , tell me what you're

54:46

, what are you most anxious about in your life ? Because

54:48

when you're coming to work you're distracted

54:51

, like you're distracted

54:53

. Tell me what is distracting you

54:55

. So again , we did this . We started doing this with

54:58

school super and public school superintendents

55:00

. They started bringing their principals

55:02

in because of how much it affected them . They

55:05

, public school , started bringing in their principals

55:07

. Then they made the meetings open

55:09

to all principals during the school day

55:12

at the school board office , because

55:15

it was making their principals whole

55:17

. A whole

55:20

principal is a better leader than a fragmented

55:22

, freaked out principal who's only looking

55:25

at measurables in the school , getting

55:29

his identity or her identity from the measurables . It's

55:31

like your identity is your gift to your teachers

55:33

. Figure out what your identity is . Give

55:35

it to your teachers . Teachers

55:37

, give your identity to your students . Teach

55:40

them what identity is and their grades will go

55:42

. So we did this in all the schools in our city

55:44

here except one . At

55:47

the end of the year all of their test scores

55:49

went up , except the school that didn't participate

55:52

. So when people say , well , if

55:54

I go into the connection worldview , I'm not gonna be successful

55:56

, I'm like , oh my gosh , you

55:59

will be successful at a level you wouldn't

56:01

even know how to measure . You

56:04

won't even know how to measure it because you're so

56:06

. You're just gonna let this little scale

56:08

tell you whether you're successful or not . Let

56:10

the one who made you tell you , show you what success

56:12

is .

56:14

What does experiencing pressure look like in

56:16

a connected world ? So you've

56:18

worked with , say , high stakes . I mean you still

56:20

have to produce right . That principle still

56:22

has things that they're being measured by

56:24

. Is it you just no longer care

56:27

whether or not you hit your goals ? Like I'm

56:29

just curious , how do you view ?

56:30

that . So I'll give you an example . I'll

56:33

give you an example Like

56:36

a lot of them , because we work in this all the time . So

56:39

the measurables , the

56:41

measurables are fine , as

56:44

long as you don't get your identity from

56:46

them . That's the key . Don't get

56:48

your identity from the measurables . Bring

56:51

your identity into the vocation

56:53

. Don't get it from the vocation

56:55

, and you can't lose it in the vocation

56:57

. So we say it like this you bring

56:59

your identity into the room . You

57:01

keep your identity while you're in the room

57:03

and you don't leave it in the room . You

57:06

bring it in and you take it when you leave . A

57:08

person who can do that is gonna

57:10

be your highest performer , right

57:13

, because they're bringing

57:15

the true self and

57:19

because they don't get their identity

57:21

from things , they do it with more freedom

57:24

and grace and creativity . So

57:27

here's my . This happened to me yesterday

57:30

from my own . So like I wanted to write

57:32

the screenplay . I don't know anything about writing

57:34

a screenplay , I know nothing about it . I can read every

57:36

book there is on screenplays and here's what they tell you

57:38

You're not gonna make it , you're 63 , you're gonna

57:40

start Like do you know how hard this industry

57:43

is ? It's impossible . Blah , blah , blah , blah , blah . Now if

57:45

I believed all that , I wouldn't do anything

57:47

, because it would scare me , it

57:49

would make me afraid . But I'm not afraid

57:51

, because I don't wanna get my identity from it . I

57:53

wanna bring my identity to

57:55

an idea and write it out as a script . So I

57:58

do that . I do that and

58:00

then I just carry the script with me . Like

58:02

I carry it around with me because now I'm looking for wow

58:05

, now that I have the script , I

58:07

should start looking around for the opportunity

58:09

that God wouldn't give me if I

58:11

didn't have a script . Do you see that ? Yeah

58:14

, it's like , put your toe in the Jordan and the

58:16

Jordan will move , but standing back

58:18

praying , it'll move Wrong

58:21

way , wrong way to do it . So I carry the

58:23

script with me . I'm in this scenario

58:25

, talking to this person , and the person

58:27

says to me he says , well , that'd be

58:29

an interesting story . Have you ever thought about reading

58:31

a script ? Well

58:34

, why did I write a script ? Because one time , when

58:36

I was praying , this idea came to my

58:38

mind . It's like this invitation , the

58:40

whole Bible , is one giant invitation from

58:43

God to humanity , one giant

58:45

invitation , and all it is is who took

58:47

the invitation and what happened , and what happens

58:49

when you don't and why don't you ? And the reason

58:51

you won't take the invitation is because

58:53

you don't know who you are . That's

58:55

why . So Israel goes all the way

58:57

to the promised land . They go all the way there

58:59

ready to go in , and they're like we can't go in . Why ? Because

59:02

we're grasshoppers in our own eyes and

59:04

they won't go . The

59:07

Lord's like let me know what day you wanna go in

59:09

. Let me know what day one year , 10

59:11

years , 20 years , any day you

59:13

say we wanna go , we'll go . But if you're just gonna

59:16

do this , you're gonna work that factory job

59:18

for 100 years because it's safe and

59:20

secure . You're gonna die there , but

59:23

you could go over here . You could do this

59:25

. So I show the script

59:27

to this guy . These

59:29

things work out . I get out

59:32

of these bizarre circumstances and

59:35

my main goal is to bless the person I'm talking

59:37

to . I don't care about presenting the script . So

59:39

this person says I want you to meet this person . I go to

59:41

this person . I start talking to this person . I said tell me

59:43

how you deal with fear in your life . I'm asking this person

59:45

and the

59:48

person gets emotional . I'm

59:50

under so much pressure , I don't know . And I walk

59:52

him through this process . It turns out he's a major

59:55

producer . I don't know who he is

59:57

. You never know who people are . It doesn't

59:59

matter who they are . Would I be different

1:00:01

with him if I knew he was a major producer ? He

1:00:04

knew I didn't know that and I spent

1:00:07

three days with him , walking him

1:00:09

through his own personal woundedness

1:00:11

. And then he says

1:00:13

to me you're a good storyteller . Have

1:00:15

you ever written a script ? Yeah , he goes , I wanna see

1:00:17

it . I said I don't wanna show it to you . I don't wanna

1:00:19

show it to you because I don't want that to be our

1:00:22

relationship . And he

1:00:24

goes do you know who I am ? And I said I do now

1:00:26

, but it doesn't make any difference , because that's not

1:00:28

your identity , that's your vocation

1:00:30

. He would walk me around

1:00:32

the studio going this is my new friend

1:00:35

, jamie . He's the first person that refuses

1:00:37

to let me see us . So

1:00:40

finally I let him read it and

1:00:43

yesterday was the first time I sat with him

1:00:45

and he just went through it line by line

1:00:47

. He said get rid of this . Why

1:00:49

would I not do any of that fear Of

1:00:53

what ? I'm not good enough , I'm

1:00:55

not enough . I've never

1:00:57

written a script before . They're gonna think it's stupid

1:01:00

, not enough , not enough , not enough . Not enough

1:01:02

so God can't invite , not

1:01:04

enough into anything . So

1:01:07

it comes back to identity and hearing

1:01:09

God , right and then . So

1:01:11

then production goes up and

1:01:14

Jesus says he who abides in me

1:01:16

will bear fruit , and

1:01:18

it will be fruit that remains

1:01:20

, but it's fruit you'll never

1:01:23

predict . You'll never predict

1:01:25

. So that's production

1:01:28

is the result , it's not the

1:01:30

goal .

1:01:32

Well , unfortunately , Jamie , we're out of time . I

1:01:35

wish we could go on . I could go on for like five hours

1:01:37

. Hopefully we can do this again sometime . But

1:01:39

if you're listening to this and wanna connect

1:01:41

with Jamie , we'll include links to all the ways that you connect

1:01:43

with him . He has a book and multiple

1:01:45

ways that you can connect , but I can't encourage you enough

1:01:47

to dive in . Just anything else you

1:01:49

wanna leave leaders with today , Jamie ?

1:01:51

Hearing God and knowing who he made you to be . That's

1:01:54

it . That's the secret .

1:01:56

Well , thank you so much for investing in me and everyone

1:01:58

who will listen to this . You add massive value to the world

1:02:00

. Thank you , thank you . Well

1:02:02

, hey , leader , thank you so much for listening to my conversation

1:02:04

with Jamie . I hope that you enjoyed it as much as I did

1:02:06

. You can find ways to connect with him and links

1:02:08

to everything that we discussed in the show notes at l3leadershiporg

1:02:12

forward slash 402 . And , as

1:02:14

always , I like to end every episode with a quote , and

1:02:16

this is the last episode of 2023 . And

1:02:18

so , if you're listening to this , you're likely getting ready for

1:02:20

the new year , and one of my favorite new year quotes

1:02:23

that I share every year is by John Maxwell . He said this

1:02:25

. He said although you cannot go back and have

1:02:27

a brand new start , my friend , anyone

1:02:29

can start now and have a brand new end

1:02:31

, and I hope you and your family have a wonderful

1:02:34

new year . I hope you have an awesome start to

1:02:36

2024 . Let's go get

1:02:38

it next year and , as always , know

1:02:40

that my wife and I love you . We believe in you

1:02:42

and I say it every episode but don't quit , keep

1:02:45

leading . The world desperately needs your

1:02:47

leadership . We'll talk to you in 2024 .